littlelulu1937
08-23-2003, 03:48 PM
Vitamins/Supplements?
Three days ago I had my 66th Birthday. Except for a very short time when I took calcium pills many years ago after broken wrist surgery as the result of a serious accident (& my orthopedist's recommendation, though I don't think I'd be at a different place if I hadn't), I've never taken ANY vitamins nor minerals nor supplements, nor has it ever occurred to me do do so. I've relied on a good diet alone to get me where I am today. My husband, who turned 75 in May & still is a pretty good downhill skier, did start taking a one-a-day multi-vitamin, about two years ago (on the advice of his sister who has spent thousands & thousands of dollars over the years I've known her on vitamins & supplements & naturopaths), but frankly I didn't notice any difference in his health, which has always been fine. BTW, we spent the day following my birthday laying 40 pound stepping stones for a new garden pathway, this after I (alone) spent several days turning cement-type soil, which hadn't been touched in over 30 years, by hand tools (shovel & pick-axe) for the pathway. Not an ache or pain afterward.
I guess I'm just in awe that people seem to need (or believe they need) so many "add-ons" to function. Why is this?
Three days ago I had my 66th Birthday. Except for a very short time when I took calcium pills many years ago after broken wrist surgery as the result of a serious accident (& my orthopedist's recommendation, though I don't think I'd be at a different place if I hadn't), I've never taken ANY vitamins nor minerals nor supplements, nor has it ever occurred to me do do so. I've relied on a good diet alone to get me where I am today. My husband, who turned 75 in May & still is a pretty good downhill skier, did start taking a one-a-day multi-vitamin, about two years ago (on the advice of his sister who has spent thousands & thousands of dollars over the years I've known her on vitamins & supplements & naturopaths), but frankly I didn't notice any difference in his health, which has always been fine. BTW, we spent the day following my birthday laying 40 pound stepping stones for a new garden pathway, this after I (alone) spent several days turning cement-type soil, which hadn't been touched in over 30 years, by hand tools (shovel & pick-axe) for the pathway. Not an ache or pain afterward.
I guess I'm just in awe that people seem to need (or believe they need) so many "add-ons" to function. Why is this?
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lidia09
08-23-2003, 05:41 PM
Hi Little Lulu
http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/birthday.gif I enjoyed reading your post & think lots of people could learn from you & your husband. Reckon the magic words you said were 'good diet'. Not so many people have that these days, probably mainly due to the fast food industry & convenience foods. I know quite a few people who never eat any fruit & veg.
Here in the UK, obesity is rapidly on the increase both in kids & adults. We have tv programmes about 'fat camps', '18-30 stone holidays' & all these slimming clubs, diet magazines, Atkins diet etc. Nobody seems to know what a 'good diet' is anymore but are happy to pay out lots of money for fancy food supplements, meal replacements, vitamins, minerals etc. & information on faddy diets.
I would be interested & I'm sure others would be too, if you could post again & tell us what your diet consists of.
Thanks & best wishes.
Lidia :)
http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/birthday.gif I enjoyed reading your post & think lots of people could learn from you & your husband. Reckon the magic words you said were 'good diet'. Not so many people have that these days, probably mainly due to the fast food industry & convenience foods. I know quite a few people who never eat any fruit & veg.
Here in the UK, obesity is rapidly on the increase both in kids & adults. We have tv programmes about 'fat camps', '18-30 stone holidays' & all these slimming clubs, diet magazines, Atkins diet etc. Nobody seems to know what a 'good diet' is anymore but are happy to pay out lots of money for fancy food supplements, meal replacements, vitamins, minerals etc. & information on faddy diets.
I would be interested & I'm sure others would be too, if you could post again & tell us what your diet consists of.
Thanks & best wishes.
