I leave everything about ADHD to individual circumstance and opinion except the fact that ADHD is a disorder. A mental, physical even mechanical disorder means something is not working correctly, that is, not operating within design parameters. Since us humans get hatched without documentation, we must determine "normal" by comparing ourselves with other humans. For example, an IQ of 60 is not normal. It is a disorder of the brain. Saying a disorder is not a disorder not only fixes nothing, it makes matters worse.
On the other hand, that gal, Callista, scares me. She makes me look stupid. And I ain't stupid. Because she has more brain power than I doesn't mean I have an IQ disorder. Truth be told, my IQ is on the high side, all horn blowing and chest thumping aside. In other words, my IQ falls into normal operating parameters. I do not have an IQ disorder even though there are lots of people with higher IQ's.
Why do some conclude that ADHD is not a disorder?
1. Misinformation. That misinformation includes "the medical community is divided on ADHD." Not so. Hate to tell you, this board is operated by WebMD. What is WebMD's position? Look for yourself.
2. Sensational unscrupulous marketing tactics, i.e. "Ritalin kills every other kid taking it. But if you are a concerned parent, you'll buy our all-natural ADHD remedy."
3. Damage done by bozo doctors. Mean to say that not all doctors are good doctors? My mom worked in hospital administration and I'd hear her say, I wouldn't take [current dog's name] to [doctors name].
3b. Bozo doctors diagnosing ADHD for every childs lack of attention, implusivity and more energy than they can contain. Good thing "normal" kids don't run around like lunatics.
3c. Bozo doctors correctly diagnosing ADHD then over-prescribing powerful drugs when less powerful, less potentially harmful drugs will do. Frankly, I never experienced 3c maybe because I told every doctor I have a drug abuse history. I did that to protect myself. Getting the ADHD drugs I needed was like pulling hen's teeth.
WebMD has no bozo doctors and are too humble to admit it so you can't look for yourself on 3a,b,c. But you can and should do your own research. Learn as much about the disorder as you can. In this case, too much knowledge is almost enough.
Reasons 1 through 3c prove nothing other than some people are evil and others just plain stupid.
The conclusion reached because of reasons 1 to 3c is very dangerous because the cause is never addressed, the problem is never defined and hence the solution will never be found.
To put it another way, the root cause of my ADHD is a biological defect in my brain. It can be successfully managed if and only if the root problem is addressed. Don't take your ADHD kid to an exorcist, priest, clergy, etc. Don't blame your parenting or your parents. Don't blame shrinks for making a living doing what they do. And, if you are an adult, absolutely, positively don't blame yourself. I have no recollection of ordering a brain with a hardware defect. Do not blame any of those things because none of those reasons are the reason you or your child or teenager is SUFFERING from ADHD. That is not to say that our faith, or our parents, or our own self-esteem cannot help us cope with the disorder just as they can help us cope with cancer or heart disease or any other calamity that comes our way. They simply are not responsible for it. And they cannot cure it either.
So why the epic length dissertation?
Posts that state or imply that ADHD is not a disorder scare the heck out of me. I fear not for myself but for those of you just coming on board. Whether your problem is ADHD or something else, no one on this board can say. However, either explicitly or implicitly stating that ADHD is NOT a disorder is irresponsible and dangerous because it can prevent people from getting readily available medical treatment that will make their life exponentially more enjoyable and satisfying. Their families lives too. Ask my wife.
Bob
__________________
Bob
The Following User Says Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: Jasmine80 (05-20-2012)
I need to stay away from those threads....this is a very emotional subject for me. I know of two kids IRL that are not being medicated due to their parent's opinions...one's dad is so ADD'd it's sad...he told his daughter that he has the same problems, but "he controls it" Note: He does NOT!! This is the same dad that grounded her for 2 weeks for "being depressed."
What's worse is hearing people that DO acknowledge that it is a disorder, but are against medication.
These people stubbornly adhere to their anti-med stance and say that "we" are looking for an "excuse". No excuses are being made and we aren't at fault, but we have a responsbility to manage it....that goes with any disorder.
