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Angel77
01-09-2004, 12:23 AM
This is a frustrating issue. I had my first vaccinated and my second recieved only the first round. By the time his second was due I had the worst gut feeling that it would be bad for him to say the least. So I went on the hunt.
I looked high and low and the research is there. There was one study done in a medical journal on the effects of vaccines and the corralation between everything from SIDS to autism. If you look at some of the vaccine boxes before they were required to change the process you'll note a chemical called thimerisol. I found out what it was....MERCURY!!!! I played it off and asked the nurse and she said there was no way that there would ever be mercury in a vaccine....IT'S DEADLY YA KNOW!!! Duh. Then I showed her the print out containing the definition of it from a medical journal, her face dropped!!
Now if they don't know, how is the public supposed to make an educated decision on what's best for there child. I can't list the exact sites or names of studies here, don't want troubles for breaking any rules.
But I researched for hours every day for almost a month before making my decision. The biggest factors....one study over seas stopped vaccinating kids until they were 18mos old and the death rate in children under 2 dropped almost 80%!!!! Can anyone explain why there's a correlation between the DTaP shot and the increased risk of SIDS in the first 3 days after the vaccine. Can someone tell my friend why she lost her daughter with in hours of her 3rd round when they're totally safe????
Why do you think the military is having probs with people who don't want the anthrax vaccine?? It's because they educated themselves and weighed what they felt were risks vs. benefit. For some, they still choose the vaccine, others opt against it. It's a personal choice....but if you look you will find the research.
Another interesting fact I found is that states do not legally mandate immunizations....but very few people know this because the info is not readily available. And the biggest reason is because if it is mandated as law, then the state is responsible for the possible bad out comes. If they make you think it's law and you don't question, you have no recourse because they'll say ultimately it was your decision.
I don't want to sway anyone either direction.....but I do feel the need to help people educate themselves on both sides and make the decision that best fits their situation.

sailmaven36
01-10-2004, 09:01 PM
Ifyou are noy aware, most if not all vaccines have removed the thimerosol that was in them. If this is what scares you, then you should request thimeroslo free vaccines. The mortality statistics on childhood diseases should definately frighten you.

There is no board policy prohibiting you from posting weblinks to study listings. You have made alot of statements of what you consider to be medical facts. Please back them up with concrete evidence that I can read. If this is for peoples information they should not take anybodies word that what they are saying is true. They should be able to see it in a well designed study, not some web site run by anybody with a computer.

Angel77
01-11-2004, 10:29 AM
I will have to check the sites first to make sure they don't have bulletin boards...I know that's one thing that prohibits listing, is there any more so I don't get in trouble?? I would love to provide the info..I believe people need to have all the info from both sides and choose from there.
As for the thimerisol, there is more out there than most know. It was prohibited in future production, but they did not require a recall of all the vaccinations on the shelf. I called the health department, several pediatricians and asked about the thimerisol..most didn't know what it was, so they grabbed the box and started reading...they swore they had the new batch, but there was still thimerisol.
My son more than likely will start his vaccinations at two years old, once the brain has formed the barrier that helps minimize reactions.
As far as concrete evidence, I don't believe it exists because every group has their own take on things and IMO have ways to tilt the scales a bit. That's why I searched sooo many places including the CDC website. I will check the ones I intitially checked and also make sure they're ok with the mods then would love to post them. And if possible have them put on a sticky. It may take me a couple days, but I will let you know what I find and if it's ok to post you'll see the link.
I'm also curious as to what seems to be a lot of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate or have doubts. I don't know if you're from the medical community or just not sure where to find all the info, but I assure you, most people who choose not to vaccinate do so only after researching it and speaking with their docs.
My ped worked at one of the top childrens hospitals and children were flown there from a tri-state area and she only saw 1-2 kids a month who contracted one of the illnesses "prevented" by vaccines and the rest were by kids who were vaccinated. My biggest problem is that people are lead to believe that their kids are 100% protected when even their own studies show otherwise.
I'm not exact on these number, but really close...about 80% of the cases of these diseases are fully vaccinated children....that makes me doubt the safety and validity of the vaccines.
I don't want to sway anyone either way, I just feel people shouldn't so blindly trust something just because it's been around for awhile. There's been many different cases of a "safe" medical treatment that turns out down the road to have been not safe at all.

ABC~Mom
01-11-2004, 07:17 PM
arghhh...this makes me crazy...(i just need to vent here) i want to do the right thing for my baby ....one day i think i have, the next day i read something here then question what i felt the day before...i dont know what to do anymore....why cant the gov. just say if they are safe...and if they arent then get them safe....why does it have to be so hard to make a decision on vaccinations... i am calling my health dept. i want real answers (i know i know i probably wont get them ) but geez i have to do something i am losing it here!

(this wasnt meant toward anyone here i just needed to get that off my chest)

sailmaven36
01-11-2004, 08:21 PM
I agree with you Winnie, it makes me crazy too. You have the right idea contacting your health department. They will give you the information you need.

As far as listening to these boards keep something in mind. Anybody can say whatever they want, whether it is true or not, and they are not responsible for fact checking what they say. Most of the websites that people who are antivaccination point to are nothing more then opinions. Look at websites put up by professional organizations Like the CDC, National Institutes of health, Medscape, your state or county department of health. See how whenever a professional makes a statement, it is referenced to some study. The name of the study, and journal of its' origin is given so you can evaluate the quality of the statements. Now look at most of the antivaccination websites. They are mostly run by parents who think they have been wronged. Or paramedical people who have a financial stake in continuing the scare. If they reference anything it is usually someone elses opinions, not research. They will push books written by seemingly important proffesionals. However real medical researchers do not write books, they write journal articles. I have requested many times on this board for someone to provide me with some current research from a peer reviewed medical journal backing up what they say. No one has yet done it. I suggested on this thread that if you had a fear of mercury poisoning from vaccines, then just request that you be allowed to make sure that the vaccine is thimerosol free, as all vaccines except influenza areare now produced without the mercury. They have been making them thimerosol free for alomost 5 years, so the vast majority, if not all, of the vaccinations do not have mercury.

I can happily debate the fallacy's of the argument about mercury toxicity causing things like autism. Mercury poisoning is very easliy distinguished from autism to any medical practitioner who knows what to look for. However I have pointed out that this debate is a waste of time because the vaccines now do not contain thimerosol.

If that is your fear you can rest.

As far as any Doctor telling you a vaccine is 100% safe and 100% effective, you will never hear a Doctor say that. Just as you will never hear a doctor say that giving a child baby asprin is 100% safe. Medicine doesn't work that way. Anybody who says it does is misleading you.

