:yawn: it has been 2 months i have been off methadone thanks to all of the messages ive read on health boards it was really encouraging to know i wasnt the only one in this situation the reason im writing is because ive been off methadone 3o mgs for chronic back pain and decided it was consuming me 2 months later i still have severe anxiety depression and just have no self worth or pleasure in anything and my patience is wearing pretty F-ing thin can some one tell me if this is normal ifeel like im in some one elses body

I just quit using the duragesic patch. I have been on opiates for 5 years. I am having increased anxiety attachs also. My dr put me on a low dose of xanax for the anxiety and upped my antidepressent to also help. Good luck in staying of the methadone.

the only time it really gave me euphoria was when i didnt have any for a day or so i didnt really take it to get high but just to make the withdrawals go away iwas so scared to come off of it because the withdrawal the worst part for me was the prickly skin from the anxiety and no energy and i also now have panic attacks my therapist put me on klonopin due to having panic and these pain in the a.. prickling feelings in my face lips arms and shoulders for 2 months i was ready to die thanx for responding

Paitence,

After two months and with a dose of 30 mgs you should not be feeling any residual effects of the meth. I think your anxiety is unrelated. The meth is a good mask for these things. Meth is a long acting drug. It seems to drag you down forever after you quit. But at two months, the physical withdrawal symptoms are gone. We sometimes link all of our woes to our encounters with opiates. I've kicked much higher doses several times. Most of my methadone detoxes were courtesy of the state. No weaning, no xanax, if you get my picture. Takes 30 days to really start to get your full energy back. My belief is you got the physical part licked!

TMB

thanks for the info i know the phsycal part is over but cant understand thes lasting prickly feeling in my skin and no self worth i am on effexor and switching to lexapro also just started klonopin which im kind of nervous about its just amazing how many other things i have to take know just to be of the wonder drug my life has been more of a mess off it than on it thanx tmb it helps

thank you for your response it makes it easier knowing its a normal thing to feel this way i thought i was crazy and it was all in what mind i have left thanx meredith

I can say that I'm sure the people that wrote to you read your replys. They probably just thought that you had all of the info you needed from your original question. I couldn't respond to your other post so I replied here. I haven't been through this but I have heard that meth withdrawal can last months and months. But I don't know AND 30 mgs doesn't seem like much to me...
Just FYI - if you ever write a post and need more feedback on it, then start a new thread so everyone will see it again. Take care and what exactly do you mean from 'prickly skin'?

Take care,

Banker

banker the prickly skin is from anxiety it just feels like the feeling when your in fight mode and i have had it for 2 months and its pretty annoying dealing with it day after day thanks for your reply it helps later kelleigh

Hi no patience,
How are you doing now? I am wondering because I am considering weaning off of methadone that I take for my chronic back pain. I tried a quick switch to more of a different opiate last week (doctors idea) and had a bad withdrawal. How is your pain now and what are you doing for it?

thanks,
farmboy7

hey whats up it is so hard to switch from methadone to another opiate because the withdrawals from the meth still shine through one thing that did help me a little was my doc weaned me off with a fentynal patch right now im taking celebrex but not working ive tried everything the sad thing is ill probably end up back on it because my pain sucks and its the only thing that helps you to function w/out pain i dont mean to discourage you about weaning off but if you do my heart goes out to you its tough thanx kelleigh and good luck if your pain is that bad i suggest staying on it i think i made a mistake

Off opiates and on Klonopin... You have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Sorry people, but I cannot believe the ignorance of these doctors. Want to really know about hell? Try kicking that stuff if you get addicted. Ask Stevie Knicks and many others.

Off opiates and on Klonopin... You have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Sorry people, but I cannot believe the ignorance of these doctors. Want to really know about hell? Try kicking that stuff if you get addicted. Ask Stevie Knicks and many others.
thats so funny you wrote this i was just gonna post and ask if any one knew any thing about klonopin why do people get addicted because when i take it it doesnt do any thing but calm me down it doesnt give me any kind of euphoria howard right back and let me know some more details cause ive been really scared about these especially being in the dark about them thanx let me know pleeaase kelleigh

I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.

I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.
thanks for the info very helpful at least now idont feel like an idiot theyve just helped me tremendously i couldnt even go anywhere before taking these but then again i dont want to go through all this pyshological crap again thanks so much kelleigh

Your welcome and good luck to you :)

No patience,

Terminology has evolved and I actually agree with the distinction addiction/dependency that Jennita makes. True "addicts" are out to get a buzz or get wasted and benzos are often used by them to enhance alcohol highs or to come down from opiate and cocaine binges. But these rarely get "addicted" to "dependant" on or say "hooked" on benzos. Daily theraputic users often do. Yet some of these may increase doses in order to escape from life which may fall under "addiction." Frankly though, I am much more concerned with encouraging you to flush those pills than semantics. Why take a chance on the potentially worst and most long term withdrawal syndrome of all? Looking up the Ashton Manual on the net was a good suggestion...

Jennita,

Thanks for your concern. Am half way to the finish line. Got an excellent doc. I am "the same ole me," however. I read stories of people that spent months not answering the door or telephone. Well, in my case, there would be no telephone or door to answer... So I instead choose to listen to Ashton, who says a slow taper enables one "to go on with their normal lives." So far, so good. As to recovery time for the brain, makes perfect sense. Particulars, longevity in my individual case, will have to wait and see. No point in worrying about tomorrow. Can only work to screw up today.

No patience,

Terminology has evolved and I actually agree with the distinction addiction/dependency that Jennita makes. True "addicts" are out to get a buzz or get wasted and benzos are often used by them to enhance alcohol highs or to come down from opiate and cocaine binges. But these rarely get "addicted" to "dependant" on or say "hooked" on benzos. Daily theraputic users often do. Yet some of these may increase doses in order to escape from life which may fall under "addiction." Frankly though, I am much more concerned with encouraging you to flush those pills than semantics. Why take a chance on the potentially worst and most long term withdrawal syndrome of all? Looking up the Ashton Manual on the net was a good suggestion...

Jennita,

Thanks for your concern. Am half way to the finish line. Got an excellent doc. I am "the same ole me," however. I read stories of people that spent months not answering the door or telephone. Well, in my case, there would be no telephone or door to answer... So I instead choose to listen to Ashton, who says a slow taper enables one "to go on with their normal lives." So far, so good. As to recovery time for the brain, makes perfect sense. Particulars, longevity in my individual case, will have to wait and see. No point in worrying about tomorrow. Can only work to screw up today.
howard my therapist said i would only be on these for 4 to5 weeks i take them to get rid of the rage and constant panic attacks i was having also for the 2 1/2 months i was off methadone i felt a constant prickly pins and needles feeling in my arms face and back of neck it was like the feeling that comes over your body when you are in a horrifying situation and the klonopin took that away i couldnt stand it anymore im not a violent person but let me tell it was coming to it this methadone thing really messed me up physical addiction to me is a crock i dont care if its heroin or what ever other drug they say physical addiction comes with no phychological addiction well the experts can talk to me and if the klonopin is gonna help me at least feel like a human being instead of pin cushin and help me beable to go out and function in society im gonna continue im sorry if i sound like a bi--- but im just so sick of this long drawn out f-ing process i guess thats why im no patience thanks so much i really appreciate your input love and peace kelleigh

