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Old 02-02-2009, 09:33 PM   #1
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Taper or go into in-patient?

If you have been following my posts lately, you know that I am having difficulty getting free of Oxycodone. People have been very supportive and helpful and have taught me that I am Tapering too fast and I need to slow down.

I'm back up to 5 mg/day after failing to get down to 1.25 mg because I'm too aggressive with detoxing. Now, I'm in a new position.

Do I start over again at at 5 mg/day and taper down much slower over a 4 week period or do I check into the hospital for in-patient detox (no suboxone!!)? My wife wants me to go in-patient, but you have been my support group and I value your opinions as well.

I'm tired of walking at night, I'm tired of the shaking, I'm tired of my mind spinning like a top and I want to go to sleep at midnight and not at 6AM in the morning. My life is a mess right now. I'm leaning toward in-patient right now so I can get back on track, but I feel if I taper slower I can do it as well.

How to taper properly? 4 weeks = 28 days to go from 5 mg/day to 0 mg/day I need to drop each day by 0.18 mg/day. Or, do I take larger steps and drop every third day by 10%? Obviously, what I have been doing before hasn't been working and my doctor doesn't have a clue about detox. He wants me to take 5 mg/day split into equal doses and after 10 days just STOP altogether. Or, do I just go cold turkey again?

Opinions? Suggestions? Advice??

 
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:43 PM   #2
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Denon, what will they give you in the hospital (if not suboxone) to help you detox, do you know? Will you have the same WD symptoms or will they give you anything for relief? How long will the IP detox take?

BTW, you may not think so, but IMO you are so lucky to be down to 5 MG per day....I'm still over 40 MG a day. But I'm down from 60, so I feel good about that. Slow and steady....trying to avoid WDs.

Last edited by NotPerky; 02-02-2009 at 09:46 PM. Reason: added a paragraph

 
Old 02-02-2009, 10:47 PM   #3
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

I called the hospital today and was routed to another number so I could make an appointment and they said they were full and to call back tomorrow. So none of my questions were answered and I have no idea about the treatment yet.

The easiest for me was going from 60 to 10, partially because I was completely uneducated about the drug I was taking.

 
Old 02-03-2009, 07:02 AM   #4
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Denon
Hi, I don't want to keep on going over my story and boring everyone about it but please type in Suboxone withdrawls on the top of this page and see if you can find my story. I am not trying to say that I know it all but......I went into a withdrawl clinic on Sept. 3 to Sept. 9/2008 trying to get off of the opiates for my pain, and as I have stated, that my GP doc had me on and he wasn't giving me enough after awhile and my system went into automatic withdrawl for 6 months and we thought it was "restless legs" until I figured out I needed more pain pills for my "chronic neck pain". I did not want to be on these anymore and get more addicted (my body was addicted not my mind, I didn't feel anything from them except they helped with my pain and after awhile I guess my body became immune to them and they stopped working)!!!!
When I was admitted to the Clinic with a help of a special "addictionologist" doctor,they let you withdraw on your own, (in the clinic you need to be off of all of your opiates or pain pills for 24hrs) that is their rules in Michigan or in the clinic which was in a regular hospital, and then after pacing back and forth in the clinic all night with the same symptoms as you are having now, I was screaming and crying and shaking and was restless irritable, had the diarahea, couldn't sleep at all, again which is what you are going through right now, then in the morning they gave me "suboxone" and also gave me "serequel" 3 times a day which made me hallucinate and gave me a terrible headache and feenabarbatol and a few other pills that I have no idea what they were for maybe to calm me down. Well the "suboxone" calmed me down and made me sleepy or quiet almost immediately. Little did I know that I was trading one very bad drug for another "very bad drug".
I don't want to go on but read my posts and others that have been on "suboxone". In my opinion (just absolutely an opinion) if that is what they want to put you on read and read up on this stuff. On another post someone compared suboxone to 40 or 50 times stronger than "morphine". OK I am off of it now after weaning myself down very slowly (with the help of the addictionologist) and it took pretty well a month and I still am having symptoms now. I am just starting to get some sleep and I had to go back on my Ambien that I was taking for 9 years that the sleep clinic gave me. It took a month before my Ambien even helped a bit!!!! I am still after all of this (as I chose) in absolute "Chronic Pain" and am trying to get help from that. You are very lucky that your "pain" has gone away. I am getting the Nerves Burnt in my neck under radio frequency again. I had that done years ago already after "failed" fusion surgery and now have Titanium Pins and plates in for no reason. Apparently it is "Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Epstein Barr, CMV and TMJ.
Sorry Denon.....I am not trying to scare you, I know you are going through a lot and I am proud of the way you have done it and you are down quite a bit in MG from where you started. Talk to your doc please about "suboxone" and read up on it and be prepared. I am here if you have any more questions. I am not trying to come across that I know it all but have just been there. Just to also let you know, I have a VERY strong mind like you and can hide things quite well so the family can be normal but not this time.
Take care Lyn

