SciTeach
02-27-2003, 02:23 PM
I am 53 and have just determined in the last few years that my dad has classic symptoms of a narcissictic personality. Just finding out that his behavior has a name is a great relief, but living with him as a child and dealing with him as an adult is unbelievable!!!
He is currently the sole caregiver of my 81 yr mom, and mom has Alzheimers. Since he lacks empathy (a trait of narcissists) it concerns me greatly about the care my mom is receiving.
If anyone is familiar with narcissism and understands what it is like dealing with them (or if you'd like to know what I have to deal with) I would love to talk to you.
SciTeach
He is currently the sole caregiver of my 81 yr mom, and mom has Alzheimers. Since he lacks empathy (a trait of narcissists) it concerns me greatly about the care my mom is receiving.
If anyone is familiar with narcissism and understands what it is like dealing with them (or if you'd like to know what I have to deal with) I would love to talk to you.
SciTeach
Sponsor
chiron
02-28-2003, 01:38 AM
Your realization sounds similar to my own experience. I am the same age mentioned and several years ago I began to plumb the depths of narcissistic family patterns.
My personal realizations were triggered by the progressive family problems involving an aging parent and a step-mother suffering from Alzheimer's disease. I have now read and researched many books by various authors who deal with narcissism and psychopathology.
There are several excellent books that reveal the structure of narcissistic disorders and the psychological games individuals and families play. I am open to discussing and exploring these subjects with you.
My personal realizations were triggered by the progressive family problems involving an aging parent and a step-mother suffering from Alzheimer's disease. I have now read and researched many books by various authors who deal with narcissism and psychopathology.
There are several excellent books that reveal the structure of narcissistic disorders and the psychological games individuals and families play. I am open to discussing and exploring these subjects with you.
SciTeach
02-28-2003, 10:21 AM
Chiron
Thanks for your reply. I am so surprised in the similarities in our situations. I wouldn't have thought it likely. I would love to know what books your have found useful as well as being able to talk to someone who really understands what dealing with a NPD is like.
Mom (81) was diagnosed about 3 years ago with AD. Dad (86) has never really accepted what is going on. He knows about AD because he reads about it on the internet, but he still doesn't "get it". He and Mom live in the next county about 45 minutes from me. He will not consider moving back closer to me even though he grew up in my county.
He will not give me a key to his house for emergencies. When I try to tell him he could fall and be knocked unconscious or have a stroke and leave Mom upset and unable to get help, his response is that nothing is going to happen to him.
Don't let me get started, there is not enough room on the internet for me to write it all. Is your stepmom still at home with your dad? Does he have any help with her care?
I need to stop now, but I would like to talk to you more. Thanks again for your response.
SciTeach
Thanks for your reply. I am so surprised in the similarities in our situations. I wouldn't have thought it likely. I would love to know what books your have found useful as well as being able to talk to someone who really understands what dealing with a NPD is like.
Mom (81) was diagnosed about 3 years ago with AD. Dad (86) has never really accepted what is going on. He knows about AD because he reads about it on the internet, but he still doesn't "get it". He and Mom live in the next county about 45 minutes from me. He will not consider moving back closer to me even though he grew up in my county.
He will not give me a key to his house for emergencies. When I try to tell him he could fall and be knocked unconscious or have a stroke and leave Mom upset and unable to get help, his response is that nothing is going to happen to him.
Don't let me get started, there is not enough room on the internet for me to write it all. Is your stepmom still at home with your dad? Does he have any help with her care?
I need to stop now, but I would like to talk to you more. Thanks again for your response.
SciTeach
chiron
03-01-2003, 10:19 AM
Ignorance is the mother of devotion. -- Robert Burton
My readings took place over a three to five year period of independent research and study. Each book I read in one way or another gave me an angular perspective of the destructive narcissistic pattern.
Often I could relate directly what I read in a familial way. In a search for personal understanding I read a number of professional books on the destructive narcissistic personality pattern:
"Narcissism and Character Transformation: The Psychology of Narcissistic Character Disorders" by Nathan Schwartz-Salant; "Alcoholism, Narcissism, and Psychopathology" by Gary G. Forrest; "Individuation & Narcissism: The Psychology of Self in Jung & Kohut" by Mario Jacoby; "The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern" by Nina W. Brown; "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism" by Otto Kernberg; and, "Disorders of Narcissism: Diagnostic, Clinical, and Empirical Implications" by Elsa F. Ronningstam, Editor.
A more personalized account was given in: "Trapped In The Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists In Their Struggle For Self" by Elam Golomb.
After reading Gary G. Forrest's narcissistic profiling within the military environment I understood the general nature of the narcissistic personality: "Entitlement Deprivation," "Gender Identity," and "People Problems."
Several years earlier I shared similar observations with a school psychologist, speaking of "Functional Unsanity." Forrest discourse confirmed my observations to a great extent. I was somewhat dumb struck at all the time I had wasted in my life following a parental program of "Empty Promises."
At the same time I felt a lightness of being for several days as I reclaimed my energies. Unless you experience a casehardened narcissist first hand, you really cannot understand how "Rigid and Stubborn and Determined" they are to have their own way over others.
Cleverness and deception seem to be the order of the day. I know how frustrating the whole experience can be and I can relate to the human and economic problems realized therein. My own organizational parent was eighty-one when his health problems began with his second wife and her neurological deterioration.
She was younger than he was and he had more or less expected her to be taking care of him in his aging years. They both were of the old school and difficult personalities to be around, family included. He wanted to be King Of The Hill in his own castle for as long as possible.
They were in all ways fighting for a dominant position. Some discussion and consideration was given to a nursing home and an assisted-living environment, but a trusted professional family member discounted such a move, and in so doing completely alienated and undermined his own privileged position.
Estrangement was always part of the general status quo. "The Old Man" was determined to "take care of her" in every way, not wanting to leave her out of his sight for a moment, because "she might hurt herself." I had heard and experienced this before in the medical complications of the first marriage.
Allegedly, he did everything until his death some five years later. He progressively took over the cooking, cleaning, washing, feeding, dressing, and the maintaining of her personal functions of toiletry and bathing. It was really more than anyone could handle, including him. He was an enigma of personality, a walking contradiction of personal intentions. All the financial planning was for naught.
His life was about accumulation and investment and success; yet, paradoxically, he could not use his wealth to his or anyone else's advantage in a realistic way. It was always for the children, who were by and large grown adults. In personal and money matters, no one could get close to him without feeling emotionally abused.
He saw to it that she had more than adequate medical care, but his efforts were not enough to win her children over to his Will (To Power Over Others). Imitatively, they were just as determined to be as arrogant, stubborn, and ignorant as he was akin to be. I doubt they realized this, but I now believe they unknowingly mirrored his behavioral patterns as a family gamesmanship and one-upmanship.
There were alternative agendas involved as a highly competitive family game of economics began over who was going to die first. The extended families became involved in major conflicts of interests and positioning, emotionally and economically.
It is a very difficult story to tell honestly and judiciously, since no one could influence otherwise. He had to be in complete control of everything. He was always right, even when he was clearly wrong. Such behavior was in all ways an outrageous denial of any response-ability on his part.
When he finally fell ill, he went to the hospital and died within a week of doing so. She was placed in a nursing home, and a battle over a first and second Will came into play by a divided family, a family that was never really unified from the beginning.
The conditions of her care and treatment and the diagnosis of her having Alzheimer's disease were used as a leverage to undermine the will and the estate affairs. The complications were catastrophic and tragic in every way, but no one could leave “Will” enough alone in these antagonistic family affairs.
In hindsight, I often think that the only course of action that could have been taken would have been to take over his personal affairs legally by declaring him incompetent, but he was not incompetent. Rather, he was extremely functional, but in an unsound way.
As for myself, I kept my distance and pursued the path of knowledge as a wealth of understanding in these family affairs. I tried to keep it “in house.”
The family matrix is much deeper in psychological complexity; however, the above synopsis is a thumbnail sketch of what I have basically realized in the last few years.
How does my synopsis compare to your own experience?
My readings took place over a three to five year period of independent research and study. Each book I read in one way or another gave me an angular perspective of the destructive narcissistic pattern.
Often I could relate directly what I read in a familial way. In a search for personal understanding I read a number of professional books on the destructive narcissistic personality pattern:
"Narcissism and Character Transformation: The Psychology of Narcissistic Character Disorders" by Nathan Schwartz-Salant; "Alcoholism, Narcissism, and Psychopathology" by Gary G. Forrest; "Individuation & Narcissism: The Psychology of Self in Jung & Kohut" by Mario Jacoby; "The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern" by Nina W. Brown; "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism" by Otto Kernberg; and, "Disorders of Narcissism: Diagnostic, Clinical, and Empirical Implications" by Elsa F. Ronningstam, Editor.
A more personalized account was given in: "Trapped In The Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists In Their Struggle For Self" by Elam Golomb.
After reading Gary G. Forrest's narcissistic profiling within the military environment I understood the general nature of the narcissistic personality: "Entitlement Deprivation," "Gender Identity," and "People Problems."
Several years earlier I shared similar observations with a school psychologist, speaking of "Functional Unsanity." Forrest discourse confirmed my observations to a great extent. I was somewhat dumb struck at all the time I had wasted in my life following a parental program of "Empty Promises."
At the same time I felt a lightness of being for several days as I reclaimed my energies. Unless you experience a casehardened narcissist first hand, you really cannot understand how "Rigid and Stubborn and Determined" they are to have their own way over others.
Cleverness and deception seem to be the order of the day. I know how frustrating the whole experience can be and I can relate to the human and economic problems realized therein. My own organizational parent was eighty-one when his health problems began with his second wife and her neurological deterioration.
She was younger than he was and he had more or less expected her to be taking care of him in his aging years. They both were of the old school and difficult personalities to be around, family included. He wanted to be King Of The Hill in his own castle for as long as possible.
They were in all ways fighting for a dominant position. Some discussion and consideration was given to a nursing home and an assisted-living environment, but a trusted professional family member discounted such a move, and in so doing completely alienated and undermined his own privileged position.
