Thunor, Once again you have gained my support and respect and as far as medicating kids i also agree with you but also disagree. As you said,building a good structure system is a great benefit for the younger kids like my son and others his age with ADHD. In some few case's like my son,my wife and i too have a structure system but it isnt enough to help him when he isnt on medication then his education is effected and that hurts him in the long run. Im sure you know what im talking about my friend but anyways thank you again,your always a big help.
BOB I agree with you my friend and no apologies,I like to hear straight forward what yall have to say. I look forward to your next nero correlates my friend. By the way have you got snowed in out your way?
One of the lines I've been pursuing is "if ADHD is a genetic disorder, show me the buggy chromosomes."
I searched "ADHD chromosome" or similar in medical research search engines that returned over 300 web pages that I read from over 60 web sites many in the .edu, .gov, .org, and .net domains (nothing to sell). I dead ended. None of them pointed me to the buggy chromosome.
Then ... about 15 hours ago ... paydirt.
A recently published study has the dirt I wanted.
I must name names for validation. I do not quote any of my source material.
Source: The Study was conducted by scientists at Cardiff University (Wales, UK) and was published in The Lancet.
The research/study was funded by the Wellcome Trust (UK based), with additional support from Action Medical Research, the Medical Research Council and the European Union.
No pharmaceutical funding.
My Summary of Study Results (I do not quote any source articles):
The study found rare CNVs were about twice as common in children with ADHD compared to the control sample.
CNV = Copy Number Variants. Definition: The number of copies of a particular genetic sequence different than presumed normal. CNVs detected in children with ADHD are chromosome abnormalities involving the addition or subtraction of an entire chromosome or set of chromosomes.
CNV's can result in serious genetic disease. For example, three copies of chromosome 21 results in Down syndrome.
CNVs detected in children with ADHD were duplicated or deleted stretches of chomosome 16.
Note: The particular region on chromosome 16 has been previously implicated to other major psychiatric disorders and spans a number of genes including one known to play a role in the development of the brain.
The researchers at Cardiff University are the first to find direct evidence that ADHD is a genetic disorder. My source reports are dated September 30, 2010. Four months ago.
The study results were replicated using another larger ADHD group and another larger control group.
"If ADHD is a genetic disorder, show me the buggy chromosomes."
The brilliant scientists at Cardiff University did just that.
Relevance: The study will help [reasonable] people see ADHD as a neurodevelopmental disorder, like autism, instead of a behavior problem.
No amount of evidence scientific or otherwise will move those that want to believe "ADHD is disorder invented by drug companies so they can sell speed legally."
Controlling moderate to severe ADHD requires medication.
"The neuro correlate:" The internal operations of the neurons outputting dopamine and norepinephrine are being governed by an instruction set that is missing entire pages or has duplicate pages. Each neuron, actually every cell in our bodies, have a copy of the entire DNA code.
I doubt if "a fix" is possible short of some form of stem cell technology. Anyone with info on DNA "upgrades" please post.
I think many of us can develop "overrides" or skills that enable us to compensate for the deficit and that possibly may mean a functional life without medication.
Thanks for the info, Bob! Fortunately, you're looking at legitimate sources, as the Lancet is peer reviewed, and as such, studies it publishes would have a lot of validity. It's not some random website trying to sell a supplement, publishing its own 'science.'
I will try to find a copy of the study, as this line of research is something I'd like to follow.
Ultimately, I have a feeling we're going to learn that what we know as ADHD is actually several different disorders that share similar symptoms. My reasoning is that, while we know that ADHD is often genetic, and passed from parents to children, other issues such as lack of oxygen or brain damage in vitro are likely also causes of ADHD. I suspect environmental and nutritional factors will also be found to be at fault in some cases, after all, they're finding that Parkinson's is often caused by pesticide exposure. Additionally, I think we'll find that there are several different genetic variations that lead to the various types of ADHD; a genetic variation that leads to primarily inattentive may be different from one that leads to hyperactive or combined type.
I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime, but I have faith that the real causes of ADHD will be found, and that we will ultimately be able to cure it, rather than simply treating with stimulants to bring us to a functional level. That is, unless ADHD continues to be the 'flavour of the week' with doctors, and it's overdiagnosed to the point that it loses all credibility.
