Hi all,
It's clear that some of started suboxone earlier than other, and that now some for various reasons have decided to get off the suboxone, they are suddenly feeling that they have exchanged one addictiion for another. I felt that way before I started suboxone, at least in my head, but now that I've started it, I'm more grateful than anything else that my life does not revolve around where my next 'pill' will come from.

I'm wondering, do you think, in some subconscious way, that you will just those who choose to remain on suboxone for a long time, or will you feel deep inside that you're better off than those who choose to remain on it? There was an incident somewhere else, where this woman was on methadone for a very long time. Many years.
They kept on telling her she wasnt clean because she was on methadone and she was still actively using. She was insulted, ridiculed about her putting off her taper, etc. It was really sad.
Suddenly she's back and she says she's finished with the taper, and now she's thinking the same way as the people who kicked her to the curb when she was constantly defending herself (along with many others who helped defend her).
Now she feels that those on methadone are still active addicts, still taking drugs and only now that she's off everything, does she see the light.

What do you think of this?
Murphy

Hey Murphy,

I just responded to a post that addressed this a little.

I don't think anyone should say that if one is on sub or meth that they aren't clean! Granted, being on one of the two, you are obviously not completely medication free, but to me, it is a "stepping stone" to sobriety. Being on these meds allows one to be free of the lying, cheating, doctor-shopping, betraying families trust, etc. and work for the day they can be completely med free. Even if one has to stay on it for life, so be it. I would label that person clean.

I have a very strong faith in God and I believe He can help one overcome any addiction and I also believe He gave us "good sense" to use doctors and medications to obtain sobriety if needed!

Yes, I am trying to come off my sub, but for reasons of my own. Not that I don't view myself as clean already, but just that I want to "rid" my body of everything and get on a good exercise program and routine and eat better and just see if I can't get some things "ironed" out without some of my medications. Do I think I am better than you? HECK NO! Sobriety is sobriety- no matter what path you choose to obtain it!

Have a good night,
Michelle :)

Michelle,

I expected a response like that from you - didnt expect differently, really.
So thank you - it was a good response.

I wish more people would think that way.
I just think there's not just ONE way and if it isn't that ONE way, any person should be judged or labeled as unclean or still an addict, etc.
It's a path.
And at this point, I dont know how long I will be on it - depends on alot of things. Insurance, how strong I feel mentally, etc.
But to those that plan on being on it forever - for 'whatever' reason, I would say congratulations to you, just as I would to someone who struggled to be on nothing.
Both are on the same path.
Murphy

Just curious, but you said you expected a response like that from me...is that a good thing or bad thing? The way that was worded just had me curious as to what you meant.

You are so right, sobriety is a path and it may be taken in different ways as long as we all reach the destination...sobriety...that is what is important...not how we got there...just that we are there!




Michelle :)

suboxone is a opiate/methadone is a opiate/hydrocodone/oxycodone/ec t.....youll never be free while we are on these......

I could not agree more with Michelle's post. It is societies prejudice and ignorance that prevents many from seeking treatment and forces others out of the same care that has been lifesaving. This attitude has filled the jails, the streets and the graveyard with the victims of societies petty little fears. Addiction is a chronic disease and once you have it, you must deal with it one way or another for the rest of your life. You will never be free on or off the drugs. Twelve step approaches have been a miserable failure for over 50 years. Harm reduction is the only method of treatment that has proved successful. Taking one small pill in the morning is a small price to pay compared to the cumulative suffering of all the addicts throughout the world. Most if not all chronic diseases are treated with medications. Addiction is the only one that carries such a negative stigma. It is a crying shame.

Michelle and Bodymechanic, I couldn't AGREE more with your posts. Bodymechanic, you took the words right out of my mouth. My young daughter was addicted to oxy's and she has tried everything (NA, detox, half-way houses) and none of these worked. She went on suboxone and she now has a GREAT life. She works and goes to school. She could never have this quality of life if not for the suboxone. I tell her not to care what others think of suboxone, because it's working for her and probably has saved her life. She has a young friend her age, who is in and out of rehabs, she goes to NA every day and still uses heavily. Last time she had an od, they almost lost her. When I mentioned suboxone to her mom, she said that taking suboxone would be substituting one addiction for another. My god, I almost died when she said that. I would be willing to try anything to help my daughter. If she was sick with any other disease, the mother would be willingly try the medication to control the disease. I think the mom might be getting ideas from the girl's boyfriend who was heavily into NA. I think my daughter needs SMART recovery, and the support that they give. But I really think that sometimes the young kids get into more trouble attending NA meetings, because they meet more kids who can get them the pills. I think for mature people, NA could work.