Estrangement was always part of the general status quo. "The Old Man" was determined to "take care of her" in every way, not wanting to leave her out of his sight for a moment, because "she might hurt herself." I had heard and experienced this before in the medical complications of the first marriage.
Allegedly, he did everything until his death some five years later. He progressively took over the cooking, cleaning, washing, feeding, dressing, and the maintaining of her personal functions of toiletry and bathing. It was really more than anyone could handle, including him. He was an enigma of personality, a walking contradiction of personal intentions. All the financial planning was for naught.
His life was about accumulation and investment and success; yet, paradoxically, he could not use his wealth to his or anyone else's advantage in a realistic way. It was always for the children, who were by and large grown adults. In personal and money matters, no one could get close to him without feeling emotionally abused.
He saw to it that she had more than adequate medical care, but his efforts were not enough to win her children over to his Will (To Power Over Others). Imitatively, they were just as determined to be as arrogant, stubborn, and ignorant as he was akin to be. I doubt they realized this, but I now believe they unknowingly mirrored his behavioral patterns as a family gamesmanship and one-upmanship.
There were alternative agendas involved as a highly competitive family game of economics began over who was going to die first. The extended families became involved in major conflicts of interests and positioning, emotionally and economically.
It is a very difficult story to tell honestly and judiciously, since no one could influence otherwise. He had to be in complete control of everything. He was always right, even when he was clearly wrong. Such behavior was in all ways an outrageous denial of any response-ability on his part.
When he finally fell ill, he went to the hospital and died within a week of doing so. She was placed in a nursing home, and a battle over a first and second Will came into play by a divided family, a family that was never really unified from the beginning.
The conditions of her care and treatment and the diagnosis of her having Alzheimer's disease were used as a leverage to undermine the will and the estate affairs. The complications were catastrophic and tragic in every way, but no one could leave “Will” enough alone in these antagonistic family affairs.
In hindsight, I often think that the only course of action that could have been taken would have been to take over his personal affairs legally by declaring him incompetent, but he was not incompetent. Rather, he was extremely functional, but in an unsound way.
As for myself, I kept my distance and pursued the path of knowledge as a wealth of understanding in these family affairs. I tried to keep it “in house.”
The family matrix is much deeper in psychological complexity; however, the above synopsis is a thumbnail sketch of what I have basically realized in the last few years.
How does my synopsis compare to your own experience?
NancyEllen
03-01-2003, 06:47 PM
After spending two years in therapy, I am convinced my mother is a narcissist. Conrol over her three adult children (41, 45, 50) is her main focus in life. She obsesses about her millions of dollars. She constantly tells us individually that she has removed one of us at one time or another from her will. (She can take it to the grave for all I care.) She is 81 years old and just a few minutes ago she left a message on my voice mail at home. She said she wanted me to come to her house so she can have a chat with me. It seems she doesn't think I have the correct vision for the successfulness of my business (which is very successful). She wants me to buy out other businesses in the area to show everyone in town how successful I am. (I bought the business in 1981 from my mother and father). It is killing her that she has nothing to do with the successfulness of what I have been doing. And her favorite thing to say to her three children is how much a disappoinment we have been to her. I could go on and on. But I know one thing, this girl isn't having a chat with her mother this weekend. LOL!!
stanno
03-03-2003, 11:32 PM
Question:
How many of a narcissistic mother's children does it
take to change a light bulb?
Answer: (by the mother)
Oh none......NONE son! You just go ahead and go have
a good time.......I'm doing fine here in the dark.
(heehee)
------------------
Clowns to the left of us,
Jokers to the right.....
How many of a narcissistic mother's children does it
take to change a light bulb?
Answer: (by the mother)
Oh none......NONE son! You just go ahead and go have
a good time.......I'm doing fine here in the dark.
(heehee)
------------------
Clowns to the left of us,
Jokers to the right.....
SciTeach
03-10-2003, 11:23 AM
Chiron
Lots of similarities. And "game playing" is key. In my family, my mom was the peace maker...keep your father happy...don't argue with him. It was really a life of walking on egg shells and playing games.
I remember one time that we all wanted to do something different on the family vacation. But of course you could never say, "Hey Dad, this year why don't we...." He would say no without even hearing what you said...it wasn't his idea so it wasn't going to happen. The game was to "make it his idea". So at dinner one night we casually brought up this vacation destination just talking about it, but not in reference to going, just "about" it. Then we never mentioned it again. About two weeks later, Dad had great idea of where we could go for vacation. Yes, it was exactly what we had mentioned weeks before, but now he was convinced it was HIS idea!!
I became really good at manipulation, I could get almost anything I wanted because I knew how to play his game. I HATED playing, but sometimes I had no choice.
To this day, my siblings will sometimes put me in charge if something needs doing. Problem is that the older he gets, the worse he gets. And the harder it is to play the game.
When I was a teenager, I really began to see what he was like. I could never understand why my Mom didn't stand up to him. She always tried to protect us as much as possible, but I know the toll on her was great.
My brother tried to fight back when he was a teen, and the arguments he and my Dad had we horrific!!! All I rememeber of them was being in the bathroom with my Mom. She would retreat there as soon as the argumnents began, and I went with her and comforted her as she cried.
I, to this day, don't know why she took it from him. He was king, and we were subjects...doing his bidding.
I need to write more, but I have to run. I am off to Mom and Dad's house to hear what the social worker from Mercy Medical Home Care has to say. Yes, he finally agreed to get some help with Mom. I'll tell you about it later.
Thanks for the ear!!
SciTeach
Lots of similarities. And "game playing" is key. In my family, my mom was the peace maker...keep your father happy...don't argue with him. It was really a life of walking on egg shells and playing games.
I remember one time that we all wanted to do something different on the family vacation. But of course you could never say, "Hey Dad, this year why don't we...." He would say no without even hearing what you said...it wasn't his idea so it wasn't going to happen. The game was to "make it his idea". So at dinner one night we casually brought up this vacation destination just talking about it, but not in reference to going, just "about" it. Then we never mentioned it again. About two weeks later, Dad had great idea of where we could go for vacation. Yes, it was exactly what we had mentioned weeks before, but now he was convinced it was HIS idea!!
I became really good at manipulation, I could get almost anything I wanted because I knew how to play his game. I HATED playing, but sometimes I had no choice.
To this day, my siblings will sometimes put me in charge if something needs doing. Problem is that the older he gets, the worse he gets. And the harder it is to play the game.
When I was a teenager, I really began to see what he was like. I could never understand why my Mom didn't stand up to him. She always tried to protect us as much as possible, but I know the toll on her was great.
My brother tried to fight back when he was a teen, and the arguments he and my Dad had we horrific!!! All I rememeber of them was being in the bathroom with my Mom. She would retreat there as soon as the argumnents began, and I went with her and comforted her as she cried.
I, to this day, don't know why she took it from him. He was king, and we were subjects...doing his bidding.
I need to write more, but I have to run. I am off to Mom and Dad's house to hear what the social worker from Mercy Medical Home Care has to say. Yes, he finally agreed to get some help with Mom. I'll tell you about it later.
Thanks for the ear!!
SciTeach
SciTeach
03-17-2003, 01:18 PM
Sorry I've been away so long,but it's been busy at work and everywhere else.
The meeting last Monday with the caseworker went well. I am glad, though, that my sister and I were both in attendance. Dad seems to hear things that he wants to hear and makes up what he doesn't hear! Is that par for the course with a narcissist?
It took almost 3 hours to go through all of the information and paper work and I was exhausted when we were through. It would have taken less time if Dad had left out all the same old stories he tells to anyone who will listen...about HIS mother, my mom's parents, about himself!!!! AAuurrgghh!!! He makes *everything* about himself. I would love it if he put that much attention on Mom. After all she's the one with the problem.
But it's a done deal. Mom kept asking me if I liked the woman (caseworker) and if I thought all of this was a good idea. I told her yes on both accounts. She was a nervous wreck all week and couldn't wait for "all of this to be over with". I kept reassuring her that it was the unknown bothering her and once she met the nurse who'd help her she'd love it. Well, the nurse came for the first time on Saturday morning. I talked to Mom Saturday afternoon. She couldn't have been in a better mood. She loved the nurse and said she was "tickled pink" with the visit. Thank goodness it all went well.
This will last for 60 days and after that Mom will be reevaluated. If she is "stable" she will be discharged and Dad will have to hire someone to come in and help him. This Mercy Medical Home Care is not a long term process. They are there to teach and help the families find the long term help they need. I feel sure that they will help Dad find someone to come in after they discharge Mom.
Mom has fallen again since she was in the emergency room a couple of weeks ago. But she seems to have survived that fall as well. Sometimes I think the less I know the better, but I do need to know what happens on a day to day basis.
Happy St. Patrick's Day to you all.
SciTeach
The meeting last Monday with the caseworker went well. I am glad, though, that my sister and I were both in attendance. Dad seems to hear things that he wants to hear and makes up what he doesn't hear! Is that par for the course with a narcissist?
It took almost 3 hours to go through all of the information and paper work and I was exhausted when we were through. It would have taken less time if Dad had left out all the same old stories he tells to anyone who will listen...about HIS mother, my mom's parents, about himself!!!! AAuurrgghh!!! He makes *everything* about himself. I would love it if he put that much attention on Mom. After all she's the one with the problem.
But it's a done deal. Mom kept asking me if I liked the woman (caseworker) and if I thought all of this was a good idea. I told her yes on both accounts. She was a nervous wreck all week and couldn't wait for "all of this to be over with". I kept reassuring her that it was the unknown bothering her and once she met the nurse who'd help her she'd love it. Well, the nurse came for the first time on Saturday morning. I talked to Mom Saturday afternoon. She couldn't have been in a better mood. She loved the nurse and said she was "tickled pink" with the visit. Thank goodness it all went well.
This will last for 60 days and after that Mom will be reevaluated. If she is "stable" she will be discharged and Dad will have to hire someone to come in and help him. This Mercy Medical Home Care is not a long term process. They are there to teach and help the families find the long term help they need. I feel sure that they will help Dad find someone to come in after they discharge Mom.
Mom has fallen again since she was in the emergency room a couple of weeks ago. But she seems to have survived that fall as well. Sometimes I think the less I know the better, but I do need to know what happens on a day to day basis.
