It's been a week since I stopped using IV Dilaudid. I found a shrink who prescribes Suboxone and I went in and began induction last Monday. At first, I didn't think it would work, because stupid me was in such pain that I must have made the first two tablets dissolve too quickly and I drank the spit. Sounds gross, but when you're in strong withdrawals, you'd do anything to get a little relief. To make a long story a little shorter, I figured out that you have to let the tablet dissolve slowly. So, the shrink basically thinks that I need 12mg. per day, when I really only need 4 mg./day. I guess my question is, how quickly can I cut down my 4 mgs? Prior to using Dilaudid, I was addicted to coke only,no opiates. Strangely, I don't like heroin. It makes me tired, where as, Dilaudid makes me feel energized. Has anyone else ever experienced that? The only time I ever liked Heroin, was coming down off a coke binge since it let me sleep. Besides that, I hate the taste and buzz of H. Liquid dilaudid though is straight love. I shot 1cc every morning, noon, and night and I felt incredible. I could do anything. I only became scared when I tried to stop, and I started having withdrawals. Coke never gave me ANYTHING like that. I completely understand when William S. Borroughs wrote of "the algebra of need". I hated feeling like I HAD to have dilaudid. Last week was a nightmare, I've never felt that hopeless, scared. The cost of treatment sucked ($750 up front, not covered by insurance) and the Suboxone isn't cheap either ($95 for (45) 8mgs.), but I'd pay that rather than suffer through cold turkey. Being a coke addict, I thought I knew pain when I jonesed for coke; I DIDN'T KNOW ****!! Jonesing for opiates is a living hell in itself. The physical panic when there's nothing left, the dealer's slow walking, and the heroin doesn't quite make it better, now that's suffering. I have total respect for those that have kicked on their own. I'm too weak for that, but I'm hoping to wean myself off the suboxone. For some reason, the shrink wants to keep me on this **** for a year! I'm trying to go drug free, and get my life back, and I feel like he wants me to keep using so that he gets paid. Now he's trying to get me to take this stuff called Seroqual for bi-polar disorder. Which I don't think I have, but the seroqual does help me sleep---the only problem is the next day I feel like I'm wrapped in plastic. He think I've got ADHD, though I doubt he'll give me any amphetamines, since he's convinced I'll crush and shoot them. I know this post is all over the board, sorry. I've been reading through the posts, mostly reading "Bankers" entries----she writes well.
So my questions for anyone who's willing to answer:
Has anyone ever gotten a "speed" buzz from dilaudid? I never feel tired, or noddish on it, but I do on H. What's with that?
Is there anyone out there who's ever stayed clean using Rational Recovery or Smart Recovery? I don't like the idea of NA. I don't want to trade my slavery to drugs for sitting in a room talking about dope. I just want to move on. Is that possible?
Since starting Dilauded, I've stopped using coke. Now that I've stopped dilaudid and switched to Suboxone, do I have to worry about getting my coke jones back? undefinedundefined
I get dilaudid(shot in the butt) everytime I get a migraine. I used to get migraines very frequently. I have found that 1-2 mg of dilaudid will energize me and give me an excellent buzz. 4mg will give me one increadable rush and high (although short lived because it is quickly followed by intense sleep for 12-24 hours). 6mg and I od on the stuff. Not cool. And believe me it sucks to wake up with narcan in your system and all the dilaudid gone out. You have one major ha and bad shakes. The dr. that od me felt really bad but I was like you were just trying to get rid of my pain. Don't worry about it I won't sue ya. I don't get ha anymore so I haven't had the need for dilaudid since March. I have found not using the opiates after 5 years of intensive use between morphine, dilaudid, methadone, and duragesic patch that I am once again craving cocaine and meth. It sucks. I need to get my butt back to NA meetings and I know it. The meetings do help me. You should give them a fair try. However, I do know they are not for everyone. Good luck getting off the stuff.
