Banker, Heather, or any sub expert, please try to answer this for me...
Even though I know a good bit about the sub (being that I was on it), I never understood something...when the sub is used in a short term detox type setting, does it "cover up" withdrawals while your body actually goes through them or does it "prevent" the body from going through withdrawals? Do you understand what I am trying to ask? I am curious to know that...
Its me Over and I haven't corresponded with you for quite a while. I, like you have been going through the same old crap with Sub, relapse with hydros, etc. Please read my story-getting off hydro and sub.
I'm finally over the roller coaster and am 7 days clean since my last sub 1mg intake. It hasn't been easy, trust me. However, unfortunately, I had to get off the Sub with the help of 30 vicodins because of the withdrawls, the lethargy and insomnia was so bad. So I got smart and got a hold of 30 vicodins and did a slow taper that way to ease the withdrawls. It was still there but it was easier. But I did it and so can you, girlfriend!
Now to answer your questions. Yes, I believe it is a cover up, honestly. Because I've been through it both ways, I know the difference now. I see what the poster User has been saying all along. But then, I feel Sub did help me for the first few days because I don't know what I would have stop 35+ a day. Sometimes, I feel like I should have toughed it out. I remember one of my refills did not come thru an OP lst year and I was totally out. I was so bad in withdrawls that I still went to a kids birthday party because I had to. In retrospect, it was OK still, but the withdrawls from Sub are different, in a way. I can't explain it and only a person who has taken Sub can know. Do you know, I'm sure you know because you're the only other person like I on this damn roller coaster here.
So what I did prior to the last 30 Vicodins to help me with the Sub withdrawl. I had to taper off Sub immediately. In the last day, I took only powder chips off the Sub 8mg tab. On your last tabs, make sure you start cutting them up to tiny bits. Do NOT take them at all in the afternoon. Only the morning dose. Cut your dose every 36 hours, not daily. It doesn't work that way. I tried it too that way. Then taper every 36 hours to nothing. Then get off it.
Michelle - my doctor told me that (and keep in mind, he has told me a lot of things that wasn't true) but he said that once you take Sub, it totally kicks any remaining hydros off of those receptors and takes the place of the hydros on the receptors. I think this is why if you take it when you still have hydros in your system, you can go into acute withdrawals. So... I think that it removes the hydros and then takes their place so your body (brain) doesn't go into withdrawals because the Sub is there. I know it's going to be hard and I'm just very thankful that you wrote to us. Even if you don't say anything, just check in to say "I'm o.k. and hanging in there"... K? Take care and we all love you and are praying that God will lead you to exactly where you need to be right now to fight this illness.
Thank you Banker! Hope you are continuing to "climb that ladder!"
Thank you, too, Over! I do need to go back and re-read your post...I've read it but need to again because I can't remember your history. But, it sounds like we are in the same boat. Yes, sub withdrawals are unexplainable. One of those, "you have to be there or experience it yourself" to understand. I had to use "Darvocet" when I tried quitting the second time because of the withdrawals, but then that led to something else and led me back to square one...ya know? So, I don't think I can "control" using any type of narcotic to ease with withdrawals, so what do I do? Three kids? UGH!!!!!! It is like I said in an earlier post...I feel like I am on a never-ending merry-go-round and I am about to die from the nauseous...is that a good analogy? Thanks again for posting and I'd like to keep in touch- k?
I just re-read your whole thread and I think your boat is a little ahead of mine! I'll be brutally honest here and say that you seem more determined that I, too. As MUCH as I want sobriety and as MUCH as I hate what I am doing and as MANY times I have sobbed from being in the situation I am in, I can't seem to "let go," "say goodbye," "cut the ties"......understand? If I had a bottle of hydros here......right now......I would take them. And as much as that makes me want to vomit and as much as that disguists me......it is the dirty truth. And it sickens me!!! And I don't know what to do...........
And, let me agree with you on that, if someone is at a twenty plus and climbing habit and CANNOT stop......then they should seek help from sub, even though that is an opiate, it can save someone's life! Even though it has been extremely difficult for me, I would not want to discourage someone from not taking it, if it would save their life!!!!
Anyway, have a crying, sick baby......so me let go! Thanks again,
If I had a bottle of hydros here......right now......I would take them. And as much as that makes me want to vomit and as much as that disguists me......it is the dirty truth. And it sickens me!!! And I don't know what to do...........
Michelle, let me tell you something...what you wrote above is exactly what I would do if I had a bottle of pills, which is why I do not. It is the "dirty truth", and we all face it (some better than others), but your recognition of it is what will allow you to beat this. Hang in there.