Interestingly, with diabetes, a hormonal imbalance can cause raging behavioral consequences. I couldn't imagine withholding insulin on the same grounds. As for "messing with the body chemistry," LOL...then let's just shut down all of the pharmacies..besides, better living through chemistry
There is a double standard when it comes to the brain. No, we don't have the same evidenced based means for diagnosis, so we are at a disadvantage...but just because a medication can be improperly perscribed, it does not invalidate the use of medication for ADD.
Plus, our bodies have serotonin, DA receptors in locations other than the brain...these chemicals are NOT just for ADD symptoms. Now, I'm not sure if the mechanisms for these drugs only operate in the brain....but my first sentence still stands
Excellent post. Declaring that we (the ones with ADD) could have handled our lives better if we had only had better teachers or better upbringing is not doing justice to those of us who have been struggling our whole lives with brain wiring that is truly different from the rest of the world. The lucky ones have indeed had lots of help as children to learn how to find outside structure to help them accomplish tasks, and the folks with parents who taught them how to make the best of their unique talents so that they can feel good about themselves instead of failures are fortunate indeed. And of course declaring that the pharmaceutical industry is the devil incarnate is not helpful to anyone.
Which brings me to kjrunner --
I can appreciate your feeling the need to stay away from these ADD topics, because there are too many reminders here of childhoods where the child was not cherished. Sometimes it's because the parents had bad childhood experiences themselves and have only bad things in them to pass on to their kids. Sometimes it's because the parents are well-meaning but baffled about what to do with children who simply don't act in the way that children are "supposed" to act. It's clear from several of the threads on this Board that even loving parents have no idea what to do with children who either act out (the hyperactive kids) or who don't seem to respond to instructions to do what ought to be simple tasks (the space-cadet kids).
You are carrying within you memories of being a helpless kid, and having bad things happen to you when you were too young to have the power to change the situation. I too have left situations and friendships and jobs that reminded me of being a helpless child. I identified too closely with outside events that reminded me of my helpless childhood -- just being around these people and circumstances brought up too much hurt for me to deal with.
I have spent a lot of time over the last few decades in official therapy as well as self-therapy trying very hard to come to grips with why I over-react to situations like this and have to leave. One of the legacies from my childhood is that I never developed a sense of "self" -- I had no idea who I was, so I also had no idea where "I" left off and someone else began. This is called "boundary recognition" (or lack thereof) in psychology jargon. Over time I have been able to say "this is me" and what is happening over there is not "me". I can now, more often than not, feel the pain of what is happening to someone else without at the same time feeling that it is happening to the helpless child that was me. I can recognise that I am not at this moment being threatened. When I was a child, threats of pain and even death were my constant companions. I am now an adult. A middle-aged adult. I have the power to protect myself which I did not as a child.
If you do decide to go away from these Boards for a while, may I suggest that you take with you some things to think about. First, you are welcome to come back here at any time, and we imperfect people will do our best to support you and learn from you. (We can be a rowdy bunch, but we mean well!) Second, you might want to think about the concept that I spoke about above. As a child you had no power. This is what you learned. As an adult you do have power. But if you didn't learn this fact from your family, then you need to find other places to learn it. This will not happen overnight. Once you are able to look at a situation and say "this is not a threat because I'm a big girl now and it's happening to someone else not me", then you are well on your way to be able to handle painful topics without losing your sense of power or self.
I'm babbling and I'm not very good at explaining all this, but I just wanted to let you know that I really relate to what you're saying.
I really hope that you stick around, but you're a big girl and can decide for yourself what's appropriate for you to do.
I apologize for scaring you. I have good verbal skills, and when I write, I often seem much smarter than I am.
I think there needs to be a balance between ADHD as a disorder and ADHD as a trait. I do have trouble with ADHD: I miss appointments; I forget to do things; I get so confused that I stand in the middle of a room and stare at the wall, trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. But there seem to be positive traits as well; creativity brought about by a mind that runs fast and connects everything to everything else; an ability to multitask.
