Here is a quote from *****. "The negative consequences of not using medication for children with ADHD have to be weighed against the known risks. Long-term outcome studies have now been conducted with large numbers of adults diagnosed with ADHD as children, and one clear finding is that those who received medication for their disorder in childhood are more functional and have a better quality of life as adults than those who had the symptoms of the disease but did not receive medicine."
I think you just said the same, eh? A got to do a really important tangent right now. I don't think I ever mentioned to Thunor that I know two guys that live in Edmonton. I meet them on a job about 8,9,10 years ago. I'm going to tell you straight out, all of you English speaking Canadians must be speed freaks because that "eh" thing ain't no word wisker, it's Tourettes. I'm taking tics. Those boys said "eh" every other word. I started busting chops by imitating "eh" every other word. I ended up infected with the damn "eh" tic. Enough has passed to get myself disinfected. But I don't know if Thunor is really Canadian. He doesn't do "eh." When I watched Canadian TV news, them anchor guys and girls don't "eh" either. I synched up real nice with those Edmonton guys. I dig Canadians.
More from *****. "The symptoms of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) are not physical symptoms such as ear pain or vomiting but rather exaggerated or unusual behaviors. The type and severity of symptoms vary greatly among people with ADHD. The severity of symptoms depends on the degree of abnormality in the brain, the presence of related conditions, and the individual's environment and response to that environment."
Most members of this board have more brains than the sum total of all other ADD boards on the Internet. Thunor, JaneWhite, (I'm coming around slowly but surely) easily grasp the concept of degree. Wow, that is deep. We figured it out before *****. I've told people who are obviously NOT ADHD about my dysfunction and they've responded with "I got that too." Bull Poop.
JaneWhite was the first I remembered saying, "we don't all live in the same house." Wow, that is deep. A bozo from HMS named Timothy Leary blow his brains out with LSD. The psychosis was so deep that he actually believed he was one with the universe. Bozo. <sarcasm>I have my universe. What's more, my universe is the only universe. If I experienced it, it's true. If I haven't experienced it, it has to be Bull Poop.</sarcasm>
I have experienced "my degree of abnormality in the brain, the presence of my related conditions, and my individual's environment and my response to that environment." My universe has the same dimensions as my hat size. Kinda small, ain't it?
Yet, we see far too often, "my kid will never be put on drugs," Or "if you take the damn speed you'll end up like them "eh" guys up north. Good. I like those types.
BTW ADHD damn near cost me my marriage. Yes, my wife and I spent the first month banging each other non-stop. Then she started with that "communication" thing. I knew she was right. I could not figure out why I had so much trouble "communicating." I wanted to, but couldn't. Just like you.
Another rip from *****. "
The six major tasks of executive function that are most commonly distorted with ADHD: (Comments are based on prior to diagnosis and therapy)
1) shifting from one mind-set or strategy to another (that is, flexibility); Me to the max.
2) organization (for example, anticipating both needs and problems); Me to the max.
3) planning (for example, goal setting); Me to the max.
4) working memory (that is, receiving, storing, then retrieving information within short-term memory); Me to the max squared.
5) separating emotions from reason; Me but understandably so. I knew since first grade I have above intelligence. But why do I act so stupidly? As if I had no more wisdom than a child. I must be dumb, stupid, lazy, rebellious and irresponsible just like everyone tells me. But I ain't. I know I ain't. No one could see that my expenditure of effort to walk the walk was herculean.
6) regulating speech and movements appropriately. I'm doing better but bad words, conclusions, decisions, come out of mouth before I thought it.
I was out clearing my yard with a snow blower this AM. I asked my wife to please move the blow dryer back a few feet so I could get my truck out. Without saying a word, she moved the snow blower back a few feet.