Also the vaccine is not 100% effective. Tell me what medicine is! Studies show that the Measles vaccine is about 95% effective. The statistics that the poster above you gave are very misleading. It might be true that 80% of the people who get sick of childhood diseases in this country have been vaccinated. I don't believe this is true and I would want to know where the poster got this figure from...but let's just consider it as being true. Take a group of 1000 students exposed to measles. Out of those Consider 5 people come down with measles. And 4 out of those 5 people have been vaccinated(that is the 80% that the poster quoted). Vaccination rates in a school would be arround 99% because of the vaccine requirements. So out of those 1000 students, 990 of them were vaccinated and 10 were not. Now compare vaccinated to unvaccinated. 4 people who got sick were part of the 990 that were vaccinated. So 4 out of 990 is less than one half of one percent (.40%). Only one person that was unvaccinated got sick. But he is one of ten, so he represents 10% of the unvaccinated population. What this shows is that more people who got sick were vaccinated, but the rate of infection was 25X greater(.4% compared to 10%) in the unvaccinated population. So when antivaccination people say that more vaccinated people get sick than unvaccinated, they are being misleading, either intentionally, or because they are repeating something that they heard. Again I am open to differing views, please just address the objections that I make with evidence.

HeyThere
01-11-2004, 11:01 PM
It took you 9 months and a child birth and the rest of your life of being a parent so do your own homework on research and rely on no one else. Mis information is worse than no information. Seek gov. sites then .edu sites then .org then autism groups and such forth don't limit yourself to one of any mentioned.

Angel77
01-12-2004, 12:37 AM
I whole heartedly agree on doing your own research. What is irritating however is the insistance that the only real proof is for the vaccinations. I did not look at just one site, nor did I just take someone's word on it. Some of the information came from my son's pediatrician!!!
She is the one who helped me research much of what I started on. There are so many ways you can go with it. As of yet I have not found a double blind study...so yes the info you get is usually going to be tilted in one way or the other, that's why you need to do a lot of research. Some of what I found were incidental findings....meaning they weren't looking for a specific correlation, however found one in the process.
As far as not responding to one of the above posters with medical facts I already said I would find the sites again and clear it with moderators...that is not a refusal on my behalf, as I have nothing to hide...and honestly don't care for what seems like the insinuation that I have misrepresented any information or am lying and refuse to back it up. This is a board for opinions and experiences and what makes it successful is giving many different views on issues at hand and allowing an individual to make the decision they feel is best.
I am curious however, why is it that it's so important to force an opinion on someone who is merely trying to share some info learned while trying to make an informed decision? It seems like some are threatened by the fact that someone can think outside of the medical community. Just for the record I believe in holistic and Western medicine. I don't think there's a black and white here...it's a personal choice and no one should be felt they have to make a certain decision because it's the popular one, they need to make an informed decision which means looking at all information involved.
As for the mom who is confused as to what to do.. I can relate. I had my first vaccinated and yes he's fine. My problem came when I was set to have my second child's second round of vaccinations and had that gut feeling mom's get that said something wasn't right. I spoke with his doctor and that's where the hunt begins. You need to do your own research and not just a couple of places...I researched site after site for almost 2 wks straight before making my decision. Let me know what you find and understand that there's probably going to be more fear involved because of what you learn. One of the things that got me was that my youngest was enrolled in a study to combine some vaccines and the info packet I was handed is something that is not given in general. The hardest part for me to swallow was that they could not ensure that the cow's that were used to create the vaccine were not from other countries or at risk for mad cow disease and such. Excuse me??? You can't tell me where the heck this stuff came from and you just put it in my kid????? Ask your pediatrician if they have the info...don't know if it is there and you just have to ask or if I just got it because of the study.
Good luck and you will make the right decision because it is your baby and your choice. Listen to the voice inside and you'll know what's right for you.

sailmaven36
01-12-2004, 07:24 AM
I am curious however, why is it that it's so important to force an opinion on someone who is merely trying to share some info learned while trying to make an informed decision? It seems like some are threatened by the fact that someone can think outside of the medical community.


First off I would like to say that I am not attacking you. If my posts have come off as any other way I apologize. What I am trying to do is separate assertions made by some people that are presented as fact, against those that have scientific validity through experimentation and research. Many of the antivaccination posters ( and I do not intend this as a condemnation of you) post statements as scientific fact. Most if not all of these statements are not backed up with any research or validity. But the frequency of these statements is enough to scare people. That is why I emplore people to research on sites that reference their statements. I know no matter what I say some people will refuse to change their minds. And that is their right. I only wish to educate those who are looking for answers.

As of yet I have not found a double blind study

This is probably true, but this does not make the other studies less accurate. A double blind study would entail using a group of children given a placebo instead of the real vaccine, and then following them around for years. No doctor would do this because the risk to these children for contracting the diseases would be too great. This would be an unethical study. What epidemiologists have done is look at populations where vaccine compliance has changed over time, and correlated that to rates of problems such as autism, SIDS, Asthma etc. What they have found is no correlation between rates of vaccination and incidence of problems (you can check this and look at the actuall studies at the links I previously suggested). This suggests that there is no causal relationship involved. Some of these studies involved hundreds of thousands of children.

Finally, I am asked why I should care. Everybody should care. Decreases in vaccination rates increases diseases in both vaccinated and unvaccinated children. The CDC did a study, and the conclusion of it was that for every 1%decrease of vaccination rates, there is an increase in risk rates of 60% to children that are vaccinated, and 600% for those who are not.
So, people that do not vaccinate their children put mine at greater risk.

Angel77
01-12-2004, 10:20 AM
First of all, I am not anti-vaccination, but I don't believe it's fair to leave the parents totally in the dark about the entire role of vaccines and problems that may arise from using them. I feel parents are black balled if they choose otherwise, and I also feel that many doctors turn a blind eye to possible reactions and blame it on anything other than a reaction to the vaccine.
I have a friend who lost her sister within hours of vaccinations....the only thing that ever changed...went into convulsions then a coma, then died. And another whose daughter is mentally retarded after a reaction. The docs REFUSED to even entertain the fact that they could have had an adverse reaction, so I don't think anyone will ever get the whole story, that's why I say they need to do their own research and make an educated decision as to what's best in their situation.
I found some of the sites and am going to e-mail the mods and then will post the ones I get the ok on. Other than that I can't say much because I don't want to break any rules, as I love this board...so I'll post what I can.
I do fully agree on using reputable web sites...I'm not sure on this...so don't quote me...I don't know because I looked at these almost 2 yrs ago, but don't remember seeing any studies where they deliberately didn't vaccinate children and watched to see what happened. Most of it I believe came from researching the numbers from hospitals, pediatricians, medical journals, and various other places to obtain the information. I am a very objective person, and while doing the research I admit that some of them sounded full of it to me..but that's not to say all of them are wrong. I am an intelligent person and having had several medical problems of my own I've had to do my own research to be my own advocate and learned that what is always written does not always tell the whole story.
To read all of the medical journals about my conditions you will NEVER find the ins and outs that I experience every day. The only way I found out what I was really going through was normal was on boards with other people who have it and are living with it in real life, not a text book. The text-books don't always give the full story as they don't always know when it's something they don't experience on a personal level. It's written from a clinical aspect, not always based in real life. Clinical views are only a portion of it.

