CherylLynn24
05-18-2003, 03:12 AM
Hey All,
I took my Son to the ER on friday night. He came down with a virus a few days before, and well, he's got asthma, and he was wheezing. The doctor examined him, gave him antibiotics and prednisone. Now, we've seen this doctor in the ER, a few times in the past. (when we had taken him to the ER for head pain and ear trouble, not knowing that it was a tmj disorder that he was suffering from) Anyway, he recognized us and asked if we ever did figure out what was causing those particular problems. I told him what his diagnosis was, and (in front of my Son, like he wasn't even there) shook his head and said, "that's terrible, most people suffer their whole lives from that, and to think he's only a child." my Son's eyes got huge, looking at me. When we got to the car, he was nearly in tears. Now, I reassure him on a daily basis that he will be painfree again, and that Mom will eventually get him the "right" help, and this doctor nearly destroyed that. How can a doctor be so ignorant in front of a child? Thanks for listening, it just ticked me off, and I needed to get it out.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
I took my Son to the ER on friday night. He came down with a virus a few days before, and well, he's got asthma, and he was wheezing. The doctor examined him, gave him antibiotics and prednisone. Now, we've seen this doctor in the ER, a few times in the past. (when we had taken him to the ER for head pain and ear trouble, not knowing that it was a tmj disorder that he was suffering from) Anyway, he recognized us and asked if we ever did figure out what was causing those particular problems. I told him what his diagnosis was, and (in front of my Son, like he wasn't even there) shook his head and said, "that's terrible, most people suffer their whole lives from that, and to think he's only a child." my Son's eyes got huge, looking at me. When we got to the car, he was nearly in tears. Now, I reassure him on a daily basis that he will be painfree again, and that Mom will eventually get him the "right" help, and this doctor nearly destroyed that. How can a doctor be so ignorant in front of a child? Thanks for listening, it just ticked me off, and I needed to get it out.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
Sponsor
HRevero
05-18-2003, 01:32 PM
Cheryl,
Micaiah says that you should write a letter to the hospital or to that doctor's surperior. Stating your case and how this one doctor ALMOST destroyed the self esteem in a 14 year old boy. And ask them why if he knew soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about it to know that people suffer their whole lives, why could he not diagnose it or even point you in the right direction?????
That makes me so mad that he did that to you guys. You have to wonder what they actually got their phd in- idiotocy?
Heather
Micaiah says that you should write a letter to the hospital or to that doctor's surperior. Stating your case and how this one doctor ALMOST destroyed the self esteem in a 14 year old boy. And ask them why if he knew soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about it to know that people suffer their whole lives, why could he not diagnose it or even point you in the right direction?????
That makes me so mad that he did that to you guys. You have to wonder what they actually got their phd in- idiotocy?
Heather
DianeTMJ
05-18-2003, 01:36 PM
I am so sorry that stupid Dr. did that to your son. Okay, for each negative statement or comment, as I understand it takes 100 positives to negate the negative. I would also get the name of the Dr and file a formal complaint with the hospital as well as the medical board. This Dr needs to go back "bed side manners 101".
Give your son a big hug and keep letting him know, this will not be a lifetime of hell. Geez
Have a nice day
Diane
Give your son a big hug and keep letting him know, this will not be a lifetime of hell. Geez
Have a nice day
Diane
MichaelV
05-18-2003, 01:47 PM
It was a little silly of him to say that.
But I think talk of a formal complaint is a a bit much too. It was a passing - and not very helpful - remark.
The man meant well and was trying to sympathise. He was clumsy but I find the virulent anti doctor tone in these pages a bit galling sometimes.
Everyone has huge sympathy for this young man but at the end of the day it is doctors we turn to for help and it will be a doctor, hopefully, who will help him in the end. He may well have to endure this problem for a while to come and it might actually help him to develop a sense of "I'll show them".
We have all had experiences with arrogant doctors, doctors who get it wrong etc. But they do not know everything and whilst so many people recount their "unsatisfactory" experiences on this board, few actually come on to praise those who have helped. Indeed, the readership is rather self selecting in that most on here are STILL suffering and by default have not had much success with doctors. But we expect so much of them still? Justa curious dichotomy that interests me.
But I think talk of a formal complaint is a a bit much too. It was a passing - and not very helpful - remark.
The man meant well and was trying to sympathise. He was clumsy but I find the virulent anti doctor tone in these pages a bit galling sometimes.
Everyone has huge sympathy for this young man but at the end of the day it is doctors we turn to for help and it will be a doctor, hopefully, who will help him in the end. He may well have to endure this problem for a while to come and it might actually help him to develop a sense of "I'll show them".
We have all had experiences with arrogant doctors, doctors who get it wrong etc. But they do not know everything and whilst so many people recount their "unsatisfactory" experiences on this board, few actually come on to praise those who have helped. Indeed, the readership is rather self selecting in that most on here are STILL suffering and by default have not had much success with doctors. But we expect so much of them still? Justa curious dichotomy that interests me.
Al4
05-18-2003, 02:20 PM
How can such stupid doctors be trusted with other patient lives? I am not surprised anymore at how many bad, egotistical and heartless doctors are out there, and who easily get away with injuring patients. I would have scolded him in front of everybody. Whether he knows much about TMJ or not is beside the point. He should not say those insensitive things in front of a kid who is suffering!
[This message has been edited by Al4 (edited 05-18-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Al4 (edited 05-18-2003).]
uscoastiewife
05-18-2003, 03:26 PM
I had the same problem.With more knowledge I now don't feel so bad.My doc was worse!He said to me (before someone else diagnosed me with TMJ)"No one will ever find out what's wrong with you.My wife has lived with pain for years,and they don't know what it is."He went on to say,"No other Doctor will tell you this,but straight out,I would stop trying and waisting time and your money."That is what he told me!!!!!Imagine how I felt leaving there.That was when I had no idea what was going on with me.I think he was sick of seeing me.I went about 5 times in 3 weeks.He said that stuff to me on the last appointment,because I never went back!
Your son should know that a lot of Docs out there are not knowledgable about TMJ yet.I've found that out!You just have to find the right one.Turns out the Doc I saw was wrong!They DID find out what's wrong,and we are working on it.I am improving in some areas.Sometimes Doctors are wrong.My uncle received a faulty Polio vaccine which gave him Polio.He was suppose to live until age 8.He lived until 48!You see 5 different Doctors,you might get 5 totally different opinions.You can tell if you are comfortable with a Doc.Your son will not be in pain forever.I hope he knows this.I have heard many success stories!
[This message has been edited by uscoastiewife (edited 05-18-2003).]
Your son should know that a lot of Docs out there are not knowledgable about TMJ yet.I've found that out!You just have to find the right one.Turns out the Doc I saw was wrong!They DID find out what's wrong,and we are working on it.I am improving in some areas.Sometimes Doctors are wrong.My uncle received a faulty Polio vaccine which gave him Polio.He was suppose to live until age 8.He lived until 48!You see 5 different Doctors,you might get 5 totally different opinions.You can tell if you are comfortable with a Doc.Your son will not be in pain forever.I hope he knows this.I have heard many success stories!
[This message has been edited by uscoastiewife (edited 05-18-2003).]
shell389
05-18-2003, 04:33 PM
Hi Cheryl, Tell Mike that the dentist I see is a specialist in TMJD and is away every month at conferences and seminars learning everything he can about this disorder. Now, this Dr. with all the knowledge of it has told me that it does get better and in many instances it goes away for the person with the right treatment. The Dr. in the ER probably only knows what he has heard or read about the matter and has no further knowledge than that. And the fact that is works in the ER probably means he only sees patient's for it that are in extreme pain at the time. He would never see a success case for treatment in the ER. Maybe that will make Mike feel some better. It was probably just the Dr's total lack of knowledge on the subject. And he probably felt he was being sympathetic and never even thought about what saying that would do to a kid.
Hope Mike is feeling better from his virus. Emily was sick too and I had her at the Dr's on Friday. Her's was just a sinus infection this time though. I was glad as she had her big spring concert on Friday night and was able to go and be in it. She was so cute up there singing.
How are you doing? Hanging in there? I am picking up my splint tomorrow morning and cannot wait. This is going to help me, I just know it!!! Take care and talk to you soon, Michelle
Hope Mike is feeling better from his virus. Emily was sick too and I had her at the Dr's on Friday. Her's was just a sinus infection this time though. I was glad as she had her big spring concert on Friday night and was able to go and be in it. She was so cute up there singing.
How are you doing? Hanging in there? I am picking up my splint tomorrow morning and cannot wait. This is going to help me, I just know it!!! Take care and talk to you soon, Michelle
hbep
05-18-2003, 04:33 PM
Hi there Cheryl,
Someone (sorry, can't remember who) on this board regularly posts at the end of their message:
'Some doctors are only alive because it's illegal to kill them'
Think that sums it up nicely.
I was doing research today where it said that tmj falls between two stools, it is neither the terrain of dentists or doctors and MOST IMPORTANTLY for your son, neither are required to study it in much detail so often know very little about it. This doctor may be very good at the field he is in, but tmjd certainly falls outside of it. His information is NOT reliable.
Someone (sorry, can't remember who) on this board regularly posts at the end of their message:
'Some doctors are only alive because it's illegal to kill them'
Think that sums it up nicely.
I was doing research today where it said that tmj falls between two stools, it is neither the terrain of dentists or doctors and MOST IMPORTANTLY for your son, neither are required to study it in much detail so often know very little about it. This doctor may be very good at the field he is in, but tmjd certainly falls outside of it. His information is NOT reliable.
TiffanyAnn
05-18-2003, 10:18 PM
Hi Cheryl:
Well by now you clearly know what I think of most doctors. The remark this man made to you son was not only bad for your son but I believe it would be bad for anyone to hear. Nobody wants some "doctor" telling them that they have no chance of ever getting well. That is a bad idea to tell an adult or a child. After all we all need hope to keep us going. And MichaelV, maybe alot of us do have a virulent distrust of doctors and all of us have a good reason for that distrust. Doctors think of themselves as "Gods" and praise themselves more than I could ever praise them. So, have you had success with TMJ treatment? If so, please do tell us about it.
Tiffany
Well by now you clearly know what I think of most doctors. The remark this man made to you son was not only bad for your son but I believe it would be bad for anyone to hear. Nobody wants some "doctor" telling them that they have no chance of ever getting well. That is a bad idea to tell an adult or a child. After all we all need hope to keep us going. And MichaelV, maybe alot of us do have a virulent distrust of doctors and all of us have a good reason for that distrust. Doctors think of themselves as "Gods" and praise themselves more than I could ever praise them. So, have you had success with TMJ treatment? If so, please do tell us about it.
Tiffany
CherylLynn24
05-19-2003, 01:58 AM
Wow, I didn't think that this would get this many replies. Thanks to all for replying.
Heather-making a complaint with the hospital would be a waste of time. I'd rather spend my time finding him some help and doing research. It was a good idea, though. It would be fruitless, do you think that they really care? Let me tell you, when he was 4, he was hospitalized for some type of virus that we couldn't get a handle on. 104 temp., vomiting, etc... He was in the hospital for about 2 weeks. After being there for about a week, they brought in a kid (around the same age, to share the room) must've been around 2 in the morning. The parents started talking to me and my husband, swapping what's wrong with each of our kids, and here their kid had bacterial meningitis! (extremely contagious, since my kid was already so ill, it probably would've killed him) I got the nurses in there immediately to take us to another room. The staff said that it was an error. Some error!! I spent the next few weeks writing to different "higher ups" at the hospital, and in the end, I was told-sorry, it was a mistake, your son's okay, so what's the problem? I doubt making a complaint about this would be of any use, if making a complaint about that was a waste.
