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Old 04-27-2004, 10:53 AM   #1
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kayleighsmom HB User
Phil!

I'm so glad you "resurfaced". I've had a hellish time with these hydros and I heard that you were an excellent and kind person who helped people taper.

I was put in the hospital about 3 or 4 weeks ago. My mind is such a fog right now. But I was quickly back to my 19+ a day habit. I desperately need to come off these hydros and I feel the fight BIG TIME right now. I have lost my baby because she was born addicted and lost my other 4 children for a while. Thankfully, all but the baby are back at home! (THANKS FOR YOUR PRAYERS EVERYONE!!!)

As everyone already knows, addiction happens to everyone in all "classes" of life. We are pretty much, on the outside, the Brady Bunch type.

I have managed to taper down to 10 1/2 hydro 10s. My taper plan was to reduce every 3 days and I have just enough pills for that right now. I have one more script of about 100 if I need more to go a little slower. So far I've done this: 19, 12,12,12, 10 1/2, 10 1/2 and today will take 10 1/2. Then I plan to go 9, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7,7, 7 and so on. Do you think that is too fast? Any help would be appreciated. As soon as I get a clean urine test, there will be a hearing to get my daughter back. PLEASE HELP if you can. I welcome all replies, not just phil's.

Thanks,

Kayleighsmom

P.S. I do have residual pain from cancer, but I hope to cope on my own or with non-narcotic pain relievers.

 
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:15 AM   #2
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Re: Phil!

KayleighsMom...It is wonderful to see you on the Board again! All of us have been so very concerned. I hope that Phil and others have some good info for you! Welcome back....
TwinAlice, breathing a big sigh of relief

 
Old 04-27-2004, 11:35 AM   #3
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John 808 HB User
Re: Phil!

I am glad to see you again, too, Phil!

And you, too, Kayleighsmom! You gave us all a scare and I am so thankful everything is alright and most of your children are home! My prayers will be with you until your baby is home though.

God bless each of you and take care,
michelle

 
Old 04-27-2004, 12:06 PM   #4
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Posts: 952
Philster2003 HB User
Re: Phil!

Hi Kay;

OK, so far so good.

How has the taper been so far?

Have you suffered much or has it been relatively not to bad?

How many and how often do you take the 10 1/2 hydro's each day, for example are you taking 2 every 4 hrs or 3 every 7 hrs or.....? I'll try and help as much as possible and you are right we are all, no matter where we come from or our station in life, susceptible to addition. I would never have thought I would be on that list but I am and I'm now drug free going on, hmmmm, starting my 17 month (1yr 4 months) Its been a truly blessed and wonderful ride being drug free. I can also tell you that it still requires me to fight this everyday, not a day goes by without me thinking about pills once or twice or the "High" but I'm not going beck to the dark side, not after what I went through or what I put my bride and daughters through. The natural "High
is quite nice.

Glad to be back and helping, just needed a break and work was a bear lately lol

phil

 
Old 04-27-2004, 12:21 PM   #5
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kayleighsmom HB User
Re: Phil!

Michelle and Alice~ Thanks for you replies and prayers! They do work and I'm here to prove it! My kids have been put through the wringer though and I will always be guilty and ashamed at what I have put them through. They don't deserve this life I'm giving them! Their ages are 11, 7, 3, 2 and 7 months (that's my baby Kayleigh). Please keep them in your prayers as well. I can't thank you enough!!

Phil~ I usually take 1 in the morning and then try to go half every 3 hours so that by the end of the day on my last 2 doses I take 3 or 4 at once. I do that because I was taking more in the evening then at other times because I could deal with "feeling cruddy" during the day, but once the older 2 are home from school... I gotta try and put my best foot forward. I think that's backward thinking? Huh? How messed up am I? Ugh! I feel like if I don't keep up those last 2 doses like that I would suffer withdrawals because of the tolerance thing. Correct me if that appears to be wrong!

Sorry that things have been rough for you with the job and everything. But talk about breathing a sigh of relief when I actually saw you posting! I honest to goodness have been looking just for you specifically because of all the great things I've heard about you. You've got a reputation!! :-)

Thanks for any help you can offer! It also is much appreciated!

Kayleigh's mom

Last edited by kayleighsmom; 04-27-2004 at 12:22 PM.