ABC~Mom
01-12-2004, 07:54 PM
sailmaven...let me just say...i love your posts....sometimes if it wasnt for you i dont think i would sleep at night!!! LOL and you are right so far no one has provided real concrete evidence....and the thermosol is my one real concern....i have not yet got to contact the health dept. but i plan too before her next vacc. but i know all the nurses who work there and they all have young children all who were vaccinated on time as babies and my feelings are ...they work around vaccines all day they know whats in them and they swear by them and while i was pregnant they always reminded me that when my baby was born to get her vaccinated on time...i feel that they would never vaccinate there children if they felt it was something that would harm them...and they say they do feel so strong about it because they see all the people who were not vaccinated with the diseases that could have easily been avoided (in most cases) with a vaccination....and thank you again sailmaven....keep up the good work ;)

sailmaven36
01-12-2004, 09:08 PM
Thank you Winnie!

The point you make about medical people vaccinating their children is very important. You will not find many who don't.

A big belief in the antivaccination community is that the medical astablishment is in league with vaccine manufacturers in hiding the supposed "danger" of vaccines. This must assume that pediatricians are so evil as to not only poison your babies, but also poison their babies as well. It would be impossible for a pediatrician to miss this supposed "danger" if it happens as frequently as these people say. Pediatricians must do tens of thousands of vaccinations a year, they would see if there is a problem. Pediatrics is one of the lowest paid of the Medical specialties, most enter in to it because they love children. If they wanted money they would go into something like urology or radiology.

Furthermore a temporal association with vaccinations (meaning that some medical problem happened at some time after innoculation) does not mean that the vaccination caused the problem. Almost all children get colds within 36 hours of eating bread. Did the bread cause the cold? Of course not. Most of the disabilities blamed on vaccines become apparent around the time that vaccines are given because that is when development shows them to be evident. You have to delve further into the association to see if it is valid. Such as investigating if there is decreased frequency of Autism in populations that do not vaccinate. Studies show that there is no difference. So you cannot say there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

Angel77
01-13-2004, 09:42 AM
It is not an assumption that pediatricians are evil, there's a difference between evil, ignorant, misinformed, misled, etc.
There are many unknowns about so much, that doesn't mean if someone chooses something and they have a bad experience with it that they were evil, just didn't do all the looking on both sides of things.

ABC~Mom
01-13-2004, 11:18 AM
i called my health dept. and my local hospital and on the vaccination bottles it says "preservative free" but on the brochures they are sent with the vacc. it says that there are trace amounts of thermosol (sp?) in the DtAP, hib, polio, and the flu vacc. but all the nurses i talked to said that it is very important to have my child vaccinated...they (again) said they vaccinated all their children (and that YES they are aware of the traces of thermosol in it) but they reasured me that it is such a minisule amount that they dont worry about it and neither should i but said when it comes to deadly diseases not to mess around...

ABC~Mom
01-13-2004, 11:26 AM
sorry to double post but i have to add....sailmaven you said i wont find many health care pros who dont vaccinate their children...but you know i havent even found ONE who has not vaccinated their own children, so far all the pros i talked to do vaccinate and encourage others to do the same :)....

and another thing you are right about ...we should care that others dont vaccinate because as you said it does put our children at higher risk...and in my state you still must vaccinate for school and some daycare centers as well, i am not sure i would want my child in a center or school where some children were not vaccinated...its just to dangerous

sailmaven36
01-14-2004, 06:28 AM
[I can't remember who requested it, but here is a link containing the ingredients for all of the vaccines.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/

got down to info and click on pkg inserts

Doobeedoobeedoo
02-13-2004, 12:25 PM
"and another thing you are right about ...we should care that others dont vaccinate because as you said it does put our children at higher risk...and in my state you still must vaccinate for school and some daycare centers as well, i am not sure i would want my child in a center or school where some children were not vaccinated...its just to dangerous"

Hey Winnie, If your kid is Vaccinated, then why would you worry about other kids who have not been vaccinated?????????????????????? Would you actually inject something into your child that doesn't work???? Why vac. if it doesn't work????? Why would you worry about your kid getting sick if your kid is 'vaccinated'????????? Isn't your kid supposed to be 'immune' if they had a vaccination????

almostmom
02-13-2004, 02:52 PM
Ok..where have I been? It's exciting to see so much debate. A couple of thoughts come to mind. I believe Angel mentioned (who posts things that help me sleep at night) such hostility towards we questioners, delayers, non-vaccinaters.....it hits me right in the heart. My baby is my life and my choices are not because I'm ignorant or anti-establishment. I have a full library of pro and con (cause it is hard to find neutral authors)..I have spent hours on the internet, hours with parents touched by this issue (before moving)..like I always keep saying. Some posts confirm my worst fears: you will not befriend me or my daughter because of my choice to wait (maybe 6 months, maybe 12, maybe indefinitely) I should move to a remote location, home-school my daughter and avoid social situations.
Another thought/question...how (cause I really do not know) does the medical community or health departments or the CDC explain the autism rise which I agree could ALMOST be a tragedy of the past. Better diagnostic techniques...genetics...video games..soda...MTV? I believe the first two hold alot of the answer. I'm not asking to belabor the autism issue but what's next???? There are more and more vaccines starting younger and younger with no end in sight and no guidelines to "retire" a vaccine when it has been successfully vaccinated for (perhaps polio falls into that) When will enough be enough? When will things like Rubella and Hepatitis B be reccommended for teens or college entrance instead of infants and toddlers? When will we really see that infant vaccination wanes even with boosters and maybe some diseases, which are more problematic in young adults, teens & adults be started at 5-7 yrs of age. When will it be admitted that some milder toddler/child diseases are now showing up in older groups where they are often more serious? (chickenpox could eventually join this group)
When do we look closer at who finances studies?
I have definitely learned that while I come here for support maybe like other moms that are in tears at the end of the day because of their choices either way I will do everything I can to no longer post anecdote, conjecture or opinion I will make an effort to put my money where my mouth is and cite reference or study.
Question..if I find something in a book with a reference can I cite author or reference??? I will check with mods too.

sailmaven36
02-13-2004, 08:23 PM
I will be waiting for your scientific evidence Almostmom. I am not trying to be combative, its just that nobody has shown me solid evidence to support allegations against vaccines. Just Anecdotes.

sailmaven36
02-13-2004, 08:32 PM
As far as the rise in Autism, No evidence has arisen to support vaccinations as the culprit. Numerous studies have been done comparing Autism rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. No difference was found. These studies have been repeated in many different countries, by many different researchers, and they all came to the same conclusion.

More recently in the British Medical JournalT he BMJ reports on an article from Pahrmacotherapy which looks at why the incidence of autism appears to have risen:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7436/364-b

this study attempts to answer your question.

the number of children [in the United Kingdom] diagnosed with `behaviour' and `developmental' disorders, but not autism, tended to decrease by about 20% per year from 1992 to 2000. By contrast, the diagnosis of autism increased by 20% per year during this time period,

This suggests that what used to be loosley termed "developmental disorders" now falls within the Diagnosis for Autism.

almostmom
02-13-2004, 08:52 PM
deleted While no vaccine connection was made (which does make me breathe half a sigh) there was no alternative explanation.. Changes in diagnostic techniques, criteria etc, I totally believe has altered numbers. but how much can really be attibuted to that? How did numbers go from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 150....Let's say numbers vary according to source..I've read 1 in 500 to 1 in 150....something!!!!is happenning to our kids! In your practice have you encountered a child that developed normally then regressed? "Matt" (have not asked his mom's permission) was a healthy baby boy..he hit all of his well baby visits on target..good weight, height etc. He rolled over, stood, walked, said Mama, DeeDee (his Daddy) at all appropriate times. At 20 months his mom noticed he did'nt want to smile or play with her..she shrugged it off as a bad day...By 22 months he stopped making eye contact, stayed in a solitary world of numbers and letters.."stimming" on them his lead therapist would later say.....By 30 months his mother confided in me that she only wanted him to understand love...to feel it..to give it...to say Mommy, I love you..not as an exercise taught by his therapy team..but independently.
It is hard...I will try not to get impatient with those who think I may only read headlines and no content.

sailmaven36
02-13-2004, 09:26 PM
In your practice have you encountered a child that developed normally then regressed?