Happy St. Patrick's Day to you all.
SciTeach
chiron
03-18-2003, 10:26 AM
I wouldn't mind dying -- it's that business of having to stay dead that scares the **** out of me. -- R. Geis
After reading the accounts of your childhood experiences with your father and family, I am sure that many “baby boomers” grew up under the need to “seed” the head of the household.
In our family experience everything revolved around our father’s profession, vacations included. His identity, and the identity of the family, was totally wrapped up in the uniform and the rank on his shoulder.
The difficult part of dealing with the narcissistic personality is the aggravation and frustration level you mention. The higher the rank our father attained in the organization, the greater the perks as respect-ability.
There is a notice-able difference between a person who is inordinately self-centered and one who exhibits a mature mind. The problem of adulthood as a mature outlook is largely a matter of self-esteem as self-worth.
It is no coincidence that so many people are now revisioning the past in terms of the experience of childhood and “letting go” of all the baggage that has accumulated through the past century of the modern era.
The insecure narcissist is usually gathering points in areas of personal conflict, keeping accounts as memory and emotional recall, while the mature-minded personality is securely positioned, balanced, and response-able to the needs of others.
As there was “The Greatest Generation,” there was also “The Most Important Generation.”
Insecurity can breed arrogance, intolerance, stubbornness, and a profound resistance to co-operation. There was an obvious obsession with authority and control in the age of intolerance.
Your comments regarding your father's mentioning of his “mother and family” reminds me of Richard Nixon’s "Saving Face" moment. Nixon's personal solace, his security of mind and emotion, was relative to how hard “his mother” had worked to guide and support the family.
As archetypal example, Richard Nixon was no stranger to entitlement deprivation while growing up. I believe his wife was also suffering from a progressive nervous disorder relative to their life experience in marriage and politics.
In affect, your father had to “emotionally” deal with the "resignation" of his predicament with your mother in terms of family. Alzheimer's is a strain on all parties concerned and recognizing how “Futile” the situation can be is very hard to accept.
The word “Failure” was tagged to many in the family, myself included. Without question, our father expressed his bitterness at the world by charging everyone else with non-compliance to his needs, as opposed to anyone else’s needs. In general the narcissist sees everyone as an extension of himself.
A family member has told me that his wife was the only one our father would “listen” to---who could "persuade" our father to enter the hospital, such was the level of his arrogant denial and stubbornness.
The complications seemed endless as our father projected his difficulties in life onto others in the family, as “failures of non-compliance” to his dictates. I personally told him that he was very much the officer, but that he had left out the gentlemen part, becoming just a petty dictator.
Our father sat on the throne for as long as possible and never made the transition to a reason-able capitulation and rational resignation. He remained intolerant of others to his dying day. The more he demanded compliance of others, the more he alienated them.
My daughter, another “mother-figure” named after her grandmothers, was so overwhelmed I suspect by the intolerance of the woman-family experience that she left and did not attend the funeral.
The situation became a standoff between the women and the men of the family--the battle of the sexes; the men acting as his guards. Nothing was ever good enough for him, and no one could do the job as well as he could; i.e., "The Legacy of the Pater Familias.”
Respectfully, I hope things work out well for your mother and father, and for your family efforts. Keep us abreast of how things work out for everyone...
After reading the accounts of your childhood experiences with your father and family, I am sure that many “baby boomers” grew up under the need to “seed” the head of the household.
In our family experience everything revolved around our father’s profession, vacations included. His identity, and the identity of the family, was totally wrapped up in the uniform and the rank on his shoulder.
The difficult part of dealing with the narcissistic personality is the aggravation and frustration level you mention. The higher the rank our father attained in the organization, the greater the perks as respect-ability.
There is a notice-able difference between a person who is inordinately self-centered and one who exhibits a mature mind. The problem of adulthood as a mature outlook is largely a matter of self-esteem as self-worth.
It is no coincidence that so many people are now revisioning the past in terms of the experience of childhood and “letting go” of all the baggage that has accumulated through the past century of the modern era.
The insecure narcissist is usually gathering points in areas of personal conflict, keeping accounts as memory and emotional recall, while the mature-minded personality is securely positioned, balanced, and response-able to the needs of others.
As there was “The Greatest Generation,” there was also “The Most Important Generation.”
Insecurity can breed arrogance, intolerance, stubbornness, and a profound resistance to co-operation. There was an obvious obsession with authority and control in the age of intolerance.
Your comments regarding your father's mentioning of his “mother and family” reminds me of Richard Nixon’s "Saving Face" moment. Nixon's personal solace, his security of mind and emotion, was relative to how hard “his mother” had worked to guide and support the family.
As archetypal example, Richard Nixon was no stranger to entitlement deprivation while growing up. I believe his wife was also suffering from a progressive nervous disorder relative to their life experience in marriage and politics.
In affect, your father had to “emotionally” deal with the "resignation" of his predicament with your mother in terms of family. Alzheimer's is a strain on all parties concerned and recognizing how “Futile” the situation can be is very hard to accept.
The word “Failure” was tagged to many in the family, myself included. Without question, our father expressed his bitterness at the world by charging everyone else with non-compliance to his needs, as opposed to anyone else’s needs. In general the narcissist sees everyone as an extension of himself.
A family member has told me that his wife was the only one our father would “listen” to---who could "persuade" our father to enter the hospital, such was the level of his arrogant denial and stubbornness.
The complications seemed endless as our father projected his difficulties in life onto others in the family, as “failures of non-compliance” to his dictates. I personally told him that he was very much the officer, but that he had left out the gentlemen part, becoming just a petty dictator.
Our father sat on the throne for as long as possible and never made the transition to a reason-able capitulation and rational resignation. He remained intolerant of others to his dying day. The more he demanded compliance of others, the more he alienated them.
My daughter, another “mother-figure” named after her grandmothers, was so overwhelmed I suspect by the intolerance of the woman-family experience that she left and did not attend the funeral.
The situation became a standoff between the women and the men of the family--the battle of the sexes; the men acting as his guards. Nothing was ever good enough for him, and no one could do the job as well as he could; i.e., "The Legacy of the Pater Familias.”
Respectfully, I hope things work out well for your mother and father, and for your family efforts. Keep us abreast of how things work out for everyone...
Genevra
03-19-2003, 12:00 AM
I was involved with a person with Narcissitic Personality Disorder (along with depression) for 26 years. We were romantically involved off and on. The relationship was rocky and difficult, but I could not let go. I thought I could make him "normal". I thought I could fix the "quirks".
He could be soooo charming on one hand, and then so ruthless and uncaring on the other. There was no compromise, only his way ("the right way"). Any perceived rejection, and he would not speak to me for weeks. And when I would finally explode verbally after being baited over and over again, he would not speak to me for months, and *I* would have to practically beg forgiveness for my "transgression".
I was a doormat!! But not in any other part of my life, just with this man. I was always afraid of losingj him!!! He was like a parent figure to me, and I feared the rejection.
He exaggerated how much money he had, and accused EVERYONE of being after or interested in his money, even when *I* was helping him financially at the end of his life.
I loved this man, and wanted his love. I don't believe he could love anyone. I never really realized the full extent of the narcissism, and what it actually meant until I did some research after he died a few years ago.
He had told me that a psychiatrist had told him he had the personality disorder. I knew he was self-centered. . . . . but reading up on NPD really helped me to understand WHY he was so difficult and impossible, and he blamed me for all that went wrong.
Live and learn. I'll run for the hills from someone like this in the future. Don't know why it was so important for me to attempt to gain his love and approval---when it just couldn't happen.
Great topic, and thanks for talking about it.
Genevra http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
He could be soooo charming on one hand, and then so ruthless and uncaring on the other. There was no compromise, only his way ("the right way"). Any perceived rejection, and he would not speak to me for weeks. And when I would finally explode verbally after being baited over and over again, he would not speak to me for months, and *I* would have to practically beg forgiveness for my "transgression".
I was a doormat!! But not in any other part of my life, just with this man. I was always afraid of losingj him!!! He was like a parent figure to me, and I feared the rejection.
He exaggerated how much money he had, and accused EVERYONE of being after or interested in his money, even when *I* was helping him financially at the end of his life.
I loved this man, and wanted his love. I don't believe he could love anyone. I never really realized the full extent of the narcissism, and what it actually meant until I did some research after he died a few years ago.
He had told me that a psychiatrist had told him he had the personality disorder. I knew he was self-centered. . . . . but reading up on NPD really helped me to understand WHY he was so difficult and impossible, and he blamed me for all that went wrong.
Live and learn. I'll run for the hills from someone like this in the future. Don't know why it was so important for me to attempt to gain his love and approval---when it just couldn't happen.
Great topic, and thanks for talking about it.
Genevra http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
chiron
03-19-2003, 12:32 PM
As given from a woman's point of view your account is remarkably similiar to the way my father behaved in the interpersonal sphere of his two marriages, and with family members.
In regards to the "Two-Faced" disposition, I could readily identify with a number of the personal references you have mentioned.
"Holding out" and "not speaking" until the other person "gives up"~"out-of-love," and then "blasting" away at them with every "personalized indiscretion" account-able as corrosive "verbal abuse" is very typical of our family experience.
Or father always called it "critiquing" for your own good, but it was in reality just a belligerent mean-spirited criticism aimed at demoralization and depersonalization.
Women and offspring are the easy targets of such offensive behavior. There is virtually no defense against such a paralyzing attack except leaving.
Heading for the hills in self-defense is extremely accurate. After graduation from college I migrated into the remote wilderness regions of the Appalachian Mountains, a journey that has lasted for almost three decades.
My move was largely "about face" and "in self-defense," a remote distancing. More or less, I left home at the age of twenty-one when I returned from college, as my father did not or would not speak to me for what seemed like "weeks."
My father was virtually incommunicado, a stormy personality gathering pressurized-emotional steam, just waiting for the opportunity to explode and spread his wrath upon my world. The foundation of his behavior was "envy and jealousy."
I did not give him the opportunity to blow up in my face. I asked my mother to drive me to the bus station to travel to see my girl-friend for the summer at a distant university. In parting I told my mother that if I stayed he would destroy me.