Diane,
You're right that it takes 100 positives to negate a negative. Now, instead of him asking me if he's going to get better 100 times a day, it seems like 1000. I'll push him into getting a positive attitude about this yet!
Al4 and Tiffany,
I agree with you both 100%, I don't need to say anymore!
hbep,
I like your quote-how true!!
uscoastiewife,
I'm glad to hear that you're seeing some improvement. I keep telling him the same as you said, the right doctor will help, and we'll find him. The sad thing is, if a doctor tells us as adults, that we won't get better, sure it bothers us, but we move on, we know better. Being young and hearing that, especially when he trusts these doctors, is devastating. We'll eventually find the right guy.
Michelle,
I told him what you said, and he seemed a little better. No one's going to walk into the ER saying they're cured or better from their tmj problems! Besides, this isn't their specialty. Let me know tomorrow, when you get back from the doctor how it went. It made me smile to see your optimism, it WILL work!
MichaelV,
It almost sounds as if it's in your best financial interests to protect doctors. I feel anyone, no matter what field, should be held accountable for their wrong-doings, mistakes, or any other action that harms a person, be it physically or mentally. If someone is not trained to do a job, they should not make themself believed to be capable by way of deception. They should not make false promises that they never plan to follow through on. I feel that is where much of the skeptisism of doctors stems from. If you were to take you car into a auto shop to be repaired, and the repair was performed incorrectly by an unqualified technician, causing a loved one to be involved in a accident that destroyed their life, or inflicted enough pain for that loved one to wish that they did not have to exist in this world anymore... would you have any bitterness toward the owner of the auto shop? Following your past advice, would you say it was ok for him to allow an unqualified technician to perform the job, and just say oops? You seem to have this attitude for doctors that removes all responsibility for their level of service. If we need to break it down to simple provider/consumer terms, they are being paid to offer a service as they advertise. But as we all know, in the medical field, there is no such thing as a money-back-guarentee... So, that equates to me as "buyer be warned". So, with that said... the consumer/patient must do their own research to find out what has worked for others. Yet, how often have you gone into a doctor's office and asked questions on different types of treatments... I have even used their terminology to ease this process (speaking their linqo) and I get the attitude of... "Well, if you know so much and don't want to follow my advice, maybe you should see someone else." Yet if we do follow their advise and are crippled by their bad judgement or lack of experience, we should show them sympathy and compassion? Where is their compassion? I really have a hard time with that logic. With that said, not all doctors fall into this category. There are many great doctors out there... it's just the ones like I have mentioned that seem to 'float' and they are the doctor's that are discussed on here in detail.
I'm very sorry that you find people's misfortunes as a result of mis-treatment, mis-diagnosis or just carelessness, as galling. I know you mean well by your posts, and I appreciate the difference in point-of-view you offer, it just differs from mine. I hope your problems are getting better!
I think this board offers a great place for people to vent some of this frustration and receive advice from others that have been through this merry-go-round. I have received such great advice and support from many of the people on this board, and I know that eventually it will help my son to be a kid once again.
I hope that everyone's tomorrow is just a little bit better with less pain.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
Heather-making a complaint with the hospital would be a waste of time. I'd rather spend my time finding him some help and doing research. It was a good idea, though. It would be fruitless, do you think that they really care? Let me tell you, when he was 4, he was hospitalized for some type of virus that we couldn't get a handle on. 104 temp., vomiting, etc... He was in the hospital for about 2 weeks. After being there for about a week, they brought in a kid (around the same age, to share the room) must've been around 2 in the morning. The parents started talking to me and my husband, swapping what's wrong with each of our kids, and here their kid had bacterial meningitis! (extremely contagious, since my kid was already so ill, it probably would've killed him) I got the nurses in there immediately to take us to another room. The staff said that it was an error. Some error!! I spent the next few weeks writing to different "higher ups" at the hospital, and in the end, I was told-sorry, it was a mistake, your son's okay, so what's the problem? I doubt making a complaint about this would be of any use, if making a complaint about that was a waste.
Diane,
You're right that it takes 100 positives to negate a negative. Now, instead of him asking me if he's going to get better 100 times a day, it seems like 1000. I'll push him into getting a positive attitude about this yet!
Al4 and Tiffany,
I agree with you both 100%, I don't need to say anymore!
hbep,
I like your quote-how true!!
uscoastiewife,
I'm glad to hear that you're seeing some improvement. I keep telling him the same as you said, the right doctor will help, and we'll find him. The sad thing is, if a doctor tells us as adults, that we won't get better, sure it bothers us, but we move on, we know better. Being young and hearing that, especially when he trusts these doctors, is devastating. We'll eventually find the right guy.
Michelle,
I told him what you said, and he seemed a little better. No one's going to walk into the ER saying they're cured or better from their tmj problems! Besides, this isn't their specialty. Let me know tomorrow, when you get back from the doctor how it went. It made me smile to see your optimism, it WILL work!
MichaelV,
It almost sounds as if it's in your best financial interests to protect doctors. I feel anyone, no matter what field, should be held accountable for their wrong-doings, mistakes, or any other action that harms a person, be it physically or mentally. If someone is not trained to do a job, they should not make themself believed to be capable by way of deception. They should not make false promises that they never plan to follow through on. I feel that is where much of the skeptisism of doctors stems from. If you were to take you car into a auto shop to be repaired, and the repair was performed incorrectly by an unqualified technician, causing a loved one to be involved in a accident that destroyed their life, or inflicted enough pain for that loved one to wish that they did not have to exist in this world anymore... would you have any bitterness toward the owner of the auto shop? Following your past advice, would you say it was ok for him to allow an unqualified technician to perform the job, and just say oops? You seem to have this attitude for doctors that removes all responsibility for their level of service. If we need to break it down to simple provider/consumer terms, they are being paid to offer a service as they advertise. But as we all know, in the medical field, there is no such thing as a money-back-guarentee... So, that equates to me as "buyer be warned". So, with that said... the consumer/patient must do their own research to find out what has worked for others. Yet, how often have you gone into a doctor's office and asked questions on different types of treatments... I have even used their terminology to ease this process (speaking their linqo) and I get the attitude of... "Well, if you know so much and don't want to follow my advice, maybe you should see someone else." Yet if we do follow their advise and are crippled by their bad judgement or lack of experience, we should show them sympathy and compassion? Where is their compassion? I really have a hard time with that logic. With that said, not all doctors fall into this category. There are many great doctors out there... it's just the ones like I have mentioned that seem to 'float' and they are the doctor's that are discussed on here in detail.
I'm very sorry that you find people's misfortunes as a result of mis-treatment, mis-diagnosis or just carelessness, as galling. I know you mean well by your posts, and I appreciate the difference in point-of-view you offer, it just differs from mine. I hope your problems are getting better!
I think this board offers a great place for people to vent some of this frustration and receive advice from others that have been through this merry-go-round. I have received such great advice and support from many of the people on this board, and I know that eventually it will help my son to be a kid once again.
I hope that everyone's tomorrow is just a little bit better with less pain.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
Cymy Sue
05-19-2003, 08:13 AM
What has happened to Mike is an all to often occurence. I do understand your feelings on trying to complain regarding inappropriate behaviour. I sense from your posts that you are too tired to expend energy fighting what seems to be, a hopeless cause.
I had an "Experience" with an ER visit in Jan.
I went in late one evening barely able to breathe and had chest tightness. I knew it was some type of bronchitis and I needed help. The shortness of breath had been going on several days. The Doctor I saw on admission did exactly what he should have. Chest X-ray, blood work, EKG, listened to my chest,etc.(I was wheezing) All the test came back OK, so he said I was having some kind of bronchial-spasms and gave me a breathing treatment and told me if it helped, he would give me another one in about an hour. It helped. I immediately started breathing better and the tightness seemed to ease up. About an hour later, I was waiting for the Pulmonary Tech to come back for the 2nd treatment.
(During this whole 2 hour stay, my BP was 110/60, pulse 70, and my EKG was perfect. This is all normal for me.)
At this point, a new Doctor appeared at the door,he did not come in the room, did not ask me if the breathing treatment had helped or anything else on the lines of the first Doctor's diagnosis.
He introduced himself, told me the shift had changed, and that due to my history, I was having a "Little Anxiety" and he would give me a script for Ativan.
I told him I was not anxious or nervous and I did not need Ativan. I told him the 1st Doctor had diagnosed bronchitis and I had thought I would be given something for "Bronchitis". He rolled his eyes and walked away. The Nurse Tech (a male) who had been monitering my vitals and had been in the room the majority of the time turned "Bright Red" and started taking off the monitors and removing the Pulmonary Meds and equipment that had been left for my second treatment. I asked him what was going on. I asked him with my vitals being totally normal & stable and the bronchitis being very apparent(Wheezing), did it look like to him that I was having an "Anxiety Attack". He said "No ma'am, but we have to follow the Doctors orders." I ask him, what history was this Dr. referring too. He said he didn't know.
I asked him if a 50 year old man had come into the ER with shortness of breath & chest tightness, would he be sent away with a bottle of nerve pills. He said "No ma'am". He whispered, see your PCP asap, you have bronchitis. I was dismissed with a diagnosis of Anxiety and a script of Ativan.
I did see my PCP and was treated for a lingering, allergy related bronchitis for the next couple of months. My PCP had received the ER report, I told him the story and he could not believe the behaviour of this Dr. It was there in black & white. Treatment for Bronchitis with wheezing(1st Dr.) turned into an Anxiety Attack (2nd Dr.) His staff got a good laugh. They told me from my "Vitals", I had one of the most controlled "Anxiety Attacks" they had ever seen. (Note: Had I taken the Ativan on top of the other meds I was on, I might not be here to type this post. That Dr. did not even look at my medical history)
I know this is long, but this travesty is on-going.
AND I DO WRITE LETTERS. I wrote a 3 page letter, 2 days after this "mess" and sent it to the ER Dept. Director, the Hospital ADM., and the owners of this system of Hospitals.
I got a call immediately from the ER Director, with profuse apologies on behalf of the DR., the ER, and the Hospital Adm. I was told that in changing shifts, my records had been confused with someone else's. I ask her why the Doctor did not recheck when I expressed my confusion and why he just left my doorway with a sarcastic look. She had no answer.
She wanted to know what "they could do to remedy this situation." I told her I wanted my records corrected.
She said that was against the law, but since there had been a "Problem" and my treatment had been inappropriate due to an error, my Insurance Company nor I, would be charged. I told her this really did not help, that Doctors like him was the reason there is an "Epidemic" of negligent treatment, especially the ever increasing incidence of women dying of heart related problems. We are not treated the same way as men. Men are taken seriously with shortness of breath & chest tightness. Women get sent home with nerve pills. She agreed and said they were making many changes in this area. (Right!!!!)
I thought it was over, I felt better by writing the letter and getting this fiasco off my chest.
I never recieved a bill or summary from my Health Carrier, so I thought all was well.