That is the common presentation of Autism.

Have to go to sleep now, thanks for the conversation.

P.S. I dont think you are a hysterical mom. My son was incorrectly diagnosed as having Asbergers syndrome, which is a form of autism. I can tell you how terrified I was when I heard this. Fortunately the Psychologist was way off on her diagnosis.

So I know what the fear can feel like

almostmom
02-13-2004, 10:31 PM
Sleep well,
I am waiting for my husband to get home so while I will regret it at 6 am when Alex gets up..I want to write. An Aspergers diagnosis must have been hard..and glad to hear it ended up being off-base...I'm not "glad" you can understand the fear first-hand..but I'm sure your professsion plus life-experience can help us all...like each and every one of us has experience in different ways.
One other thing is coming to mind. Ironically, just like me, one of my mom's closest friends, had a son (in 1974) who was autistic.Now we, 3 decades later share about that....My mom & her friend were in their late 20s when they had us...we were vaccinated fully (total sidenote). But Ron was always..different..he never looked at us..spun objects or himself alot...
I didn't know or understand then....My point to get there in 10 words or less is that I was unaware that the regression aspect I described above was normal to an autism diagnosis......Now, yes, then, no...Ron was born that way.. he never regressed..he never recognized us or at least communicated that he did.. That I believe is a truer example of "organic" autism. The arugument I've heard, read of, is that this "regressive autism"...(this is not an official term) can possibly be attributed to cumulative mercury exposure + genetics+ other factors .So this is a little more of my story. "Matt" the boy I worked with was different.....Knew us...but lost us.
It's so easy for me to talk about kids, autism and the last several years.
I am gonna go out on an unscientific limb and say that the rates of Autism, ADD,ADHD,PDD..will decrease now that vaccines can be made without thimerosal.
We in this board area aren't looking to blame...we are only just beginning to vaccinate, or wait...thimerosal can hopefully be put aside for the moment..so we can zero in on other issues concerning the current vaccination schedule.

sailmaven36
02-14-2004, 04:28 AM
I am gonna go out on an unscientific limb and say that the rates of Autism, ADD,ADHD,PDD..will decrease now that vaccines can be made without thimerosal

That is not unscientific. That makes a good hypothesis for a study. Because if thimerosol is the culprit you would expect autism rates to go down. Those studyies have been done in nations that stopped thimerosol ten years before we did. Results showed no changes in the rates of autism. Thus another strong point against the case of thimerosol being the culprit. A lot of this ferver was first started by wakefield and his inferred association between MMR and autism. It has since been discredited. Also remember MMR has no thimerosol in it anyway, never did.

almostmom
02-14-2004, 05:50 AM
Appreciate your post. I would like to know the culprit. Would like to see fewer kids with these issues.
I've been on quite a marathon of posting.....and it just makes me too emotional right now.
I've enjoyed reading and sharing but my gut tells me it's time for a break.
So long for now.

sailmaven36
02-15-2004, 06:42 AM
Just wanted to provide you with an excellent link that discusses the Vaccination-Autism issue and provides goood quality information based on science, not emotion. It is from The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Look at it when you get a chance.

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75818

kray28
06-27-2005, 06:53 PM
* ( - removed - no personal attacks on other members - )

The big pharmaceutical companies have been feeding the public horrendous LIES!

I am sick and tired of their lies.

* ( - removed - do not post commercial websites - ) *

jriegel
06-29-2005, 02:40 PM
well i'm new to this discussion but not to the topic. i would like to say that for those who believe vaccinations are completely safe, please do not assume that those who have a great concern over their safety are reading wrong information or being misled by their own intuitions. there is PLENTY of documentation of the FDA's relationship with the pharmaceutical industry and the amazing way drugs, vaccines and other such things are approved at the same time FDA authorities receive stock options or even positions with the company they are supposed to be evaluating and regulating. this is a deadly trend, money in exchange for safety.

i would also like to say that for people who feel that those concerned with the safety of vaccines have been reading "propaganda" regarding the dangers of vaccinations, the same could be said for information coming from those who financially benefit from approval of prescription drugs and vaccinations, so please, keep an open mind. information and research that is documented by doctors and agencies not in any way tied to the industry through grants, employment or any other benefit, financial or otherwise, might actually contain truth.

as stated before, it is essential to keep your head on straight and not take everything at face value. however, i would say there is enough evidence and information available from people and doctors who have personally experienced (either with their own child or patients) negative, dangerous side effects that can not be refuted by drug companies who profit to produce vaccinations and the FDA authorities who profit to approve them, that it should absolutely raise concern.

it is not difficult and is also highly profitable for industry and FDA executives to silence any naysayer with insults of extremism or lack of education or knowledge. we have been trained for decades to take what is handed down from such offices and "authorities" as gospel truth. just as people have been cautioned and encouraged to research and think intelligently and honestly before losing their wits about vaccine safety, the same should be cautioned and encouraged to those who eat the industry reports and information like the bread of life.

do you really think drug companies care about the safety of your children for their own profit? not a chance. it's a twist they call "the greater good" - if vaccines harm thousands of children through irritation, developmental disabilities (i personally have a friend who will be in an electric wheel chair and will also receive government stipends his entire life because a vaccination destroyed his chances of developing normally, which is how my search for knowledge and information began), even death, the industry considers is t worthwhile risk in light of those who MIGHT *potentially* become infected with a disease, virus or bacteria.

i am not 100% against vaccines, however i think it incredibly irresponsible and irrational of the medical community to assault the underdeveloped immune system of an infant, who already is receiving passively aquired immunity if breast fed. and at this point children are receiving a mind blowing number of antigens into their system that they may not ever be at risk for. if vaccinations should be necessary, at least require them at an older age, when the immune, skeletal and cerebral systems are all significantly more developed.

an interesting note is that a panel discussion approval for yet another pertussis vaccination, more than one doctor addressed the issue that antibodies are not even understood for their purpose or action. to assume immunity and protection based on the presence of antibodies after an injection, and to blindly assume the safety of a vaccine because it provokes the presence of antibodies, is incredibly irresponsible. i believe that our children are the test for safety and efficacy of vaccinations, and time will tell if they are safe or effective. i think time is beginning to tell as the number of concerned citizens and parents rises.

another thought that utterly confuses me is the assumption of immunity and safety when vaccines deliberately bypass the first four natural systems of defense: the skin, the mucous membranes, the gut lymphiods and the lymphatic system, depositing antigens directly into the blood stream. i find this particularly foolish and offensive in the case of infants.

finally i think there is significant evidence concerning the correlation between thimerosal and autism. we are told that autism is genetic/hereditary and has been around for generations and centuries. i do believe that we have the highest number of cases of autism today, present in children and adolescents, early teens and adulthood, than any other generation, and the children born in the past ten years have received more vaccinations than any other generation. Also, there is a significant lack in numbers of adults with autism. While there certainly are adults with autism, there is a staggering difference in number of cases between the age groups. Also, there is a clear, significant lack of children (and adults for that matter) with autism in the Amish population. At the time of an article which some or all of you may have read, a journalist travelled to amish communities in search of autistic amish children. theoritically he should have found around 200, and that's a conservative estimate, eliminating generic disorders that are similar to autism. he found three. one was a girl adopted from china who had received a vaccination schedule before she left and the second was one of the few amish children who had been vaccinated after the parents were pressured by public health officials. the third case could not be located. when asked if there were any other cases of autism anywhere in the amish community, the families replied there was no way there would be without them knowing, even though the amish communities are spread all throughout the united states. if you don't believe they could possibly know of every case, watch the movie "the Devil's Playground", a documentary on rumspringa. it becomes very clear how tight the amish community is. families have directories that are regularly updated on every family in the amish community, children's names, ages, location, and family information. i truly believe those families were correct in saying that if there were any other cases of autism in the amish community, they would know about it.

hypothetically, if there are other cases and the families happen to be ashamed or try to keep their family in seclusion (which goes against everything the amish stand for (working and living in community and helping out every person and family) ) it is HIGHLY unlikely that the number of children that SHOULD have been found with autism, if it is not correlated to vaccinations, could have been supressed and hidden from the rest of the community.

dannysmom
06-29-2005, 03:13 PM
I would like to add that vaccines are NOT a requirement for children to go to school. The school board might say so, but it is not the law. There are waivers that can be obtained.

brocally
06-30-2005, 06:53 AM
Excellent summary Jriegel!

jriegel
06-30-2005, 03:31 PM
One more thought: the majority (if not all) of the illnesses "guarded against" through vaccines that have been in the past and are currently scheduled for infants and toddlers, are not fatal. if one of the viruses, bacteria or diseases is contracted, the medical industry has progressed enough thus far to administer the proper treatment for recovery. To risk hundreds of thousands of children becoming sick, developmentally disabled or even dead "for the greater good" of a statistically tiny group of children who, despite passively aquired immunity, the body's first four natural stages of immunity, as well as generally healthy, safe lifestyles MIGHT *potentially* one day contract such an illness, also seems very illogical and irresponsible.

Thank you dannysmom for that information. schools, especially public, would have you believe you were abusing your child for not injecting antigens at an alarming number directly into the bloodstream of an immaturely immune and developed child. God forbid.

mommaboyz
07-05-2005, 02:42 PM
Ifyou are noy aware, most if not all vaccines have removed the thimerosol that was in them. If this is what scares you, then you should request thimeroslo free vaccines. The mortality statistics on childhood diseases should definately frighten you.

There is no board policy prohibiting you from posting weblinks to study listings. You have made alot of statements of what you consider to be medical facts. Please back them up with concrete evidence that I can read. If this is for peoples information they should not take anybodies word that what they are saying is true. They should be able to see it in a well designed study, not some web site run by anybody with a computer.


although they are making mercury free vaccines now they are still useing the ones on the shelves with mercury in them.so Our children are still getting Therimersol. I know this becouse my 3 yr old has autism from his vaccines im certain.Yes people do need to be educated about it. People think that just becouse the doctors say vaccinate we should. thats not true. we need to do the math ourselves. the dangers of vaccines outweigh the preventions. IMO.

naturalmum
07-17-2005, 04:26 AM
diseases come and diseases go. there was no vaccine for scarlet fever, yet it disappeared on its own. the diseases were declining greatly right before the vaccines were introduced. improved sanitation played a role in the reduction of disease. the reason there are so many diseases (which the children often die from) in third world countries is because these children are not healthy to begin with. they are malnourished and they are drinking water which is contaminated with fecal matter.

from the cdc, here are the current number of diseases in the U.S. for 2005.
Rubella 6
Measles 22
Mumps 125
Diptheria 0
Tetanus 10
Pertussis 7,950
Polio 0

The only large outbreaks have been whooping cough, and the problem is mostly that immunity from the vaccine doesn't last very long. i wonder how many of these cases are in the fully vaccinated? my friend's 2 young children, both fully vaccinated, caught pertussis. same with a nurse i know. her 2 fully vaccinated daughters caught it as well. yet the doctor told the nurse that her children didn't have pertussis because "the vaccinated don't get it."

i know lots of unvaccinated children. they're not running around spreading disease. my 2 children are unvaccinated and have not had any diseases, although 1 child may have had chicken pox, but it was very mild. they have never been on antibiotics and they have no physical or mental health issues.

i attribute extended breastfeeding, along with healthy eating, no fruit juice, no white bread, little sugar, no vaccines and exercise to their good health.
when i hear people say that we are being selfish for not getting our children vaccinated, all i have to say is that we all do what's best for our own child. most parents believe the benefits outweigh the risks, so they get their children vaccinated. if they didn't believe it, then they wouldn't get them vaccinated. i'm raising healthy children. i'm saving taxpayers' money because my children don't need meds or hospitalization. how is that selfish?

i would like to know why we're vaccinating against diseases like the flu, chicken pox, mumps and measles. ask any old-timer; they'll tell you they had these diseases and it was no big deal. we're told that approximately 36,000 die every year from the flu. what they don't tell you is that the number is more like 250 because all the other deaths (mainly in the elderly) are from pneumonia. when treating diseases, where parents and sometimes doctors go wrong is that they give the child aspirin or tylenol, which can turn a mild illness into a deadly one. if people knew how to treat these diseases properly, it wouldn't be such a big deal. for instance, measles destroys vitamin a, so if you're already low in it, you could get very sick. supplementation w/vitamin a for measles is important. pertussis in children can be reduced in severity if you use homeopathy or vitamin c supplementation. if you have a good naturopath, they can help your child get through an illness with relative ease.

it's not just the mercury that's the problem with vaccines. they also contain aluminum, which is a neurotoxin, and they contain contain formaldehyde, which has been found to cause cancer in humans. and has anyone checked the VAERS database recently? there are an average of 110 vaccine-related deaths per year in babies age 0 to 1. keep in mind that according to the fda, only 10 percent of doctors actually report vaccine reactions/deaths, so the number could be even higher. i'm so tired of hearing doctors say "it's just a coincidence." how can there be thousands of "coincidences?" vaccines are not properly tested for safety. anyone remember how the government defended a dangerous pertussis vaccine for more than a decade before switching to a safer version? i've met several mothers whose children have had immediate reactions to the vaccines. reactions are more common than we're led to believe.