 
Old 02-03-2009, 07:36 AM   #5
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

I wasn't planning on getting the suboxone if I can help it. I'll know more in a little while when I call to make an appointment for an eval. I'm exhausted after being up all night long.

 
Old 02-03-2009, 12:03 PM   #6
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Evan......Please type in suboxone withdrawl in the search bar and go down quite a bit to read my post. It tells my story....also the post above yours to Denon today....I give him my opinion on "suboxone".

Denon......Sorry I guess I jumped to conclusions that they would put you on "suboxone" in the clinic. I am not sure what else they would use here in Michigan!!!! Good Luck and let us know what is going on. Take care!!!!

Evan.....The only thing I can tell you since I have just been through it is "taper down" with the help of your doctor. I tapered down from 2mg. once a day to approx. a month later down to 1mg per day (in the morning) and then every 2 weeks my doc. saw me and we tapered down from 1 to 1/2 to 1/4 to 1/8 and even little small crumbs!!!!! If I felt terrible at my 2 week appt. then we wouldn't taper or we might go up 1/8. It all depends on how you feel and what your doc. suggests. Sometimes he would do 1 mg. 1 day and 1/2 the next. He would change things around until my system was ok and got used to that dose. I was on "suboxone" approx. 3 months or a bit less.

I don't want to scare you or anybody but....the day after even the crumb when I decided to quit I went into immediate withdrawl. It lasted for quite a while. I felt terrible for over 3 weeks and didn't sleep at all. It has been just over a month and I feel that I am probably over the withdrawl and just starting to get maybe 4 hrs. sleep a night but had to go back on my Ambien for sleep that I had been on every night for 8 years. I need it to function even if it is only 4hrs. a night.

Please don't let this scare you. You can do it, your mind is a powerful thing. You just have to be very strong mentally and physically. Keep busy, walk, exercise, do housework, iron, eat, try to rest, anything that will take your mind off of it.

Please read my story so I am not boring everyone, look also under "chronic pain" and insomnia in the search bar. They might be over a month old but my stories are all there.

I wish you well and if you have any other questions I will check back in.

Take care everyone.

Lyn

 
Old 02-03-2009, 02:59 PM   #7
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Actually, It's all a mute point at the moment because when I called for in-patient, they told me that they didn't have any beds this morning. So, I'm looking forward to another crappy night again to see if tomorrow they have any beds available. I'm also looking into "at home" detox now.

The hardest thing on me today was this morning my wife broke down crying. She hardly ever cries. She said she was tired of seeing me suffer like this and she wants to get it over with. She knows I'm trying. She sees what I go through every night. If I could just go cold turkey I would for her I would. I just want to sleep through the night w/o shaking so hard that my teeth rattle. We'll see what tomorrow brings.

 
Old 02-03-2009, 05:21 PM   #8
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

I hope that you can get a bed soon. You know, some ppl just do better with an inpatient setting. Its hard to taper, Im on such a high dose myself, and Ive been tapering myself a bit just to get my meds to work better, and its really hard.