Thanks for the reply. I think I was only injecting 1 mg./ml. IV, but man, what a rush! Doing a shot felt like someone poured hot water over my head. I actually read that you're supposed to slowly inject, but I always shot it quickly, since that's the way I always shot coke----since its rush was so quick, you had to have the needle out of your arm in case you OD, and have to grab your arm. I know that's way junkie behavior, but once you've tried it, and liked it, it's tough to think about doing drugs any other way. Once you're past the stigma, and don't care what others think, it's the best way. It's the most economical, as long as you use a clean needle, and never share or shoot with anyone else, completely safe, clean, and effective. No sore nose in the morning, no clogged sinus cavities. The only problem I've found is that you tax your veins and have to start shooting on your forearms, which is pretty gross. I never got to my hands, but I'm sure if I'd kept going that would have been the next casualty. It's always amazed me how one can descend into one's own personal hell, and if it's a gradual descent, not even notice that you're completely bizarre compared to normal people. I so want to be away from that scene, and I need to relearn my shock and disgust for the act. Maybe going to NA wouldn't be a bad idea...maybe I could meet other people who know what it's like. Sometimes when I read these posts I feel guilty, because most of the people here had legitimate medical reasons for starting to use opiates, or other drugs. I have no excuse other than I liked to get high. I feel like such an *******, like I have no right to complain or excuse for getting addicted. It's all my fault. I accept that I'm a selfish *******. Now, I just want to get healthy for my girlfriend and my family....I don't want to be the black sheep any more....
Don't feel bad about just using to get high. I do have chronic pain and that is how I started but I liked the high just as you. So I used whether I was in pain or not after a year or so. That is the problem with kicking this addiction is that the high feels so good.
You seem to be on the right track and can correct your mistakes before half your life is gone.
I have been reading your post with much concern. I think at the level you were useing that you are trying to come off the Suboxone way too fast. I stayed on 4mg x 2 for a couple of months. My big problem is against Doctor's orders I decided to wean myself by my schedule. It was way too fast. She told me I weaned at least a month quicker than she wanted. So she tried to start me back on Suboxone at 2mg x2 on my 7 day withdrawel. I just could not acccept the fact that I had done those 7 hard days for nothing. So I refused and she gave me some clonidine patches and said come back in 7 days.
If it is possible , I do believe the best success is a 30 day treatment program if you can do it. Go in on about the 2nd or 3rd day of w/d. They will help you both mentally and physically.
Don't be scared about the suboxone. It is probably a lot easier on your body by far than what you were doing. In the next several months , I feel there will be some more on this board weaning off the Suboxone. It is just so new the statitistics are still out on the success rate. I really feel it will be better than not using it because it allows you some time to re-group, build some strenght, get a plan of attack and see life from the proper perspective.
I'm sure you can do it. Just don't be as hasty as I was. I see my mistakes now. Tomorrow will be day 13 for me.
Once again, thanks for the kind & encouraging words. I'll be watching closely your battle with detox, so I know what to expect. How do you feel mentally? I read one of Banker's replies to another "newbie" telling him to prepare for cravings after he'd stablized on the suboxone. I haven't had any yet, at least not any for dilaudid. (Besides, if I were to relapse and do dilaudid, I'd go into withdrawals because of the naloxone.) Can you relate to what she describes?
You should have zero cravings after you settle on a maintnance dose. It is really weird because you just never think about opiates anymore. If you are not careful you will forget about your morning dose of Suboxone. So as long as you are on maintnance you should really start to enjoy life, but the down side is when you finally take that last dose. You will pay the price of the opiate addiction plus the addition of a Suboxone addiction. It has such a long half life that it stays in your system for about 2 days after quiting. You think hey this is not going to be bad, then it knocks your socks off around days 3-5. The intensity of the emotional w/d's get very and I stress very intense. The sub hangs to your recepters like mud. I will be perfectly honest with you that it will be a battle. There are things that I have learned that will make the transition easier for you than myself. I made some foolish decisions because I thought I was stronger willed than I really was. Just don't be hasty and learn how to live again. Your victory will come.
ps The physical w/d's are pretty bad from about the 3rd day till the 10th. It's the emotional w/d's that seems to be everyones problem. I know it is mine. I had a decent day today with a little help of a stimulant but I still came home and cryed and screamed caused I craved a opiate so bad. Nights are always worse for me because I was good and tanked up by 7:00pm. Tomorrow will be day 13.