 
Old 04-27-2004, 01:17 PM   #6
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Philster2003 HB User
Re: Phil!

Kay;

OK I think I get it. We need to get you to a more even schedule if you want to take a nice taper. Say like 1.5 pills every 3 hrs to get you stabilized or 1.25 every 3 hrs, probably 1.5 is better to start. Think you can do that? If not it may be difficult to taper. You didn't answer these two questions I asked?

How has the taper been so far?

Have you suffered much or has it been relatively not to bad?

Let me know and we'll try and get something thrown together. It will test you and challenge your inner strength but if your committed and it sounds like you are and you will be strong you can do this.

Fate has a strange way of working out doesn't it?

phil

 
Old 04-27-2004, 01:27 PM   #7
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Re: Phil!

Sorry I didn't answer the other 2 questions. I was just so excited to see you posted to me! LOL

The taper so far hasn't been bad. I feel kinda tired and shaky through the day, but I think when I get to a lower dose in the evening, I'll be having w/ds in the middle of the night? I'm thinking you are right about taking more throughout the day and less at night to keep a steady stream in my body so that it doesn't have so many ups and downs. Is that what you are saying?

I do appreciate your help and honest to goodness when you say that thing about being determined and how fate works... I started crying. I need your help very badly. I cannot be away from my baby much longer. The mental anguish is more than I can bear.

On a side note: I knew that my husband was posting on here when he thought I was going to "go on to another life" but he came back and erased it. I guess he didn't want me to see what he wrote. But thank you guys so much for helping him through the nightmare I put him through.

Also, I wanted to tell you, Phil, that I'm also on Neurontin and flexeril and I do have about 30 valiums (have only taken one or two of those in several weeks. I don't want to get in the habit of taking those. They only make me sleepy so there is no abuse potential for me. I was planning on taking those when I get farther into my taper for sleep or restless legs only. The flexeril I use at times when I'm trying to potentiate the half tablet doses I take during the day. Did I answer everything?

Thanks so much!

Kayleigh's mom

 
Old 04-27-2004, 01:33 PM   #8
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kayleighsmom HB User
Re: Phil!

One more thing: I'm terribly worried about my sleep. With 4 children at home, I need to try and not miss much sleep as I'm really trying hard on keep things "even" for them. Dinner at 6:00, bedtime at 8:30, etc. I need them to depend on me like the once did because that's the only thing that's keeping me positive in this huge mess that I made.

Thanks,

Kayleighsmom

 
Old 04-27-2004, 02:04 PM   #9
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Philster2003 HB User
Re: Phil!

Kay:

OK here you go, hope this is OK for you. As for sleep use Benedryl, it is used for sleep problems. Also Flexeril is also used for sleep problems so don't stop taking that abruptly or take it to help with sleep if you need to. The valium can help with sleep also but like you thought you need to be careful with valium as this is not a drug you want to deal with withdrawal symptoms, much worse the opiates. When I finally went cold turkey I took max dose per day of valium and all I did was sleep, not to practical if you have to take care of children but if not that will help towards the end or rough spots.

======================================== ==================

Iíll try and help and given the info you supplied give you a taper schedule that I would use if I was in your situation. Sound OK?

First we need to get your erratic pill intake schedule stabilized and consistent. To do this you need to start taking the pills on say a 3 hr interval. So if you go to 3 hr interval, take 1.5 pills every 3 hrs. That totals 12 pills per day. Hopefully going to consistent interval will not cause any level of withdrawal. If this schedule works without withdrawal then we can start a taper schedule from the baseline. You will need a pill cutter, if you donít have one you can get one at the pharmacy or a grocery store pharmacy area for around $2.00. We doing OK so far?

