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Old 05-15-2004, 06:41 AM   #1
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After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

I know I am bad! Some of you won't tell me, but I want out of the sub, I can't afford it. I am going to stop taking the sub and use the vic's to help. I have some sub incase this doesn't work so I can hope back on. If anything I screw up this is the last time. I took 1/2 of a 8mg yesterday at 12:00 and took a vic last night at around 8:00 (it didnt' do anything to me) and I took a vic this morning at 7:00. My questions are if I was to take a sub right now what would happen? When will the vic's actually work like they are supposed to as a pain med? Do I have to wait 12 hrs to take a sub again? Im confused. I have to work today and I have to be VERY FUNCTIONAL!!!!!!

 
Old 05-15-2004, 07:07 AM   #2
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

you cant be doin what you are doin...your screwing up your receptors and they dont know what to think...nothin is supposed to happed when you take opiates with sub cause the sub has nalaxatrene in it..thats what they give you if you have a od of opiates.....both meds are not going to work right ....they are not meant to switch back/forth.....whats the matter with the sub?not gettin your buzzzzzzzz....your not suppoised to...its to help you get off the vikes...its helps so you dont get w/d's...the way your goin your goin to get w/d's anyways....they gave you the sub so you can quit vikesww/ any w/d's...your going right back to 1st base with your thought process...if you dont quit the vikes your habit will eventually get bigger..especially after playin around with sub/vikes....anagelisic pain has nothin to do with the vikes not giving you anagelisic effect but the sub gives thsat too....i got a feelin your not ready to quit dope yet....chef

 
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Old 05-15-2004, 04:05 PM   #3
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

Whitedevils,

What's up with you? If you think that sub can give you a hydro vacation you're wrong. The first step to being clean is to realize you are powerless and to have a real desire to quit. I would recommend going to a meeting. It sounds like you're on your way to real trouble. Stop and look around. Long term addiction is no fun. I'm 30 years at it and still struggling. Been to jail, hospitals, lost family, jobs, all more times than one. Stop fooling yourself, this is nothing to play with.

TMB

 
Old 05-15-2004, 09:55 PM   #4
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

I was in deed wanting a high off the vic, but it was going to be for the good. I have read so many stories here and on da that the sub is just subsituting one for the other, so I thought why not take the vic's and wean down from the sub. I want off all pills. After finding out the script is going to cost me 300.00 I about died. (my insurance doesn't pay anything on them). I have a card to get them, but I need some dental work done LIKE REALLY BAD! So I am stuck here! I don't have the money to get it filled really, I am in limbo right now. I personally think I can take the 18 I have now and just get off of it all, but I was thinking if I find myself still wanting the vic's badly I will get back on the sub immediately. I haven't really heard anything good from anyone on sub that is off of it! Most are still taking it/in the process. I have heard many say they are addicted to sub? Sub is great I love it! I don't crave the pills that is good, I have had the thought of using them (duh i did) but I don't want it back in my life. I really don't. I got side tracked last night, I have allot going on in my life that I just don't bring up. One is that I post and I post and I never get many responses. Im shy so that is probably my fault huh? But when I do it seems like I am a ghost. As far as meetings go, again I am shy AND scared to death someone I know will be in there and the rumor will be out. I really felt proud of myself going to the sub doctor that was a MAJOR STEP I took.
I was wanting to know also earlier if I could take my sub since I took a vic and you guys didn't answer that so I could get on track. I took a sub though well my 1/2. I only take 8mg a day.
Ok thanks for your advice and lecture. l.o.l. You are both right in what you said I am not mad, but I am sensitive wah wah.
Oh and I am a long term addiction already, nothing short term here! I know all about the addiction IT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love ya all!

