Redhead23
08-12-2003, 07:43 AM
Hi,
My friend is around 30 and has been in therapy for depression etc. since she was about 15. She's quite creative and reads/writes a lot and is a nice, intelligent lady really but she seems literally obsessed with *wanting* to be ill. I understand that depressive feelings can often remain hidden and I do believe that she is truely unhappy and has some issues (parents never really showed her love and are v. cold towards her, she has panic attacks and rarely leaves the house) but the way she is acting makes it look like she's hopping from one problem to the next and looking up stuff just so she can add new illnesses to he repertoire. I mean we've all got problems and I myself suffer from panic attacks, anxiety, insecurities and social phobias but that doesn't mean I have to give up working on myself, lie down and demand to be card for and expect people to feel sorry for me!
She sometimes "cuts" herself, now I know people who self-harm generally don't do it "for attention" but when someone just barely scratches their skin and then puts huge bandages on, then constantly slips back their sleeves to make sure everyone can see the bandages (hoping for them to go "Aaw have you cut yourself again?"), or proudly showing off some little pattern they scratched into their arm (and I do mean scratched and not cut, it rarely bleeds!), then is that really self-harm in the traditional sense?
She has suffered from eating disorders for a while but again yes she is a compulsive overeater (and a lot of compulsive other things, she buys lots of clothes, food etc. and then gives it all away), but she constantly keeps trying to act like she's bulimic or anorexic (she eats vegetables for one day and suddenyl she's "anorexic" again, or throws up once and then is "bulimic" again - this never lasts more than a day or two but she has to tell the world whenever it does happen).
She once told me that she wished she had leukemia, so she could just "grow weaker and thinner" and "everybody would love her and care for her in hospital".
She often looks up psychiatric and medical problems and starts acting like she has them, usually nothing serious though.
She used to have a great job with a good wage but she never liked working and constantly kept going on about how she wished she would get disability payments so she'd never have to work again in her life. well, a friend told her about 5 years ago how she filled in her questionnaire (at a therapist's) to get diagnosed as BPD, so my friend practiced and got the diagnosis.
As soon as she was diagnosed she committed herself to a mental asylum for 4 months and has not worked since (she pocketed sick pay for about half a year until she decided she would not return to her job) and is now on disability, living in a fancy flat that her mom bought as an "investment", rent-free. She spends all her money on clothes, food, occasionally going out (she does not like being out of her home though) and books, she barely has any friends and spends a LOT of time sitting at home on her own doing pretty much nothing (well, watching TV, eating etc.).
Her main problems seem to be that she's very impulsive, has grand schemes and ideas (like writing a book, starting an education etc.) that she starts and never finishes, she's also compulsive and keeps doing too much of everything. She keeps going from therapist to therapist because once a therapist does not agree with her own analysis of herself (i.e. what she WANTS to be DX'd as) she starts complaining about him/her and then finds herself another terapist.
She demands cosntant attention from therapists and does not understand that they have their own lives and can NOT always be there to hold her hand whenever my friend feels a little down. She refuses to take ANY responsibility for her life and her actions and expects (demands?) everyone to care for her, always be there for her and continuously tell her what a poor soul she is. On the other hand she refuses to actually take any medication (even herbal/natural things like valerian, kava kava, St John's wort etc.) or do any exercises etc. that are recommended to her and that might help her, always coming up with yet another excuse why she can't do/use a particular treatment. Occasionally she will go to the Psychiatric ER and stay for a night and get valium but she does not take any medications on a rgular basis, even though it has been recommended to her repeatedly (by doctors/therapists etc.).
I know she has problems and she is not doing this just to get a free ride, but I also know that she is grossly exaggerating a lot of her problems to get attention.
The thing is - does this sound like BPD? I am asking because she told me that she FAKED the answers to the questionnaire that finally got her the diagnosis (she had never been diagnosed with anything before, in over 10 years of therapy) so I don't know if her therapist just DXd her to give her the label she'd been yearning for and get herself some peace.
Under all the lies and deceptions and excuses, my friend is a generous, witty, creative and intelligent woman. I only see her about once a year (I live in the UK, she lives in Switzerland) and for a week or two she is mostly bearable, but it still pains me to see her waste her life away like that.
Is there any literature you could recommend and has anyone else seen such behaviour before?
Thanks,
Red
[This message has been edited by Redhead23 (edited 08-12-2003).]
My friend is around 30 and has been in therapy for depression etc. since she was about 15. She's quite creative and reads/writes a lot and is a nice, intelligent lady really but she seems literally obsessed with *wanting* to be ill. I understand that depressive feelings can often remain hidden and I do believe that she is truely unhappy and has some issues (parents never really showed her love and are v. cold towards her, she has panic attacks and rarely leaves the house) but the way she is acting makes it look like she's hopping from one problem to the next and looking up stuff just so she can add new illnesses to he repertoire. I mean we've all got problems and I myself suffer from panic attacks, anxiety, insecurities and social phobias but that doesn't mean I have to give up working on myself, lie down and demand to be card for and expect people to feel sorry for me!
