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Old 10-27-2007, 02:04 PM   #1
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Unhappy Time for truth from Mags

Hi All:
I haven't been around too much lately besides responding to a few here and there.....and that is bcuz i have so much to say and don't know how to say it.
About 2 wks. ago (or less) i came up with the idea that i felt truely "stuck" at 2 mg and couldn't see myself going lower with having to work and function. So i got ahold of Lorcets and began substituting them so i could taper off the sub. faster. I know i know, your thinking "what the hell did u go and do that for?". Bcuz i really felt like it would help me.....and it has in the fact that i've gotten down to .5mg and only take that .5mg every 3-4 days. BUT, i'm now dependent on Lorcets. I'm taking 3 in a.m. and 3 in p.m. And to be honest, i'm STILL going thru mild withdrawals off the sub. I didn't think that would be possible, but i guess it's cuz it's a different make-up then Lorcets.
I'm not sleeping well once i get to the 2nd-3rd day from when i took that .5mg of sub. And i'm depressed and very emotionally unbalanced.
I really feel like giving up at this point.
And the really scarey part for me is that i have MAYBE 4 days left of the Lorcets....then i'm done. And i don't want to go backwards and end up taking more sub. to get thru this.
I don't know what my reasoning was for doing this stupid move, i guess it was me thinking that i could "handle" the lorcets and take less each day. Like start with 4 a day, then keep going down as i'm lengthening the spaces between my sub. dose. NOPE! I'm an addict, and i can't handle the way i'm feeling coming off this sub....so i'm taking Lorcets to fill the void.
Of course the Lorcets suck bcuz they only "last" for maybe 1-2hrs, then i'm left feeling worse than before. But for me, atleast for those 2 hrs i'm not feeling like total hell and wanting to "give up" on everything, life included.
The mental part of this is truely horrendous.....i can't be alone with myself when feeling this way. I wish i could check into rehab, but with no money whatsoever, that's not an option.
I'm hoping that you all won't yell at me too much about this. Bcuz i know that was a stupid decision on my part, and yelling won't get me out of this situation. I just need some ideas i guess.
I really thought (at the time i decided this) , that it would help me in getting off sub. completely. Then i could deal with tapering slowly off the Lorcets...since at the time i was expecting to only be taking maybe 2 a day. So i knew it would be easier than the sub. And trust me, the sub. is harder tocome off of bcuz it's much stronger and lasts longer.
So this is where i'm at: .5mg every 3-4 days and 5 Lorcets a day (7.5mg)......will be done w/lorcets as of Monday.
I feel awful and have wanted to share this will you all for the past week, but felt so frustrated and angry with myself that i couldn't sit down and get it out. Please help with some advice, not judgement right now. I have enough judgment coming from MYSELF and the guilt is just horrible.
I want to applaud ANYONE who is sober and has successfully come off opiates...bcuz this is such a HARD battle to fight and win...it really is. So all of you who are sober, really stop for a minute and congratulate yourself again on how awesome you are and how much strength, courage, and will to make it you obviously have! RIght now, if i had the option to trade places with a millionaire, or someone who has successfully come off opiates....I'd choose the sober one! That's how defeated i feel right now and that is how HARD i see this road ahead.

 
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Old 10-27-2007, 02:35 PM   #2
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Hey Maggie
I wont judge you because I myself have tried painkillers to get down in sub dose as well. I always messed up and took more sub than usual when the painkillers were out though-- at least you are on .5mgs. Just wait it out and see how you feel monday. If you have to, take .5mg of sub the following day and then just jump. Its going to be almost impossible not to feel bad in some sort of way from whatever we decide. Buck up and do it kiddo. Im envious that you made it to .5mg--thats great! Im stuck at 2mgs- but going down fast because i will be out of sub in about 8 days or so-- Can you switch to some darvocets after the sub is gone? those are mild and should take the edge off. Or get some clonidine and go for it- -good luck!