Im a CP patient, [sorry, I havent read up on your situation, please forgive me]
and dealing with the pain, and trying to taper is almost impossible for me.
If I ever had to go off of all of my meds, Id probably have to do have professional assistance, because of my pain management issues.
Do you have a doc you'll working with? Im wondering if a/your doc could get you a bed sooner. Im sure they could.

I wish you the best, and please post and let us know if you get to go.
And honestly, you can ask them what they do...Do they taper you on the same meds? Do they use sub? You have a right to ask before you go or make a decision.

If I were you, Id take the bed, and you always have the choice to sign yourself out, if you dont like the way its going. It may be AMA, but no one can force you to stay. I would ask about that too...

I dont even like to imply situations that are negative, because Ill bet you that this place is just fine, and you'll be making the best decision that you could possibly make at this time in your life. Ill be watching for your post, and I really hope that this is a new beginning for yourself and your wife.
xoxoxoxo,
IZZY'SMOM

Last edited by IZZY'SMOM; 02-03-2009 at 05:32 PM.

 
Old 02-04-2009, 12:02 AM   #9
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

I found another in-patient place this afternoon and talked to them for about an hour on the phone. They were getting Insurance stuff cleared up and I should know tomorrow.

I'm going to make one more run at tapering down (I no longer need the drug for pain) and if that doesn't work, I'll check in. I'll know in a day or two if it is working or not. I've seen web site video of the facility and it is nice. Only part I don't like is the isolation from my family, but they do it for a reason.

I'll keep you posted.

 
Old 02-04-2009, 05:46 AM   #10
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Denon

Good luck on getting into the clinic. Yesterday I sounded negative about going on "suboxone" and I it was just because I was worried about you and want "you" to know what you are getting yourself into. (I am sure that you can refuse it but going in I want you to have some info (and I know you do). I was trying to do the same thing as you, calling different places to get into and found out that "my insurance" which was very good did not cover "any" place that I wanted to go in to. They would only cover "in patient" in a "hospital" setting, in other words you had to go into a "withdrawl" clinic in a hospital facility. I just wanted to tell you this just in case your insurance is somewhat similar. I am very skeptical when it comes to asking questions at some places that maybe they won't tell you that!!!! I know you said that your insurance was checking into it, but I just wanted to warn you so you could ask the right questions when you call.

How did you sleep last night? I am taking my Ambien and have been falling asleep not too bad but just for a few hours and then I seem to be awake at about 2:30 or 3:00am and cannot fall back asleep. It is unnerving and I feel so bad for you as I can't sleep now but my "withdrawl" period is over with and yours will be soon also. I went to the new neurologist yesterday about my chronic pain and no pain pills anymore and she upped my neurontin and upped my dosage of cymbalta, quite a lot higher but I know we are not allowed to quote millograms on here. She also gave me a medros pack (sp) of steroids to try and knock my headache out of my system!!!! Friday I have the test shots to burn the nerves in my neck and head. Oh yeah, tomorrow they are taking an MRI of my brain.
This is not fun is it?
Keep us posted and good luck if you can get into a place.
I feel bad that your wife is so upset and all she wants is "your lives back together" the same as my husband and I. When I was going through the worst part of my withdrawl I saw my husband in tears more than once. They don't know what to do for us and it is sometimes just as hard on them but at least we have them for support which is wonderful. She will be there for you and that is why you are going to get through this. You must be almost there Denon!!!!!
Take care Lyn

 
Old 02-04-2009, 07:11 AM   #11
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Hi everyone.
I chose to come on the board this morning because I myself am hurting emotionally and physically from dropping down on my methadone last week.

I went on methadone to help me stop the withdrawals from snorting heroin many years ago. I'm in a treatment plan.
I thought that by sniffing a little heroin wouldn't get me addicted as it would by shooting it which I told myself i"d never do. Little did I know the horrendous addiction this drug causes.

I entered through my local hospital ER with bad vital signs, because you must be warned that just detoxing on your own for some people can be dangerous, depending on your health conditions if any.

They admitted me and made me comfortable by giving me non addictive sleeping medication so I could at least get a good nights sleep which I hadn't had in a while when I tried to detox on my own at home.

