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Old 05-28-2004, 06:42 PM   #1
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Changes/Sub

Hi,

Just wanted to let y'all know that I made a change in Drs. yesterday; a warm, caring man, who is willing to give me another shot on Suboxone. This time, it's a little different; I just take 1/2 of an 8mg pill 2x/day as opposed to taking 2mg (up to 12 mg) per day throughout the day. That's discipline for me.

But I started 1/2 today, and it's amazing how it decreased 2 months of my shaking from the inside out. I just feel 'normal' - and suddenly can think of what I want to do next instead of not feeling good in my skin...was beginning to think I was going crazy.

He also may taper me off klonopin altho I just take 1 mg for many years. I'm a little bit afraid of that. I would not mind at least cutting the dose in half to .5 mg, but to get off of it completely would be a huge step for me and he's aware that I'm just afraid to.

As for antidepressant he wanted to prescribe Effexor instead of the prozac, but as a result of hearing so many horror stories of people trying to get off that one, I declined. I don't know; with the suboxone, I feel the depression lift alot anyway.

Anyway, just wanted to tell y'all that sometime change can be beneficial. If I decide to stay with this Dr., I will be severing the relationship of 15 years with my current psychiatrist. But I felt because of many reasons, it was time.

Have a bit of a headache, but I remember I had that too when I first started taking the suboxone and it went away within a few weeks.

Feeling relieved,

Murphy

 
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Old 05-28-2004, 08:29 PM   #2
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Re: Changes/Sub

That's great that you are giving it another try. Why did you stop using it before? I guess that is probably a dumb question. I am on Sub now, have been for about 5 weeks I think, I lost count. I get up and down about it. I don't get the high feeling, but I don't feel clean so Im not to excited about it. I am happy that I am not out chassing pills calling people looking for pills or spending my money on them things. That is the good thing about it all. I get to actually spend money on me or pay my bills. I have taken a total of 3 vic's in the time that I have been on teh sub, of course it does no good. I don't know why I take them? How long after your last dose of sub that you take can you take a vic and feel the vic? This stuff makes me so so sleepy that it drives me crazy. What is so bad exeffor (sp?)? I have not heard anything but I don't take anything for depression, I have wellbutrin but scared to take it as I have heard people having seizures on this. What state do you live in? Did you ask your doctor about wd's from the sub? I am scared of that!!!!!!!!!

 
Old 05-28-2004, 09:07 PM   #3
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Re: Changes/Sub

Murph - I know everything would work out! I'm sorry you had to go through hell to get there... Yes, Effexor... I've heard it's some bad stuff. However, go back and read some of your posts, even when you were on Sub... you were still dealing with some heavy depression... maybe you could consider talking with him about switching antidepressants... just not the that one. I'm happy for you!

 
Old 05-28-2004, 09:28 PM   #4
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Re: Changes/Sub

Hi Murphy, it's good to hear you are doing better. Sometimes it just takes time to find the right Dr that will actually listen to what you have to say. I know I was skeptical of my Sub Dr at first being he had me going in twice a month and I was beginning to wonder if he had me going in so much since I don't use my insurance for him, but he truly does care.
I also agree with Banker and would reconsider taking the Effexor. I have also read where Lexapro is also another hard one to come off of. You may want to check the depression board and see what others are using that aren't so hard to come off of. I know many here talk about not knowing what the long term effects of Sub can do, but from what I understand these Dr's are prescribing stuff like Lexapro and Effexor and telling patients you shouldn't experience any w/d's from them and as you can see on the depression board, there are many people there having some real problems with these two. What about Wellbutrin?

Here is a question for anyone on Sub, does your Dr have you take all your Sub at one time, or through out the day? My Dr has me taking mine strictly in the morning at one time. His reasoning is because he believes if you have different set times throughout the day that you take it when you're ready to come off of it you're going to have to break the habit of thinking "oh, it's two o'clock I would have been taking a pill". Am I explaining this where it's understandable? For myself, it works out just fine that I take it in the morning and I don't have to worry about it for the rest of the day.