 
Old 05-16-2004, 05:05 AM   #5
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

WD

I really think you need to be honest with yourself. If you don't have money for sub how will you have money for hydro's? Sub was a stepping stone for me. It gave me a chance to regroup. The reason we don't just taper our hydro's or other DOC is we can't and we don't. We, or at least I want to get high. Doesn't work with sub. There is no euphoria. That makes it easier to get off of. 4 mg of sub is not really a low dose. You could go from 4 to 2mg in a short period of time. That way you'd double the time each script would last. I was on 4mg for 5 or 6 months. I then tapered to 1 or even less without much trouble. Forget about hydro's. If being clean is overwelming don't focus on it. Let the sub work for you. When you are OK with not being high you can then focus on coming off sub. The detox from sub is really not that bad. Chef's got it right. There are always withdrawal symptoms, no way around them. They are never as bad as we think they might be. Don't let other's fears of getting clean impeade your desire to do this. It's never as bad as we thought it would be.

TMB

 
Old 05-16-2004, 05:30 AM   #6
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

TMB:

Thanks for you reply. I am on track now, really I am. I have been since I posted yesterday and decided I will go ahead and see what happens if I take my sub on top of a vic. I wasn't sure what to do, if it would hurt me or what then I found an old post of someone else who did the same thing and they survived. l.o.l. I think taking 4mg isn't a bad idea, then my script would last for 60 days! Break that down and it is only 150.0 a month not so bad that way. I just have to get by with 1/2 seems like i am dependent on the two 1/2 does a day. I have well butrin and I want to start taking it, but scared of the side affect of seizures. Really I want to live life with no PILLS not even tylenol. I hate them. I would never take a pill when I was younger up until like 22 or 23. Weird huh. So how are you doing on the sub? Did you totally quit? Can I ask a stupid question (although it is hard to tell without seeing u) are you male or female? l.o.l. I say male! Have a great Sunday!

 
Old 05-16-2004, 05:52 AM   #7
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

It's o.k... you slipped. We all try to rationalize when we slip. It's o.k. Let me ask you --- how long have you been on Sub? And you are still craving, obviously at 8 mgs? You know, I've always felt badly and like I have taken the 'easy way out' by getting on Sub but the reality really is that you have to be ready to take it. You have to be ready to let go of the high... And the sub is an excellent tool to assist you... as you already know. I think of Suboxone as my insurance to not taking hydros.

Can you afford Suboxone? How much were you spending on hydros each month? You just have to put things into perspective and decide are you really ready to let go of the high... if you're not, it doesn't matter how much Sub you take. But it is odd that you are still craving. Maybe your dose isn't high enough? I don't know... But I do feel for you and I know there have been times when I've wanted an escape... yet I've never even really wanted hydros for that escape... I could have used other things but so far, so good!

I know that you know that addiction is a horrible disease and one that cannot go unattended for even a second or it will take over. So... even though you slipped.... I still have to ask are you really, really ready to quit? If so, then stay on Suboxone and keep going and don't look back. You may want to talk to your doc about increasing your dose if 8 mgs is not enough. Remember, you won't get a high... even if you increase but it might help your urges...

It's a mistake and I know you realize that. This is all just a decision you have to make.. stay on sub or get off of it.

 
Old 05-16-2004, 06:58 AM   #8
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

Banker:

I have been on sub I believe it is 3 weeks now. I didn't really crave that day just wanted one to feel the high like I said in my last post. I planned out getting on sub and I wanted to quit then and I still want to quit actually am going to quit. The sub has helped me greatly in the cravings etc. I don't think highering my dose is what I need at all! I am thinking about lowering it to save the money like TMB sugested. I never counted how much I was spending on hydro's really. Some months I would only spend maybe 40.00 and other months it would be 200.00, but it would be broken down into weekly. (that helps) Like I said above in my post to TMB. I heard that the sub isn't any better as far as getting off and that you can get addicted to the sub. THat I just traded one for the other. You are one that actually got me thinking from one of your post as well. You went back and forth also right? I have read so many not sure. Somone on the DA board (I won't mention their name not right to do that) is/was (haven't heard from him lately) feeling like crap coming off the sub and said it is lasting longer than the vic wd. I keep asking these people that have the wd's of sub to post and let us know how it is going, but they always disappear or go around that question. Kind of like they don't want to tell the truth to scare others away from it. I don't know that is my thoughts on everyone's reaction. I do want to quit, I don't want to go looking for the crap anymore and I don't want to have to hid pills anymore etc. I am done with them, now I want to be done with the sub! I am going to wean my self off earlier and then if I feel I can't deal with not taking vic's I will get back on it. I will wean my self in the next 60 days, next appt is then and that is when he plans on weaning me, I will just be one step ahead. ha! ha! As far as my doc goes, I have spent a total of 5 minutes with him and have had 2 appts. So the only resource I have is the 2 boards I visit.

