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Old 03-18-2011, 07:44 AM   #61
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Yup, the verbal measures your real potential. And, listen. Take a look around Healthboards. See how many people write as well as you do (almost none). You write as easily as speaking, and very few people can do that.

130 verbal IQ sounds just about right, judging from your posts.

About score rise: When testing the same person under the same conditions, it would be rare to see a major change in score. However, if a performance obstacle is removed, a drastic increase is expected.

One important thing is to look at your very lowest scores. I imagine there are a few tasks on which you scored way below average. Trick is to try to avoid having to do those things, and, when you do, learn to compensate with other aspects of your intelligence.

For example, I have a lousy visual memory. If I have to remember an image, I describe it to myself verbally. I'm no good at rote memorization, either. That's why I have to learn top-down, because if I go trying to learn the details without understanding the Big Picture, they'll just melt away in my brain.

I agree with Bob, it's both cruel and absurd to give people IQ tests and fail to properly interpret the results. When I was seven, my parents took me to a shrink, for years. He did an IQ test, the results screamed ADHD (30-point spread between verbal and performance). He said, "You're really smart," and ignored everything else.

Nowadays, with information so easy to find, I bet my parents could have taken the score report and figured out for themselves what it meant. But it was different back then, if a doctor didn't feel like telling you something, it was almost impossible to find out.

 
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:20 PM   #62
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by janewhite1 View Post
Yup, the verbal measures your real potential. And, listen. Take a look around Healthboards. See how many people write as well as you do (almost none). You write as easily as speaking, and very few people can do that.

130 verbal IQ sounds just about right, judging from your posts.

About score rise: When testing the same person under the same conditions, it would be rare to see a major change in score. However, if a performance obstacle is removed, a drastic increase is expected.

One important thing is to look at your very lowest scores. I imagine there are a few tasks on which you scored way below average. Trick is to try to avoid having to do those things, and, when you do, learn to compensate with other aspects of your intelligence.

For example, I have a lousy visual memory. If I have to remember an image, I describe it to myself verbally. I'm no good at rote memorization, either. That's why I have to learn top-down, because if I go trying to learn the details without understanding the Big Picture, they'll just melt away in my brain.

I agree with Bob, it's both cruel and absurd to give people IQ tests and fail to properly interpret the results. When I was seven, my parents took me to a shrink, for years. He did an IQ test, the results screamed ADHD (30-point spread between verbal and performance). He said, "You're really smart," and ignored everything else.

Nowadays, with information so easy to find, I bet my parents could have taken the score report and figured out for themselves what it meant. But it was different back then, if a doctor didn't feel like telling you something, it was almost impossible to find out.
Your response is much appreciated. It's odd, while to you it may seem writing comes easily to me, I find myself staring at the computer monitor, trying to find the proper words and phrasing to best convey my message. They say a human being lacks the necessary objectivity to see what he/she is doing/thinking wrong. Perhaps you're right, it may come relatively easily to me. However, I do find that I eschew any advanced vocabulary out of pure laziness and mental lethargy.

I can't remember what exactly the psych said, but I believe he said he had never scored a Vocabulary subtest that high (53/57), or Verbal IQ as well, I find both hard to believe. Supposedly, according to him that is the best subtest to predict academic potential.

You mentioned parts of the test I scored below average in, broadly that would be under every performance IQ subtest. Block Design was my weakest I believe, I did the first few problems relatively easily but when he upped it to nine blocks...I'm not sure what happened. Pervasive doubt was a large part of it, this probably sounds imbecilic, but I wasn't sure how large certain parts of the design I was attempting to replicate should be. The rest of th spatial tests were below average as well. My processing speed was at the 18th percentile, of course I was employing the "slow and accurate" methodology.

Also, as I recall, you scored something like 142, was this unmedicated? If so, I can't be sure my score would rise much due to medication. It is possible that my ADHD is more severe.

In all honesty, my verbal IQ could've been a little higher, but the anxiety/add/depression leaves little room in the way of academic motivation. I'm surprised I retained so much of those abilities that I had prior to the onset of those conditions.