This past Fri., 4 months after this incident, I recieved a Summary of Payment from my "Mental Health Carrier." They had been billed & paid 974$ for this visit. I called and ask what this was for. I was told that my diagnosis for the ER Visit was "MENTAL HEALTH DISORDER". :mad:
I guess most people would let this go, this money did not come out of my pocket. "BUT, THIS IS NOT RIGHT" and in the long run, we all pay. This is the reason healthcare is astronomical and continues to climb.
This particular incident could be considered fraudulent billing. I was physically ill and have proof.
Needless to say, I will be in contact with the person who apologized for this mess and find out "WHY" my MH Ins. was billed. I do not intend to sue these people, but I did tell my MH Carrier the story, so I don't know what they might do.
This kind of incompetence goes on all the time. From Doctors, records departments, billing, etc.
Sorry to get on my soapbox, but I have always been a letter writer & complainer when I see an injustice. I've had it happen too many times. I have seen some good results in the past, just from letters. I expect I will get this matter straightened out. I can be persistant. If they give me a problem, I want to see them prove I have a Mental Health Disorder, to justify their billing. They can't. I can prove I have been a victim, again, of " The Stupid Doctors Disease".
Cheryl,
I see you have gotten many replies, mostly people who have experienced the same type of behaviour by Arrogant Medical Professionals, who would fare better by digging ditches than treating human beings with health problems.
We've had this debate before. There are differences of opinons, regarding Doctors and our failing HealthCare System. There is one, when you have time to read, back in Jan., where several members voiced their opinions. The Thread is titled "Doctors..A Little Harsh on Them"
And don't worry, those of us who do not have a sick child to take of, will continue to write letters and wage complaints againt the "Almighty American Medical Machine".
I hope you have been able to convey to Mike, without damaging his trust in "Good Doctors", that there are some "Bad Ones" and he will "NOT" have to live with TMJD his whole life. Please tell him, I am getting better daily, because I found a "Good Doctor".
Cymy Sue
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-19-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-19-2003).]
I had an "Experience" with an ER visit in Jan.
I went in late one evening barely able to breathe and had chest tightness. I knew it was some type of bronchitis and I needed help. The shortness of breath had been going on several days. The Doctor I saw on admission did exactly what he should have. Chest X-ray, blood work, EKG, listened to my chest,etc.(I was wheezing) All the test came back OK, so he said I was having some kind of bronchial-spasms and gave me a breathing treatment and told me if it helped, he would give me another one in about an hour. It helped. I immediately started breathing better and the tightness seemed to ease up. About an hour later, I was waiting for the Pulmonary Tech to come back for the 2nd treatment.
(During this whole 2 hour stay, my BP was 110/60, pulse 70, and my EKG was perfect. This is all normal for me.)
At this point, a new Doctor appeared at the door,he did not come in the room, did not ask me if the breathing treatment had helped or anything else on the lines of the first Doctor's diagnosis.
He introduced himself, told me the shift had changed, and that due to my history, I was having a "Little Anxiety" and he would give me a script for Ativan.
I told him I was not anxious or nervous and I did not need Ativan. I told him the 1st Doctor had diagnosed bronchitis and I had thought I would be given something for "Bronchitis". He rolled his eyes and walked away. The Nurse Tech (a male) who had been monitering my vitals and had been in the room the majority of the time turned "Bright Red" and started taking off the monitors and removing the Pulmonary Meds and equipment that had been left for my second treatment. I asked him what was going on. I asked him with my vitals being totally normal & stable and the bronchitis being very apparent(Wheezing), did it look like to him that I was having an "Anxiety Attack". He said "No ma'am, but we have to follow the Doctors orders." I ask him, what history was this Dr. referring too. He said he didn't know.
I asked him if a 50 year old man had come into the ER with shortness of breath & chest tightness, would he be sent away with a bottle of nerve pills. He said "No ma'am". He whispered, see your PCP asap, you have bronchitis. I was dismissed with a diagnosis of Anxiety and a script of Ativan.
I did see my PCP and was treated for a lingering, allergy related bronchitis for the next couple of months. My PCP had received the ER report, I told him the story and he could not believe the behaviour of this Dr. It was there in black & white. Treatment for Bronchitis with wheezing(1st Dr.) turned into an Anxiety Attack (2nd Dr.) His staff got a good laugh. They told me from my "Vitals", I had one of the most controlled "Anxiety Attacks" they had ever seen. (Note: Had I taken the Ativan on top of the other meds I was on, I might not be here to type this post. That Dr. did not even look at my medical history)
I know this is long, but this travesty is on-going.
AND I DO WRITE LETTERS. I wrote a 3 page letter, 2 days after this "mess" and sent it to the ER Dept. Director, the Hospital ADM., and the owners of this system of Hospitals.
I got a call immediately from the ER Director, with profuse apologies on behalf of the DR., the ER, and the Hospital Adm. I was told that in changing shifts, my records had been confused with someone else's. I ask her why the Doctor did not recheck when I expressed my confusion and why he just left my doorway with a sarcastic look. She had no answer.
She wanted to know what "they could do to remedy this situation." I told her I wanted my records corrected.
She said that was against the law, but since there had been a "Problem" and my treatment had been inappropriate due to an error, my Insurance Company nor I, would be charged. I told her this really did not help, that Doctors like him was the reason there is an "Epidemic" of negligent treatment, especially the ever increasing incidence of women dying of heart related problems. We are not treated the same way as men. Men are taken seriously with shortness of breath & chest tightness. Women get sent home with nerve pills. She agreed and said they were making many changes in this area. (Right!!!!)
I thought it was over, I felt better by writing the letter and getting this fiasco off my chest.
I never recieved a bill or summary from my Health Carrier, so I thought all was well.
This past Fri., 4 months after this incident, I recieved a Summary of Payment from my "Mental Health Carrier." They had been billed & paid 974$ for this visit. I called and ask what this was for. I was told that my diagnosis for the ER Visit was "MENTAL HEALTH DISORDER". :mad:
I guess most people would let this go, this money did not come out of my pocket. "BUT, THIS IS NOT RIGHT" and in the long run, we all pay. This is the reason healthcare is astronomical and continues to climb.
This particular incident could be considered fraudulent billing. I was physically ill and have proof.
Needless to say, I will be in contact with the person who apologized for this mess and find out "WHY" my MH Ins. was billed. I do not intend to sue these people, but I did tell my MH Carrier the story, so I don't know what they might do.
This kind of incompetence goes on all the time. From Doctors, records departments, billing, etc.
Sorry to get on my soapbox, but I have always been a letter writer & complainer when I see an injustice. I've had it happen too many times. I have seen some good results in the past, just from letters. I expect I will get this matter straightened out. I can be persistant. If they give me a problem, I want to see them prove I have a Mental Health Disorder, to justify their billing. They can't. I can prove I have been a victim, again, of " The Stupid Doctors Disease".
Cheryl,
I see you have gotten many replies, mostly people who have experienced the same type of behaviour by Arrogant Medical Professionals, who would fare better by digging ditches than treating human beings with health problems.
We've had this debate before. There are differences of opinons, regarding Doctors and our failing HealthCare System. There is one, when you have time to read, back in Jan., where several members voiced their opinions. The Thread is titled "Doctors..A Little Harsh on Them"
And don't worry, those of us who do not have a sick child to take of, will continue to write letters and wage complaints againt the "Almighty American Medical Machine".
I hope you have been able to convey to Mike, without damaging his trust in "Good Doctors", that there are some "Bad Ones" and he will "NOT" have to live with TMJD his whole life. Please tell him, I am getting better daily, because I found a "Good Doctor".
Cymy Sue
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-19-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-19-2003).]
PINKYPRISCILLA
05-19-2003, 11:27 AM
that is horrible what he said!! He is ignorant to tmj and I wouldn't even worry about it. Yes, it is a disorder that we have to manage our whole lives, but it can be controlled with the proper treatment.
HRevero
05-19-2003, 11:56 AM
Wow Cymy Sue, you also had an ordeal!!!!!!
It is so hard to see what making a mistake in the doctor field can cost the patient. There are good doctors but I don't think this one falls under that category. Why is it that when everything else fails they diagnose you with anxiety or depression? I do suffer a lot from these disorders also but it makes everything so much harder when people are diagnosed with things that don't even relate to them.
Since I worked at an elementary school I was always getting sick, I would go to the same doctor's office to get treated. Most of teh doctor's knew where I worked and understood, but the other doctor's loved to flip through ALL of the pages in my file.
This one particular doctor loves to diagnose me with asthma. I have never had asthma and I still don't. Micaiah's mom is a nurse and has even checked me out. This one doctor perscribed asthma medicine that I did not take. I know that I do have allergies, anxiety, and tmj.
Heather
It is so hard to see what making a mistake in the doctor field can cost the patient. There are good doctors but I don't think this one falls under that category. Why is it that when everything else fails they diagnose you with anxiety or depression? I do suffer a lot from these disorders also but it makes everything so much harder when people are diagnosed with things that don't even relate to them.
Since I worked at an elementary school I was always getting sick, I would go to the same doctor's office to get treated. Most of teh doctor's knew where I worked and understood, but the other doctor's loved to flip through ALL of the pages in my file.
This one particular doctor loves to diagnose me with asthma. I have never had asthma and I still don't. Micaiah's mom is a nurse and has even checked me out. This one doctor perscribed asthma medicine that I did not take. I know that I do have allergies, anxiety, and tmj.
Heather
PINKYPRISCILLA
05-19-2003, 12:10 PM
I've had people telling me "oh what a shame" Like there's
no hope. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Those people are ignorant to tmj and treatment. It isn't easy but there is hope.
no hope. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Those people are ignorant to tmj and treatment. It isn't easy but there is hope.
MichaelV
05-19-2003, 03:17 PM
Cheryl
I would agree with everything you said about incompetent practitioners in whatever field!
I never said otherwise of course - except that I thought a silly remark, as upsetting as it was, but nevertheless well meaning, should not be something to formally complain about. This is not, in the strictest sense of the word about mistreatment, mis-diagnosis, malpractice etc. No doctors should be exonerated from that. And my own mother suffered horribly from a misdiagnosis in an Accident And Emergency department. Yet despite this, I felt the doctor, regardless of his error, was not deserving of villification. We complained and were compensated - such was the gravity of his error, but I do not believe in being as virulently aggressive towards mistake-makers as some.
Funnily enough, your original post was merely a "venting" of your feelings towards the silliness of this doctor's remark. It was those who recommended going after him formally that I took issue with.
I have followed your story keenly and from time to time have involved myself in it. I have nothing but sympathy for you and your son.
The general debate about doctors, many of whom are not always helpful, has been had before. I do think that certain experiences have given some a "tar them all with the same brush" approach which I just do not think helps anyone.
I have no financial interest in "defending" doctors. I work in the arts. I have reported my own encounters with them too. I am not sure it does you any credit to diminish my view or what I say with such a remark. But I haven't taken any real offence. It was also a terrible misrepresentation to say I found people's misfortune galling. This is clearly NOT what I said.
Ironically, I have only really had any effective treatment from someone who is NOT a doctor - yet most people will hopefully be treated successfully one day and that treatment is still likely to come from a doctor.
[This message has been edited by MichaelV (edited 05-19-2003).]
I would agree with everything you said about incompetent practitioners in whatever field!