I hope everyone has a safe and fun holiday.
Sammi

 
Old 05-29-2004, 02:09 AM   #5
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Re: Changes/Sub

In answer to some questions....WhiteDevil

<That's great that you are giving it another try. Why did you stop using it before? >

****Oh, it's something i did that some people are aware of on this board. Just made a mistake the got the Dr. mad. Maybe it was for the best in a way, because I didn't like this Dr. from the moment I met him. Found another when I was "inpatient" detoxing from suboxone.

I am on Sub now, have been for about 5 weeks I think, I lost count. I get up and down about it. I don't get the high feeling, but I don't feel clean so Im not to excited about it.

***I'm just grateful for today, that I don't have any cravings for opiates. I was already digging into some old darvocets I had last year, and I just got rid of them. I feared relapsing because after 2 months, I was still feeling horrible, and mostly shaking from the inside out. Taking the darvocets probably did not help my w/d's. Don't get high either; actually, just 8 mg today has definitely calmed me, but I have this headache; the same happened last time I was on suboxone. Initially I had headaches, and then they went away. I don't look at it as "feeling clean" or not. I just feel normal and for me that's great. And I certainly don't feel as if I'm using or chasing pills.

I have taken a total of 3 vic's in the time that I have been on teh sub, of course it does no good. I don't know why I take them? How long after your last dose of sub that you take can you take a vic and feel the vic?

****I've never taken any opiated while on suboxone. I don't feel the need to. Are you planning on taking a few vicos? and want that feeling again? I guess that's not a good plan, the idea is to stay away from them, so I don't know how much time has to elapse before taking vics and feeling them. It sounds like to me that you're still craving the vics...I don't know the suboxone kills the cravings for me.

This stuff makes me so so sleepy that it drives me crazy. What is so bad exeffor (sp?)?

****Guess everybody's different. Doesn't make me feel sleepy, in fact, I got more things done today than I have in 2 months. my mind is alot clearer. Effexor - I do read the depression sites alot and read of people's experiences with that particular drug, and getting off of it has been a nightmare for some. I told the Dr. that, and what I've read. Then he did bring up Wellbutrin, but I hate some of the potential side effects of these drugs, as someone mentioned "seizures". I just saw my first seizure up close and personal, in a group where there was a woman detoxing from alcohol and was clean for 7 days. It was scary and awful. So, I'm thinking of asking the Dr. to stay on Prozac, possibly increasing the dose a little before making any changes. Truthfully, I'm mostly there to get the suboxone, plus the fact that he is a very caring Dr. I like him unlike the past Dr. who misrepresented what I actually did to my insurance company.

Did you ask your doctor about wd's from the sub? I am scared of that!!!!!!!!!

*****Well, that's what I was primarily withdrawing from when in the hospital 2 months ago! And that's what I was feeling probably. But, normally, a Dr. will wean a person off gradually from suboxone, and not abruptly the way he did. All I know is that he said to me, for 3 months you'll be feeling lousy! But I know what is feels like to be scared of w/d ing from something. I'm not looking forward to getting off klonopin. I told him I was scared.

Banker

Murph - I know everything would work out! I'm sorry you had to go through hell to get there...

***Banker, well I partially created that hell. I take responsibility for it. I did something wrong and guess I had to pay for it. But I have another chance to do this right, and this time I WILL not take things in my own hands.

even when you were on Sub... you were still dealing with some heavy depression... maybe you could consider talking with him about switching antidepressants... just not the that one. I'm happy for you!

***Maybe, first I want to see how I do on the suboxone. There are circumstances in my life that are pretty depressing. I'm just resisting "trying" yet another one. A/D scare me, the only pills that don't scare me are the opiates and my 1 mg of klonopin!!!


sammi

don't use my insurance for him, but he truly does care.

******So does this Dr. In the hallway at the hospital he quoted me $90 for an office visit (he's not covered under my insurance); but when I finished, they billed me for $170 !!! Yikes. So I decided to be a little assertive and tell them what he quoted me in the hall. So they checked it out with him, and he OK's that knowing my financial situation. Apparently, most people pay $170 for an office visit. The sub cost me $160 today for 30 8 mg pills, but I think my insurance will approve covering this as they did last time. I'll just get reimbursed later.