She sometimes "cuts" herself, now I know people who self-harm generally don't do it "for attention" but when someone just barely scratches their skin and then puts huge bandages on, then constantly slips back their sleeves to make sure everyone can see the bandages (hoping for them to go "Aaw have you cut yourself again?"), or proudly showing off some little pattern they scratched into their arm (and I do mean scratched and not cut, it rarely bleeds!), then is that really self-harm in the traditional sense?
She has suffered from eating disorders for a while but again yes she is a compulsive overeater (and a lot of compulsive other things, she buys lots of clothes, food etc. and then gives it all away), but she constantly keeps trying to act like she's bulimic or anorexic (she eats vegetables for one day and suddenyl she's "anorexic" again, or throws up once and then is "bulimic" again - this never lasts more than a day or two but she has to tell the world whenever it does happen).
She once told me that she wished she had leukemia, so she could just "grow weaker and thinner" and "everybody would love her and care for her in hospital".
She often looks up psychiatric and medical problems and starts acting like she has them, usually nothing serious though.
She used to have a great job with a good wage but she never liked working and constantly kept going on about how she wished she would get disability payments so she'd never have to work again in her life. well, a friend told her about 5 years ago how she filled in her questionnaire (at a therapist's) to get diagnosed as BPD, so my friend practiced and got the diagnosis.
As soon as she was diagnosed she committed herself to a mental asylum for 4 months and has not worked since (she pocketed sick pay for about half a year until she decided she would not return to her job) and is now on disability, living in a fancy flat that her mom bought as an "investment", rent-free. She spends all her money on clothes, food, occasionally going out (she does not like being out of her home though) and books, she barely has any friends and spends a LOT of time sitting at home on her own doing pretty much nothing (well, watching TV, eating etc.).
Her main problems seem to be that she's very impulsive, has grand schemes and ideas (like writing a book, starting an education etc.) that she starts and never finishes, she's also compulsive and keeps doing too much of everything. She keeps going from therapist to therapist because once a therapist does not agree with her own analysis of herself (i.e. what she WANTS to be DX'd as) she starts complaining about him/her and then finds herself another terapist.
She demands cosntant attention from therapists and does not understand that they have their own lives and can NOT always be there to hold her hand whenever my friend feels a little down. She refuses to take ANY responsibility for her life and her actions and expects (demands?) everyone to care for her, always be there for her and continuously tell her what a poor soul she is. On the other hand she refuses to actually take any medication (even herbal/natural things like valerian, kava kava, St John's wort etc.) or do any exercises etc. that are recommended to her and that might help her, always coming up with yet another excuse why she can't do/use a particular treatment. Occasionally she will go to the Psychiatric ER and stay for a night and get valium but she does not take any medications on a rgular basis, even though it has been recommended to her repeatedly (by doctors/therapists etc.).
I know she has problems and she is not doing this just to get a free ride, but I also know that she is grossly exaggerating a lot of her problems to get attention.
The thing is - does this sound like BPD? I am asking because she told me that she FAKED the answers to the questionnaire that finally got her the diagnosis (she had never been diagnosed with anything before, in over 10 years of therapy) so I don't know if her therapist just DXd her to give her the label she'd been yearning for and get herself some peace.
Under all the lies and deceptions and excuses, my friend is a generous, witty, creative and intelligent woman. I only see her about once a year (I live in the UK, she lives in Switzerland) and for a week or two she is mostly bearable, but it still pains me to see her waste her life away like that.
Is there any literature you could recommend and has anyone else seen such behaviour before?
Thanks,
Red
[This message has been edited by Redhead23 (edited 08-12-2003).]
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HannahR
10-25-2003, 02:19 PM
Hi,
I thought I'd reply, since no one else has, and I know how it feels to keep looking for one, and not finding any.
I'm not an expert, or a health-care professional, so it's only my opinion. Your friend seems depressed. That may sound obvious, but I mean depressed as opposed to BPD. It also seems she wants to withdraw from life, maybe from fear; possibly of failure, rejection, being hurt, etc.
Depression can be organic in origin, so a medical doctor may find a physical reason. If not, well......the mind and psyche of each individual is different. While one person becomes stronger and more determined as the result of some emotional trauma; another will be crushed, and permanently impaired.
The fact that you are concerned says a lot about the kind of friend you are.
