Prof Malcolm Lader
Psycho-pharmacology
King's College, London
"It is more difficult to withdraw people from benzodiazepines than it is from heroin"
"The withdrawal symptoms you get are so intolerable that people have a great deal of trouble coming off"
"with benzodiazepines a proportion of patients go on to long term withdrawal and they have very unpleasant symptoms for month after month"
****************************************
“It is a tragedy that (these steps) are needed 50 years after benzodiazepines were first introduced. They could have been foreseen and prevented but instead the skeleton was locked away in the cupboard for many years. Now we are faced with worms that are crawling out of the woodwork including not only the problems of long-term prescribed users but also the increasing spectre of illicit benzodiazepine abuse.”
Professor H. Ashton Newcastle University
****************************************
“Perhaps a third of all drugs are now prescribed for their placebo effect, and sedative-hypnotic drugs much more than most.”
Charles Medawar Social Audit
“ For years, most doctors have assumed that benzodiazepines must have worked because patients kept taking them…..thus dependence has been reinforced – as has the belief that these drugs can go on working for years.”Charles Medawar Social Audit.
****************************************
“Drug company research and development often serves marketing strategies more than sound science or patients’ safety.” JS Cohen MD
“More than half of the experts on FDA advisory committees have financial relationships with pharmaceutical companies, that will be helped or hurt by their decisions.”USA Today
“An industry so important to public health and so heavily subsidized and protected by government has social responsibilities that should not be totally overshadowed by its drive for profits.”
Dr M. Angell New England Journal of Medicine.
“When doctors irrationally deny or dismiss (patients) honest complaints, the message is clear : Doctors first allegiance is not to their patients but to the medications they prescribe.”Dr JS Cohen.
****************************************
“ Increasing numbers of people have been turned into drug addicts through legal prescriptions which perhaps suits the politicians and multi-national bureaucrats as well as the drug companies for it ensures an uncomplaining and docile community which is easy to administer, manage and manipulate...tranquillisers are more addictive than heroin."
Dr Vernon Coleman
****************************************
Phil Woolas MP
Depurty Leader House of Commons
(on the subject of benzos - 12.2.04)
"These drugs are responsible for more pain, unhappiness and damage than anything else in our society"
“The story of benzodiazepines is of awesome proportions and has been described as a national scandal. The impact is so large that it is too big for governments, regulatory authorities and the pharmaceutical industry to address head on, so the scandal has been swept under the carpet."
Phil Woolas M.P. Deputy Leader House of Commons
****************************************
"If there's a pill, then pharmaceutical companies will find a disease for it." Jeremy Laurance, The Independent, April 17, 2002
**************************************** The Committee on Safety of Medicines (1988) gave Guidelines to all doctors that benzodiazepine drugs should be used for 2/4 weeks only.
Barry Haslam. Brain-damaged by overprescription of Ativan.
“Not only did doctors not keep to the CSM Guidelines but their inept and atrocious ‘clinical judgement’ coupled with their arrogance, has of today resulted in creating 1.2 million iatrogenic benzodiazepine drug addicts in the UK – The Lunatics are running the Asylum.”
Thank you. That is so scary. This is why I do not want to put myself through any additional torture at this time after detoxing from suboxone. I only take 1 mg/day so as long as my Dr. is willing to prescribe it and I have no adverse affects.
But that does anger me at the same time. Patients often don't know and trust their Drs. as to what they "need" to alleviate a problem.
You got their number over there in the U.K. Keep up the activism, public discussions, and debates in Parliment. I am in the U.S., and I do truly believe that that the docs that gave me benzos, simple GPs, were ignorant. But even this ignorance would not have got me on the drugs if the pharmacy inserts that come with the drugs had anything that closely resembled adequate warnings. I always read these. Yes I am angry, but am afraid most of it is going to have to wait until I am out of the woods as anger is a stressor that accelerates my withdrawal symptoms. Once healthy though, I will put up a fight as I am a good researcher, persistent, and resourceful.
Hi miste-
How are you?
Im really getting nervous about the benzos-im prescribed 2 mgs ativan daily-i take .5 till around 2:00 oclock-another .5-and 1 mg. at 8:00 pm.