I hope you didn't read my implusive conclusion on the NOR prefixed to epinephrine. How the hecks can I be so stupid. I'm not. I thought it. I wrote it. Without thinking about it. Another example of my screwing words up. I'd tell my boss that the NOT operator is urinary. OR is duoterry. And C even has a three-a-terry thing-a-giggy looks like this: a ? b : c See a,b,c = three thing-a-jiggies. Look at OR see Condition1 OR Condition2 is 2 thing-a-jiggs. NOT(Condition) One thing a jiggy but the smart guys call it urinary.
I will admit to some exaggeration for the sake of humor but not much. I easily learned and remembered the syntax but not what the smart guys call it. What for? The compiler never asked if I know the "cool" name. Besides, urinary is so funny. "Unary" doesn't crack a smile. No one except me knew the truth. I wasn't trying to be funny, my ADHD brain referenced a nearby memory address cuz the reference to "unary" got lost along the way sometime back. I'll confess, I had to look it up. NOT = Unary; OR = Binary; "? :" is a ternary operator.
I got to go back to work. Damn it. Later.
Last edited by addprogrammer; 01-22-2011 at 02:31 PM.
Reason: I'm stupid
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: RANDOL (02-01-2011), syborg (01-23-2011)
Bob, that's pretty much how I have felt too(executive function problems)! I am Canadian, but grew up 5 mins outside of Detroit, so I never really picked up "eh", until I moved to Alberta, where it seemed to be infectious(my tangent). ADHD has cost me a few jobs, a good education, a fiance(which is a good thing), and almost my marriage as well. Now, if I can get through this damn Effexor withdrawal, I'll be in good shape!
I guess I should explain why ADHD has cost me some of the things I mentioned, as the purpose of this thread is to further educate people on this subject(I'm sure most of you know this already, but for the people who don't)
-ADHD'ers frequently become bored, and lose interest, resulting in poor performance. Of course, focus ex. careless mistakes etc. The list goes on.
2. Relationships(of all sorts)
-communication is usually the key issue, because from what I understand is the we have a hard time explaining ourselves, are easily frustrated, and most times drift away from a conversation with our loved ones, making them feel as if we don't care.
3. Proper Education
-we all should know this one through experience!
There's a ton of ways ADHD can "wreak havoc" in our lives, if not understood, and treated! Gotta go, it's evening, Adderall has worn off, and I have to focus my attention elsewhere. I figured I'd post this before I forget, no time to proof read, or patience, so I will impulsively hit the "post quick reply" button. My counsellor(who is ADD), told me I should learn to laugh at some of my "no harm" ADHDisms.
The Following User Says Thank You to syborg For This Useful Post: addprogrammer (01-23-2011)
Whew, I got some work to do on my implusiveness. As I walked in the door, I had this terribly thought. Good God help me if Syborg is one of those duoterrry language types that speaky FRENCH and English. Please tell me God Syborg ain't from Quebec. Please, please, please.
There is a God and he does answer prayers. Actually I love French speaking Canadians.
Another clip from ***** that I think you'll find helpful. "The behaviors of ADHD can mimic mood disorders (for example, bipolar disorder or depression), anxiety, or personality disorder. Those conditions must be ruled out or adequately treated before a definitive diagnosis of ADHD can be made."
Protection is my driving force behind this thread. We must deal with a very emotional issue. "5) separating emotions from reason;" is a problem every human has with or without ADHD. I do not like the idea of using stimulant medications. The "why" is purely emotional. I can't break the gut level feeling link between the therapeutic use of amphetamines with the abuse of amphetamines.
Check this one out. "The use of psychostimulants in children should be scrutinized carefully. Fortunately, methylphenidate (Ritalin [and its long active formulation, Concerta], historically the most widely prescribed medication for ADHD) has been available for many years. This long period of clinical experience has shown that this is one of the safest medications used in children." - *****.
I "feel" reservations about medicating children with stimulants even though I'm confident "that this is one of the safest medications used in children" statement rests on mounds of evidence from that "long period of clinical experience." And even though the quality of my life certainly would have been improved if was medicated as a child. My reservations are based purely in emotion with no logic attached. None whatsoever.