I also agree with Banker and would reconsider taking the Effexor. I have also read where Lexapro is also another hard one to come off of.

****I just read too many stories about electrical jolts that people feel while they are trying to get off, and continuing for months. I don't want to take anything else that is hard to get off. Ultimately, it's my choice.

You may want to check the depression board and see what others are using that aren't so hard to come off of.

****I have been doing that and actually know alot about all the A/D. I just don't really like them. Maybe Celexa, I'll ask him about that.

Sammi
I know many here talk about not knowing what the long term effects of Sub can do, but from what I understand these Dr's are prescribing stuff like Lexapro and Effexor and telling patients you shouldn't experience any w/d's from them and as you can see on the depression board, there are many people there having some real problems with these two. What about Wellbutrin?

***Wellbutrin was the 2nd one he mentioned, and I have read about that as well. And it just seems like the side effects are worse then the symptoms of depression. For me, I think just getting active again and participating in life will go a long way in helping my depression. It doesn't have to come from yet another pill.

Here is a question for anyone on Sub, does your Dr have you take all your Sub at one time, or through out the day?

****The last Dr. had me taking 12 mg, and I'd take 2-4 mg at intervals during the day/night. This Dr. prescribed 8mg/day, taking 1/2 twice a day. I've already cut the suboxone into quarters because I prefer taking 2 mg at a time 4X a day. I don't think it's that important when you take it. Some people may take one dose at night, because that's when they used so it helps with the ritual they were once used to. People and Drs. are just different.

Well, it's late and I have this horrid headache; I figure it's just from beginning the suboxone again. The brain is strange, isn't it?

Murphy

 
Old 05-29-2004, 05:32 AM   #6
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sadsister HB User
Re: Changes/Sub

Murph-
Hey honey-you are doing it-you sound better..the sub is a good thing-its like w/o some type of opiate in our system we can't deal..so the sub-helps those receptors get happy again-i say-better than the pills-you are under a dr. care-and can be monitored-and will save money..comparitively.
8 mgs..is a good basic dose-im down to 4mgs-and one day-i thought-ill take another 4mgs..in the afternoon-i was moving..and was low on energy-so i did my addict thing-oh-a little more..i got totally ill-my body is so used to 4 mgs..i went nutty-anxious/stomachache/sweating..ill never do that again-ive been on 4 mgs for months now-so i don't think the move to 3/2/1-is gonna be so hard-your body adjusts very quickly to the decrease-cos its really very powerful-
Also-White Devil-Hi-i took a vic once while on the sub-it did nothing but make me sick-and exhausted-never did that again-you won't feel anything..once i figured out by trial that if i used opiates on the bupe-that i felt zero high-and i did try a few times-i blew it off-and thats when the need to use opiates went away-i accepted the sub as it is-and put the dope behind me.
Hope you have a good holiday-stay safe..
xoxo
heather

 
Old 05-29-2004, 06:26 AM   #7
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Re: Changes/Sub

Hi murphy,i just wanted to tell you that I really am happy that you actually found a truely caring dr who you feel comfortable with.Unfortunetly, in most cases, finding a really caring doc who you can really relate to is sooo hard, but boy, you sure do know when it happens.

i don't know just what was up with that little 'team of dr doorknob and scarey nurse'who you were seeing before was all about.i don't think they should even be called healthcare professionals.They had you so scared and so confused, that you didn't know if you were comin or goin half the time.Personally, when you are feeling a little bit better, i think it would be very theraputic for you to write a letter to the AMA about this whole experience.who knows just how many other patients they treated and are treating in the horrible disrespectful manner that they treated you?there behavior in most instances was truely apalling(sp?).Once there is a paper trail on these two,they will be followed a little more closely.and if another patient makes the same claim about them,they will really be a lookin over their shoulders,you know?They just cannot get away with treating human beings who come to them looking for help,like some kind of second class citizens.just something to think about when you are much stronger and feeling ready to take on the world.and that day will come Murphy.you really do deserve to finally have some peace in your life.