Jennita~ you are the first person on here to really put into words what a BENZO can do. I am living proof of what a HORROR you will go thru if you abuse and stop. As I stated in another thread, it took me well over a year to regain control over my body. I had to RELEARN how to write my name. thats just the beginning of the hell I went thru. I have NO idea why these docs write them so freely. You could never get me to take another one. I would tell anybody to just bo-up and bear it before you take a benzo for the wd's....but anyway, I've never really talked to anybody that went thru what I did and you're the closest that I've seen describe it. ~SS

Jennita~ you are the first person on here to really put into words what a BENZO can do. I am living proof of what a HORROR you will go thru if you abuse and stop. As I stated in another thread, it took me well over a year to regain control over my body. I had to RELEARN how to write my name. thats just the beginning of the hell I went thru. I have NO idea why these docs write them so freely. You could never get me to take another one. I would tell anybody to just bo-up and bear it before you take a benzo for the wd's....but anyway, I've never really talked to anybody that went thru what I did and you're the closest that I've seen describe it. ~SS
ss jennita definitly did give some awesome information i am horrifyed to hear the story of what you went through i thought my detox from methadone was bad im so glad to hear that part of your hell is over im not sure if your fully recovered but if your not i hope you will be soon love and peace kelleigh

Paitence,

After two months and with a dose of 30 mgs you should not be feeling any residual effects of the meth. I think your anxiety is unrelated. The meth is a good mask for these things. Meth is a long acting drug. It seems to drag you down forever after you quit. But at two months, the physical withdrawal symptoms are gone. We sometimes link all of our woes to our encounters with opiates. I've kicked much higher doses several times. Most of my methadone detoxes were courtesy of the state. No weaning, no xanax, if you get my picture. Takes 30 days to really start to get your full energy back. My belief is you got the physical part licked!

TMB

No patience. I empathize, promise. :) Above is what a prior poster told you. You have been off two months, and from what I have read, heard, and seen, your physical withdrawal from opiates should be over. Did you have panic attacks before you became addicted to opiates? The issues that caused one to want drugs will usually be waiting for the user once they are off them, IMO.

Less than a month of Klonopin use probably would not produce any physical dependance, but what is the plan after that? If you still have intense anxiety I assure you that you can find someone to give you more Klonopin or Xanax. Was never a problem for me. Then you are heading down the road... For those that must have meds to function because of these issues SSRIs more likely to be a better short term solution because there is much less propensity to build tolerance, and the withdrawal syndromes, when they occur, are known to be shorter and less severe.

I know what it is like to need to function, as unlike many in cyberspace, I do not have the personal resources stay at home 6 month or a year then go job hunting again. Unless you want to call an automobile or a refrigerator box a home. I had some panic attacks when trying to come off Xanax or Klonopin because the withdrawals made me feel like I was having a heart attack. Well, I have had extensive tests done and I am healthy as a horse, aside from benzo dependency. So if I feel a bit of anxiety coming on, which everyone has to some degree, I do not "freak out" or believe the lie, at least have not in many months. There are non-drug methods for coping with these problems. CBT therapy being one.

Simply,

I'm very sorry for what you went through...I hear you...after the hell I went through, I would never take one again either! I'm glad you got away from those horrible pills, some people never escape. I guess we are both very fortunate!

Howard,

I'm so happy you are pushing on...I remember your old thread and you were really suffering, sometimes I did think you were not going to follow through. I know withdrawal was one of the worst experiences of my life, so I don't blame people who give up, only that it's scary to think what will become of them one day.

I developed such a high tolerance to my prescribed 2mgs. Ativan ,I could take that dose at night and be wide/bright awake the entire night and this could happen sometimes 4 nights in a row! It had absolutely no effect. So I looked down the road a bit one day and realized where I would end up. Meanwhile , my doctor wasn't concerned about addiction (he didn't mention dependancy) and I suppose he thought I was in such a mental state that I could literally force myself to not sleep for all those days despite the fact that 2 mgs. Ativan at one time is plenty to knock most people cold. I guess he never heard of tolerance withdrawals. But neither had I then, or I would have never taken those pills to start with.

No Patience,

All of us here can sympathize with you, having been through it too. If you are going to take the Klonopin anyway, well, at least stick to the time frame your doc suggested and no more, then insist he help you do a very, very slow taper... and not necessarily what is deemed the standard "safe" taper, sometimes that is even too fast! The Ashton Manual can help. And please do not let him insist you need these drugs for life...you do not, I can assure you. Myself and tons of other people I've read about that were told that found, in the end, it was not true.

I hope it goes smooth for you...you might be one of the lucky ones and not have a severe withdrawal...hopefully so. Lots of luck to you.

Jennita,

Yea, I suffered pretty bad for 3 months trying to get off, was using the wrong tapering medium (Klonopin) and had my dose cut in half by the doc from the get go. C/T is not easy. Yet have only used 5 sick days this year. Less than average. lol I had no support other than the net and most of what I read there were all but promises of becoming cripled and homebound. Ashton however says that symptoms typically disappear within 3 months of coming off, and that slow tapering typically enables one to keep their normal life. I stand on this, work on my spiritual life, and have e-mails and telephone going with people on the same page as me. I am not in the internet support forums. Got a good doc this time. I am not worried. What good would it do? I turn a deal ear to anyone that tries to drag me down. I do like this board though. Gives me some opportunities to encourage and warn, and learn also.

Sounds like you have it all together. I didn't have the benefit of the Ashton stuff when I tapered too quickly off Ativan, so I did get the protracted stuff peolple mention. But I noticed most of the severe anxiety stuff did go after only a few months. The insomnia hung on for years, but the severity of it diminished over time. The first year was the worst. I never had some of the other stuff like depersonization/derealization....alot of people it seemed were on antidepressants during withdrawals in the support groups so maybe that was a factor?

See, when I investigated, I didn't just investigate benzos...I went for all the psychoactive drugs, so when I quit Ativan, no other drugs were even a consideration for me. So although I did suffer alot during my withdrawal and recovery, I never once felt out of touch with the world or myself, or felt crippled in any way. I never once considered any other drugs to get me through....I was finally educated about those pills...fool me once, because I don't allow it twice!

I used to be quite an athletic sort, so I even went to the gym several times a week during my worst withdrawals....not much of a workout achieved but I was determined to get back to my old self....all it would take is a few hours sleep for me to get up and go there, sure, I was tired but I knew it was good for me.

Sounds like you have the same determination. When you do hit a bump in the road, there's no shame in feeling down. It's not an easy thing, getting off these benzos.

Jennita,

It all seems to be in the long half life of the Valium, that and the gradual reduction. The support forums gave me that, as did the founder of one of them give us all the Ashton Manual. So a debt of gratitude is owed, and I have expressed it. Just too much for me reading in them at this time. I did not really want to taper before. It was not anxiety that did me in C/T, it was back, head, and neck pressure. Would probably have toughed it out if I had it to do over but hindsight is 20/20.