Last edited by User 205000; 04-27-2004 at 12:21 PM.
M, I only tried to beat it once (and so far I have), but the reason is that it took me many years to admit to the problem. You, on the other hand, recognize the problem, where I either did not or would not. It took a "rock bottom" experience for me to make that admission, then I cold turkeyed a 30+ per day habit. Let me go back and review your story so that I can try to offer some constructive comments. In the meantime, can you give me a brief rundown of your story? Thanks
Was prescribed pain meds after birth of second child for migraines and took them as prescribed for months but took them often because I kept a headache. (My baby was premature and when he came home he had colic, stomach problems, hearing problems, etc....never slept and cried 20 out of a 24 hour day. Constant headahce!!!) Became physically dependant but did not abuse them (for the "energy") until my third child was born. Then I began abusing because I felt like "supermom" on them......
Saw an addictionologist after I tried to cold-turkey and taper several times and always failed and he put me on the subutex. Knew that was a form of an opiate and never wanted to become "stable" on a high dose because I did not want to be dependant on that, so, stuck to a very low dose and craved the entire time I took the sub and finally stopped the sub and went back on hydros for awhile. Went back to the sub after my little hydro binge and took it a couple of weeks and tried quitting and the lethargy and lack of energy got the best of me and tried to "help withdrawals" by taking Darvocet and just never was able to stop taking anything, so, here I am, taking sub every now and then because of the overall feeling of BLAH!!!
M, I hate to do this to you, but I have to leave for a meeting, and won't be back until late, but I WILL think about you and get back in the morning. One quick question: Were you ever taking enough sub to stabilize yourself? The lethargy and blahs do go away, but let me think about it more. Talk to you tomorrow. Ask Banker if she thinks you were on enough sub for it to work...doesn't sound like it to me.
You have been told what to do and yet you wont do it. Why is that? Do you really want to continue on this roundabout for years on end. Mind you - it wont last that long. By then your husband will have left you and taken the children with him. You will no longer have your beautiful home and heaven alone knows where you will be. Use your imagination.
Come on Michelle - its time you took the bull by the horns before all those unthinkable things happen to you.
I have heard people spell it out to you. What are you waiting for?
OK - so your parents cannot help you here. Well - thats no surprise - my parents could not deal with my addiction either. But you have a husband who made certain vows when he married you - "in sickness and in health". He loves you and will help you. At the moment he must be worried sick. He must be worried at leaving his children in the charge of a woman who is more often than not under the influence of drugs. Do you drive these children around while full of pills? Well - that would make wonderful headlines in your local newspaper: "Well known church member and mother caught driving while under the influence of drugs...."You must confide in your husband and tell him the whole sordid tale. That is all you need to begin with. Then you need the help of AA or NA or some other group of people (perhaps within your own Church? Your pastor? Addiction is no respecter of people. There will be people in your Church who suffer from this disease of addiction too). You cannot do this alone as you have been trying to do. You cannot. You continue to bang your head off a brick wall in so doing. I have been away for a while - and I come back and see you have not in any way changed. Why is that? You have proved over and over to yourself that you cannot do this alone. You say you are beaten. Yes, lass, you are beaten.......... but there is a lot lower you can sink if you are not prepared to put up a fight for your very soul. Is it so hard for you to admit you have a serious addiction problem? Millions of other people have. If you just make one step towards getting help there will be many hands reaching out to give you that support that you must have. But - the first step has to come from you. Its time now to throw in the towel. I know you have spoken with your father and he thinks this will break your mother's heart? Well - its going to really break her heart and humiliate her more than you can imagine if your addicition goes on unchecked. It will progress. Dont doubt that for a second. Addiction is a family illness and it is progressive. Not only your mothers feelings will be hurt. It already affects every member of your family. Don't kid yourself that it does not. In spite of what you might think - your children are being affected by their mum who is "out of her skull" most of the time on opiates and if not out of her skull then in withdrawal. In any event they do not have a "normal" mum and a "normal " home and "normal upbringing" and they are absorbing all this in a subtle way. You cannot fool children. This will have far reaching consequences on these children - and so you must - for them and your mother - but most of all - for your own sake give up.
Can you not see the writing on the wall?
Look how Rosie was in the exact same position as yourself. Rosie knew that she was an addict - she took advice - she attends meetings and she has now been thro detox and is trying to deal with all her issues now. I am sure she will tell you that it has not been easy - but it can be done. Ask Rosie for her advice -ask her the real hard facts. You have done none of these things. And for the life of me I cant understand why you choose to continue like this. Clearly you do not like the "you" you have become. I suspect you despise the "Michelle" you have become. Come on Michelle - do something - do it now - today.