I do have severe panic attacks-still get them w/ the ativan on occassion-but they make me tired and sometimes agitated.
Id like to cut down-a bit..any suggestions?
You are the benzo authority-and i appreciate any info/light on the problem.
I love the U.K.-got to perform there in the early 90's-vacationed there as well..
Are you in the city or country-oh-to live in a little thatched roof cottage..
Heather
I just have to say that tolerance will build when you least expect it. People who are only on a certain dose and do not have to increase it --- I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that eventually, you will. I have and I swore I wouldn't.
i don't mean to be an ******* here, since i'm sure those statements by those doctors are true for a lot of people - maybe even most - but that was NEVER the case for me. I have been on benzos - klon, xanax, ambien for months at a time and i have felt very mild withdrawals symptoms as opposed to the ones mentioned above and so often on this board - but that is not to diminish the experiences of those who have felt the opposite. however i have also been oc (crushed, snorted, heated and shot up), as well as hundreds of percocets, and vicodins/lortabs for just as long of a time and the withdrawal symptoms from the opiates - FOR ME - is much worse. stereotypes of all kinds just plain suck, and while there is no doubt this doctor and whoever that ashton guy is, are telling what they have seen, experienced and know; and their opinion should be respected, they also should be taken with a grain of salt (like any doctors opinion, be it on benzo withdrawal or that of other drugs - however that is not to say all doctors shouldn't be listened to - that's why we go to them right? we presume they can help us by having more knowledge on whatever is bothering us than we do - unfortunatey some don't). i believe - especially when blanket statements are made about the w/d from anything, such as h to valium to methadone to crank/meth to vicodin or percocets - to even alcohol, as being the worst/hardest/mostpainful/awful/etc.... to withdraw from. as i said, i am sure w/d from benzos are terrible, and even the worst, for a lot of people or it wouldn't be written about so much on this board, but i think we can all agree it doesn't matter what is the hardest drug to get off of, all that matters is getting of it. and the hardship in dealing with going through the withdrawls - from whatever chemical - is incredibly tough.
i just have seen people say this drug or that drug is the most difficult to get of off (from h to klonopin) on this board for so long but the real truth of the matter is, everyone is different, just as everyone's withdrawls experiences are different. and all addicts experiences should be respected because we all have been through hell with whatever drug, at one point or another. again, sorry to be an *** if i am - i sure don't want to **** anyone off or disrespect what they went or are going through - i just hate hearing the often repeated posts here that go something like "...well this is harder to get off of than this", or "this is the absolute hardest drug to withdraw from bar none."
the only blanket statement i agree with is that - for me - is that drugs suck.
i am an addict and i have hurt myself (which i can deal with) and the ones that i love and care for (which i can't) way too much. for me, any addictive drug when not taken exactly as prescribed or only when absolutely needed - in other words not just to get 'high', is like taking an exit off the freeway straight to hell.
those who abuse them and/or are addicted to them (probably most everyone here), have most likely had an incredibly terrible time trying to stop no matter what substance they were on. i just wish that many people could see that various people go through various symptoms when trying to stop different drugs. and again, it doesn't really matter what the hardest is. in the end, it only matters about getting clean and staying clean. sure the withdrawals are awful. but the hardest part isn't getting through them, it's staying off them -even when we all know better.
i've withdrawn from many different drugs and, at least for me, life sucks coming off of any of them. i just hope, at some point, even going to meetings and couseling etc.. like i am now, i won't turn off the freeway onto that exit again.
i'm not the hugest "Matrix" fan, but there is a quote in that movie where that girl says to Neo in the car - and i'm sure i'll screw it up - but it is something like, "don't go down that road Neo, you've been down it before and you know where it ends."
I just want to stop going down that road, because no matter what drug it ends with, they all provide pain, suffering and they all - in one way or another - are hell to get off of.
thanks for reading.
Ha ha ha Banker - gotcha at last! How you doing, girl? You sound good? Things easing up a bit for you? Havent been on here much lately but keep up with seamus!