Your situation sounds reasonable. I fully expect to feel the after effects of these drugs for some time once I come off. I guess is sort of like rebooting your computer. But I also expect to function. Insomnia: I have been plagued by that for 10 years, way before benzos. I have been over-worked, first with working on advanced degrees and now with two jobs, one that requires getting up at the crack of dawn and has steady confrontations. Doc says to quit afternoon naps even though I come home exhausted. This may require caffeine. lol Also, there are times, especially now that the Valium is less sedative, that I have to knock myself out with antihistamine. It is that or work all day with no sleep. Is always a last resort. I`d skip it if I did not have to get up and work. What has been your experience, if any, with sleep aids during withdrawals? I do not see my insomnia so much as a withdrawal symptom, just things back to normal. I have a several friends at work that also have sleep problems. Know one guy that has been functioning on about 3 hours sleep a night for many years. He takes not meds except Beta blockers which he needs.

Simply,

I'm very sorry for what you went through...I hear you...after the hell I went through, I would never take one again either! I'm glad you got away from those horrible pills, some people never escape. I guess we are both very fortunate!

Howard,

I'm so happy you are pushing on...I remember your old thread and you were really suffering, sometimes I did think you were not going to follow through. I know withdrawal was one of the worst experiences of my life, so I don't blame people who give up, only that it's scary to think what will become of them one day.

I developed such a high tolerance to my prescribed 2mgs. Ativan ,I could take that dose at night and be wide/bright awake the entire night and this could happen sometimes 4 nights in a row! It had absolutely no effect. So I looked down the road a bit one day and realized where I would end up. Meanwhile , my doctor wasn't concerned about addiction (he didn't mention dependancy) and I suppose he thought I was in such a mental state that I could literally force myself to not sleep for all those days despite the fact that 2 mgs. Ativan at one time is plenty to knock most people cold. I guess he never heard of tolerance withdrawals. But neither had I then, or I would have never taken those pills to start with.

No Patience,

All of us here can sympathize with you, having been through it too. If you are going to take the Klonopin anyway, well, at least stick to the time frame your doc suggested and no more, then insist he help you do a very, very slow taper... and not necessarily what is deemed the standard "safe" taper, sometimes that is even too fast! The Ashton Manual can help. And please do not let him insist you need these drugs for life...you do not, I can assure you. Myself and tons of other people I've read about that were told that found, in the end, it was not true.

I hope it goes smooth for you...you might be one of the lucky ones and not have a severe withdrawal...hopefully so. Lots of luck to you.
jennita thanks for your support

Your welcome, no patience. Sometimes we have to educate ourselves on some of these issues because doctors are usually too busy to look into details of things like withdrawal syndromes. Best wishes to you! :)

Howard,

Well, it sounds like the insomnia of your past was from overwork and bad sleep schedule. Napping does seem to exasperate that sort of thing. I wouldn't know really; the only time of my life I had insomnia at all was when I was exposed to prescription drugs, and of course the withdrawal syndrome. Before that, I slept like a teenager practically...a good 7-8 hours everynight...I don't know if it was genetics, or the fact I exercised alot, or that milk was my choice with a steak dinner instead of wine. I was not a health nut(I like my chocolate and sodas) but I did have an interest in healthy lifestlyle. I especially like weight training.

As far as sleep aids during withdrawals, I found it was hit-and-miss. Some nights, one thing would work, but not always.

I did get good results from double-bagging chamomile tea into just a half cup water a little before bedtime. Milk sometimes worked too; either warm or cold. I seemed to get results from calcium supplements around an hour or a half hour before bed. When my sleep started to improve, Benedryl did help me on nights it looked like I wouldn't drift off at all.

And I remember another thing that helped me....believe it or not, plain tylenol. Someone in the support group mentioned that a drop in body temp encourages sleep. Again, this was not a sure-everynight thing, but it was wonderful when it actually worked, and it did quite a few times. Benzos /withdrawals seem to mess with body temp as well.

I've heard some people swear by Valerian Root but I didn't try it; I guess the fact it was toted as a weaker version of Valium turned me off of it. I thought it might be too simular. But really, I'm sure it is safe enough. Check with your doctor anyway. Melantonin is another one I was a bit afraid of, but maybe you could ask about that one too.

I think there are alot of things you could try out there; all are definately safer than prescription drugs! Let me know how it goes....

Jennita,

Today is day one of cutting the naps out. Has been a fight but looks like I have made it and will be to bed soon. This might be the ticket. Thanks.

Your welcome, no patience. Sometimes we have to educate ourselves on some of these issues because doctors are usually too busy to look into details of things like withdrawal syndromes. Best wishes to you! :)

Howard,

Well, it sounds like the insomnia of your past was from overwork and bad sleep schedule. Napping does seem to exasperate that sort of thing. I wouldn't know really; the only time of my life I had insomnia at all was when I was exposed to prescription drugs, and of course the withdrawal syndrome. Before that, I slept like a teenager practically...a good 7-8 hours everynight...I don't know if it was genetics, or the fact I exercised alot, or that milk was my choice with a steak dinner instead of wine. I was not a health nut(I like my chocolate and sodas) but I did have an interest in healthy lifestlyle. I especially like weight training.

As far as sleep aids during withdrawals, I found it was hit-and-miss. Some nights, one thing would work, but not always.

I did get good results from double-bagging chamomile tea into just a half cup water a little before bedtime. Milk sometimes worked too; either warm or cold. I seemed to get results from calcium supplements around an hour or a half hour before bed. When my sleep started to improve, Benedryl did help me on nights it looked like I wouldn't drift off at all.

And I remember another thing that helped me....believe it or not, plain tylenol. Someone in the support group mentioned that a drop in body temp encourages sleep. Again, this was not a sure-everynight thing, but it was wonderful when it actually worked, and it did quite a few times. Benzos /withdrawals seem to mess with body temp as well.

I've heard some people swear by Valerian Root but I didn't try it; I guess the fact it was toted as a weaker version of Valium turned me off of it. I thought it might be too simular. But really, I'm sure it is safe enough. Check with your doctor anyway. Melantonin is another one I was a bit afraid of, but maybe you could ask about that one too.

I think there are alot of things you could try out there; all are definately safer than prescription drugs! Let me know how it goes....
jennita youre definitly right my primary doc and my pain doc both said after 2wks from withdrawaling from methadone i'd be fine look at me almost 3 months later still a basket case and feeling like i'm living someone elses life if they are gonna hand out all these scripts like candy they need to tell you the consequences i knew nothing about methadone when i started taking it if i was more informed of the after effects insted of a little pharmacy paper this could be habit forming why doesnt it say if you ever have to stop taking this medication prepare to feel like your in hell for months thanks had to vent just so angry kelleigh

farmboy 7 you posted me a few days ago about weaning off methadone just wondered how it was going and if you made your decision kelleigh

Ah, yes, anger is an appropriate response. I was angry for a long time...actually, I still get angry now and then about the whole ordeal I went through. Well, what can you do, except warn others. They are prescribing psychiatric drugs for everything but sneezing these days (thank goodness for Claritin or maybe that wouldn't be true) and it's sickening.

