livi16
05-29-2003, 01:06 PM
Hello all!
After 10+ years on Synthroid for treatment of hypothyroidism, the last 5 while still experiencing numerous hypo symptoms, I finally convinced my GP to start me on Armour Thyroid. At the time, I was on 25 mcg Levoxyl (labs were - .81 Free T4 and .643 TSH,) and I was experiencing some hyper symptoms which included angina like chest pain. After switching to Armour (30 mg) I felt a change for the better in the first week, and for the next 6 weeks I felt absolutely great (labs - 1.19 Free T4 and .457 TSH.) Shortly after the first six weeks, I started experiencing the chest pain again and sleep disturbance, swelling hands and weight gain. My GP prescribed a calcium channel blocker for my heart (I have mitral valve prolapse). I also began cutting my pills in half and taking them several hours apart. I've been doing this for 5 - 6 weeks and I still have angina pain nearly every day. My questions are this: Is my dosage too high? and could the calcium channel blocker be interfering with my thyroid meds? I do not smoke, drink no caffeine and attend water aerobics once or twice a week, I'll be going in for more blood work in a couple of weeks, and I'm curious to see what my levels are. Any suggestions as to what to try next? I am really wanting to make the Armour work, it's the only thing that has even come close to making me feel like my old self.
After 10+ years on Synthroid for treatment of hypothyroidism, the last 5 while still experiencing numerous hypo symptoms, I finally convinced my GP to start me on Armour Thyroid. At the time, I was on 25 mcg Levoxyl (labs were - .81 Free T4 and .643 TSH,) and I was experiencing some hyper symptoms which included angina like chest pain. After switching to Armour (30 mg) I felt a change for the better in the first week, and for the next 6 weeks I felt absolutely great (labs - 1.19 Free T4 and .457 TSH.) Shortly after the first six weeks, I started experiencing the chest pain again and sleep disturbance, swelling hands and weight gain. My GP prescribed a calcium channel blocker for my heart (I have mitral valve prolapse). I also began cutting my pills in half and taking them several hours apart. I've been doing this for 5 - 6 weeks and I still have angina pain nearly every day. My questions are this: Is my dosage too high? and could the calcium channel blocker be interfering with my thyroid meds? I do not smoke, drink no caffeine and attend water aerobics once or twice a week, I'll be going in for more blood work in a couple of weeks, and I'm curious to see what my levels are. Any suggestions as to what to try next? I am really wanting to make the Armour work, it's the only thing that has even come close to making me feel like my old self.
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dea4
05-29-2003, 05:37 PM
Calcium can affect thyroid meds if taken too close, you need to space the two at least 4 hours apart, also if you have mitral valve prolapse, are you taking magnesium? Magnesium Citrate is suppose to be really good for heart palpitations and is usually recommended for people with Mitral valve prolapse, its also good to take when you have thyroid problems. You should be consuming at least as much magnesium as calcium, magnesium is very important.
Hope this helps you, good luck :)
Hope this helps you, good luck :)
livi16
05-30-2003, 09:40 AM
Thanks Dea for your input. Yes, I am taking a calcium magnesium zinc supplement 4 hours apart from taking the thyroid. Anybody else have any thoughts?
stanno
06-29-2003, 12:46 AM
I know it's hard to believe, as many symptoms as we
all have with our thyroid, but it is possible your
angina is unrelated and a different problem altogether.
If this is so, the Armour may STILL be the best thing for you, and approach the angina from a separate angle.
I hope you find the right combination!!
------------------
Clowns to the left of us,
Jokers to the right.....
all have with our thyroid, but it is possible your
angina is unrelated and a different problem altogether.
If this is so, the Armour may STILL be the best thing for you, and approach the angina from a separate angle.
I hope you find the right combination!!