Here is the schedule Iíd use to taper from 12 10mg pills per day:

You will need an interval timer like a kitchen timer or medication timer. The Timex Iron Man watch has auto repeat interval timer built in. In this taper the time between doses is increased each day with occasional dose adjustments. You really have to make sure you hit the times dead on thus the need for the timer. You have to wake yourself up in the middle of the night.
Initial dose, 4 pills each interval
Day Interval Dose
1 3:00 1.5 pills
2 3:15 1.4 pills
3 3:30 1.5 pills
4 3:45 1.5 pills
5 4:00 1.5 pills (9 pills per day or a 25% reduction)
6 4:20 1.5 pills
7 4:40 1.5 pills
8 5:00 1.5 pills
9 5:20 1.5 pills
10 5:40 1.5 pills
11 6:00 1.5 pills (6 pills per day or a 50% reduction)
======================================== ==========
now reduce the dose to 3/4 pills at each interval and begin with day 12 below having a 75% reduction at the end of 22 days and only taking 3 pills per day.
Day Interval Dose
12 3:00 .75 pills
13 3:15 .75 pills
14 3:30 .75 pills
15 3:45 .75 pills
16 4:00 .75 pills
17 4:20 .75 pills
18 4:40 .75 pills
19 5:00 .75 pills
20 5:20 .75 pills
21 5:40 .75 pills
22 6:00 .75 pills (3 pills per day or a 75% reduction)
======================================== ============
now reduce the dose to 1/2 pill at each interval and begin with day 23 below. At the end of the third period you will be down to 2 pills per day and 83% reduction.
Day Interval Dose
23 4:00 .5 pill
24 4:15 .5 pill
25 4:30 .5 pill
26 4:45 .5 pill
27 5:00 .5 pill
28 5:20 .5 pill
29 5:40 .5 pill
30 6:00 .5 pill (2 pills per day or a 83% reduction)

======================================== ==========
now reduce the dose to 1/4 pill at each interval and begin with day 31below. At the end of the fourth period you will be down to 1 pill per day and 92% reduction
Day Interval Dose
31 4:00 .25 pill
32 4:15 .25 pill
33 4:30 .25 pill
34 4:45 .25 pill
35 5:00 .25 pill
36 5:20 .25 pill
37 5:40 .25 pill
38 6:00 .25 pill (1 pills per day or a 92% reduction)

======================================== ==========
For the final taper down, take 1/4 pill taking the interval from 6 hours to 12 hours by 1/2 hour increment a day.
Day Interval Dose
39 6:30 1/4 pill
40 7:00 1/4 pill
41 8:30 1/4 pill
42 9:00 1/4 pill
43 9:30 1/4 pill
44 10:00 1/4 pill
45 10:30 1/4 pill
46 11:00 1/4 pill
53 11:30 1/4 pill
54 12:00 1/4 pill
======================================== ============
If you can stop taking the pills at this point then do so, if not take a 1/4 pill each day for 3 days, then ľ pill every other day for 3 days , t

 
Old 04-27-2004, 03:19 PM   #10
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 867
no patience HB User
Re: Phil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philster2003
Kay:

OK here you go, hope this is OK for you. As for sleep use Benedryl, it is used for sleep problems. Also Flexeril is also used for sleep problems so don't stop taking that abruptly or take it to help with sleep if you need to. The valium can help with sleep also but like you thought you need to be careful with valium as this is not a drug you want to deal with withdrawal symptoms, much worse the opiates. When I finally went cold turkey I took max dose per day of valium and all I did was sleep, not to practical if you have to take care of children but if not that will help towards the end or rough spots.

======================================== ==================

Iíll try and help and given the info you supplied give you a taper schedule that I would use if I was in your situation. Sound OK?

First we need to get your erratic pill intake schedule stabilized and consistent. To do this you need to start taking the pills on say a 3 hr interval. So if you go to 3 hr interval, take 1.5 pills every 3 hrs. That totals 12 pills per day. Hopefully going to consistent interval will not cause any level of withdrawal. If this schedule works without withdrawal then we can start a taper schedule from the baseline. You will need a pill cutter, if you donít have one you can get one at the pharmacy or a grocery store pharmacy area for around $2.00. We doing OK so far?