I never said otherwise of course - except that I thought a silly remark, as upsetting as it was, but nevertheless well meaning, should not be something to formally complain about. This is not, in the strictest sense of the word about mistreatment, mis-diagnosis, malpractice etc. No doctors should be exonerated from that. And my own mother suffered horribly from a misdiagnosis in an Accident And Emergency department. Yet despite this, I felt the doctor, regardless of his error, was not deserving of villification. We complained and were compensated - such was the gravity of his error, but I do not believe in being as virulently aggressive towards mistake-makers as some.
Funnily enough, your original post was merely a "venting" of your feelings towards the silliness of this doctor's remark. It was those who recommended going after him formally that I took issue with.
I have followed your story keenly and from time to time have involved myself in it. I have nothing but sympathy for you and your son.
The general debate about doctors, many of whom are not always helpful, has been had before. I do think that certain experiences have given some a "tar them all with the same brush" approach which I just do not think helps anyone.
I have no financial interest in "defending" doctors. I work in the arts. I have reported my own encounters with them too. I am not sure it does you any credit to diminish my view or what I say with such a remark. But I haven't taken any real offence. It was also a terrible misrepresentation to say I found people's misfortune galling. This is clearly NOT what I said.
Ironically, I have only really had any effective treatment from someone who is NOT a doctor - yet most people will hopefully be treated successfully one day and that treatment is still likely to come from a doctor.
[This message has been edited by MichaelV (edited 05-19-2003).]
OHJELJ
05-19-2003, 04:31 PM
Cheryl,
Just got on and read what happened to you guys. Was this at Lakewood? I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Please tell Mike that there are two types of hospitals, one where the doctors are well versed in the proper things to say, etiquette etc...and the other, well, the doctors moonlight and fill in and are adequate doctors, but they don't necessarily have the 'touch' that would enable them to be classified as 'good' doctors. It's that difference that separates Lakewood from other facilities. You'll have stupid people who don't think before they speak everywhere you go. You just hope that they don't exist in the ER....they do.
My brother is an ER doc and I told him what was said to you...he was appalled and said that it wasn't true whatsoever and it sounded like the doctor was making a lame attempt to be sympathetic. Just ignore his ignorance and remember, he is NOT an TMJ specialist, nor does he have a true grasp of what Mike is going through.
My headaches are under control, but not because of the ER docs there. My PT helped more than the docs did because they understand what the symptoms and side effects of TMJ are! My brother would be the first person to tell you he isn't an expert in the field and instead of making a blanket statement like the doc from the ER, he would say that you should go see a specialist. He would treat Mike's pain and that would be the end of it...that's what should have happened for you guys.
I'm sorry you went through such an awful experience...tomorrow is another day Scarlett...hopefully Mike will understand that just because someone has Dr. in front of their name, doesn't make them a smart person! :)
Jennifer
Just got on and read what happened to you guys. Was this at Lakewood? I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Please tell Mike that there are two types of hospitals, one where the doctors are well versed in the proper things to say, etiquette etc...and the other, well, the doctors moonlight and fill in and are adequate doctors, but they don't necessarily have the 'touch' that would enable them to be classified as 'good' doctors. It's that difference that separates Lakewood from other facilities. You'll have stupid people who don't think before they speak everywhere you go. You just hope that they don't exist in the ER....they do.
My brother is an ER doc and I told him what was said to you...he was appalled and said that it wasn't true whatsoever and it sounded like the doctor was making a lame attempt to be sympathetic. Just ignore his ignorance and remember, he is NOT an TMJ specialist, nor does he have a true grasp of what Mike is going through.
My headaches are under control, but not because of the ER docs there. My PT helped more than the docs did because they understand what the symptoms and side effects of TMJ are! My brother would be the first person to tell you he isn't an expert in the field and instead of making a blanket statement like the doc from the ER, he would say that you should go see a specialist. He would treat Mike's pain and that would be the end of it...that's what should have happened for you guys.
I'm sorry you went through such an awful experience...tomorrow is another day Scarlett...hopefully Mike will understand that just because someone has Dr. in front of their name, doesn't make them a smart person! :)
Jennifer
CherylLynn24
05-19-2003, 11:58 PM
Cymy Sue, Michael, and Jennifer,
Just wanted to let you know that I will respond to all of you tomorrow. This virus has really knocked me down, why is it that kids never 'seem' this ill?! (they still run around, if I did that right now, I'd probably fall over!) :(
Cheryl
Just wanted to let you know that I will respond to all of you tomorrow. This virus has really knocked me down, why is it that kids never 'seem' this ill?! (they still run around, if I did that right now, I'd probably fall over!) :(
Cheryl
TiffanyAnn
05-20-2003, 12:33 AM
Hi Cheryl:
I hope you get to feeling better soon. I always wonder about that too. Kids get the flu and are still able to run around, yell and function. We get the flu and it knocks us on our butts. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/yawn.gif Feel better soon.
Love ya,
Tiffany
I hope you get to feeling better soon. I always wonder about that too. Kids get the flu and are still able to run around, yell and function. We get the flu and it knocks us on our butts. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/yawn.gif Feel better soon.
Love ya,
Tiffany
Cymy Sue
05-20-2003, 06:49 AM
Hi Cheryl,
I'm so sorry to hear you have one of "The Bugs".
Also, I didn't intend to interject such a long post regarding my recent experience with "Total Incompentence" from beginning to end from a simple ER visit. I was just so angry when I got the Bill Summary from my MH Carrier and you had made this post...... This mess was settled yesterday. The ER Director apologized profusely again, said the billing dept. had made the error and all would be corrected. I asked for this in writing, this time, and she agreed. End of story, I hope.
As far as Mike's experience, this statement may have been made out of total stupidity regarding TMJD, by this Doctor, but it was damaging to Mike and inexcusable. I do not understand people getting into the Medical Profession, taking all the curriculum required, (of which I believe a certain amount of pyschology is required) and coming out of all of this training without a clue of what is appropriate to say to patients. What happens to these people? Do they not realize that by becoming Physicians, they will be treating sick people? People who need understanding and compassion, along with Medical Treatment.
I do not include all Doctors in this statement, there are some very wonderful Physicians, who understand the Human Mind, and know everything they say makes an impression on us. There are those, however, who should not be allowed Human Contact.
I do hope Mike is feeling better about this incident.
When I was young, we had mostly "Dr. Welby's". Sadly, that is not the case any longer.
Cymy Sue
I'm so sorry to hear you have one of "The Bugs".
Also, I didn't intend to interject such a long post regarding my recent experience with "Total Incompentence" from beginning to end from a simple ER visit. I was just so angry when I got the Bill Summary from my MH Carrier and you had made this post...... This mess was settled yesterday. The ER Director apologized profusely again, said the billing dept. had made the error and all would be corrected. I asked for this in writing, this time, and she agreed. End of story, I hope.
As far as Mike's experience, this statement may have been made out of total stupidity regarding TMJD, by this Doctor, but it was damaging to Mike and inexcusable. I do not understand people getting into the Medical Profession, taking all the curriculum required, (of which I believe a certain amount of pyschology is required) and coming out of all of this training without a clue of what is appropriate to say to patients. What happens to these people? Do they not realize that by becoming Physicians, they will be treating sick people? People who need understanding and compassion, along with Medical Treatment.
I do not include all Doctors in this statement, there are some very wonderful Physicians, who understand the Human Mind, and know everything they say makes an impression on us. There are those, however, who should not be allowed Human Contact.
I do hope Mike is feeling better about this incident.
When I was young, we had mostly "Dr. Welby's". Sadly, that is not the case any longer.
Cymy Sue
MichaelV
05-20-2003, 11:33 AM
Well Sue I think you are right to question why some doctors have not developed the right "bedside manner".
There are a number of reasons for it.
In this case, I think he meant well and was sympathising but was exceedingly clumsy.
Others do see medicine as a good and lucrative career and fail to develop the proper understanding of the pastoral care needed. My brother in law, when starting out as a GP was very cynical and dismissive of his patients but as he has gotten older he has changed a lot.
Some of course are true vocational doctors who have a genuinely caring attitude.
I think doctors feel a frustration - something I have heard many express to me - that people come to them looking for answers and sometimes there are no easy or immediate solutions. It frustrates them that they cannot help and it frustrates them that people get angry with them for being unable to do so. SOmetimes they are under so much pressure to "do something" that they try things, usually in the interests of patients - and when that does not work or has other undesirable effects, they are then accused of being arrogant, using people as guinea pigs etc etc etc. They cannot always win.
There are a number of reasons for it.
In this case, I think he meant well and was sympathising but was exceedingly clumsy.
Others do see medicine as a good and lucrative career and fail to develop the proper understanding of the pastoral care needed. My brother in law, when starting out as a GP was very cynical and dismissive of his patients but as he has gotten older he has changed a lot.
Some of course are true vocational doctors who have a genuinely caring attitude.
I think doctors feel a frustration - something I have heard many express to me - that people come to them looking for answers and sometimes there are no easy or immediate solutions. It frustrates them that they cannot help and it frustrates them that people get angry with them for being unable to do so. SOmetimes they are under so much pressure to "do something" that they try things, usually in the interests of patients - and when that does not work or has other undesirable effects, they are then accused of being arrogant, using people as guinea pigs etc etc etc. They cannot always win.
CherylLynn24
05-20-2003, 12:18 PM
Cymy Sue,
Please don't ever feel that you are interjecting. I do appreciate hearing of others' experiences. Your experience with the ER and billing does not surprise me at all. I had similar problems when I was first diagnosed with fibro. The doctor that I was seeing wanted to try different antidepressants (for their pain reducing properties) and when I would get the Explanation of Benefits from my insurance company, they filed it under 'Mental Health'. I had a real problem with that, but after many months, phone calls, and much patience, it was straightened out. If I am not seeing my health care provider for mental health issues, then I don't want it coded as that, and it being 'filed' in my records as 'mental health'.
I, too, am a writer, when I see or experience injustice. When I wrote of the time my son was in the hospital and they brought the child with meningitis in with him, (me, saying that writing was a waste) that was my mood at the time. It is never a waste. No, I did not expect anything to really come out of all that, but I said my piece. (many times to many people) Once I feel better, I will write to admin. down at the hospital. I know that nothing will come of it, but I will feel again, that I've said 'my piece'. There is no excuse for ignorance.
Over the years, I've had more than my share of problems within the medical field. You speak of the old 'Dr. Welby's'. When I was young, my mother took us regularly to a 'Dr. Welby'. He was a wonderful doctor. Back then everything wasn't so 'specialized'. This doctor delivered me, took my tonsils out, and provided extraordinary care for me until I became an adult. It was hard to see him retire. Were there medical errors and mistakes back then? Oh, I'm sure that there were, but no where near the astronomical amount that we see and hear of today. The physician that I see today is also a great doctor. I've been seeing him for nearly 15 years. He has taken very good care of me over the years, and provided very good advice. He's always told me of the 'Bad' doctors that are out there, and always provides me with names of doctors that he feels are in 'good standing'. Sadly enough, he just told me last month that he will retire next April. He said that he is tired of the bureaucracy and red tape, so to say, in the medical field. He said that when he became a physician, it was because he wanted to help people and save lives, but he is growing tired of the medical community. We had often talked of the rising medical malpractice insurance that doctors are facing. He feels that it is completely wrong to 'cap' malpractice claims. (tort reform) Doctors also need to start looking at their collegues to 'weed out' the persons responsible for making frequent medical errors, thus raising doctors' malpractice insurance. Why should the public be punished further, (by tort reform and caps) for medical errors that are not in our control?
