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Old 05-25-2004, 10:25 PM   #1
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doggreensector HB User
Back on the vikes

I wish I could tell you guys that I have been off of the vikes for over a month now. When I ran out of ultracet I went to the doctor and did what we do and asked for some vicodin. He gave me a prescription for a load of them vicodin ES. I threw them out after about three days of taking 2-3 of them a day. After going one day without them and being miserable I went to my dentist with a tooth that has been bad for awhile and got prescribed some more.

I am so sick of this crap. I feel like a piece of ----.

Keith

 
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Old 05-25-2004, 10:43 PM   #2
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greymatter HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

hey
i've been down the same road. be it for actual pain or just lies so i could get high. it sounds like you are incredibly frustrated and we all here know the feeling.
are you really ready to get off these drugs? do you have a chronic medical condition, or at least one serious enough that requires you to be on narcotics? i don't know much about your case but i am guessing you are addicted although that is an assumption and you know what those do.
have you ever thought about getting help? talking to someone? getting involoved in a program (n/a)?
i know those are big scary steps, but even you must realize this cycle will not stop through just will power - that is if you truly are an addict. if you are, you are going to need support from others just like you and as much as i love this board and it certainly helps me, it is nowhere near enough by itself.
admitting you have a problem is the first step, but it sounds like you are really sick and tired of all this. only you know where your bottom is and when you'll feel it.
but i can tell you that almost no addicts get and stay clean without some sort of support group at least for an extended period. addiction is a disease and treatment for diseases are intense, and usually a long term commitment. are you ready for that? only you know.
i hope you can find some support and get off these drugs if they are not medically necessary for you.
since i don't know much about your story, if referring to you as an addict offends you, i am sorry. but there really is only one way to get a handle on the brain disease known as addiction, and that is constant treatment.
but it's up to you whether you feel that's necessary at this point.

from your post above it just sounds like you are fed up completely. knowing what i know now, my own 4-5 years of addiction and relapses before getting help, i really wish i had done so much earlier. it would have saved many precious years of my life from wasting away in drug hell.

good luck and all the best. i hope you succeed in however you choose to handle this.

grey

 
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Old 05-25-2004, 11:24 PM   #3
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doggreensector HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

Grey,

Thank you for your thoughts however, I do not believe that drug abuse is a "disease." I am sorry but I think that saying that it is a disease, at least for me, is an excuse. I went to AA years ago for alcohol abuse and I quit years ago when I just became totally fed up with it, I never have bought into the whole 12 step thing. I have known many who have gone to 12 step meetings and it has done more harm then good, although I am sure that 12 step meetings do work for a number of people. I hope that my comments don't offend you. I am only relating to you my experience and my opinion.

I am going to try and stop tommorrow, fortunately it has only been a few days and I have been taking 2-3 ES per day. Wish me luck.

Keith

 
Old 05-26-2004, 01:15 AM   #4
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greymatter HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

listen man,
you can have your opinion and i will not critisize you - that is not what this board is for - it is for support which is all i am/was trying to give. i, and a number of other people believe that ADDICTION is a disease, one of the brain. if i said abuse, i am sorry that is not what i meant. in fact - after reading my post i didn't say that. you didn't offend me, but please don't misquote me.

abuse and addiction are two different things. addicts can't stop taking a drug no matter how much they try - maybe for a week or a month or sometimes longer, but they will always go back - maybe to a different drug, substance, or things like sex or gambling (just as examples) as a way of escaping life and responsibilities or pain of past trauma or life in general. 'abuse' of anything is someone who takes substances for a long period of time, fully aware of the damage they are causing to their body, but in reality thay can stop if they choose to. addiction occurs in the brain and is a fact. abuse w/o addiction is a choice.
but i am not going to try to convince you of something you seem to have your mind made up on.

if you believe 12 step programs and the support that goes along with them does more harm than good in many cases, that is your opinioon and i will not argue. however, i will state that it is 12 step and the support it has given me that has enabled me to be clean for almost a year now. i also believe many would disagree with your opinions on many 12 steps doing 'more harm than good', but that, in turn is just my opinion.
why do you keep going back to substances? do you have a chronic condition that requires you to be on pain meds? seriously - i'd like to know.
would you consider trying to go to a few N/A meetings and voicing some of your concerns, like you have with me, to the group?
they might be able to give you other words or thoughts that i can't.