Quote:
You would not be a statistically rarity. Your verbal IQ gives away your potential without ADHD. Excuse me, your verbal IQ is "only" 130 not 135. How the hecks can a 99 average guy end up with a verbal IQ of 130? The 30 point spread is too great to consider over-achievement as the cause. Your actual IQ of about 130 is being encumbered by moderate to severe ADHD draining your cognitive resources, I think that is the most probable explanation further supported by your ability to grasp with little effort some of rather heady stuff we discuss on this board. Let me tell you, neuro and psychological sciences are in a complexity class that make rocket science look simple.

Thunor and I were flinging around adrenergic receptors. I hope I sounded like I actually knew something about them. I do know in fact know one thing about adrenergic receptors. The prongs of the norepinephrine molecule plug fit so precisely into adrenergic receptors that only the norepi key can open the receptors ion channel and perpetuate the signal through the receiving neuron link in the chain that ends with the actuation of one or more of the brains function modules. My one answer opened Pandoras box and out flew a zillion more questions of greater complexity. I don't have enough years left to get past neuro transmitters that are compositely just small part of the knowledge acquisition and skills to become a neuro scientist.

Wanna know what, TryAgain? You are young enough and smart enough to become neuro scientist if it is something you'd like to pursue.

But first things first. Let's get your ADHD debugged and tweak your operating system to run at its best.

Did the dude performing the tests explain to you the reason for such a high spike in your verbal score? If so, I take back the bad things I said about the moron. I used "moron" because I doubt he did.
I appreciate the compliments, Bob, you're obviously a smart guy yourself. In one sense, though, I would be a statistical rarity, as how many people would jump up thirty points? Don't get me wrong, it is definitely possible.

The psych performing the test did not explain the reason for the vast difference, except for anxiety and add. But I don't think he attributed that much of a score deficit to those things. He should've said "something's not right." Also, he thinks my true IQ is about 112, but honestly, that still isn't good enough. With this guy, it's hard to tell what he means. By "true" he might have meant how far I could score given the restraints of my neuroses(sp?).

One thing the psychologist said that was just a tad odd was when he made a comment on my processing speed index, he claimed "it's almost as if you need something intellectually stimulating to perform well" or something to that effect. You'd think he would've made a connection there.

In truth, my psych isn't a bad guy, he didn't put my results into my record and I appreciate him for that.
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:11 PM   #63
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Also, I've been doing research and supposedly it is statistically unlikely for someone to increase their IQ 30 points.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:48 AM   #64
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

You know, digit span was my worst subscore, too. I don't remember the exact number (it was only 11 years ago, after all) but I know it was a pretty low percentile, way below 50.

Of course you need stimulation to do well. But, some tasks like digit span are so tough that stimulation doesn't even help. That's a major part of how ADHD works. Does this guy just not get it?

It really seems to me that you have two separate but connected problems here. One is ADHD, the other is resulting self-esteem issues, and I think both need to be treated separately.

"However, I do find that I eschew any advanced vocabulary out of pure laziness and mental lethargy."

You did mean that ironically, right? Don't worry, we all have to stop and think and delete and rewrite to say things the way we want. I love my delete button...

Are you going to try medication any time soon? Have you checked into specific coaching to help you develop the skills that you need right now?

 
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:51 AM   #65
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by janewhite1 View Post
You know, digit span was my worst subscore, too. I don't remember the exact number (it was only 11 years ago, after all) but I know it was a pretty low percentile, way below 50.

Of course you need stimulation to do well. But, some tasks like digit span are so tough that stimulation doesn't even help. That's a major part of how ADHD works. Does this guy just not get it?

It really seems to me that you have two separate but connected problems here. One is ADHD, the other is resulting self-esteem issues, and I think both need to be treated separately.

"However, I do find that I eschew any advanced vocabulary out of pure laziness and mental lethargy."

You did mean that ironically, right? Don't worry, we all have to stop and think and delete and rewrite to say things the way we want. I love my delete button...

Are you going to try medication any time soon? Have you checked into specific coaching to help you develop the skills that you need right now?

ironically? yeah sort of. You're not the only one to comment on my low self-esteem, it does seem like that particularly irritates certain people I know.

I've been referred to an MD, but I chose a psychiatrist I had seen previously as I specifically had med-related questions, how potently it affects the projection of perhaps "dormant" intelligence. I want someone who knows my psychologist (they work in the same clinic), so that they can confer if needed, about med-related IQ issues. About the drastic increase you mentioned, I'm not sure how well aware my psychologist is of that possibility, so someone he knows/can speak with will be on benefit to me. My psychologist is expecting an increase of score, but he said he didn't know on something as drastic as thirty points.