His wife was a victim of medical malpractice. She was his nurse down at his office, very down to earth, kind woman. She was having problems, went and had a mammogram done. Came out normal, the problems persisted. About 6 months later, he pulled her out of the facility that she was being seen at, and took her to another. By this time, she was very sickly. Here it turns out that the first mammogram showed full blown breast cancer. The doctor and the radiologist missed it. She had a double massectomy and most lymph nodes removed. Her and I wrote at that time, and she still remained optimistic that she would recover. She eventually died a few months later. He still gets upset with himself for not looking at that first mammogram with his own eyes.
This past Halloween I saw something quite odd, that really made me think. One of the neighbors, farther down the street, put tombstones all over their yard. They all had sayings on them. One said, 'here lies Joe, the doctor said that it was only heartburn'. You get the idea, a different line for each one. Our medical system is in need of a major overhaul. Think about this for a moment, everyone on this board at one time or another, has experienced malpractice, medical errors, etc.. Now if we've all experienced this, from all areas, what's it REALLY like out there? We all shouldn't have to research everything to death, to make sure our loved ones get the proper treatment, or to make sure that they're not harmed.
Anyway, on a lighter note, my son's pediatrician phoned today (as he has every week) to see if he's getting any relief from his tmjd yet. He's another good, kind, doctor. He has admitted to not knowing much about tmjd, (which I respect) but has offered as much help as he can give through testing. I have to run him to his maso. appt. today, hopefully, he feels a little better upon our return.
How's your back doing? I hope you're seeing some relief from your epidural. I've heard you talk of your tinnitus frequently. How has that been for you? I know that you first described it as 'jet engines roaring', and thereafter, said that it had tamed down. Still bearable?
Well, I have to go and catch a quick nap, (still feel lousy) I hope that you're having a good day. Also, started to read "Doctors-too harsh on them", quite a long one, I haven't had a chance to finish, but will read this later. Thanks,
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 05-20-2003).]
Please don't ever feel that you are interjecting. I do appreciate hearing of others' experiences. Your experience with the ER and billing does not surprise me at all. I had similar problems when I was first diagnosed with fibro. The doctor that I was seeing wanted to try different antidepressants (for their pain reducing properties) and when I would get the Explanation of Benefits from my insurance company, they filed it under 'Mental Health'. I had a real problem with that, but after many months, phone calls, and much patience, it was straightened out. If I am not seeing my health care provider for mental health issues, then I don't want it coded as that, and it being 'filed' in my records as 'mental health'.
I, too, am a writer, when I see or experience injustice. When I wrote of the time my son was in the hospital and they brought the child with meningitis in with him, (me, saying that writing was a waste) that was my mood at the time. It is never a waste. No, I did not expect anything to really come out of all that, but I said my piece. (many times to many people) Once I feel better, I will write to admin. down at the hospital. I know that nothing will come of it, but I will feel again, that I've said 'my piece'. There is no excuse for ignorance.
Over the years, I've had more than my share of problems within the medical field. You speak of the old 'Dr. Welby's'. When I was young, my mother took us regularly to a 'Dr. Welby'. He was a wonderful doctor. Back then everything wasn't so 'specialized'. This doctor delivered me, took my tonsils out, and provided extraordinary care for me until I became an adult. It was hard to see him retire. Were there medical errors and mistakes back then? Oh, I'm sure that there were, but no where near the astronomical amount that we see and hear of today. The physician that I see today is also a great doctor. I've been seeing him for nearly 15 years. He has taken very good care of me over the years, and provided very good advice. He's always told me of the 'Bad' doctors that are out there, and always provides me with names of doctors that he feels are in 'good standing'. Sadly enough, he just told me last month that he will retire next April. He said that he is tired of the bureaucracy and red tape, so to say, in the medical field. He said that when he became a physician, it was because he wanted to help people and save lives, but he is growing tired of the medical community. We had often talked of the rising medical malpractice insurance that doctors are facing. He feels that it is completely wrong to 'cap' malpractice claims. (tort reform) Doctors also need to start looking at their collegues to 'weed out' the persons responsible for making frequent medical errors, thus raising doctors' malpractice insurance. Why should the public be punished further, (by tort reform and caps) for medical errors that are not in our control?
His wife was a victim of medical malpractice. She was his nurse down at his office, very down to earth, kind woman. She was having problems, went and had a mammogram done. Came out normal, the problems persisted. About 6 months later, he pulled her out of the facility that she was being seen at, and took her to another. By this time, she was very sickly. Here it turns out that the first mammogram showed full blown breast cancer. The doctor and the radiologist missed it. She had a double massectomy and most lymph nodes removed. Her and I wrote at that time, and she still remained optimistic that she would recover. She eventually died a few months later. He still gets upset with himself for not looking at that first mammogram with his own eyes.
This past Halloween I saw something quite odd, that really made me think. One of the neighbors, farther down the street, put tombstones all over their yard. They all had sayings on them. One said, 'here lies Joe, the doctor said that it was only heartburn'. You get the idea, a different line for each one. Our medical system is in need of a major overhaul. Think about this for a moment, everyone on this board at one time or another, has experienced malpractice, medical errors, etc.. Now if we've all experienced this, from all areas, what's it REALLY like out there? We all shouldn't have to research everything to death, to make sure our loved ones get the proper treatment, or to make sure that they're not harmed.
Anyway, on a lighter note, my son's pediatrician phoned today (as he has every week) to see if he's getting any relief from his tmjd yet. He's another good, kind, doctor. He has admitted to not knowing much about tmjd, (which I respect) but has offered as much help as he can give through testing. I have to run him to his maso. appt. today, hopefully, he feels a little better upon our return.
How's your back doing? I hope you're seeing some relief from your epidural. I've heard you talk of your tinnitus frequently. How has that been for you? I know that you first described it as 'jet engines roaring', and thereafter, said that it had tamed down. Still bearable?
Well, I have to go and catch a quick nap, (still feel lousy) I hope that you're having a good day. Also, started to read "Doctors-too harsh on them", quite a long one, I haven't had a chance to finish, but will read this later. Thanks,
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 05-20-2003).]
Cymy Sue
05-20-2003, 04:18 PM
Michael,
In America, Medical Practice is one of he most lucrative and protected professions a person can choose. Many go into this profession for this very reason and have no calling whatsoever to be healers.
I'm sure they do get frustrated with failures and the inability to heal every patient.
However, I've never seen "ONE" be so frustrated that he refused to take a hefty payment, regardless of the damage done to a patient. They may not always win, but they always get paid.
On the other hand, I have been reimbursed by auto mechanics several times if a problem continues after my car has been worked on. A little Ironic?
Cheryl,
You're absolutely right. We hear about Mal-practice suits, but removing a wrong body part is about all I've seen make it through the Legal System. I've mentioned before, I have 2 family members killed by negligence. We did nothing when my 10 year old brother died. We did find out later, by accident, there were no records that he had ever been in the Hospital or treated by the Doctor. It's been 28 years and we will never know the truth. When my Dad died, we decided to hire an Attorney just to find out what happened, before his records could dissappear. The mistake was obvious, and several Experts in the field agreed, but no one was willing to testify to the facts. We did not want to go to court, we just needed the truth. We got it and I guess that helps.
I am doing pretty good with my back, not great. I'll probably have the 2nd Epidural next week and hope I don't need the third.
My Tinnitis was about a 15 on a chart of 1-10 for a couple of years. Somedays, I don't have it at all now. Somedays, it's a 3-4. It's tolerable and much better than I ever thought possible.
I hope you feel better soon,
Cymy Sue
In America, Medical Practice is one of he most lucrative and protected professions a person can choose. Many go into this profession for this very reason and have no calling whatsoever to be healers.
I'm sure they do get frustrated with failures and the inability to heal every patient.
However, I've never seen "ONE" be so frustrated that he refused to take a hefty payment, regardless of the damage done to a patient. They may not always win, but they always get paid.
On the other hand, I have been reimbursed by auto mechanics several times if a problem continues after my car has been worked on. A little Ironic?
Cheryl,
You're absolutely right. We hear about Mal-practice suits, but removing a wrong body part is about all I've seen make it through the Legal System. I've mentioned before, I have 2 family members killed by negligence. We did nothing when my 10 year old brother died. We did find out later, by accident, there were no records that he had ever been in the Hospital or treated by the Doctor. It's been 28 years and we will never know the truth. When my Dad died, we decided to hire an Attorney just to find out what happened, before his records could dissappear. The mistake was obvious, and several Experts in the field agreed, but no one was willing to testify to the facts. We did not want to go to court, we just needed the truth. We got it and I guess that helps.
I am doing pretty good with my back, not great. I'll probably have the 2nd Epidural next week and hope I don't need the third.
My Tinnitis was about a 15 on a chart of 1-10 for a couple of years. Somedays, I don't have it at all now. Somedays, it's a 3-4. It's tolerable and much better than I ever thought possible.
I hope you feel better soon,
Cymy Sue
CherylLynn24
05-20-2003, 07:53 PM
Jennifer,
I've talked to him about ER doctors, and told him that they know a little about some things, but not alot about everything. From the things that this child has heard through all of this, (from doctors) I'm afraid that he's going to have a real problem with doctors when he's older. I keep enforcing the fact that there are "good" ones out there. Hopefully, one day soon, we'll find the one to offer him some help. Have a good night, Jennifer.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
I've talked to him about ER doctors, and told him that they know a little about some things, but not alot about everything. From the things that this child has heard through all of this, (from doctors) I'm afraid that he's going to have a real problem with doctors when he's older. I keep enforcing the fact that there are "good" ones out there. Hopefully, one day soon, we'll find the one to offer him some help. Have a good night, Jennifer.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
TiffanyAnn
05-20-2003, 09:42 PM
Michael:
I have no doubt that doctors do feel frustrated but if someone comes to them for treatment for something they have little knowledge or expertise in then they would be much more honest and caring to refer them to someone else who has more experience with that particular problem. It's perfectly natural that you would want to defend doctors being as how your brother in law is a doctor. You even said he was cynical and dismissive of his patients at one time. The point is this, I don't understand why anyone would get into the medical profession and then not believe their patients and be dismissive. That's the exact attitude that most people on this list are talking about. Your brother in law would not be the exception but rather the rule in the medical field. Doctors could not be half as frustrated with us and we are with them.
Tiffany
I have no doubt that doctors do feel frustrated but if someone comes to them for treatment for something they have little knowledge or expertise in then they would be much more honest and caring to refer them to someone else who has more experience with that particular problem. It's perfectly natural that you would want to defend doctors being as how your brother in law is a doctor. You even said he was cynical and dismissive of his patients at one time. The point is this, I don't understand why anyone would get into the medical profession and then not believe their patients and be dismissive. That's the exact attitude that most people on this list are talking about. Your brother in law would not be the exception but rather the rule in the medical field. Doctors could not be half as frustrated with us and we are with them.
