HI I'm new to the board. :) I am a Division one athlete and just recently found out that I have DDD (Degenerative Disc Disease) on my L4 disc. The doctor told me to quit pole vaulting and running and that there is nothing I can do about it. :confused: My team really needs me and I was wondering if there is anything that I can do so I would be able to compete again soon? Also, how does one get this type of disease? and Is there anyway to slow it down or stop it?

- Injured Athlete

I had spinal surgery over 7 years ago, I have seen 39 surgeons and they all had one thing in common and that is the DDD. I was told that if you take 100 people off the street and test them for DDD they will probably have it. Most people have a small to moderate amount of DDD for one reason or the other. Our son at age 18 was told the same thing in his senior year in High School (that was over 3 years ago) he played football, track and was the State Champion in Heavy weight lighfting, he didnt give up we did alot of research, and thank God having been what I had been through, he didn't limit his activities, he now works in the oilfield lifting extremely heavy objects everyday, his DDD hasn't slowed him down, Have you sought only one opinion, or several, I am glad we sought the opinion of several different opinions, and so is he, I wish you good luck in sports, and life. Sighned living with a spinal disorder for life, bobana10

Hi Injured Athlete,

I know the frustration you must be feeling right now. It's hard to stop doing something you love and that makes you feel alive. W hat makes your situation that much harder is that there is no clear end in sight. With most other injuries, you are given a timeline for recovery and can say, “OK, I’ll be out for 3 months, and then can start rehabbing.” But this back stuff is quite a different kettle of fish. Will your back get better if you stop stressing it? No one can really know. All I can tell you is that it's in your very best interests to try to see if it can. Here's a bit about my story and what I’ve learned.

The very first time I had any back pain was at the age of 37. I was playing competitive recreational tennis 4-5 times a week and sometimes more, working out with weight training, downhill skiing. When I started to feel back pain, I first tried to play through it, and continued to play tennis although less frequently. I loved to play and was competitive as hell, plus my teammates needed me. Then the pain got worse and I decided to stop playing for a few weeks. As soon as I felt better (like the day after I had my first day of no pain), I took up the racquet again. I was in pain right away, but did the same thing again. After another cycle of this, the pain never got any better and just continued to worsen.

When I finally got a medical diagnosis (DDD+annular tear), I asked the doctor if I had brought this on (the chronic pain, not the diagnosis) by continuing to play tennis while in pain. He told me a few things. First, the DDD that I had began in my early adulthood and was now pretty far advanced. You cannot make DDD worse by exercising. But, once the pain starts, your disc can get “locked into” an inflammatory process if you continue to stress it. Of course I stopped all athletics after that. Unfortunately, my back hasn’t gotten any better and I’ve lost more important things than athletics. I can’t go out to dinner, travel, or go the movies. It’s funny how less important sports become after you lose other things.

I’m now planning to have disc replacement surgery and am told there’s a good chance I’ll be back playing tennis again. I’ll gladly take that opportunity, but can tell you that the moment I feel any pain, I’ll stop this time until the medical folks give me the green light again. My best advice to you is to stop athletics and see if your disc will calm down. It is very possible that it will and that you could then safely return to sports. Best of luck!

--tennisnut

injured athlete:
Unoess you are a young kid, we all have DDD. It is a fact of life. I am surprized that the doc didn't tell you that.
If everyone that had it stopped doing what they are doing then the world would come to a screeching halt.
Do some research on DDD and get an MRI. Unless there is a nerve involved, there is no reason for this to effect your life.
I bet that every disk in my grandmother's back has either DDD, herniated, or bulging and she still dances.
I say patooey to docs who tell you to stop what you are doing. That leads to inflexability, depression, fat, and lack of motivation. Who want to get on that train.

seek another opinion :)

Getting a second, and third, and fourth opinion is always a good idea.

Another thing to factor in is exactly how much pain Injured Athlete is in.

Annular tears are often the source of pain in people who have DDD. These can take many months (some as long as 18 months) to heal. If you continue to aggravate the tear, it will not heal. Any spine doctor will tell you that. If there are no tears, then that's another story.

My MRI showed DDD. But the discogram revealed a grade V annular tear. The only way something like that will heal is to not continue to aggravate it with twisting, bending, etc. Of course you shouldn't stop exercising. Every spine doc I went to advised me to exercise as much as I could, but not to do any activity that caused or worsened pain.