ADHD is a problem; but one has to remember that differences are not always disorders. An IQ of 60 is not normal; neither is an IQ of 200. But only one of them can be called a "disorder". And difference does not mean defect unless that difference causes distress for the person who has it, puts him or others in danger, or keeps him from taking care of himself--work, school, daily life.
ADHD is a mix of positive and negative effects. Strange minds like ours need specialized education. Education is meant to help a child prepare for the world; and an ADHD mind needs preparation of a different nature than that of a child without ADHD. Medication, if it is needed, is there to make that education possible. Education can strengthen talents and help compensate for weaknesses; and for the ADHD mind this is even more important than it is for a typical child.
ADHD, a disorder? Yes, because it causes problems for the person who has it. It's caused a great deal of trouble for me including, I believe, two years of failing performance in college, followed by academic expulsion, from which I am only now recovering with the help of the disability assistance department at a new college.
But ADHD, exclusively negative? No. It has its benefits--strengths that can be trained; the possiblity that those strengths can lead to finding one's niche in society. The lightning-fast mind that makes connections with everything, no matter how nonsensical; the ability to notice anything and everything... Troublesome, yes; but with education, possibly beneficial.
For someone to have ADHD and not have a disorder is, I think, possible. With training and with medication, ADHD can be controlled to the point that only the positive effects remain. I have not yet reached this point; but one day, I will.
Rheanna-
Thanks for your reply. I didn't mean outright leave, I'm just talking about the type of posts that addprogrammer alluded to. I get very angry--an emotionally angry--whether here or in real life. I very seldom respond to posts like this on the net..I gave frazzled response a rather rude reply to her original post. Later, I realized that most of my anger was directed at another poster in the thread.
For example, the friends that I mentioned..the next time I'm around one of those conversations about "psychsomatic" meds, I'm just going to excuse myself
I am a businessman and a good one at that - don't mind saying so myself. I think anyone can be good at business by simply doing one thing: Never make emotional decisions.
A basic simplistic example: I "love" that $50K car. Cool, all I need to own it is a wrist, and a hand, and a pen in hand. I have all three. I'm gonna get it. You best believe I'm going to get it but not where I expect it.
If you have the cash for a 50K car up the car to a Bugatti. If you have cash for a Bugatti, you are a little twerp that has more than I ever will. I don't like you anymore.
I am talking about spending money we don't have. Why would anyone spend money they don't have? Simple. An emotion just crashed their ability to reason.
Let's multi-task illustrations. Incidentally, I use my actual life experiences to illustrate a lot of things. I also throw in a little hyperbole. I suspect that kyrunner knows that I didn't fit "thousands" of marginal notes on my ADHD form. I suspect she knows that that hyperbole means a lot of marginal notes, which is, accurate.
I am going to use a hyperbole that is almost literally true. Diagnostics is EVERYTHING. Literally true: I spent two weeks, management at the company I work for, spent two weeks trying to figure out why the interface between my component and the master program exhibited erratic behavior. Worked sometimes, not others. We nailed the son-gun finally. It took me ten seconds to fix it - LITERALLY. About 160 hours to find it. Ten seconds to fix it. Does that tell you something?
Another bug took me 53 years to find and about two years to fix to the degree that I feel I got it nailed. The first 53 years I spent enormous sums of mostly futile energy and mental resources on fixing laziness, irresponsibility, stupidity and a lot of other things that WERE NOT THE PROBLEM. The past two years I took prescription drugs and cognitive-behavioral therapy and they are working wonders.
what is the problem? ADHD personality type, disorder, trait? OCD? Call it what you will, there is something wrong with my brain. Brain problems are medical problems. We go to doctors when we have medical problems.
Let's return to emotional decisions. When I was diagnosed, I started looking for kindred spirits. Spirits such as kyrunner and Rheanna. Found them here. These kindred spirits never called me stupid, lazy, irresponsible. NEVER. I found a safe little cove here. I am trying so hard not to get extremely vulgar, calm down boy, but there are sharks in my safe haven. Telling me my medical problem isn't a medical problem is synonymous to calling me stupid, lazy, irresponsible. Do you understand why?
I want you to reread kyrunner's and Rheanna's post. I know you already know what they say. I want you to reread but this time FEEL what they are saying.