look, there is nothing i hate worse than someone forcing their beliefs on me either, so i don't want you to think that is what i am trying to do to you. i was/am just trying to help.
but something is obviously still a problem if you keep coming back to one substance or another, even when it seems pretty clear you want to stop.

if you really do, but can't, to me and many others who know much more about this than me, that is called addiction. and it is a proven medical fact that addiction is a disease. if you'd like i can give you a list of over 50 books by reputabile M.D.'s who specialize in that area who say the same thing.
if you are not addict, then that is truly great, but if that is the case stop abusing drugs, just like you did with alcohol.

if you are not an addict, it should be possible.

otherwise, if you keep coming back even though you don't want to (and this is just my opinion, although i know many others as well) you are. i hope i am wrong and you get and stay clean for the rest of your life on your own terms. best of luck to you.

grey

 
Old 05-26-2004, 03:33 AM   #5
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mise ata ann HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by doggreensector
Grey,

Thank you for your thoughts however, I do not believe that drug abuse is a "disease." I am sorry but I think that saying that it is a disease, at least for me, is an excuse. I went to AA years ago for alcohol abuse and I quit years ago when I just became totally fed up with it, I never have bought into the whole 12 step thing. I have known many who have gone to 12 step meetings and it has done more harm then good, although I am sure that 12 step meetings do work for a number of people. I hope that my comments don't offend you. I am only relating to you my experience and my opinion.

I am going to try and stop tommorrow, fortunately it has only been a few days and I have been taking 2-3 ES per day. Wish me luck.

Keith
Keith

You are punishing yourself and racking yourself with guilt unnecessarily. Would you not believe the combined wisdom of all the scientists and doctors of the World Health Organisation? The WHO states that addiction is a disease. If you can accept this - you will find it easier I think to go forward and seek help.

Mise

Last edited by mise ata ann; 05-26-2004 at 03:35 AM. Reason: spelling!

 
Old 05-26-2004, 06:06 AM   #6
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lisaaahubb HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

Keith, gosh we sound a lot alike. I too have a mouth full of dental problems, enought to the point that the dentist's feel so bad they are prescribing crazy amounts of pills because they think i am in alot more pain than i am.
2 or 3 a day really isn't that rough to get off of. It will be more mental than anything.
I am currently taking around 7 a day and am going to tackle my dental problems BEFORE i try to sober up this time around. Between my unstable home-life, the 4 kids, and a mouth full of pain and 2 bad wrists, i can find a million and one reasons why i SHOULD be on pain killers. But they are destroying me, i can't "feel" anymore, i am always feeling down and sick of constantly fighting off sickness. Don't get to this point...if you are only take 2 or 3 a day, get some of those teeth fixed and by the way, Listerine works wonders!!!!! It is something that you will have to repeat alot thru-out the day, but it does kill alot of the pain.
Well i just wanted you to know that i am out here with some similar problems, so don't feel alone, stick around maybe we can help each other out
luv,
LISA

 
Old 05-26-2004, 06:07 AM   #7
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windysan HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

I have my doubts about the disease model too. I do go to NA and it helps me. I don't agree with everything in the Big Book or the NA/AA philosophy but I take what I need and leave the rest. It does sound like you are addicted. I suggest treatment and meetings....you ain't gotta agree with everything that is said.

good luck,
w

 
Old 05-26-2004, 07:06 AM   #8
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greymatter HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by windysan
I have my doubts about the disease model too. I do go to NA and it helps me. I don't agree with everything in the Big Book or the NA/AA philosophy but I take what I need and leave the rest. It does sound like you are addicted. I suggest treatment and meetings....you ain't gotta agree with everything that is said.

good luck,
w
I don't agree with everything the big book says either, but much of what it says certainly has awakened me an understanding that unless have support, sometimes a lot of support from those with similar experiences, I will probably fall back into using again. It does get easier but I choose to believe - maybe I'm naive - in those who know more about this, and have more experience with it than myself, and I have quite a bit. There are people out there who have survived this, and done it well, but few - if any have done it alone. Those Doctors in the clinics across America - especially the one I went - know more than me because it is their lives and work. Do they know what it feels like to get high everyday for years, almost like clockwork? No. Then again I don't know, as an addict, exactly how or why my brain wouldn't allow me to stop on will power alone. This guy and his collegues, and I'm guessing hundreds of others across America in the same profession, did.
Sure we choose to take pills or harder drugs, but our brain chemistry and in most instances environment, choose us as addicts after a period of usage.