 
Old 10-27-2007, 02:47 PM   #3
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Hey Maggie,

don't go beating yourself up, atleast you are here asking for help. You are not defeated. I have been off of methadone now for going on week number 2. I went down to the health food store and picked up Detox tabs and "all body Cleanse". I have never used anything like this before , but hey..I was desperate! I really did start to feel better after about 24 hours. I took a few muscle relaxers before bed too. Seemed to help a little as well. Atleast I didn't feel like crawling out of my skin as much My thoughts and prayers are with you. You can do this.

Lucy

 
Old 10-27-2007, 02:51 PM   #4
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

allright now time to suck it up and be an adult women about this thing.first of all THIS CAN STILL WORK IN YOUR FAVOR IF YOU WILL SUCK IT UP AND DO IT AND NOT WORRY ABOUT HOW BAD IT IS FOR YOU.#1 you have not been taking hydros long enough to be readdicted to them if you will truley stop on monday.if you dont stop then yes you will be readdicted to them and the cycle starts over again.

#2. no matter what, you have to quit taking sub. with hydros or viceversa.anytime you mix sub with any opiate it really messes with the brain and the receptors dont know what to do.trust me i have done this and after a period of time of mixing the two i literally did not know which way was up.it put me in a type of drug psychoisis of sorts and almost made me crazy,so you have to stop one or the other.

#3. this might be the best thing that could have happened for you since you were in a "stuck"position with the taper off the suboxone.the only way it can work for you is if you quit the hydro on mon as you say and stay on the sub at the .5mg dose and never ever take more than the .5mg.keep in mind that you will have some w/d for about a week or two but your body will level out with the .5mg dose and you can continue the taper as you normally would.

#4.if you dont do this and you keep flipflopping back and forth and up and down you will never get clean and will eventually relapse to harder drugs,i guarantee it.you will never be able to start a family as you want to.make up your mind now what will it be.good luck-spark

 
Old 10-27-2007, 03:56 PM   #5
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Hi Maggie

Sigh. I am sorry you are in yet another crappy place. Maggie... the self-medicating needs to stop. It just needs to stop. To sit there with an addicted mind and think that a way to get out of addiction is going to enter the brain is just not a reality of any kind at all. Sigh. You are a patient, Maggie, not a doctor and that is why you went to a doctor for sub. Patients need to follow doctor's directions, not make up their own. You have tried making up your own for a long, long time and it has never worked. use your experience and knowledge of this and stop trying a way that has proven to be a failure over and over again. Not judgement here, Maggie, just facts from an outsider's perspective.

Maggie, in my thinking, you need to get back on the program with the sub and work it. Of course it is hard, of course it is. Do not think the memories of what I had to endure myself have faded that much. No ONE enjoys withdrawal, NO ONE. And each time I made a cut in either the oxycodone or the Xanax, I hated what followed. But I hated even more the life I had found myself in. I am not the superwoman some perceive me to be. I am a woman who wanted her life back badly enough to fight for it.

Are you really willing to fight to have your life back and be able to move forward. Are you going to meetings? I think they could be a source of help for you. To continue to continue the way you have been is just not conducive to progress. Maggie, if you had cancer, would you just say chemo was too hard or would you fight to live? This addiction is a cancer in you, Sweetpea, and unless you fight and accept what comes with the fight, the battle is going to be lost.

Oh, Maggie... I want to hug you and tell you all will be fine. We all care about you, but until you start caring about yourself, all the cuddling and caring in the world is not going to help other than a fleeting moment. And life is so much more than a moment. To feel better for the rest of your life, you are going to have to endure the pains of withdrawal. Just like having a baby... only labor is not unstoppable. ( Good thing.Smiles.) And look what labor produces.... a beautiful new life. That is what withdrawal and recovery produce also, Maggie... a beautiful new life. Is it what you want or not?