I would encourage her to see someone professionally, and continue to be a friend. Abandoning her would only make things worse. But do be careful not to get dragged down by her depression. It won't help you, or her...or anyone
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Hannah
I thought I'd reply, since no one else has, and I know how it feels to keep looking for one, and not finding any.
I'm not an expert, or a health-care professional, so it's only my opinion. Your friend seems depressed. That may sound obvious, but I mean depressed as opposed to BPD. It also seems she wants to withdraw from life, maybe from fear; possibly of failure, rejection, being hurt, etc.
Depression can be organic in origin, so a medical doctor may find a physical reason. If not, well......the mind and psyche of each individual is different. While one person becomes stronger and more determined as the result of some emotional trauma; another will be crushed, and permanently impaired.
The fact that you are concerned says a lot about the kind of friend you are.
I would encourage her to see someone professionally, and continue to be a friend. Abandoning her would only make things worse. But do be careful not to get dragged down by her depression. It won't help you, or her...or anyone
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Hannah
Redhead23
10-27-2003, 10:18 AM
Thanks, my friend has been in therapy for much of her teenage years and all of her adult life, so she is getting all the professional help she can get, although she often "gets fed up" with a therapist if the therapist doesn't agree with her so she has changed them quite often.
Seasons
10-30-2003, 05:08 PM
Hi Redhead
I'm going to have to disagree with the last reply and say that I feel that you have a lot of animosity towards your friend and it's probably best for you to stay out of it. You said that you suffer from some anxiety and panic issues....well....no one is walking in your shoes so they will never totally understand what it is that you are going through so please don't tell yourself that you know what's up with your friend. I found you were quiet judgemental with her and you seem to find her emotional complaints amusing and unbelievable....well maybe she feels very confused about what is going on with her and so she looks for many reasons that may be the cause..maybe she is so desperate to find the right answer that whenever she hears of the diagnosis of the day she feels like ...maybe this is it and really believes that it is...YOU just don't know....just as many others would not be able to relate to what is going on with you.
If you are truely her friend then it doesn't matter what the symptom of the day is.....stand by her and let her work it out without conditions or negetive feedback.....I'm not saying that you verbalise what you said on here to her, and I hope that you don't but I'll bet she can feel or sense how you feel.
I have a favorate saying....it goes like this....the only way to see the world with clarity is to look at it from the inside out....beginning with yourself.
Seasons
[This message has been edited by Seasons (edited 10-30-2003).]
I'm going to have to disagree with the last reply and say that I feel that you have a lot of animosity towards your friend and it's probably best for you to stay out of it. You said that you suffer from some anxiety and panic issues....well....no one is walking in your shoes so they will never totally understand what it is that you are going through so please don't tell yourself that you know what's up with your friend. I found you were quiet judgemental with her and you seem to find her emotional complaints amusing and unbelievable....well maybe she feels very confused about what is going on with her and so she looks for many reasons that may be the cause..maybe she is so desperate to find the right answer that whenever she hears of the diagnosis of the day she feels like ...maybe this is it and really believes that it is...YOU just don't know....just as many others would not be able to relate to what is going on with you.
If you are truely her friend then it doesn't matter what the symptom of the day is.....stand by her and let her work it out without conditions or negetive feedback.....I'm not saying that you verbalise what you said on here to her, and I hope that you don't but I'll bet she can feel or sense how you feel.
I have a favorate saying....it goes like this....the only way to see the world with clarity is to look at it from the inside out....beginning with yourself.
Seasons
[This message has been edited by Seasons (edited 10-30-2003).]
Redhead23
10-31-2003, 06:04 AM
Seasons I think you got the wrong end of the stick, I do take my friend's (lets call her D) problems very seriously and am very concerned about her. I do live in a different country so can't be there for D all the time but I do visit her every time I get home, and I stay in touch with her via Email/text messages and send her a present for Christmas/bring a present over for her birthday when I visit.
I never doubted that D had serious problems, what I did doubt was that she actually has BPD since not only has she admitted to me that she learned by heart how to fill in the questionnaire in order to balance the scales towards a BPD diagnosis, but she also repeatedly pointed out that she wished she "had a label" so she could stay at home and would never have to work again.
As I said D does exhibit some signs of what I've read about BPD but the whole "I hate you - don't leave me" thing just is not there, in fact she has more friends and a better social life than I do, she has never "rejected" me or M, a friend of hers that I'm also friends with (& was friends with before I met D), nor has she ever voiced any hostile feelings towards me or the M.
She can get a bit ropey/stroppy sometimes when there's too many people around, but no more than both me & my Mom do - there is no "one-on-one" rejection or "I hate you - don't leave me" type scenario going on at all, in fact she often asks people to leave when she's had enough/needs her space! (From my perspective, there is no emotional blackmailing going on, no "If you don't stay with me then..." type scenarios or any other needy-type behaviour that is associated with the "hate you/need you" behaviour associated with BPD)
She does occasionally have fallouts with another friend, but from what I can see these are usually instigated by the other party (who is the friend of hers who was initially diagnosed BPD, which was what caused my friend to strive for that diagnosis in the first place) "turning against" D and being nasty to her.