Just a mid-morning ramble, I guess. After all, I need something to justify procrastinating on my homework.
The Following User Says Thank You to Thunor For This Useful Post: RANDOL (02-07-2011)
The study proves it. The genetic flavoring of ADHD, that is. Check it out: The Cardiff University study showed CNS's of different types in the ADHD subject groups. The study, and the replication study groups, did NOT share the same chromosome abnormalities. They shared twice the CNV's with highest CNV concentrations on chromosome 16.
I'm going with multiple causes too. Let's clump all genetic causes ADHD into one genetic cause. Let's add "other issues such as lack of oxygen or brain damage in vitro are likely also causes of ADHD" as another cause. Pesticide and heavy metal poisoning as a third cause.
I believe brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation is my cause of ADHD.
Rh compatibility almost killed me at birth. I went without oxygen for so long the doctors thought serious brain damage had resulted. They were amazed that I apparently did not sustain any brain damage. I did.
My wife and I were watching old 8mm movies of me at an age I barely remember - between 3 & 5 yo. I always had one eye - my left eye - shut as I ran around playing outdoors. Why was my left eye always shut when outdoors exposed to bright sun light? Brain damage. I can't remember having one eye shut in sun light. However, some of my very earliest memories are of an inability to concentrate or selectively control my attention. I just could not do it.
In my case, I'll bet the neural network controls are physically damaged. Network controllers have neural correlates in the prefrontal cortex. The damaged controllers are the cause of my neurotransmission problems. I'll further bet abnormal chromosomes are not the primary cause and possibly not even a factor in my ADHD. Maybe.
I agree with everything you stated.
The Following User Says Thank You to addprogrammer For This Useful Post: RANDOL (02-07-2011)
I think everyone should have to have education or in short, everybody should be educated. Those who have mental illnesses like add/adhd should have education. Those who have physical illnesses like blindness should have education. And those who have financial illnesses should also have the right to education. Everyone of us should be educated. That is why those who have illnesses have their corresponding institution to teach education and at the same time treat the illness. < edited >
Last edited by hb-mod; 02-04-2011 at 02:37 AM.
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Bob, Me too at a young age had the one eye thing go on but to this day i still do it but very little with me always wearing sunglasses's outside lol but no brain damage here. Most of it was due to a scar on my eye which my eye Dr. says he doesnt know how it happend due to no tearing on the surface which leaves a jucy mystery lol, though I would share input thanks
The Following User Says Thank You to RANDOL For This Useful Post: addprogrammer (02-07-2011)
Jud, The problem with the education thing is that nobody will fund those programs these days with the bad economy at this time which leaves us as individules which have the disorders or providing care for those with the the same do the research our selves which it sucks. The awsome people on here sharing there info are those who that have ADHD and do there own research and for myself i do research for my son who is ADHD and i also share my info.. just a thought... thanks yall
As per your request in the WAIS-IV discussion thread, I will drop a note in here regarding practice and ADHD recovery.
As you so often, and very succinctly put it, neurons that fire together, wire together. This is completely true regarding skills performance, not only in ADHD individuals, but in everyone. Practice makes perfect, and skills unused absolutely atrophy, just like muscles. As a result of this fact, anyone that wants to see improvement in anything from general cognition to specific skills has to practice.
Practice can take various forms. These new 'brain training' programs that you see out there these days have their basis in real science. While they seem on their face to be pointless games and puzzles, practice of them, over time, has been shown to lead to real improvements in general cognition, working memory, general memory and problem solving skills. These programs will prove helpful if general progress is what you're looking for.
Should you be looking for progress in specific areas, and in specific skills, however, the only thing that's going to lead to improvement is practice of those actual skills. Reading, writing, arithmetic, spelling, vocabulary or any other practical skills will only improve through specific practice.
It's often spelled out here that the point of medication is to give us the focus to learn and practice the skills that we failed to learn as children. Some of us will, sadly, be medicated for life. Other's of us, however, can eventually stop taking meds, if we work hard enough at learning the skills that we're deficient in. So practice, practice, practice, and when you're done, practice. It may well be that meds will not be required lifelong.