I've known for a very long time that "Stimulants used for ADHD do not cause addiction. Although tolerance usually develops for the stimulant-associated effects of anorexia, insomnia, or mild euphoria, tolerance does not develop to the increased levels of neurotransmitters." - *****
Some of this board's members have expressed concern over developing tolerance in a week or two. They are experiencing "titration" not tolerance. But they are taking close to the maximum recommended 40 mg dose, what to do?
"The type and severity of symptoms vary greatly among people with ADHD. The severity of symptoms depends on the degree of abnormality in the brain, the presence of related conditions, and the individual's environment and response to that environment."
What if the neurotransmitter deficits are so low that 40 mgs is grossly insufficient to counter the severity of the symptoms? Can 60, 80, 100, 120 mgs or more be safely used? Yes if two criteria are meet satisfactorily. 1) The dose does not cause the neuro values to go over normal. Over boost is indicated by failing to meet the next condition. 2) The patient tolerates the dose well. That is, no excessive BP or heart rate rise, and eats and sleeps sufficiently to maintain good heath.
Emotion, this case, doctors fear of the Feds is the "why" they are so reluctant to go much over the recommended 40mg. I assume if I can read the reports, read about the controls researchers used to keep out corrupting data, read where the researchers admit to the possibility for a few leaks here and there, then read how their results are consistent with many previous studies, and read their evidence based conclusions and recommendations soundly based in scientific logic, that "fear of the Feds" can be the only reason most doctors in this country will not prescribe the doses some patients need to control their symptoms.
But doesn't escalating dose to such high values end up in addiction. NO. If both criteria are met. I do lack research study documentation to back up my next statement. It's based on the patterns reported by patients on the high doses. High doses are not needed for very long. Once the symptoms are controlled, the dose can be decreased over time to under the 40 mg ceiling and in some cases can go to zero.
I found some evidence in the biology that could explain that pattern. Neurons that fire frequently gain synaptic connections with their neighbors. What's more, the number of synapses possible from one neuron to another is far in excess of one. Frequent firing strengthens the one-to-one neuron relationship by increasing the number of synapses binding them together. Once we get those buggers firing, overall network connectivity is benefited. "Neurons that fire together wire together" is truth. The network "learns" how to move information efficiently and effectively.
We can chuck the whole package down the toilet if prevailing public opinion pressures us away from the very medications that will help. Down the toilet it goes for quite a few parents who have gone beyond every thing in their power, worried sick over their children, who come to this board looking for a solution, when dissuaded from seeking a medical solution.
Down the toilet it goes when doctors won't prescribe medications needed by their patients who come to them trusting the doc bases his decisions on medical science. Most never realize that their being stuck in ADHD eternal hell stems from the good doctors fear of the Feds not their best interests.
None of this will budge the naysayers. They have no evidence now and are not interested in any evidence to the contrary. Their position is based solely in emotion and plays on the emotions of those of us with ADHD.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: RANDOL (02-01-2011), syborg (01-23-2011)
Thunor suggested that my "go back on Effexor" advice was based on Effexor + Adderall worked for you. That was about 10% of it. The other 90% is knowing Effexor withdrawals are more than difficult. They can be life threatening. I tried to find research studies that may have been conducted on Effexor's withdrawals. The one and only study was conducted by Effexors manufacturer Wyeth. Wyeth found no problems. Hmm.
I found a couple figures I think are good approximations. 78% of Effexor users experience withdrawal side-effects. The FDA claims 9% experience "serious" withdrawals. FDA defines "serious" as side effects that cause death, hospitalization, cancer, permanent disability, or birth defects. Based on the over-whelming number of Effexor withdrawal horror stories, I'll venture that a large percentage of the (78% - 9% = 69%) were reports that fell a little short of "death or permanent disability." I read a few reports (I got to start counting to be more specific) in the 4 to 5 range about the withdrawal nightmare going on for 2 to 3 years. And double the reports where withdrawals went on for months.