I am not saying she has no reason to be upset, I just feel that if she is just hanging on to the BPD label because she fancied having a label, then she might be missing out on something that might actually help her, something that could actually make her happier within herself, instead of using the label as a reason to stop working on herself and just resign herself to lonely misery :(
PS: I forgot to mention in the first post, she refuses to take ANY medication for problems she has, she will occasionally go to the emergency hospital ward for psychiatric emergencies and ask for (demand) valium if she can get her hands on it, but other than that she has so far refused to even try anything, natural or pharmaceutical.
She goes to therapy once a week but as soon as a therapist mentions something she doesn't like or doesn't fancy doing (exercises etc.) she insists on seeing yet another therapist.
I guess I just don't udnerstand how she can be so desperate to be labelled/crave attention, yet when she is being offered something that may actually help her feel/get better she refuses to have anything to do with it! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/confused.gif
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Redhead23
Female, 25
Quit smoking & left abusive relationship in 2003 - now there's just some 25 lbs to lose and my head to clear!
Possible ADD
Anxiety, panic attacks
[This message has been edited by Redhead23 (edited 10-31-2003).]
I never doubted that D had serious problems, what I did doubt was that she actually has BPD since not only has she admitted to me that she learned by heart how to fill in the questionnaire in order to balance the scales towards a BPD diagnosis, but she also repeatedly pointed out that she wished she "had a label" so she could stay at home and would never have to work again.
As I said D does exhibit some signs of what I've read about BPD but the whole "I hate you - don't leave me" thing just is not there, in fact she has more friends and a better social life than I do, she has never "rejected" me or M, a friend of hers that I'm also friends with (& was friends with before I met D), nor has she ever voiced any hostile feelings towards me or the M.
She can get a bit ropey/stroppy sometimes when there's too many people around, but no more than both me & my Mom do - there is no "one-on-one" rejection or "I hate you - don't leave me" type scenario going on at all, in fact she often asks people to leave when she's had enough/needs her space! (From my perspective, there is no emotional blackmailing going on, no "If you don't stay with me then..." type scenarios or any other needy-type behaviour that is associated with the "hate you/need you" behaviour associated with BPD)
She does occasionally have fallouts with another friend, but from what I can see these are usually instigated by the other party (who is the friend of hers who was initially diagnosed BPD, which was what caused my friend to strive for that diagnosis in the first place) "turning against" D and being nasty to her.
I am not saying she has no reason to be upset, I just feel that if she is just hanging on to the BPD label because she fancied having a label, then she might be missing out on something that might actually help her, something that could actually make her happier within herself, instead of using the label as a reason to stop working on herself and just resign herself to lonely misery :(
PS: I forgot to mention in the first post, she refuses to take ANY medication for problems she has, she will occasionally go to the emergency hospital ward for psychiatric emergencies and ask for (demand) valium if she can get her hands on it, but other than that she has so far refused to even try anything, natural or pharmaceutical.
She goes to therapy once a week but as soon as a therapist mentions something she doesn't like or doesn't fancy doing (exercises etc.) she insists on seeing yet another therapist.
I guess I just don't udnerstand how she can be so desperate to be labelled/crave attention, yet when she is being offered something that may actually help her feel/get better she refuses to have anything to do with it! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/confused.gif
------------------
Redhead23
Female, 25
Quit smoking & left abusive relationship in 2003 - now there's just some 25 lbs to lose and my head to clear!
Possible ADD
Anxiety, panic attacks
[This message has been edited by Redhead23 (edited 10-31-2003).]
Seasons
10-31-2003, 07:47 AM
Hi Redhead
You mentioned a list of symptoms under the BPD criteria. This diagnosis is still up in the air with the mental health professionals because it isn't considered a "real" diagnosis.....among many professionals its considered a cop out for doctors because they don't know whats going on with the person. Many people that are diagnosed with BPD later in life end up being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder aka ptsd. You can ask one doctor what the symptoms are for BPD and you'll get a long long list but then you can go to another and they'll have another list that is just as long and so on and so on...anyways the idea behind BPD is that the patient is showing such a huge aray of symptoms that the doctor can't pin point whats up. Kinda does sound like D. The lable BPD is currently under review with the idea of removing it as a diagnosis.
In other words the doctor is saying that he/she doesn't know whats up with your friend and I'll bet neither does D. Its worth a shot to look into the diagnostic criteria for ptsd and see if she fits that better.