Dont give another thought to your mother - she will survive! Would she rather wait until she found you alone, without children, abandoned and in either hospital (if you are lucky) or jail? It is you that you must now focus on. You must get better for you. Then everything else will fall into place.
You spoke of attending an addictionologist who is himself a recovering addict - well - did you make the appt with him? Already it was suggested to you that you get rid of the entire battery of doctors and quasi doctors that you attend - and chose one doctor who you trust and let him help you through this. Personally, I think you may have an issue too with xanax - but your doctor will know to advise you in this too - I hope. If not there are plenty of people in here to help. I see that Jennita has come off ativan and Howard is at present tapering off benzos by way of valium. There is so much experience in these very forums and therefore so much help available to you - if you just reach out and ask. People are just dying to help you - but the first move has to come from you.
Michelle - everyone has been watching you now for such a long time - becoming more bashed and bruised during your tussles with these pills. Your own self esteem must be about rock bottom by now........... but you can put a stop to all that now.
So Michelle - well - no sugary coating from me. This is too serious - if your addiction is left unchecked it will eventually consume you.
Come on Michelle - the ball is in your court............. let's play recovery? On your team you have Kinda, Rosie, Lynn, Alice, Yinksy and many more. I would say that is one formidable team!
All just waiting for you to get the ball in play!
Cheers mate, miste ann, on your posting. Brutally honest, but these are serious questions that only she can answer. Only she can delve into her own soul and do this for herself and especially for her children.
Michelle, I'm thinking about you and rooting for you. Trust me, I know those thoughts you are pondering are the same thoughts that motiviated me to get off the roller coaster.
Michelle! I just got up and have to quickly make it look like I did something for hubby, lol. but as to your original question, here is my response: I had no w/d while I was on my max dose of the sub (6 mg in one day) At the end of my taper, it hit me, hard. I had really bad, umm tummy problems, know what I mean, and got shaky, etc. So it does delay the w/d. HOWEVER, I never had the RLS, which was nice. Now for me, I was also going through a benzo w/d, so who knows what was what. I never vomited, either.
There is so much I want to tell you and with all this sleep it has been hard to get the time to sit down and do it. Let me tell you that I believe that was the only way. The hospital was really really nice. The other people in there included 2 nurses and a doctor's wife. The doctor let me see my kids every single day (he believes a "shot" every 24 hours works better w/ the little ones). I don't know if I would have made it without that.
My most important realization learned? If I continue to use these drugs, I WILL lose my kids, my family, my home, everything. Another way they put it is "Anything you put between you and your sobriety, you WILL lose." And recovery is all about a relationship with God as you know him, keeping him part of every moment. You say you cannot imagine the rest of your life without pills. Well, I can't either. My moment of clarity was about 4 days into my treatment when I called my husband and told him where my stash of about 150 pills was. I felt sad as the nurse ground up all the pills I had brought with me. The only thing I can say is that today I am not going to use any pills. I can't do it any other way but moment to moment, hour to hour, day by day. I love my children and my husband. I will not be able to keep them if I go down that path. Do you know how many women I met who had been in terrible accidents while under the influence with their kids in the car? It is just a matter of time. If you keep using, you WILL end up either: in jail, in an institution, or dead. Period. If you put your sobriety first, the rest will come back first class.
I will tell you more later or tomorrow. Michelle, I love you and you have helped other people, including me, so much! You were always there when I needed you. And I still do.
One more thing, the first 90 days, you might not feel that good (that's why AA and NA say 90 meetings in 90 days). It takes that long for your brain to begin to heal and feel hopeful and even longer to fully recover. But the only way to get there is to stick it out, and no one can do that on their own, sweetie.
Okay, I am sure you read my original post, mstiann, but after I had time to calm down from reading your post, I would like to re-write mine.
First, I have a good idea who you may be and if I wrong, forgive me, and humor me in telling me who you are being that you said "I have told you what to do..." okay?
Second, I know, know, know I have a problem. You confronted me as if I am sticking my head in the sand in full blown denial. That is not the case. You say I am doing nothing to help my situation (meetings, counselors, etc.) and that is just not true. I have recently confided in my pastor and a close friend whose husband is an alcoholic, have attended about five meetings (mind you, it is extremely hard with three babies) and am reading two books currently on overcoming addiction- so PLEASE don't talk to me as if I denying my problem, and yes, I can say it is a problem...wow...bet you thought I couldn't do that, huh?