Here is the schedule Iíd use to taper from 12 10mg pills per day:

You will need an interval timer like a kitchen timer or medication timer. The Timex Iron Man watch has auto repeat interval timer built in. In this taper the time between doses is increased each day with occasional dose adjustments. You really have to make sure you hit the times dead on thus the need for the timer. You have to wake yourself up in the middle of the night.
Initial dose, 4 pills each interval
Day Interval Dose
1 3:00 1.5 pills
2 3:15 1.4 pills
3 3:30 1.5 pills
4 3:45 1.5 pills
5 4:00 1.5 pills (9 pills per day or a 25% reduction)
6 4:20 1.5 pills
7 4:40 1.5 pills
8 5:00 1.5 pills
9 5:20 1.5 pills
10 5:40 1.5 pills
11 6:00 1.5 pills (6 pills per day or a 50% reduction)
======================================== ==========
now reduce the dose to 3/4 pills at each interval and begin with day 12 below having a 75% reduction at the end of 22 days and only taking 3 pills per day.
Day Interval Dose
12 3:00 .75 pills
13 3:15 .75 pills
14 3:30 .75 pills
15 3:45 .75 pills
16 4:00 .75 pills
17 4:20 .75 pills
18 4:40 .75 pills
19 5:00 .75 pills
20 5:20 .75 pills
21 5:40 .75 pills
22 6:00 .75 pills (3 pills per day or a 75% reduction)
======================================== ============
now reduce the dose to 1/2 pill at each interval and begin with day 23 below. At the end of the third period you will be down to 2 pills per day and 83% reduction.
Day Interval Dose
23 4:00 .5 pill
24 4:15 .5 pill
25 4:30 .5 pill
26 4:45 .5 pill
27 5:00 .5 pill
28 5:20 .5 pill
29 5:40 .5 pill
30 6:00 .5 pill (2 pills per day or a 83% reduction)

======================================== ==========
now reduce the dose to 1/4 pill at each interval and begin with day 31below. At the end of the fourth period you will be down to 1 pill per day and 92% reduction
Day Interval Dose
31 4:00 .25 pill
32 4:15 .25 pill
33 4:30 .25 pill
34 4:45 .25 pill
35 5:00 .25 pill
36 5:20 .25 pill
37 5:40 .25 pill
38 6:00 .25 pill (1 pills per day or a 92% reduction)

======================================== ==========
For the final taper down, take 1/4 pill taking the interval from 6 hours to 12 hours by 1/2 hour increment a day.
Day Interval Dose
39 6:30 1/4 pill
40 7:00 1/4 pill
41 8:30 1/4 pill
42 9:00 1/4 pill
43 9:30 1/4 pill
44 10:00 1/4 pill
45 10:30 1/4 pill
46 11:00 1/4 pill
53 11:30 1/4 pill
54 12:00 1/4 pill
======================================== ============
If you can stop taking the pills at this point then do so, if not take a 1/4 pill each day for 3 days, then ľ pill every other day for 3 days , t
WOW phil you really know your sh-t !!!!!!

Last edited by no patience; 04-27-2004 at 03:20 PM.

 
Old 04-27-2004, 07:39 PM   #11
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Posts: 194
kayleighsmom HB User
Re: Phil!

Thanks so much Phil! That definitely sounds like a doable plan. One question though, is the flexeril addictive? I have the 5mg pills and I take them pretty much daily with my hydro. The valiums I have are also the 5 mg ones. I also have about 15 of the vicodin (5 mgs) that are score so it should be ease to do the .25 mg without busting up a 10 into 4 peices.

I'm not sure how many pills I have left, so I'm going to do a count in the morning to make sure I have enough.

Thanks again and I'll keep you updated on my progress. I'm so inspired and hopeful now. I know I can beat this!

Kayleighsmom

 
Old 04-28-2004, 04:14 AM   #12
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Posts: 1,193
Banker HB User
Re: Phil!

I am SO glad you are back on the board... not so glad that you relapsed but it happens to the best of us.

I know I'm probably going to get slammed for this but I wanted to mention something to you. IF you took Suboxone, would you be able to get your baby back? Do you know what that is? It's an opiate but it doesn't give you a high but it also is prescribed for chronic relapsers and it has saved my life.

You really did give us all a scare. I was worried sick about you and your family. I just cried and cried when I found out so I'm just trying to help. Tapering is not easy, at all. You basically have to have full control over these pills for the next 60 days. There is no doubt in my mind that you can do it if you really, really are ready to stop right now. However, can you wait 60 days before having a urine test? I just know how much you have struggled... actually, I don't know because I haven't been in your shoes. I can't imagine not having my children so I can't say 'I know how you feel' because I don't. However, I can relate to the addiction taking control of my every move and the only way I could stop was Suboxone. However, there have been lots of people who have followed Phil's plan and have done wonderfully.