I am glad you have been honest with something that was hard to say. Sometimes I think a difference between us is that I couldn't endure the mentl pain so I endured the physical to get rid of the mental pain. I think that the physical pain does you in. It is NOT permanent, Maggie.. the physical symptoms are NOT permanent. They subside with time and eventually go away. It took me a year to feel normal. I know that can sound like an eternity, but it is only a small portion of time compared to my whole life. It is done and over with now. I don't ever have to go through it again. I want the same for you....
reach

 
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Old 10-27-2007, 05:21 PM   #6
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

nice post reach,it should really be a wake-up call for maggie.it all depends on how bad she really wants to be clean.good luck to you mag-spark

 
Old 10-27-2007, 06:19 PM   #7
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Hi All,
Well i didn't expect to be coddled (sp?) with what i was sharing, and i knew that the responses would be blunt. But i'm not going to sugar coat what i'm feeling right now either......anger. Anger bcuz it is so hard - and it's easy for "sparks" to sit here and tell me to "grow up", maybe bcuz he isn't going thru the actual withdrawals at the present time.
I've always had issues with not feeling well...on a daily basis. So when i was 1st prescribed an opiate, it helped me finally feel normal. I could actually DO stuff and not be in pain or so damn tired bcuz i had just gotten rid of a terrible migraine.
Maybe it's bcuz (and this is a doctors theory) i have daily headaches, and coming down off those headaches can be exhausting and enhance depression.
I'm not at all saying that I have more reason to use, or that it's harder for me. Cuz i know that every addict is the same as me, but i am saying that i'm seriously wondering here whether i can live a HAPPY, NORMAL life without opiates.
Cuz the subaxone really has helped me tremendously. Not just with my migraines, but with my fatigue and my depression. But, I want a baby.
And I am HOPING AND PRAYING that i will be able to get back to myself of old after time passes.....bcuz there was a time when i had to be fine without opiates bcuz i wasn't prescribed them until age 24. And even though it is a VERY distant memory, i assume life was good up until that age.
Except for the chronic fatigue and constant pain. And i've tried to get it taken care of thru doctors and non-narcotic meds. I just have had no luck.
So i'm having a hard hard hard time with this. When i'm coming off this and i'm not have just taken Lorcets, i feel so horrendous (not just physical) that i don't feel like i have the strength to do it. I really truely have doubt that i'm strong enough. I have failed at so much in my life, and i see myself as a failure on a daily basis bcuz of how long this is taking me to get off of, and wondering if i'll even be able to do it at all.
I haven't been able to get enough will-power to do ANYTHING i set my mind to in over 3 yrs now. Whether it was to diet (even for ONE day i haven't made it).....or to exercise (not even made it past 1 day)....so i set myself up for failure when i know i'm not strong enough mentally to do these things.
Beat me up all u want about saying that...but it's just how i feel.
I KNOW i need to get back to meetings. That is where i'll find some strength, it's just getting the strength up to GO! I fall into SUCH a deep depression when i'm going thru withdrawals, and if u don't know what real clinical depression is like, it's paralyzing.
But as u both (reach & sparks) said, i have to want this enough to do it. And i guess i'm just going thru a few bad days of questioning whether i want this enough. Not even if i WANT it enough, but if i'm too weak to do it.
I hate myself for being this way, and i have such guilt for not being the best i can be in life. I look around at my peers and see such amazing people with such strength and energy for life (without self-medicating) and i am embarassed at who i am. A weak 31yr old woman, with no will-power and no real "fight" in me. I want to change that, but i wonder if it's too late.
This is just me telling you what is in my heart......being completely, disgustingly, honest. Not to be judged, just to be COMPLETELY HONEST.
And being honest here, i am going out of town with my Mom on Thurs-Sun and i SOOOO don't want to be sick and detoxing when i'm away. I want to ENJOY myself and not have every minute tied up in feeling like crap! I don't want to have to carry this with me on our time away to enjoy ourselves.
So this is what i can do......i will drop the amount i'm taking of Lorcets for next 2-3 days, then get back to JUST subaxone and lower after a week or so. That way when i'm away with her, i can atleast have the sub. (at small doses) to keep me from being too sick. I just don't want Wednesday to come and me be so sick mentally and physically that i won't want to go away.
Like i said in previous post, believe it or not i'm still going thru withdrawals from lowering my sub., even though i've been taking Lorcets. Which is weird, but i DO feel like i am moving somewhat forward in this. I don't feel like i've stepped too far back to where i'm in over my head. I don't know what else to say at this point. I'm just trying to get thru each day as best i can.

 
Old 10-27-2007, 06:56 PM   #8
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

I don't normally post here, but the despair in your posts touched my heart.