Thanks for the reply. I've got to tell you that I feel extremely lucky to have found this board, and you. I know sometimes you must feel down, like you can't go on, but I'm counting on your guidance to get off this stuff. I think half the battle is the fear of the unknown. When I intially kicked dilaudid, I could only make it to 18-20 hrs. until I said screw it, and used again. The withdrawals are hell on earth. I used coke for years, and I thought coming down from that sucked. That's NOTHING compared to the opiates....I don't know how anyone kicks cold turkey. I don't know how withdrawals are for you, but it's like time STOPS. You feel like an hour has passed and you look up and only five minutes has gone by. Your whole body aches, yawns, teary eyes, ears popping, can't sleep, can't get comfortable. The day I got on sub, I was losing hope. My mind was starting to rationalize using for the rest of my life. (Have you ever felt like that? I'm always amazied at how I can rationalize the most insane lifestyle, and in some weird way, it makes sense....so you know the insanity I'm talking about?) The most comforting thing about reading yours, Overs, and Bankers posts is that you feel like you're not alone. That's been the worst part of my addiciton; noone else I know is an addict. I live in a total world, isolated from everyone around me, always worried if someone is going to see my arms, how far I am away from a shot. It's so embarrassing. It's so pathetic. That I was somehow going to rationalize that behavior, and continue FOREVER seems nuts now, but a week ago, I was really contemplating it. God blessed me by leading me here to find you guys. Thanks again, and keep up the good work; someone has to be brave to find the way for everyone else. I hope one day to be able to help others who are where I am. Thanks again Fisherman....
Hey Snowdog..... I do apologize if I stated that but that is NOT what I meant to say. I meant to say prepare for cravings when you STOP Sub. I'm going to give you my opinion on how it has helped me... and honestly, it's hard to compare one addiction to another but you were doing some heavy duty stuff....
Here's my take on it - and I haven't tried to come off of it... but here it goes (I'm going to have to disagree a little with Fisherman, although he's been amazing, going through this and helping others at the same time)... First of all, it will only take you a little over 2 weeks to become physically dependant on Sub but more like around 21 days. So... you can do one of two things... you can really decrease now and stop before you get to around day 15 and then deal with possiblly some mild withdrawals for another two weeks or so. OR.... you can stay on Sub for at least a year. Doing this allows you to learn how to live your life seeing it for what it really is. It makes you feel 'normal', period. Yes... will there be times when you still want an 'escape', absolutely, but nothing that you can't handle. I've been on it since Dec 1 and have only craved ONE TIME... It has helped me tremendously.... well, that's an understatement... it saved my life.
So, you can get off of it after two weeks and see how you feel.... and you will have some cravings, but if you get into SMART recovery or whatever you get in to, it will help, no question about it... reason is, because you will have a plan as to how you will handle the cravings when you get off. It will take a few months to get your receptors back to normal (at least that's what I've found on all of the research that I've done.)... That after 90 days... this disease becomes manageable. Doesn't mean you can't still relapse... but it's easier. However,.... a long term program, no matter what it is, is really the best route.
I just wish I could follow my own advice. Anyway, if you stay on Sub for a long period of time,..... as you've read, the WDs can be pretty tough. Not sure if you work, have kids or have someone that can help you during this time... But I promise I do not know what I would have done without it. I was desperate and literally was at rock bottom for me. So....if I had to do it over again, and this is even w/the knowledge (I realize not the actual experience) but I would not change anything. The ONLY reason I'm stopping right now is because of fighting weight gain and the constipation that comes along with it.
Now, obviously the third approach is for you to try the short term, get involved in a program and work it. It will be very interesting to see if this would work... and then if all else fails, and I mean ALL ELSE FAILS... then you could go back to Sub until you feel like your life is more stable, you are stronger and things are back on track for you regarding support systems, relationships, etc. You are blessed and lucky because you have several options right now. My recommendation would be somewhere in between you staying on it for a good while, or you trying the short term and getting in a program to see if you can do it....
I'm excited that you are getting help and aren't killing yourself. Pls stay in contact w/us and let us know, K? Take care,
I don't thinh Banker and I disagree. I read her post and concur with everything she said. You do have options . I had the same ones, even thought about quitting at two weeks. I had read a post a long time ago of a person stated it does not really get a strong hold on the recepters till about the 2 1/2 week mark of using.
Either way, long or short. We all have to pay the piper for our mistakes. The w/d's are going to hurt in either situation. The verdict is out on which is easier. I really think it comes down to the mind set of the individual. Just how bad you want to be clean. It comes down to restraint and will power. Only you know when the time is right. However, you can be foolish like me and over estimate your strong willed desire. I tapered way too fast so I don't know if my examples are comepletly the benchmark. So don't be scared you will feel better in a couple of weeks after stopping. It is a gradual feeling better, you barely notice it first.
I agree about a good program also. It is not possible for me so I have relied on these angels on this forum for guidance. They have been with me when I laughed and cryed. I love each one of them to the bottom of my heart.
Either choice you decide to take , I will watch daily for your post and try to encourage you and advise you to the best of my abilities. Never reley on one person's experience because we all are different.