Third, where in the hell did you come up with I have a problem with Xanax. That makes me think I know who you are. As of the last few days (seven exactly), I have had no anxiety or panic attacks (until I read your post) and have made it just fine without any Xanax. Not everyone that takes Xanax becomes addicted. So, don't over-label me!
And last, ofcourse I have made poor decisions when it comes to my children, but when your "attack my motherhood" as I feel you just did, my blood boils. I love my children more than my own life and devote every ounce of being I have to them and give them every second of my time. My husband and I break our backs to provide our children with a loving, caring, nuturing home and just because I do have a problem does not mean I am "out of my skull" and ruining my children's lives. Please, don't go there again. If I was driving around loaded with them in the car...sure, fire away! I am not that stupid!
I really don't know what else to say to you except that I REALLY don't respond well to brutal, tough love type posts. Sorry! Guess that is the way I am wired- others may love it- more power to you and them then! You don't have sugar coat words to me and continue to say "oh...it is going to be okay.." you can tell me like it is, but you don't have to be "over the top" with it and make sure you have all your facts straight first!
And don't worry, I will not advise any others any more as I guess I am coming across as a hypocrite. I was just trying to help even though I was "sick" sometimes myself. But, I won't let that happen again- k?
Some people just like to stir things up. Isn't it chicken ***** that "mistiann" had to make up a username just to tell you off. Her post is a very thinly veiled attack... anyone can see it a mile away!!
Please please please don't think another thing of it, k? I've read many of your posts for months now so even though you don't know me very well, I feel I know you. You are a GREAT mother!! We have so much in common with our little ones being around the same age, etc. Although right now I think I'm waaaaayyyy down in the swamp when you are wading in a puddle, if that makes any sense.
Just hang in there. I just feel like you are so close to making sobriety happen for you. This person who posted that UGLY post was obviously trying to hurt you, especially since the username has only one post... made it up because they didn't have the cahones to speak to you for real. Mistiann actually needs to "get real" with herself as far as I'm concerned. (Post # 2 is going to be to me reaming me out! LOL)
Michelle, I too agree with your post. And personally, it ticked me off that someone would think it was okay to write such a harsh post to you when you're already feeling bad enough. Obvisouly, they don't know you very well!!!!!!!!! You have admitted almost in every post that you are an addict so your not in denial!!! I'm sure that your not sitting at home enjoying the fact that you can't figure out just what and when you need to do something.
You know that my heart goes out to you and I pray for you every night. It's just hard when you have three kids and trying to get clean. I'm right there with you. I do hope that you decide soon what route you're going to take to get clean. But only you know when that time will be. Until then, I (alone with many others) will be here to support you 100%.
Oh, Michelle, I only have a minute, but I know that no one could question your love for your children. I just want to say that I have always put my children way before me, but in this one instance I have to put being clean ahead of them, and it will benefit them. I have to reread the post in question, as I think I just skimmed through it, but maybe that is what they meant. I will go without eating, sleeping, exercising, anything for my kids, they are my life. But this is the one time I will have to put being clean ahead of them and it is the best thing for them as is evidenced by many many many people who have trodden this same path.
Please don't get offended, Michelle, we love you so so so much.
Thanks for making me feel as if I wasn't crazy for feeling "attacked" just then! I KNOW I am sensitive (that's the way God made me ) but that poster did not have her facts straight and made some hurtful jabs in my opinion. BUT, let's just leave it alone from here on out- K? I am pretty sure I know who it is anyway....
I am so very glad you are back here and sounding GOOD! Let me know if I can help you in any way (even though I am a little "sick" still myself- I promise I am working on it and taking steps to get there)! I just don't won't to come across as being a hypocrite...really! But, I am a good listerner, too! ANYTIME...k?
Michelle, please know that you are loved, I mean it! Even by those who might mistakenly think a tough love approach is what you need. (Doesn't work for me either, although I never had a hard time with anything that was posted to me on the board--just can't take any tough love from hubby, knowwhatImean).
I really don't take you giving anyone here advise as being a hypocrit. If you've been around this board for a while, you would know the answers just by supporting your friends and seeing them through their trials and tribulations. Just because you are not at a point where you are quite ready does not mean that you won't be soon or that you don't know what you are talking about.
Who says that you have to follow ANYONE's schedule as to what and when you are supposed to do this. You are a big girl and make your own decisions every single day! You and I both have the right to our dignity, even though we are addicts... it doesn't give anyone the license to trash talk us!
Hang in there. I need your advise and support and so do many others here! We're in this together, right? And we are all ill... just at different stages of our illness.
P.S. Thanks for saying I sounded good. I really feel pretty good and HOPEFUL for the first time since Kayleigh was taken from me. I'm going to beat this thing!