 
Old 05-16-2004, 07:33 AM   #9
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

WDS

Your intuition is correct. I am a 50 year old male. I started using drugs when I was 14. Was all out crazy addict with no clean time other than jail until late 30's. Was clean around 15 years. Things were and are great. Family, job, new house baby the real American dream. I slipped and found myself eating hydros. My original DOC was heroin. I realized I better get a grip before I lost all that I had gained and jumped on sub. It absolutley served it's purpose. I was able to stop on the dime. After awhile I just felt it's time to get off sub. Yes, I am completly off. I don't use anything else. No anti depressents etc. I have no pain issues or depression. My problem was and is I really like opiates. I also know I can't do them once in awhile. I truely lost evrything to drugs. In jail for several years, no where to live, totally insane crazy would do most anything for drugs. I was on methadone off and on three different times. I never was able to not use something while on meth. I didn't want to stop at that point. I used to buy other peoples take outs, shoot drugs, drink tuss or something. It wasn't the meth being no good, it was I didn't want to be drug free. It's different now. Maybe that's why the sub worked so well for me. I was able to see how damaging the reprucussions are. Don't BS yourself. It's not the sub, the meth, the hydros etc that don't work. It comes down to you. If you are looking for excuses I can give you three for every scenario. Chef said it when he said, " there will always be wd symptoms when you are addicted. The only thing you do by switching from one to the other is prolong the inevitable." Good luck. What state do you live in? I will be glad to try and help by sharing my experiences. Enjoy you day.

TMB

 
Old 05-16-2004, 09:10 AM   #10
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefob1
you cant be doin what you are doin...your screwing up your receptors and they dont know what to think...nothin is supposed to happed when you take opiates with sub cause the sub has nalaxatrene in it..thats what they give you if you have a od of opiates.....both meds are not going to work right ....they are not meant to switch back/forth.....whats the matter with the sub?not gettin your buzzzzzzzz....your not suppoised to...its to help you get off the vikes...its helps so you dont get w/d's...the way your goin your goin to get w/d's anyways....they gave you the sub so you can quit vikesww/ any w/d's...your going right back to 1st base with your thought process...if you dont quit the vikes your habit will eventually get bigger..especially after playin around with sub/vikes....anagelisic pain has nothin to do with the vikes not giving you anagelisic effect but the sub gives thsat too....i got a feelin your not ready to quit dope yet....chef
NEVER MIND

 
Old 05-16-2004, 09:17 AM   #11
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

Whitedevil,

I'm not sure if you read my post-"My story- getting off hydros and sub" from April 29, 2004. You can do an advanced search and quickly locate it. I'm not on the boards much these days because I've been so busy since hydro free! It feels so great to be completely opiate free! Its been 31 days hydro free !


I, like you was on Subutex for a while and back on hydros, a roller coaster for about several months. I was at 30+ a day of hydro abuse for about a year. I simply couldn't taper off the hydros because I was too weak for that. I sought the help of these great people here about Sub and went apprehensively to my first appointment.

When I first was on Sub after the 30+ a day habit, it gave me a false sense of security. It made me feel drug free, but in my mind, I knew I wasn't 100% drug free, ya know? I was still on opiates. After two weeks on Sub, the cravings were not physically there for hydros but mentally they were. I, like you , took a Vic in the afternoon , but felt nothing. Chef is talking about suboxone which has naltrexene in it, but Subutex doesn't. Your body won't go into seizures if you take a small dose, but Subutex blocks the "high" (euphoria) of the hydro if you consume it. So what is the point of taking hydros with sub if you can't get high? I wouldn't play with fire like that because Subutex is still fairly new and the FDA is monitoring it and its side effects. You shouldn't mix both.

Subutex is a 24-36 hour long acting opiate (it must be sustained released) and hydros are a short acting opiate (4-8 hours). You start feeling withdrawls with hydros after about that time whereas Sub you don't feel the withdrawls until about 24 hours , but when you do, it is much more than hydros withdrawls.