I agree... I think 2 and 1/2 to 3 weeks... but If I was doing it all over again,.... I would be terrified that that one extra day would be the one that would 'get me'... That's why I was saying two weeks, 15 days, something like that. But you're right... everyone IS different and I have heard where some people can't take Sub at all. It doesn't help them or it makes them really, really sick. That reminds me of a guy named Root. He couldn't take it. I think I'm going to check on him... How are YOU doing? I'll check the other posts when I get to work. You sound better and better... You are helping me tremendously. I know it was bad but you are doing it! VERY proud of you...
I have to add one small thing and i learned this from something I read. Whenever you decide to quit something or start something (exercise, etc.)... it's not about will power because nobody can have that strong of will power 24/7. Now of course, it has to be somewhat... but it's really about how badly you want it. And by looking at Fisherman... he wants to be clean BADLY because he's doing it. At least that's my take on it... and maybe that's because I've always told myself, no matter what, that I have no will power. But maybe it's the same thing? The WILL to want to do it... but throw 'power' in there and I guess I could relate that for me to the fact that it's within my own control to take another pill or for you to take another shot. That's the bottom line... so, I guess it means the same.
Could not agree more about the will power? It is just a man "thing" We grew up in my neck of the woods that real men don't cry. It is hard to break the stero-types we develop in youth. Believe me I know I can cry. Even though I am so set in my ways , I do it in private. LOL
I'm so glad that you responded to my post. I've been sneaking around reading your posts (along with Fisherman's & Over's). It's so nice to be able to talk to people who UNDERSTAND what it's like to feel similarly frustrated with these damn opiates. The worst part of my addiction has always been the "dirty little secretiveness" of it all. My little middle-class world leaves me hiding my use, in everything I do. I'm 34, self-employed, a high-residential remodeling contractor, that you would never guess that I use IV if you saw me. I just don't fit the part---at least the cliched stereotypical junkie image that pops up in people's heads. Not that I feel I'm better than anyone else---not at all; just that you would never guess the secret I keep. I realize all of you guys (Fish, Over, and Banker) don't use IV...so it's probably a little gross for you guys to discuss, sorry. Regardless of the method of ingestion, the behavior still seems similar. The feeling that you've always got to have backup, the cravings, the shame, the general feeling of hopelessness. I like how each of you supports the other, and without making the other feel badly. I think that's awesome.
I'm going to try and cut back my sub. and go clean. I am somewhat concerned about the shrink who's prescribing the pills to me because he thinks I'm bi-polar too, and he's telling me to take this medication called Seroquel on top of the suboxone. I don't think I'm bi-polar. Maybe depressed but, not bi-polar. (If I was, I'd have these great mood swings of mania...I don't remember ever feeling like I was the greatest thing since sliced bread, except when coke was new, but that was forever ago Anyway, should I be concerned about a shrink that's prescribing me more drugs before I even have had a chance to detox from drug abuse that's lasted for the last eight years? SHouldn't he let me get clean first? Those Seroquel are awesome for letting me sleep, but I feel like my brain is getting loaded in syrup when I take them. I'm taking one pill now, and this guy wants me to up it to four pills a day! I'd be a walking zombie!!! The only reason I'm even seeing this guy is because he's the only one in Cincinnati that could take me right now. I don't want to **** him off and have him take away my suboxone...I feel like I'm hostage to him. Man, the withdrawals from the dilaudid were SO terrible that I was scared to lose the suboxone; still I want to be completely drug free, just to feel what the feels like...it's been so long, that I don't even know what NORMAL is! That's pathetic. Anyway, thanks for listening/writing Banker. You're an awesome person, and I feel so lucky to have found you and Fish....take care.
PS. I'm going to cut down my dose before I get hooked, but if I feel crazy cravings, I'll go back on SUB.
Hi Snowdog! I'm going to deviate a little bit about treatment; specifically about dermatological treatment. I just want to ask you and--and former IV--users to what you're using to get rid of your needle tracks. I've been using this over-the-counter product: New Skin scar therapy. Yup, those marks are very embarrassing.
Just a little bit of info about myself: I was "switcher" from Percocets to IV Dilauded not too long ago (about 3 months--similar to you). No cokes or heroine but just as bad (as an addictive behavior). The rush that I felt in my head right after I inject it made it very enticing. I've been trying to get off it by tapering the dosage down. Damn it I want my life back!
By the way, since we have the same drug of choice (IV delaudid), I've been following your progress to betterment. You've been an inspiration. Everyone in here has been an inspiration...Thank you and God bless.
Last edited by Vanguard; 09-25-2004 at 10:58 AM.
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