re thimerosal (mercury) anyone with all pistons firing knows that injecting mercury into babies and children is stupid. 6-month-old children who were administered the shots on schedule suffered mercury exposures 87 times the government safety standards. autism has gone from 1 in 10,000 in the 80's to 1 in 166 in 2005. to say it's purely genetic is ridiculous. there's no such thing as a genetic epidemic. and the increase is not due to better diagnosis. ask any special ed teacher who's been teaching for at least 10 years. they will tell you they've seen a huge increase in children w/adhd, learning disabilities, autism and aspergers (1 in 6 children) mercury is known to cause these problems. some children simply cannot excrete mercury properly. i hear the same story over and over again. the child was developing normally, meeting all his milestones, then around a year and a half, the child gets vaccinated and gets a high fever, becomes listless and screams for hours. a few days or a couple weeks later, the child stops talking, loses eye contact, is always sick, etc. i guess it's just another "coincidence."

i had to laugh when the cdc (i believe) said they were removing the mercury from the vaccines to make "a safe vaccine even safer." if it's already safe, then why did they remove the mercury? well, they almost removed the mercury. Some Flu, Tetanus, DT and Meningococcal still contain it. always ask to see the inserts.
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

it's strange how china and africa had a very low incidence of autism, that is until the U.S. recently started shipping vaccines with the full amount of mercury in them. now they've got millions of cases of autism.

be sure to check out this recent article: New Autism Cases Level Off in State, Data Show. Some say the slowdown may be linked to the removal of mercury from infants' vaccines.

oh, re the denmark study;
http://www.taap.info/DanishStudy2005.pdf

if the cdc wants everyone to get vaccinated, then they need to make safer vaccines. i spoke to a mother who told me that when she took her child to the er, the nurse told her she had seen a lot of kids with post-vaccinal problems.

has anyone noticed how sick the kids of today are? asthma and diabetes have skyrocketed. arthritis in children used to be virtually unheard of. now more and more children are being diagnosed with it. my friend's child has it. vaccines may be wiping out diseases, but they may also be creating new ones.

i encourage everyone to read Fouad Yazbak's Speech online.

Doobeedoobeedoo
07-17-2005, 05:51 PM
Makes sense naturalmum, thanks for all that info!!!

brocally
07-18-2005, 02:11 PM
Yes, we have traded a life where we would occasionally be hit (and even die) from acute illnesses for a life where we live with serious chronic disease. Not a good trade, IMO.

Concerned Male
07-18-2005, 10:26 PM
Why was thimerisol(Mercury) being put into vaccines in the first place? It doesn't make much sense to put one of the most toxic substances known to man, in a child's vaccine.

kiki lou
07-19-2005, 07:56 AM
It saved the drug companies about .50 a dose for vaccines....

jriegel
07-19-2005, 08:16 AM
thimerosal was used as a "preservative" for multiple-stick vials (where more than one needle would be insterted into the vial to give multiple vaccines) for example in school-wide vaccine events, nation wide vaccine schedules in developing nations, etc.

it is way more mercury than what is found in multiple cans of tuna, which contains mercury because the fish is contaminated in its natural environment. also, thimerosal is injected directly into the blood stream in a vaccine, bypassing the first four stages of defense (skin, mucous membrane, gut lymphoids and lymphatic system) where as mercury consumed in tuna, even though it is still dangerous and harmful, is filtered through the gut lymphoids and the lymphatic system.

feelbad
10-17-2005, 06:13 AM
While the vaccinated for diseases would not be considered fatal to a healthy normal child, children like my son who are immunosupressed,they would be.There are so many many people(including children) who are immunosuppressed from certain conditions/diseases and the treatments of certain conditions that ARE at much higher risk from those that are not vaccinated.

I live in MN and we just had our fourth case of polio confirmed here.it's here and other thought to be gone,diseases and will be back,it is just a matter of time.it IS those of us who have had our children vaccinated that make it possible for you who don't to even have that choice.children are at risk just waking up in the morning,once they step outside that door,the risks go up.when they get to school, the risks go up again.you cannot possibly protect your children from everything but if there is something offered that would reduce the risks to your child of contracting certain diseases,I just don't understand why you would not do it.i have yet to see any "real" proof that all of the children who are ending up with certain conditions/diseases were actually coming from any vaccination.yes,there ARE some children who have had horrible reactions to the vaccines,but everytime your child or any adult puts anything, a medication or even food into their bodies,depending on the physiology of that particular persons make up,they could react to it in some way,that is just the way things are.

i know this IS a very touchy subject for some,but actually hearing that there are(so far) four confirmed cases of a disease that was thought to be pretty much non existant just a few years ago,really should at the very least,cause you to rethink that decision to not vaccinate your children,honestly.The children(this actually started in an infant)who now have polio were ALL not vaccinated.There will be many more cases coming as this is actually in an Amish community who do not believe in vaccintations.So you can only imagine just what is going to happen there over the next few months,at least.Just something i really thought you should all be aware of.FB

worldtraveler
11-19-2005, 09:00 AM
Just a few facts: if your child has a bad reaction to a vaccine, you cannot sue the doctor for administering the shot. You cannot sue the pharmaceutical company that produces the drug. You cannot sue the nurse or pharmacist who dispenses the drug.

In the US, we claim to "require" that children receive vaccines. Yet, if anything goes wrong, tough ****!

There are ways around the issue of school and vaccines. Anyone with a child who did receive a severe reaction to a vaccine should be able to obtain a medical waiver. If not, there is always a religious waiver. You can claim to be a "Christian Science" member if you believe in ANY tenet of the religion. One of its tenets is no vaccines!

Joan1980
11-22-2005, 07:49 PM
The biggest danger to children who are immunosuppressed are newly vaccinated children. They can shed the live virus and you would never suspect that. While an unvaccinated child is always being watched for possible childhood diseases. When he has a fever he will be kept away from other kids.
But a newly vaccinated child is supposed to be safe. Yet he could be the one to do cause the immunosuppressed child to become ill.

I am wondering, were there even immunosuppresed children before mass vaccinations or is that in fact a "modern" disease which came about BECAUSE of vaccines?

Vaccines do change the immune system. There is no doubt about that.

wendy68
01-28-2006, 04:28 PM
hello

I have to put my two cents in on this subject. They do make the mercury free vaccienes now so there is no reason to be afraid. heres what Id be afraid of. There are side effects to everything including asprin. The risks of getting and spreading these diseases outweigh the risk of being vaccinated. How would you feel if your child got polio in which this disease is coming back in non vaccinated children. Personaly I could never live with myself knowing I could of prevented this.I am 37 years old I had all my vaccinations. And so did my children which are 18 and 14. If your afraid of mercury then you shouldnt be feeding you children fish either because they have linked that to autisum also. My aunt was not vaccinated and was exposed to german measels when she was pregnant and her daughter was born with cataracts now she is legaly blind. and she had a daughter herself and passed onto her also this disease and shes considered legaly blind also. when now there are 2 generations on sight problems because of these measles and it could of all been prevented. I think you guys should spend a little more time researching on the internet what these diseases do to a person also instead of looking up bad side effects of things.And stop and think of what would happen if this was your child and you could of prevented it..Also look up the true facts on autisum and the causes it will open your eyes. dont look for the negitive look for true medical writings on it.