So, my friend that don't speak french, be careful. You are dealing with a dangerous syndrome. Every recommendation I found said the same. Your doctor should monitor you closely as he gradually reduces the dose over a period of month or two or more. The brain zapping became intolerable to some of those that went cold turkey and in desperation they went back on Effexor.
You don't need a withdrawal problem this serious while tackling the opening moves on ADHD. I can see everything getting blow to heaks on you. I should say, if I found myself in that boat, I be down faster than the titanium.
That's the real why I said what I said. Good advice or bad? It depends on how closely your universe parallels mine. My 2centAdvice.1001. See what gives for another week. It could just zap right out of you done with it. At the end of the week, do an honest appraisal on yourself. Will the zaps blow up your ADHD launch just off the pad? Then do what you need to do. I do recommend your doc should be involved in your detox if not monitoring it already. After doing the research, my "severe" assessment on Effexor withdrawals has gone up a notch. I did not appreciated the necessity for medical supervision.
The Following User Says Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: syborg (01-23-2011)
Wow, that's a lot of good info, and I actually read it all carefully(it's morning, and I'm fully focused as Adderall is in full effect). Bob, I wanted to ask, if the stimulant can be reduced down to zero, does that mean ADHD can be "cured"?I've been through quite a few sessions with a psychologist who specializes in ADHD, and we've ruled out other disorders(including thyroid issues). I had to bring my old grade school reports cards. It's funny, because i can still clearly remember comments from teachers(in my report cards, and parent/teacher interviews). "Steven constantly dissrupts class","Steven doesn't pay attention in class", "Steven constantly blurts things out, "Steven is smart, but doesn't apply himself". That last comment was frustrating to my parents because they couldn't understand why I didn't just settle down and work. I was told I was lazy, class clown fidgety, ants in my pants, I can go on and on. Anyway, my son requires my attention now, that trumps all! P.S. Only my mom calls me Steven, my wife too, when I'm in trouble. Haha
Last edited by syborg; 01-23-2011 at 11:08 AM.
Thanks for the advice on the Effexor withdrawals too. I'm sure it's not a good idea to withdrawal from something, while trying to begin ADHD treatment. The doc is ignoring me about the w/d symptoms anyway. He(current shrink) NEVER remembers who I am, has lost my file, twice, and is pretty quick with his Rx pad(quack!), so I'm pretty much on my own, scary! I don't have a "family Dr", as they are impossible to get when you move away from your hometown. I have an appointment with a pyschiatrist who only works with ADD/ADHD, but not til the end of April. He's a tough guy to see, being the only one in the city who specializes in the area. I figured I would go in "clean",(from Effexor) and he could help me find what medication is best for me. I will see him before I make any decisions on how to further treat ADHD. In the meantime, withdrawals are getting better and Adderall seems to be working well again. For some reason, when Adderall is "kicked in", the "brain zaps" subside, but are usually back by dinner time
Last edited by syborg; 01-23-2011 at 11:07 AM.
Reason: Old habbits die hard! Even with meds.
I'm doing lots of research and my available time for this project today may run out when I'm forced. I'll post what I have and continue later.
I'll answer your question within the context I think you ask "Can ADHD be cured?" No.
I have a theory that I think wraps the many conditions associated with the disorder. Theory returns a conditional yes on "Can ADHD be cured?"
Your post #15 this thread is among the most insightful I've had the privilege to read. You address the right things. That is, the things that should move everyone to get this disorder under control. Your post #15 helped me cement concrete a force that influences all of us either to our good or our ruin. Our environment especially the one we had when hatched and young.
I'm certain, that in some cases, ADHD children can be raised successfully without medications or psychiatric doctors. I feel perturbed when parents deny medical care for their suffering ADHD children that need medical care. And feel sorry for the parents because the decision they think will help their children will end up devastating their children.
Please read Marisuela's thread at http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=831209
Marisuela is making an intelligent informed decision to help her daughter without medication.
Let's rerun a quote from MedMD and label it.