I suffered horribly and felt like i was going to die. I couldn't even get out of bed to go to the bathroom I felt so weak and couldnt even make myself a cup of coffee to try to get out of bed. there was no one living with me at the time to help me. That's when I knew I needed to get proffesional help.
no one on this earth would understand how painful and uncomfortable detoxing or going cold turkey on your own is unless you've experienced it yourself.

they let me stay there for one week.
upon discharge plan, they sent a social worker to speak to me about my future plans and I asked to be sent to a methadone clinic, which I wished someone had told me i"d only be trading one physically addicting drug for another.
only this one would be legal and dispensed by nurses. some people chose not to go with the plan and work against it which is only their loss, but for me personally, I wanted to get my life back together and be the woman I used to be before I did drugs.
I am warning others to really think about their options as far as what your plans will be when you get discharged from the hospital.
You can get through the detox in a hospital setting more comfortably than your own home by assisting you with different medications and rest.


you're lucky you no longer need the pain medication. I wish I didn't need any, because I have chronic pain all the time. I feel it worst when my 20 mgs. of methadone starts wearing off by late afternoon.
I want with all my heart to get off this methadone, but every time i drop down five mgs. which I do about every 4 months apart, not every week or every few days, because that would simply be setting myself up for horrible withdrawal.
one has to be determined and ready to really understand what your body is going through when you're detoxing.

the doctor understands very well that your body is going to become depenedent on a drug if you're prescribed pain medications, but most don't warn their patients.
my own personal feelings are, I think doctors who prescribe these medicaitons should warn their patients about the potential possibility of what's going to take place and guide them for help when they have to come off the med's rather than let the patient feel guilty and full of remourse that they've become addicted to something they never intended.

do you know how many people I've come across at my methadone clinic who became addicted to prescribed pain medicaitons???? It's an epidemic in this country and no one is doing anything about it!

Its' not the patients fault, like so many think it is. the body physically becomes dependent on them. our MINDS might not want it, but the body screams out in pain for it when it's not given it.

so I wish you the best Denon with your treatment plan and I think you're a very wise man to seek help from experts who know how to treat this epidemic and as far as your wife goes, she sounds like a wonderful mate and cares enough for the very best for you. she sees what you're going through and doesn't like to see you suffer.
before you know it, this will all be behind you and I promise you this, you will NEVER forget it.

I know I never will.

best wishes and a speedy recovery. You're going to get through this. I know you will.


sincerely,

Linda

 
Old 02-04-2009, 07:22 AM   #12
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Lintek.....Fantastic post, I agree with you 100%. I just went through withdrawl from "Suboxone" after being on opiates and am still in "chronic pain". Nobody can know what "chronic pain" is like if you don't have it, and yes I agree 100% also that if you haven't gone through "withdrawl" nobody can ever understand how it feels....it is hell and nobody deserves it. There are doctors out there that prescribe pills like Candy. I have besides Fibro, Chronic Myofascial pain. etc.etc. TMJ (I think). I went to a specialist to have it confirmed and he said that I didn't have it but wrote me out a prescription for "Dilaudid". The specialist said "to take it for the rest of my life and so what if I got addicted, I needed it for the pain" dahhhhh!!!! I didn't know what it was and when I went to pick up the prescription they treated me like a criminal with calling my doc to make sure that he did write it out and showing ID and everyone was staring at me in the drug store. I went home and looked it up on line and it was "morphine" and some say "worse than morphine". I took one and got scared and put it in my cupboard. I went to my family doc. afterwards and he said that I definitely did have TMJ???? It is sooo confusing, who do you listen to!!!

Take care Linda and also I wish Denon luck.
Keep us posted Denon, we are thinking about you.

Lyn

 
Old 02-04-2009, 02:28 PM   #13
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Thanks for your posts. I'm going nuts!! My dependency has consumed my life and all of my thoughts like a cancer. I'm void of emotion. I'm having insurance problems for the in-patient and 80% of the other doctors I've called don't take my insurance. Arg!!!! I talked for about 1 hour to the in-patient facility last night and they answered all of my questions. They use Subutex (short-term) and not Suboxone. The only thing I dislike about the in-patient is being totally cut off from my family for 5 days, but I understand the need for it. It is a nice facility, but we're still waiting on insurance.

