A friend of mine told me to get accupunture directly in the muscles. She said her doc(chinese) would then turn the needles and that this was also painfull but it helped. She says she has now had no pain for a month after having had this treatment twice weekly for that long? Does anyone know whether this is safe and could it help more than regular accupunture in the pressure points?

I've just returned from acupuncture training in China and can confirm that this is acceptable - the point described is most probably an 'ashi point', also called 'reflexing points', 'unfixed points' or 'tender spots'. This was actually the primary method for point selection in early acupuncture and moxibustion treatment. Without specific names and definite locations, Ashi Points are considered to represent the earliest stage of acupuncture point evolution. Clinically, they are mostly used for pain syndromes.

Thanks Martyn,
You sound like you know your stuff. I may try this and will let you know how it goes. Can it be helpful for cervical disc bulges that impinge the spinal cord and associated pain? Sounds like it would help anything!

Acupuncture (or Traditional Chinese Medicine) should not be looked at in the same way as Western Medicine. Acupuncture has developed over thousands of years by man (and woman!!!, no sexist comments here on this webpage) observing themselves, their surroundings and the interplay between themselves and their surroundings. To me, it's not about health or disease, etc, it's about life itself - an understanding of life itself - and therefore logically it has the potential to aid any situation we face in life.
Sorry - I could go on all day but hopefully that says in a roundabout way the answer you were after.

[This message has been edited by moderator3 (edited 08-14-2001).]

Hi Martyn,

Thanks for your advice. I am going to try this soon. Its funny that since starting accupunture I missed a week or so and am now feeling very out of sorts. I'm sure my body is trying to tell me something here so I am going to listen.
Mel

I know what you mean.....my interest in the 'alternative side' and especially acupuncture came about through running when I was training either 100 mile weeks (in the bad old days!!!...for me anyway) or recently 20-30 miles a week but at a very high intensity. I found very quickly that reflexology (I was training to be a reflexologist at the time) and more recently acupuncture had very subtle but very distinct effects upon recovery times between sessions and overall development of training. I found that small niggles, soreness and tiredness all improved at a quicker rate than normal (I would have reflexology about once per week and since completing acupuncture training give self-acupuncture about 3-4 times per week on specific areas).

Obviously an argument could be made to the training effect and my bodies natural improvement explaining the overall improvements however:

1. I'm fully aware of the training effects from a theoretical and practical point of view.

2. Theoretically I have a sports science degree, ACSM Health and Fitness Instructor and Ex Royal Marines PTI trained.

3. Practically I have been training at middle distance athletics and running in general for 15 years and completed Royal Marine Training. The athletic training has included 100 mile weeks and fast intensive work on the track.

Now while it may seem like I'm trying to blow my own trumpet here(!!), the actually aim was to show that I have quite a good understanding/experience of how I feel when training intensively and that the advances I have made recently have definitely been partly due to the therapies and not just the natural training effect.......and eventually reaching a relevant comment to your entry Mel333 (sorry it took me so long) regular usage does have continuous effects but (and I'm talking about non-specific illness/injury usage here) it tends to be very subtle and you only notice after you've stopped using it for a while. So yes,.....I know what you mean!!

O and let me know how the acupuncture works next time...especially if the practitioner uses ashi points.

Hi Martyn,
What actually are ashi points (exuse me ignorance only learning still)and do you recommend reflexology for headaches/ back pain or specific injury. I am wondering whether the needles in the muscles will be more effective for pain releif. Too chicken to have this as yet. Wanted your advice here. I wondered if accupunture in specific points could help my insomnia. Too busy at work and uni and have injuires so I find the rebalancing effect (especially if you have an overactive thought process) excellent.
Mel

'Ashi Points' is the name given to areas of tenderness on the body where acupuncture can be applied. They are not fixed - simply being exactly what there definition implies, areas of tenderness within the body.

I always feel it's important to re-discover the understanding of health rather than just learn it. In otherwords find out through personal investigation or meditation why a method of treating the human body works. From the perspective of Chinese medicine thousands of years ago they discovered that palpating, touching or needling tender spots helped relieve the pain. Within the theoretical realms of Chinese medicine pain is due to the stagnation of Qi (loosely defined as energy). Manipulating the area through massage or acupuncture helped relieve the pain - or in otherwords promote the flow of Qi.

Acupuncture is very good for pain relief - especially electro-acupuncture. However, it is important to realise that whilst acupuncture is good for pain relief, if the cause of the pain is not rectified then it will just come back. In otherwords (I'm using that sentence a lot today for some reason!!) the pain might be relieved for a while but if the root cause is not diagnosed and treated, it will keep on coming back.

If the root cause of your headaches/backpain or specific injury is muscular-skeletal disbalance or abnormal alignment then acupuncture is not as effective. However, it is important to remember than Traditional Chinese medicine is not just acupuncture - it incorporates all the approaches towards the health of the human body including diet, herbs, acupuncture, exercise, etc. Tuina is Chinese massage, although whilst it is termed here in the West as massage it is actually more a combination of massage, acupressure (simply defined as acupuncture without the needles - very simply defined!!) and muscular-skeletal manipulation (like osteopathy).

I've just returned from another training visit to China - this time concentrating upon Tuina. I was being trained by a individual called Prof. Wang Jin Zhu - who is the most remarkable individual within the medical world I have ever met. Having over thirty years treating patients he had got to the stage where he litually danced with them so complete was his knowledge - yet being also extremely humble he still studied at least 2 hours a day within the library, studying his own subject in order to improve his techniques. Given his experience, knowledge and standing he could have easily ignored or stood aloof from me - yet he was extremely welcoming, open, helpful, an extremely good teacher and humourous. I'm not sure a man of his position within Western Medicine would have been even half as open and helpful to a student of my equivilent knowledge - no offence meant to any Western Doctor who is. He demonstrated and taught us a number of Tuina techniques for lumbar problems/back pain, hypertension, shoulder and knee pain and, funnily enough insomnia. The technique was mostly massage and acupressure concentrating upon the acupoints around the head. Since returning to England I have tried this on a number of individuals with very good success.

However, summerise an answer to your question - yes, acupuncture can help to treat headaches (with alot of success - especially chronic ones), backpain, and insomnia. However, if the root cause is not treated by the acupuncture then the problem will keep on returning. It is therefore important that you have a full diagnosis. It may discover that the treatment given is actually a combination of acupuncture and Tuina, for example.

Hope this helps, keep me informed.

Oh, and on the question of reflexology and headaches - yes it can work and I've had good success, especially with chronic types.

Good Luck

Hi Martyn,
Thanks for your advice and I will keep trying here. This Dr Wang sounds admirable and informative. Its nice to hear of brilliant people that are humble and willing to learn and teach despite their current knowledge. I am going back for accupunture tommorrow and as I have not been for 3 weeks(too busy) I am in great need of pain relief and taking too amny anti-inflammatories and pain killers(not good). I agree with treating the specific problem and I am having cortosoid steroids in the facet joints to see if this releived this c5/6 bulge. I have noticed improvemts in the tension/migrane headaches which I beleive are neck related with accupunture when I go once a week.I will let you know of progress and I really appreciate your advice.
Mel