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Old 09-01-2006, 05:59 PM   #1
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LukeJ12 HB User
Desperately Need Help

I am new to this board and I guess I'm seeing it as my last hope. My story is a long one, but I'm going to post the short version. I have significant problems with my back and have gone through the gamut of treatments including surgery. Along the way I became addicted to hydrocodone and was clean for almost three years. My pain has been controlled through a combination of spinal injections and MS Contin 15 mg. twice a day. I've been on the MS Contin for almost a year and I never abused it. I also had no desire to use the Norco and the morphine really gave me a much higher quality of life.

Last year I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and had surgery. Afterwards I had just about every complication one could have. They were giving me my oral morphine but they also were giving me hydrocodone and oxycodone. To make a long story short, it took a while of "playing" with Norco after I got out of the hospital before I got to the point that I am now seriously hooked again. I am taking about 25 to 30 10 mg. Norcos a day. I am seriously depressed over this situation to the point that I have some suicidal thoughts. I cannot tell my doctor the situation because I know he will cut me off the MS Contin and I have never abused it and as I said earlier it has been a blessing to the quality of my life.

I am trying to cut down but am not having much success. What I really need if someone has this information is a plan for cutting down on the Norco until I am off of it. I can't do a cold turkey as when I tried that I ended up feeling so bad I used more that day than normal.

I am literally begging for some help here. Does anyone have a "recipe" for slowly cutting down on the Norcos to the quit point? I would be eternally grateful for any help I can get. I know I could follow a cut down plan to the T because I did that before but I don't remember how I did it and I am so anxious and toxic now that I can't think straight enough to put together a plan on my own. Will someone please, please help me?

 
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:06 PM   #2
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kim4074 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

I'm gonna go back some I know at one time there was a post about tappering off and that might help you some too. Kim

 
Old 09-01-2006, 08:12 PM   #3
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LukeJ12 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Kim, thank you for responding. I would certainly be appreciative if you could find the post. I just feel so hopeless right now.

 
Old 09-01-2006, 08:15 PM   #4
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kim4074 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

here is something I have found but will continue looking I will know the name if I see it and I know it was either in april or may that is was posting since that was my time quitting. this is from a different member not the one i was looking for but this might help some. Good luck Kim



The withdrawal/detox itself will be over in 5 - 10 days. Those symptoms you describe are all typical and there is no shortcut to getting through them. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

However, after the withdrawal itself, a person still undergoes a sort of "rebound effect" due to deprivation of narcotics which makes one quite weak and restless and susceptible to chills, night sweats and insomnia for some time (up to 30 days) even after detox. The rebound effects can be marked enough to seem like continued withdrawal and can lead to relapse, so you have to be extra vigilant during this time.

I have been clean and sober for years and found that the worst rebound effect following narcotic withdrawal is INSOMNIA. Not being able to sleep a full night for a month is no picnic, and many people crave some sort of relief during this period, including going back to the opiates.

SOME TIPS TO DEAL WITH post detox WITHDRAWAL AND REBOUND EFFECT:
-Avoid any drugs whatsoever. Sleeping pills, benzodiazepines like Valium, muscle relaxants like carisoprodol (Soma), etc.; these do not really help as much as you might think and simply prolong the recovery period. The sooner you allow your body and brain (neurotransmitters) to adjust to functioning without any drugs the sooner you will feel better.
-Try herbal remedies for the rebound effects such as weakness and restlessness, chills, night sweats and insomnia. Do not discount the proverbial warm glass of milk at bedtime.
-Proper diet -- essential. LOTS OF FLUIDS -- flush your system out and hydrate your dehydrated body recovering from detox. Vitamins and other supplements may help your body recover sooner as well.
-Exercise as soon as possible, even if this means just taking walks or getting out of bed to walk around. The sooner you get back into some form of real exercise, the sooner your body will recover.
-Try sauna and steam rooms if available and repeated hot showers to "sweat it out" and ease the chills. Hot showers will also help you sleep.
-Try not to focus on the rebound effects and instead focus on recovery and the fact that as long as you stay drug free you will be FEELING BETTER EACH DAY. Attend as many recovery oriented group or therapy meetings as possible.

