Hi and Happy Thankgiving.We recently took our son to a child psychiatrist because at the highest dose of concerta he was still not focusing and having trouble with his moods. She told us he had the mildest level of bi polar type 2 and put him on zyprexa zygis.He takes it at night and it seems to be working. I know this sounds terrible but we were so happy to hear his problem had a name.He is doing better with his focusing and behavior.He is still on Concerta during the day for his adhd.She also told us that Straterra was not a good match for our son as he had the mood disorder and it was putting him way into
the manic mode.He had a terrible time on straterra although I am sure it is great for other people.Just wanted to express our relief and pleasure to know he is going to be alright.Thanks for listening.

Glad things are going better for your son. It seems that most people who have any form of bipolar don't tend to do very well on strattera.

Hi free spirit.We were totally shocked when the doc told us our son had bipolar.But so glad to know why the use of straterra was such a disaster for him.She described
his behavior on straterra to a tee.Anyway this new med seems to be helping and I thank you for you kind words.

Lots of kids diagnosed ADHD really have bipolar disorder, some have it along with the ADHD. It's much more common than people realize. It's really good that you caught it at a young age. Is he in therapy? Bipolar type II is the mainly depressive type correct? That's the type my brother has, along with ADHD and some other issues.

Have you been able to get extra accomodations for him at school due to his bipolar?

Would you mind sharing a bit of what strattera was like for your son? I have the subtype of ADD that is a lot like bipolar and my short trial on strattera was a disaster to say the least.

Bipolar type II is the mainly depressive type correct?



Bi-polar II is rapid cycling which makes it 'look' a lot like AD/HD. With bi-polar type two, mood can fluctuate as quick as hourly, daily, or weekly; however, with traditional bi-polar type one, mood fluctuates in monthly increments. *Usually* 4 months manic, 4 months 'normal', and 4 months depressed.

Bi-polar II is rapid cycling which makes it 'look' a lot like AD/HD. With bi-polar type two, mood can fluctuate as quick as hourly, daily, or weekly; however, with traditional bi-polar type one, mood fluctuates in monthly increments. *Usually* 4 months manic, 4 months 'normal', and 4 months depressed.

Bipolar II is NOT rapid cycling brain fog... It is primarily depression. People with Bipolar II experience depression and hypomania rather than full blown mania.

Where did you get the idea that Bipolar II is rapid cycling?



http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/bipolar_disorder.htm

Bipolar II is NOT rapid cycling brain fog... It is primarily depression. People with Bipolar II experience depression and hypomania rather than full blown mania.


There are different "variants" of Bi-polar II, and yes rapid cycling is very much "a variant". In fact, Bi-polar II rapid cycling, is the main "variant" that makes Bi-polar so difficult from distinguishing from AD/HD. Besides that subtype, Bi-polar disorder 'looks' nothing like AD/HD.

The reason it is hard to distinguish from AD/HD, is mood swings in Bi-Polar II rapid-cycling and AD/HD aren't extremely dramatic, they're just "unstable". Meaning, someone with rapid cycling Bi-Polar II, never goes full manic, or never goes into a deep major depressive episode, they just 'toggle' inbetween major depression, depression, some-what normal, and happy, rapidly, and sometimes as quick as by the hour, just like some subtypes of AD/HD can appear.

Futhermore, a subtype of AD/HD called "Ring of Fire" is thought of by Dr. Amen to be the beginning of a *type of manic depression.

Hi free spirit. Our son has an iep and is in a self contained classroom with mainstreaming for social studies and science.He is very bright but the small size of the self contained classroom helps him with his adhd and his moods.When on straterra he was a different child.He would want to hurt people if they annoyed him( fortunately he only verbalized this), he would act very manic in retrospect)laughing out loud,and eventually telling the children they were satan. He would never even conceive of this normally. That only happened once and we took him off the straterra.We have him seeing a child therapist for coping with frustrations,etc.and a child psychiatrist for meds.We were told he has the mildest level of bipolar 2 which is just above the average person with a typical cycle of moods as we all have.He is not manic depressive but for someone with his problem straterra put him in the manic state hence the calling people names and wanting to hurt them.He was not able to control his moods.We were so frustrated that even the medical doctor stated there was something wrong as the concerta was at the highest level and the focusing still was not there.The psychiatrist stated that with someone with an additional condition other than just add,ritalin will also react in not a normal fashion which is exactly what happened to us.It made our son more hyper. He is now a bit tired after taking the new med but is doing much better Oh yes we were told that as hormones kick in we would have had a more difficult time with his mood disorder.He is now 10yrs old.hope this helps to answer your question.Have a great day.

As for the person who asked what effect Strattera has on individuals with Bipolar, it usually has a tendency to send them into Mania, which is what your son has experienced.