I made up my mind last night as I was walking and aching and so tired I could hardly move and banging my head against the wall, to do the in-patient. I actually went to bed early last night - 4:30 AM. If I could just sleep, I think I could get through this. But, I don't want to get hooked on Ambien again, so I'm resisting taking it at night.

I've thought about just showing up at the Hospital Emergency room and saying, "I'm here - now take care of me!"

 
Old 02-04-2009, 02:56 PM   #14
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Denon, I am so sorry you are going through such a hard time. Just know that you are in everyone's thoughts and prayers.

 
Old 02-04-2009, 03:09 PM   #15
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Re: Taper or go into in-patient?

Denon, I admire your bravery!!!! I know what it feels like!!!! When I decided to go into the "in patient" clinic at the hospital the family doctor who took over my case after my doctor was in a car accident and died, changed my break through meds to eight hour tylenol in the place of vicoden , that put me into the withdrawls and I hit rock bottom (another story)
She was the one that had to get me put into the hospital and she wouldn't answer my calls and I left 3 messages with the girls at the front desk and she completely ignored me.
She knew what she had done to me and was completely ignoring me while I called and called and cried and was so upset. I spent the long Labour day weekend in the worst withdrawls, in the fetal position, shaking uncontrollably, pacing back and forth and looking at my husband saying "I can't do this, I can't do this"!!! He didn't know what to do and either did I. I managed somehow to get through the "long weekend" by taking some vicoden or oxycodone that I had still and didn't want to take it but I had to because my system was a mess and first thing Tuesday morning (this is when I stopped taking my pills that morning, to me that was it!!!!! I asked my husband to take me right into the Emergency Room of the hospital and they checked me out, my blood pressure was sky high and my heart rate was elevated so bad. They did some tests and said that they couldn't find anything wrong with me!!!!! I had kept all of the nasty pills that the doctors had put me on (for years) and lots I didn't take but I had bottles of pills in a big bag. I grabbed the doctor by the sleeve and pulled him over to me nicely and begged and begged him to put me in and told him point blank (and I wasn't serious but desperate). Look at all of these pills and I dumped them on the bed I was laying on and I said "if you don't put me into the clinic, I am going to take the whole bag of these"!!!! (As I said, I wasn't serious just desperate to be heard)!!!!! They talked about it and said the only way to get me in there was to see an "addictionologist" that was affiliated with the hospital which to me was bull but I had to conform to their rules. My husband took me over there and I waited and waited and by the time he came in to see me I was in complete and full withdrawl because I hadn't taken any of my pain killers that day. He had no choice and so the story goes!!!!
I still had lots of pills but I had decided to stop them on the weekend when I went into withdrawl and my mind was made up.
I was in there from Sept. 3 to Sept. 9 and had 1 visit with my husband and son and oh yes a meeting the day after I was in there and that was it so I understand how you feel about being away from your family. I was the only one in the whole ward which was in a major construction zone. They were doing the whole ward over again. Early in the morning they were hammering and sawing and putting in a new kitchen, new shower and the main room that we all sat in was also in construction. It was a nightmare until people started coming and I by the time I left the ward was full. They keep you soooo busy with meetings and homework and games and meals that the time went by fast but I couldn't wait to go home. By talking to everyone else and hearing their situations, you don't feel so alone and I made some very good friends.
Sorry I am rambling. If you have any other questions Denon just post to me.

Take care of yourself and good luck to you. I feel so bad for the way you feel right now. Hot baths and heating pads on my neck helped a bit and I tried to keep my mind busy by watching TV and trying to sleep. I know, it doesn't work, you are correct, your whole life and mind is consumed by it and I think that all of us are very strong people and it is all of a sudden very difficult to try and train your brain to not think about it. Believe me, this will pass and you will start to feel better and you will see the light at the end of the tunnel. I am through my withdrawl, I just now have to find a way to get rid of my pain.

Bye again Lyn

 
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