Take care
Mise
Hiya Grey - ages since we have spoken! Nice to see you again. I agree with a lot of what you say. I simply want to tell you that Prof Ashton is Heather Crystal - and not a guy! LOL She has carried out extensive scientific studies with full scientific methods. If you get a chance why not type in Prof C A Ashton into google and read her manual.
Yes - drugs suck! Big time.
The extra little detail about benzos that it is not like other addictions in that you do no abuse it in any way - take it as prescribed by you doctor and after a few months - try stopping! I wont go on. You have been very very lucky in your experiences.
Hope to talk with you again soon
Mise
Heather
Get as much knowledge as you can. Read the Ashton Manual - it is freely available on line. Listen to Howard and Jennita. Howard is about 1/2 way thro his benzo taper just now - he will tell you how it is for him. You will need a tapering schedule if/as/when you want to come off. So if you have any questions - just ask. But please please read Ashton.
Take care
Mise
I have to agree with you. Opiate withdrawal kicked my butt. I went through the meat grinder with opiates and the benzos were easy by comparison. I think that because we have experience in kicking the hard stuff that benzos are a little easier for people like us. I've read some horror stories about benzos and I know that some people have a real hard time with it. If I had to choose my withdrawals today...it'd be benzos for sure. I don't want to choose though....LOL. Glad that's over....whew!
Prof Malcolm Lader
Psycho-pharmacology
King's College, London
"It is more difficult to withdraw people from benzodiazepines than it is from heroin"
"The withdrawal symptoms you get are so intolerable that people have a great deal of trouble coming off"
"with benzodiazepines a proportion of patients go on to long term withdrawal and they have very unpleasant symptoms for month after month"
****************************************
“It is a tragedy that (these steps) are needed 50 years after benzodiazepines were first introduced. They could have been foreseen and prevented but instead the skeleton was locked away in the cupboard for many years. Now we are faced with worms that are crawling out of the woodwork including not only the problems of long-term prescribed users but also the increasing spectre of illicit benzodiazepine abuse.”
Professor H. Ashton Newcastle University
****************************************
“Perhaps a third of all drugs are now prescribed for their placebo effect, and sedative-hypnotic drugs much more than most.”
Charles Medawar Social Audit
“ For years, most doctors have assumed that benzodiazepines must have worked because patients kept taking them…..thus dependence has been reinforced – as has the belief that these drugs can go on working for years.”Charles Medawar Social Audit.
****************************************
“Drug company research and development often serves marketing strategies more than sound science or patients’ safety.” JS Cohen MD
“More than half of the experts on FDA advisory committees have financial relationships with pharmaceutical companies, that will be helped or hurt by their decisions.”USA Today
“An industry so important to public health and so heavily subsidized and protected by government has social responsibilities that should not be totally overshadowed by its drive for profits.”
Dr M. Angell New England Journal of Medicine.
“When doctors irrationally deny or dismiss (patients) honest complaints, the message is clear : Doctors first allegiance is not to their patients but to the medications they prescribe.”Dr JS Cohen.
****************************************
“ Increasing numbers of people have been turned into drug addicts through legal prescriptions which perhaps suits the politicians and multi-national bureaucrats as well as the drug companies for it ensures an uncomplaining and docile community which is easy to administer, manage and manipulate...tranquillisers are more addictive than heroin."
Dr Vernon Coleman
****************************************
Phil Woolas MP
Depurty Leader House of Commons
(on the subject of benzos - 12.2.04)
"These drugs are responsible for more pain, unhappiness and damage than anything else in our society"
“The story of benzodiazepines is of awesome proportions and has been described as a national scandal. The impact is so large that it is too big for governments, regulatory authorities and the pharmaceutical industry to address head on, so the scandal has been swept under the carpet."
Phil Woolas M.P. Deputy Leader House of Commons
****************************************
"If there's a pill, then pharmaceutical companies will find a disease for it." Jeremy Laurance, The Independent, April 17, 2002
**************************************** The Committee on Safety of Medicines (1988) gave Guidelines to all doctors that benzodiazepine drugs should be used for 2/4 weeks only.
Barry Haslam. Brain-damaged by overprescription of Ativan.
“Not only did doctors not keep to the CSM Guidelines but their inept and atrocious ‘clinical judgement’ coupled with their arrogance, has of today resulted in creating 1.2 million iatrogenic benzodiazepine drug addicts in the UK – The Lunatics are running the Asylum.”
Very good post!!!! I wonder why doctors' basically completely ignore the prescribing guidelines, don't you?
I just wanted to say thanks for the kind words that some of you have given me, both recently and in the past. It has been a while since I posted and unfortunately there have been several bad times since then although I am not using everyday - or even close to it - like I was a couple years ago. (And sorry to Hi-jack this thread, but I thought starting a new one just to say thanks and quickly update my story would have been kind of selfish because there are more of you on here who don't know me than do I'm sure.)
Although I have kept up with reading the posts on a pretty much every other day basis, I can't help but thank Michelle (John 3:16) for the support she used to give me, I know she has had her troubles recently to and I just hope she can hang in there. What is wierd is that I am not religious, and while I certainly don't have a problem with those who are, Michelle always seemed to see that I was approching my problem in a different way than her and never responded with any comments about her faith, she just gave me honest support and wished me well. With a screen name like hers, that's the last thing I would've expected and I will always respect and truly admire her for that. With that said, if ANY religion can help you through and hopefully out of addiction, that is truly wonderful. I just don't happen to be one of those people - Stay strong Michelle. You helped me and I think about your struggles often.
There are so many other people that used to come here, but no longer seem to post, that have helped me out and while I can't mention them all by name, I just want to say thank you. Yinsky and I share almost completely different opinions on Benzos, and while I have learned to respect that opinion while still disagreeing with much of it - it has, in turn, taught me great tolerance of others and their opinions and experiences on this board. Thank you very much for that. That has helped in my daily life beyond a computer keyboard as well.
I wish luck to all of you and while, again, I am still struggling - mostly with pillls (opiates), because they are the easiest to get my hands on, I find myself giving into those urges one every two months or so (a 20-30 pill perscription only) instead of taking over 200 pills (hyros, oxys, and oc's) a week for almost 2 years or being on H for a short but intense time like I did before I stared seeing a Psyche again, a 1 on 1 drug counseler again and going to meetings (not as much as I should but trying to get in 3-4x's a month). I just hope that it will continue to get easier.
I read a book by Dr. Drew Pinsky called 'Cracked', that helped me tremendously before I had the guts to go to meetings. I'm a 6 ft tall 29 yr old 195 lbs guy who lifts weights almost obsessively (though it's kind of funny that I've never dne and am scared to death of steroids because I'm too frightened of back acne, testicle shrinkage and hair loss, but at one point I had no problem killing my liver on a daily basis with toxic amounts of Tylenol and injecting myself with God knows what at others - so, well...I guess that's not really that funny, but ....well yes it is - I've never been truly rational, then again by staying away from roids and other Bodybuiling popular drugs like Nubain which is similar to H - I have several less problems to worry about). Anyway I physically look like I shouldn't be intimidated by anything - but in reality I am the shyest guy (and very easilt intimidated) that I know. My 'Social Anxiety Disorder' - the official name for it I'm told - started as a scrawny kid, like many boys, who had to face insults, humiliation, and getting my *** kicked on a weekly basis. When your mind is still developing in those times (ages 6-14 or so), those experiences have profound effects on your mental stae as you get older. Anyway, that is what made me so utterly shy today - and everything from Paxil to Serzone to Lexapro, Zoloft, Prozac - every anti depp. including combos that are available, just didn't work for me. And I started trying them w/ my psyche's supervision, at 22.
I hope one comes out that does but the book I spoke of - and maybe for others it is their religion or faith, or support from friends and family, which I lack in many respects (not the support just the existance), or maybe it's something - anything else - for some reason, and i'm sure there are many others out there - which chronicled the lives of several addicts during their stay at an inpatient detox center in Pasadena that he helps run, gave me the a real true realization I was not alone and this thing can be beat - even though it takes months, years, sometimes lifetimes. But it can. I still have to re-read it from time to time to keep that understanding fresh in my mind, but - and I hate giving advice - cause I'm no doctor and am or have been in much of the same position as all of you - try and find some inspiration or help to get to meetings. They are scary as hell in the beginning, but after the first it gets easier, and this is just a prediction, your life as an addict will begin to get easier to.