My father was in the habit of referring to the women in my life, marriage included, as "That Girl," or "That Woman." He may have mellowed out somewhat in the last decade of his life as he aged, but he was very distrustful of women.
The slightest reference to a woman's "character" or "commitment," seriously or otherwise, would cause a deluge of dissention on his part. Most of the women in the family went away "angry" or "incensed" by his "aggressive" attitude.
Hence, I over-protected the women in my life by not bringing them around to see him. My daughter, a graduate of Women's Studies, was "ap-parently ap-palled" by the nature of her grand-father in his death and dying experience.
I had "seasoned and toughened" her to the "terrorizing" nature of the family experience, a "willful" and "murderous" dis-position involving her grand-mother and mother.
My daughter was very quick to tag the "baiting" nature of her grand-father's desire for contact over and through his "Will-Full" disposition. The "economic" strategy for compliance was to attack one's "self-esteem and self-worth."
Of course, I was the scapegoat for all that was not right with his and her world, as I was told that "I was a Failure" and that "I was bitter at the world." I was not the only one he told this too as "projection and projective identification."
Only through my own studies in the destructive narcissistic personality did I begin to see the "generational" pattern that can be passed from one to another down the line. Paradoxically, my daughter may well be tempermentally ambivalent, intolerant, and as stubborn as her grand-father.
Yesterday, I watched a film that I thought was very expressive of these individual and family narcissitic features, as metaphor. The film is titled "Changing Lanes."
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 03-19-2003).]
In regards to the "Two-Faced" disposition, I could readily identify with a number of the personal references you have mentioned.
"Holding out" and "not speaking" until the other person "gives up"~"out-of-love," and then "blasting" away at them with every "personalized indiscretion" account-able as corrosive "verbal abuse" is very typical of our family experience.
Or father always called it "critiquing" for your own good, but it was in reality just a belligerent mean-spirited criticism aimed at demoralization and depersonalization.
Women and offspring are the easy targets of such offensive behavior. There is virtually no defense against such a paralyzing attack except leaving.
Heading for the hills in self-defense is extremely accurate. After graduation from college I migrated into the remote wilderness regions of the Appalachian Mountains, a journey that has lasted for almost three decades.
My move was largely "about face" and "in self-defense," a remote distancing. More or less, I left home at the age of twenty-one when I returned from college, as my father did not or would not speak to me for what seemed like "weeks."
My father was virtually incommunicado, a stormy personality gathering pressurized-emotional steam, just waiting for the opportunity to explode and spread his wrath upon my world. The foundation of his behavior was "envy and jealousy."
I did not give him the opportunity to blow up in my face. I asked my mother to drive me to the bus station to travel to see my girl-friend for the summer at a distant university. In parting I told my mother that if I stayed he would destroy me.
My father was in the habit of referring to the women in my life, marriage included, as "That Girl," or "That Woman." He may have mellowed out somewhat in the last decade of his life as he aged, but he was very distrustful of women.
The slightest reference to a woman's "character" or "commitment," seriously or otherwise, would cause a deluge of dissention on his part. Most of the women in the family went away "angry" or "incensed" by his "aggressive" attitude.
Hence, I over-protected the women in my life by not bringing them around to see him. My daughter, a graduate of Women's Studies, was "ap-parently ap-palled" by the nature of her grand-father in his death and dying experience.
I had "seasoned and toughened" her to the "terrorizing" nature of the family experience, a "willful" and "murderous" dis-position involving her grand-mother and mother.
My daughter was very quick to tag the "baiting" nature of her grand-father's desire for contact over and through his "Will-Full" disposition. The "economic" strategy for compliance was to attack one's "self-esteem and self-worth."
Of course, I was the scapegoat for all that was not right with his and her world, as I was told that "I was a Failure" and that "I was bitter at the world." I was not the only one he told this too as "projection and projective identification."
Only through my own studies in the destructive narcissistic personality did I begin to see the "generational" pattern that can be passed from one to another down the line. Paradoxically, my daughter may well be tempermentally ambivalent, intolerant, and as stubborn as her grand-father.
Yesterday, I watched a film that I thought was very expressive of these individual and family narcissitic features, as metaphor. The film is titled "Changing Lanes."
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 03-19-2003).]
Genevra
03-19-2003, 03:49 PM
Chiron and everyone,
Thank you for all of your responses. It helps so much to hear that I am not the only one who got "caught" totally off-guard and unprepared to deal with this kind of personality.
Chiron, I love the way you put it:- 'he was extremely functional, but in an unsound way.' This is so ride on the mark.
Take care,
Genevra. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
Thank you for all of your responses. It helps so much to hear that I am not the only one who got "caught" totally off-guard and unprepared to deal with this kind of personality.
Chiron, I love the way you put it:- 'he was extremely functional, but in an unsound way.' This is so ride on the mark.
Take care,
Genevra. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
SciTeach
03-26-2003, 04:15 PM
Genevra and Chiron
The big lie, the big myth, the big hope is that you can "make him normal" or fix him. Even after 53 yrs my sister and I still find ourselves saying "If only he would..." Only to stop ourselves and say "Wait a minute. We're talking about Dad, remember?"
As far as not wanting to be rejected...it seems my whole life was one big rejection. I din't know how to avoid it. Anything could trigger that response. Something you would say to a "normal" person, said to a narcissist can be so distorted in their own minds that they lash out at you. You don't always see it coming.
Chiron, you mentioned how they can "hold out" if they get angry with you. The good thing about my situation now is that Dad has nowhere else to go. If he alienates his kids, he literally has NO ONE. So no matter what we say, and my sister can get SO angry with him, he always, quickly comes around...he's afraid of being alone.
Mom is doing pretty good. We have a spring flower festival each March that we went to last weekend. It was Mom, my sis and me. My brother-in-law was in charge of Dad, God bless my Bro-in-law. He deserves a medal.
Mom really loves the flowers, she touched and smelled them all. :) It was a really great day.
Things seem to be going well with the "in-home help". Mom seems to like it, and as long a Medicaid picks up the tab, Dad is fine with it, too. The telling moment will be in May when she will likely be discharged.
Talk to you all soon.
SciTeach
The big lie, the big myth, the big hope is that you can "make him normal" or fix him. Even after 53 yrs my sister and I still find ourselves saying "If only he would..." Only to stop ourselves and say "Wait a minute. We're talking about Dad, remember?"
As far as not wanting to be rejected...it seems my whole life was one big rejection. I din't know how to avoid it. Anything could trigger that response. Something you would say to a "normal" person, said to a narcissist can be so distorted in their own minds that they lash out at you. You don't always see it coming.
Chiron, you mentioned how they can "hold out" if they get angry with you. The good thing about my situation now is that Dad has nowhere else to go. If he alienates his kids, he literally has NO ONE. So no matter what we say, and my sister can get SO angry with him, he always, quickly comes around...he's afraid of being alone.
Mom is doing pretty good. We have a spring flower festival each March that we went to last weekend. It was Mom, my sis and me. My brother-in-law was in charge of Dad, God bless my Bro-in-law. He deserves a medal.
Mom really loves the flowers, she touched and smelled them all. :) It was a really great day.
Things seem to be going well with the "in-home help". Mom seems to like it, and as long a Medicaid picks up the tab, Dad is fine with it, too. The telling moment will be in May when she will likely be discharged.
Talk to you all soon.
SciTeach
chiron
03-27-2003, 09:11 AM
The Stuggle For Personal Autonomy
The "Great Man" Syndrome $ Avoidance Orientation
In a previous post I mentioned how difficult the narcissistic story is to tell. In regards to a demanding and needy parent amidst a posturing family, an older offspring was of the stated opinion "You cannot change him at his age".
A close relative made the statement “He is lonely”. I thought a senior family member would have some real clout, but I was mislead in this belief. I was soon to realize an "older" family game was playing itself out as "the favorite son", “sibling rivalry”, and “false pride.”
Cautious, I was not willing to risk my own psychological welfare or push any specific issues in these family affairs. I knew my previous role as caretaker and I did not want to get trapped by these family interplays.
So I suggested that someone be brought in to help with the Alzheimer's problem as a live-in caretaker. It was immediately stated that our father would not allow any stranger into the home because of suspicion and relative possessiveness.
Gradually I suspected "they" wanted my daughter to get involved in this way since this is how our grandfather was managed, by bringing in a grandchild to live with him. I knew what "they" wanted from me and mine, a nanny.
As a grandchild I was part of this process in a minor way and I was familiar with the unspoken of experience. Our ninety-plus grandparent was in the occasional habit of answering the door with a tempermental nature in hand.
As a middle-aged parent I made my own efforts to give my offspring a taste of what this would be like, toughening up the venue, only to be informed that I was "terrorizing". I thought, "validation and vindication".
"Cleverness" as "verbal poisoning" would have been more applicable in providing my example. I did nothing more that "act out" my personal memories as recall, mirroring "tough love" behavioral patterns as a family orientation.
Generational family patterns do die-hard. As I look back through these family affairs I now recognize the narcissistic confrontation as a frightening matter of religious-militancy in the extreme, growing up, and getting out from under the paralyzing expectations.
As example, an author recently referred to SH as a malignant narcissist. I personally identify the psychohistorical reality as Billy Joel's "Allentown" and "We didn't start the fire."
The "Great Man" Syndrome $ Avoidance Orientation
In a previous post I mentioned how difficult the narcissistic story is to tell. In regards to a demanding and needy parent amidst a posturing family, an older offspring was of the stated opinion "You cannot change him at his age".
A close relative made the statement “He is lonely”. I thought a senior family member would have some real clout, but I was mislead in this belief. I was soon to realize an "older" family game was playing itself out as "the favorite son", “sibling rivalry”, and “false pride.”
Cautious, I was not willing to risk my own psychological welfare or push any specific issues in these family affairs. I knew my previous role as caretaker and I did not want to get trapped by these family interplays.
So I suggested that someone be brought in to help with the Alzheimer's problem as a live-in caretaker. It was immediately stated that our father would not allow any stranger into the home because of suspicion and relative possessiveness.
Gradually I suspected "they" wanted my daughter to get involved in this way since this is how our grandfather was managed, by bringing in a grandchild to live with him. I knew what "they" wanted from me and mine, a nanny.