Seasons
You mentioned a list of symptoms under the BPD criteria. This diagnosis is still up in the air with the mental health professionals because it isn't considered a "real" diagnosis.....among many professionals its considered a cop out for doctors because they don't know whats going on with the person. Many people that are diagnosed with BPD later in life end up being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder aka ptsd. You can ask one doctor what the symptoms are for BPD and you'll get a long long list but then you can go to another and they'll have another list that is just as long and so on and so on...anyways the idea behind BPD is that the patient is showing such a huge aray of symptoms that the doctor can't pin point whats up. Kinda does sound like D. The lable BPD is currently under review with the idea of removing it as a diagnosis.
In other words the doctor is saying that he/she doesn't know whats up with your friend and I'll bet neither does D. Its worth a shot to look into the diagnostic criteria for ptsd and see if she fits that better.
Seasons
Redhead23
10-31-2003, 08:05 AM
Thanks for the information, yeah it does sound like kind of the therapist admitting defeat saying "OK I give up here you go, have a label", although as I said before D was the one who printed out the information and requested the diagnosis, her therapist at the time was happy just keeping her in therapy with or without a "label".
I definitely wasn't aware of how vague the whole thing was, thanks so much for the information :)
PTSD doesn't sound very likely, when she read that traumatic experiences and abuse could trigger BPD she did say she had no such thing (and that is something her therapists had been digging around for for a long time), she did have a "cold" relationship with her mother and never felt loved as much as her younger sister but no abuse, rape or other traumatic events.
[This message has been edited by Redhead23 (edited 10-31-2003).]
I definitely wasn't aware of how vague the whole thing was, thanks so much for the information :)
PTSD doesn't sound very likely, when she read that traumatic experiences and abuse could trigger BPD she did say she had no such thing (and that is something her therapists had been digging around for for a long time), she did have a "cold" relationship with her mother and never felt loved as much as her younger sister but no abuse, rape or other traumatic events.
[This message has been edited by Redhead23 (edited 10-31-2003).]
Kay33
10-31-2003, 11:19 AM
My sister was friends for a time w/a woman who was 'manic' I don't know if she was ever dx'd w/BPD or not. She was on disability due to mental illness and I don't doubt that she was truly ill, but it became a nightmare for my sister to be friends w/her. She took complete advantage of my sister's good nature. Borrowing things, constantly asking favors, looking to be 'treated' to meals out, inviting herself over, insulting my sister because she had a 'good life'. Always something in it for her. She spent countless hours (at all hours) on the phone w/her, during a 'manic' phase..listening to her go on and on about the same thing...my sister would call her, while she slept for days, trying to wake her up to take her medication. She's a 'hoarder'..my sister and some others would go to her apt, and clean up, before an inspection from social services, part of obligation to continue receiving aid. She asked my sister to lie for her and sign a form to show that she 'worked' for my sister as a babysitter--totally bogus, she refused....all these ploys, while she was working the system. She's been on every medication out there, nothing seems to work..the doctor has finally said, he cannot help her--shock therapy is her last resort. She won't do that.
I have no doubt she is ill, but I can't help but believe she is more 'functioning' then she lets on-- when there is something SHE really wants ..or wants to do...somehow she's able to push through her illness and get it done. Makes me question her motivation at times. Dont' get me wrong, I've had my share of anxiety/depression, I know it's tough..hell, LIFE is tough.
I just wanted to say...Red, I think you're being a good friend. I can understand when you question certain things she does.
I have no doubt she is ill, but I can't help but believe she is more 'functioning' then she lets on-- when there is something SHE really wants ..or wants to do...somehow she's able to push through her illness and get it done. Makes me question her motivation at times. Dont' get me wrong, I've had my share of anxiety/depression, I know it's tough..hell, LIFE is tough.
I just wanted to say...Red, I think you're being a good friend. I can understand when you question certain things she does.
katie_in_az
10-31-2003, 12:29 PM
Redhead 23
I understand your curiosity about your friend’s personality makeup. I like to profile people based on a presented online narrative. I have no training, so do not make any bets on anything I say. I am an “armchair” profiler as a hobby.
All that any of us can ever know about her is through your words above. So, this post is your verbal portrait of a person you know, a person with some value and talents - who also has some behaviors that puzzle you. It puzzles you that she wants to be excused from some of the primary obligations of an adult - such as earning her own way. You cannot understand why she wants to lie down and be cared for so much that she apparently looks illnesses up, then exaggerates symptoms and may even invent symptoms to get the diagnosis she wants. She has told both you and others that she is doing this.