------------------
Clowns to the left of us,
Jokers to the right.....
daldre1269
06-29-2003, 10:19 AM
Hi... 30mg of armour is an extremely small dose.. pretty much placebo effect! Problem with this small dose is exactly what you explaine... Yes.. you feel great for the first few weeks and then the symptoms return... this is because the dose is so SMALL that it is actually suppressing the function of your thyroid... yet it is not providing enough for you to function normally. It sounds like you need an increase. This happend to me also and I improved when my dose was increased to an appropriate level. It sounds like you may have heart issues.. but under normal circumstances it is not recommended to start a patient on less than 90 mg armour because of this suppression at the low dose. It sounds like this is what has happend to you... don't give up on the armour so fast!!
livi16
06-30-2003, 04:11 PM
Greetings;
Thanks for your input. I am definitely going to try to stay with the Armour in spite of the problems I am experiencing. I was on Synthroid for 8 years and Levoxyl for 1 year. Neither worked and it took 2 years to convince my GP to let me try Armour. It worked wonderfully for six weeks, then the heart problems began. I've always had MVP and am really frustrated that my GP gave me no guidance as to switching thyroid medications. I have learned that it is best to halve your dosage to take twice daily, so it won't stress your heart as badly. Now I'm on a calcium channel blocker and am only taking half of my thyroid medication, due to the severe chest pains I am experiencing. I have an appointment in a week with a cardiologist. I really do feel that being on Synthroid for so many years with my dosage steadily being increased as I continued to complain of worsening hypo symptoms did some damage to my already weakened heart. But, what's done is done, time to move on. I really do feel that this will eventually be straightened out, but it sure does feel good to vent every now and then! ;)
Thanks for your input. I am definitely going to try to stay with the Armour in spite of the problems I am experiencing. I was on Synthroid for 8 years and Levoxyl for 1 year. Neither worked and it took 2 years to convince my GP to let me try Armour. It worked wonderfully for six weeks, then the heart problems began. I've always had MVP and am really frustrated that my GP gave me no guidance as to switching thyroid medications. I have learned that it is best to halve your dosage to take twice daily, so it won't stress your heart as badly. Now I'm on a calcium channel blocker and am only taking half of my thyroid medication, due to the severe chest pains I am experiencing. I have an appointment in a week with a cardiologist. I really do feel that being on Synthroid for so many years with my dosage steadily being increased as I continued to complain of worsening hypo symptoms did some damage to my already weakened heart. But, what's done is done, time to move on. I really do feel that this will eventually be straightened out, but it sure does feel good to vent every now and then! ;)
Mollymalone
06-30-2003, 11:16 PM
Well, I'm going to vent on the other side of the coin, so to speak. I've been on 240 mg of Armour for 30 years because it was found 30 years ago that I have no thyroid activity. I always thought I felt good. Because of reasons I don't need to go into here, I've been switched to Levoxyl. I've been on .150mg for almost 5 weeks. When six weeks are up I go in to have labs done, and very likely a decrease in dosage. Here's what I think about it now...
I feel more "stable" than I've felt for years. One of my biggest complaints over the past 10 years has been about an increase in spells of incredible heart pounding. Not just heart pounding, but also palpitations, and just plain irregular beating, like really fast and hard fluttering. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and my heart would be pounding so hard it seemed like the whole room was shaking. I complained about it so bitterly once that the doctor had me go to a heart specialist who had me wear a heart monitor for 24 hours. When the 24 hours were up the heart specialist said, "Yeah, I can see what you're talking about, but I have no idea what it is." Great....
I'm reading lots of posts here about how much people like Armour, and about how they're begging their doctors to change them to Armour because it's more natural. I think it gives a false sense of well-being.
This is just my opinion, and what I've experienced. I feel so much better on the Levoxyl. More stable. So much more calm. The heart pounding and irregular beating is just gone!
Come to think of it, I was having what I thought were hot flashes, like my thermostat was broken. That's gone, too.
[This message has been edited by Mollymalone (edited 06-30-2003).]
I feel more "stable" than I've felt for years. One of my biggest complaints over the past 10 years has been about an increase in spells of incredible heart pounding. Not just heart pounding, but also palpitations, and just plain irregular beating, like really fast and hard fluttering. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and my heart would be pounding so hard it seemed like the whole room was shaking. I complained about it so bitterly once that the doctor had me go to a heart specialist who had me wear a heart monitor for 24 hours. When the 24 hours were up the heart specialist said, "Yeah, I can see what you're talking about, but I have no idea what it is." Great....