First off, you are probably experiencing these withdrawls because you are mixing Loricets with the sub.

Secondly, IMO and from personal experience getting sober has NOTHING and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to do with will-power. I have no will power what-so-ever and yet I have been clean and sober for many, many years. I tried many, many times to get clean but without help I found it impossible. I had to completely give myself over to a 12 step program. Without the people in the program and my higher power I would be dead right now and that is a fact.

I know that some people have been able to do this without a 12 step program, but I wasn't one of them. I needed help, the kind of help that I could only find in AA (or NA or CA). Only other addicts can understand what you are going through and only they can give you the tools you will need to get and stay clean.

I think this board is wonderful and so are the people here, but I also believe that us addicts need "live" people in our lives to help us. People who can look you in the eyes when they speak to you. People who can hug you when your down and physically pat you on the back as you reach your goals.

I know that it can be hard to get the energy to get to meetings, but if you put as much effort into getting to a meeting as you did in aquiring the drugs, I think you will be amazed at the progress you will be able to make.

Please don't look at this as being weak. I don't know very many addicts who have will power. I hope that you will think about this and try meetings again.

I hope I haven't offended anyone by my above statements. This is just my opinion and is wholly based on my experiences in getting AND staying sober.

Good luck Mags. I will keep you in my prayers.

Lizzie

 
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:03 PM   #9
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Maggie Dear

Please get off the defensive and understand that Sparks and I are wishing nothing but the best for you. It IS hard, Maggie... not one of us here doubts or doesn't understnd that. Truly.

Maggie, perhaps you don't know that I had had a complete breakdown BEFORE I started the tapers off drugs. Complete. And I do understand totally how paralyzing clinical depression can be. I have gone through it twice in my lifetime and I fear it greatly. For me, it was even more serious than the cancer I survived.

And you know what Maggie? It took TIME for me to overcome cancer and depression. It took a full year to go through the surgeries, radiation and chemo for cancer. It was painful both mentally and physically. It took another year following thet to come out of a depression so deep and paralyzing that I actually did not speak (me!) for months. I had neither the desire not the strength to do so. When I fell into the deep depression this last time, caused in large part by the drugs, it has taken me another full year to completely recover... I started last October, and this past month my last symptom... inability to sleep, is fading rapidly suddenly.

I am not trying to elicit symapthy here. I am trying to get you to understand that time is what is needed to recover. I don't know of any way to make our bodies recover faster than they are going to. We have to give them time to adjust to each cut. We have to understand... and accept.. that each cut is going to feel crummy and that we endure it because we know that someday, in time, we will be making the last and final cut.

Life goes on, Maggie, because that is what life does. We can not control time. We can not make our bodies and brains march in time to a a particular rhythm just because we want it to do so. If that were the case, all of us who have gotten off drugs would have chosen to do it overnight, not over the course of months and months.

I think maybe that some work on understanding 'living in the moment," "seizing the moment," is needed. Perhaps if you tried to forcebally change your thinking on these things it would help. Try not to live in the moment by seeing the moment as torturous. Try living the moment as seeing it as one more moment that you are surviving and heading towards getting better. And if it seems impossible to see that at any given moment, then distract yourself and sing, recite a poem, talk to someone (yourself if you have to)... anything that will keep you moving forward. I use to say repeatedly to myself at the height of anxiety a mantra given to me by my doctor.. "I am getting better and stronger everyday."

And no, Maggie, I do not believe you have stepped back too far yet. I hope fervently that you never do. I just believe you are too impatient to get done with everything. I understand it can be frustrating... damn, I lived in frustration a whole lot during tapering! But I also always reinded myself that there was an end that would come. And it came. Seemed like a million yeatrs along the way sometimes, but it finally came.

I hope you do enjoy yourself on Wednesday with Mom. We can only see what happens. That is all any of us can do in any situation in life... hope for the best and see what happens. Time will tell.

Hugs
reach

Last edited by reachout; 10-27-2007 at 07:06 PM.

