I have just begun ending my 3rd "major" binge on hydrocodone, and this stuff about addiction being a disease is starting to make a little more sense to me. I think I remember arguing on this board back in October that I felt abusing these pills was a choice with only my weak, selfish self to blame. I changed everything in my life that I could think of to steer clear of them, but now it has happened again, and I sincerely cannot understand why I did it. Maybe it is my choice to take the first pill (or handful), but something happens after that and I am thinking I am ready for NA. Gotta say, the one meeting I went to way back when really freaked me out...mainly the chanting and the singling out of the new person.

I am an educated, hard working professional, mother, and wife, and have been told that I am way too rational (everything is black/white) for my own good. My only career dream since age 16 has been to go to pharmacy school and become a pharmacist, and now I have to finally let that go. I have quit my job, and I have lost any friends I ever had. Husband had to take our child to work with him yesterday because I don't remember how to be a mother without the pills.

Would like any opinions on this next question...could methadone be the right choice for me? I am on day 7 of withdrawals, so past the suicidal part but still in really bad shape. Although I have only been through this withdrawal horror 3 times, looking back, I have been toying with this drug for over 7 years. I would think that you would have to withdrawal from methadone the same way you do from hydrocodone, and would I really want this in my future again?

Anyway, thanks for listening.

Christin, I totaly wanted to get back to you on your post. I don't know if you have read anything I have writen but I will tell you that I am a recovered Herion addict I don't know what it is like to withdraw from pills or meth but I will tell you that I have heard w/d from meth is worse than herion. and just because you started up again dose not make you a weak person. addiction is both I think an addiction and a choise I have that argument with myself every time it rears it's head in my face and I have'nt use since aug 17th 1999. I have been on something since I was nine it stated with sniking beer. But how I never managed to have a pill addiction I don't know cuz if it made you fell different I shoved it in my mouth. When you come off a long run you don't just go to a life you don't remember it takes time. I Have been outta prison for over 9 years and I still have that prison additude some times. It's behavior it's nothing eles you have to learn to be mindful of what is going on with how you are feeling dose that make seance? When you feel like useing whats going on are you sad. mad dissappointed, when you know it's easier to sit with what is going on. I have know what it is like to have an addiction and have kids involved. I can't have them. So I can't help you there. I just want you know you are not alone at least not here.
Goddess Bless
Stacey

I have to hurry --- late for my counselor's appt. but have you ever heard of Suboxone? Please go back and read some of my posts regarding it. It is sort of like methadone except you don't have to go to a clinic to get it. It's saved my life and I am my normal self again. It's like I almost don't even have a problem being on this med. I do not crave whatsoever and my depression is GONE. I'm so normal and happy,.... it's just amazing. I'll write more in a little while. Good luck and maybe you can check into the Suboxone thing when you read this. You do have to withdraw from it too, however a very slow taper should lead to minimal wds. As long as you taper correctly. I will be on Suboxone for a long time as it has made me the person I always wanted to be.... confident, organized, a good mom, etc. It works! I don't care about w/ds, it works and keeps me off of hydros and everything elese. I'll write more later.

Thanks guys. I have heard of subox. My husband has told me that I just argue and throw up road blocks to anyone's suggestions or advice, and I guess that is just part of my addiction right now. But here are my concerns/questions: My state ranks 48 or 49 of having the least available resources for mental health/addiction. Am sure I can surf and find somewhere to call about subox, but I understand the waiting lists are months long and well, I just don't see convincing myself at that point that I need any help. There IS, however, a methadone clinic right here in town. Other than the inconvenience of daily clinic visits, what are the pros/cons of each? Has anyone gone through both methadone and subox? Has anyone gotten OFF of either and been OK? Thanks again for all your words of wisdom, comfort, advice!