But, the fact that my verbal and performance scores are so heavily discrepant, already makes me a statistical rarity, so I suppose it is possible.

Oh, my digit span score was one point above average, while my arithmetic was one point below so my WM index worked out to an average score. Block Design was my weakest score, for some reason manipulating physical objects causes me anxiety. The Processing Speed index, well, that was very low as well, however I was trying to employ a slow and accurate method, the psych said the trick is to memorize the symbols. Well, yeah obviously, but that isn't foolproof when someone doesn't trust their own memory.
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:10 PM   #66
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

I don't know, I think it was just a bad idea to take that test, my self-esteem has fallen even lower. I thought if I could get some confirmation of my intelligence it would give me a much needed boost, turns out that didn't happen.

Also, someone else informed me that my VIQ and PIQ could naturally be that discrepant, possibly hinting at autism or asperger's. I have no clue what to think, jesus, adhd and bad parenting really screwed me up.

What's really messed up is I blew the Vocabulary section out of the water, psych claimed he has never scored anyone that high (53/57 unconverted score) and vocabulary is supposed to highly correlate with FSIQ, general intelligence.

Wow, I just realized I am a vortex of pessimism!
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Last edited by TryAgain121; 03-21-2011 at 12:32 PM.

 
Old 03-23-2011, 07:59 AM   #67
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryAgain121 View Post
I don't know, I think it was just a bad idea to take that test, my self-esteem has fallen even lower. I thought if I could get some confirmation of my intelligence it would give me a much needed boost, turns out that didn't happen.

Also, someone else informed me that my VIQ and PIQ could naturally be that discrepant, possibly hinting at autism or asperger's. I have no clue what to think, jesus, adhd and bad parenting really screwed me up.

What's really messed up is I blew the Vocabulary section out of the water, psych claimed he has never scored anyone that high (53/57 unconverted score) and vocabulary is supposed to highly correlate with FSIQ, general intelligence.

Wow, I just realized I am a vortex of pessimism!
TryAgain,

I underlined the phrases I'd typically associate with higher IQ people. I could have underlined your entire post. I didn't because the emphasis would be lost.

You are NOT autistic and you probably aren't afflicted with aspergers. You empathize too well with the rest of us for Aspergers to be likely.

The discrepancy between your VIP and FIP should have you jumping up and down with joy. Finally you got the empirical proof that you wanted for your high intelligence. And you got the empirical reason (a neural "artery" blockage) why you have not be able to display your high intelligence in your achievements.

Time to move toward ADHD remediation - both of the medical and CBT types.

Bob

 
Old 03-23-2011, 11:38 AM   #68
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by addprogrammer View Post
TryAgain,

I underlined the phrases I'd typically associate with higher IQ people. I could have underlined your entire post. I didn't because the emphasis would be lost.

You are NOT autistic and you probably aren't afflicted with aspergers. You empathize too well with the rest of us for Aspergers to be likely.

The discrepancy between your VIP and FIP should have you jumping up and down with joy. Finally you got the empirical proof that you wanted for your high intelligence. And you got the empirical reason (a neural "artery" blockage) why you have not be able to display your high intelligence in your achievements.

Time to move toward ADHD remediation - both of the medical and CBT types.

Bob
I have an appt with a psychiatrist first of next month that will alleviate my lack of medication issue. Asperger's I merely considered it a possibility simply because of discrepancies in scores, I suppose add can explain it just as well.

I appreciate the continued support, and I'm sure it must be frustrating that I'm seemingly unwilling to take the positivity of it. I'm trying to, but for example most don't believe IQ can change, even those who claim a psychological background. Sure, stupid people do enter the education system, but that's besides the point. I suppose I mean, it's hard for me to be positive in the face of such negativity, including my own natural penchant for the displaying that trait.
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:48 AM   #69
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

I get it, I really do.

You'll get it when I got it - when I saw the difference in me because of ADHD remediation.

You are moving past the danger by moving forward with therapy. No need for either of us to worry any longer.

Bob

 
Old 03-23-2011, 12:12 PM   #70
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Can ADD effect Perceptual Reasoning Abilities? It doesn't seem likely, that was amongst my poorer subtest scores. I don't know, maybe when my ADD is under control it will allow me to vastly over-compensate for my deficits--especially for Perceptual Reasoning.
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Old 03-23-2011, 05:18 PM   #71
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

TryAgain,

Tell me which of these functions are adversely affected by inability to focus attention/maintain attention?