As a grandchild I was part of this process in a minor way and I was familiar with the unspoken of experience. Our ninety-plus grandparent was in the occasional habit of answering the door with a tempermental nature in hand.
As a middle-aged parent I made my own efforts to give my offspring a taste of what this would be like, toughening up the venue, only to be informed that I was "terrorizing". I thought, "validation and vindication".
"Cleverness" as "verbal poisoning" would have been more applicable in providing my example. I did nothing more that "act out" my personal memories as recall, mirroring "tough love" behavioral patterns as a family orientation.
Generational family patterns do die-hard. As I look back through these family affairs I now recognize the narcissistic confrontation as a frightening matter of religious-militancy in the extreme, growing up, and getting out from under the paralyzing expectations.
As example, an author recently referred to SH as a malignant narcissist. I personally identify the psychohistorical reality as Billy Joel's "Allentown" and "We didn't start the fire."
SciTeach
03-28-2003, 05:10 PM
Chiron - I feel like you must be my sister. It's weird. I always thought that my family (Dad) was totally unique. I'm rather sorry to find out we're not. I wouldn't wish a narcissist parent on my worst enemy.
My dad has said all along that *he* is the caregiver. He seems to want everyone to know, now and after Mom dies, that *he* was the one and only one who took care of her.
We live about 45 minutes away from my parents. No matter how many times we ask him to move back so we could help, or just stop by more often, he flatly refuses!! The county he is in is not his home county. He lived near us until about 20 years ago when he built a house in the next county. Now he won't return.
My sister and I have decided to take him at his word. If he wants to be the sole caregiver, so be it. When the home care nurses come, we don't go over, even though they do some teaching and give general information about AD. I get the feeling that if we would go over and cook and clean and dress Mom, and wash the clothes, etc., he'd be fine with that. So we have avoided doing it even though that house could use a GOOD cleaning. We have, on 1 or 2 occasions, brought food to the house or cooked some dishes they can freeze and reheat. But by and large we don't want to do too much because, as you said, he'd love it if one of us moved in and took care of them.
I haven't really talked to Dad much in the last few weeks, it is just easier on my blood pressure to stay away from him. (I still talk to Mom every night, though.) So right now I am in a pretty good frame of mind. But just let something happen that we have to deal with him, and I'll be right here venting.
I really appreciate having you to talk to, chiron!!
SciTeach
My dad has said all along that *he* is the caregiver. He seems to want everyone to know, now and after Mom dies, that *he* was the one and only one who took care of her.
We live about 45 minutes away from my parents. No matter how many times we ask him to move back so we could help, or just stop by more often, he flatly refuses!! The county he is in is not his home county. He lived near us until about 20 years ago when he built a house in the next county. Now he won't return.
My sister and I have decided to take him at his word. If he wants to be the sole caregiver, so be it. When the home care nurses come, we don't go over, even though they do some teaching and give general information about AD. I get the feeling that if we would go over and cook and clean and dress Mom, and wash the clothes, etc., he'd be fine with that. So we have avoided doing it even though that house could use a GOOD cleaning. We have, on 1 or 2 occasions, brought food to the house or cooked some dishes they can freeze and reheat. But by and large we don't want to do too much because, as you said, he'd love it if one of us moved in and took care of them.
I haven't really talked to Dad much in the last few weeks, it is just easier on my blood pressure to stay away from him. (I still talk to Mom every night, though.) So right now I am in a pretty good frame of mind. But just let something happen that we have to deal with him, and I'll be right here venting.
I really appreciate having you to talk to, chiron!!
SciTeach
chiron
04-06-2003, 09:09 AM
Yesterday, I watched a DVD-Film entitled "The Kid." The psychohistorical context of this film fits very well into "The Dad" catagory, not to mention dealing with the narcissitic problem of empathy and remoteness in a nearing "middle-age" adult.
Healthwise, I found this film also interesting from a "time traveling" venue of eonic consciousness, and somewhat akin to the film "Twelve Monkeys."
Reappraising or revisioning the past, present, and future as a "time traveling" theme is becoming more influential as a developmental psychology for personality adjustment.
Healthwise, I found this film also interesting from a "time traveling" venue of eonic consciousness, and somewhat akin to the film "Twelve Monkeys."
Reappraising or revisioning the past, present, and future as a "time traveling" theme is becoming more influential as a developmental psychology for personality adjustment.
SciTeach
04-17-2003, 02:43 PM
Hi, all
It has been a 2 week nightmare....and it's just beginning. I will try to make long story as short as possible.
On April 1st my mom had a seizure that landed her in the ER near her home. She was discharged about 5 hours later after having been "loaded" with an anti-seizure medication and a prescription for Dilantin. In the following days my mom felt very nauseous and dizzy (likely from the meds). She was pretty much bed ridden. On Fri April 4 we took her to her neurologist. (Mom and Dad live in the next county, but their doctors are in my county.)
After examining her, the Dr just sat. He didn't say much and left the room to "check on something". As we expected, when he returned he told us he wanted to put her in the hospital to run tests.
We checked her in the nearest hospital (in my county) and I proceeded to drive Dad back to his house to get a good night's sleep.
Saturday, my sister called. Dad had called her to tell her he had checked himself into the ER (in his county) because he wasn't feeling good. Turns out Dad has congestive heart failure.
So we had both parents in two different hospitals, in two different counties!!
The cardiologists were going to try to treat Dad with medication. They didn't want to try surgery because of his age...86. By Sunday afternoon Dad was having so many "episodes" that they got his permission to do an emergency angioplasty. They told Dad that they had to "see" what was going on in his heart and if any of it could be fixed by using a balloon they would.
They found that he had at least 4 blocked arteries. One 100% blocked and the others at least 80%. They decided that without bypass surgery, Dad would be dead in 2 months. So on Monday, April 7 Dad had triple bypass surgery.
Also on the 7th, Mom had her remaining tests. They had already done urine tests and drawn so much blood for tests that I thought the hospital was full of vampires.
On the 7th she had a lumbar puncture (didn't go real smoothly), EEG and an MRI. The short story is, they could find nothing much out of the ordinary. The Dr did say that the MRI showed that there were large gaps in the cortex of her brain which indicated that the seizures would continue.
With both of them in the hospital we had to do some fast footwork. We found Mom a spot at an Atria facility in the dementia section. There are only 20 patients and the care is fabulous. Mom has her own room and it's decorated with her own furnishings.
But the hospital stay and the move has caused her to decline a GREAT deal. She had 2 more seizures there and they have put her on neurotin for that and phinagrin (sp) for the nauseau the neurotin causes.
She has continued to decline since she got there.
We kept most of this from Dad, due to the fact that he was still in the hospital recovering from heart surgery.
He was release this past Tuesday and is now in an in-patient rehab around the corner from my house. Mom is close to my house as well.
Tuesday I finally told Dad about Mom, her additional seizures, her decline, etc. He took it VERY hard!!!
You know that alternate reality that narcissists have? The one where they live happily even when things are awful????
He is now having to live in the real world concerning my mom. She has declined SO much. I am very scared of what will happen when Dad sees Mom....he hasn't seen her since April 4. WE have watched Mom decline over the last two weeks and he hasn't. I have no idea how he will react physically or mentally when he finally sees her. He's doing well with his cardiac rehab, but.............
What do you think??? Will there be a HUGE emotional crisis. I can usually predict with 100% accuracy how Dad will react to any situation. This one has me worried.
SciTeach
It has been a 2 week nightmare....and it's just beginning. I will try to make long story as short as possible.
On April 1st my mom had a seizure that landed her in the ER near her home. She was discharged about 5 hours later after having been "loaded" with an anti-seizure medication and a prescription for Dilantin. In the following days my mom felt very nauseous and dizzy (likely from the meds). She was pretty much bed ridden. On Fri April 4 we took her to her neurologist. (Mom and Dad live in the next county, but their doctors are in my county.)
After examining her, the Dr just sat. He didn't say much and left the room to "check on something". As we expected, when he returned he told us he wanted to put her in the hospital to run tests.
We checked her in the nearest hospital (in my county) and I proceeded to drive Dad back to his house to get a good night's sleep.
Saturday, my sister called. Dad had called her to tell her he had checked himself into the ER (in his county) because he wasn't feeling good. Turns out Dad has congestive heart failure.
So we had both parents in two different hospitals, in two different counties!!
The cardiologists were going to try to treat Dad with medication. They didn't want to try surgery because of his age...86. By Sunday afternoon Dad was having so many "episodes" that they got his permission to do an emergency angioplasty. They told Dad that they had to "see" what was going on in his heart and if any of it could be fixed by using a balloon they would.
They found that he had at least 4 blocked arteries. One 100% blocked and the others at least 80%. They decided that without bypass surgery, Dad would be dead in 2 months. So on Monday, April 7 Dad had triple bypass surgery.
Also on the 7th, Mom had her remaining tests. They had already done urine tests and drawn so much blood for tests that I thought the hospital was full of vampires.
On the 7th she had a lumbar puncture (didn't go real smoothly), EEG and an MRI. The short story is, they could find nothing much out of the ordinary. The Dr did say that the MRI showed that there were large gaps in the cortex of her brain which indicated that the seizures would continue.
With both of them in the hospital we had to do some fast footwork. We found Mom a spot at an Atria facility in the dementia section. There are only 20 patients and the care is fabulous. Mom has her own room and it's decorated with her own furnishings.
But the hospital stay and the move has caused her to decline a GREAT deal. She had 2 more seizures there and they have put her on neurotin for that and phinagrin (sp) for the nauseau the neurotin causes.
She has continued to decline since she got there.
We kept most of this from Dad, due to the fact that he was still in the hospital recovering from heart surgery.
He was release this past Tuesday and is now in an in-patient rehab around the corner from my house. Mom is close to my house as well.
Tuesday I finally told Dad about Mom, her additional seizures, her decline, etc. He took it VERY hard!!!
You know that alternate reality that narcissists have? The one where they live happily even when things are awful????