Just curious, but you said you expected a response like that from me...is that a good thing or bad thing? The way that was worded just had me curious as to what you meant.


Michelle :)
I think very highly of you and your opinions. So I expected good comments from you!
Murphy

I could not agree more with Michelle's post. It is societies prejudice and ignorance that prevents many from seeking treatment and forces others out of the same care that has been lifesaving. This attitude has filled the jails, the streets and the graveyard with the victims of societies petty little fears. Addiction is a chronic disease and once you have it, you must deal with it one way or another for the rest of your life. You will never be free on or off the drugs. Twelve step approaches have been a miserable failure for over 50 years. Harm reduction is the only method of treatment that has proved successful. Taking one small pill in the morning is a small price to pay compared to the cumulative suffering of all the addicts throughout the world. Most if not all chronic diseases are treated with medications. Addiction is the only one that carries such a negative stigma. It is a crying shame.
:bouncing:

BodyMechanic - I just felt this post was worth repeating. Agree 100%. And Chef, I know what you're saying, as long as you're taking suboxone, etc. you'll never be be free of opiates, drugs, etc. If i stopped, god knows what I'd never be free of and the consequences of that - for me - and so many others. Again, great post above.
Murphy

Hi all-
Lilas mom..right on!!Your daughter deserves to have a life w/o all the insanity of active drug using!This is a way out for all of us..that could not get away from the grasp of opiate addiction.
Unfortunately-im one of those people whom opiates worked well for..my depression/lethagy/etc.It also caused alot of problems/due to legality/impure street drugs/finances/and the knowledge i was controled by my addiction.
Now i take 1/2 pill in the morning(4 mgs) doctor prescribed suboxone..and i no longer use illicit drugs/barely crave/and my receptors are happy.
Am i clean from opiates?NO.But im not drug-seeking/sneaking/draining my bank account or doing anything illegal.That makes my life better.
Isn't that what its all about?Quality of life.
If someone is hung up on whether im sober or not..tough cookies..cos my life is 100% better than when i was active..
Lilas mom...your daughters friends mom is way off base...she would rather see her daughter suffer????Bizarre.
Im not an X user of subox but i was moved by your response to this thread.
Had to say my peace.
Murph/and all...Goddess Bless..you are ok!Do watcha gotta do!
Sister Heather

think of it this way.... if a pro bodybuilder injects himself with insulin to boost his GH and is not dependent, at some point he will become insulin dependent and HAVE to use insulin just like any other diabetic to live.

Even if it IS trading one drug for another or an opiate to an opioid, whatever..... You're just putting back in what you took out for all these years so you can sustain life.

You know, I take trazodone for coaine w/d as well as methadone for opiate dependency, No one ever says..... OMG! you're on trazodone! But methadone is like a curse word......

Layne..
Good analogy...its true..my brain needs the opioid..messing w/ those pathways..consistently for years.
Its a drag what i did to myself.
Talkin'bout "layne stayley" last nite w/ a young guy whose got 50 days off H-hes a musician too..and we were talking about when AIC..came out and alot of the friends i was hanging w/(1990-92)..all started doing dope..Kurt/layne/Perry were the heros of the time and everyone was trying to capture that dope feel in there music..sounds stupid now..but its still goes on..hes only 22..and he was telling me he can't listen to it..cos its a trigger..12 yrs later young kids..are looking to them like my generation dug thunders/iggy/keith..im ranting..but your name conjoured up the memory..and how we hold our rock heros so high..we want to be like them..and how many kids end up messing w/ the hard stuff to find that edge and end up all messed up/losing there bands/minds/and lives.
anyway..i agree w/ your post..
heather

I wish i would have listened to his music earlier, the only reason I used him as a reference because he was known to be very reclusive, and spent his using time alone and clean time alone.... really.... I was actually surprised to see there was someone else in this world who hides in the dark and plays wwe smackdown all day :D Im a jerry fan, i never really liked layne until he died, im a guitarist, we hate the pretty frontmen :)