The sharks have a hidden agenda that is emotionally fueled. I knew what it is. It has to do with drug addiction. It's tough to fess up and say, "I am a drug addict." I know. Had to do it. I too wish I could have passed the buck on to a doctor.
I can't say anymore or I may get banned and I need my buddies.
Bob
__________________
Bob
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: Jasmine80 (05-20-2012), shadowfakx (04-12-2011)
Let's return to emotional decisions. When I was diagnosed, I started looking for kindred spirits. Spirits such as kyrunner and Rheanna. Found them here. These kindred spirits never called me stupid, lazy, irresponsible. NEVER. I found a safe little cove here. I am trying so hard not to get extremely vulgar, calm down boy, but there are sharks in my safe haven. Telling me my medical problem isn't a medical problem is synonymous to calling me stupid, lazy, irresponsible. Do you understand why?
I wish their was a heart emoticon to express myself here! I would love a shark emoticon for appropriate times as well! I LOVE the shark analogy!
Last edited by kjrunner; 07-07-2007 at 07:26 AM.
Reason: my first version was a little too snarky
Whoa, hold on!! I'm not saying it isn't a medical problem. Of course it is! Look at the brain scans of ADHD brains, look at the way they respond to stimulants differently, look at the studies... it's obvious.
I'm just saying that ADHD isn't all negative; that you can't hate your own brain because it's different and you have to find ways to work around it when it doesn't cooperate. I'm saying, that when you've got ADHD, the whole world's already telling you stuff like "underacheiver" and "lazy", and the way to react isn't, "I've got a medical condition, therefore I'm defective," it's "I've got a medical condition; therefore, I'm different."
Different means you have to find solutions, whether they're new strategies or new meds; but it doesn't mean that people who are "normal" are any better than you. ADHD is a disability; but that's nothing to be ashamed of; and anyway, it's got its good side.
Refusing to try to compensate--refusing to try meds or get help with organization--is about the worst strategy out there, whether people do it because they think they ought to be able to handle things on their own, or whether they're doing it because they think nothing can help their "defect".
It's just about as senseless as somebody with a broken leg refusing to use crutches... Not only won't he be able to walk very well, but the leg won't heal, either. It doesn't matter if he's doing it because he thinks he should be able to walk on his own or because he thinks the leg will never heal and he'd better deal with it... the results are the same.
"ADHD can't be controlled" hurts you just as badly as "ADHD is a character flaw". Either way, you sell yourself short. As far as your mind allows, you have the responsibility to take advantage of all the help you can get, to learn all you can. (Yes, that includes meds and counseling.) Because it isn't useless... You're different, not defective; and, ADHD or no ADHD, you can find a place in the world that's made just for you.
Differences and disabilities are not some horrible thing. They're just human flaws. Everyone's flawed--ADHD is just the flaw we happened to get.
BTW, I should mention that with the broken leg analogy, I don't mean that ADHD can be "cured". Some people grow out of it, but if you have it when you're an adult, it's probably permanent. What I do think is that it's possible to adjust your life, learn skills, take meds, and basically live up to your potential despite ADHD. That takes time, of course. And hard work, and the guts to ask for help...
I don't disagree with you. I've done well with adapting. Neither addprogammer nor myself said that we are flawed. We are talking about the emotional fallout, particularly through our undiagnosed years and allowing the presence of the sharks to influence our emotions.
My basic problem is generally referred to as "being a big baby." The rule-book says, full maturity at age 21. I missed the deadline. Just like I miss all other deadlines unless wife saves me.
I know you did not say ADHD is NOT a medical problem. The ugly truth be told, I agreed with everything you said. "Trouble" is, some of the truths you stated smelt like blood to my carnivorous fish friends. My attempts to deodorize the blood smell means I put my self in the same pool. I hate that pool and want out now.
I'm sorry, too. I didn't want to hurt anybody. Lord knows we get enough trouble from the rest of the world, without making problems for each other as well.
What bothers me is that we are STILL having to defend ADD as a disorder!