I, initally started the Sub dose at 32mg. My doc immediately gave me a taper schedule for two weeks on the Sub. He gave me 8mg tablets to be cut up into 2mg to nothing. I tapered to chips on the Sub and completely went off it. However, in my last hydro and sub rollercoaster, I did use 30 vics to help me with the withdrawls from the sub. The withdrawls off the Sub almost always sent me back to the hydros. I caved when I felt so crappy from the withdrawls. I wasn't ready to quit. However, I did get to the point where I was completely sick of the hydro and sub roller coaster. I was mentally prepared to completely quit. If you aren't, then I wouldn't use the hydros to taper off the sub. You will want more if you are not mentally prepared.

You can cut up your 8mg tabs and be on 1mg a day and still not have cravings. You have to prepare yourself mentally to be off opiates! Intially, I took two doses, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. But everytime, I took the afternoon dose, it gave me the worse insomnia! So I stopped the afternoon dose. I, initally took 8mg in the morning and felt withdrawls already in the afternoon. I did everything possible to keep my mind off it. Usually, I exercised at that time and kept my withdrawls at bay. You can feel the drop in dose though! Within one week, I was at 2mg in the morning only and felt OK. Then, each day I took less of it. Remember, when you taper it should be done at about the 24-36 hour. The withdrawls are definitely there though. But when you taper that way, it is not as bad as completely just stopping your dose.

I thought I could never stop the roller coaster, but I did it! I'm finally sleeping much better after 4 weeks of being opiate free. Life is definitely much more fulfilling. Its been a battle to be hydro free. I don't think of hydros as much. I still get tons of email about ordering online. Before I couldn't even read the emails, but now I could read them and not twitch at all for hydros. I don't crave it mentally anymore.

Good luck and post if you need anything. I will be here to answer all of your questions. Its mind over matter. Take care and be strong!

 
Old 05-16-2004, 07:47 PM   #12
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

I first of all wish both of you to understand I was not giving any exscuses. Why is it when everyone else says they slipped they get the hey hop back on the train and I get like the 3rd degree. I guess it is just the story of my life. I don't mind what you are saying, but I never made exscuses. I was telling the truth!!!!!! I didn't start sub when I was out of hydro's I started it when I had them and I want to quit and I am going to quit, well ok let me say I hope to quit! I can't predict the future I can only try! I have allot of pressure in my life and it has been up and down up and down. I have done pretty damn well to my thinking of not taking but the 2 hydro's in the last 3 weeks. the longest I have ever made it ct is 8 days. I felt real good then but the cravings killed me. I know I have to want to quit if the sub is going to work, I have nothing bad personally against the sub, It is doing what it is supposed to. I wasn't craving I was wanting to partially give in then I realized I wanted to take the sub, but was scared cause I took a vic. I am a very contious pill head l.o.l. I won't just take any pill I have to know for sure what it is! I am glad you will be there for me, what was it like to get off of them, honestly! I just need to know what to expect and be prepared, will I need time off work? I have a hectic job! I am on 8mg I think you think I am on 4mg. I just take 1/2 and 1/2. I think tomorrow I will try and just do the whole thing in the am and be done with it and try that again. At first it seemed around 12:00 I would be feeling like I needed it. I really feel dependent on it right now? Oh I live in Indianapolis. Where do you live? I know there was few people from Indy area, I never run across anyone living around here on the boards. I just hope it isn't anyone I know trying to spy on me. (warped mine of mine) I really am a good honest person, I just have this stupid pill addiction and have to have afew beers a night and my cigs! l.o.l. wow I am a true addict. I just feel so alone in this situation sometimes it isn't even funny, although I know millions in this world are going through it, I just wish I had someone that was a friend going through it and we could do it together (oh no that sounded nasty didn't it! lmao)
ok I will let you go! I will be up bright and early.