Tiffany
CherylLynn24
05-20-2003, 10:56 PM
Michael,
I wanted to clear up a few things with you. Firstly, as for my "terrible misrepresentation to say [you] found people's misfortune galling", I would never intentionally attempt to misrepresent anyone for any reason. I had taken your words: “I find the virulent anti doctor tone in these pages a bit galling sometimes,” to mean that you are irritated by the words of frustration toward some doctors, by the people on this board. These people that you find their words “galling” are speaking of the misfortunate treatment they have experienced during their desire to obtain a life that exhibits pleasure in routine activities, or have had that kind of life stripped from them by a “clumsy” doctor. I fail to see where I misrepresented you, but I invite you to please make your point clearer, because I believe that I am not the only one that took your words to mean this context.
Secondly, the "virulent anti doctor tone in these pages," as you put it, is a byproduct of these people’s pain and suffering. It is not an anti-ALL-doctor tone, but an anti-INCOMPETENT-doctor tone.
If I may reference your last post, stating that your brother-in-law, the doctor, was “very cynical and dismissive of his patients but as he has gotten older he has changed a lot.” With all do respect, your brother-in-law once spoke the following words, as every doctor in practice today has…
“[…] I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug. I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
[…]
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick. […]” - Hippocratic Oath
How can someone make a promise to their patients to this magnitude, then be ‘cynical and dismissive’ of their patients, and be trustworthy and compassionate, and expecting of patience from their patients at the same time? To THESE doctors, that have chosen this field as a means to a lucrative lifestyle, I feel their patients are being robbed and deceived. These doctors have taken the ‘Hypocritical’ Oath. Not all doctors, but doctors that liberally display these flawed qualities, as your brother-in-law once had, I have little respect for. However, often times the doctor that has the least amount of experience in an area of specialty is the doctor that can prove to be the most helpful… when this doctor has the realization that he too is beneath the power of God, and that his patients are friends, and not a lifestyle enrichment opportunity, only then can he truly understand his patient’s woes. A truly caring doctor will be the doctor that knows when a medical problem is beyond his abilities. To some, this is unfortunately a learned response. To others, these traits are never obtainable due to their inherent superiority complex. To the best of doctors, these traits they were born with and their sole reason to pursue a career as a caregiver.
When you said, “they are under so much pressure to "do something" that they try things, usually in the interests of patients - and when that does not work or has other undesirable effects, they are then accused of being arrogant, using people as guinea pigs,” if not for the interest of the patient, then who’s interest is it for? Should treatment not always be in the best interest of the patient; if not, then the patient is not being ‘treated’, but being used to benefit his knowledge through experimentation on a ‘specimen’ or to simply benefit his wallet. When a doctor performs a procedure that is beyond his capability, it is beyond arrogance; it is negligence in its rawest form. Unfortunately, many of the people on this board learn what area of practice ‘should’ perform specific treatment and which doctors are capable of making specific diagnoses because their lives are now unsatisfactory due to entrusting their well-being in someone that clearly should not have made a choice for them. Yes, hind-sight truly is 20/20, and I am grateful for the people that have shared their dreadful experiences with me, so that I too can be educated by their misfortunes and become aware of what may happen to my son if I do not do my homework on every available treatment, PRIOR to its acceptance to allow it. I do listen to their cautions and I am very skeptical of many doctor’s abilities. Their words and stories have been beyond helpful in assisting me in finding help for my son. As you know, my son is 14 years old and should be enjoying a fun-filled, youthful life and not have be forced into having to “develop a sense of I'll show them” attitude, to make it through each day. His problems could have been avoided if his parents were not so naive to believe that orthodontics would surely benefit him and build confidence with a straight smile, as proclaimed by his prior dentist. Yes, I feel awful guilt for not researching the effects of braces and the commonality of associated TMJ problems… rest assured that I will do everything in my power to be certain that he receives the best available treatment to correct what this “clumsy” dentist did to him.
I know we may not see eye to eye on this issue of doctors and their ways, and I respect that you have your own views on this topic that differ from mine. In all honesty, I hope you don’t ever run across a doctor that changes your feelings on where many of their interests lie. As always, wishing you a pain-free evening.
Cheryl
I wanted to clear up a few things with you. Firstly, as for my "terrible misrepresentation to say [you] found people's misfortune galling", I would never intentionally attempt to misrepresent anyone for any reason. I had taken your words: “I find the virulent anti doctor tone in these pages a bit galling sometimes,” to mean that you are irritated by the words of frustration toward some doctors, by the people on this board. These people that you find their words “galling” are speaking of the misfortunate treatment they have experienced during their desire to obtain a life that exhibits pleasure in routine activities, or have had that kind of life stripped from them by a “clumsy” doctor. I fail to see where I misrepresented you, but I invite you to please make your point clearer, because I believe that I am not the only one that took your words to mean this context.
Secondly, the "virulent anti doctor tone in these pages," as you put it, is a byproduct of these people’s pain and suffering. It is not an anti-ALL-doctor tone, but an anti-INCOMPETENT-doctor tone.
If I may reference your last post, stating that your brother-in-law, the doctor, was “very cynical and dismissive of his patients but as he has gotten older he has changed a lot.” With all do respect, your brother-in-law once spoke the following words, as every doctor in practice today has…
“[…] I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug. I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
[…]
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick. […]” - Hippocratic Oath
How can someone make a promise to their patients to this magnitude, then be ‘cynical and dismissive’ of their patients, and be trustworthy and compassionate, and expecting of patience from their patients at the same time? To THESE doctors, that have chosen this field as a means to a lucrative lifestyle, I feel their patients are being robbed and deceived. These doctors have taken the ‘Hypocritical’ Oath. Not all doctors, but doctors that liberally display these flawed qualities, as your brother-in-law once had, I have little respect for. However, often times the doctor that has the least amount of experience in an area of specialty is the doctor that can prove to be the most helpful… when this doctor has the realization that he too is beneath the power of God, and that his patients are friends, and not a lifestyle enrichment opportunity, only then can he truly understand his patient’s woes. A truly caring doctor will be the doctor that knows when a medical problem is beyond his abilities. To some, this is unfortunately a learned response. To others, these traits are never obtainable due to their inherent superiority complex. To the best of doctors, these traits they were born with and their sole reason to pursue a career as a caregiver.
When you said, “they are under so much pressure to "do something" that they try things, usually in the interests of patients - and when that does not work or has other undesirable effects, they are then accused of being arrogant, using people as guinea pigs,” if not for the interest of the patient, then who’s interest is it for? Should treatment not always be in the best interest of the patient; if not, then the patient is not being ‘treated’, but being used to benefit his knowledge through experimentation on a ‘specimen’ or to simply benefit his wallet. When a doctor performs a procedure that is beyond his capability, it is beyond arrogance; it is negligence in its rawest form. Unfortunately, many of the people on this board learn what area of practice ‘should’ perform specific treatment and which doctors are capable of making specific diagnoses because their lives are now unsatisfactory due to entrusting their well-being in someone that clearly should not have made a choice for them. Yes, hind-sight truly is 20/20, and I am grateful for the people that have shared their dreadful experiences with me, so that I too can be educated by their misfortunes and become aware of what may happen to my son if I do not do my homework on every available treatment, PRIOR to its acceptance to allow it. I do listen to their cautions and I am very skeptical of many doctor’s abilities. Their words and stories have been beyond helpful in assisting me in finding help for my son. As you know, my son is 14 years old and should be enjoying a fun-filled, youthful life and not have be forced into having to “develop a sense of I'll show them” attitude, to make it through each day. His problems could have been avoided if his parents were not so naive to believe that orthodontics would surely benefit him and build confidence with a straight smile, as proclaimed by his prior dentist. Yes, I feel awful guilt for not researching the effects of braces and the commonality of associated TMJ problems… rest assured that I will do everything in my power to be certain that he receives the best available treatment to correct what this “clumsy” dentist did to him.
I know we may not see eye to eye on this issue of doctors and their ways, and I respect that you have your own views on this topic that differ from mine. In all honesty, I hope you don’t ever run across a doctor that changes your feelings on where many of their interests lie. As always, wishing you a pain-free evening.
Cheryl
N2golf
05-20-2003, 11:16 PM
It's SO hard to find a good, caring doctor! I don't trust hardly any of them anymore!
MichaelV
05-21-2003, 02:15 AM
Cheryl,
I have run across many doctors who fall into the categories you and others mention, believe me.
And you have to take my word for it when I say I have no interest whatsoever in defending my brother in law! I will spare you the history.
Despite doctors taking the hypocratic oath - something that has largely become a bit of an archaic procession as much as anything else - there are of course those, as I made clear in a previous post, who do it merely for the lucrative career it offers. The American Health system is indeed, fatally flawed in this respect. In this country, everyone gets free treatment. You can pay to see a specialist and there are rogues, but on the whole, the best specialists are the most highly paid - because GPs in the National Health service are the refererers. Consultants - by definition the "experts" in their field - work both in the National Health service and have private practice. They will treat you for free - but you will have to wait a while.
No doubt the difference in the systems is why so many more abuses occur in the States. I also think that the statistics someone put up about for every 100 malpractice cases, only 25 get to court, might have something to do with the fact that many of them are not malpractice. But I think that is another issue really.
It amazes me that my first post, which really only suggested it was an over reaction to suggest a formal complaint be made as a result of a well meaning but silly remark should stoke such a debate. Indeed, the fact that so many people so quickly advised Cheryl to take such action rather suggests that there is a reactionary approach in the States - and of course this may be borne of the animosity towards the financial emphasis in the American health system. But it is indicative of the original point I was making.
Since this debate began I have been accused of a) being uncaring b) having self interest (financial too in one case!) c) of defending family members etc etc merely for calling for a bit more restraint when it comes to doctors. Does that strike you as being a fair and reasonable approach to what was a pretty innocuous post? And it is pretty amazing when virtually all of my posts on this issue, articles I have written about the lack of understanding and cooperation amongst doctors and my suport for alternative therapies would suggest that in fact, I am NOT defending the interests of doctors
You take a deeply cynical view of doctors. So do I in fact! Although my own GP has been brilliant with me for a number of reasons. And I have discussed this whole issue at length with him as it happens and garnered some interesting insights from his side of the fence. But let us look at this a bit. You have recounted in great detail the terrible problems you have had. I can only presume that you have presented in doctor's offices with pain, depression, being at the end of your tether. Maybe even "desperate"? Dare I say even quite demanding for some help? Doctors have given you treatments that have not worked. They have given you treatments that have perhaps even made you worse.
- They may have done this believing they would work
- They may have done this not being sure if it would work but wanting to help you so were doing their best
- They may have done this for a number of well meaning reasons.
However, I do not believe that all of them did it because they could make money out of you which is, frankly, the impression one gets when readinng your posts on the issue in recent months. This is what you appear to believe in your heart.
Now I accept that some are ignorant - in respect of the fact that they really do not know as much about tmjd as they think or we would like - but often, they know as much as there is currently to "know". We all know what a perplexing and complicated condition it is. But I do recall getting a little bit of criticism (from you I think) for suggesting alternatives such as cranial osteopathy which is the only thing I know that has ever had any real effect on this condition and is practiced by people who have 7 years in depth anatomical training. And it is non invasive and gentle.
This site is about support, sharing, venting etc. But it is also about advice, discussion etc. Sometimes, it is very important for people to keep things in perspective and it is does not show a lack of caring, or understanding of how people feel, to try and counsel caution and reason and to step back for a moment. Indeed I think I made such a suggestion to Cheryl in another thread about her son. It is easy to be consumed by these issues and sometimes it helps to encourage people to take stock. It has a place.