I'm reading lots of posts here about how much people like Armour, and about how they're begging their doctors to change them to Armour because it's more natural. I think it gives a false sense of well-being.
This is just my opinion, and what I've experienced. I feel so much better on the Levoxyl. More stable. So much more calm. The heart pounding and irregular beating is just gone!
Come to think of it, I was having what I thought were hot flashes, like my thermostat was broken. That's gone, too.
[This message has been edited by Mollymalone (edited 06-30-2003).]
AngelaA
07-01-2003, 12:27 AM
If you are feeling much more stable on Levoxyl then that is great; definitely stay on it! But don't dis Armour too much. There's no one thyroid medicine that works for all people. If it wasn't for Armour I wouldn't be able to take thyroid meds. Levoxyl is color coded by dosage. For people with allergies to dyes, Levoxyl can cause them to have reactions. That's why dr didn't dare put me on it. Besides dye allergy also have long history to having negative reactions to synthetic medications in general.
daldre1269
07-01-2003, 08:49 AM
In a very small percentage of cases... Yes, Yes, Yes, t4 only WILL work for a VERY small amount of people. The statistics say.....read the New England Journal of Med... People fare much better on t4/t3 combo meds.... the majority.... ofcourse there is a minority that may do very well on t4 alone.... but in this case here there has been problems for 10 years on t4. It's only been 6 weeks on t4 so it really may be too soon to even say if the effects will last.
Lithiate
07-02-2003, 01:39 AM
I was just going to say what daldre said... I'm on 25 mcg of Levothroid (essentially the same thing as Levoxyl), and it's the smallest possible dose one could get without cutting the teeny little pills in half. I want to up my dose because of the same phenomenon you're describing: Essentially, you feel awesome, but slowly the symptoms start creeping back in. Right now I'm stuck in a mood rut and it's only just occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, it's time to put my foot down about upping my dose. I want to try Armour, but I'll have to switch to yet another doctor in order to get it, because neither of the docs I'm seeing right now think I should take it (and one is a Top Doc, at that! And he's the one who thinks that 25 mcg is enough, and that my real problem is hypercalcemia and that I'm doomed to die a horrible death from kidney failure if I don't commit to his expensive treatment plan! Oooh! Don't get me started on how mad this makes me! Particularly since my "second opinion" doctor can't find a damn thing wrong with my kidneys and his tests say I'm nowhere near hypercalcemic! Arrrgh! But I digress...).
Anyway, I think you should definitely insist on upping your dose. If it doesn't make you feel better, and you've gone as high as is safe to do in your case, THEN consider an alternate medication. So many people have such great results on Armour, and it's so difficult to get it prescribed... You have a great oppertunity to feel better, but someone needs to talk to your doc about dosing!
Anyway, I think you should definitely insist on upping your dose. If it doesn't make you feel better, and you've gone as high as is safe to do in your case, THEN consider an alternate medication. So many people have such great results on Armour, and it's so difficult to get it prescribed... You have a great oppertunity to feel better, but someone needs to talk to your doc about dosing!
AngelaA
07-02-2003, 07:11 PM
Do you have a friendly pharmacist? Why not try asking next time if he/she knows of any doctors that prescribes Armour. Tell him what you want to know. He might just tell you. Find out from friends/co-workers if they take Armour. There's got to be someone in your town that will write a script for it.
My doc, one of the most respected in town, several degrees, etc, told me she used to think Armour was a joke. Then she read an article about it and she decided to try it out on her more difficult patients. She admitted she couldn't believe it, patients were feeling better adjusted after 3 months on Armour. Her own trial of it convinced her Armour was best for many people. You have to ask her specifically if you want Levoxyl because she no longer routinely prescribes it. Her opinion is since it is actual desicated pig thyroid it already the hormones in it have already been "processed" by the pig and it is easier for person to then utilize.