 
Old 05-16-2004, 08:08 PM   #13
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

Over
Thanks so much for your reply at least you know where I was coming from a little, I guess each has to learn and live it before they know it. I don't want back on the hydro's I really do not want that life style. I don't even want to take this sub, yeah it is saving me and it is working wonders. I was doing the mental thing Friday and Saturday morning. Had some stuff getting to me and I think that is when I drifted. I was offered a hydro earlier that week and I was like no it would be a waste and I really don't want it anyhow. I want to be around my friends that take them and be able to say no, cause temptation is out there you cant hide from it. I am having my up and down days and today is really a down day. I did have to take a valium and no I don't care for those so I am not worried about addiction. I take them when I am having a nervous break down and crying and screaming at everyone, everyone loves it when I take one then, better than killing. l.o.l. I wouldn't do that. I love my family and I want them to have the best in life and I want to be a part of their life happily.
I knew I had read a story about someone going back and forth it must have been you. You had me scared about this sub stuff and then you give positive so I was really confused. I just want the truth in it all and what to expect! So you are free of all drugs now? that is awesome!!!!!! I can't wait for that day, to walk out side and think I am drug free! I don't need anything (well my mountain dew or pepsi l.o.l.) I hate speeders at the gas stations. I don't like speeders. my only drug of choice is vic's and i didn't even like them in the end, they didn't do anything but keep me from having wd's and spending my money when I could spend it on a new pair of shoes! I am getting my life back together financially though. I am doing better than most single mom's would be with all these problems.
So where do you live? I feel like I am addicted to this board though, I am always on it when I am at home so my house falls apart and that makes things worse, but I like to read on the post. I do more reading than posting, I dont' know why. Im still in the isolation part of the drugs I guess, although I am a very shy person anyhow.
OK gotta go read and go to bed. I will read messages in am

 
Old 05-16-2004, 08:14 PM   #14
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteDevils
well ok let me say I hope to quit! I can't predict the future I can only try! I have allot of pressure in my life and it has been up and down up and down. the longest I have ever made it ct is 8 days. I felt real good then but the cravings killed me. I know I have to want to quit if the sub is going to work. I wasn't craving I was wanting to partially give in...
WD, if you can make it eight days, you can do this, IF you want to do it. Why cave in if you don't crave? We all have pressure in our lives, but you have to make a CHOICE. Do you want to quit or not? If you do, then fight the cravings and don't take the pills. The cravings diminish if you give your body a chance.

 
Old 05-17-2004, 07:58 PM   #15
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Re: After your last sub how long b4 u can take a vic?

WhiteDevils,

Just wanted to jump in an add I did somewhat what Over did- flipflopped back and forth from hydros to subutex. For me, I got a high if I took a subutex one day and a couple of hydros the next????

The first two weeks I was on the sub, I thought it was the most awesome drug in the world and then my doctor cut my dose because he said the longer you stay on, the harder to come off and that thought never, never left my mind. Like you, I started thinking, well, I have just made a trade off. So, to heck with the sub, I'll go back to my hydros so I'll atleast get a "feel good" from them. A couple of weeks later, guilt would set in and I would stop the hydros and go back to the sub and did this for awhild- this vicious roller coaster ride.
I said all that to say, DON'T DO THAT! I am not implying that you will- just giving friendly advice. My doctor cut me off from the sub because I take something for anxiety occassionally and he disagreed with that and it has been ROUGH, ROUGH, AND ROUGHER!!!!! (Sub withdrawals)

I found another addictionologist who is a former addict and explained the whole dirty tale to him and his response was, "Don't ever take another sub...." When I questioned him about this, he said, it was an extremely powerful drug that is not very "grounded" and "proven" yet. That scared me because for one, I couldn't get in to see him until May 27 so what was I going to do in the meantime??? He called me in some Darvocet and said take these to keep withdrawals at bay until you see me- well, those lasted about 3 or 4 days as the addict in me reared its ugly head so, I orderd some hydros, not wasn't a good scenario either....

So, here I am, waiting to see this doctor in mild withdrawals (taking pinches of the sub here and there) and am miserable. Just PLEASE stick with one form of quitting and stick to it!

I LONG for the day to be off EVERYTHING- I can't wait! I just need help in doing so and I have been putting that off for a long time!

I know what your going through- I am right there with you! You hang in there and I will, too, K?
God bless and keep me posted as to how you are,
M

 
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