I am just so very happy and relieved that you were finally able to find a place where you feel you belong.That is sooo important in you getting better.i can already sense a more relaxed and less stressed you.

I also wanted to mention about getting onto an antidepressant?I agree with you that I think you should wait and see how you do with just the sub for now.You said that you feel some of your depression lifting?why mess with that at this point.give it some time and reevaluate just how you feel in about a month or so.Or if you start feeling sad and depressed before then, by all means, give an AD a try.But the less meds you are on right now ,I think the better.

Just wanted to wish you all the best Murph.it sounds like you are finally in some very caring and knowledgable hands.Take care, Marcia(the 'good" Marcia,lol)

Last edited by feelbad; 05-29-2004 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Being stupid!

 
Old 05-31-2004, 10:33 PM   #8
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Murphy555 HB User
Re: Changes/Sub

Feelbad,

Thanks. he is a very caring Dr. Good with people. Altho, I'm not 100% sure he actually "maintains" people on suboxone, which is what I think I want, at least for a year.

The other Dr. did but I would not go back to him if you paid me (and the bad "Marcia", lol). Except for the suboxone treatment, it was a bad experience. when you think that maybe it's 'you', then I find out that nobody cares for him among the staff and/or patients at the hospital I was at. And Marcia didn't have any credentials of any kind except for being a nurse in the past.

Believe me I have thought about writing a letter to the AMA, there are so many things that were off in that situation, however, that would bring my personal info to the forefront again, and I'd sort of like to put that in the past. Maybe, when I get stronger.

What I am concerned about is this. This new Dr. put me on 8 mg / day; 1/2 2x/day. However, ever since I started, I have been getting the most excruciating headaches along with cravings, etc. I cannot talk to him right now as he left for vacation right after I saw hiim a week ago. Since that time, I have broken the 8 Mg into quarters, instead of halves, and have taken up to 12mg on a few days, which has really helped the headaches and the cravings for whatever reason.

I don't want him to think I'm being non-compliant with his directions, but since he's not here, I decided to spread out the intervals of taking them at 2 mg at a time 5-6X / day. I seem to be doing better on this. I can tell him this in 2 weeks when he returns; then I have an appointment next month (out of pocket); I'm hoping he is willing to adust the dose for at least a little while. The headaches have been so debilitating and I don't normally get headaches.

And I agree with you about changing anything else at this point. Altho this Dr. is surely nice and caring, he has his own agenda about what he'd like to see me try and get off of (like klonopin). I'm willing to wwean down to 1/2 of what I'm taking, etc. but Im not so sure it would be wise for me to stop completely. Another trauma so soon. No, I'm not ready for that.

So, I made a change, but time will tell whether he accepts my input as well as his own. Prozac is fine; and I know I have to make some important life-style changes. Sometimes the answers do not lie in a pill. That is my belief.

Thank you Marcia~ oh I shudder when I see that name though.....

Hugs, Murphy

 
Old 06-01-2004, 05:21 AM   #9
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Re: Changes/Sub

I am sure you do.she was a little nightmare all her own .Hopefully you wont get 'flashbacks" of her,lol.i could always spell my name marsha?would that help at all,lol?

you really do seem sooo much better murphy.There were so many times ,before when you posted that things just seemed so confusing(and I am sure thats how you felt huh?)boy, those two certainly are a piece of work.Unfortunetly, that kind of crap goes on between Dr and patient way too much.i have had to deal with so many different Drs ,between my sons medical problems and mine, some days I could just scream.

i am currently doing the reconsideration for disability.they acctually denied me the first go around, with all of the docmented nerve and neuro damage that i have,i was just stunned.Now i am dealing with all the dang Drs that I have had to see over the past couple years.God, what a nightmare.Half of them take guesses at how you are feeling and what is going on in your body,it just truely amazes me.My neurosurgeon 'forgot' to mention in his op notes( the notes that every surgeon has to make after every surgery) that he hit a nerve inside of my spinal cord causing alot of significant damage and that they had to stop the surgery without getting the whole lesion out of my spinal cord.can you believe that?there is not one bit of info at all about this really traumatic event that is currently wreaking havoc in my life.So, this has been my life.god I really hate drs!!