The key of course to staying clean and sober after any withdrawal is a program of recovery, whether “powerlessness” 12 step oriented like Narcotics Anonymous,
or “self empowerment” oriented like Smart Recovery.
was my w/d time.

 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:04 PM   #5
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Philster2003 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Luke;

I certainly could help you devise a taper schedule, I've done many for so many in the past. If you did a search of this board for "taper schedule" you would find many examples. I'll paste in a few links also

If I knew exactly how many pills you take a day at what frequency like 3 or 4 every 3 hrs or 8 every 8 hrs or 6 every 6 hrs.

Glad to help you out, I’ve had a lot of experience tapering, successfully I may add. I've also gone the CT route so I've had plenty of experience, to much experience ha

Take care

[url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10896&highlight=taper+s chedule[/url]

[url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10824&highlight=taper+s chedule[/url]




phil

 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:13 PM   #6
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LukeJ12 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Kim, you are an angel. I'm going to start cutting back very slowly everyday and try to minimize my wd. I am in a position where I can't be sick every day so I will have to go slow. I am terrified of the wd but your response to me has really helped because I don't feel alone. Feeling alone and facing wd is the worst thing in the world. All of my friends are professional people who if they knew would be kind to my face but would judge me severely. It feels good to have at least one person to share with. Thank you so much for taking an interest in my situation.

 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:22 PM   #7
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LukeJ12 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Phil, if you could help me I would be very grateful. I take Norco 10/325. My general pattern is to take 8 to 10 when I wake up because I am in wd at that point. I usually wake late because of the drug so it's usually about 1 pm when I take the first dose. Today I felt so bad I took 6 when I got up and even after an hour I was withdrawing so I quickly took 6 more. That's the first time a dose of 8 to 10 didn't work--maybe because I am all keyed up about quitting and feeling horrible anxiety. After I get my initial dose in, then for the rest of the day I take 4 pills every 2 hours. I take these at 3, 5, 7, and 9. After the 9 pm dose, I eat and I take some prescribed medication that tends to make me sleepy or at least I don't feel any wd. I generally fall asleep around 3 am and then start all over again the next day. With this information, do you think you can help me? I would be very grateful because right now I feel lost. Thanks for your interest.

 
Old 09-02-2006, 06:19 AM   #8
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kim4074 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Here is a taper I think its it is by philster too what a lot of work to find this stuff any ?'s on this I would ask phil. Hes the master taper!! Kim


You will need an interval timer like a kitchen timer or medication timer. The Timex Iron Man watch has auto repeat interval timer built in. In this taper the time between doses is increased each day with occasional dose adjustments. You really have to make sure you hit the times dead on thus the need for the timer. You have to wake yourself up in the middle of the night. (you can buy a pill cutter at your pharmacy or grocery pharmacy area)
OK this plan will take aprox. 380 10mg pills.(about 140 more then you currently have)

Initial dose, 3 pills each interval
day interval
Day 1 3:00 hrs. (24 pills per day)
2 3:15
3 3:30
4 3:45
5 4:00 (18 pills per day - 25% reduction)
6 4:20
7 4:40
8 5:00
9 5:20
10 5:40
11 6:00 (12 pills per day - 50% reduction,)
now reduce the dose to 1.5 pills at each interval and do days 12-22 having a 75% reduction at the end of 22 days and only taking 6 pills per day
12 3:00 hrs. (12 pills per day)
13 3:15
14 3:30
15 3:45
16 4:00 (9 pills per day - 25% reduction, 62.5% overall reduction from start)
17 4:20
18 4:40
19 5:00
20 5:20
21 5:40
22 6:00 (6 pills per day - 50% reduction, 75% overall reduction from start)

now reduce the dose to 1 pill at each interval and do days 23-33. At the end of the third period you will be down to 3 pills per day and 87.5% reduction.