Lidia :)
mlgable
08-23-2003, 09:55 PM
You should always take a multivitamin unless you are sure you eat a super healthy diet as many of the preprocessed foods have some of their natural vitamins stripped. A good antioxidant supplement is also recommended to keep your immune system healthy so that you don't catch things like colds or the flu etc. If you husband isn't feeling any better with the vitamin he takes then he should try another brand till he finds one that does keep him feeling in tip top shape. Since you mentioned being a woman unless you are on HRT you need to be taking a calacium supplement to help keep your bones healthy and prevent osteoporosis.
littlelulu1937
08-24-2003, 06:26 AM
Thanks. My bones are in extremely good condition according to my physician. Looks like my daily quart of milk since childhood, plus my almost daily 3 to 6 mile walks back & forth to work for 40 years finally paid off.
My diet is VERY heavy in fresh fruit (mangos and melons are particular favorites) & juices (I can easily drink a quart of orange juice a day); somewhat less so fresh vegetables, but still eat a lot of those. I eat some meat, but prefer chicken breast in a myriad of dishes or fancy chicken sausages, broiled. Love ethnic foods, particularly Indian & Thai curries. so we eat out a couple of times a week. Desserts are usually fresh fruit pies (made a fresh peach & wild blackberry combo this morning) or "crisps", most often apple. Chocolate Truffles are always good too. Naturally, I eat from other food groups, but little along processed food lines. I don't eat "organic" either (unless given to us by neighborhood gardeners) as I find it too expensive, & when I've sampled those purveyors' wares at farmer's markets (we go at least once a week), frankly, the taste, has rarely been there for me. Oh, well, I grew up with DDT. I've never smoked; my cocktail of choice is fresh strawberry dacquiris (12 oz. fresh strawberries, 2 oz. lt. rum, 1 oz. fresh lime juice, 1 to 2 teaspoons sugar, 4 ice cubes, then whirrr in a blender).
So that's my boring story.
I guess my immune system is up to speed as I haven't had a cold in eight years, though I did get a case of the flu once, but that was back in 1957 (man, that was 46 years ago!) Except for my dentist writing an antibotic prescription prior to some gum surgery several years ago, I've never ever had a drug store prescription filled by me or on my behalf since I was 10 years old (penicillin/pneumonia, circa 1947). So you see, neither the traditional medical community nor the drug companies nor alternative medicine, not to mention the vitamin/supplement cartel, has found me to be a very profitable source of revenue, at least to this point in my life.
My diet is VERY heavy in fresh fruit (mangos and melons are particular favorites) & juices (I can easily drink a quart of orange juice a day); somewhat less so fresh vegetables, but still eat a lot of those. I eat some meat, but prefer chicken breast in a myriad of dishes or fancy chicken sausages, broiled. Love ethnic foods, particularly Indian & Thai curries. so we eat out a couple of times a week. Desserts are usually fresh fruit pies (made a fresh peach & wild blackberry combo this morning) or "crisps", most often apple. Chocolate Truffles are always good too. Naturally, I eat from other food groups, but little along processed food lines. I don't eat "organic" either (unless given to us by neighborhood gardeners) as I find it too expensive, & when I've sampled those purveyors' wares at farmer's markets (we go at least once a week), frankly, the taste, has rarely been there for me. Oh, well, I grew up with DDT. I've never smoked; my cocktail of choice is fresh strawberry dacquiris (12 oz. fresh strawberries, 2 oz. lt. rum, 1 oz. fresh lime juice, 1 to 2 teaspoons sugar, 4 ice cubes, then whirrr in a blender).
So that's my boring story.
I guess my immune system is up to speed as I haven't had a cold in eight years, though I did get a case of the flu once, but that was back in 1957 (man, that was 46 years ago!) Except for my dentist writing an antibotic prescription prior to some gum surgery several years ago, I've never ever had a drug store prescription filled by me or on my behalf since I was 10 years old (penicillin/pneumonia, circa 1947). So you see, neither the traditional medical community nor the drug companies nor alternative medicine, not to mention the vitamin/supplement cartel, has found me to be a very profitable source of revenue, at least to this point in my life.