A disease needs constant treatment - sometimes more, sometimes less - but constant. Addiction is no different.

If getting of drugs was a will power issue, the majority of us, having heard all the horror stories on this board and in meetings, and seeing the way drugs have screwed up our own lives would no doubt choose to get off this stuff, return to our lives and never look back. That's just doesn't happen because it isn't that easy. Reality hardly is.
I think the bottom line is, whatever, or however a person can get or stay clean from all substances is all that matters. The big book might profess to have all the answers but it is just a model for what has proven most successful for those in our position in the past.
I just would hate to see someone, anyone here go through the rollercoaster of relapses and strung-out periods because they were unwilling to understand that, in reality, no one can really do this alone. It's been tried way too many times by actual addicts and the success rate is almost none existant.
But whatever works for you or anyone. As long as it works. And keeps working in the long run. All the best to all that are struggling.

grey

 
Old 05-26-2004, 09:40 AM   #9
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John 808 HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

I can totally vouche for what Grey is saying! For so long I thought, well, I choose to abuse these pills and I can stop! I thought through the sincere desire to stop and the knowledge of what I was doing to my body and ofcourse prayer (for those whose faith plays a part), I could quit! I can't tell you how many times I have relapsed! It is not enough- atleast for me!

After seeing an addictionologist, I firmly believe it is a disease and just like any other disease, one needs treatment! I am seeing the same doctor again today, because I did not stick to a "treatment plan" and have been unable to completely quit.

I hope, Keith, that you can find the help for YOU, whatever that may be, because I know the disguist and hopelessness you are feeling right now! Hang in there and God bless,

M

 
Old 05-26-2004, 12:05 PM   #10
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doggreensector HB User
Smile Re: Back on the vikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by greymatter
listen man,
you can have your opinion and i will not critisize you - that is not what this board is for - it is for support which is all i am/was trying to give. i, and a number of other people believe that ADDICTION is a disease, one of the brain. if i said abuse, i am sorry that is not what i meant. in fact - after reading my post i didn't say that. you didn't offend me, but please don't misquote me.

abuse and addiction are two different things. addicts can't stop taking a drug no matter how much they try - maybe for a week or a month or sometimes longer, but they will always go back - maybe to a different drug, substance, or things like sex or gambling (just as examples) as a way of escaping life and responsibilities or pain of past trauma or life in general. 'abuse' of anything is someone who takes substances for a long period of time, fully aware of the damage they are causing to their body, but in reality thay can stop if they choose to. addiction occurs in the brain and is a fact. abuse w/o addiction is a choice.
but i am not going to try to convince you of something you seem to have your mind made up on.

if you believe 12 step programs and the support that goes along with them does more harm than good in many cases, that is your opinioon and i will not argue. however, i will state that it is 12 step and the support it has given me that has enabled me to be clean for almost a year now. i also believe many would disagree with your opinions on many 12 steps doing 'more harm than good', but that, in turn is just my opinion.
why do you keep going back to substances? do you have a chronic condition that requires you to be on pain meds? seriously - i'd like to know.
would you consider trying to go to a few N/A meetings and voicing some of your concerns, like you have with me, to the group?
they might be able to give you other words or thoughts that i can't.

look, there is nothing i hate worse than someone forcing their beliefs on me either, so i don't want you to think that is what i am trying to do to you. i was/am just trying to help.
but something is obviously still a problem if you keep coming back to one substance or another, even when it seems pretty clear you want to stop.

if you really do, but can't, to me and many others who know much more about this than me, that is called addiction. and it is a proven medical fact that addiction is a disease. if you'd like i can give you a list of over 50 books by reputabile M.D.'s who specialize in that area who say the same thing.
if you are not addict, then that is truly great, but if that is the case stop abusing drugs, just like you did with alcohol.

if you are not an addict, it should be possible.

otherwise, if you keep coming back even though you don't want to (and this is just my opinion, although i know many others as well) you are. i hope i am wrong and you get and stay clean for the rest of your life on your own terms. best of luck to you.

grey
Grey,

I have read your entire post and it seems as though you are taking some of the things I said very personally. If you are not then I am sorry. Research has shown that posts and emails are usually taken with more hostility then was orginally intended.