Brainfog.. my point was that Bipolar II does not mean rapid cycling... and I am fully aware of of Dr. Amens ADD types. BTW many forms of bipolar disorder in children look like ADHD because most times bipolar disorder does not show up in kids the same way it shows up in adults.

Sounds almost exactly like the reaction I had to it. Good to hear your son's school is being helpful.

free~spirit

You mentioned that you have the 'ring of fire' subtype of ADHD. Did you have a SPECT scan done? I have not encountered anyone before who had that subtype and I am simply curious. The SPECT scan for that subtype appears to me (or course - what do I know) to be quite unique compared to the scans for the other subtypes of ADD and ADHD. While the other ADD scans showed underactivity - if I remember correctly - the 'ring of fire' ADD scans showed overactivity.

free~spirit

You mentioned that you have the 'ring of fire' subtype of ADHD. Did you have a SPECT scan done? I have not encountered anyone before who had that subtype and I am simply curious. The SPECT scan for that subtype appears to me (or course - what do I know) to be quite unique compared to the scans for the other subtypes of ADD and ADHD. While the other ADD scans showed underactivity - if I remember correctly - the 'ring of fire' ADD scans showed overactivity.
I do not believe that I ever heard of ring of fire pertaining to adhd.Can you tell me what it is? Thanks.

AFAIK according to Dr Amen, "Ring of Fire" is when you show 3 or more (or is it more than 3?) types of AD/HD (have a look on his site which you can find doing a google search for amen clinic).

However I am not sure whether this is generally accepted terminology, nor do I know whether this is not just a case of one Dr. deciding that mixed state Bipolar is actually a form of AD/HD.

It's interesting to hear that so many bipolar folks have trouble on Strattera - I was afraid of that before I started since I'm mildly bipolar (for the most part I only ever become manic on antidepressants) and it sounded anti-depressant-ish even though the TV ad insists that it's not. I haven't had any problems with it personally, though - guess I lucked out :)

free~spirit

You mentioned that you have the 'ring of fire' subtype of ADHD. Did you have a SPECT scan done? I have not encountered anyone before who had that subtype and I am simply curious. The SPECT scan for that subtype appears to me (or course - what do I know) to be quite unique compared to the scans for the other subtypes of ADD and ADHD. While the other ADD scans showed underactivity - if I remember correctly - the 'ring of fire' ADD scans showed overactivity.


I haven't had a SPECT scan but had a full evaluation. Ring of Fire is a term for when a. there are 3 or more subtypes of ADD present b. there is a specific set of symptoms

Ring of Fire symptoms are:

is angry or aggressive

is sensitive to noise, light, clothes or touch

undergoes frequent or cyclic mood changes (highs and lows)

demands to have his or her way, even when told no multiple times

has periods of mean, nasty, or insensitive behavior

has periods of increased talkativeness

has periods of increased impulsivity

displays unpredictable behavior

way of thinking is grandoise or larger than life

talks fast

feels that thoughts go fast

appears anxious or fearful


Some think that this is an indicator of future bipolar disorder, in some cases the behavior is equivilant to bipolar disorder but with added symptoms of ADHD such as inattentiveness, hyperactivity, or impulsivity that is persistant and is not part of a depressive or manic episode.

It's interesting to hear that so many bipolar folks have trouble on Strattera - I was afraid of that before I started since I'm mildly bipolar (for the most part I only ever become manic on antidepressants) and it sounded anti-depressant-ish even though the TV ad insists that it's not. I haven't had any problems with it personally, though - guess I lucked out :)
I think Atomoxetine HCL is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and works similar to (or supportive of) Wellbutrin, so there seem to be some similarities with antidepressants.

i think parents nowdays need to stop medicating their kids, because your just making your poor child worse! do you not realize that children are naturally hyper and misbehaved?? seriously, not EVERY child is ADHD or bipolar because they are hyper and ont like to study. for the love of God, try talking to your kid and really asking them how they feel and whats wrong and work with that. too many people today are medicating their kids for no reason.

freespirt-
can you tell me where I can read about ring of fire? thanx

freespirt-
can you tell me where I can read about ring of fire? you sound like me and they told my parents that I have adhd and something called border line personnallity. thanx

I'm about to leave for work but I'll post some sources and info on all ADHD subtypes later on today.

Borderline personality disorder has a lot to do with how you relate to others, relationships etc etc. Symptoms of impulsivity are alike but Ring of Fire isn't borderline so you really need to do some research to make sure you have a correct diagnosis.

This is borderline:
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

(3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self

(4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, Substance Abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(5) recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

(6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

(7) chronic feelings of emptiness

(8) inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

(9) transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

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As you can see, very different, do you have those symptoms or do you think you are just ADHD?