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MJ ~ TMJ
11-26-2003, 10:51 PM
I there! This is my first post, but I've been reading this board for a while. I've read a lot and I just don't know what to do!

I just saw Dr. Piper for two days of test including CatScan and MRI. I have seen the images and he has explained what he wants to do. It all makes sence to me. Here's the bad part . . . he wants to do Arthroplasty, Meniscectomy, and Fat Grafts. From what I read here, I'm not sure this is a good idea.

Anyone else see Dr. Piper? Good results? Bad results?

Any suggestions?

Any ideas who to see for a second opinion?

TIA!!

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DianeTMJ
11-26-2003, 11:33 PM
Hi Tia :wave:
Welcome to the board!
I have bumped up some previous topcis about surgery for you to read.

I have not had surgery, so I am not experienced nor knowledgable enough. There are many here who can discuss surgery though.

The one thing I do know about surgery on the TMJ's is that they are typically not successful and only cause further pain and problems. There was a post, that I will try and find about an article written all the way back in 1958 in the American medical journal, that surgery on the joints should not take place until there has been trauma to the joint/joints, ie car accident, etc etc.

I wish you luck, there are lots of wonderful people on this board that can help you better with your questions. Just Ask, Ask, Ask. Ask the surgeon to speak with a minimum of 6 patients, successful and not successful, AND for those that are POST surgery by at least 6 years.
Take care
Diane TMJ

DianeTMJ
11-26-2003, 11:44 PM
Hello again Tia -
I bumped up a couple of other ones too for you to read through.
Take care
Diane TMJ

mdla
11-27-2003, 02:39 AM
I there! This is my first post, but I've been reading this board for a while. I've read a lot and I just don't know what to do!

I just saw Dr. Piper for two days of test including CatScan and MRI. I have seen the images and he has explained what he wants to do. It all makes sence to me. Here's the bad part . . . he wants to do Arthroplasty, Meniscectomy, and Fat Grafts. From what I read here, I'm not sure this is a good idea.

Anyone else see Dr. Piper? Good results? Bad results?

Any suggestions?

Any ideas who to see for a second opinion?

TIA!!

Here is my question, *exactly* what did the MRI & Cat scan show that prompts him to think you need a drastic surgery. Also, I would ask to talk with former patients of his. Did he mention that TMJ surgeries have a high failure rate? That bit of info should come from him, not just us.

MJ ~ TMJ
11-27-2003, 12:33 PM
Thanks for the quick replies!

I'm out of town for a few days and will post more details when I return.

Thanks again!

MJ ~ TMJ
11-29-2003, 06:48 PM
Diane TMJ - Thank you for the "bumps"! It is good to see that there are at least a few with positive results.

Here are some of my details . . .
Left TMJ -
Disc Displacement=Severe/Lateral ("bad side of town")
Disc Recapture=None
Disc Degeneration=Severe
Effusion / Condylar Edema
Avascular Necrosis = Osteochondritis Dissecans
Condyle Shape=Irregular
Condyle Size=Small
And Actively Unstable Bone and Soft Tissue

Right TMJ -
Disc Displacement=Severe/Lateral ("bad side of town")
Disc Recapture=None
Disc Degeneration=Severe
Effusion / Condylar Edema
Avascular Necrosis = Osteochondritis Dissecans
Condyle Shape=Flat
Condyle Size=Small

Hope some of that makes sence. From what he explained, both my disks have slipped ad are slowing the blood flow to the condyle. One condyle had trama as a teen and did not grow properly, that side has been damaged for a while and now the other side is becoming damaged as well.

I can open my mouth (just not as wide as most people), my bite is way wrong, I can't chew much, I get headaches, and my jaw just hurt all the time!

I know from reading that there are many of you that have it a lot worse then me. I feel so bad for you!!

Oh . . . and the good news . . . my insurance coves NOTHING!!!

Hope some one has some ideas for me! It's great to hear from people who have "been there - done that!"

TIA

MJ ~ TMJ
11-29-2003, 06:52 PM
Oh, I forgot . . .

Dr says he has been do this surgery for 7 years with a 1% failure rate. He said about 400 surgeries. And they would be more then happy to let me talk to others that had this surgery.

mdla
11-29-2003, 10:04 PM
Tia,

What type of health insurance do you have, some states mandate policys cover life altering medical conditions.....check out below......

In Masella u. Blue Cross & Blue Shield of Connecticut (United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, 1991), plaintiff was diagnosed in 1985 as suffering from temporo. mandibular joint dysfunction or TMJ, a painful disorder of the jaw joint. As a result, she received non-surgical treatment, including biofeedback and an orthotic, an appliance that fit on the plaintiff's teeth and was intended to reposition part of her jaw joint. When the plaintiff submitted the claims to her insurer for payment, they were rejected. The basis for the insurer’s declining the claims was that the treatment was dental in nature (rather than medical) and was thus excluded from coverage under the relevant health insurance policies. The plaintiff then commenced an action seeking to recover the denied benefits. After the trial court found in favor of the plaintiff, the insurer appealed. The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit affirmed, ruling that TMJ was a medical, rather than a dental disorder and was covered under the relevant policies

Cymy Sue
11-30-2003, 09:10 AM
Hi TIA,

I understand the "Details" of your condition, mine was similiar.
The theory is, my TM Joint problems was caused or started by birth damage.
I had a couple of orthognathic procedures back in the 80's prior to MRI's and tomograms being used for diagnostics and of course these surgeries did not help.
After I had MRI's and Tomograms, in 89, my report read similiar to yours.

I had auricular (ear) cartilage disc replacements in 92. They held up about 2 years. I had been told that in the future if these failed, other autogenous grafts would be done. I managed until 97 and when I went back, they said that none of these grafts were holding up long enough to justify doing them. This included cartilage, muscle, dermal or fat grafts. 2-5 years was the "life" expectancy for any of these grafts. I had a discectomy with no replacements.

In the last few months, we've had 3 or 4 new members who have seen this Doctor and ask questions about the grafts he's doing.
I've researched everything possible and can not find any information regarding these types of grafts "Now" working or most important, lasting. (I do find some surgeons are using fat graphs with metal implants to help the body to adjust to the synthetic material. )

I find that not only my former surgeons, but the majority do not do these types of grafts anymore. They do work to start with, but they wear out.

I was under the impression that this surgery was on it's way out due to failures.
I would be interested to know if the type grafts this Doctor uses do last longer than 5 years.
I can't find any information to support this. My experience and everything I read is, they don't last.

I would never tell anyone to not have a surgery that could help them. I would suggest finding out more about this procedure and if it is one that will have to be redone. I would find out exactly what he means by a 1% failure rate. Does it mean that 1% of the intial surgeries don't work or 1% fail after several years.
I would ask how many years he expected these grafts to hold up and exact numbers on how many has to be redone in 2-5 years.

The problem I have with this is, if this is working and the grafts hold up indefinitely, "WHY" is this Doctor the only one that we're hearing about doing them. Why are discectomies without replacements becoming the surgery of choice for people with unsalvageable disc. I really believe if this procedure was the "Cure" and the end to TMJ disc problems, Surgeons everywhere would be doing it all day, every day. There are thousands of people with very bad disc problems and if these grafts truly work and hold up, this would be the answer for them. There are many gifted surgeons who can do this procedure. The surgery is not bad and recovery is quick, compared to others I've had.
I had a very well-known and excellent surgeon for my grafts. He did the procedure perfectly, I had very little post-op pain and felt great for almost 2 years. Then the grafts started to deteriorate and I was right back where I started.

There is very little doubt that deteriorated disc, displaced laterally, usually have to come out.
Also, a discectomy without replacements is not a perfect solution and it does take time to recover. But you can recover and live without disc.

It would be wonderful, even miraculous, if this procedure would be the answer for those of us with disc that cannot be repaired.
I wish we could hear from someone who had it 7 or 10 years ago and they were still doing well.

I guess deciding to have this done would depend on if you are willing to possibly have more surgeries in the future. I don't believe any surgeon will guarantee these grafts will hold up forever. I would find out what to expect in a couple of years.

If you decide to have this surgery, I do wish you the best,
Cymy Sue

MJ ~ TMJ
11-30-2003, 01:11 PM
mdla - my insurance excludes tmj problems. The company says they only cover tmj in statres where it is mandated. I live in FL . . . I have to see if I can get a list of states where it is mandated. I worried though, now I have "pre-existing" condition.

Cymy Sue - THANK YOU!! Thanks for replying. From what I read, you've really been through a lot and I value your opinion.

Have have many questions that I need to ask the Dr. The way I understand it, if the fat does breakdown at least my jaw will be stabalized. Kinda like, if the fat works GREAT, if not - well at least we tried. Like I said got to make a big list of questions. Also I need to talk to others that have had this done.

I will keep you posted!

Thanks, TIA!

mdla
11-30-2003, 09:29 PM
mdla - my insurance excludes tmj problems. The company says they only cover tmj in statres where it is mandated. I live in FL . . . I have to see if I can get a list of states where it is mandated. I worried though, now I have "pre-existing" condition.

Cymy Sue - THANK YOU!! Thanks for replying. From what I read, you've really been through a lot and I value your opinion.

Have have many questions that I need to ask the Dr. The way I understand it, if the fat does breakdown at least my jaw will be stabalized. Kinda like, if the fat works GREAT, if not - well at least we tried. Like I said got to make a big list of questions. Also I need to talk to others that have had this done.

I will keep you posted!

Thanks, TIA!


The ? about preexisting condition, I think, is did anyone on record diagnois you with TMJ disorder Before you purchased your current insurance plan. It would be worth the while to take some time to do the reseach on the what the laws are in FLA, forexample, it took me a year but I did get almost 1/2 back from a 1,500 splint. My surgery was a different story, I olny got back about 20%, but its better than nothing. I figure they paid just enough so I couldn't make a rucus.





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