23 4:00 hrs. (6 pills per day)
24 4:20
25 4:40
26 5:00
27 5:20
28 5:40
29 6:00 (4 pills per day - 33% reduction, 83% overall reduction from start)
30 6:20
31 6:40
32 7:00
33 7:20
34 7:40
35 8:00 (3 pills per day - 50% reduction, 87.5% overall reduction from start)



now reduce the dose to 1/2 pill at each interval and do days 36-48. At the end of the third period you will be down to 2 pills per day and 94% reduction
36 4:00 hrs. (3 pills per day)
37 4:20
38 4:40
39 5:00
40 5:20
41 5:40
42 6:00 (2 pills per day - 33% reduction, 92% overall reduction from start)
43 6:20
44 6:40
45 7:00
46 7:20
47 7:40
48 8:00 (1.5 pills per day - 50% reduction, 94% overall reduction from start)

for the final taper down, take 1/4 pill taking the interval from 6 hours to 12 hours by 1/2 hour increment a day.

49 4:00 (1.5 pills per day)
50 4:30
51 5:00
52 5:30
53 6:00 (1 pill per day - 33% reduction, 96% overall reduction from start)
54 6:30
55 7:00
56 7:30
57 8:00
58 8:30
59 9:00
60 9:30
61 10:00
62 10:30
63 11:00
64 11:30
64 12:00 (.5 pill per day - 66% reduction, 98% over
uff before it was everywhere!!!

 
Old 09-02-2006, 11:40 AM   #9
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LukeJ12 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Kim, thank you for the taper schedule. It's sort of overwhelming, but I am determined to do this and I will start with it today. I can't tell you how much it means to me to have this help. Phil might still send me a schedule and I would follow either one if he thinks either would work. Thanks again, I am so very grateful.

 
Old 09-05-2006, 08:21 AM   #10
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Philster2003 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Hi Luke, sorry was out of town but I’m back.

I've found that if you are to taper successfully or have any chance of tapering most likely will require you to get on a more regulated intake schedule for the pills. What I mean is you need to take them on time schedule like 4.5 pills every 4 hrs instead of 10-12 then 4 every 2 hrs. If you were to take 4.5 pills every 4 hrs that would equal 27 pills in a 24hr time period. Right now I think you are taking around 24-26 per 24hrs? The key to a good taper is to increase the time between doses, which by default reduces your overall pill consumption.

If you can get to a normalized or regular pill consumption rate then I think we can gin up a taper schedule that would be very attainable. If you can’t get normalized then you are really left with reducing the quantity taken each time you take your dose, for instance instead of 10-12 pills when you first wake up you only take 9 or 10 and then when you take your 4 pills every 2 hrs maybe only take 3.5 pills at some given point. To me this is a very hard way to manage a taper. It’s almost to complicated to be achievable.

Hopefully this makes sense. Let us know what you think and what you think is achievable.

Thanks

phil

 
Old 09-05-2006, 08:24 AM   #11
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Philster2003 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Oh and if you can get to a 3hr schedule then the plan Kim published would work for you I think. 3 pills every 3 hrs and then gradually increase the time between doses (ala schedule)

phil

 
Old 09-07-2006, 07:37 PM   #12
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LukeJ12 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Phil and Kim,
I just wanted to let you know that I am doing well with the taper. Today I increased the amount of time to 3 pills every 4 hours and it seems to be okay. I won't say it's easy, but at least I feel I am doing something and that before too very long I will be off. I know this is a different taper than the one I used before, but as I said, it's working so I'm not questioning it. I sure appreciate both of you being here for me. Thanks.

 
Old 09-09-2006, 08:41 PM   #13
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kim4074 HB User
Re: Desperately Need Help

Thats great, keep it up and before you know it you'll be pill free. Hey and it sure beats c/t!!!! Kim

 
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