Insofar as addiction being a "disease" goes there is alot of debate about that. There are just as many people who have done research about this saying that it is not a disease as there are who say it is. Jellinek who the disease theory is based on has actually since the early 60's changed his opinion on his original research. I could name at least 20 well researched books on the subject by reputable scholars who completely refute the the disease theory.

Even the founder of AA Bill Wilson said in 1970 that alcoholism is not a disease entity.

To the extent that abuse is not addiction that seems to me to be pure semantics. Why would someone continue in abuse if it was not to some degree addictive behavior?

As far as 12 step programs doing harm goes, I have seen this first hand. Most people who attend NA or AA make it a sort of religion and call into question anyone who questions the doctrine of the big book or the 12 step philosophy, case in point was a man who came to AA for years who was an out of control heroin addict who at most put together about 90 days at one time. One night he went out on a "12 step call" to meet with someone who was high and got high himself with the person he was calling on. When he came back to the meeting he was berated and humiliated by the group. That was the last I saw him for several years. The next time I saw him in AA he had been shot by a gun looked like he was going to die from alcohol and heroin. He was worse then I ever saw him. Again he was laughed at humiliated and mocked by the group. It may have occurred to someone that AA was not for him and that he try another way of staying clean. Unfortunately in groups like AA and NA this form of "out of the box thinking" is highly looked down on.

If you want to talk statistics most people do not stay in 12 step groups and statistically most people do eventually get off of drugs and alcohol ADDICTION for good. It is a minority that drugs and alcohol end up killing.

In the end 12 steps and NA and AA works for those it works for. Most people in AA and NA do relapse at some point so the benefit of these programs is unsure at best.

But you are certainly entitled to disagree.

Keith

 
Old 05-26-2004, 12:13 PM   #11
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doggreensector HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mise ata ann
Keith

You are punishing yourself and racking yourself with guilt unnecessarily. Would you not believe the combined wisdom of all the scientists and doctors of the World Health Organisation? The WHO states that addiction is a disease. If you can accept this - you will find it easier I think to go forward and seek help.

Mise
All of thise in the WHO do not hold to the view that "addiction is a disease" this is simply not true. Some do and some don't. I am sorry but trying to convince someone to hold to a certain view about addiction is not going to get them sober and clean and even the big books says "self knowledge avails us nothing." I can seek help and not hold to the "disease theory" which is what I am doing.

This is why the 12 step programs are a religion. They work for who they work for. No offense. If it works for you and you are clean and sober then I am happy for you.

Keith

Keith

 
Old 05-26-2004, 01:03 PM   #12
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TrampyG HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

I, too, am a painkiller addict. I do not believe in the disease model and I do not receive a whole lot of help from the 12-step models. I do not believe in God. I do not think any of my drugs problems have anything more to do with a higher power than this computer on which I am typing. In my mind, it is very very simple: I am predisposed to a painkiller addiction -- my body likes opiates (narcotics) more than anything else in the world. I have smoked pot before (never addicted). I have snorted coke before (less than 10 times in my life). I drink a glass of wine or beer a few times a week and do not get drunk or crave it or think about it. I am not prone to addictions but I have a genetic predisposition to crave opiates. It is unfortunate that I needed them for chronic pain because now that the pain is gone, I cannot stop -- but that is not a disease; it is an unfortunate coincidence that my body loves what is bad for me. If one wants to define that as a disease, then fine, it is a disease. But I do not. A disease does not go away. If you put me on a desert island with food and water for the next 50 years, I would live a long and fine life. The first year or so would be hard thinking about drugs but I would eventually get over it and live on. If you put someone with cancer on that island with just food and water, guess what? They would die!! That is a disease = something that cannot be cured by the removal of a substance. I know someone will come back and post that I was never cured on that island despite 50 years of sobriety so to each his own. I do not see a disease and I know God 'aint part of this picture.