Brocallie
01-29-2006, 12:31 PM
"True medical writings!" Ha--now THAT's funny.

michelle95
02-03-2006, 05:53 AM
I think you guys should spend a little more time researching on the internet what these diseases do to a person also instead of looking up bad side effects of things.And stop and think of what would happen if this was your child and you could of prevented it..

That's really easy to say if your children weren't suspected of being damaged by vaccines. I have a child that was. He has not been officially diagnosed with anything because he is only 6...but, let me tell you that the last 4 years have been hell. To have a child act like an animal, to wonder if your son is going to try to kill you when he is older, to wonder if he is going to one day spend the rest of his life in jail because he DID kill someone....well, you can see why I am hesitant of vaccinations.

My child went from being normal to becoming nothing short of an "animal" within days of his 18 month vaccinations. It was the medical establishment's ignorance that led me to search for why my child did that. You can call it a coincidence...you can call it for the "greater good"...but, one day all of these children are going to be adults. And, I'm pretty sure that most of them don't have parents that are searching for help...one day these kids are going to be running the show.

I seriously doubt that the numbers of disease would be as high for unvaccinated children as they are for autism and other disorders. The numbers were going down naturally before vaccinations for certain diseases were introduced simply because of better sanitation methods.

I love how people that don't have a child with mental illness judge the ones that do. :rolleyes: Remember these conversations when this generation grows up and crime skyrockets.

foxfire4321
02-07-2006, 05:51 PM
As always these discussions bring out numerous points on both sides of the arguements. My favorite point was made by a doctor a few years back (sorry can't remember the exact reference)... if vaccines were responsible for the upsurge in autism, autoimmune diseases and the like we would have seen the upswing in the 60s, when mass vaccination started not in the 80s twenty years later.

It is sad that anyone has to undergo these conditions (and for purposes of disclosure, I myself have a couple of manifested and clinical autoimmune conditions), but the etiology is much more complex than the vaccine... and the benefits to society that these vaccines give far outweigh the direct side-effects they produce.

Concerned Male
02-09-2006, 03:50 PM
There weren't near as many different types of vaccinations being given to kids back in the 60's though, as there has been since the 80's and 90's. And I'm not sure if thermosal(spelling) and similar things were being used as preservatives back in the 60's either.

foxfire4321
02-09-2006, 06:10 PM
Okay, a few facts:
Thimerosal was developed as a preservative in 1929 by Eli Lilly and has been used in vaccines for most of their modern lives, therefore more of a concern in the 60s and 70s than the 80s and on when it was starting to be phased out. Now you can request thimerosal-free versions of most vaccines.

Second, the schedule, the CDC only recommends seven vaccines for children.

IPV- present in the schedule since the 60s
MMR- present in the schedule since the 60s
DPT- present since the 60s
Varicella- entered the schedule after the upturn in autism related issues (80s)
Hep B- again entered after the upturn in autism
HiB- again after the upturn
pneumococcus- again after the upturn

We can also add the influenza vaccine, though until recently it was never that widely used and therefore is unlikely to have influenced the trends

We can also add the smallpox vaccine, present in the schedule through out the 60s and 70s.

All the rest of the vaccines (i.e. meningococcus) are for teens or older, therefore outside of the autism discussion.

Therefore I think the arguements of thimerosal and number of vaccine do not hold up, especially given that the most commonly held "culprit" is the MMR vaccine one that has been around since the 70s (with individual components in use before then).

Doobeedoobeedoo
02-10-2006, 06:19 AM
CDC's current vaccine schedule...........
http://www.cispimmunize.org/IZSchedule_2006.pdf
(sickening, literally)

Faythey
02-10-2006, 07:43 AM
Part of the uprising of Autism is actually a little shady. I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but it was fairly recently that the qualifications for autism were expanded. It is much easier now to diagnose a child with autism than in the 80s.

Obviously there is something that has happened to cause the rise in Autism, but I have not found a scientific document that claims vaccines are the sole culprit.


I'm still at a loss of what to do about vaccines...Either way it seems like theres a risk of something horrible. I hate risks.

foxfire4321
02-10-2006, 11:51 AM
Having during my training witnessed a child in the throws of pertussis, I can honestly say I do not know how any parent would expose their child to the potential risk. Granted most of these parents think that the risk of the vaccines is greater, but I would argue they are mistaken. The only reason you don't see more problems in places like the US and Canada is that mandatory vaccination keeps the "herd immunity" high and therefore the unvaccinated children are offered some protection. You can easily look up the report from the CDC on how quickly an epidemic of something like pertussis can spread through an unprotected community (usually a religious enclave) in an industrialized country.

As to the rise in autism, well my wife has worked with autistic spectrum children for close to fifteen years as a professional, and she always tells me that the rise seems mostly to be due to rising awareness and broadening of the spectrum definitions. I find the vaccine link to be a seriously flawed arguement in general since the major medical paper proposing the link (1998 Lancet) was retracted by the authors, since then there have been plenty of studies showing no link, but no other ones showing a link (of course, I am ignoring the conspiracy angle here... but hey I am a scientist).

Scarlett101
02-10-2006, 12:42 PM
My independent reading/researching and consultation with 2 naturopathic doctors have firmly convinced me that vaccinations are not the "cure all" they intend to be. And incidently, I wouldn't blindly trust anything the FDA or any American public health organization purports to be safe, since these organizations are largely funded by and/or run by industry leaders who have a vested interest in "selling" vaccines, pharmaceuticals, whatever they're trying to push on consumers. I don't trust big business to give me an honest answer about what's healthy for me when there are billions of dollars of profit to be made.

foxfire4321
02-10-2006, 01:36 PM
Yep, I knew we would get at least one conspiracy response. The fact is that most companies had to be forced to continue making vaccine for this very reason. It isn't like the vaccine business is real high profit, which is why for the longest time many of the boutique vaccines (i.e. anthrax and rabies) had to be made by state entities (yes, anthrax is made by a private company now, but that was after it was divested from the state of Michigan... and no I am not starting a discussion on that particular vaccine, simply using it as an example).

Just take a look at the actua data... not what someone filters for you. It is all avaiable on the web... see CDC or WHO. You will see the percipitous fall in incidence for measeles (sp), mumps, rubella, pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, etc. Let us not forget the story of smallpox, a disease that used to kill upto 30% of its victims and disfigure a significant fraction of the remainder... it is now for all intents and purposes extinct (again, not starting a discussion on its fate) in the wild and our children don't have to worry about it... heck we don't even vaccinate against it in the US anymore. In MY independent study and my professional work (no I do not work for a pharma company, governmental body, or hospital... no conflic of interest) I can say that I would rank mass vaccination and modern sanitation as two of the greatest advances of the last century, which have done more to save human life than all of the modern drugs we use now.

Joan1980
02-10-2006, 03:54 PM
Autism is caused by refrigerator moms.

Faulty constitution. Wrong genes.

It's the environment, stupid.

Lazy nurses who didn't bother to shake the multi-dose vials, resulting in one kid getting most of the mercury in that bottle are to blame.

18 months old were mercury poisoned by the cans of tuna they ate. Moms ate too much tuna during pregnancy.
(Interesting - here they recognize mercury poisoning AND admit it can cause autistic symptoms.)

I'm not offended by any of it, so long as there is PROOF.