It has apparently worked for her too. She is on disability, living in a nice home and has spending money. If she goes through enough therapists, no one will have a long-term record on her and expect her to actually work on getting better in therapy, for instance. If she gets better, she will lose the disability, so there is no incentive to get better. She worked hard to get things set up as she wants them and does not want to rock the boat. Ditto not taking meds. You say she has few friends and activities. This is the curse of so many on disability and probably speaks to her chronic depression. (Eleanor Rigby is going thru my head right now)
Now if all of this is true, it is still just my interpretation of what I think you said. Now what is it about her? What might really be wrong? She is a self-declared person with borderline personality disorder. Does she really have it?
A good rule of thumb for several (not all) of the personality disorders is the lie, cheat steal rule. If a person lies, cheats and and/or steals there is a clear character and behavior problem. Behavior problems are in the realm of personality disorders not depression or panic or any of the other symptoms you mentioned. This woman does fit the lie, cheat, steal, rule. This puts her squarely in the anti-social, narcissistic, borderline and histrionic group of personality disorders. Your description of her cutting sounds more like the fashion today among a lot of Goth-style wannabee folks, than the hardcore cutting of true self-harming, self-mutilating borderline symptoms (not that a lot of Goths don’t take pride in the borderline diagnosis and deserve it, a lot don’t, but try cutting as an “in” thing anyway. -I got this info from online sites on the subject- so what do I really know?). I think her attitude toward therapists is a bit BPO. She listens and talks about them until they set a boundary, then she dumpes them. But this does not appear to be true of her romantic relationships or at least you don't mention it.
I would also look at other diagnoses in this group. The first one that jumps out at me based on the info you give so far is Narcissistic personality disorder. She does seem to be very self-centered and demanding. Even if she is not using her talents and skills, she wants you to know about them. She seems to care about appearances even if she does not always have them the way she wants. She is apparently quite lacking in insight. After all she shared her disability fantasies and lies with you – probably without regard for how you and other hardworking – never give up types, would react. My guess based on the info so far would be generalized personality disorder with narcissistic features. People with this complex of behaviors are immature and slippery. They lie, cheat and steal to preserve their image and get things they want.
Does she loathe herself and tell you she does? (BPDO) What kind of risky behaviors does she have? shoplifting, excessive drinking, risky sex, fast driving? (BPDO and anti-social). Is she sexy dressing, acting? (HPDO) She is histrionic in the banage and show routine. Many cutters hide rather than show, so more needs to be known.
I do not know of very much good literature on personality disorders. There are websites that have educational articles on all the mental illnesses and personality disorders. There you can read the descriptions of each personality disorder. Borderline personality disorder is the popular one now and the rest tend to be neglected.
The whole area of personality disorders is problematic. They are not axis I psychiatric disorders, they are CHARACTER disorders whcih present above and beyond axis I disorders. There is another good post on this thread about BPO. check it out.
I understand your curiosity about your friend’s personality makeup. I like to profile people based on a presented online narrative. I have no training, so do not make any bets on anything I say. I am an “armchair” profiler as a hobby.
All that any of us can ever know about her is through your words above. So, this post is your verbal portrait of a person you know, a person with some value and talents - who also has some behaviors that puzzle you. It puzzles you that she wants to be excused from some of the primary obligations of an adult - such as earning her own way. You cannot understand why she wants to lie down and be cared for so much that she apparently looks illnesses up, then exaggerates symptoms and may even invent symptoms to get the diagnosis she wants. She has told both you and others that she is doing this.
It has apparently worked for her too. She is on disability, living in a nice home and has spending money. If she goes through enough therapists, no one will have a long-term record on her and expect her to actually work on getting better in therapy, for instance. If she gets better, she will lose the disability, so there is no incentive to get better. She worked hard to get things set up as she wants them and does not want to rock the boat. Ditto not taking meds. You say she has few friends and activities. This is the curse of so many on disability and probably speaks to her chronic depression. (Eleanor Rigby is going thru my head right now)
Now if all of this is true, it is still just my interpretation of what I think you said. Now what is it about her? What might really be wrong? She is a self-declared person with borderline personality disorder. Does she really have it?
A good rule of thumb for several (not all) of the personality disorders is the lie, cheat steal rule. If a person lies, cheats and and/or steals there is a clear character and behavior problem. Behavior problems are in the realm of personality disorders not depression or panic or any of the other symptoms you mentioned. This woman does fit the lie, cheat, steal, rule. This puts her squarely in the anti-social, narcissistic, borderline and histrionic group of personality disorders. Your description of her cutting sounds more like the fashion today among a lot of Goth-style wannabee folks, than the hardcore cutting of true self-harming, self-mutilating borderline symptoms (not that a lot of Goths don’t take pride in the borderline diagnosis and deserve it, a lot don’t, but try cutting as an “in” thing anyway. -I got this info from online sites on the subject- so what do I really know?). I think her attitude toward therapists is a bit BPO. She listens and talks about them until they set a boundary, then she dumpes them. But this does not appear to be true of her romantic relationships or at least you don't mention it.