I have spent a great deal of time giving an ear to people in depserate situations - voluntarily. If you have not heard of the Samaritans then look them up. Sometimes, even the most desperate of people need to be helped to step back and look at things rationally. When you are ill, in pain etc, sometimes rationality is the first victim. At other times you just let people express what they feel - no advice, no judgement, even when, in some cases, they are talking to you on the phone only because they have taken a huge overdose and want somone to talk to as they die. You then put the phone down when it goes quiet and hope someone finds them soon.
But that is not the purpose of this place and when people are desperate, they often need a sort of anchor, a restraint, to pull them back a bit. However, it appears that such an approach is unwelcome on this site and only gets you accusations of self interest etc etc. So I suspect I shall spend less time here.
All the best and hope you all get the help you need somewhere
Mike
I have run across many doctors who fall into the categories you and others mention, believe me.
And you have to take my word for it when I say I have no interest whatsoever in defending my brother in law! I will spare you the history.
Despite doctors taking the hypocratic oath - something that has largely become a bit of an archaic procession as much as anything else - there are of course those, as I made clear in a previous post, who do it merely for the lucrative career it offers. The American Health system is indeed, fatally flawed in this respect. In this country, everyone gets free treatment. You can pay to see a specialist and there are rogues, but on the whole, the best specialists are the most highly paid - because GPs in the National Health service are the refererers. Consultants - by definition the "experts" in their field - work both in the National Health service and have private practice. They will treat you for free - but you will have to wait a while.
No doubt the difference in the systems is why so many more abuses occur in the States. I also think that the statistics someone put up about for every 100 malpractice cases, only 25 get to court, might have something to do with the fact that many of them are not malpractice. But I think that is another issue really.
It amazes me that my first post, which really only suggested it was an over reaction to suggest a formal complaint be made as a result of a well meaning but silly remark should stoke such a debate. Indeed, the fact that so many people so quickly advised Cheryl to take such action rather suggests that there is a reactionary approach in the States - and of course this may be borne of the animosity towards the financial emphasis in the American health system. But it is indicative of the original point I was making.
Since this debate began I have been accused of a) being uncaring b) having self interest (financial too in one case!) c) of defending family members etc etc merely for calling for a bit more restraint when it comes to doctors. Does that strike you as being a fair and reasonable approach to what was a pretty innocuous post? And it is pretty amazing when virtually all of my posts on this issue, articles I have written about the lack of understanding and cooperation amongst doctors and my suport for alternative therapies would suggest that in fact, I am NOT defending the interests of doctors
You take a deeply cynical view of doctors. So do I in fact! Although my own GP has been brilliant with me for a number of reasons. And I have discussed this whole issue at length with him as it happens and garnered some interesting insights from his side of the fence. But let us look at this a bit. You have recounted in great detail the terrible problems you have had. I can only presume that you have presented in doctor's offices with pain, depression, being at the end of your tether. Maybe even "desperate"? Dare I say even quite demanding for some help? Doctors have given you treatments that have not worked. They have given you treatments that have perhaps even made you worse.
- They may have done this believing they would work
- They may have done this not being sure if it would work but wanting to help you so were doing their best
- They may have done this for a number of well meaning reasons.
However, I do not believe that all of them did it because they could make money out of you which is, frankly, the impression one gets when readinng your posts on the issue in recent months. This is what you appear to believe in your heart.
Now I accept that some are ignorant - in respect of the fact that they really do not know as much about tmjd as they think or we would like - but often, they know as much as there is currently to "know". We all know what a perplexing and complicated condition it is. But I do recall getting a little bit of criticism (from you I think) for suggesting alternatives such as cranial osteopathy which is the only thing I know that has ever had any real effect on this condition and is practiced by people who have 7 years in depth anatomical training. And it is non invasive and gentle.
This site is about support, sharing, venting etc. But it is also about advice, discussion etc. Sometimes, it is very important for people to keep things in perspective and it is does not show a lack of caring, or understanding of how people feel, to try and counsel caution and reason and to step back for a moment. Indeed I think I made such a suggestion to Cheryl in another thread about her son. It is easy to be consumed by these issues and sometimes it helps to encourage people to take stock. It has a place.
I have spent a great deal of time giving an ear to people in depserate situations - voluntarily. If you have not heard of the Samaritans then look them up. Sometimes, even the most desperate of people need to be helped to step back and look at things rationally. When you are ill, in pain etc, sometimes rationality is the first victim. At other times you just let people express what they feel - no advice, no judgement, even when, in some cases, they are talking to you on the phone only because they have taken a huge overdose and want somone to talk to as they die. You then put the phone down when it goes quiet and hope someone finds them soon.
But that is not the purpose of this place and when people are desperate, they often need a sort of anchor, a restraint, to pull them back a bit. However, it appears that such an approach is unwelcome on this site and only gets you accusations of self interest etc etc. So I suspect I shall spend less time here.
All the best and hope you all get the help you need somewhere
Mike
OHJELJ
05-21-2003, 09:49 AM
Hey Cheryl...wow, isn't it amazing how a bad experience at a mediocre hospital can raise so many flags for people? Yikes! I'm sorry things went so poorly there, but I do have to say, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed so to speak ...if you have coverage and something like this happens again, try Fairview. Their ER is busier, but the nurses are WONDERFUL and they tend to relay info to the doctors more than at Lakewood.
One of the biggest problems that I've heard about first hand from my brother is that the practices that run the ERs want the docs to deal with patients in a certain timeframe. In most cases, the doctors don't really have enough time to spend with patients to get a true feel of them as a person. They hear the problems and have to make a diagnosis based upon what you tell them or what the test results display. If they can't then they either admit you or send you home to follow up with your regular doctor.
The most disappointing factor I feel in this situation is that a lot of people in Lakewood in particular, use the ER as a doctor's office. It's easier to walk in there than to make an appointment elsewhere or they don't have insurance. Either way, it tends to take time away from those patients like Mike who really need help. I know that Dr. Nelson (the Attending in the ER on nights I believe) was very attentive to me, but they still gave me Morphine when I said I was allergic to it! So, it takes a team to take care of a patient. No matter how good or bad a doc is, if the nurses etc...aren't any good, the orders don't get followed and the support isn't there.
In a nutshell, they are over-worked there and I think have gotten burnt at times. What you see on ER is true minus the sex scenes in the broom closets ;)
There are all types of problems happening all at once and the best you can hope for is to have someone who can listen and not make judgements based upon subjective things. My brother has said that he doesn't ever say anything personal other than asking questions pertinent to the history of the patient. This way he remains detached enough to make a correct diagnosis and doesn't say 'the wrong thing'. Don't get me wrong, he's a very sympathetic person and when he has a bad night in the ER, he's been known to hang out in the NICU to hold babies to put things in perspective.
Sorry, I'll get off my tangent now, but I just want you and Mike to know, that you aren't the first nor will you be the last to be told something stupid from that hospital. They don't think before they speak...but everyone does that from time to time...
I hope that you can find a doc that redeems the situation soon! I talked to my PT and she suggested Dr. Basel in Middleburg Heights? He's a regular dentist too, so he can follow up with treatment like cleanings etc...but she said he listens more than any doctor she's ever met...
Hope the last tidbit helps! Stay warm and hope you guys are recovered from the 'bug'!
Jennifer
[This message has been edited by OHJELJ (edited 05-21-2003).]
One of the biggest problems that I've heard about first hand from my brother is that the practices that run the ERs want the docs to deal with patients in a certain timeframe. In most cases, the doctors don't really have enough time to spend with patients to get a true feel of them as a person. They hear the problems and have to make a diagnosis based upon what you tell them or what the test results display. If they can't then they either admit you or send you home to follow up with your regular doctor.
The most disappointing factor I feel in this situation is that a lot of people in Lakewood in particular, use the ER as a doctor's office. It's easier to walk in there than to make an appointment elsewhere or they don't have insurance. Either way, it tends to take time away from those patients like Mike who really need help. I know that Dr. Nelson (the Attending in the ER on nights I believe) was very attentive to me, but they still gave me Morphine when I said I was allergic to it! So, it takes a team to take care of a patient. No matter how good or bad a doc is, if the nurses etc...aren't any good, the orders don't get followed and the support isn't there.
In a nutshell, they are over-worked there and I think have gotten burnt at times. What you see on ER is true minus the sex scenes in the broom closets ;)
There are all types of problems happening all at once and the best you can hope for is to have someone who can listen and not make judgements based upon subjective things. My brother has said that he doesn't ever say anything personal other than asking questions pertinent to the history of the patient. This way he remains detached enough to make a correct diagnosis and doesn't say 'the wrong thing'. Don't get me wrong, he's a very sympathetic person and when he has a bad night in the ER, he's been known to hang out in the NICU to hold babies to put things in perspective.
Sorry, I'll get off my tangent now, but I just want you and Mike to know, that you aren't the first nor will you be the last to be told something stupid from that hospital. They don't think before they speak...but everyone does that from time to time...
I hope that you can find a doc that redeems the situation soon! I talked to my PT and she suggested Dr. Basel in Middleburg Heights? He's a regular dentist too, so he can follow up with treatment like cleanings etc...but she said he listens more than any doctor she's ever met...
Hope the last tidbit helps! Stay warm and hope you guys are recovered from the 'bug'!
Jennifer
[This message has been edited by OHJELJ (edited 05-21-2003).]
CherylLynn24
05-21-2003, 10:32 AM
Jennifer,
Thanks for the reply. He's nearly back to himself, but it's taking longer for me. This is one nasty bug going around! I agree with what you say of ER's. People do use them as 'regular doctors'. That makes it bad. I would've taken him to his pediatrician, but when he wheezes, it's usually at night when the doctor isn't in. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
I do have to start looking into getting him a new dentist.(as well as myself) I don't feel comfortable going to the 'old' one anymore. He was due for a cleaning at the begining of the month, but he's had so much trouble that I didn't think it was in his best interest to have his mouth open for that long, at this time. I assume that I'll have to find someone who at least, understands tmjd, so that they have an idea of how to deal with him. (cleanings, etc.)I want to check further into 'Pankey' dentists, mentioned by Cymy Sue.
So, how are those headaches of yours? Any better? Did you find out anything from your hospital stay?
I took him to masso. yesterday, and she worked on him a little differently this time. His pain level came down from an 8 to a 5!!! It lasted most of the evening, he even said that his muscles in his head weren't burning quite as badly. This morning it was pretty much the 'norm', but that's the longest period of relief that he's experienced so far. We'll see how it goes later.
Let me know how you're doing, and have a nice afternoon. :)
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
Thanks for the reply. He's nearly back to himself, but it's taking longer for me. This is one nasty bug going around! I agree with what you say of ER's. People do use them as 'regular doctors'. That makes it bad. I would've taken him to his pediatrician, but when he wheezes, it's usually at night when the doctor isn't in. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
I do have to start looking into getting him a new dentist.(as well as myself) I don't feel comfortable going to the 'old' one anymore. He was due for a cleaning at the begining of the month, but he's had so much trouble that I didn't think it was in his best interest to have his mouth open for that long, at this time. I assume that I'll have to find someone who at least, understands tmjd, so that they have an idea of how to deal with him. (cleanings, etc.)I want to check further into 'Pankey' dentists, mentioned by Cymy Sue.