Joan1980
02-10-2006, 03:59 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9345669&dopt=Abstract

Interesting site here. Nothing to do with autism but in general are vaccinated kids healthier or ....
Why is there no comparison study done? It would be so easy to lay all qualms to rest. There are thousand of unvaccinated kids in every age available already.

Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood asthma or allergy?

Kemp T, Pearce N, Fitzharris P, Crane J, Fergusson D, St George I, Wickens K, Beasley R.

Department of Medicine, Wellington School of Medicine, New Zealand.

The Christchurch Health and Development Study comprises 1,265 children born in 1977. The 23 children who received no diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus (DPT) and polio immunizations had no recorded asthma episodes or consultations for asthma or other allergic illness before age 10 years; in the immunized children, 23.1% had asthma episodes, 22.5% asthma consultations, and 30.0% consultations for other allergic illness. Similar differences were observed at ages 5 and 16 years. These findings do not appear to be due to differential use of health services (although this possibility cannot be excluded) or con-founding by ethnicity, socioeconomic status, parental atopy, or parental smoking.

PMID: 9345669 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

michelle95
02-10-2006, 06:11 PM
Foxfire, your assessment of when vaccines were added is incorrect.

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75700

Since the mid 80's, about 12 additional shots have been added to the vaccine schedule comprised of 4 different diseases. The autism rate has risen from 1 in 20000 in 1980 to 1 in 166 in 2005. Furthermore, it is estimated that 1 in 6 children have some kind of disability...whether it be ADHD, autism, bipolar, learning disability, etc. You don't really believe that is all due to better diagnostics, do you? I think teachers back in 1980 could tell there was something wrong with a child just as easily as they do now...and, they would have definitely referred them to someone that could help. I was a child in the 80's and early 90's and I do not remember 1 in 6 children having difficulties at school.

For the record, I do not believe that all autism cases are strictly caused by vaccines. In our age of deadly toxins being released everywhere that we turn...some could be due to something else as well. However, you cannot discount that mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde...laden vaccines do not pose a problem.

It never ceases to amaze me when people learn what are in vax and then deny that these neurotoxins can cause problems in our kids. :eek:

foxfire4321
02-10-2006, 06:45 PM
Since it wasn't till the 1990s that experts in the field reached a consensus on what is an autistic spectrum disorder it is hard to say the exact rate of increase.

"The definition has changed, the classification system has changed, there's greater recognition now than in the past, and there are services available for children with autism...For all of those reasons, it's very hard to compare the rates from the studies now to the rates from studies ten years ago," (Yeargin-Allsopp a CDC analyst on the Atlanta Project, one of the most comprehensive reviews of epidemiological data in the US if not the world)

Is it possible that children are know recognized that weren't before...yes. Is it possible it accounts for the entire increase, maybe. For one, it wasn't till the 90s before you had the majority of governmental mandates for special educations services (IDEA and such), before that services were limited to those with severe mental or physical problems... something many autistic spectrum children would never have met. I personally know a number of people in my field whom my wife is easily able to pick out as high probablity Asperger's cases, yet they are just considered a little eccentric because they were before the recognition of the syndrome. So yes, I think it is possible that the "rapid rise" is due more to artifical inflation than actual changes.

As to the components of vaccines. First, very few vaccines contain ANY themrosal at all, and even for those there are mercury free alternatives. Second, the other components such as formaldehyde and gluteraldehyde are present in few of the remaining vaccines and at very low levels (i.e nanograms)... easily within what even a child is exposed to on a normal basis.

Given these facts, I would say it is a greater risk to expose your child to the threat of infection than to the phantom threat of the vaccines.

Doobeedoobeedoo
02-11-2006, 06:35 AM
I personally love this part the best...

"although they find no “evidence of harm” from the mercury exposure that children are getting in their vaccines, they are calling on vaccine manufacturers to remove it from vaccines on a voluntary basis as a precautionary measure " ***!

michelle95
02-11-2006, 01:21 PM
As to the components of vaccines. First, very few vaccines contain ANY themrosal at all, and even for those there are mercury free alternatives

Foxfire, that would apply to NOW, not 10 years ago. It wasn't until 2000 that the FDA only suggested that the pharmaceutical companies remove thimerasol from vaccines. Notice suggestion...not mandatory. All of the vaccines that had it were used up and it was probably only recently that the majority of vaccines are thimerasol free.

As far as alternatives...we didn't know about them. It wasn't exactly common knowledge that vaccines had Hg in them. If it was, you can bet your butt a lot more parents would have been requesting them. Everyone and their brother knows that Hg is toxic. (can you tell I'm "country"?) :p

About the statistics...well, if you want to stick your head in the sand, that's up to you. But, 1 in 6 children having some kind of mental problem? What's up with that? You can't tell me that you honestly believe that number was as high 100 years ago but only now better able to be diagnosed.

foxfire4321
02-12-2006, 08:02 AM
And yet we still see no bump in autism rates during the introductions of any vaccine. What we do see is a steady increase in autism rates that have been going up for a while. What this shows is increased acceptance of formerly "borderline" conditions in the mainstream. This is why we have 2 MILLION children on ritalin in the US alone. Why parents go "doctor shopping" to get their children diagnosed as "hyperactive" or "ADD." You call it sticking my head in the sand, I call it being realistic.

What I see is that we don't children dying from preventable diseases. We don't have kids with polio or mumps. People don't suffer from tetanus. Do you know why pertussis used to be known as "bone-crack fever," children would cough so hard they would crack their ribs. Measles kill an estimated one million children every year in the third world. These are the facts, not conjecture unsupported by the facts.

Concerned Male
02-13-2006, 02:46 PM
Concerning vaccines being mandatory, I don't believe there are any schools in the US where it's required to be vaccinated? Every parent is entitled to exemptions?

foxfire4321
02-13-2006, 05:07 PM
Vaccination is mandatory UNLESS you get an exemption. You have to have a religious reason in most states, but granted most parents who are set against vaccination can get an exemption (religion is a fluid concept when it is useful).

The good thing is that most parents do get their children vaccinated, which keeps the population covered as a whole.

nastabasta
02-13-2006, 07:08 PM
yes. thank goodness for herd immunity.

foxfire4321
02-14-2006, 06:51 PM
Thank God... I was begining to think no one else was on the pro-vaccine side :)

foxfire4321
02-15-2006, 11:22 AM
To me the saddest part of this arguement comes from who gets hurt. Almost all of the parents who sit here and rant and rave about the evils of vaccination are not at risk (they were most likely vaccinated against the worst things when they were young). All of these chiropractors and naturopaths that beat us with unsupported arguements were also likewise vaccinated as youths. The people who are endangered in this debate are the children, the people who have no say. I have seen firsthand what many of these diseases will do to children (usually do to the "well-meaning" decision of their parents) and I will be keeping that vaccination schedule when we have children.

dannysmom
02-15-2006, 03:53 PM
What about the children who are "hurt" because of an adverse vaccine reaction? Do you just dismiss it an say "oh, well, it's for the greater good." I don't think the parents of these kids would agree. If and when you do have children, I hope that they will not suffer any damage from the vaccines, short or long term.