ARIZONA73
08-24-2003, 09:44 PM
In a sense, I think we'd all be better off if only we can turn back the clock and return to that simpler, healthier lifestyle which was reminiscent of a bygone era. But unfortunately, growing numbers of people are no longer living in Leave it to Beaver land. Too bad, because there was a time when people's lifestyles were far healthier than they are now. There was always a good home cooked meal at the end of the day which included fresh fruits and vegetable which were of a higher nutritional value than they are today. People got a lot more fresh air and exercise, the air was cleaner, and their lives much less stressful. Nowadays, both parents work just to make ends meet. People grab a quick bite here and there, and are always on the run and in too big a hurry. They sit for hours in bumper to bumper traffic, breath filthy air, and are exhausted at the end of the day. And this is supposed to be progress? So yes, considering the hectic and stressful lifestyle that so many people are living these days, I believe that taking supplements is far more advisable now than it has ever been.
lidia09
08-25-2003, 11:43 AM
Gosh I'd hate so much to live like that Arizona. I work full-time which is a 35 hour week & I get 21 days annual leave plus 10 public holidays. It takes me 15 minutes to get to work & I'm not worn out by the end of the day - my job ain't that important to me. The air is pretty clean here too.
My diet is similar to littlelulu's except I eat lots of veg. Doesn't take long to prepare a meal which doesn't consist of processed food with everything added or taken away. Maybe we're a bit old-fashioned here but I wouldn't swap it for the kind of lifestyle you're describing. Sure we have dirty big cities here too but nobody forces you to live in them do they?
Like lulu, I rarely get a cold & had the flu once in my life, when I lived in Australia. I once got cancer & by the time they cut it out, it was dying off all by itself :D
Now that's what I call a good immune system lol
Seriously though, I think it's sad to hear of folks who live the way you describe. Having lost a friend at the age of 45 just a couple of weeks ago, my philosophy is that I'm here for a good time, not for a long time. :)
Lidia :)
My diet is similar to littlelulu's except I eat lots of veg. Doesn't take long to prepare a meal which doesn't consist of processed food with everything added or taken away. Maybe we're a bit old-fashioned here but I wouldn't swap it for the kind of lifestyle you're describing. Sure we have dirty big cities here too but nobody forces you to live in them do they?
Like lulu, I rarely get a cold & had the flu once in my life, when I lived in Australia. I once got cancer & by the time they cut it out, it was dying off all by itself :D
Now that's what I call a good immune system lol
Seriously though, I think it's sad to hear of folks who live the way you describe. Having lost a friend at the age of 45 just a couple of weeks ago, my philosophy is that I'm here for a good time, not for a long time. :)
Lidia :)
jerimee
08-26-2003, 01:54 PM
after lots of searching i believe that i too can recieve all the vitamins i need from eating a "healthy" diet. however many reports indicate that many of the fruits and vegetables we get today at the grocery store are poor in nutrients because of the soil being depleted from heavy use over the years. but i also believe our bodies have become adjusted to these changes. if we hadnt become adjusted how could people liive as well as we do today. i am just disappointed my parents let me take drugs the doctors had prescribed to me in the past, i now take nothing prescription or vitamin.
shadepra
08-26-2003, 03:41 PM
I've started taking a natural "green supplement", which contains barley, wheat, and alfalfa grasses, along with various sea greens. This supplement is a whole food which contains all the nutrients our bodies need in a form that the body recognizes (real food, as opposed to a chemical, man-made vitamin pill). I have more energy now, and feel confident that this supplement gives me any nutrients that may be missing from my regular diet (which isn't always that great).
littlelulu1937
08-26-2003, 04:16 PM
I don't think "nutrients" in the soil transfer in any way to the product of the plant itself. If you have depleted soil, you won't get a "good crop", but whatever crop you do get will have essentially the same nutients as that which grows in good soil. Works the same for taste--I've tried enough certified organic fruits that are totally blah, though grown in rich soil, to make me sure of this one.