Injured athlete should absolutely seek more information and opinions. But I would caution people against advising her to throw caution to the wind.

--tennisnut

Tennis nut:
Oh, I would not throw caution to the wind, but unless my MRI showed a tear or a bulge, then I would be as physical as possible.

I was just reading sites on why and why not to have surgery on my back and it is astounding when you look at the number of surgeries being done, unnecessarily these days.

The back business is BIG business these days. It is bankrupting CA. People have no idea what they are getting themselves into by opening that can of worms.

I had Prolotherapy done for my back problem, not an inviting idea, but it worked. My back is now stabilized and I didn't have to have surgery. There are so many alternatives. I still have a bulge in one disk and was told not to bend over or twist or it will herniate. Unless it is going to impinge on a nerve, I am still going to go about my everyday activities, exercise, walk, Yoga, stetches on my exercise ball, and play with my grandkids.

I also have arthritis in L4. I take arthritis meds for that.

I think that injured athlete should hold off on pole vauting, but hey, we all get DDD. Before we are my grandmother's age we all develop herniated disks. There is a lot of hoopala about aging. Our bodies age. DDD is normal.

If I were injuredathelete I would seek a lot of opinions, educate myself on the mechanics of the back and then take it from there. There are too many docs out there specializing in backs right now and for most for the money.

just my two cents,

:)

Betty-

I agree wholeheartedly. I have tried for 18 months to avoid surgery, using every possible conserative therapy available to me. Bottom line is that I have become increasingly debilitated to the point where I can't see continuing to live this way. There's really nothing left for me to try besides surgery. Trust me, I wish there was an alternative. Surgery should always be used as a last resort measure.

--tennisnut

Did you read The Burton Report yet? It had a lot of advice about NOT doing surgury.

I read that there is only three reasons for surgery, cancer, broken back or neck and I forgot the third but DDD is not one of them.

I can't post web sites here but you need to go surfing on the net. If you go to site that are not doctors sites, you will find that the recovery from back surgery rates is not great. 15% will go back for more surgery, I forgot what the failure rate is, and when a study was done, with in five years of surgery, those who did not have it were at the same level as those who did. Those who did not have surgery were able to find alternatives and got better on their own without going under the knife.

If everyone that had DDD had surgery, they would have to do every disk. It would be like a dental cleaning. They could set it up once a year after age thirty to repair their DDD.

There has to be something else going on in your back that is causing the pain. How are your facets? Are they wobbly? That could be your problem, or loose ligaments, which can be fixed with Prolotherapy.

Never, Never, go under the knife unless it is your ABSOLUTE last option.

Is your tear impinging on a nerve? If not, then let the tear heal. If it is, there are alternatives to surgery. :)

Betty,

I am really quite well acquainted with all of the research re. healing from back injuries. I know you mean well, but I have weighed all the facts and the fiction. There are just as many cockamamey noninvasive “cures” to back ails as they are overly aggressive surgeons who think that everyone who has been in pain a few months should be cut open. Believe me, there were plenty of docs who wanted to perform surgery on me when I was just 6 months into this nightmare. I said, “No way. I’m going to be patient and try other methods.” I then proceeded to try every conservative approach that had some scientific evidence to support its use. I did this over the course of 1 year. I have avoided sitting for an entire year now, and every single other activity that could stress my disc. I have tried ESIs, physical therapy, and, most recently, IDET. My course has been a gradual but steady downhill slide. Instead of improving or even holding steady, I have become more pain ridden and debilitated as time goes on. I am now on 140mg oxycontin (that’s a lot, just to keep me at a pain level of 6) and 3600 mg neurontin. If it wasn’t for these drugs, I would be bed ridden entirely. As it is, I spend 90% of my day horizontal. This is not to give you a sob story. There are plenty of people on these boards worse off. It’s just to let you know what has driven me to make the decision to have surgery.

I have had the full diagnostic work-up (MRI, discogram w/ CT, X-ray, etc). From these tests, the docs have ruled out any problems with facets, slippage, stenosis. There is no nerve root involvement. The MRI and discogram revealed a highly chemically sensitive disc (that is, sensitive at low pressure upon provocative discography) that was internally deranged (this is the medical term for a certain type of abnormal disc morphology) and had a grade V annular tear (radial, full-thickness tear). Discs that are chemically sensitive are very painful with almost any movement of the spine. That fits me to a tee. I cannot perform even the simplest core strengthening exercises because any movement (e.g., squeezing the gluts) causes intense pain. Do the doctors fully understand what causes discogenic pain? Clearly, not. But it certainly does exist and in some cases is severe and intractable.

There's a relevant randomized trial (study published in 2001) that compared outcomes in two groups of patients presenting with back pain: those who had lumbar fusion and those who were treated using conservative measures. They followed these patients for 2 years. At the end of year 2, 45% of patients who had fusion were judged by an independent rater has having a “good” or “excellent” outcome compared with 18% in the nonsurgical group. Looking at the other end of the spectrum, 22% of the surgical group was judged to have a poor outcome compared with 42% of the nonsurgical group. Now, we also know that 20% of people who have surgeries have problems down the line. But, those with a clear diagnosis of discogenic pain are much more likely to benefit from surgery the first time. As it is, I’m going to have ADR and not fusion, so I expect an even better chance for a successful outcome because ADR is associated with fewer complications than fusion. Even with these stats, if I thought I might end up in the 18% of patients who might have a good outcome without surgery, I’d hang in there. But, as I’ve said, there have been no signs that my condition is improving or even holding steady. I won’t waste years of my life hoping for some miracle to occur.

As I said, I certainly agree with the maxim to only use surgery as a last resort. I can assure you that I'm at the last resort point (which is different for everyone).

--tennisnut

********************

2002: Gradual onset lower back pain.
MRI-bulge/DD @ L5/S1. Discogram- Grade V annular tear, 50% loss of disc height.
2003: Multiple ESI fail, PT makes pain worse.
Meds: 120mg oxycontin, 3600 mg Neurontin
Surgeons say fusion or ADR my only hope.
Try IDET (11/03). No benefit.
Now scheduling artificial disc replacement (Prodisc).

T'nut--Thanks so much for this. It is about as clear an informative a statement about making choices that I've seen on this board, and thus will be useful to many.

All--re: the study that "after five years people with and without surgery look the same," I _think_ that has specifically to do with people with "classic" herniated lumbar disks who have traditional microdiscectomy surgery. As T'nut notes, the odds are different for discogenic problems. And they are also different for patients with central canal lumbar stenosis. So important to keep in mind all the different kinds of back problems, and different kinds of surgeries, that come into play.

Standingman

S'Man,

Leave it to the Virgos (my DOB: 9/9/65) to thoroughly analyze a situation before acting! Lordy be, all this persistent advice (not to mention diagnosis via telemedicine) and...I just can't remember stating a question or a point of confusion about my condition. Huh.

Your opinion (and diplomacy) is, as always, refreshing and appreciated. Thanks, you.

t'nut

p.s. I think the woman who started this thread stopped reading a long time ago.

I would like to thank everyone so much for all their kind words and advice. I am definately going to go for another opinion. :)

Tennisnut:

I concede. :bouncing:

there are reasons for surgery. you must be one of them. I wish you well and hope that it works out for you. I hope that you are in the percentage of people who are a success story.

:)

i just recieved my full MRI results:
"There is no fracture, spondylolesthesis, or osseous destructive change. The small avulsion ijury related to the anterior superior aspect of the L4 vertebra cannot be discretly visualized on MR imaging. The L1-2 through L5-S1 levels are visualized without disc herniation or canal stenosis. The exciting nerve roots are intact. The visualized articulating facets are normally demonstrarted at all levels. The region of the conus meddularis appears intact."

I know that the fact that I have no fracture or herniation is good. But do any of you think I should continue pole vaulting for another three years? Also, what exercises aren't good for DDD? - injured athlete