I would also look at other diagnoses in this group. The first one that jumps out at me based on the info you give so far is Narcissistic personality disorder. She does seem to be very self-centered and demanding. Even if she is not using her talents and skills, she wants you to know about them. She seems to care about appearances even if she does not always have them the way she wants. She is apparently quite lacking in insight. After all she shared her disability fantasies and lies with you – probably without regard for how you and other hardworking – never give up types, would react. My guess based on the info so far would be generalized personality disorder with narcissistic features. People with this complex of behaviors are immature and slippery. They lie, cheat and steal to preserve their image and get things they want.
Does she loathe herself and tell you she does? (BPDO) What kind of risky behaviors does she have? shoplifting, excessive drinking, risky sex, fast driving? (BPDO and anti-social). Is she sexy dressing, acting? (HPDO) She is histrionic in the banage and show routine. Many cutters hide rather than show, so more needs to be known.
I do not know of very much good literature on personality disorders. There are websites that have educational articles on all the mental illnesses and personality disorders. There you can read the descriptions of each personality disorder. Borderline personality disorder is the popular one now and the rest tend to be neglected.
The whole area of personality disorders is problematic. They are not axis I psychiatric disorders, they are CHARACTER disorders whcih present above and beyond axis I disorders. There is another good post on this thread about BPO. check it out.
Seesthru
02-12-2004, 10:55 AM
What ever happened to this story?
Redhead23
02-13-2004, 08:39 AM
It's not a story, but my friend's life we're talking about here.
I have in the meantime learned a lot more about BPD and from others who closely know "boardies", I have learned that it is fairly common for people with BPD to start "adopting" other disorders as well (like part of trying to find something to *identify* with), and to attempt to become a "perfect" borderliner (i.e. start behaviour that wasn't present before, but fits the diagnostic criteria).
Our common friend has also explained to me that D does indeed manipulate and reject people, as she often seems to involve her in unnecessary quarrels about things like not ringing her exactly when she said she would, and she is also constantly falling out with (and thus hating/rejecting) most of her other friends. I guess I was just never receptive for her manipulation attempts? :)
I have seen her since (and will be visiting my country again in May) and she is doing fine, since she does not have to work any more since the diagnosis and can spend her time on hobbies, writing and so on and has not suffered with depression since.
I have in the meantime learned a lot more about BPD and from others who closely know "boardies", I have learned that it is fairly common for people with BPD to start "adopting" other disorders as well (like part of trying to find something to *identify* with), and to attempt to become a "perfect" borderliner (i.e. start behaviour that wasn't present before, but fits the diagnostic criteria).
Our common friend has also explained to me that D does indeed manipulate and reject people, as she often seems to involve her in unnecessary quarrels about things like not ringing her exactly when she said she would, and she is also constantly falling out with (and thus hating/rejecting) most of her other friends. I guess I was just never receptive for her manipulation attempts? :)
I have seen her since (and will be visiting my country again in May) and she is doing fine, since she does not have to work any more since the diagnosis and can spend her time on hobbies, writing and so on and has not suffered with depression since.
Twinfawn
02-19-2004, 03:51 AM
My 15 year old niece has been diagnosised with BD and she has the exact same symptoms...So yes to your question, I do believe she has it...My niece acts just like her in so many ways......actually every way except for she is to young to have a job...
samicat
03-30-2004, 05:04 PM
I know this is kind of an old thread, but I'll reply anyway just in case you read it. I am working towards my doctorate in clinical psychology and have done a lot of research (on bpd) and seen many cases of bpd. I couldn't diagnose your friend based on a post but I would bet a lot of money on the fact that she has bpd. She may also have multiple diagnoses such as major depression or dysthymia. She also has some symptoms of mania, but that could be a manifestation of the bpd. All of the behaviors you're describing are very typical of BPD especially changing therapists all of the time. It is extremely difficult to treat because patients with bpd often terminate therapy. There is a very effective therapy called didactic behavioral therapy that works well with borderlines. I would suggest you check out Marsha Linehan's website for more info on bpd and how to treat it. They are very difficult people to be friends with but you have to remember that these are ingrained coping styles and behaviors that they have developed and it's not you! It takes a very patient, non-defensive person to be friends with one so I give you props for sticking it out with her because she really does need friends and people who support her.
Redhead23
03-31-2004, 05:27 AM
Thanks samicat - I do live in another country and only see her once or twice a year, but I will definitely check out the resources you suggested and possibly try and translate them for your mutual friend, who has a much harder time coping with D's habits (since she sees her a lot more often than I do).
emma72
04-12-2004, 01:13 AM
Just a note for you from someone who lived with a mother who was diagnosed with BPD. Your friend seems to have all the signs. I would only hope - for her sake and for everyone around her - that she is making it up. However, making up her symptoms even speaks to BPD. Their need for constant attention is enough to drive them to manipulate whatever and whomever they can to ensure they will continue to receive as much focus on them as possible.