And there are a lot of meetings out there to choose from - I'm in Hell (Phoenix, 105 yesterday) - so you can always try others if they are available and the people just don't seem accepting at certain ones - that does happen unfortunately. But I lucked out with my first group and it has made all the difference in the world.
Just meetings or therapy will not make you stop overnight - cause most of us didn't start overnight. But it has made such a tremendous difference in my life - and most importantly HEALTH - that I just felt the need to share a little of what has been going on with me the last several months. Thanks for your kind words and please take this thread back, I certainly didn't mean to impose this much.
Again, thanks to you all and I'm sure I still be around probably lurking.
Ohh and sorry about messing up Ashton's gender in my other post - I just assumed and, well, you know asuming does. My apologies.
grey
P.S. I know it has been a while and I never much agreed with the way he spoke of his addiction on this board but hearing about the loss of 'Happy Father' - I'm not exactly sure what happened - was terrible. I don't know what else to say except that I hope his family gets through this, he is in a better place, and his demons - that many of us know all too well - have left him completely and he is in true peace.
Well - you are an insightful romantic intelligent man! Who would have thought a body builder would have a brain? ha ha hah a ha ha ha ha ha, soreeee soreeeeee sorrrrrrreeee
Just couldnt resist.
Grey - you do know me - you and I just disagree about benzos! But I love talking to you!
You are dead honest - and I suspect that a lot of us in here have relapses - the very illness of addiction is defined as a relapsing condition! We live with this monkey on our backs forever.
But seems to me like you are doing just fine - you are headed in the right direction? What more can you expect?
Thanks for a terrific post.
Mise
What a great way to start my day! In fact, I was feeling pretty "blah" and confused as to what route I need to take (which has been going on for awhile now..) and I really appreciate hearing that what I have and am going through is not in vain- that my experiences and words have helped atleast one person! Thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Regarding religion, I have always said, I would never push my faith on anyone but would be glad to share how it has helped me through some very rough times and I see that you know that! I would never want to offend anyone but then I would also not want to miss out on a chance to "share" my great faith in God....so, IF you ever want to talk religion...give me a holler!!!
Good to hear from you- I don't get on the boards much anymore! I'll try to more often (feel a bit like a hypocrite)!
I think that grey got it right that everyone thinks that their drug of choice is the worst. The wd's from opiates are nothing compared to benzos. Although from what I have read that the wd's from benzos can be more dangerous.
I think if you look hard and long enough you will find some person out there swearing up and down that this drug or that drug is the hardest to get off of and has the worst withdrawals. I have heard this about cigarettes. I have heard that people who are addicted to alcohol and get the dt's have it the worst with the hallucinations and delusions.
Why the need to prove "my drug is worst then yours?" I think they all suck.
I think that grey got it right that everyone thinks that their drug of choice is the worst. The wd's from opiates are nothing compared to benzos. Although from what I have read that the wd's from benzos can be more dangerous.
I think if you look hard and long enough you will find some person out there swearing up and down that this drug or that drug is the hardest to get off of and has the worst withdrawals. I have heard this about cigarettes. I have heard that people who are addicted to alcohol and get the dt's have it the worst with the hallucinations and delusions.
Why the need to prove "my drug is worst then yours?" I think they all suck.
Keith
Yes, benzos can be more dangerous with seizures and psychosis possible from larger dose cuts. Benzos also have something very unique called Benzodiazepine Protracted Withdrawal Syndrome, which happens to a percentage of people. It can last for years. Not many other drugs have that added woe.
But all withdrawals are hard from most drugs. What really sucks is when someone becomes an accidental addict through taking what is prescribed and then they are told it is them, not the drug by their doctor. I mean, at least when someone abuses a drug they know what they are in for, and they know they must change their behavior. Not the same for the accidental one, who follows their doctor's advice and when they develop tolerance/tolerance withdrawals, their doctor says it's not being caused by the drug. This is one of the most insulting things that can happen to someone who doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, and only trusted their doctor on their supposed condition. No wonder most of us are bitter and angry!
And I agree, all drugs suck! When are people going to get that?
Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos 