Hello, I have gone through both methodone detox and suboxone detox and I can tell you this, you DON'T want to touch methadone! I know there are many advocates for methadone but I believe it is the devil! I was a heorin(sp) addict for 3 years. I lost custody of my child and lost everything. I went on methadone to change my life. It didn't! Besides going to a clinic everyday where you are around some very "shaddy" people, not that everyone on methadone is shaddy, but I did find that almost all of them were just there to save money for their next fix or combined the methadone high with cocain or zanax for a different buzz, it always made me feel dirty and sleezy. Also, the withdraw on methadone is crazy. I tapered slow, I was only on 40 mg, I even tapered under a dr's supervision. This stuff does not leave your system in a few days. It takes months and sometimes years to feel better and I am NOT exaggerating! After 3 or 4 months of literally not being able to move I started taking vicodens. I was hooked on the pain killers for 5 years. I have been clean since march 2003. I am on suboxone now. Although I did try to detox off of it last april, it was horrible and after a week I went back on it. I only take 2 mg a day, which is a very, very, very low dose. I don't have health insurance and it was the cheapest dose I could buy and it works for me. Like Banker, my life has changed completely. I feel what I would consider normal. Keep in mind I have spent a life time depressed. But this suboxone works. A lot people may tell you that you are just replacing one drug for another. Well if that is the case, so be it. I don't care. My life is better than it has ever been in my life, I am 37. I am no longer depressed, compulsive, needy, lonely, hateful, anxious. I don't impulse buy any more, I don't yell at my kid anymore, I actually have money to save now! Anyway, I advocate suboxone. Although it is always best to be completely drug free and this is my dream, but if that can't come to pass, I am a chronic relapser, than I'll stay on the suboxone and be happier for it. What ever works is what I say! Keep in mind that this is my take on the whole meth v sub thing. Other people have other ideas but this is what has worked for me. Like BAnker I hardly ever think of my addiction anymore, and sometimes think my addiction was a dream. I am very happy and well adjusted. Good luck, Stacy

Thanks Stacy. I have been surfing and it sounds like this subox is actually being studied to treat depression alone as well. Makes sense to me! You know, I never took the hydro's with the thought of "getting high". I see everyone around me and they seem so "normal". And that is all I ever wanted...to feel capable of handling life, not running away from it! When I take those pills, I am a better mother and wife, the house stays clean, and I look forward to everyday life. I never looked at it as an "escape"...it was what I needed to be a "normal" person! Of course, this is coming from an addict, so I may be full of crap, but that is how I have felt about it.

Got the list of docs in my state who do subox. But of course there is another roadblock. We don't have a landline (internet is cable connection)....only have a cell phone, whose battery is apparantly dead and I cannot find it. I swear if social services came over right now they would take my child just for the filth that this house has turned into over the last week...I know it here somewhere! So, when I find the darn thing I will begin making calls.

Thanks again everyone!

My take on it is that opiate addiction is a chronic relapsing disease. Most people will need something for maintenance for the rest of their lives, if they are truly afflicted, as I feel I am. I'm hoping that in being adequately treated for what else is wrong with me, that I can successfully taper from the sub, which I want DESPERATELY to do because I HATE the effect it has on my digestive system!! But people will respond differently with different meds. Some may be happy on sub forever. A few will successfully taper, and the same is true for methadone. You have to look at accessability and cost for both in your area to decide which one to try first. You can always get on at the clinic immediately and transfer to sub maintenance when it becomes available.

So, do you have to be in acute wd's from hydro to get on subox, or do you have to be NOT in acute wd's to get on it? My worry has been that by the time I am able to get any help, I will have finished wd's and have convinced myself that I don't need help. I always am aware that I need help for depresssion and have played with several antidepressants, but my past behavior predicts that once the withdrawals are gone, I convince myself I will never use again and won't seek help. Sound familiar to anyone?

Definitely does to me. They would like for you to be in the early stages of withdrawals... I was on hydros and a 'friend' gave me some methadone to take for about two weeks to detox. Well, it worked (many times) but I would only make it for about another two weeks and then start again, mainly when I got paid and could get some. Anyway, the final time I was so desperate and so ready to quit but I just couldn't. It felt like rock bottom for me. I found a doctor and went to him hoping he would prescribe me methadone so that I wouldn't have to go to the clinic. Well, I went in and I had taken a meth that morning so he couldn't start me on Suboxone immediately. He gave me the fentanyl patches (have no idea why) and told me to take them for three weeks. Then, once I stopped, he said to start on the Suboxone when I was in w/ds. I was scared because there is a disclosure in the medicine that says if you do it wrong, it will send you into acute withdrawals. Anyway, because I was so scared, I went from the patches, back to methadone for about a week and a half. Then... got off of those and went back to hydros. Took about 60 in a weekend and had my last 5 on Monday, December 1st in the a.m. Around 2:00 p.m. (about 8 hours after I had taken the hydros) I was beginning withdrawals and I started the Sub and the rest is history. It really is amazing and I'm such a different person now. Just like Stacey, I have suffered from major depression and odd mood disorders. Now, I'm just kind of back to normal. I also take Lexepro and xanax as well. Actually, I'm better than normal. It is so hard to describe how you feel. You aren't drugged or high or anything... you just simply feel o.k. You also are able to 'feel' again so you will look at relationships differently and everything. When I was using, I thought I was being the best mom, girlfriend, worker, etc. Little did I know how horrible I was until I started to see things clearly. One thing you should know is that when you first start taking it, you will be elated that you are feeling so good (physically) and then depression will set in because of 'missing' the drugs and/or realizing the damage you did during your drug usage. I would highly recommend taking an antidepressant when you start the sub. I did and only experienced the depression for just a few days. Anyway, I have not taken methadone long term so I don't know about withdrawals from that but since I've been on Suboxone, I can definitely tell (sometimes) if I skip a dose. Other people can take really low doses and/or take it every other day with no problems. Point is, I have felt withdrawals when I've missed my dosage so I know they do exist with Suboxone... Again, I don't care because it has simply changed my life unbelievably. I've only been on it for three months but now, my doctor only makes me come in once a quarter to get a prescription. He said I could take it as long as I wanted to. I think it will be a while. Also, my insurance covers all but $40. Needless to say, if you are really ready to quit abusing drugs and I mean really ready, then I highly recommend it.

Wow. Your words are my thoughts. Especially the part about how great you think you are doing with everything with the drugs, and the reality about how wrong you were setting in after you stop. If I can ever find my phone, I will call every clinic listed in my state and try to find someone to treat me with subox. If by the time I get there, I have been clean for a month or more, any idea what their reaction is going to be? Should I start using again just before the appt.? (How perverse does that sound...I think that is the first time i have laughed in 2 weeks).

If you can go a whole MONTH with NOTHING, then maybe you should try to fix whatever it is that compels you to "binge" again BEFORE attempting maintenance. Whether it's depression, ADD, or some other psychological issue or spiritual longing--if there is any way at all for you to treat what ails you apart from your affinity for opiates, that would keep you from having to go the maintenance route, try it. I'm just saying, opiate maintenance should be your last resort. Banker's situation is unique--most people endure a LOT more expense and hassle to be on sub or methadone than she is. You need to find out what your options are in your area--and again, if you CAN find a way to stay off opiates altogether, by all means try that first!

You are probably right, Jeffie. I just want so badly to feel what I think normal people feel. I've tried different antidepressants, and while I think they help, I have never felt what my mind says "normal" should be.

I guess the good news about my addiction is that (so far) I only have figured one way to get them, which was at work. And my husband made me quit that job. He has threatened that if I ever try to work around those pills again, he will "turn me in". I have no medical reason for pain killers, and even if I decided to dr. shop, I could never get enough (I was taking up to 40 of the 10 mg pills a day).

The only drug that has ever made me feel "normal" is hydrocodone. Which is why I am getting so fixated on using subox as an "antidepressant".

I feel pretty bad today. Husband took away my primatine (ephedrine) pills, which I was starting to take to try to find some energy again. He has forbidden me to order phentermine, and I am just crawling out of my skin, wondering if I will ever be able to do a load of laundry again. The uppers like phentermine are not my drug of choice, but at least they would enable me to get some things done around the house!

Obviously, I need some mental health professional sort of help. But when you have no insurance and aren't poor enough for medicaid, there aren't many options. I like coming to these boards...this is the only thing I find myself wanting to do at all, and I appreciate everyone's perspectives and encouragement. :)

Well, opiates ARE great for depression, no doubt about that! I was experiencing a great deal of turmoil when I tapered down to 8mgs sub from 48/day, got on Concerta, and it seems to have helped a lot in my situation. Am down to 2mgs sub/day now... Both Concerta and Suboxone are relatively expensive drugs though if you're paying cash for them. Dexedrine is a lot cheaper from what I understand, and methadone might be inexpensive in your area as well. Again, try as many natural approaches as you can first though. For instance, have you FORCED yourself to walk around the block, I mean, a good distance, every day? Drink LOTS of water, and at least a B & C vitamin? Plus flaxseed oil is good, but will take a few weeks to feel a difference from it. Seriously I understand that exercise can work WONDERS on your endorphin and adrenal systems!