But at least some of the stuff is hitting the fan...aka the latest bad press about antidepressants and most importantly, the misleading information from clinical trials for those drugs....pharma co's have been filing away the clinical trials that showed very poor results, and also have not accurately presented the positive ones. A recent article on Msnbc shows that the drug co's misrepresented how effective the AD's are at all. Wow, what a surprise, huh...people like Dr. Ann Tracy has been saying this for years. Thank goodness, because they are giving more and more children drugs. I guess they weren't making enough millions on adults. Well, now they are being investigated....

Sorry for the rant, but I think you are yet another victim of this system. Well, I do hope you can eventually slow taper off your klonopin and feel better. Be patient; it takes time, a long time sometimes but in the end you will be ok again!

Howard, did you sleep well last night? :wave:

<<Howard, did you sleep well last night?>>

Was out like a light at 9:45, would have been Valium or not, but had to take my dose. Up at 4 then slept another hour. Am exhausted now, post-work. That has been the case for many years, well before benzos. I will stay awake another 5 hours come hell or high water. The napping habit will not be easy to break but it will be. Doc told me to stop it. The fact that benzos produce inferior sleep aggravates the situation. But benzos will be beat as well, slowly but surely... Thanks for asking :-)

<<Howard, did you sleep well last night?>>

Was out like a light at 9:45, would have been Valium or not, but had to take my dose. Up at 4 then slept another hour. Am exhausted now, post-work. That has been the case for many years, well before benzos. I will stay awake another 5 hours come hell or high water. The napping habit will not be easy to break but it will be. Doc told me to stop it. The fact that benzos produce inferior sleep aggravates the situation. But benzos will be beat as well, slowly but surely... Thanks for asking :-)
howard 678 ive read some of your posts if you dont mind my asking whats your situation why are you having sleep problems sorry if i seem nosey but just concerened kelleigh

Kayleigh,

You ask why I have sleep problems? Would be hard to be nosy. We are about helping one another and sharing experiences.

1. I am a very hard working professional.

2. I have a demanding boss.

3. I am tapering off of Valium, and this drug is now useless as a sleep aid. It is a highly sedative drug but only for about a month if taken daily, unless you start upping dosings but there is no way in the world I will do this.

However, I do sleep, but not enough, and not well enough.

Jennita,

We have cooresponded quite a bit. You strike me as being pretty anti-prescription med, but open minded. I have the same sentiments but am also shy of herbal remedies as they are unregulated and problems associated with some of these are reported also. Anyway, I am sitting on a bottle of Trazadone, short half life sedative non-SSRI AD, that on further research, is kin to the Serzone you were on. I have read a variety of sources and the reviews are mixed. Many report it is a great sleep aid for them, even long term, with no serious side effects. What do you think are the risks of giving a bedtime dose a few tries? I am not finding any tales of horror like with benzos and SSRIs. Though there is a male specific side effect that has occured in a small number of cases that does sound troubling...

Howard,

Yes, I have always tried to be open-minded but after what happened to me, I admit I am very anti-drug....or more specifically, anti-psychiatric drugs. I do understand there comes a time in extreme circumstance that maybe these drugs are helpful, but I'm talking extremely violent, disturbed, hallucienating or psychotic individuals....not the average, depressed or anxious person who might better be served with psychotherapy, nutrition, lifestyle change, cognitive behavior therapy, etc.

I believe they have gone too far with prescribing psychoactive substances. Besides the lack of biological proof of need for these meds, also, the negative effects/diseases on the body from long-term use....you know, diabetes, heart/blood pressure problems, memory problems, eye problems, liver and kidney problems, parkinson's like disorders, tardive dyskinesia, etc. all linked to such drugs like antidepressants, benzos and neuroleptics.

How far have they gone? I'll tell you. I just saw on T.V. that the FDA has approved a narcolepsy drug for, guess what.....shift work. Yes, shift work, to help keep people awake easier. Now, is shift work a disease/disorder in need of "medication" I ask you? When did the medical community step away from their original purpose of curing medical disease and into unnessarily prescribing of toxic substances?

If you ask me, they've have left the world of medicine and entered the world of drug pushing.

Next on the list is the development of extascy, the street drug, for use in depressed patients. How appropriate; the two worlds have finally openly joined as one!

Enough of my rant.....I am glad you slept, howard, even if it wasn't great sleep...at least it's something. I know what you mean about the poor quality sleep of benzos. I slept so well last night; awoke without the anxiety rebound of those pills. You will get there, someday, too.

I wish I could give you an answer about the Trazadone. I have also heard the mixed reviews on it. It works for awhile, then it can stop working. Or some people say it didn't work at all. Others say it worked great, at least at the time they wrote about it.

I wouldn't consider you weak to try it with your pressures/work. Sleep is so important. The only worry would be any parodoxial reaction or if it didn't work. It's up to you, I'm not sure if it's hard to get off of. Maybe you could wait a bit longer and see if your sleep improves. If not, perhaps a short run with it might help you get through a tough time....

I am with you. The psychiatrist used to place the lion`s share or all of their efforts on counseling, helping patients work through their problems. Now it is depensing meds, and unquestionably this is way over done. I once had a nurse practioner of all things prescribe me Paxil to try and pulll me off Xanax. They can do that, is not a controlled substance. The pills cost me $79 even with my co-pay. They did zilch after 10 days, plus I do not believe I have a chemical imbalance so I tossed them. $ down the drain... Plus, being depressed or anxious was for centuries an accepted part of life, and often considered a good thing as it encouraged spirituality. Bad health, early death by today`s standards, that was the norm...

On the other hand, many of the syndromes you described have been linked to substances that have been around for milleniums, incuding alcohol, caffeine, and opiates. And anxiety, trauma, or paranoia all by themselves can cause many of these syndromes, irrespective of drugs. This is not to say that benzos do not have a tough withdrawal syndrome. Can`t speak about the SSRIs from experience.

And it might be argued, that certain psychoactive drugs allow some that, 100 years ago would have been institutionalized, to live pretty normal lives. We have had the so called "lunatics" around since the dawn of history, though of course kinder terminology is now used. Let me confess that I do not know a whole lot about any of this. Your research is surely more extensive. But I do know that there are a few crusaders on the net that seem to have an agenda and perhaps are setting themselves up to be highly paid "expert witnesses" in future civil trials or may have other motives. With my training, this is a red flag for perhaps a lack of objectivity. And such individuals seem to be the loudest voices on the net. Ideally, I would love to watch an SSRI or benzo suit hammered out, both sides, on Court TV. This I think would provide me with the best medium for an assessment.

I thought you may take a milder view on the Trazadone. It will be a last resort. Thanks for the input on that. :)

Kayleigh,

You ask why I have sleep problems? Would be hard to be nosy. We are about helping one another and sharing experiences.

1. I am a very hard working professional.

2. I have a demanding boss.

3. I am tapering off of Valium, and this drug is now useless as a sleep aid. It is a highly sedative drug but only for about a month if taken daily, unless you start upping dosings but there is no way in the world I will do this.