Can you just check on it to see if you could take Suboxone and still get the baby back? This is just a thought and I'm really not trying to discourage you. I'm trying to help because Suboxone has been such a life saver to me.

Everyone is different and everyone has their own way of getting off of pills... It's just that I wanted to make sure you knew of all of your options. The only thing is, I'm not sure if Suboxone IS an option for you because of the drug test. My doctor once told me that if I took a drug test for work or anything, that Sub would not show up. However, my doc has told me many things that have not been true so I wouldn't trust would he says... I would call someone to find out.

Again, I really do care about you and I'm just trying to make sure you understand what is out there to help us chronic relapsers... not saying you can't do the taper because I know you can.. you've already decreased a lot. Also, are you attending aa/na meetings? I believe this is an absolute MUST when tapering. You've got to have some support and they are a great place to do it. It will also prove to the court that you are doing everything you can to get off of these pills.

Again, these are just my thoughts. I want you to have all of your family back in tact and I know Suboxone has done that for me. I am going to support you, no matter what way you choose to do this. I know you CAN do it and I know you WILL because I know how important your children are. Also, I wanted you to know that you should be very thankful for having such a wonderful husband. He loves and cares for you so much and I know you do him as well.... just another reason to get off of the poison pills they call hydros.

I'm SO happy that you are here and getting help. Keep up the great work and again, I'm very proud of you for fighting this fight with the best attitude you can have and that is that you WILL get your daughter back. I know this will happen!!!!!

 
Old 04-29-2004, 05:58 AM   #13
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Philster2003 HB User
Re: Phil!

Hey Kay, how we doing?

phil

 
Old 04-29-2004, 06:26 AM   #14
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kayleighsmom HB User
Re: Phil!

Hello!

Banker, I'm actually considering sub if only for short term use, like a week detox and not long term. Only because 60 days seems like an etermity since I'm only on day 2. I've been this long without her, it's hard to imagine another day, week, month... if you know what I mean. Or just plain ole' ct!

Phil, the taper is going pretty well so far. The only trouble I have is waking in the middle of the night. I'm such a hard sleeper that I slept through my alarm and only woke up once because my 2 year old needed something. Then I was like, oh crud I need to take a pill! So the middle of the night thing is definitely going to be a struggle. I'm keeping positive and keeping up with the taper schedule pretty well. I know that as far as fighting the good fight, I can do this, but wondering if I should just make it a little faster and deal with the w/ds? Or just go ct and be sick for a week or two, then I could petition the court and have my daughter back before the summer. How awesome would that be?

It kills me that she won't recognize me and I hope that she can adapt well into our family when she comes home as well as the other children. I just want my life back!

I'll continue with the taper for now, but I need to make some hard decisions very soon. I am attending meetings, but I'm still so physically weak from the cancer and stuff so it's VERY hard. But it's hard for everyone right?

I don't know what my husband told you, but did you know that she is a miracle baby? I was in the middle of cancer treatment when we found out I was pregnant with her. Was on birth control and everything. When I found out she was there, I was already done with my last chemo treatment. They told me she would most likely be deformed and advised an abortion! I couldn't do it! She was born and looked so perfect. Beautiful head full of dark brown hair and olive skin. I fell so in love!

Ok so I probably shouldn't go there if I don't want to get depressed or something. Thanks for listening and caring and Phil, you are an ANGEL and I do believe you came back right at the right time to help me out. You're advice and concern may be what will save my family! How could I possibly show you my gratitude?

 
Old 04-29-2004, 08:34 AM   #15
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Posts: 952
Philster2003 HB User
Re: Phil!

Kay; No doubt taper is hard, and I was able to pull it off but in reality not many can. Hate to be honest but it is what it is.

To go CT from 100mgs per day would be rough, doable but rough. I know when I got down to 20mg per day I just couldn't stand it any longer and went CT lol From the inpatient side of the house.

Think about tapering down to 50mgs per day and then go CT if your in a hurry. I've done CT from 50 mgs per day and its not to bad. Once you get to day 4 its all on the up and by 6 or 7 things are fairly nice. Its just days 1-3 that will be a real pain (literally lol)

Just throwing thoughts out, think it over and feel free to ask questions or give your thoughts. No harm no foul at this point, all ideas are good ones.

phil

 
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