Layne..
I was never a huge fan of the band..but liked em..i dig the old stuff-i play guitar/write music/etc.Had a deal w/ a major..toured around us/europe..until the band went down the tubes..cos of drugs.
Still play..played around again last year for a while- till i relapsed..and went into hiding again.
Im very reclusive too...hermit..but i get together w/ some friends and jam once/while.
Suboxone now..trying to just deal w/ the complications..read alot/write..got some new ideas but its very slow moving.
How about you?Playing?
Heather

Hi I just wanted to make a comment about those people that seem to think that if you are taking methadone or the sub are somehow still "addicted". First of all, addiction is a behavior,not whether or not you take a "pill".If you take the methadone or sub,and the addictive "behavior" stops,the Dr shopping,thinking about how you are going to get your pills today,thinking about just how you are going to get the ones after that,the secrecy,lying,stealing(there's more but you know what they are)then you have now stopped the addictive behavior.If you can once again be there for your family as a dependable mother,wife,father or husband.Once again,that behavior has stopped.If someone can feel normal again and lead a productive life by taking a pill everyday?Thats not addiction thats called having to be on something for a better quality of life,that is a dependency.Look at it this way,my son had a transplant three years ago, he has to take seven different meds to help keep him from rejecting his liver, and maintain a really great quality of life,is that being addicted?No he is dependent on them.There is a really big difference.If you had to take high blood pressure meds everyday,to prevent heart disease or a stroke,would that really be any different than having to take something like methadone?If for what ever reason the person feels at some point that they want to go off these drugs,that is entirely their decision.Having options here is for some people a life or death issue,and to knock someone for staying on them is really sick.It is no body elses business what another person decides to do.I think that it boils down to more of an "if I had to suffer through this ,you should too" type thing. I just feel better to have gotten that off my chest.Thanks,Marcia May god bless you all for doing what you are doing here.

Wow, Thats a pretty bold statement. I agree 100 percent with everything you said. I just thank God there is a drug like Suboxone out there or I would be in all kinds of trouble. This drug has saved my life and will continue saving lives as long as its available. I am just treating the disease that I have been dealt.

Go Feelbad!!! You are so right! It drives me nuts... I do think you are right that some people (just some... not everyone) thinks that we should have to suffer everyday just like they do. I'm so proud of your post. Thank you! Suboxone has saved my life too!

Banker,

Just curious as to what you meant by some people think that you should be suffering every day....by not taking the sub or meth? What do you mean by that? Just don't understand what you are talking about- please explain if you have some free time.

Take care,
Michelle

heather.... yes i still play but I spend most of my time now doing nothing. The fam bought me a les paul for christmas with a card, "play it in good health".... they're trying :) , at least I have a new toy now. Im going to WA for my birthday too, I love them so much but cant show it :(

Feelbad.... The addiction is the craving, Ive never stolen nor lied when it came to drugs. That is where you sparate the "drug seeking" from the addiction. And when you want it to be over, that is where the "dependency" takes over and you go on a program like methadone and buprenorphine. BUT YOU ARE VERY RIGHT, and yet a very good post. And I am very sorry about your son, I am in stage one do to my drug use and I will find out it's progression after my recent biopsy results. Im not on any medication for it yet.

LaynesAddiction, First, I have to ask,when you stated that you are in stage one, did you mean liver failure or god forbid cancer?Would really like to know what you are dealing with if you don't mind.thanks for the kind words.Just tired of hearing about and seeing first hand how people who have to stay on these drugs are being shunned and ridiculed for being on a drug that offers them a way out and can restore them to a productive life,you know?And I have the utmost respect for those who can take this one step further and are able to get off those drugs too.I honestly think that people who are on these drug therapies should start their own type of support groups as having been through a twelve step program and also NA, I know that these people can become ostrasized(sp?)from the very support groups that they are seeking help from.Anyone who recognizes that they are in a slow downward spiral of addiction should be proud that they had the guts to confront it and do something about it. Michelle, what I ment by that statement that some people feel that you have to suffer like they have suffered is more of an observation that I saw in some people who attended NA meetings.Some of them would really get down on those who were "still" taking methadone(they didn't have the sub back way back when when I went to these meetings)They would tell them that they would never be considered as beating their addictions while on this drug and that to them, you had to go through the full blown WDs and do a little suffering before you could call yourself a recovering addict.Believe me, most of them had already suffered ,that is why they were at these meetings just looking for the support they felt they needed to help keep them on track.I just didn't understand the logic behind that as these people who were on the methadone, went from doing all the normal negative behaviors associated with active use to being once again productive members of society.Some were actually able to salvage shattered marriages,and regain the trust of friends that they had hurt during their active use of their drugs of choice.I am really proud of you and the choice that you made.You say that you have no willpower,and yet you are going ahead with and living through something that takes a tremendous amont of will power,and fortitude just to get through everyday.You are doing this because you felt that this was the right decision for you and that is really a gutsy thing to do.You are alot stonger than you think you are girl.And you deserve a medal for being able to do all this while also taking care of small children. I know that you will be successful in your quest as this is something that you honestly feel is the best thing for you and your family.I hope that you didn't feel in any way that what I stated in the other post was in anyway related to you and what you are dealing with.It was merely an observation of other peoples reactions to people that I had observed while doing the NA meetings.Hang in there,and I am honestly very proud of you. Marcia