MedMD.doc "The type and severity of symptoms vary greatly among people with ADHD. The severity of symptoms depends on the degree of abnormality in the brain, the presence of related conditions, and the individual's environment and response to that environment.
"Extract IUnknown to me: The severity of symptoms depends on the degree of abnormality in the brain, the presence of related conditions.
Compare MedMD.doc. with Marisuela.personage
A. Marisuela's daughter has the best possible environment
B. Her daughter responds to her loving full-time (with overtime) mother who takes parenting seriously. The family subscribes to high values and live accordingly.
IUnknown values-to-me have been weighed carefully by Marisuela. She has determined that the risks outweigh any possible benefits. For me to judge Marisuela would be totally out of line. I'll do it anyway. At age 18, Marisuela's daughter = well adjusted happy young adult who does funny things in public and gets everyone laughing just like Mom.
If the IUnknowns in the future begin to lean more on the severe side, Marisuela will seek medical help. I'll bet my life on it.
We focus heavily on the genetics and should. Like many other diseases, we are born high risk for ADHD. Worse yet, much worse, no one asked me who I wanted for parents. No reason too. I'd choose the ones I had. Besides I really got even with the old folks right proper. They regretted having me. Taught them a thing or two.
Our environment, especially the one we were raised, exerts the most force on who we are as adults. JaneWhite, who is smarter than hecks, as I'm sure you know, had a less than spectacular first marriage. Jane said, in more or less words, her ex is as ADHD as Jane. The parents of the "ex" provided no structure or guidance or medical care above and beyond needed to stay out of jail.
Jane's parents on the other hand, took Jane (bull is unacceptable) by the horns and wrestled in good work ethics and a sense of responsibity expected from adults.
All of that being said, all that was said is why an unqualified "yes" can't be given to the "Can ADHD be cured?"
Attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a neurobehavioral disorder that affects 3-5 percent of all American children. Several components of the NIH support research on developmental disorders such as ADHD.
There is no "cure" for ADHD. Children with the disorder seldom outgrow it; however, some may find adaptive ways to accommodate the ADHD as they mature.
I got to go, but before going, about:" Accommodation" Certainly accounts for some of my improvements because I can link them directly to CBT. Tell you with even greater certainty that CBT was worthless before my neural network got its connectivity upgrade.
The Following User Says Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: syborg (01-24-2011)
Hi Bob, I see your really doing your home work as usual my friend and as always i have been following all of your threads as well as Thunor's and others as well. My question for you sir is did or do you have any side-effects taking Guanfacine? Im interested in doing a study on it for my son and possible trial. As usual my son is now taking a med that does nothing for him (Conserta) and my wife and i are still trying to find a Dr. that will put our son back on Vyvanse which he started out with shortly after he was diagnosed and did so well on it along with his Clonidine and Risperidol. I do appriciate any info you or anyone would like to share on the matter......once again I thank you all for being here to share your info,its a great help. Your friend RANDOL
As you noted I am being benefited nicely by guanfacine. Occasionally to rarely I experience light headed anxious in a plane (commercial jet) on landing. Its all in my head as is true with all brain bugs, I just know if we are going to wreak and burst into a ball of fire and flames, it will be now, within a few air miles of comfort and stationary.
So far my prophetic feelings have made a fool of me. Great.
On the "can it be cured?" question, I'm going to more or less agree with what Bob said. I do believe that my parents did a great job with me, given that I was born at least a decade before it even occurred to the mental health community that girls could be genuinely hyperactive.
And parents out there: I do wish I had been medicated at six, when I cried myself to sleep, wanting to be a good girl but not knowing how. Or at thirteen, still trying to fit in, tired of being told I was smart when I just couldn't get my assignments done in a timely manner, or even keep track of them. Or at seventeen, first time in college.