ARIZONA73
08-26-2003, 09:23 PM
Nutritionally, many of the crops grown today are inferior to what they were 50 years ago, or even 25 years ago.
littlelulu1937
08-26-2003, 10:27 PM
Arizona: Why would that be?
ARIZONA73
08-26-2003, 11:08 PM
I heard a doctor on the radio talking about this recently, and he provided one interesting example. He said that an orange 50 years ago provided as much as 250mg of vitamin C. Today, however, that orange would provide only as much as 30-50mg vitamin C.
Were you aware that the Journal of the American Medical Association now recommends that all patients, even healthy ones, should take vitamin and mineral supplements?
[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 09-10-2003).]
Were you aware that the Journal of the American Medical Association now recommends that all patients, even healthy ones, should take vitamin and mineral supplements?
[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 09-10-2003).]
stabmaster
08-27-2003, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by littlelulu1937:
I don't think "nutrients" in the soil transfer in any way to the product of the plant itself.
Reference (http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/selen.html#food)
quote: "The amount of selenium in soil, which varies by region, determines the amount of selenium in the plant foods that are grown in that soil."
I don't think "nutrients" in the soil transfer in any way to the product of the plant itself.
Reference (http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/selen.html#food)
quote: "The amount of selenium in soil, which varies by region, determines the amount of selenium in the plant foods that are grown in that soil."
littlelulu1937
08-27-2003, 04:38 AM
Interesting, but I have no plans to add outside vitamins or supplements to my diet.
I searched for the Journal of The American Medical Association current stance on taking vitamin supplements & found the following from the Jornal (JAMA)
"Fruits & vegetables are the main dietary source of many vitamins and health experts have long recommended at least five daily servings. A recent survey showed that only 20% to 30% of the population actually meets this goal". (Fairfield & Fletcher,JAMA, 287).
It would appear to me from this statement that the fact that one multi-vitamin-a-day is now being recommended by the AMA/doctors has more to do with the abysmally low percentage of people meeting the 5 servings goal (well-if-we-can't-get-them-to-eat-right-the-best-we-can-do-is-suggest-a supplement) than a real need for a supplement if everyone was in that 20% to 30% category.
I searched for the Journal of The American Medical Association current stance on taking vitamin supplements & found the following from the Jornal (JAMA)
"Fruits & vegetables are the main dietary source of many vitamins and health experts have long recommended at least five daily servings. A recent survey showed that only 20% to 30% of the population actually meets this goal". (Fairfield & Fletcher,JAMA, 287).
It would appear to me from this statement that the fact that one multi-vitamin-a-day is now being recommended by the AMA/doctors has more to do with the abysmally low percentage of people meeting the 5 servings goal (well-if-we-can't-get-them-to-eat-right-the-best-we-can-do-is-suggest-a supplement) than a real need for a supplement if everyone was in that 20% to 30% category.
shadepra
08-27-2003, 02:41 PM
Another problem is that fruits and vegetables purchased from grocery stores are usually picked long before they are ripe, then shipped all over the US, or the world (which can take weeks before they finally make it to the store). If they aren't yet ripe at that point, then they will be gassed to make them ripen right before they go onto the shelves.
Produce that is allowed to ripen naturally on the plant generally has considerably more nutrients than when picked green. I know for certain that it has much more flavor, since I have grown fruits and vegetables myself, allowing them to ripen on the vines, and there is a tremendous difference in flavor. It also makes sense that the better the quality of the soil (more nutrients in the soil), then the more nutrients that will be in the vegetables. Plants take up nutrients from the soil, and these get passed into the fruit. Conventionally grown produce contains chemical nutrients from man-made fertilizers (as well as pesticides), from soil that has been depleted of natural nutrients and organisms (as opposed to organically grown produce, which contains naturally occuring nutrients from the soil).
My conclusion is that even if we do manage to eat the 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, there is a very good chance that we are still not getting a high level of nutrition these days. Some people will not suffer from this, for various reasons, and others will.