Thanks Marcia for clearing that up- I just didn't understand what ya'll were talking about.

On anonther thread, I was asking the same thing, because someone stated that AA/NA would not view me as clean since I am still on Lexapro and Xanax (very seldom though). But I imagine I'll have to be on my Lexapro for awhile and that's okay with me. I don't understand how they could say I am not clean because of an anti-depressant.

I would consider someone clean if they were on sub or meth, too. To me, an addict is someone abusing medications- illegal of legal. If one is lying, cheating, stealing, etc. to obtain these medications and the meds are "controlling" one's life. If one is on sub or meth, they are regaining control of their life- ya know? It is absolutely the opposite of the life they lived while abusing drugs.

I don't know if I'll ever attend AA/NA because of this line of thinking- I like that they emphasize the abililty of God's strength and power to help one overcome drugs, but to think someone cannot take anything or they are not clean...not sure about that!

Thank you for explaining all that to me. Take care and God bless,
Michelle

Michelle - my experience has been like Marcia's. I told you about my AA friends who think I'm just as bad off as I was when I was taking 20 lortab a day because I'm on Suboxone. I think sometimes because I'm able to do well and not have to go nuts every day because of cravings, that they get mad about that. I really, really am so thankful for Suboxone. You've heard me say it a million times, I would be dead without it. I didn't mean what I said toward you at all and I agree with Marcia... I'm so amazed by your progress every day. You are going to make it through this and you will look back and think this was all a bad dream one day. I pray that for you.

I don't know, Banker, I am having the worst day possible. For the sake of repeating myself, you can read my post under the "rosie, john 3:16 thread." Just when I think things are really on their way....BAM!

Life is funny........

Feelbad-
Great post- i can relate..Its a fine line-but there is a differance..and i wholeheartedly agree!(sorry to hear bout your son)..im a mom..love my boy-hes got health issues too..
Mich/Banker-Hi guys!Were all trying to get on w/ it-the best we can..and the sub has helped us all..i could be dead too..i know life is so fragile-weve all done some crazy ****...we are lucky to not be active right now..

Layne..I pull away from my family..i find it hard to show them how i feel-but its cos they can't show it.landed me in therapy..
Thats cool-i love gibsons..did i tell ya i play an SG?..thru a marshall..i suck..
but its a songwriting tool-i love it..power chords..rocknroll..good rhythmn player no leads..ive had a writers block it seems for years but i got new ideas-just lazy,used to live for the rawk now im a boring suboxoned/benzo'd zombie(creativly speaking).My heros are patti smith and john lennon(lots of others but im into poetry/lyrics-and the rawness..ya know?
How bout you?

Hi..just a few things. Michelle, you asked (don't know who) that why would some people like people who are taking meth or sub to suffer every day because they do. In my experience, in talking to people who have worked the steps, and worked hard, have made this a way of life (some may be still miserable) I've been on forums where it gets these people so mad if they hear y ou are on meth or sub, because they insist that we are just trading one addiction for another and are NOT really clean.

If you haven't done it there way (and they will insist that people like us are just taking the "easy' way out), they will call you unclean, not really with the program, still addicted,, etc.

Addiction is a combination of things. It's behavior but it's also physiological/psychological/psychosocial - so even though as someone said, we are clean because the addictive behavior has stopped; we may still be addicted physiologically (because of course we will still be going through withdrawal, our bodies are physically addicted to sub or meth).

But to me clean is what you feel about oneself. If you're life is manageable, good quality, etc, then you are clean and noone has the right to call you unclean. They may try, but they should be ignored. Y oull never convince them that you're fine..never.