Back in 1991, a U.S. Department of Education memorandum very explicitly included ADD and ADHD as disorders that may qualify an individual for Special Education services (if the disorder is severe enough to significantly impair an individual's school performance) under IDEA {Individuals with Disabilities Education Act}.
While the "sharks" - great term, I love it! - may claim that an ADD diagnosis only serves to benefit the pharmaceutical industry, there isn't any way that broadening the scope of IDEA to include ADD can benefit our public education system. Oh, I suppose you could say that the pharmaceutical industry has bought off the US government and the Department of Education, but that seems far-fetched (ie "fishy"), doesn't it?
So, why exactly are we having to defend this diagnosis? Well, I guess Bob answered that pretty well in his original post.
Rheanna explains it, I understand it, still can't control it. I'm wounded. Ever hit thumb with hammer? Same thumb goes on getting hurt by the slightest impacts because its so sensitive.
I can't control it. Not in person. Not on the boards. Best I can do is leave monitor, go into another room, vulgarize the sharks until I get it out.
At least in person because I am a fairly good sized guy, capable of "fire in the eyes" the wise know enough not to go there and foolish learn quickly.
Just wanted to thank all you posters on this thread. All are very articulate and put into words an intelligent discussion on ADD/ADHD that I am just not capable of doing. Atleast not as well as all of you.
I'll probably save this one and refer to people who question ADD/ADHD.
Thanks for your insight, wisdom, experience and honesty!
Bob, I'm sorry you are feeling wounded. Consider yourself cyber-hugged. Tell your sweet wife that you need a real one.
In our society today, it's impossible to have severe ADHD in your life and not be wounded. And the ADD doesn't have to be your own. You'd think that the gallons of tears that I have cried for how hard my son's life has been, the sleepless nights worrying, the hand-wringing, the praying, the endless appointments (with tutors, teachers, special ed consultants, counsellors, dieticians, occupational therapists, doctors), the gut-wrenching fear over what his future will hold and the endless guilt that I haven't done enough or done it right; you'd think that would be suffering enough.
But no. Oh, no. Then you have the sharks ready and waiting to tear apart any remaining ounce of undamaged flesh.
What I *try* to remind myself is that we are ALL the walking wounded. No-one gets out of this life unscathed whether they have ADD or not. Some wounds are more visible than others, but we've all got them.
The difference is how we deal with those wounds. Some come to boards such as this searching for support and, when we get it, we feel better. Some walk through life oblivious to their own pain. They come to these boards to be "right". When they feel they are "right", they feel better. Never mind how much damage they inflict in the process.
God forgive the sharks for the pain they've caused us and God forgive me for my lack of compassion toward them.
I love this board because my interest in others and others interest in me cannot be mistaken as romantic interest. I love it even though our moderators can get testy at times .
That being said, FEEL a bear hug and a big fat kiss on the check.
Let's do a pithy "mask" discussion.
Masks are useful. I won't say at a job interview, "I'm an emotionally damaged, ADHD nut case, but on my good days, I am not half bad."
Masks keep the enemy out. Sometimes I won't let someone in because I don't want them in because I know they'll hurt me. Shields stay up. Couple extra gators go into the moat.
As soon as we start lowering shields, we can get hurt.
And ...
As soon as we start lowering shields, we can draw close to one another, form friendships, support groups, and truly help each other over some very rough pavement, none of which can happen with shields up.
Dang, if only we could have our mask cake and eat it to.
I just had a major break-through that may help you and your son.
I think I just realized root on my emotional issues.
Past couple years a couple key pieces came to light but not enough pieces to put the puzzle together. I jokingly said to wife, Index.html thinks "I'm the man." Wife knows you are female and I was expecting to invoke a little jealousy so I could play my "I love only you my dear" which is true - romantically. Nope, wife did not play game. She says, "I have been trying to tell you that for the past 30 years."
Hmmmmmn.
About two years ago, after not working for about year and a half, I gets me a software job. We really needed the money - believe you me. Think I cared about money? Nope. I says to wife "I can't afford to screw this up because I can't take another failure on my record."