Produce that is allowed to ripen naturally on the plant generally has considerably more nutrients than when picked green. I know for certain that it has much more flavor, since I have grown fruits and vegetables myself, allowing them to ripen on the vines, and there is a tremendous difference in flavor. It also makes sense that the better the quality of the soil (more nutrients in the soil), then the more nutrients that will be in the vegetables. Plants take up nutrients from the soil, and these get passed into the fruit. Conventionally grown produce contains chemical nutrients from man-made fertilizers (as well as pesticides), from soil that has been depleted of natural nutrients and organisms (as opposed to organically grown produce, which contains naturally occuring nutrients from the soil).
My conclusion is that even if we do manage to eat the 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, there is a very good chance that we are still not getting a high level of nutrition these days. Some people will not suffer from this, for various reasons, and others will.
littlelulu1937
08-27-2003, 08:43 PM
I guess I'm getting interested in this subject as I did a web search on "soil depletion vitamins minerals", and although there were numerous sites that claimed that supplements are necessary because fruits & vegetables no longer have the proper amount of nutrients, all were commercial (some even owned b M.D.'s & Ph.d's) where you could, of course, purchase their line of products to rectify this problem, I could find no sites (save one,see below) covering this situation by university food science people or departments with a less biased view. One supplement site even claimed that you would have to eat seven apples today to equal the nutrients in one 1950 apple (sounds like the "orange story", though there was no "cites" or "references" whatsoever to prove this claim, so I have to take it with a grain of salt.
The one non-commercial website on nutritition, available as a free daily email, was that of Dr. David Klurfield, who is the Chairman & Professor, in the Department of Nuitrition & Food Sciences at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, whose on-line article on the subject, reads in part as follows:
Titled "The Soil Depletion Song"
"The refrain that depleted soils yield less nutritious fruits and vegetables is one story that refuses to go away even though there is minimal evidence for it. Vitamins are not found loose in the soil just waiting for plants to soak them up into their roots. Plants synthesize their vitamins from a variety of building blocks in the soil. Minerals are taken up from the soil, but if there is a deficiency in minerals needed for growth of a plant, it simply does not yield commercially viable amounts of fruits or vegetables".
What I take from this is that the while the nutrients in the soil effect the crop yield, they esentially don't affect the nutritition in the produce itself. As a corallary, I am an avid rose grower. Almost all my rose bushes are correctly planted in enriched soil & yield a heavy "crop" of flowers. I do have one rose bush though, that in a hurry situation about three or four years ago, I just dug a quick hole in an unamended poor soil area & have never gotten around to replanting it correctly, though I do keep it well-watered. Although this bush has little more than a few roses every year, each & every one is as big & beautiful & smells just as great as her "sister" bushes; only the "numbers" aren't there. So while the "yield" is poor, the product itself is fine.
Dr. Klurfield goes on to say in a later paragraph that "While organic farming may be more evironmentally friendly, there is no nutritional difference in vitamins or minerals between crops grown under those two conditions." (Here he's referring to an earlier paragraph concerning what you'd call modern farming practices vs. organic.)
Because of board rules, I won't post the website, but it can easily be found with a little search for a more complete reading.
The one non-commercial website on nutritition, available as a free daily email, was that of Dr. David Klurfield, who is the Chairman & Professor, in the Department of Nuitrition & Food Sciences at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, whose on-line article on the subject, reads in part as follows:
Titled "The Soil Depletion Song"
"The refrain that depleted soils yield less nutritious fruits and vegetables is one story that refuses to go away even though there is minimal evidence for it. Vitamins are not found loose in the soil just waiting for plants to soak them up into their roots. Plants synthesize their vitamins from a variety of building blocks in the soil. Minerals are taken up from the soil, but if there is a deficiency in minerals needed for growth of a plant, it simply does not yield commercially viable amounts of fruits or vegetables".