Walk around the block? I can't even run a bath. I'm still having to brace myself against the walls anytime I move from one room to another. I've heard that advice before, and I can't ever make myself do it. In the past 8 days, all I have eaten is a McDonald's ice cream cone, and that was 3 days ago. I've been overweigh all my life, and I laughingly think that maybe I keep doing this to myself because opiate withdrawals are a very quick and effective way to lose weight! I've lost 28 pounds in 8 days. I am not hungry and refuse everything my husband shoves at me. Actually, we tried to order pizza delivery last night, and they just never showed up. Of course, I took at as a sign that he was wrong to try to make me eat.

I'm not worried about the cost of meds at this point. The only reason we have no insurance is b/c we chose mine over his, only mine didn't kick in until March 1st, and now that I quit, we have to figure out how long til we can get on his insurance. Short term, I can afford meds. What I can't afford is the $10,000 these hospitals charge for treatment, which is really where I think i need to be.

Anyway, I will now make it my goal to take a bath today. Maybe the walk will come tomorrow :)

Christin,

I would NOT start back on hydros before going to the doctor. I would not take the Sub for depression alone. It's for chronic relapsers... If you can stay off of hydros, then all you have to do is find a good antidepressant and maybe go to NA/AA meetings. I really would not be a prisoner to suboxone if I didn't absolutely have to. It works for people who just cannot stop taking pills. I would NOT recommend it for depression alone. Christin, I know you are so desperate to find help, but I would use Suboxone as a last resort, simply because you do not want to be chained to this drug forever and that is something that I'm actually facing... forever on Sub. Another thing is, your addiction was pretty bad - 40 a day... I was only at 20 per day... that's the only reason why I think that you 'may' need it. However, there is an option to take it for a year or two... then SLOWLY wean off of it. You learn how to live your life without drug searching all of the time and definitely without the constant 'high'. I'm not saying don't do it... I just want you to really think long and hard about it. I'll be honest, it is a quick fix but in the long run, I'm concerned about what I will have to face if/when I come off of it. It's going to be tough... for sure! Please keep us posted, K? I do want you to get help soon... I just want you to make the best possible decision that you can.

I really appreciate your guidance. But you know, I already take effexor, and even though that is obviously not classified as an "addictive" drug, the withdrawal's from getting off that are pretty severe too. So my thinking is that if I am going to be chained to something that I will likely never be able to stop taking, and that would cause the same amount of agony in withdrawals, then shouldn't I take one that actually WORKS? Because obviously for me the effexor isn't working. I know these are all questions for doctors, which I am having difficulty finding. Difficulty for the dumbest of all reasons...I can't find my phone! We only have the mobile, and during the chaos of the first few days of withdrawals, it got lost and guess the battery is dead. Obviously that situation gets fixed sometime soon, but the seconds ticking by while I sit here alone and unable to help myself are pure hell.

Still haven't made it to the bath...but found 2 clean towels! WOOHOO! :)

They are in the process of re-slating the use of sub for both depression and pain, from what I understand... Personally, I can't stand the constipation that accompanies the drug, and therefore can't wait to get off it altogether! As for NA meetings, each to his own, but I find them DEPRESSING, so that in my mind they would not be a treatment for depression. But that's just me...

Jeffie, I have the same feeling about those meetings, however, I have only been to 1 NA and a handful of AA. Most everyone, though, keeps telling me to give it another chance, go to 6 meetings before you make up your mind, yada yada yada. But how can we knock something that works for so many? I'm just not sure they are for me.

Husband is trying to get me into some kind of sliding fee scale inpatient thing about 2 hours away from here. He is a recovering alcoholic/addict, and he says his experience in the inpatient sorts of NA/AA meetings is much different than the ones here in town. Figure I will try that, then revisit the subox idea.

As for my progress, I took a bath yesterday, and have begun laundry and kitchen cleaning today. Very little, as the mess is very big, but I am trying to start. Convinced husband to let us go buy new mobile phones tonight, so am looking forward to that! Unsure of how long I can actually stand up without passing out, but going to put a frozen pizza in the oven in a bit and see if eating that helps my strength. Still dreaming of some phentermine pills though...