He is now having to live in the real world concerning my mom. She has declined SO much. I am very scared of what will happen when Dad sees Mom....he hasn't seen her since April 4. WE have watched Mom decline over the last two weeks and he hasn't. I have no idea how he will react physically or mentally when he finally sees her. He's doing well with his cardiac rehab, but.............
What do you think??? Will there be a HUGE emotional crisis. I can usually predict with 100% accuracy how Dad will react to any situation. This one has me worried.
SciTeach
chiron
04-19-2003, 12:16 AM
Compassionately and heartfelt, I read your post this morning and have given consideration to a number of responses throughout the day.
In so doing I reflected on my own experiences with my father and his life circumstances and situations with my mother and stepmother throughout my five decades.
To be honest about our family situation our problems escalated toward the end of our father's life as our stepmother's Alzheimer's grew worse. It was a no win situation.
We had almost no influence on our father other than as a minimal advising or supporting role. Everything and everyone was suspect in his life. He was not open for anything but what he wanted as his own way.
Each of us suffered with the emotional problems associated with his and her attitudes, since there was so much left over from the first marriages of both families. The women really took it hard.
The fact that both parental-marriage partners were having mental and physical difficulties only increased the family confusion for all concerned.
Professionally speaking, there is not much you can do other than follow the advice and counsel of the physicians and attorneys involved, and to gradually become well-informed about the possibilities involved in care, treatment, and the probabilities for recovery; and these are in all ways changing over time as medical applications advance in technique.
My own knowledge grew considerably after-the-fact of our father's death; it was somewhat of a liberation. I played no part in our stepmother's care and treatment. I can only share my own life experience as a gesture of good faith and observation.
In this sense I found that the "emotional crisis" was more of an involvement with "tying-up" all the affective "loose-ends" of the past in the present as a compression of the moment-momentum.
The whole situation was an intense state of family matters, as a family affair. The legal threats were all too easy to come by, as was the red flagging over who was responsible for this and that, as if anyone could really be held accountable for the decisions our father was forcing on everyone.
The doctors-attorneys were duly concerned about their patient-client-career management efforts. Anticipations and expectations abounded in the families of both parties!
All the unresolved emotional patterns of our family behavior came to a head in the last two years of our father and stepmother's life affairs. The following two years were an “out-rage-ous” chain of events as an after-shock of disillusionment.
Our stepmother's family viewed their mother's situation as a virtual death and loss, with considerable contributions made by our father's narcissism toward her nervous deterioration. I had a relative disrespect for her position since she had played the marital advantage in the first place.
The most difficult part of our whole family experience was realizing how convoluted and full of dis-trust our family life had been under the negative influences of our father's destructive narcissistic pattern.
Respectfully, I wish you the best of luck in these family affairs.
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 04-19-2003).]
In so doing I reflected on my own experiences with my father and his life circumstances and situations with my mother and stepmother throughout my five decades.
To be honest about our family situation our problems escalated toward the end of our father's life as our stepmother's Alzheimer's grew worse. It was a no win situation.
We had almost no influence on our father other than as a minimal advising or supporting role. Everything and everyone was suspect in his life. He was not open for anything but what he wanted as his own way.
Each of us suffered with the emotional problems associated with his and her attitudes, since there was so much left over from the first marriages of both families. The women really took it hard.
The fact that both parental-marriage partners were having mental and physical difficulties only increased the family confusion for all concerned.
Professionally speaking, there is not much you can do other than follow the advice and counsel of the physicians and attorneys involved, and to gradually become well-informed about the possibilities involved in care, treatment, and the probabilities for recovery; and these are in all ways changing over time as medical applications advance in technique.
My own knowledge grew considerably after-the-fact of our father's death; it was somewhat of a liberation. I played no part in our stepmother's care and treatment. I can only share my own life experience as a gesture of good faith and observation.
In this sense I found that the "emotional crisis" was more of an involvement with "tying-up" all the affective "loose-ends" of the past in the present as a compression of the moment-momentum.
The whole situation was an intense state of family matters, as a family affair. The legal threats were all too easy to come by, as was the red flagging over who was responsible for this and that, as if anyone could really be held accountable for the decisions our father was forcing on everyone.
The doctors-attorneys were duly concerned about their patient-client-career management efforts. Anticipations and expectations abounded in the families of both parties!
All the unresolved emotional patterns of our family behavior came to a head in the last two years of our father and stepmother's life affairs. The following two years were an “out-rage-ous” chain of events as an after-shock of disillusionment.
Our stepmother's family viewed their mother's situation as a virtual death and loss, with considerable contributions made by our father's narcissism toward her nervous deterioration. I had a relative disrespect for her position since she had played the marital advantage in the first place.
The most difficult part of our whole family experience was realizing how convoluted and full of dis-trust our family life had been under the negative influences of our father's destructive narcissistic pattern.
Respectfully, I wish you the best of luck in these family affairs.
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 04-19-2003).]
chiron
04-21-2003, 10:49 AM
Prescriptive reading of "The Power Of NOW" by Eckhart Tolle might help with the emotional stress of the moment~momentum. The presentation of this book is an easy and thorough read of the psychological fundamentals and mechanics of the mind, bound within the context of the perennial spiritual focus. Echart Tolle's effort is an excellent handbook to use in times of extraordinary emotional crisis and personal stress as a guide and reality check.
During my own experiences with our escalating parental problems, the crescendo of events was experienced like a progressive venturi effect, as an affective emotionalism (>< ), a compression; as opposed to the mental state of a haphazard depression relative to these family matters. The experience was a liberating one.
During my own experiences with our escalating parental problems, the crescendo of events was experienced like a progressive venturi effect, as an affective emotionalism (>< ), a compression; as opposed to the mental state of a haphazard depression relative to these family matters. The experience was a liberating one.
trishki
05-01-2003, 04:16 PM
i have found all of your posts very interesting and informative. i am deeply hurting, trying to recover from a very damaging relationship with a narcissistic man (or should i say 'boy'?) who brutally dumped me 6 months ago. our relationship lasted a year but we were best friends (or so i thought) for 6 months prior to dating. we played music together and started a band that was doing quite well. the reasons he gave for breaking up with me were (1) i like darker hair and darker skin than you have (2) i like this other girl because she is younger and has more friends and (3) you are not independent (read: like you used to be before i achieved control over your life).
this person had required me to be with him at all times for the first 4 months of the relationship, at which point he began having panic attacks (sputtering, turning red, choking) and telling me "i just can't sustain a long-term relationship" and constantly trying to take solo vacations, etc. to get "time away" from me. this was my 'best friend' telling me this. a month after we started dating i found him looking on internet personals ads for other girls to invite to have a menage au trois with us (nothing i had consented to or was interested in, mind you). he always had lots of pornographic videos and streaming on the internet as well. i should have heeded all the red flags that were constantly waving all around me before and during the relationship but hindsight is 20/20 as they say.
he is a master at being charming and showing everyone how he has everything going for him - great job, looks, beautiful house, money, ivy league education, musical talent. but it is all just a veneer. it is hard to accept that someone i thought i was close to could just literally, one day, cut me off and chase after someone else.
it is interesting reading all of your posts because i had dreamt of spending my whole life with this person (i know, the way i describe it above it didn't sound like much fun eh?), and you have given me some much-needed perspective and insight into what a long-term relationship with him really would have been like. i was a nervous wreck the whole time i was with him (afraid that he was cheating or was continuing secret relationships with the many girls he was dating while we were 'best friends,' afraid that i wasn't 'perfect' enough to keep him). and here it is 6 months later and i still don't know what hit me or how i'm ever going to recover from this experience.
i feel like i underwent a total brainwashing (he was incredibly controlling and domineering) and am trying to get my mind and sanity back. i vow to have no further contact with him ever, he was like a poison to me. he tried to contact me about a month ago (a very self-serving surfacey email) but i wrote him back sending him a link to a website about borderline personality disorder, and telling him never to contact me again. any words of encouragement/advice would be most appreciated.
this person had required me to be with him at all times for the first 4 months of the relationship, at which point he began having panic attacks (sputtering, turning red, choking) and telling me "i just can't sustain a long-term relationship" and constantly trying to take solo vacations, etc. to get "time away" from me. this was my 'best friend' telling me this. a month after we started dating i found him looking on internet personals ads for other girls to invite to have a menage au trois with us (nothing i had consented to or was interested in, mind you). he always had lots of pornographic videos and streaming on the internet as well. i should have heeded all the red flags that were constantly waving all around me before and during the relationship but hindsight is 20/20 as they say.
he is a master at being charming and showing everyone how he has everything going for him - great job, looks, beautiful house, money, ivy league education, musical talent. but it is all just a veneer. it is hard to accept that someone i thought i was close to could just literally, one day, cut me off and chase after someone else.
it is interesting reading all of your posts because i had dreamt of spending my whole life with this person (i know, the way i describe it above it didn't sound like much fun eh?), and you have given me some much-needed perspective and insight into what a long-term relationship with him really would have been like. i was a nervous wreck the whole time i was with him (afraid that he was cheating or was continuing secret relationships with the many girls he was dating while we were 'best friends,' afraid that i wasn't 'perfect' enough to keep him). and here it is 6 months later and i still don't know what hit me or how i'm ever going to recover from this experience.
i feel like i underwent a total brainwashing (he was incredibly controlling and domineering) and am trying to get my mind and sanity back. i vow to have no further contact with him ever, he was like a poison to me. he tried to contact me about a month ago (a very self-serving surfacey email) but i wrote him back sending him a link to a website about borderline personality disorder, and telling him never to contact me again. any words of encouragement/advice would be most appreciated.
NancyEllen
05-03-2003, 12:10 AM
As Dear Abby would say, Dump him.
Genevra
05-06-2003, 12:55 AM
Trishki, (and everybody)
It sounds like you have done the RIGHT thing. Stay strong! I never did let go of the narcissist in my life. I got married, and still remained in contact. I had children, and still remained in contact. *I* could not let go of the fantasy that I had a father in my life.
Oh, he was not all bad---but I should have disconnected from him long ago. Although he was divorced (not from ME!) and had four adult children---*I* was the one who took care of him the last few years of his life. I also helped him financially.