Good luck to your friend.
Good luck to your friend.
Redhead23
04-13-2004, 06:54 AM
"However, making up her symptoms even speaks to BPD. Their need for constant attention is enough to drive them to manipulate whatever and whomever they can to ensure they will continue to receive as much focus on them as possible. "
Thanks, that is the impression I have gained from others who also have friends and relatives with BPD.
I will be seeing her again very soon, and she seems to be in good spirits :)
Thanks, that is the impression I have gained from others who also have friends and relatives with BPD.
I will be seeing her again very soon, and she seems to be in good spirits :)
Jennita
04-13-2004, 03:48 PM
Redhead, I'm no therapist here but it does sound like she is craving the attention/love she felt she never got from her mom. She was always in competition for attention/love and that continued into her adult life no doubt. Not working for herself ,but instead, having someone or something that will take care of her or nuture her seems to be her greatest wish. Like you mentioned, she wished she had some disease, either physical or mental, and that would successfully enable her to be labled someone who NEEDS attention and care, not simply someone who wants it; this would cause other people/professionals/friends etc. to give her that attention and care.....so she ends up getting what she wants by being "sick". I really think that's all there is....some people cannot live without feeling loved or cared for, and your friend has found the way to impose that. But who can blame her if she didn't receive what she needed from mom.
She probably needs to deeply resolve the issues with her mom, either accept that her sister was more loved and move on to the possibility of future love from others, or maybe express to mom her pain and see if mom maybe just didn't realize the favoritism she showed with the sister....perhaps your friend was more loved than she thought.
At any rate, labeling herself with a mental disorder she may not have could lead to consequences she doesn't realize yet that would not be worth it all.
She probably needs to deeply resolve the issues with her mom, either accept that her sister was more loved and move on to the possibility of future love from others, or maybe express to mom her pain and see if mom maybe just didn't realize the favoritism she showed with the sister....perhaps your friend was more loved than she thought.
At any rate, labeling herself with a mental disorder she may not have could lead to consequences she doesn't realize yet that would not be worth it all.
cth
05-29-2004, 06:48 PM
I hate to say this, but your friend really does sound like she has BPD. Most BPD persons are very needy and are very big attention seekers. The leukemia thing sounds like a secret death wish. It is amazing what a BPD will do for attention. As for the cutting, Many BPDs cut just for the attention. Some do not. You can look on the web for the 9 diagnostic criteria for BPD. I know alot about this junk cause I have BPD or so they tell me. cth
angel_in_disguise
06-29-2004, 11:31 AM
Hi Redhead :wave: your friend is lucky to have such a caring friend like you. i've read through your post and i had one thing in my mind that fits very well to the behaviour that your friend is showing. i'm not the right person to diagnose your friend but it seems like she is showing a typical characteristic of a person having this rare and not so commonly heard personality disorder called Munchausen Syndrome (not the other kind which is Munchausen Syndrome by proxy). if you look at it on the internet you will find alot of info about it. but generally from what i have read, many patients with Munchausen syndrome show features of borderline personality disorder and patients often have histories of difficult childhood relationships with parents. They are usually loners with an early childhood background of trauma and deprivation and they are unable to establish close interpersonal relationships. Munchausen syndrome is the most severe and chronic form of factitious disorder and people with this kind of disorder feign, exaggerate, or actually self-induce illnesses to win attention and nurturance that they feel unable to obtain in any other way. They usually prefer the "sick role" and almost always moves restlessly from physician to physician and hospital to hospital and because of this they are typically detected rather than diagnosed. It is usually very difficult to treat people with this syndrome because they will go to some lengths to avoid being detected and they may also become hostile and aggressive if confronted. obviously your friend needs help and alot of it, not just psychological but also emotional.
-Angel :angel:
-Angel :angel:
cth
07-10-2004, 08:29 PM
Hi, I was diagnosed with BPD 6 yrs. ago. I cried for 2 hrs because I found the diagnosis so devastating. Last yr. I became petrified to work. The pdoc put me in day hospitalization for a few weeks and I stayed home for a few months. I begged fo disability because I was so afraid. She eventually said ok, but wanted me to try work again. I have been working for a yr. thanks to her and my therapist. To fake a questionnare to get disability sounds borderline. Bulemia and anorexia can be part of borderline. BUT, and this I am no expert on, your friend sounds bipolar or worse there are 2 psych diagnosis which essentially mean someone is faking. [cannot remember the names]. It seems you are angry at her. She is sick one way or another, even if she is faking. cth :rolleyes: