Today is day 22. I know mentally that without the Chronic pain issue I could continue down the road of recovery. To me that feels pretty good knowing if physical pain was not the issue I could accomplish my task, however I have to live in the real world where without medication my pain ranges from 3-10 everyday. Today has been tough ! I have hurt all over and could not even stand the touch of another person. Not much of a life. What a catch 22?
I went to see my Suboxone doctor this afternoon not really knowing what to expect. Here is the deal. First , I found out she had never diagnosed me with addiction. Boy, I wish I had new that and would have claimed it on my insurance. She had me diagnosed as chronic pain and depression.
I asked her why because when I first came to you I told you I could not control my abusing opiates? She said she suspected that I had a real strong emotional tie but not real strong physical addiction. She said anyone on a opiate will enjoy the Euphoric feeling even though you are getting your main objective of elimanating the pain. I said that still I abused and took more than I was prescribed. She responed that she felt the usage I was on was not covering my pain correctly.
She had without me knowing talked to several pain management doctor's about my case back in July. That is why she was so against me coming off the Suboxone when I did. She reminded me that I demanded to come off against her better judgement.
She wants me to start Subutex 4mg x 2 tomorrow for chronic pain management. It will allow for my emergency Hospital stays to give me other pain meds if the pain level hit 9-10. I am scared a little because she said it lacked a ingredient that helped with cravings that is in Suboxone.
I was also reminded that I told her in July when I was at maintnance dose that I felt better than I had in years. I can't even remember that.
I trust her so I am going to follow that road. Please pray that it is the right decision! I feel a little like a failure but with this pain I just don't know any other choice. I will never abuse again. That is my vow to all my friends who have went through this with me. I hope this drug works for me because I want to get out of this torment.
I still believe I was a addict but know I do know what not to do. I can be addicted but not abuse. I think this might be the key difference. The abuse part. I have soul searched all week with my problem and pray I have those the right road.
With the closing remark, I really hope I have not let anyone down. Your road to recovery might not have a bump like mine. I can never repay you all.
The Following User Says Thank You to fisherpard For This Useful Post: hopeless funk (11-25-2012)
My dear friend Fisherman,
You have not let anyone down, you have been such an inspiration to so many people. You are the reason I have made it through to Day 18, there is no doubt in my mind about that. I can never thank you enough for being such a good friend through this, you have answered every post I have made with encouragement and a keen insight on life, you are truly an amazing person, and I am so thankful to have met you through this board.
I am happy that you have made this decision, your quality of life seemed to be unbearable, and no one should live that way.
Please stay in touch.
Your friend always,
I am glad that you are under a doctor's care, and one that sounds as if she is extremely concerned about you. It's nice to know that she is seeking second opinions regarding your case.
You have not let anyone down. If you are a chronic pain patient... then there really is nothing else you can do other than live a nightmare of a life with no quality whatsoever.
Michelle (John 3:16) was on Subutex and she had relapsed a couple of times on it... however, she was on a very low dose and tried to not to take it as often as she was supposed to because she did NOT want to get dependent... but it happened anyway. So... as long as you are taking enough Subutex... I think you will be fine. And you can only do what you can do. I respect you very much for doing what you just did. Now please tell me.... are the cravings terrible? Are you sure the pain you are experiencing isn't because of the Sub withdrawals? I know when I would withdraw from hydros... My skin would hurt I was so sick... But usually by day 5 or 6, I was better. Actually, much better....
You have been so wonderful for me and several people here... You have actually helped me make the final decision to taper... and I'm scared... but I have to. I just wish I could close my eyes and be at day 99, clean! Wouldn't that be great????? But I'm dreaming and I know I can do this... but I'm trying too fast already. I am trying to drop it too fast. I have to get a pill cutter tomorrow... but it's hard with Sub, because it just crumbles when you try to break it. Anyway, don't be hard on yourself and I'm glad that you will find happiness.
Pls... let me know what is going on with you... you have been such an inspiration for me.
Hi Fisherman I am glad you are going to take something for the pain. no one should have to live in pain.I will be on the computer quite often until I go back to work. So if you need me just give a holler. Also I want to tell you again you will never be a failure in my eyes and I doubt in anyone elses. I normally work 4 days a week but I think I am going to start with 3 for 4 to 6 weeks. I am nervous about going back even tho I am good at what I do The trip helped me in getting used to being around a lot of people again. I am using the ritalin right now and the cravings are driving me crazy. Well talk to you later Your friend Carly
I owe my life to you great girls. Being there and listening to me through my most difficult lines left a imprint on heart that will never leave. I am traveling down a scary road and will always need your support , encouragement and friendship.
I believe the Ritalin is counter productive to me. It gives me extra energy and helps for some of the tough times during w/d's but my depression always gets worse when I use them. I will be glad to give them a toss.
Banker, I only wished it was the opiate w/d's causing my pain but unfortunatly not. You will be done with them in a couple of weeks after stopping. I stressed my body too much for the first two weeks and lack of rest sent me into a full blown Fibromyalgia attack. It is a disease in the Lupus
family. It attacks your connective tissue and almost every joint in your body. I have not had one like this in a while. Two hot baths and the heating pad has brought me a little relief. Slow down that taper, Girl or I'm coming after you.LOL Slowly come off the Sub and even go to chips and then chips every other day is the key. You will be fine by the time you get where I am right now. So don't be scared. I am not craving them half as much as just a few days ago.
It will never be a day that I don't come to this board and see if any of you need help. I almost cried in the Sub office when she said I was going back on but new deep down it was that or go back to the old way. So she seemed to know what she was talking about and made me feel some better. I just so wanted to be free from them but I have several conditions that cause pain other than Fibro so when I treat one it counter acts to one of the others. Can win for losing.
However, at the Hospital today , I saw a young man of 31 and his wife. He has had lupus since age 19 and the lupus had destroyed his kidneys and he had a transplant. His body was rejecting it. The young man probably only has few days left and it made me upset with myself for complaining.
thinking of each of you daily,
Last edited by fisherpard; 09-07-2004 at 07:19 PM.
The Sub doctor wanted me to go back to the 4mg x 2 that I started before. You know how bad I hate to do this anyway.
If you were me , would you try 2mg x 2 to start with and see if that gives me enough relief. Here I go again practicing med. again, I should have went to med school.LOL
Just thought underdoseing would be a better practice than the old way of over doing it. But not following doc's orders got me into the mess so I guess I should just do what I am told and trust their knowledge.
Can't you see how easy it is for you to quit. I am on day 22 and if not for the pain would never touch any again. But I know that if the pain is a little better tomorrow even without the Sub, It is going to raise it's ugly head again and then a be at the ER getting something in the opiate family. Be a lot better with a game plan, I hope?
I am going to pray tonight that I have just the right words for you when you start the w/d's. It's going to happen..................
My doctor (again... sometimes extremely questionable practices) but he told me to take 16 mgs of Sub and I found I really didn't need that much, so I take 12... sometimes, for whatever reason, I may take an additional 4 but I think it's up to the individual. Honestly, I would start out w/what she says... and if it's too much, then go back down... you'll know within the first week.
I am just like you? My family and friends literally call me w/medical questions, etc. My aunt just called the other day... said my uncle was coughing terribly and she gave him an expectorant and it wasn't helping at all... I told her he needed more fluids to loosen the stuff in his chest and she was so relieved... It just cracked me up because she called me a doctor :-) I always say that... We all should know... At least the people that were 'conning' the docs to get drugs. We know exactly what symptoms are related to what illnesses. My counselor stated just the other day that she wished I would have become a Phyciatrist because of my knowledge of mental illnesses and medications associated. But then we realized I would have access to any meds I wanted and we nixed that idea
So... I know exactly what you mean... treating yourself and not always following doc's orders. For example, I will not be telling my doc that I'm tapering, simply because I'm too scared that when I get sober,.... I can't handle it and will need to go back on. Know what I mean?
Again, Fisherman... I would not feel badly for what you are doing. Honestly, you are taking a med where you know it is extremely unlikely for it to be abused... so... it's o.k. You have a medical condition... Honestly, if Subutex can control your pain, I would go on it before I would methadone... just because methadone CAN be addicting...
Take care and I really hope you are feeling better soon. Fisherman, what do you think if I bite the bullet and at least try to go from 12 - 8 so that my time of tapering will decrease? I'm so anxious to get off and get rid of these side effects. And please pray that not only will I have the strength to taper... but that I will have the strength to stay clean once I'm off. That part is starting to scare me badly!!
Last edited by Banker; 09-08-2004 at 02:11 AM.
Hey Fisher...i have been following your posts and thought i would add my two cents....i would start on whatever dose the doctor orders. Like you said, you can't be the doctor now. Under dosing is bad as well, it gave Michelle, a heck of a time. I really thing when on the right dose, sub. works wonders. It truly is a miracle drug. I thing you will be happy with the results. Just take them as ordered and do as the DOCTOR says You have come a long way. I commend you. Pain is an issue for me, as well. My doctor is telling me that as long as i take the pain pills as prescribed then i am not abusing them. It is hard to be on them and not take a few extra for that "buzz" but i know with every buzz there is a "pay-back" and i don't want to go there EVER again!!! You are a tough cookie....i feel you are doing the right thing.
Thanks for your kind remarks , Lisa , this is a scary path for me.
I need ideas from you all.
My biggest side effect from the Sub was constipation.
Give me some ideas to help me with this problem because with the chronic diverticulitus , I don't need to get bound up. I am limited on certain things also because of Type 2 diabetes. I used to drink lots of prune juice but it contains way more sugar than I need.
Hi Fisherman How are you doing today. What I recomend for the constipation is stool softners. My doctor said you can take them everyday with no problem. They take about 3 days to work so take them everyday. Laxatives mess up your system if taken too often. Well talk to you later. Your good friend Carly
Any brand ideas on the stool softner?? I have used everything from Metamucil
to prescription Miralax in the past. I know I high fiber diet always help. Do you think lots of water helps in any way.
I only took 1/2 the dosage of the Subutex this afternoon. Boy did it hit me hard. All those days without a opiate, I had nausua and sweats. I may get by on a smaller dosage than the doctor prescribed. If it works , less is always best. It has given me super pain relief. Other than the side effects, I have had a decent day.
Hi again Fisherman I am glad you had a good day. The brand I use is correctol. I have been doing ok. I have had a couple of panic attacks in the past week but only when I am over tired. At least thats something I can prevent. Talk to you later Your friend Carly
All in all it does sound like you are making the right choices. It's all relative you know...YOU make ME feel like a wimp for my complaining! You are truly courageous and I thank you again for your posts. By the way I'm not 100% sure on this [Maybe others can chime in here?], but I'm under the impression that the extra ingredient in suboxone, as opposed to subutex, is actually to prevent getting high from other opiates - NOT to prevent cravings. My understanding is that the buprenorphine which is the key ingredient in both versions, is what helps to control the cravings and withdrawel symptoms. So maybe you don't need to stress on that point? Anyway I hope I'm right.
Looking forward to your virtual 'pat on the shoulder' as I [and Banker] enter the taper-zone.
Hi Fisherman How are you doing today I am going to the doctor next tuesday and I am going to ask him about the new ad you told me about. I wonder if it can help me fight the cravings for adderall and ritalin. That would be great. Did you gain weight on zyprexa? I was up to 30mg. I am down to 15mg. I am tapering off of it but it is taking a long time. I heard that topamax can help you lose weight. Have you heard of that? Talk to you later Your friend Carly
A lot of people gain weight with Zyprexa but since my dosage was so low it never made a impact with me. Now with the Remeron I am taking now is putting weight on me and I have to be real careful with type 2 diabetes. Really do a slow taper down on that Zyprexa because I tried getting off it on several ocassions and ended up taking it again at around the 5 day mark.
You seem to start having worse depression about that time but if you hold out a couple of days more it will be better.
I really think that new AD Cymbalta has a lot of promise for depression, chronic pain and with hopefully less side effects.
HI again Fisherman Thanks for the information. As for the stool softners I thought I had Correctal in my cabinet but the brand is Sunmark. I think any brand will do. I think the doctor told me it works by providing the proper fluid in your digestive tract. So I believe drinking a lot of water will most defiantely help.As for me I am getting an adderall prescription today so will lay off the ritalin. I was reading an article about kids on drugs and they had written under ritalin will give energy two to four hours followed by depression which may linger. Not may give depression but will give depression. knowing that I dont know how doctors prescribe it much less give it to kids. I hope I get it through my head with my history I should not be on it. Well talk to you later. Hope youre not working too hard. Your good friend Carly
Good morning! Just a few comments to you guys. First of all, I haven't really made a point to methodically taper yet.... however, I'm trying to just take 8 mg instead of 12 and sometimes I take 2 extra which makes me only taking 10 a day right now... Hopefully, I'll do this for about 2 weeks and then drop again. I'm so impatient ( I still swear this is a trait for most of us since we all love immediate gratification ). Anyway,....
First of all, can't remember... maybe Koffree stated that the extra ingredient in Sub was not to help with cravings and she's right. The extra ingredient does two things (and maybe this is just one thing) but it prevents addicts from shooting up the drug, because it will send you into severe withdrawals and it also ensures all opiates are blocked when taking any other opiates. See... Michelle took Subutex and she always craved (but she was on a REALLY low dose and was able to skip doses occasionally, etc.) but one big important factor was when she took other opiates, she could feel them....
Now, Michelle may state this isn't the case but I think it's all in your head and if you know you can feel lortabs or norcos, why not take them on top of Subutex? (At least if it were me, when I first quit - I would probably have done it) Whereas I'm on Suboxone and I know that if I take ANYTHING, it will do nothing. So... it's sort of phycological. Now, I've heard Michelle and Chef and tons of others state that you absolutely do not want to mix any opiates with Bupenorphine of any kind, whether it is Suboxone or Subutex... it can really, really mess you up. Chef has some stories about that.
Also, as far as the constipation goes (and trust me, I am trying to follow my own advice but I haven't been doing it) it doesn't matter how much fiber you eat or how many laxatives you take..... you have GOT to drink more water than a normal person.... Laxatives simply take water within your body and draws it into your bowels to make you go. If your body doesn't have enough water... it does nothing. So.... that's the key - and also exercise.
Now, if I would just follow my own advice, everything would be peachy.
Carly.... friend of mine has a son that is EXTREMELY ADHD and he was on adderal time released. At the end of the day... he would start freaking out - saying he was going to kill himself, trying to get a knife from the kitchen, scratching his face, etc. But when the meds were in his system, he was controlled..... Now the mother told me that they have recently switched him to Strattera and she says he is a different child... she says it's like she has her son back. So.... I would say that stuff DEFINITELY causes depression... Isn't that odd though? That's also good to know since I am considering taking something like that. What does it do to you?
I have had two days with very small amount of pain. I have leveled off at about 3mgs x 2 of the Subutex. It seems to be working with the chronic pain issue. My quality of life has improved that I actually feel like excercising this afternoon.
However, there is some difference between the Suboxone and the Subutex that I have noticed. The Suboxone was more smooth and lots less thoughts on using opiates. It really seems to be the best drug between the two if you can go that route. I just have too great a chance for emergency surgery and high pain levels at the drop of a hat.
I still hate I had to choose this road but I just could not find another solution. I know how we can talk ourselves into justifying almost anything. That is why I brought all the doctors in on this one together. I had four different doctors specializing in different areas of medicine and they all concured that they felt this the right road for me. However, I still have my doubts but time will tell.
The main thing that I have learned through this ordeal is I am taking down my Shingle and quit trying to practice medicine. LOL I will do what the doctors say and only take what they tell me. No more self medicating for me.................
Fisherman, I had a good laugh from the last part of your post. I truly am glad to hear you are doing better. It sounds like your spirits are up again. I know you getting on Subutex was really not what you wanted to do, but think of it this way, being you have chronic pain and knowing that you would have to take some type of other narcotic than the Subutex at least you can control this med. That's what makes it bad for chronic pain sufferers is that we HAVE to take some narcotic at some point or another so it makes me wonder if I (we) will EVER be able to live a "clean" life.
I hope you have a great weekend and DON'T feel guilty about getting on the Subutex. I can't imagine four doctors giving you something that you don't really need.
Hi Banker You asked what the adderall and the ritalin do to me. Well on the postive side they improve my concentration. I can't even concentrate to even read without one of the them in my system. I get depressed on the ritalian not on the adderall even tho some people do become depressed on the adderall.I have read that less people become depressed on adderall then ritilian is because as adderall goes out of your system it is more smooth not like the big drop ritalian causes. If I can answer any more questions let me know. Carly