However, I do sleep, but not enough, and not well enough.
howard i take trazadone for sleep also you should look in to it before i started taking it i woke up every hour i even took it during methadone w/ds and slept the whole night never had insomnia during w/ds because of it jennitas right there really no side effects from it and no w/d symptoms like from effexor and paxil this stuff is great thanks for replying hope this helps kelleigh

Howard,

Yes, you are right, perhaps the drugs save many "lunatics" as they used to be called, and keep some out of the asylum. That is worse case scenario, however, and that's what I was talking about. Those were the only appropriate drug candidates in the past but now you can't even be upset over a job or your cat dying without the big push for Paxil.

I haven't read as much about those things, just like you howard, but I have read a few things about some research about B-vitamins are curing some schizophrenics. There is also the old research on fish oil and depression. Margot Kidder, the actress, has publically said that a regiment of amino acid therapy from her doctor has literally cured her of the manic-depression she suffered from for many years. So, even those worse-case scenarios I think should be looked into more, don't you?

However, I'm sure drugs are an easier, more profitable way to deal with those cases for the psychiatric/drug communities, so I'm not holding my breath on this one. I guess for now, the drugs are the only way for those extreme cases. But maybe the future holds better things for those poor people other than health compromising drugs; we will have to wait and see.

I don't see a red flag for professionals willing to testify against drugs, I mean, aren't other professionals who are pro-drug more than willing to testify in support of them? I can't say for sure, but some doors swing in both directions, ya know?

I've seen books written by pro-drug doctors as well as the anti-drug ones, so....

Well, the point is, the majority of people that are on these drugs probably should not be, and it is becoming a mental/physical health hazard.

They say mental illness is on the rise, but by what definition....someone like you, howard? I'm sure if your old doctor had his way, by now you would be classed as a mental disorder patient on medication, right?

Now, you and I both know that ain't so.... :nono:

This may not answer your questions directly but I just felt like posting it. Today`s technologically driven, highly materialistic world is often very stressful, even more so than the monotony of the industrial age or the physically challenging agrarian life.

Doctor please, some more of these
Outside the door, she took four more
What a drag it is getting old

Men just aren’t the same today
I hear ev’ry mother say
They just don’t appreciate that you get tired
They’re so hard to satisfy, you can tranquilize your mind
So go running for the shelter of a mother’s little helper
And four help you through the night, help to minimize your plight

Doctor please, some more of these
Outside the door, she took four more
What a drag it is getting old

Life’s just much too hard today,
I hear ev’ry mother say
The pusuit of happiness just seems a bore
And if you take more of those, you will get an overdose
No more running for the shelter of a mother’s little helper
They just helped you on your way, through your busy dying day

Rolling Stones


Yes, I am all for alternatives. Mine is going to be drug freedom, slowly, surely, as safely as possible. I think the best thing we can do is educate the medical community. I give my doctors, who were GPs, the benefit of the doubt. I think they were ignorant. I hold no resentment. And I would like to see a fair fight in court over some of these drugs, with many millions at stake, only 7 of 12 jurors to convince. My flu last week. Benzos? No. Have had mild nausea today. Benzos? Probably not. Had to rush my breakfast this a.m. Boss hates tardiness. Day was particularly challenging. Neck is a tad stiff. Benzos? No. Lousy computer chair, spent a lot of time in it last night. And I`m not getting any younger. But, many would have said it was all benzos and all but promised me much more. That is why I am out of the support forums.

Ah hah, that Mick and the gang knew the score, way before most of us!! But I think most people thought only the abusers had problems with the drugs, but we've learned differently, right howard?

Well, benzo withdrawal did not make you get a cold; however, when one is in withdrawal/recovery, the immune system isn't up to par and you can get sick alot easier....also, aches, pains, etc. are more likely too. It's just because benzos do effect the muscles. Valium has been used as a muscle relaxant.

In fact, when I used to be in the support group, there was a bodybuilder who hurt his back and his doctor gave him Valium for the spasms. He only took it for a few months intil the back healed, and not a very high dose. You know what, he went through the typical withdrawal symptoms for a year...anxiety, insomnia,tinnitus, etc? The man had absoulutely no history of such things...he just hurt his back. Goes to show, the stuff has potential to mess anyone up!

Anyway, I got sick with colds/bronchitis/infections alot too in the beginning, but now I think it's been about 2 years since I have been in a doctor's office. My new doctor must wonder where I went off to! :D

Well, I'm sorry you have to go through this under such stress with your job and all. Do you do anything to de-stress like mild exercise? I know it's hard to exercise amid withdrawals and work, but it doesn't have to be much, maybe only a few minutes of jumping-jacks, walking or bike. A few sets with light weights.

I exercised even on almost no sleep; of course, I couldn't do much but I did what I could. It was very hard for me, I remember one day during only a few minutes of aerobics at home, I actually started crying while I was doing it because I was so tired out! Tears were pooring down my face from nothing but shear exhaustion (I only did a few minutes) I'm glad I was at home instead of in an aerobics class...goodness what would that have looked like?

Oh well, now I can exercise again quite well. Anyway, it might be good for you...your'e not training for the Olympics, so any amount/type exercise will do the trick! I know from experience exercise will not take away withdrawals, but you might feel a bit better and keep your blood pressure down, since withdrawals can raise it in some people. Also, you may feel less stressed. Of course, maybe your boss sounds like he needs to de-stress too :bouncing:

I am with you. The psychiatrist used to place the lion`s share or all of their efforts on counseling, helping patients work through their problems. Now it is depensing meds, and unquestionably this is way over done. I once had a nurse practioner of all things prescribe me Paxil to try and pulll me off Xanax. They can do that, is not a controlled substance. The pills cost me $79 even with my co-pay. They did zilch after 10 days, plus I do not believe I have a chemical imbalance so I tossed them. $ down the drain... Plus, being depressed or anxious was for centuries an accepted part of life, and often considered a good thing as it encouraged spirituality. Bad health, early death by today`s standards, that was the norm...

On the other hand, many of the syndromes you described have been linked to substances that have been around for milleniums, incuding alcohol, caffeine, and opiates. And anxiety, trauma, or paranoia all by themselves can cause many of these syndromes, irrespective of drugs. This is not to say that benzos do not have a tough withdrawal syndrome. Can`t speak about the SSRIs from experience.

And it might be argued, that certain psychoactive drugs allow some that, 100 years ago would have been institutionalized, to live pretty normal lives. We have had the so called "lunatics" around since the dawn of history, though of course kinder terminology is now used. Let me confess that I do not know a whole lot about any of this. Your research is surely more extensive. But I do know that there are a few crusaders on the net that seem to have an agenda and perhaps are setting themselves up to be highly paid "expert witnesses" in future civil trials or may have other motives. With my training, this is a red flag for perhaps a lack of objectivity. And such individuals seem to be the loudest voices on the net. Ideally, I would love to watch an SSRI or benzo suit hammered out, both sides, on Court TV. This I think would provide me with the best medium for an assessment.

I thought you may take a milder view on the Trazadone. It will be a last resort. Thanks for the input on that. :)
HOWARD YOU HAVE AMAZING WILLPOWER AND I JUST WANTED TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON THAT IVE READ ALOT OF YOUR POSTS AND WANT TO GIVE SOME SOME MORE DESERVED CREDIT SORRY IF IT SEEMS A BIT KORNY BUT YOU REALLY SEEM LIKE A STRONG WILLED PERSON KELLEIGH

Jennita,

I am afraid I relate to Mic and the guy`s lyrics. My pills were a shelter for me. They were my "little helper." And from June to October of last year, I really did not know how many I was taking. I loved to take a Xanax bar, big dose, 2 mgs, about 6 p.m. and sleep undisturbed, wake up 12 hours later. And I drank with them too. That song makes me said while motivating me. I listen to it from time to time. And I was a drug recepticle in my late teens and early 20s. When first prescribed benzos I was under some pretty serious stress and symptoms were manifesting. I really do not relate to the pure accidental addict that was prescibed benzos for some simple muscle twitch or something then stayed at the same dose for 8 or 10 years. I developed tolerance quick. My biggest complaint is that I was not warned of the extent of the withdrawal syndromes, had I, I would never have started benzos. But I had eaten blue Valiums like candy when I was young along with whatever else happened to be available and never had any benzo specific problems that I can recall. BUT, as to know, I got the discipline to taper, and that is good. It is great hearing you are athletic. I think more exercise will do me good, have gotten slack on my walks, will kick them back up this weekend.

Yep, makes sense, stress weakens the immune system, but I am working on stress reduction. You will see a victory here my friend, no matter the cost, and I think you will be here to rejoice with me. :)

Kayleigh,

Thanks. I know how serious this is. I know potholes in the road may probably be ahead. But I just cannot quit. I hate these drugs, and I will wean off of them even if it hurts like hell. And I will do it in accord with the best available research, slowly, and with the long acting benzo, Valium. I have a course of action, a well trained supportive doctor, and I do everything I can one day at a time to live a normal life. Though I am not real religious I also pray. I also think your life will come together eventually also. After a while you get more used to hurting some off and on (it comes in waves) so thus far I just feel it and keep going, taking rests when I can.

patience, I have just stopped taking methadone hours short of 8 days..could you tell me when I can expect to sleep . No sleep and not even a yawn. Sometimes I think I fall asleep for about 45 minutes..Please tell me soon.. noreally I need honesty , just in high hopes that it will be soon..thanks in advance...and stay strong, I admire you alot, I know it was a nightmare for me..I keep thinking ..."yes!I made it through the hard part, If I can beat that, nothing in life can hold me back. Although I feel like crap I also feel like it has kinda empowered me. Maybe its silly and maybe its from lack of sleep but hope I continue to feel this way. You should be very proud of yourself. I know it was the hardest thing I have ever done. stay strong!!! ;)

patience, I have just stopped taking methadone hours short of 8 days..could you tell me when I can expect to sleep . No sleep and not even a yawn. Sometimes I think I fall asleep for about 45 minutes..Please tell me soon.. noreally I need honesty , just in high hopes that it will be soon..thanks in advance...and stay strong, I admire you alot, I know it was a nightmare for me..I keep thinking ..."yes!I made it through the hard part, If I can beat that, nothing in life can hold me back. Although I feel like crap I also feel like it has kinda empowered me. Maybe its silly and maybe its from lack of sleep but hope I continue to feel this way. You should be very proud of yourself. I know it was the hardest thing I have ever done. stay strong!!! ;)
deeanndees call your doc and see if he will prescribe you trazadone i was on it going through the w/ds and was lucky enough to sleep its just an ssri they use for sleep because everyone is different and your sleep pattern could not be normal for along time my heart is with you i know what your going through i also called my doc and he put me on a fentynal patch and weaned me down to help ease the withdrawals im telling you i really feel for you did you wean off the methadone or go cold turkey please keep in touch im proud of you for doing this it takes alot of will power sleep soon and please call your doc kelleigh :angel: :angel: :angel:

Jennita,

I am afraid I relate to Mic and the guy`s lyrics. My pills were a shelter for me. They were my "little helper." And from June to October of last year, I really did not know how many I was taking. I loved to take a Xanax bar, big dose, 2 mgs, about 6 p.m. and sleep undisturbed, wake up 12 hours later. And I drank with them too. That song makes me said while motivating me. I listen to it from time to time. And I was a drug recepticle in my late teens and early 20s. When first prescribed benzos I was under some pretty serious stress and symptoms were manifesting. I really do not relate to the pure accidental addict that was prescibed benzos for some simple muscle twitch or something then stayed at the same dose for 8 or 10 years. I developed tolerance quick. My biggest complaint is that I was not warned of the extent of the withdrawal syndromes, had I, I would never have started benzos. But I had eaten blue Valiums like candy when I was young along with whatever else happened to be available and never had any benzo specific problems that I can recall. BUT, as to know, I got the discipline to taper, and that is good. It is great hearing you are athletic. I think more exercise will do me good, have gotten slack on my walks, will kick them back up this weekend.

Yep, makes sense, stress weakens the immune system, but I am working on stress reduction. You will see a victory here my friend, no matter the cost, and I think you will be here to rejoice with me. :)

Yes, I will be here rejoicing! :)

Wow, it takes guts to admit all those things you did. I can see why then, you can't relate to most of the people in those support groups since most of them are accidental addicts....they are probably have alot more anger issues about it than you do, and I know sometimes they can go a bit too far with it.....deep down you are taking some of the blame yourself because of your past behavior...the accidental addicts don't, and for good reason.

I think you are being a little hard on yourself and don't realize that your past is not to blame here. Yes, you did something very unwise and dangerous in doing drugs when you were young! But that does not excuse what the doctors did to you in later years by prescribing benzos to you. Because whether or not you did drugs in the past, those drugs should not have been prescribed to you at all, or to anyone for that matter. Yep, I'm one of those people who thinks that benzos have their place in hospital/emergency/anesthetic settings only (their original intent) and that's about it....never should they have reached prescription drug status.

But, then again, I am one of the accidental addicts, so my view is different than yours. I know I had no blame, other than trusting doctors and being a good patient. My past involves no drugs, as I never understood it, really. I prefer real life, not a fake one. Fake ones have no meaning and the real world is always going to be there whether you like it or not, right? As far as alcohol, I tried it but really hated the taste. Plus, I got a bit tipsy and also didn't like the feeling...a little out of control....I like being in control of myself I guess.

But like I said; this is really not your fault either! Your past is not relevant because they also prescribe these pills to innocents like me, and I had a terrible time with tolerance and getting off of them....if my past was relevant, it should have been a different story, right? You get what I'm saying?

Doctors love to blame the patient when their drugs go wrong, you are a perfect example. But where is my blame? I ended up just like you with these drug, but without the drug past. Now, true, I didn't drink with my pills....but guess what? One night out of desperation, I actually did! Yes, me, Ms. "I hate the way alcohol tastes". Why? because it got me a few hours sleep.

I didn't do it again because I realized the next day what was happening and didn't like it. Although I admit, during my worst, sleepless withdrawals, I wondered if I drank some alcohol, would I go to sleep?......sometimes, my husband even would say, maybe I should try it (I wouldn't sleep for days on end and he felt sorry for me). But usually, I'd say to him only if I go one more night without any sleep at all...then thankfully, that night I would get a few hours...so I staved it off long enough to actually avoid using the alcohol.

So as they say, where there is benzos, alcohol is not far behind, even for non-drinkers like me.

The thing is, alcohol will boost the effects of benzos when they start to poop out on you. Some non-drinkers had taken it up during tolerance. One woman in the support group said that she met a doctor who outright admitted that benzos were really just concentrated "alcohol in a pill"....so if a doctor thinks benzos are ok then he is saying (whether he knows it or not) that daily drinking is an ok thing to do.

Now, I remember the measure of comparison was around 1 mg. Ativan=4 oz pure gin. So my daily dose was 8 oz. of gin. This was given to someone who didn't like alcohol...how ironic!

As you can see, the accidental addict is usually no better off than you, howard, when it comes to benzos.

So, I have to insist you do NOT blame yourself for any of this. Your past, although risky, is ancient history and would probably not make a difference in your current situation(as my past did not make a difference either!)

No patience,

Be aware that Trazadone can also lose it's effectiveness over time and also has a withdrawal syndrome. Using it to get over a rough time right now is fine as long as it is doing it's job, but as soon as you feel better, I'd start thinking of tapering it...a nice, slow one, slower even than your doctor recommeds for good measure.

But I am glad for now you are getting some relief while you rid yourself of your former pills. Someday, I am sure you will get off all pills for good. Take it one day at a time; it's not a race but you can make it to the finish line and that's what's important! :wave:

Deeandees,

Don't worry....I know that is hard to do when you simply cannot sleep at all. I've been there and I can tell you, natural sleep will come back. It doesn't come back all at once, and sometimes is irregular for awhile. I remember some of my first sleeps after quitting my benzo as being very light and short....I could hear everything around me, yet I was extremely relaxed. When I would wake, I felt a bit refreshed. Sometimes I would be dreaming....dreaming was a big clue I had actually dosed off because sometimes I wasn't sure!! But the sleeps usually only lasted a short while....sometimes, as little as 10-15 minutes!

But eventually, those minutes became a half-hour; the half-hour became hours, etc.; going without alot of sleep for days turned into sleeping some everyday. Inbetween, I'd have a full night here and there. There was no specific pattern to predict.

It's a process which takes some time. You could go with the Trazadone, if it gets too tough, but it's always' best to let the brain do it's thing in it's own time. If you do take Trazadone, it should start at 50 mgs. from what I've heard, and 100 is average. I would be leary of anything above that since you want to not develop a dependance or tolerance to it.

Good luck to you; I know what you are going through and it's horrible to say the least....

:No patience,

Be aware that Trazadone can also lose it's effectiveness over time and also has a withdrawal syndrome. Using it to get over a rough time right now is fine as long as it is doing it's job, but as soon as you feel better, I'd start thinking of tapering it...a nice, slow one, slower even than your doctor recommeds for good measure.

But I am glad for now you are getting some relief while you rid yourself of your former pills. Someday, I am sure you will get off all pills for good. Take it one day at a time; it's not a race but you can make it to the finish line and that's what's important! :wave:

Deeandees,

Don't worry....I know that is hard to do when you simply cannot sleep at all. I've been there and I can tell you, natural sleep will come back. It doesn't come back all at once, and sometimes is irregular for awhile. I remember some of my first sleeps after quitting my benzo as being very light and short....I could hear everything around me, yet I was extremely relaxed. When I would wake, I felt a bit refreshed. Sometimes I would be dreaming....dreaming was a big clue I had actually dosed off because sometimes I wasn't sure!! But the sleeps usually only lasted a short while....sometimes, as little as 10-15 minutes!

But eventually, those minutes became a half-hour; the half-hour became hours, etc.; going without alot of sleep for days turned into sleeping some everyday. Inbetween, I'd have a full night here and there. There was no specific pattern to predict.

It's a process which takes some time. You could go with the Trazadone, if it gets too tough, but it's always' best to let the brain do it's thing in it's own time. If you do take Trazadone, it should start at 50 mgs. from what I've heard, and 100 is average. I would be leary of anything above that since you want to not develop a dependance or tolerance to it.

Good luck to you; I know what you are going through and it's horrible to say the least....
jennita i've been on trazadone for over a year 200 mgs and its never lost it effectiveness the way i see it is i got the sleep i needed to heal seeing how sleep is the best way to heal i'm now actually weaning my self down off it because i want natural sleep and all these other meds i take i cant wait to get off off i just feel if you need some help through a rough time thats what you gotta do if i wasnt on some of these meds i'd be a basket case i actually still have alot of issues but hopefully in time they will resolve their selves thanks so much for caring it means alot you're awesome to worry about someone you dont even know and with what i've been through i completly understand why you do thanks again kelleigh :angel: :wave: :)

Jennita,

I see what you are saying. I agree that the drugs should not have been prescribed to me in the first place. They are too risky, my case not severe enough, but again I think my docs were ignorant and maybe lazy also, but not devious. And the doctors, from the get go, gave me what I asked for, and I am good at asking... And I liked my "little pills" as they helped me through the stress of a profession that most people could not or would not do. It is a "real world" that you may not want to experience. So I am on the same page as Mic and Kieth`s song, and honestly, think there are probably more in those forums that are also than lead on. But once a tone is set one is pressured to go with the flow or face criticism or "the swarm," to use internet terminology. Yes, it is nice not having the doctor anger to deal with, but I do not beat myself up either. I have taken a sound course of action to protect and regain my health and that is all I can do, one day at a time.

Kayleigh,

Am glad the Trazadone is helping you. I have searched near and far for horror stories about it but cannot find any. And if it had any big risks I am confident, that Jennita, who has done a lot of homework, would be slamming it... I may take it up if things get rough, but right now, antihistamine is an effective knock out when needed. Comes recommended, and no need to taper it like Trazadone. But this is all made easier by the slow Valium taper. Thank you Heather Ashton... :-)

Kayleigh,

Am glad the Trazadone is helping you. I have searched near and far for horror stories about it but cannot find any. And if it had any big risks I am confident, that Jennita, who has done a lot of homework, would be slamming it... I may take it up if things get rough, but right now, antihistamine is an effective knock out when needed. Comes recommended, and no need to taper it like Trazadone. But this is all made easier by the slow Valium taper. Thank you Heather Ashton... :-)
howard678 i never thought of taking antihistimine when im glad something is helping you and good luck on the valium taper are you almost through that? i want to thank you to for all your info on klonopin since i read all you told me i've been very careful about how musch i take thanx again kelleigh :angel:

:
jennita i've been on trazadone for over a year 200 mgs and its never lost it effectiveness the way i see it is i got the sleep i needed to heal seeing how sleep is the best way to heal i'm now actually weaning my self down off it because i want natural sleep and all these other meds i take i cant wait to get off off i just feel if you need some help through a rough time thats what you gotta do if i wasnt on some of these meds i'd be a basket case i actually still have alot of issues but hopefully in time they will resolve their selves thanks so much for caring it means alot you're awesome to worry about someone you dont even know and with what i've been through i completly understand why you do thanks again kelleigh :angel: :wave: :)

I'm glad the Trazadone didn't poop out on you; I've heard a few people complaining about that. So your tapering may go more smoothly. Glad to hear you do want to be med free someday because there are alot of people who have done just that and have been successful. I do care and hope you will be able to do that someday.....like you said, sometimes you need help through a rough time and clearly getting off meds is just that. Take your time. Lots of luck to you; hopefully all of us will still be here on the boards so we can celebrate that day with you!