So, how are those headaches of yours? Any better? Did you find out anything from your hospital stay?
I took him to masso. yesterday, and she worked on him a little differently this time. His pain level came down from an 8 to a 5!!! It lasted most of the evening, he even said that his muscles in his head weren't burning quite as badly. This morning it was pretty much the 'norm', but that's the longest period of relief that he's experienced so far. We'll see how it goes later.
Let me know how you're doing, and have a nice afternoon. :)
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
CherylLynn24
05-21-2003, 02:20 PM
Mike,
I've never given you criticism over 'alternate therapies'. (nor anyone else, for that matter) I've always been very appreciative of whatever anyone, including you, Mike, can offer me. If you go back and read the 'topic starter' CherylLynn...your son, posted by you, I thanked you for your advice on cranial osteopathy, and have researched it. As a matter of fact, yesterday at masso. they tried working with the small bones of his head, instead of strictly muscles, and it's been the most relief that he's experienced thus far.
As for our differences of opinion, that's all that it is, but as far as advice and opinions, I've always valued everyone's, including yours.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 05-21-2003).]
I've never given you criticism over 'alternate therapies'. (nor anyone else, for that matter) I've always been very appreciative of whatever anyone, including you, Mike, can offer me. If you go back and read the 'topic starter' CherylLynn...your son, posted by you, I thanked you for your advice on cranial osteopathy, and have researched it. As a matter of fact, yesterday at masso. they tried working with the small bones of his head, instead of strictly muscles, and it's been the most relief that he's experienced thus far.
As for our differences of opinion, that's all that it is, but as far as advice and opinions, I've always valued everyone's, including yours.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 05-21-2003).]
MichaelV
05-21-2003, 02:39 PM
Cheryl.
I am sorry but I have just realised that in my last post, I thought I was replying to to Cymy Sue...so that was my error. I read a long post as being from her, I obviously got confused.
AS for Mike getting some relief with manipulation of his cranial bones - I am pleased (but not surprised :)) to hear it
[This message has been edited by MichaelV (edited 05-21-2003).]
I am sorry but I have just realised that in my last post, I thought I was replying to to Cymy Sue...so that was my error. I read a long post as being from her, I obviously got confused.
AS for Mike getting some relief with manipulation of his cranial bones - I am pleased (but not surprised :)) to hear it
[This message has been edited by MichaelV (edited 05-21-2003).]
Carina
05-21-2003, 06:39 PM
A lot of doctors do nto know how it is to be a kid but yet be in pain a long part of teir lives. Especially since we kids have our whole live in front of us and that we know that we may have to live the rest of our lives in pain. My mom and I know how you feel. I am 16 and always had some medical problem ever since I can remember, and been in nonstop pain for over the last 7 years. They just do not understand and will never understand. But there are some out there somewhere, like the ones I have.
~*Carina*~
~*Carina*~
CherylLynn24
05-21-2003, 06:45 PM
Carina,
I'm sorry to hear that you've been hurting for so long. Us parents know and understand how you kids feel. Hopefully, we'll find all of you help soon, so that you can all be kids again! :) Are you feeling any better?
Cheryl
I'm sorry to hear that you've been hurting for so long. Us parents know and understand how you kids feel. Hopefully, we'll find all of you help soon, so that you can all be kids again! :) Are you feeling any better?
Cheryl
Cymy Sue
05-21-2003, 07:33 PM
Michael,
To be perfectly clear. I have directed all of my posts to Cheryl, except a short paragraph to you agreeing that the Medical Profession is lucrative and tends to draw unqualified people. I also mentioned this debate had been ongoing, as you did.
I have not made any comment on your first reply or any other that you have made in this thread. I have not accused you or anyone else involved in this thread of anything.
I have not advised anyone to take any action regarding anything. I stated "I" write letters when I see an injustice.
Are we all now unconfused ?
If you have a comment to make to any of "MY" posts, please do so.
Cymy Sue
To be perfectly clear. I have directed all of my posts to Cheryl, except a short paragraph to you agreeing that the Medical Profession is lucrative and tends to draw unqualified people. I also mentioned this debate had been ongoing, as you did.
I have not made any comment on your first reply or any other that you have made in this thread. I have not accused you or anyone else involved in this thread of anything.
I have not advised anyone to take any action regarding anything. I stated "I" write letters when I see an injustice.
Are we all now unconfused ?
If you have a comment to make to any of "MY" posts, please do so.
Cymy Sue
Cymy Sue
05-21-2003, 09:47 PM
Cheryl,
I am in total agreement with everything you have written here. It appears there has been some confusion as to who wrote what & I have been given credit for one of your posts or part of it. That's OK with me, I just wanted to clear this "confusion" up. This was your debate, I've already had mine.
Now to address some of the post that looks like was directed at me.
To make presumptions about someone else's life is ridiculous when you do not have a clue what has happened to them.
To assume that you know what is in another person's heart is is a little arrogant unless you're psychic.
Money is not an issue for me, my insurance has covered the majority of my treatments, bad or good. There are many people here who pay out of pocket and they can not afford to continue paying for Bad Doctors and Bad Treatments.
I don't believe I have criticized any treatment presented here, however, I am the first to say "What works for one does not work for another"
And my last thought on this subject, I for one do not need a Self-Appointed Counselor or Monitor regarding my feelings and posts, nor do I believe anyone else on this board does. We are all adults and post within the guidelines, our trials and tribulations regarding our conditions. We are allowed to voice any opinion we so choose as long as we follow the rules.
We are allowed to disagree within the rules and that is all the restraint that I believe most of us need.
If anyone else has any thoughts on this, they are welcome.
I hope you & Mike are feeling better and it does appear you got flogged in part of the post due to some bad feelings toward me. Maybe this will clear up which part was directed at you and which to me.
Cymy Sue
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-21-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-22-2003).]
I am in total agreement with everything you have written here. It appears there has been some confusion as to who wrote what & I have been given credit for one of your posts or part of it. That's OK with me, I just wanted to clear this "confusion" up. This was your debate, I've already had mine.
Now to address some of the post that looks like was directed at me.
To make presumptions about someone else's life is ridiculous when you do not have a clue what has happened to them.
To assume that you know what is in another person's heart is is a little arrogant unless you're psychic.
Money is not an issue for me, my insurance has covered the majority of my treatments, bad or good. There are many people here who pay out of pocket and they can not afford to continue paying for Bad Doctors and Bad Treatments.
I don't believe I have criticized any treatment presented here, however, I am the first to say "What works for one does not work for another"
And my last thought on this subject, I for one do not need a Self-Appointed Counselor or Monitor regarding my feelings and posts, nor do I believe anyone else on this board does. We are all adults and post within the guidelines, our trials and tribulations regarding our conditions. We are allowed to voice any opinion we so choose as long as we follow the rules.
We are allowed to disagree within the rules and that is all the restraint that I believe most of us need.
If anyone else has any thoughts on this, they are welcome.
I hope you & Mike are feeling better and it does appear you got flogged in part of the post due to some bad feelings toward me. Maybe this will clear up which part was directed at you and which to me.
Cymy Sue
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-21-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-22-2003).]
CherylLynn24
05-21-2003, 11:22 PM
Cymy Sue,
I too, was somewhat confused by that post. It appeared that half was directed at me, and half, at you. I've finished reading the thread, "Doctors...A Little Harsh on Them"...(quite lengthy) and I'm in total agreement with all that you've said. As a matter of fact, I couldn't have said it better myself.
We're both feeling better, thanks for asking. I hope that all is well with you.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 05-21-2003).]
I too, was somewhat confused by that post. It appeared that half was directed at me, and half, at you. I've finished reading the thread, "Doctors...A Little Harsh on Them"...(quite lengthy) and I'm in total agreement with all that you've said. As a matter of fact, I couldn't have said it better myself.
We're both feeling better, thanks for asking. I hope that all is well with you.
Cheryl
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 05-21-2003).]
MichaelV
05-22-2003, 03:08 AM
Cheryl and Sue
I merely respond to what I have read. In the end it is not that relevant who said it. But to help, I read a post from Cheryl as being from Sue. As a result, I not only referred to things in the actual post, but things we had discussed in the past. The references to being accused of self interest etc were not specific to a person who made them, just an observation that they had been made. There, that should clear it up.
There is little need for me to be psychic Sue. You have listed in great detail all the things that have happened to you, your views on doctors and what they have tried to do for you. So I fail to see how presumptions have been made.
That there is a deep cynicism for doctors on this board is pretty obvious. And as I have repeatedly said, is probably "justified" in many cases, but sometimes it really does cloud the issue.
The central issue I think for me, is that twice now, when trying to bring some alternate point of view on the issue of doctors, there has been a sort of collective intake of breath and an indignant "harrumph" that I do not worship at the altar of doctor bashing.
Further, Sue, you appear to take some offence at my "self appointment" as a "counsellor"...I presume this is a reference to me talking about keeping a perspective. Well, I happen to believe that a little bit of perspective is as good a way of helping someone with a problem as is the general approach here - which is to offer the sufferer sympathy (which by definition, all of us here do anyway surely?).
However, the thinly veiled hostility towards anyone daring to bring a more "practical" approach to assistance is telling.
Cheryl, I hope your son continues to get relief from the cranial maipulation. I have thought from the beginning that this would be his best hope and is why I tried to encourage you to stop going from doctor to doctor to doctor. He is young and this treatment has a very high chance of success as a result. If youfind a proper, qualified cranial osteopath - see him/her.
I have no desire to arguing with either of you. And I am sure this sentiment is reciprocated.
I think this has to be my last message on this or any other issue really.
Cheers
I merely respond to what I have read. In the end it is not that relevant who said it. But to help, I read a post from Cheryl as being from Sue. As a result, I not only referred to things in the actual post, but things we had discussed in the past. The references to being accused of self interest etc were not specific to a person who made them, just an observation that they had been made. There, that should clear it up.
There is little need for me to be psychic Sue. You have listed in great detail all the things that have happened to you, your views on doctors and what they have tried to do for you. So I fail to see how presumptions have been made.
That there is a deep cynicism for doctors on this board is pretty obvious. And as I have repeatedly said, is probably "justified" in many cases, but sometimes it really does cloud the issue.
The central issue I think for me, is that twice now, when trying to bring some alternate point of view on the issue of doctors, there has been a sort of collective intake of breath and an indignant "harrumph" that I do not worship at the altar of doctor bashing.
Further, Sue, you appear to take some offence at my "self appointment" as a "counsellor"...I presume this is a reference to me talking about keeping a perspective. Well, I happen to believe that a little bit of perspective is as good a way of helping someone with a problem as is the general approach here - which is to offer the sufferer sympathy (which by definition, all of us here do anyway surely?).
However, the thinly veiled hostility towards anyone daring to bring a more "practical" approach to assistance is telling.
Cheryl, I hope your son continues to get relief from the cranial maipulation. I have thought from the beginning that this would be his best hope and is why I tried to encourage you to stop going from doctor to doctor to doctor. He is young and this treatment has a very high chance of success as a result. If youfind a proper, qualified cranial osteopath - see him/her.
I have no desire to arguing with either of you. And I am sure this sentiment is reciprocated.
I think this has to be my last message on this or any other issue really.
Cheers