My doc, one of the most respected in town, several degrees, etc, told me she used to think Armour was a joke. Then she read an article about it and she decided to try it out on her more difficult patients. She admitted she couldn't believe it, patients were feeling better adjusted after 3 months on Armour. Her own trial of it convinced her Armour was best for many people. You have to ask her specifically if you want Levoxyl because she no longer routinely prescribes it. Her opinion is since it is actual desicated pig thyroid it already the hormones in it have already been "processed" by the pig and it is easier for person to then utilize.
Lithiate
07-02-2003, 07:17 PM
Well, I did call one of the four people listed on the Armour website in my area who prescribe it and whaddya know? There was a cancelation tomorrow and they gave me the appointment! Otherwise, I would have had to wait until August to me seen. Looks like luck was on my side today! The only draw back is that it's going to be $275 out of pocket for the visit, since my insurance won't cover out-of-network providers. Blah.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to tomorrow! :)
Anyway, I'm looking forward to tomorrow! :)
Mollymalone
07-06-2003, 11:06 PM
AngelaA, I sure didn't mean to say that Armour wasn't good for anyone! I'm sorry!! You're right that we're all different. All I meant was to give my own experience. I don't know what the answers are, and to tell the truth I find it all really confusing. I read things here and there about what TSH level one should be at, and lots of people say TSH isn't a good judge. And that's just the TSH issue. There's just so much conflicting information. Right now I'm going to stick to what this new doctor is trying, because I really have had a big change in the way I feel. Not having that horrible heart pounding and fluttering going on is a such big relief. I have another appointment and labs done on July 16. It'll be interesting to see if my TSH has come into the normal range now.
Another thing, Angela, is that I guess I'm just too ready to blame the 30 years on Armour for the problems I'm faced with now. I would only say to make sure your doctor keeps on top of other things, including possible osteoporosis and heart problems. Those two things are what I have to deal with now because of the many years on Armour.
[This message has been edited by Mollymalone (edited 07-06-2003).]
Another thing, Angela, is that I guess I'm just too ready to blame the 30 years on Armour for the problems I'm faced with now. I would only say to make sure your doctor keeps on top of other things, including possible osteoporosis and heart problems. Those two things are what I have to deal with now because of the many years on Armour.
[This message has been edited by Mollymalone (edited 07-06-2003).]
AngelaA
07-07-2003, 12:33 AM
I agree the TSH issue is very confusing. Doctors still seem to go by it, while everyone else said it doesn't mean anything. Nobody agrees on the range for hypo. So much conflicting information. Not everyone does well on the same medications. So its good there is more than one kind of thyroid hormone replacement. However I don't see how you can say without a doubt that Armour caused you heart problems or osteoporosis. Both diseases are quite common in America. To a large extent those things are heredity and heart problems can be caused by diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol, to name a few things. There's plently of people who never took Armour that have those same health problems. I really don't see the connection. Heart problems can also be caused by going for years with no treatment for hypothyroid. Which is something I keep telling my friend whose doctor told her 5 years ago to get a thyroid panel done. She is too stupid to do it because she doesn't want to be labeled with a disease. I went 15 years hypo before I could find a doctor that would believe me. I worry now how much that may have hurt me.
Tree Frog
07-07-2003, 02:32 PM
Hi Mollymalone,
240 mg of Armour is a VERY high dose. With your symptoms and complaints, I cannot see why the doc did not suggest to try cutting back on your dose. Just a small dose adjustment could have made the needed difference. Your problem very well may not have been Armour, but that the dose amount was very likely too high for you.
Hi AngelaA:
TSH can tell a great deal. But it is useless if a doc only goes by lab values and ignores symptoms. TSH alone does not always tell sufficient information.
If a person's TSH level is within the lab ranges, but they still have common thyroid imbalance symptoms, then a doc should check the Free T4 and Free T3 levels to see more specifically what may be going on. But none of these tests prove what amount of thyroid hormone any individual actually needs to be well. There is no test for proof of any individual's true hormone need.
A doc should be willing to try different T4 or T3 combinations and different dose levels, because hormone needs are always unique to individuals. That is why there is no true "standard" that fits everyone, or even most people!
Info:
Splitting a dose is not to avoid heart problems. It is because the T3 in Armour is used up in a few hours, so splitting the dose disperses the hormone to be used through out the rest of the day. I take my second dose around 1PM, then I can get through the day.