A) Ability to determine pictures that logically belong together
B) Ability to select the correct picture that completes a logical array of pictures
C) Ability to identify the missing part in a picture of a common object.
D) Ability to order red and white blocks to form the pattern displayed by a model

All are tests designed to measure perceptual reasoning.

If you answer all of the above, you answered correctly.

Everyone of those functions depend on ability to focus and maintain attention. ADHD sends perceptual reasoning test scores to hell or lower.

How about tests used to index processing speed? Those tests measure how quickly we decode symbols and how quickly we find a symbol in a long string of symbols.

Does ADHD adversely affect processing speed?

You darn tooting it does.

The inordinate time we spend trying to fix our focus isn't deducted from our actual time processing symbols.

Does ADHD decrease our above average ability to define words, identify synonyms, and our above average knowledge and understanding of common concepts and general knowledge?

No. Hear that "NO" loud and clear. No.

Verbal IQ is not strictly a measure of cognitive functioning. Verbal IQ sums the results from the (cognitive functioning) information processing we've done before taking the IQ test.

Can you see why Verbal IQ is a good measure of your IQ less ADHD skewed results?

You should know that cognitive information processing functions are potentials brought to maturity through skills mostly learned during early childhood years and continually refined through out life. Part of ADHD remediation is learning how to effectively use the mental function capacities we've had all along.

ADHD remediation will not raise your IQ. It will, however, unleash the IQ potential in you causing your functional IQ to go through the freaking roof.

Your functioning IQ evidenced in your achievements will be >= 130. The greater than > symbol is included because work-arounds often enable greater functionality than same capacities used normally.

Bob

 
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:11 PM   #72
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

I agree with Bob. A 30-point verbal/performance gap is most commonly a sign of severe ADHD. I have it, my disastrous ex had it, and apparently you do, too.

I have not been retested since getting treated for ADHD. It's possible my performance IQ would be higher, but I'm not interested enough to spend time and money to find out for sure. However, my actual PERFORMANCE in life drastically improved, which is the important thing.

 
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:43 PM   #73
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by janewhite1 View Post
I agree with Bob. A 30-point verbal/performance gap is most commonly a sign of severe ADHD. I have it, my disastrous ex had it, and apparently you do, too.

I have not been retested since getting treated for ADHD. It's possible my performance IQ would be higher, but I'm not interested enough to spend time and money to find out for sure. However, my actual PERFORMANCE in life drastically improved, which is the important thing.

I'm assuming other cases have been documented with drastic score increases? Thing is, I'm not obsessed with IQ, just what it proportedly measures. Anyway, I'll bring all these points up to my psychiatrist/psychologist, tactfully of course, and hopefully get through to them. I'm just plagued by doubt, and suppose it'll remain that way until I see some results. What you're saying makes logical sense, but not everyone has agreed with the fact that ADHD potentially drastically effects IQ, although some do. Of course, you're smarter than most, so you have that on your side.

Yep, Bob, I agree with all of this. As I said, I'm going to present this information to the clinicians treating me, and I need to get through to them that this is a pervasive and perennial problem. I can't just flip off the ADHD switch and perform to my capabilities, hopefully, they'll see the light.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:35 AM   #74
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

So, I'm planning to quote what jane said about score rise to my psychologist/psychiatrist and VIQ and PIQ discrepancies most commonly being a sign of ADHD. This may prove to be a larger help in convincing them than I currently realize, but is there any other words of wisdom that either of you can think of that I can use to persuade them this ailment was severely impacting my performance?

I'm also thinking it would be a wise idea to buff up my "verbal strengths" before I re-take, as that can only aid in my test performance.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:48 AM   #75
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Re: About the WAIS-IV

Good news, well for me. The psychiatrist agreed with everything that was presented here. I asked him if ADHD could impair general intelligence, or rather the displaying of it, and he agreed, evidence to that fact could discrepancies in scores, and he said "I think you have plenty of intelligence, but ADHD makes it hard to harness that. I should be medicating soon.

On an unrelated note he also agreed about the pioneering research on depression, and that antidepressants work not necessarily because of the serotonin, but because of the fact they protect neurons and facilitate their growth, which my psychologist was unsure whether or not that was substantiated.
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