I hurt my back about 14 years ago........it was a serious horse accident (one of many). I never realized back then HOW serious it was.....went thru all the pain and bad symptoms and always 'thought' it was something torn or retorn when I'd do too much to I dealt with it. What I didn't know wasn't hurting me as much I guess !! Had alot of bad days.....but in my head I thought it was minor. I have been doin what I do 'all that time'.......no special meds for it or anything or exrays till this past two years. So now I am payin for all my injuries but I am still dealing with it as I was but now moderateing some of the things I do......or when or how much.....I have pain meds for the BAD days and again I KEEP doin what I always been doin. It's choronic pain now......had severe injury to my neck also....so I got it at BOTH ends. But I think if I had KNOWN it was this bad at the time of the accidents I think I would of been told to do nothing or less or had surgery or whatever....and handled things differently and I am glad I didn't give my lifestyle up ....did that make sense ? I know people diagnosed with DDD and they sit around and do nothing now.....there not happy and miserable but were told NOT do do anything much anymore so that is what they have done. Sum have had surgery and within a year or two or even a few months later were rite back where they were only doin less cuz of it. They have no life now cuz of bein TOLD to stop. BUT.....there "are alot of cases" and back problems that warrent NOT doing as much or being able to do much at all of course and drastic change in lifestyle. I'm talking about keeping within your means and pain level here....listen to your symptoms and pain. I have been hauling shale rock to do flower gardens in moderation (and oh my do I pay for it and some of that may have to be moderated soon I fear cuz it has become unbearble at times) .....I still work out daily at home.......I haven't slow'd down too much or give anything up (yet). We ride an big motorcycle too and take short trips with friends. So what I am saying is......keep doin what yer doin "if" you feel you can handle it and don't stop liveing !! I go for my first MRI this week......havein some more serious problems now but again......I am still doin what I do !!!!! I even have a few big vacations planned. (which is gonna hurt). Hope I dont' sound stupid here ? I have serious pain meds I do not abuse and try to manage my pain myself for the BAD days. I am 'SERIOULSY' hanging in there !!!!! So I've been active "with this" for 15 years......hope you can too. Good luck to you. People sure don't understand chronic back pain I am finding out......they hear ya take pain meds and freak thinkin your are really goin off the deep end to the MAX and are some sort of druggie !!!! Pain free wishes to you all.........Pam

Sorry guys my last post was so LONG winded.....geeze....I am jus gettin VERY nervous about all this and the MRI and all. Can't rally talk to many I know about it cuz they don't understand or have to go thru much pain stuff.....thanks again for all the advice I have gotten reading up on here. Pam

My symptoms are mainly an aching pain where the disc is. Slight numbing in my right leg, which goes away from time to time. When I get up in the morning my pain is the worst, but once i start moving around I'm a whole lot better. Another scenario where the pain is bad is the day after a meet, but two days rest and I'm fine again. The original injury was a bunch of muscle spasms in the lower back and I was left with a lump on the right side. The doctors said it was scar tissue. How do I get rid of those? I feel that the fact that my first doctor telling me to just quit is wrong. I'm going for a second opinion. My parents are the main providers for me with insurance and all, does anyone know if certain alternative medicines work? Like IMT? I had been going for physical therapy, and they said my hips were out of alignment. But the MRI definately showed DDD. The one disc is all black and is bit smaller that the others. How does pole vaulting affect the disc? Is it the running or the bending that bother it? Sorry for my bombardment of questions. Thanks to all for their support and answers. It helps so much. :) - injured athlete

That would be great! :) I live in New York on Long Island. Massapequa to be exact.

My symptoms are mainly an aching pain where the disc is. Slight numbing in my right leg, which goes away from time to time. When I get up in the morning my pain is the worst, but once i start moving around I'm a whole lot better. Another scenario where the pain is bad is the day after a meet, but two days rest and I'm fine again. The original injury was a bunch of muscle spasms in the lower back and I was left with a lump on the right side. The doctors said it was scar tissue. How do I get rid of those? I feel that the fact that my first doctor telling me to just quit is wrong. I'm going for a second opinion. My parents are the main providers for me with insurance and all, does anyone know if certain alternative medicines work? Like IMT? I had been going for physical therapy, and they said my hips were out of alignment. But the MRI definately showed DDD. The one disc is all black and is bit smaller that the others. How does pole vaulting affect the disc? Is it the running or the bending that bother it? Sorry for my bombardment of questions. Thanks to all for their support and answers. It helps so much. :) - injured athlete


DDD does not always mean pain. If you pelvis is out of alignment, ask about lax ligaments.

I would to for a second opinion.


For alternative therapies, if your ligmaments are lax, search out Prolotherapy.