A patient needs to be patient, as hormones, thyroid hormone included, ONLY allow healing. Hormones are not a drug that has an effect in 20 minutes. T3, the useable component of thyroid, is used by the body more quickly. But it still does not make one instantly well. It is very common to get one a thyroid dose, feel better for a period of time, then revert back to old symptoms. It means one needs more thyroid. This is the time to try a higher dose.
The main problem is when thyroid hormones are tried to be fit into a standard, or when either doctor. or patient, or both do not understand thyroid, or have unrealistic expectations.
Any kind of hormone imbalance, including thyroid hormone imbalance, is one area that docs MUST listen to patients, and go by trial and error.
AND, we patients must understand thyroid so they can speak up. It is very confusing and discouraging to have thyroid problems if we don't educate ourselves.
The heart issues can happen with either too much OR too little thyroid, so that should never be over-looked by a doctor.
It can take several weeks or even months to find out what dose one needs in order to become healthy. My doc and I have been adjusting my thyroid med for years. It is not something to just be fixed and forget about.
And, like it was said, other things have an effect on the heart. But if nothing else is found to be wrong with the heart, then it is safe to assume one needs to try different thyroid doses for weeks at each dose to find out if that helps.
Once the hypothyroid imbalance is corrected, the body can heal completely. It is not the same with long term hyperthyroidism, where the heart muscle can be actually damaged from working too hard, too long.
[This message has been edited by Tree Frog (edited 07-07-2003).]
240 mg of Armour is a VERY high dose. With your symptoms and complaints, I cannot see why the doc did not suggest to try cutting back on your dose. Just a small dose adjustment could have made the needed difference. Your problem very well may not have been Armour, but that the dose amount was very likely too high for you.
Hi AngelaA:
TSH can tell a great deal. But it is useless if a doc only goes by lab values and ignores symptoms. TSH alone does not always tell sufficient information.
If a person's TSH level is within the lab ranges, but they still have common thyroid imbalance symptoms, then a doc should check the Free T4 and Free T3 levels to see more specifically what may be going on. But none of these tests prove what amount of thyroid hormone any individual actually needs to be well. There is no test for proof of any individual's true hormone need.
A doc should be willing to try different T4 or T3 combinations and different dose levels, because hormone needs are always unique to individuals. That is why there is no true "standard" that fits everyone, or even most people!
Info:
Splitting a dose is not to avoid heart problems. It is because the T3 in Armour is used up in a few hours, so splitting the dose disperses the hormone to be used through out the rest of the day. I take my second dose around 1PM, then I can get through the day.
A patient needs to be patient, as hormones, thyroid hormone included, ONLY allow healing. Hormones are not a drug that has an effect in 20 minutes. T3, the useable component of thyroid, is used by the body more quickly. But it still does not make one instantly well. It is very common to get one a thyroid dose, feel better for a period of time, then revert back to old symptoms. It means one needs more thyroid. This is the time to try a higher dose.
The main problem is when thyroid hormones are tried to be fit into a standard, or when either doctor. or patient, or both do not understand thyroid, or have unrealistic expectations.
Any kind of hormone imbalance, including thyroid hormone imbalance, is one area that docs MUST listen to patients, and go by trial and error.
AND, we patients must understand thyroid so they can speak up. It is very confusing and discouraging to have thyroid problems if we don't educate ourselves.
The heart issues can happen with either too much OR too little thyroid, so that should never be over-looked by a doctor.
It can take several weeks or even months to find out what dose one needs in order to become healthy. My doc and I have been adjusting my thyroid med for years. It is not something to just be fixed and forget about.
And, like it was said, other things have an effect on the heart. But if nothing else is found to be wrong with the heart, then it is safe to assume one needs to try different thyroid doses for weeks at each dose to find out if that helps.
Once the hypothyroid imbalance is corrected, the body can heal completely. It is not the same with long term hyperthyroidism, where the heart muscle can be actually damaged from working too hard, too long.
[This message has been edited by Tree Frog (edited 07-07-2003).]