He left me his tiny estate, but low and behold, one of his children (a son) comes out of the woodwork to contest the will making horrible accusations against me. The son is convinced that my friend was loaded with money. (part of narcissism is exaggerating one's wealth)
We finally settled our dispute. Although the Will was valid, I had already spent more than the estate is worth in legal bills. It made NO sense to take it another year to finally get to trial. I cut my losses, and gave him money from my own pocket to go away. He had a contigency lawyer. There was no justice for me.
I think the lesson is STAY AWAY from people with narcissistic personality disorder. (NDP)
I have some good memories of my friend, but I wish I had had the strength to disconnect when I had the many chances I had. In hindsight the whole relationship was a house of cards. At the slightest problem or conflict he would dump me faster than a hot potato. I could not give up the fantasy of having father/daughter relationship.
Thanks for letting me vent! :)
Genevra. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
It sounds like you have done the RIGHT thing. Stay strong! I never did let go of the narcissist in my life. I got married, and still remained in contact. I had children, and still remained in contact. *I* could not let go of the fantasy that I had a father in my life.
Oh, he was not all bad---but I should have disconnected from him long ago. Although he was divorced (not from ME!) and had four adult children---*I* was the one who took care of him the last few years of his life. I also helped him financially.
He left me his tiny estate, but low and behold, one of his children (a son) comes out of the woodwork to contest the will making horrible accusations against me. The son is convinced that my friend was loaded with money. (part of narcissism is exaggerating one's wealth)
We finally settled our dispute. Although the Will was valid, I had already spent more than the estate is worth in legal bills. It made NO sense to take it another year to finally get to trial. I cut my losses, and gave him money from my own pocket to go away. He had a contigency lawyer. There was no justice for me.
I think the lesson is STAY AWAY from people with narcissistic personality disorder. (NDP)
I have some good memories of my friend, but I wish I had had the strength to disconnect when I had the many chances I had. In hindsight the whole relationship was a house of cards. At the slightest problem or conflict he would dump me faster than a hot potato. I could not give up the fantasy of having father/daughter relationship.
Thanks for letting me vent! :)
Genevra. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
Theinvisibledaughter
05-06-2003, 07:48 PM
Hello All,
I am a child of two narcissistic parents and it has taken me 36 years to realize it...I come from a family of 5, 3 brothers and a sister.
My growing up was not a nice situation. My Father was never there for me because I wasn't a favored "son". Males in our family were all that mattered. My Mother was busy being an alcoholic and trying to punish my Father by repeated suicide attempts. She was never interested in being a parent and I regularly got the "silent treatment" for what I do not know, but she wouldn't speak to me unless I begged her too and said I was sorry for whatever I did (?!) They both undermined me continually, when I did well, "Why didn't I do better?" when I gained weight "You have a fat ass, my god!" always snide remarks, disguised as sarcasm or "constructive critisizm"
I grew up and had children and the minute my Father tried to discipline my children I told him under no circumstances would I allow that. How dare I? We didn't speak for 6 months and the only way they would talk to me is if I grovelled back into their glorious presence. They are old now and increasingly hateful. Recently they said they didn't care if they EVER talked to my sister again and that she was always a pain in the ass and that they never loved her.
It suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks, all the abuse. I was in denial, hoping that they would love me someday...that perhaps I would be good enough someday. I gave them a taste of their own medicine, I told them I didn't care if I ever spoke with either one of them again. I stood up to them even though I am still terrified of them. I don't care if they are old and will never change...they are old enough to dish out their venemous hatred, they just lost their other daughter. Now I am on the path to healing. Sometimes I start to cry and mourn the "image" of them that I miss...the one they gave when I was perfectly submissive to them and adoring and hanging on their every word. I am cutting off all contact, they will never change or see anyone elses view. They will NEVER control me again. My love and support to you all.
I am a child of two narcissistic parents and it has taken me 36 years to realize it...I come from a family of 5, 3 brothers and a sister.
My growing up was not a nice situation. My Father was never there for me because I wasn't a favored "son". Males in our family were all that mattered. My Mother was busy being an alcoholic and trying to punish my Father by repeated suicide attempts. She was never interested in being a parent and I regularly got the "silent treatment" for what I do not know, but she wouldn't speak to me unless I begged her too and said I was sorry for whatever I did (?!) They both undermined me continually, when I did well, "Why didn't I do better?" when I gained weight "You have a fat ass, my god!" always snide remarks, disguised as sarcasm or "constructive critisizm"
I grew up and had children and the minute my Father tried to discipline my children I told him under no circumstances would I allow that. How dare I? We didn't speak for 6 months and the only way they would talk to me is if I grovelled back into their glorious presence. They are old now and increasingly hateful. Recently they said they didn't care if they EVER talked to my sister again and that she was always a pain in the ass and that they never loved her.
It suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks, all the abuse. I was in denial, hoping that they would love me someday...that perhaps I would be good enough someday. I gave them a taste of their own medicine, I told them I didn't care if I ever spoke with either one of them again. I stood up to them even though I am still terrified of them. I don't care if they are old and will never change...they are old enough to dish out their venemous hatred, they just lost their other daughter. Now I am on the path to healing. Sometimes I start to cry and mourn the "image" of them that I miss...the one they gave when I was perfectly submissive to them and adoring and hanging on their every word. I am cutting off all contact, they will never change or see anyone elses view. They will NEVER control me again. My love and support to you all.
chiron
05-07-2003, 11:32 AM
Edit...
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 05-07-2003).]
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 05-07-2003).]
chiron
05-07-2003, 11:36 AM
PANDORA'S BOX: THE PARADOX
Generational Patterns Of Behavior
Re-Constructing The Mosaic Personality
Narcissism, Alcoholism, and Psychopathology
Science is a differential equation. Religion is a boundary condition. -- Alan Turing
A man is as good as he has to be, and a woman is as bad as she dares. -- Elbert Hubbard
On occasion, I have "remotely" considered myself as being "The Invisible Son/Man," a relevant designation to circumstance and situation. I was more the black-white-grey "shadow" creature caught in between my parents and siblings, as the middle child.
Raised as a Roman Catholic, I learned to become invisible in the parochial sense, "Children should be seen and not heard."
Somewhat raised in an "Ambi-Valent" family situation, I learned to play both sides of the equation, as the Devil's Advocate of Science (my father wanted to be a brain surgeon) and Religion (my mother was a repressed nun)--when needed by each parent.
As "Science and Sanity," my interest in "About Face and In Self-Defense" involved the "Borderline Dis-positions" of the "No Man's Land."
Family-wise, there were three sons of significant age differences spanning nearly two decades, the youngest being the "Favored Son" of our father, a factor relative to birth position and a desperate suicide attempt as a rejection of having had a third son (among other relevant mitigating circumstances, as an afterbirth event).
Our mother, a enigma of personality, an on and off again manic depressive, struggled with conflicts involving authority problems, repressed sexual desire, monetary control and domination.
In affect, she made an extreme effort to be recognized through embarrassing moments. Our mother came from a large family of five girls and two boys, one boy dying young in an accident; hence, there was only one "favored" son in the family, and he could do no wrong.
After giving birth to two boys, of which I was to be the anticipated, expectant, and much wanted daughter, she desperately wanted a daughter in her third attempt. Giving birth was a serious affair for her, since complications were guaranteed. In terms of parental attitude, the boys were "favored" because they were "rare," and our maternal grandmother was known for saying that she had no use for girls.
Our father's family was much the same, three boys and three girls, "the oldest son"-"the favored son" dying early in his teens by accident. Our father became the "favored son" by virtue of succession, a matter of the "Second Son" becoming the "First Son"-surrogate.
The "Silent Treatment," as an established precedent, began in this tragic death experience, I believe. Our grandmother was told not to allow the two boys to participate in a certain activity that was deemed dangerous by our grandfather.
Allegedly, our grandfather didn't speak for several days on learning of the death of his oldest-favored son, and never forgave our grandmother for her indulgence of the persistent wishes of her sons. He held the event against her for the rest of their lives together.
Our father became an expert in utilizing the "silent treatment" to get his way as "forceful emotional blackmailing," as if "holding his breath," forever and ever "holding out." Essentially, this is a "Siege Mentality" where there is always something more to be gained through possessiveness.
Where our father was concerned, "nothing was ever good enough," as "nothing was ever finished." He strove to make everything his own through a disguised envy and jealousy.
Critiquing was a way of life for him, and he made a career out of "knit-picking." There was in all ways more room for perfection, and no one could do anything better than he could do it, and he would tell you as much in a fit of rage. I rarely knew him to complement anyone in a personal or family way.
Emotionally, our father's anger and temperament, as out-rageous behavior, as a "poisonous-verbal attack," was nothing less than emotionally and physically "paralyzing." The "acting out" was breath-taking!
Our grandfather was the manly drunk that drank, and our father was an "imitative drunk" who allegedly didn't drink. As for generational discipline, they beat it out of you in order to make a better man out of you.
Our grandfather used a minor's belt, and our father a razor strap; and me, a flyswatter. My former spouse alleged "child abuse" against me for using a flyswatter to occasionally discipline our young daughter; that is, when she found a younger, more malleable "Good Provider" that was more suitable to her controlling and domineering needs.
My former spouse threatened me with suicide in order to get her way over me and mine. It was claimed by all parties concerned that I had married my mother. My father told my former spouse "I was like my mother," while telling me "My spouse was too quiet." When my former spouse left with her newfound lover, the "Good Provider," she told me, "I do not want to end up like your mother."
My mother took her life three months before our daughter was born. Prior to the birth of our child, my mother was calling me in regards to the sex of our child. I told her that it would probably be a boy, seeing as how there were no girls in the family line as yet. I had even asked the doctor for a clue to the sex of our child, but the techniques for doing so were not as developed as they are now.
In our family case history as example, "The Invisible Daughter" was the much sought after, the desired and favored one. When SHE finally arrived, SHE "TOTALLY UPSET" THE BALANCE OF POWER.
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 05-07-2003).]
Generational Patterns Of Behavior
Re-Constructing The Mosaic Personality
Narcissism, Alcoholism, and Psychopathology
Science is a differential equation. Religion is a boundary condition. -- Alan Turing
A man is as good as he has to be, and a woman is as bad as she dares. -- Elbert Hubbard
On occasion, I have "remotely" considered myself as being "The Invisible Son/Man," a relevant designation to circumstance and situation. I was more the black-white-grey "shadow" creature caught in between my parents and siblings, as the middle child.
Raised as a Roman Catholic, I learned to become invisible in the parochial sense, "Children should be seen and not heard."
Somewhat raised in an "Ambi-Valent" family situation, I learned to play both sides of the equation, as the Devil's Advocate of Science (my father wanted to be a brain surgeon) and Religion (my mother was a repressed nun)--when needed by each parent.
As "Science and Sanity," my interest in "About Face and In Self-Defense" involved the "Borderline Dis-positions" of the "No Man's Land."
Family-wise, there were three sons of significant age differences spanning nearly two decades, the youngest being the "Favored Son" of our father, a factor relative to birth position and a desperate suicide attempt as a rejection of having had a third son (among other relevant mitigating circumstances, as an afterbirth event).
Our mother, a enigma of personality, an on and off again manic depressive, struggled with conflicts involving authority problems, repressed sexual desire, monetary control and domination.
In affect, she made an extreme effort to be recognized through embarrassing moments. Our mother came from a large family of five girls and two boys, one boy dying young in an accident; hence, there was only one "favored" son in the family, and he could do no wrong.
After giving birth to two boys, of which I was to be the anticipated, expectant, and much wanted daughter, she desperately wanted a daughter in her third attempt. Giving birth was a serious affair for her, since complications were guaranteed. In terms of parental attitude, the boys were "favored" because they were "rare," and our maternal grandmother was known for saying that she had no use for girls.
Our father's family was much the same, three boys and three girls, "the oldest son"-"the favored son" dying early in his teens by accident. Our father became the "favored son" by virtue of succession, a matter of the "Second Son" becoming the "First Son"-surrogate.
The "Silent Treatment," as an established precedent, began in this tragic death experience, I believe. Our grandmother was told not to allow the two boys to participate in a certain activity that was deemed dangerous by our grandfather.
Allegedly, our grandfather didn't speak for several days on learning of the death of his oldest-favored son, and never forgave our grandmother for her indulgence of the persistent wishes of her sons. He held the event against her for the rest of their lives together.
Our father became an expert in utilizing the "silent treatment" to get his way as "forceful emotional blackmailing," as if "holding his breath," forever and ever "holding out." Essentially, this is a "Siege Mentality" where there is always something more to be gained through possessiveness.
Where our father was concerned, "nothing was ever good enough," as "nothing was ever finished." He strove to make everything his own through a disguised envy and jealousy.
Critiquing was a way of life for him, and he made a career out of "knit-picking." There was in all ways more room for perfection, and no one could do anything better than he could do it, and he would tell you as much in a fit of rage. I rarely knew him to complement anyone in a personal or family way.
Emotionally, our father's anger and temperament, as out-rageous behavior, as a "poisonous-verbal attack," was nothing less than emotionally and physically "paralyzing." The "acting out" was breath-taking!
Our grandfather was the manly drunk that drank, and our father was an "imitative drunk" who allegedly didn't drink. As for generational discipline, they beat it out of you in order to make a better man out of you.
Our grandfather used a minor's belt, and our father a razor strap; and me, a flyswatter. My former spouse alleged "child abuse" against me for using a flyswatter to occasionally discipline our young daughter; that is, when she found a younger, more malleable "Good Provider" that was more suitable to her controlling and domineering needs.
My former spouse threatened me with suicide in order to get her way over me and mine. It was claimed by all parties concerned that I had married my mother. My father told my former spouse "I was like my mother," while telling me "My spouse was too quiet." When my former spouse left with her newfound lover, the "Good Provider," she told me, "I do not want to end up like your mother."
My mother took her life three months before our daughter was born. Prior to the birth of our child, my mother was calling me in regards to the sex of our child. I told her that it would probably be a boy, seeing as how there were no girls in the family line as yet. I had even asked the doctor for a clue to the sex of our child, but the techniques for doing so were not as developed as they are now.
In our family case history as example, "The Invisible Daughter" was the much sought after, the desired and favored one. When SHE finally arrived, SHE "TOTALLY UPSET" THE BALANCE OF POWER.
[This message has been edited by chiron (edited 05-07-2003).]
kippy6
05-12-2003, 01:28 AM
SciTeach - How are your parents?
kippy6
05-12-2003, 08:38 AM
I believe my DH to have a NPD. From my reading online, I thought this (in most cases) got better with age. What do you all know about this?
Also, I read online, that if one spouse has the disorder, and the other does not, your child probably won't get it. Do you believe this information to be true?
Have you heard of any success stories of a person w/NPD who has received treatment for this disorder? Have you ever attended any support groups?
[This message has been edited by kippy6 (edited 05-12-2003).]
Also, I read online, that if one spouse has the disorder, and the other does not, your child probably won't get it. Do you believe this information to be true?
Have you heard of any success stories of a person w/NPD who has received treatment for this disorder? Have you ever attended any support groups?
[This message has been edited by kippy6 (edited 05-12-2003).]
SciTeach
05-12-2003, 06:06 PM
Hi, everyone
The time has flown by. Between getting my parents settled and the end of the school year (8th graders) I have had no time for me at all.
I just now caught up on reading posts. Trishka, count yourself lucky. This is a man you don't want to be with. He did you a HUGE favor by leaving!!!! When you begin to date a "normal" guy, you won't believe the difference.
Invisible, I cannot IMAGINE have 2 NPD parents!!! That blows my mind as we said back in the 60's. If Mom hadn't been around to talk to me and listen to me and rememeber what I had told her...I don't know what I'd have done. God Bless YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kippy6, I would take issue with your thought that NPD's got better not worse. I had always heard it was the opposite, but now with what's happening with Dad, I don't know what to say.
Dad was in cardiac rehab for 2 weeks. We fully expected a big fight about he living arrangements after he was discharged. We didn't have anything close to a fight.
Tomorrow Dad will have been at Atria in the the assisted living for 2 weeks. It was never an issue. We did look as another AL place at his request, but found out it wasn't as nice and was actually more expensive. After that he never balked.
He is a different person. This Dad listens to us, asks our advice and opinions, tells us he loves us and has even talked about why he is feeling "despondent". (His word). He said he never thought his life would turn out like this, he hates seeing Mom have to be in the dementia unit, but at the same time, he knows and admits he can't take care of her himself. He has faced his own mortality.
I don't know if this change is permanent, but only time will tell.
He has even agreed to SELL HIS HOUSE and land. At Atria he is literally around the corner from my house. His former house is in the next county.
He has his car at Atria, but is not making moves to drive yet. We thought we'd have to take the keys away until he was up to it, but he seems to have figured it out himself that he is not ready.
His reality is more in tune with reality. He is not living in that fantasy world he's been in all of his life. Frankly, that's probably why he's depressed. He's having to face to unpleasant real world issues.
I really feel sorry for him and I can really (for the first time in my life) say that I love him and MEAN IT.
It will be interesting to see what the future holds. It will be a lot of things, but definitely not boring.
Thanks for your ears. :)
SciTeach
The time has flown by. Between getting my parents settled and the end of the school year (8th graders) I have had no time for me at all.
I just now caught up on reading posts. Trishka, count yourself lucky. This is a man you don't want to be with. He did you a HUGE favor by leaving!!!! When you begin to date a "normal" guy, you won't believe the difference.
Invisible, I cannot IMAGINE have 2 NPD parents!!! That blows my mind as we said back in the 60's. If Mom hadn't been around to talk to me and listen to me and rememeber what I had told her...I don't know what I'd have done. God Bless YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kippy6, I would take issue with your thought that NPD's got better not worse. I had always heard it was the opposite, but now with what's happening with Dad, I don't know what to say.
Dad was in cardiac rehab for 2 weeks. We fully expected a big fight about he living arrangements after he was discharged. We didn't have anything close to a fight.
Tomorrow Dad will have been at Atria in the the assisted living for 2 weeks. It was never an issue. We did look as another AL place at his request, but found out it wasn't as nice and was actually more expensive. After that he never balked.
He is a different person. This Dad listens to us, asks our advice and opinions, tells us he loves us and has even talked about why he is feeling "despondent". (His word). He said he never thought his life would turn out like this, he hates seeing Mom have to be in the dementia unit, but at the same time, he knows and admits he can't take care of her himself. He has faced his own mortality.
I don't know if this change is permanent, but only time will tell.
He has even agreed to SELL HIS HOUSE and land. At Atria he is literally around the corner from my house. His former house is in the next county.
He has his car at Atria, but is not making moves to drive yet. We thought we'd have to take the keys away until he was up to it, but he seems to have figured it out himself that he is not ready.
His reality is more in tune with reality. He is not living in that fantasy world he's been in all of his life. Frankly, that's probably why he's depressed. He's having to face to unpleasant real world issues.
I really feel sorry for him and I can really (for the first time in my life) say that I love him and MEAN IT.
It will be interesting to see what the future holds. It will be a lot of things, but definitely not boring.
Thanks for your ears. :)
SciTeach
shocked
05-28-2003, 12:09 PM
Hi everyone. I need help.
My 23 yr marriage has ended. My husband left me. I happened upon some NPD information and was shocked. Absolutely shocked. This has been my 23 years, and I never realized it. He is totally NPD.
Well, he's gone, and i'm moving on. But i need some help healing from this, and want to make sure I dont pick another NPD, since I'm in the habit of being accomodating and supportive now.
Is there any reading on how to fix the survivor of an NPD relationship? Like children of alcoholics, rejects of NPDers.
Feel free to email me at mozeyjava@hotmail.com. Thanks all!
My 23 yr marriage has ended. My husband left me. I happened upon some NPD information and was shocked. Absolutely shocked. This has been my 23 years, and I never realized it. He is totally NPD.
Well, he's gone, and i'm moving on. But i need some help healing from this, and want to make sure I dont pick another NPD, since I'm in the habit of being accomodating and supportive now.
Is there any reading on how to fix the survivor of an NPD relationship? Like children of alcoholics, rejects of NPDers.
Feel free to email me at mozeyjava@hotmail.com. Thanks all!