Wife lists at least a dozen significant successes we shared together. Which brings me to my first point:
Point 1. I can't explain it but most of us ADHDers cannot see anything other than our failures.
Next piece of puzzle: I'm sitting on our deck attached to our beautiful home looking at our nice cars (all three of them) sitting on our paved driveway sulking over what a loser I am. Index, it isn't polite to brag in good company. I am not bragging. Nor am I materialistic. The house and the cars mean nothing to me other than I like them and need 3 of them because we live in the country and can't walk anywhere. The disparity between my physical reality and my emotional reality was so great than it even caught my ADHD attention. "Something ain't right here," I says.
Here is "what ain't right." I did not live up to my parents expectation to be a college grad. I thought about giving college another try in my mid twenties after putting away the illegal drugs, but at a very low level, I knew that I cannot operate in a structured environment someone else engineered.
Another instance of above. Back in the 80's there was an IBM facility that employed 30,000 geeks not to far from us. Everyone said, "Bob get a job at IBM. You'll have it made." I can't remember what cockamamie I gave for not applying but the real reason was same as above. I do gloat, however, that the geeks that went to IBM are unemployed and I am not. Cool.
Point 2. I have been trying to prove that I am not stupid for 55 years but the only acceptable proof is a degree. I can't come up with one.
However, I am far, far, far, far, lightyears away far, than most with degrees because I know we cannot stick square pegs in round holes.
I'm done with it. Screw the sharks. Their stupid. We're smart. Just had to get off one last round case I'm not as done with it as I thinkest
Index, I perceive you as street smart. So if you already know what I just figured out, please forgive me. Your son has a place where he'll thrive. He may be a hexigonical peg, if so find him a hexigonical hole. Our society puts way too much emphasis on college education. If you can do it, fine. If you can't, don't. College that is.
Us Americans here in the USA don't make anything anymore. Not steel. Not cars. And software is moving to India. The only thing we make is money. And the only thing we do is get sick. Business and Medicine is where the jobs are. Is there a nitch for him there?
Bob
Last edited by addprogrammer; 07-12-2007 at 11:54 AM.
Reason: Less words
The Following User Says Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: Jasmine80 (05-20-2012)
You are so incredibly kind to spend all that time thinking about my son and writing that post for us. What a privilege I've had to have "met" you.
You and I are alot alike emotionally; we share many of the same roots to our issues. I'm far from hyper (you'll see my picture in the dictionary next to "inertia"), but I am ADD-inattentive. I, too, can't see my successes for my failures. I feel like, and have always felt like, a complete failure.
I also chronically feel stupid. My mantra - that I've tried for years to get rid of - is "I'm so stupid". I can argue with myself till the cows come home (!) that I can't be stupid with the IQ that I have. Doesn't change how I feel, though. Unfortunately, Bob, the college degree didn't help either. Neither did graduating "magna *** laude" from a good university. I still feel like a failure and I still feel stupid. Like you, I'm not bragging - okay, maybe I am, but the reason I'm doing it is to agree with you how irrational our thoughts and feelings can be.
The reason I don't post much about myself (or my younger son) on this board is because my younger ADD-inattentive son and I are able to squeeze our square selves in those round holes - with great difficulty, but we can do it. My elder son can't. Sometime when I have time for tears, I'll retell his story.
I appreciate the reminder about finding him a hexagonal hole. You are incredibly right on target. While I'd love for him to do somthing that I can brag about (what parent doesn't?), my only real goal for him is that he be self-supporting. For the longest time, that seemed an unreachable goal. However, if he can just find something that interests him (nothing does right now) and find the motivation to "go for it", I think now that he just might be able to live independently. We've come along way!
My husband and I differ a bit on where to go from here. He is adamant -and so I will probably defer to him - that my son go to college. Hubby says he's okay with it not working out, but he wants "Thomas" to TRY. I worry that we are setting him up for failure by pushing it on him and that we might should encourage more of a technical degree. As I said, "Thomas" doesn't have a clue what he wants to do. If he wanted to do something that didn't involve college, I'd have more of a leg to stand on. All of his friends are going to college, so I don't think it's really occurred to him to do otherwise.