 
Old 10-27-2007, 07:38 PM   #10
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Hey Lotty:
Thanks for your post. I agree that I need to get back into meetings. I did feel so much more HOPE when i was going. I guess i've always felt guilty about being on sub., so i stopped going bcuz i didn't feel like i was totally sober. But i also know that there are many people that show up drunk/stoned and keep coming back, and eventually they decide they've had enough and want to get sober.
I know that me working the program will help greatly. It's helped me so much in past. I just need to get the "umph" to get up and go. My hubby is recovering addict (3 years sober last week!!!!) and has been wanting to get back into them, so i need to do this not only for me, but to help keep him motivated in staying in the program.
Thank you for your words of hope. And thanks for letting me know that i don't need will power to get better. Hopefully one day i'll be able to work on my weakness with will power, but it feels good to hear that i can do this even though i'm feeling weak in those areas. Thank you again sweetie!

REACH: I'm sorry for coming across bratty and defensively. I'm just a crank-pot. Not your fault and i appreciate all the time and support u give to me.
I really took to heart what u said about being more patient and knowing that this doesn't happen overnight. I guess part of being an addict is having an "all or nothin'" attitude.....which has gotten me NOWHERE obviously.
So i'll try your approach and be more patient with this....when i'm "in my head" and feeling so overwhelmed and defeated, i'll remember to say a prayer and give it over to God. I forget to do that, and as my Mom reminded me today....I can't do it without Him.
I have to hold onto some sort of Hope that this will come to an end and i will live a happy sober life. And i get all caught up in rushing things so i can get pregnant......when this really can't be rushed. It just can't.
I have to shamefully admit this: My best girlfriend is pregnant again (she was preg. when i was the 1st time but i lost my baby).....so it is a reminder of what I COULD be right now and i'm not. And i'd love to share in pregnancy with her.
But i can't live my life trying to control things myself and get pregnant just bcuz it would be "fun" to be preg. w/my Best friend. Ultimately, i have to be at peace and sober and HAPPY being sober if i expect anything to work out for me. If i can't be happy right now, today with where i'm at, then there is no way i'll be happy "when" i have a baby or "when" i get pregnant. It's all in GODS time. He has a master plan for me, and i have to trust His plan. It will happen for me, when its SUPPOSED to.
I'm off to bed.......early night for me. I've been only able to sleep first couple hours and then i'm shaking my leg and waking up every 1-2 minutes tossing and turning!!!!!!!!!! Going insane! Thank heavens it's the weekend though! I'll write more tomorrow or next day.....and update you on what's going on. Have a good night sleep......don't let the pig-bugs bite!
You should see how cute my Maggie-Doodles is right now, she got a haircut and i call her "Penelope" after her haircuts cuz she's so cute and dainty!
Normally she looks like a chubso (cuz her hair grows straight out like white cotton) and everyone in my family calls her "chunky" and i get insulted and say "don't say that to her!!!!, she understands!"
So now she's prancing all around feeling all cute and skinny! So cute, i could eat her up!
Nite-Nite-Bug-bite

 
Old 10-27-2007, 07:52 PM   #11
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Good night Maggie

Tomorrow is another day. Another time to hope.

love
reach

 
Old 10-27-2007, 08:33 PM   #12
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

maggie if it helps you to get clean and happy then get mad at me,cuss me,call me names,whatever i dont care.all i care about is trying to help you get clean and happy.it does no good to get clean and sober if a person is not at all happy cause if you are not happy then a relapse is guaranteed.i know,i have lived this way for over 10yrs and still fightn the fight.on a different note does your dr know how hard you have had it while tapering down on the sub?can you go see him/her in the next week to see if they can help you at all.you will find the answer it just takes time.good luck-spark

 
Old 10-27-2007, 09:11 PM   #13
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Maggie,
Having gone through a terrible opiate withdrawal back in May, I can understand why you felt the need to take something...ANYTHING to keep those horrible feelings at bay. But, someone correct me if I am wrong, doesn't suboxone prevent an addict from using another opiate and getting any sort of "high" from THAT drug? You have to be in moderate withdrawals before you can start a regimen of sub. If you still have the original drug in your system and you take the suboxone too early, it will throw you immediately into withdrawals. So, it seems to me that taking Lorcets in between the doses of sub will actually exacerbate the withdrawals, rather than alleviate the symptoms.
I do not have any personal experience with sub, but I have frequented this forum for nearly a year, reading almost every thread...and that is what I believe to be true with Suboxone. Maybe someone who actually took sub can chime in with a more "expert" opinion.

In any case Maggie, you are NOT a weak person. You will find that you have reservoirs of strength you do not even know exist. That was my personal experience when I went through the darkest time in my detox. Use every tool you can to help pull you through. My biggest life-line was using the NA meetings. Just attending the group meetings and feeding into the STRENGTH provided by fellow addicts sharing is a powerful tool.

Good luck..I will say a prayer for you
Lou

 
Old 10-28-2007, 08:48 AM   #14
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Re: Time for truth from Mags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou1 View Post
Maggie,
But, someone correct me if I am wrong, doesn't suboxone prevent an addict from using another opiate and getting any sort of "high" from THAT drug? You have to be in moderate withdrawals before you can start a regimen of sub. If you still have the original drug in your system and you take the suboxone too early, it will throw you immediately into withdrawals. So, it seems to me that taking Lorcets in between the doses of sub will actually exacerbate the withdrawals, rather than alleviate the symptoms.
Lou
Hey Lou,
That is what i've known to believe also, but maybe it's bcuz i'm on such a low dose of sub. and don't take it daily that i'm able to take the Lorcets and feel better when taking them. They are still giving me a bit of a "high" even though i'm taking the sub., which is weird bcuz i knew of the sub. to block it and keep u from feeling high. But i guess that is happening bcuz i'm on such a low dose now....i guess.
I don't get thrown into withdrawals, i feel better once taking the Lorcets....BUT, they only last a few hours at best and then i do feel icky. Still, not as icky as i would if i wasn't taking anything and just doing the .5mg of sub every couple of days.
Thank you for the support and prayers, i appreciate it and will also do the same for you. Thanks for caring.

SPARKS:
I'm not angry with you, just frustrated with myself and taking it out on you i guess. I knew when i saw that you responded, that it wouldn't be pretty.....but that's the way you help people and i understand that.
NO, i can't see my doc. about the sub. bcuz i'm not getting sub from a doctor. See my Mom and Father also take sub., and i get the sub from my Mom since she doesn't take her full dose prescribed. I know that is bad, and dangerous, but truth be told her Doc. that prescribes it to her agreed to see me, but at the time i wasn't "planning" on taking it long term and didn't want to go see him and get all involved in having to keep an appt w/him every month (can't afford it) and also being legally prescribed it would just make it harder to quit. But now, 10 months later i'm still on it.
My parents want me to get in to see him now that this has gone on so long and to help me get off them. So that may be an option, all though i'm scared of how he'll react when he finds out i'm taking them w/o RX.
I'm thinking of looking into my insurance to see if they cover a stay in rehab. Even if it's just for a week (which is usually what they cover), that may be in the future for me. I think it would be good to be in a completely different mindset than i was when i went 3 yrs ago (kicking and screaming)...and actually be ready to hear everything they will teach and be open to the classes held there and the 24 hour "watch" i'll be on. I'm going to look into it. Although it isn't going to be pretty or fun, i'm thinking that i just need help with this and i don't know if doing it at home alone is the best bet right now. But thanks for your help and i know that your advice is just you caring.....so thank you.
mags

 
Old 10-28-2007, 10:06 AM   #15
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spark-o-cet HB User
Re: Time for truth from Mags

i agree 100% that inpatient rehab is the best possible treatment for an addict if it can arranged.no less than 90days is the best.but if you cant do rehab then by all means go see the dr and tell them everything.i know it is hard for an addict to come clean with the dr but for them to help us it has to be done.its been hard for me to be completely honest with my sub dr this time around but so far i have been 100%honest with him.

i really think you need to get your own script of suboxone that way you can get just enough for the month and if you take more you will run out early and pay the price.also when you go see the dr ask them about a medication called provigil.see if he/she would let you try it when you get off the suboxne.only use it for about a month and no longer.i have read on other sites that people have used this when detox of sub and it has helped alot.

inpatient rehab is the best but if not possible go to sub dr.good luck-spark

 
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