What I take from this is that the while the nutrients in the soil effect the crop yield, they esentially don't affect the nutritition in the produce itself. As a corallary, I am an avid rose grower. Almost all my rose bushes are correctly planted in enriched soil & yield a heavy "crop" of flowers. I do have one rose bush though, that in a hurry situation about three or four years ago, I just dug a quick hole in an unamended poor soil area & have never gotten around to replanting it correctly, though I do keep it well-watered. Although this bush has little more than a few roses every year, each & every one is as big & beautiful & smells just as great as her "sister" bushes; only the "numbers" aren't there. So while the "yield" is poor, the product itself is fine.
Dr. Klurfield goes on to say in a later paragraph that "While organic farming may be more evironmentally friendly, there is no nutritional difference in vitamins or minerals between crops grown under those two conditions." (Here he's referring to an earlier paragraph concerning what you'd call modern farming practices vs. organic.)
Because of board rules, I won't post the website, but it can easily be found with a little search for a more complete reading.
ARIZONA73
08-27-2003, 09:45 PM
I suppose that crops will still grow in soil which contains a lower mineral content, but that does not mean that such crops are nearly as nutritious as ones which were grown in soil which has a rich mineral content. It just can't be. True, they may still look half way decent, but that's about it. Nutritionally, they still don't contain the same quantities of minerals and vitamins as in years past.
shadepra
08-27-2003, 09:56 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by littlelulu1937:
[B]
"What I take from this is that the while the nutrients in the soil effect the crop yield, they esentially don't affect the nutritition in the produce itself."
I wonder if there have been any studies done to prove or disprove this statement. Dr. Klurfield's analysis does not provide any kind of proof in regard to scientific studies; he too is merely making some unproven statements. I haven't yet done any major research on this issue, but I am wondering what the claims about the quality of produce 50 years ago versus the quality of produce now are based upon. Are they just being made up by all those folks who sell vitamin supplements? (a possiblity)
I also tend to believe that there is a difference in the quality of nutrients in plants grown in "naturally" fertilized soil and those grown in soil that receives only man-made, chemical fertilizers. Perhaps these plants grow just as well and produce just as many fruits & vegetables, but that does not necessarily mean that the nutritional value to the animals and humans who consume them is the same. There are all kinds of organisms present in healthy, naturally fertilized soils that are often completely missing in our modern depleted, chemically ridden soils.
But of course, I have no "proof" of this in regard to scientific studies. If I ever find any, I'll be back to report my findings.
[B]
"What I take from this is that the while the nutrients in the soil effect the crop yield, they esentially don't affect the nutritition in the produce itself."
I wonder if there have been any studies done to prove or disprove this statement. Dr. Klurfield's analysis does not provide any kind of proof in regard to scientific studies; he too is merely making some unproven statements. I haven't yet done any major research on this issue, but I am wondering what the claims about the quality of produce 50 years ago versus the quality of produce now are based upon. Are they just being made up by all those folks who sell vitamin supplements? (a possiblity)
I also tend to believe that there is a difference in the quality of nutrients in plants grown in "naturally" fertilized soil and those grown in soil that receives only man-made, chemical fertilizers. Perhaps these plants grow just as well and produce just as many fruits & vegetables, but that does not necessarily mean that the nutritional value to the animals and humans who consume them is the same. There are all kinds of organisms present in healthy, naturally fertilized soils that are often completely missing in our modern depleted, chemically ridden soils.
But of course, I have no "proof" of this in regard to scientific studies. If I ever find any, I'll be back to report my findings.
ARIZONA73
08-27-2003, 11:20 PM
The way they treat soil is to put down fertilizer containing nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium. That will allow crops to grow and LOOK good so that people will buy them. But so what? So they put back nutrients which will allow crops to sprout and LOOK good. But what about the rest of them? That's where the problem is. What about the magnesium, manganese, chromium, selenium, calcium, iron, copper, zinc, etc.? They don't put them back. Why? Well, maybe because it would cost too much. So what's the answer? Well, maybe the Journal of the American Medical Association provided the answer. They now recommend that doctors advise their patients, even the healthy ones, to take vitamin and mineral supplements. Well, at least someone has finally opened up their eyes and recognized that there is a problem in our diet.