Hi injured athelte,

i am so sympathetic to your plight, but your doctor may not be right....i too was a DI athlete and I found out I have a severely Disc degeneration at the L4 L5 level...next Tuesday I am having a total disc replacement with the Maverick Disc...it's still in clinical trial, and this will supposedly allow me to go back to playing golf again! It's faster less painful and less recovery time than the spinal fusion. I would suggest finding an orthopaedic surgeon who will look at you...check out Medtronic SOfamore's website (they made the disc)...this is paid for by the company, and so i hope to be mcuh better! Good luck to you! :)

Hi injured athelte,

i am so sympathetic to your plight, but your doctor may not be right....i too was a DI athlete and I found out I have a severely Disc degeneration at the L4 L5 level...next Tuesday I am having a total disc replacement with the Maverick Disc...it's still in clinical trial, and this will supposedly allow me to go back to playing golf again! It's faster less painful and less recovery time than the spinal fusion. I would suggest finding an orthopaedic surgeon who will look at you...check out Medtronic SOfamore's website (they made the disc)...this is paid for by the company, and so i hope to be mcuh better! Good luck to you! :)

i agree that my doctor isn't right. i also think that there is something else wrong with my back besides the dics degeneration. No one can figure it out though. I also see the athletic trainers everyday. Does anyone think a chiropractor would help? If so, then what would they possibly do? I will definately look into this type fo surgery you are talking about, but I hear that the success rate of surgeries is pretty slim. What is the recovery rate with this new type of surgery youre talking about? by the way, Good luck! :) Let me know how you do! - injured athlete

My symptoms are mainly an aching pain where the disc is. Slight numbing in my right leg, which goes away from time to time. When I get up in the morning my pain is the worst, but once i start moving around I'm a whole lot better. Another scenario where the pain is bad is the day after a meet, but two days rest and I'm fine again. The original injury was a bunch of muscle spasms in the lower back and I was left with a lump on the right side. The doctors said it was scar tissue. How do I get rid of those? I feel that the fact that my first doctor telling me to just quit is wrong. I'm going for a second opinion. My parents are the main providers for me with insurance and all, does anyone know if certain alternative medicines work? Like IMT? I had been going for physical therapy, and they said my hips were out of alignment. But the MRI definately showed DDD. The one disc is all black and is bit smaller that the others. How does pole vaulting affect the disc? Is it the running or the bending that bother it? Sorry for my bombardment of questions. Thanks to all for their support and answers. It helps so much. :) - injured athlete

Is the pain on the right side? How did you get the scar tissue? Scar tissue is hard to get rid of. If you have it taken out you can get more scar tissue.


As for surgery, that is just going to offer you more problems. So many people want to jump to surgery out of desperation because of the pain when they cannot even imagine the level of pain that can happen after the surgery. Surgery is not not everyone. Why replace a DDD if it is not what is really causing the pain? See the publication The Burton Report and read about *failed back surgery*, the facts that not all doctor will share with you.

An honest doctor will try to sway you away from surgery.

Is the pain on the right side? How did you get the scar tissue? Scar tissue is hard to get rid of. If you have it taken out you can get more scar tissue.


As for surgery, that is just going to offer you more problems. So many people want to jump to surgery out of desperation because of the pain when they cannot even imagine the level of pain that can happen after the surgery. Surgery is not not everyone. Why replace a DDD if it is not what is really causing the pain? See the publication The Burton Report and read about *failed back surgery*, the facts that not all doctor will share with you.

An honest doctor will try to sway you away from surgery.


The pain is on both sides, but more on the right. They said I got the scar tissue from pulling pole vaulting mats in the wrong way. My doctor didn't mention surgery, he didn'tmention anything really. He just came in the room, told me I had DDD, and then to quit pole vaulting and running. And that was it.

Sounds like your doctor is not the best for what you want. I know it is nice to hear what you want to hear but it sounds like more doctor's opinion is needed for you.

I to played sports in college (baseball). But didn't have any problems during that time in my life. Now I am 33 and looking back on how I executed some of the body positions within playing sports, I can see how it aided to my DDD. But I also know that when I turned 30, I slowed down my activities of working out on a normal basis (i.e. exercise, weight training, stretching, etc). Then I felt my body started to get worse with starting to get back problems, etc. Now with the PT friendly exercises, I have started to get my body back in shape again but it took me switching doctors to get a better PT program for me. Unfortunately, my pain and discomfort is still there and still have a herniated and 60% DDD of my L5/S1, that I am still looking for that golden egg decision that will eliminate my pain (knowing that it may not exist).

-- Good luck
Doug