Bob, I hope that's along the lines of what you were looking for. If it doesn't work out for you, let me know and I'll edit what's here, or clarify in a subsequent post.
The Following User Says Thank You to Thunor For This Useful Post: addprogrammer (02-08-2011)
I definitely agree with the "brain training" thing. And medication can help overcome both cognitive difficulties and fear-based difficulties, the things you have a mental block about because you've messed them up so many times before.
When I went on meds at 19, I had serious difficulties putting a paragraph together in writing. My grammar skills were fine, I could type, I just couldn't figure out what to say. This was the biggest reason I failed out of college the first time, I couldn't write history papers. Or lab reports. Or term papers for my music history class, etc. The only time I could write was under the most intensive deadline pressure, when fear and stress brought my neurotransmitters up to where they should have been and it all came together.
Depending on adrenaline to accomplish normal tasks is NOT a recipe for an orderly lifestyle. Sometimes I'd wait too long. Sometimes something would get in the way, or the adrenaline surge just wouldn't come, no matter how hard I tried.
They talk about long-time addicts having to learn skills all over again while sober. I was a lifelong adrenaline addict, learning to write sober.
And I did. I wrote a number of papers while entirely calm, on Dexedrine. And it taught me how to do it, and it helped me dismantle the mental blocks I'd built up around the task. And now, well, see post count. Got no issues with writing.
So writing was a skill I learned on the meds and can now do without them. Paying attention in a lecture-type setting? Still can't do it unless I take Adderall. But at this point in my life, I kinda don't care.
The Following User Says Thank You to janewhite1 For This Useful Post: addprogrammer (02-08-2011)
Practice makes perfect, and skills unused absolutely atrophy, just like muscles. As a result of this fact, anyone that wants to see improvement in anything from general cognition to specific skills has to practice.
Bob, I hope that's along the lines of what you were looking for.
The progress you have made is "through the roof." I'm amazed. I'm in awe of you.
Yes, it is exactly along the lines I am looking for.
Scope creep has taken my study of the "neural correlates" well past ADHD.ed.v.1.000 specs for its intended purpose. I tried my dangest to avoid scope creep knowing how it can derail any project into a perpetual state of incompletion.
The creep snuck in while I was searching for neurological evidence pro or con for ADHD's genetic connection. I had to search so deep I ended up jamming my head with volumes of neuro correlates I never intended to research.
Let me do a quick and dirty summary so I can call the "Neural Correletes" section complete.
My composite summary of two research reports that follow define a "working model" that explains the many symptom variations that we observe among us.
The ADHD phenotype results from the interaction of the person's genetic makeup and his or her environment. Several lines of evidence suggests that the ADHD genome is produced by the interaction of several genes each of a minor effect.
Phenotype can be expressed as ...
genotype + environment → phenotype
Phenotype can be described as the resultant observable characteristic or trait.
The bottom line:
Can the results from laboratory tests capable of detecting variant genes be used to correctly choose the appropriate medication for ADHD patients ON THE FIRST TRY?
The answer, my friend, is the subject of an in-progress study being conducted by the University of British Columbia.
Based on what I got jammed in my head, I'm optimistic that this study will yield positive findings. Certainly many more studies will be needed. I'm optimistic that the combined research along these lines will produce a set of diagnostic laboratory tests similar to those used by doctors that treat organic illness. The shrink will have his nurse take a blood sample, send it to the lab, the lab reports back "deletion variant found in SNAP25 gene and mutations found in the dopamine genes DRD1, 2, 4, 5."
Shrink reads the lab report and prescribes an amphetamine based medication. He knows this patient will not respond well to MPH based meds.
25% of all ADHD patients do NOT respond to any type of stimulant med. The lab reports "multiple abc gene variants, mutated norepi system genes."
The shrink prescribes "a non-stimulant med" that turns the trick on first try.
I call that progress. And it effectively summarizes all the stuff that got jammed in my head that resulted in near project death scoop creep.
It is done.
Now, I want to build on your "atrophied skills" remediation base. "Atrophied Skills" is the PERFECT description of what ADHD causes. Perfect, I said.