Are your headaches completely gone now that you adjusted your meds?since your doc is on vacation and you cannot discuss this change with him,just to prove that you are complying as much as possible, i would write down just exactly what you took and why and explain the reaction to it,like it took the headache away.This way you can show him that you were trying to comply and not put anything over on him at all.Do you know what i mean?most Drs think they are god,and that what they say about Rxing info is written in stone and don't you dare change it type additude?I know you know what i mean by that,lol.this just shows him that you are giving it your best shot and that you are truthful and up front with him.The worst thing that you can do in any Dr patient relationship is to ruin that sense of trust.you need that sense of trust in each other in order for you to get the best treatment possible.It would really be a very bad thing if you 'tainted"that right at the beginning.

I really hope that things continue on this great path for you Murphy.You sooo deserve good things to happen for once.I know how bad things had gotten at one point cuz i was kind of there in the same emotional spot at about the same time.No matter how bad things get, you gotta hang in there and keep pluggin away in hopes that things will change for the better.(I keep tellin myself that ALOT these days).take care murphy,Marsha(does that help?lol)

 
Old 06-01-2004, 11:20 AM   #10
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Re: Changes/Sub

Marcia:

I guess I am doing so much better; but I think the struggle with Drs. getting off suboxone to quickly and abruptly etc. feels somewhat traumatic to me, still.

I remember before I got disability, I did alot of reading about it beforehand, and I was astounded at how many people who really needed to be on disability could not get on it. And for the future, I figured I'd never get on it because of all the people that were refused it. I get angry to see all the injustices I see for people that are hardly making it, the ones that need it the most. That's why I was very very surpised when I got it - first try - when my disability benefits ceased from the state. And yes I am/as depressed, etc. and my Drs. substantiated this, and somehow, they gave me disability. I felt a little guilty because what about all the others that really need it for more tangible physical reasons ???? I feel for you, I really do. Sometimes, all you need is a "good" Dr. to fight for you to get the disability you need, and most don't want to be bothered.

My headaches have subsided since I've adjusted the meds, however, I'm feeling guilty for doing so, because I'm trying to be compliant, yet I felt that somehow it was too low a dose. Instead of taking 4 mg 2x/day, I started taking 4mg 3X a day and that helped alot. Then I reduced it to 10mg a day, by cutting the 8mg in quarters, and that was also OK.

I think that's a good idea, FG, about writing the Dr. about what I did to try and get rid of the symptoms, including anxiety and cravings, and it helped significantly. I have no clue why this is. I agree with your assessment of Drs. being "god" and my going off track a bit might get him mad; so I think the best I can do is write him how and why I changed my dose a little and the results.

He does have a son that works with him; same firm; I thought of talking to hiim in his dad's absence, but maybe documentation would be better. It also affects whether or not my Insurance will cover the next script, because if I come in a day early (based on the Drs. instructions) they won't cover it even with prior authorization. So, hopefully he'll change the instructions and put something like 8-12mg/day for the sake of the insurance companies.

But I'm also thinking, I've gotten written off because of my being honest in the past; so I'm a little bit afraid of even being honest. As much as I like the doc, he's wanting to make changes that I don't necessarily want. ie. I won't let him put me effexor the way he wants to. I don't even see the need for changing antidepressants, and he's the kind of Dr. that "he knows best" and that I should put myself in his hands, since he is an addictionologist, etc.

I might not be able to handle being taken off klonopin and while it is not a requirement for him, this is what he wants me to do. I've heard of people who have tried, and had to go back on because it was a nightmare. I don't want to make too many changes at this point.

I hope it works out but in my mind I have to be a little flexible and have a Dr. work with me, not tell me what to do. I have my own input as well.

Thanks~
Murphy

 
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