 
Old 05-26-2004, 07:10 PM   #13
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Murphy555 HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

Keith,

This is a very interesting discussion really.

Because whether addiction is in fact a disease or just abuse which you can just stop on you own is controversial. I just went through a program where they ALL think it is a "disease" and I was pretty much forced to do the first step (which is telling my life story) or get discharged.

I'm actually not sure what I believe. I DO believe that once you get to a certain point - a very fine line - that abuse can turn into an addiction, and I've crossed that line; and I think it's ignorant of say a psychiatrist to say - you've made a series of mistakes that has gotten you to this place. I KNOW that but to chastise someone for having this "disease" doesn't make sense. In that context, I DO feel it becomes a progressive disease over time.

But I also know that I do not like 12-step meetings. I DO however like small "groups" for support where there is crosstalk in an informal atmosphere. This helps me alot. They are pushing me to go to more meetings and get a sponsor, but for me - it doesn't help that much. Sure, i understand that I'm not along and others have had their hard times with their addictions, but after awhile, all the stories sound like the same. I know I'm not unique. But at the end of the day, when i come home after a meeting, I still feel or wish I had some vicodin (or something) after being abruptly discontinued from the suboxone I was taking.

Everybody is different and different treatment strategies are required for some who don't get into the 12-step program. I respect it, but it doesn't help me.

I have an appointment with an addictionologist tomorrow, which i hope will reconsider putting me on a dose of suboxone. It addresses both my chronic pain and keeps me away from the pills. I was doing well on this. But I'll have to see. Unfortunately my insurance does not cover this Dr. and may not cover the medication after all this, but I'm still going to fight for them to do that; until I can change Insurance In November.

Wish me Luck

Murphy

 
Old 05-26-2004, 08:59 PM   #14
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greymatter HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

doggreensector

i did not take anything you said personally with the exception of you misqouting me - which you probably didn't mean to do anyway.

here is the brass tax of it. i am just trying to help. maybe none of what i said is any help to you and that is fine. i certainly don't mean to **** you off. i have been clean for almost a year after spending 4 -5 years going from h to oc to painkillers. i only know what worked for me and i was hoping my comments would give you some ideas of what might work for you.

i am not trying to fight with you - despite what you may think - because that is not what this board is about.

believe what you want and i hope whatever road you take works out for you. i just know what has worked for me and several others, actually hundreds of others, in my position. i am not a person who relies on faith to get me by, nor do i think that an addict can beat addiction on his or her own. there needs to be support.

if you don't believe addiction is a disease, fine - that's your choice. but i hope you realize that the cycle you seem to be on will continue if you try and do this by yourself. it doesn't work. that i know.

are you still using?

well, if you are, i hope you can get some help. i just don't want anyone to go down the road i have, although it seems that - at least with alcohol - you have been down quite a road yourself.

good luck in whatever you do. but i don't take things you or anyone else here says to me personally because i know where i stand - i'm sober - and i know how i got there.

take care no matter what you want to believe - it really doesn't matter in the end.
all that matters is sobriety.

grey

 
Old 05-27-2004, 04:59 AM   #15
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no patience HB User
Re: Back on the vikes

hi keith whether addiction is a disease or not i just want you to know i'm here to support you people do relapse that comes with addiction i just hope your not being to hard on yourself my sister is a herion addict and i've seen her relapse over and over again but i still give her all the support and love that she deserves it's great that your gonna go and seek help you can be where people can support you in person i hope you don't leave the boards though please post in from time to time and let me know your progress even if it is'nt the best news which i'm sure you'll do great i'm sorry if i'm rambling but i just want to help you in any way i can i'm saying prayers for you ok sorry i can't do more good luck hugs kelleigh p.s i don't know your full story are you taking the hydros for legitamate pain if so there is nothing wrong with that

Last edited by no patience; 05-27-2004 at 05:05 AM.

 
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