My parents did teach me basic discipline and most of the skills I most needed. I was medicated at nineteen, just for a couple of years, and in that time I learned the skills I hadn't been able to learn without it. At this point I do okay, even without medication, but it wasn't easy to get there, and I do still struggle with certain things.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to janewhite1 For This Useful Post: RANDOL (01-25-2011), syborg (01-25-2011)
I down loaded the Firefox 4.0 Beta 9 two days ago. I really like some of the new features. Somehow us geeks have not yet agreed on an international, platform independent (Operating System / Hardware type / Browser type) web page encoding standard. We do have a couple million "ours is the best way" to encode web pages. The team at Firefox included parsers for every "standard" that anyone with or without brains declared as best and got praise from at least one worshiper, two tops. FF even included Microsoft specific char sets developed when MS was destined crush all globally inferior standards and bring peace to all mankind by enforcing MS's will over all. Even MS specific standards worthless now will display nicely.
Being a geek, and being as stupid as the best of all geeks, I decided to query Health Boards through a FireFox 4.0 Beta 9 debug window just to see if I could see HB's IP address. After all, why not play while playing? I blew up my own freaking computer instead. I lost video then my OS crashed. I prayed. "God save me." God said, "I just blew you up for being wicked, do you really think I'm going to save you?" I replied that the "Devil made me do it." I heard no more voices and had no further visions and am now psychosis free. I'm cured.
The really cool, I mean cool to the 20 gadzillionst power. This thread on this board was returned twice in the first 20 hits on my search on "Effexor Withdrawals" using a Firefox search engine add-in.
I'm the man that got in the top 20 hits of all hits in the entire universe. As I bathed in my hour of fame, scooping up all the glory, I noted that Syborg's text, that new boy from Canada, ain't even American, tundry bugger, don't know nutin ... his text in this MY THREAD was getting the attention of all the bots.
Borgy, watch yourself.
Want to know what those high ranking hits on a new thread really mean? The billions getting their brains zapped senseless are querying "Effexor Withdrawals."
It is a wide spread (global) painful syndrome moving the masses to seek relief from Effexor withdrawal agony.
Bob, Thank you for the info my friend,it helps alot and to know that Guanfacine is working for you is great to hear. To Jane, I think even that great people like you,Thunor and Bob came out of your childhood's better than most that didnt have the meds and i really respect yall for doing what you do in doing reserch on meds and the illness. For myself i am also learning and trying to understand the aspects of ADHD for my 6yr old son and it isnt easy but im still not going to quit on him or his illness. Thanks again everyone......
My brother and I did fairly well as children, likely as a function of our general intelligence (school was never a challenge, despite our tendency to daydream the day away), and a very strong mother. I still, to this day, feel real regret at the hell we visited on my mother, though she always handled herself with grace, even while standing over us for hours making sure the homework got done.
I feel that it was probably this general veneer of competence that kept us from being diagnosed until so late in our lives, when ADHD had well and truly destroyed what may well have been happy and successful lives. We're now, in our late 30s, starting to get things together, but are still at the level of development of non-ADHD persons in their late teens or early 20s.
I'm honestly ambivalent about medicating ADHD kids, despite the data. I've heard the self reports of my girlfriend's kids, and they tended to dislike the feeling that came along with the meds. Further, I've found that many of the unmedicated adult ADHD sufferers I've heard from avoid the medication due to what it made them feel like as children, even though their experience as adults would be much different.
This is not to say that medicating children is necessarily dangerous or counter-productive, but with my own kids (if I had any) I would prefer to structure their lives in such a way that they could succeed without meds for as long as possible, and include skills training for kids with ADHD.
I firmly believe that medication is one of the pillars of ADHD recovery, and it should never be summarily dismissed, especially in the case of adults who don't have the structure and safety of a strong parental environment on which to lean. Children, however, may have the benefit of good parents to insulate them from the need for meds, if not forever, then for as long as they can.
As a side note: I've spent some time thinking about my stance regarding medicating children with ADHD thanks to Bob and the very convincing case he presented recently, I haven't yet come to any solid conclusions. It's important, though, to bear in mind that this is my own personal opinion, and should in no way be considered authoritative.
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