I asked this question recently in my aftercare group which is coming to an end. There were many there who were detoxing, some after 2 weeks, etc. And after saying I've been on suboxone for 2 months, I asked everyone if they thought I was clean. The counselor felt it didn't matter what everyoone else thought, just what I thought, and what I felt. I feel clean. I feel free. There was just one woman that was coming off of heroin and suffering, a chronic relapser, who didn't think I was really clean because I was on this medication. I asked her why she didn't try it? as she had been in and out of this treatment center so many times, that they don't even want to treat her anymore, because she keeps relapsing. She says, becuase then i wouldn't be clean. But she's been on heroin, non-stop..so it's just weird the way people think sometimes.

And that's ridiculous that people of NA/AA don't think your clean because you're on an antidepressant or for me xanax when I need it. It's only because you're not doing things their way to a tee and I believe there are many ways to 'treat' addiction - not just their way. We're also required to go to NA meetings (even with suboxone) and my counselor suggested that I simply not tell them that I am on suboxone, because there will always be people that don't understand certain things, and you're there for good reasons which has nothing to do with suboxone, etc.

So, Michelle, don't not go to meetings because of this. They don't need to know about your other medications at all. It's not what they think; it's what you get out of the meetings and there are some things that anyone can get out of it - even non-addicted people. Take what you need, leave the rest.

And as usual I agree with what Banker had to say about it.
Murphy
sorry for writing so much

Murph - I do miss talking w/you. Seems like you haven't been on much. I really haven't either because of the 'big debate' about Sub and everything else. Also, like I've said before, with the Sub, It seems like I never had a drug problem and I'm my normal self (of course, what's normal to some... ) but I am my normal self, however, normal I ever was in the beginning. But I feel great about it. I feel good about myself. I feel badly for what I did during the drug abuse but with the Sub, it's so easy to make ammends and move forward. I'm just so excited about life these days. I'm excited that I can make plans and focus and complete tasks. It's just so weird. Anyway, Michelle... just like Murph said... go anyway and don't tell...
My sister has a bad drinking problem and she won't go to AA meetings because she takes Xanax and needs it. She is not going to stop taking it and so she won't go. Another point... and changing the subject (I'm all over the place tonight because I'm SO dang tired) but she is one of those people that gets mad because I'm not suffering on a day to day basis as she is trying to fight her illness. She tries to do it by herself and then fails every time. I've talked to her until I'm blue in the face and told her that until she goes to meetings, she will not be able to stop drinking by herself. She doesn't understand yet that she can't beat this alone. Anyway she told me one time "I wish there was a little pill that would just fix my alchoholism" so I know she feels some anger toward me that with the help of Sub, I could pull myself out of the death trap of addiction.

feelbad - sorry it takes me so long to reply, fibrosis not cancer, I was passing a lot of blood and bile, that is was actually made me check into my last treatment center. I never really take pills with apa but they had to do an acetaminophen level because I was taking lortab that day. I think it was like 47 which isnt bad but ive had toxic drug exposer before from just oxycontin and dilaudid. Some times it hurts so bad I cant even stand up and ill just lean to the side. Then ill get a shot in the butt. owwwww!

sadsister, You cant go wrong with those power chords :D and to this day i have no idea why he shot lennon and not yoko. :) I love the fab 4, george harrison's the man! but im not good at writing silly love songs so clapton is my main musician. Him in george have a live import album, did you hear it? funny they were friends and they both were in love with patty aka "layla" :)

My opinion and merely that, it is my opinion.

My Md has treated opiate withdrawel with suboxone and has also treated my anxioty and panick with paxil. These are seperate from recovery. They are medical conditions and happen to me physically inside my body. Recovery to alchohalism and addiction is a spiritual condition and falls squarely on me to surrender to a solution that has been freely given to me. I have found that solution in 12 step recovery rooms of all sorts everywhere I go.
Plain and simple it works. Be as open minded as you would have others be open minded to your problems and the solution is yours to have.

Loving all addicts and alchohalics everywhere
Scott

PS: dont think that because I can type I live a blissfull life . My life is filled with questions and fears just as is everyones ,and I love that there are many outlets to share them.

ill walk on eggshells here :)..... Alcohol and other drugs damage your brain, some worse than others. Faith gives you something to hope for and hope is good. But some need a stronger hold on their chemical makeup. Im glad your 12 steps are working for you, and may god keep working his miracles..... for you.

Cade