I'm glad the Trazadone didn't poop out on you; I've heard a few people complaining about that. So your tapering may go more smoothly. Glad to hear you do want to be med free someday because there are alot of people who have done just that and have been successful. I do care and hope you will be able to do that someday.....like you said, sometimes you need help through a rough time and clearly getting off meds is just that. Take your time. Lots of luck to you; hopefully all of us will still be here on the boards so we can celebrate that day with you!
thanks jennita it really means alot that you care so much all the support i've gotten from you and others is really helping me again i can't thank you enough for you're support luv kelleigh :wave:

Jennita,

I see what you are saying. I agree that the drugs should not have been prescribed to me in the first place. They are too risky, my case not severe enough, but again I think my docs were ignorant and maybe lazy also, but not devious. And the doctors, from the get go, gave me what I asked for, and I am good at asking... And I liked my "little pills" as they helped me through the stress of a profession that most people could not or would not do. It is a "real world" that you may not want to experience. So I am on the same page as Mic and Kieth`s song, and honestly, think there are probably more in those forums that are also than lead on. But once a tone is set one is pressured to go with the flow or face criticism or "the swarm," to use internet terminology. Yes, it is nice not having the doctor anger to deal with, but I do not beat myself up either. I have taken a sound course of action to protect and regain my health and that is all I can do, one day at a time.


I'm glad you are not blaming yourself. I might be a bit hard on doctors because I feel they should know better, but I suppose really they can only go by what drug reps. tell them about the drugs. It's like this> we trust the doctors, and the doctors trust the drug companies. But still, some doctors insist they are right when they are clearly wrong and it's that attitude that kinda gripes me.....

Hey, did you mention you were a computer programmer? I wonder because that's what my sons is studying right now in college.

Kayleigh,

I have been tapering 3 months and have at least another 3 to go, perhaps 4 or 5. Longer if necessary, "the tortoise still wins the race." Antihistamine is a great sleep aid, and I am supposed to take it daily anyway for allergies, though I have not seen an allergist in years. I do not take it during the day because of drowsiness.

thanks jennita it really means alot that you care so much all the support i've gotten from you and others is really helping me again i can't thank you enough for you're support luv kelleigh :wave:

(((((((kelleigh))))))))))))Big hug!!! :)

:(((((((kelleigh))))))))))))Big hug!!! :)
awww! i needed that thank you :angel: :) :angel: :)

Jennita,

I truly do not blame myself. One way or another, my requests for those meds should have been denied. When I recover one of my projects will be to work for reforms. I would like to see descriptions of the potentials in withdrawal syndromes, symptoms, longevity, in the pharm inserts. I read these and would not have swallowed the first Xanax had this been done.

Computer programmer? No mam. That should be a moonlight serenade compared to what I do. lol Nice paydays too. I am arguably in the highest stress profession in the country and not well compensated. I could tell you some stories. Just not my preference here on a public board and if there is a PM feature, I do not see it...

Oh, I thought since you mentioned computers/internet/something of that sort....

Wow, sorry you are stuck in such a stress-boiler, whatever it is! :dizzy: :blob_fire :eek: :dizzy:

Well, my son's boss is a dick. But this is only his part-time job while he goes through school, so he ignores his boss and just does his job...he's really the only one there who knows so much about computers as the rest of the staff are sales and accountants...and his boss is certainly not a computer whiz so my son sort of has the upper hand. Anyway, it seems he does yell at all his employees and they are super-stressed out because of it...my son already knew how to handle his type. My son walked out of the bosses' office one time while the boss was still yelling and it seems now the boss doesn't yell at him as much as the others :) My son won't yell back, ignores/makes his statements/answers and then just goes back to work.

Jobs are stressful enough without a pompous boss, right???? Job performance/employee loyalty has been evaluated as better when employees are treated better, so I don't know what my son's boss is thinking; well, my son said lots of people have already quit since he's been there, which hasn't been too long, soooo...

Anyway, hope this helps...((((((((((((howard)))))))))))))) hugs!

Jennita,

Acquaintances and associates that have no idea about the benzo withdrawal say they do not know how I do it. I actually have two jobs, one long hours and high stress, one short hours, low stress. I guess I do not like the alternative, sitting at home watching grade B movies and my bank balance shrink. And I have had a very extensive physical exam and all is good, so I am probably not going to drop dead. But I do plan on some employment changes in the near future. A lot of things inspire me like Churchill`s quote when the bombs kept falling, "We will never surrender." That and the fact that I have acquired a lot of experience at feeling crappy off and on. Affects me less... Thanks for the encouragement and the hug. :)

Jennita,

Acquaintances and associates that have no idea about the benzo withdrawal say they do not know how I do it. I actually have two jobs, one long hours and high stress, one short hours, low stress. I guess I do not like the alternative, sitting at home watching grade B movies and my bank balance shrink. And I have had a very extensive physical exam and all is good, so I am probably not going to drop dead. But I do plan on some employment changes in the near future. A lot of things inspire me like Churchill`s quote when the bombs kept falling, "We will never surrender." That and the fact that I have acquired a lot of experience at feeling crappy off and on. Affects me less... Thanks for the encouragement and the hug. :)
howard if you don't mind my asking what are the benzow/d symptoms i hear their worse than what i went through with methadone thanks kelleigh

Jennita,

Acquaintances and associates that have no idea about the benzo withdrawal say they do not know how I do it. I actually have two jobs, one long hours and high stress, one short hours, low stress. I guess I do not like the alternative, sitting at home watching grade B movies and my bank balance shrink. And I have had a very extensive physical exam and all is good, so I am probably not going to drop dead. But I do plan on some employment changes in the near future. A lot of things inspire me like Churchill`s quote when the bombs kept falling, "We will never surrender." That and the fact that I have acquired a lot of experience at feeling crappy off and on. Affects me less... Thanks for the encouragement and the hug. :)
howard i completly understand your story iknow methadone and benzos are 2 different things but when i went cold turkey i still had to work 6 days a week and raise my 7 yearr old daughter and i was working 2 jobs but it just got to be to much one of my jobs which i still do is clean houses which wasnt much fun when you had to drag yourself everywhere by your arms its amazing the willpower we get when we know we have to do something even though we feel like crud all our everyday things we do for some of us just have to be done know matter what i sympathize with your situation even though you seem to be handling it like a champ chat later kelleigh :wave: :angel: :wave: :angel:

Thanks Kay Leigh!

Update on Trazadone. Tried one last night. Got no sedation, only some weird feelings and a bad case of dry mouth, a listed side effect. Guess I am one of the ones it does not work well for. One experiment is enough. Glad it has a short half-life, will not be any real traces in my body for long.

Thanks Kay Leigh!

Update on Trazadone. Tried one last night. Got no sedation, only some weird feelings and a bad case of dry mouth, a listed side effect. Guess I am one of the ones it does not work well for. One experiment is enough. Glad it has a short half-life, will not be any real traces in my body for long.
sorry to hear that thats strange about getting wierd feelings what was the dose you took ? sorry it did'nt help :o maybe it doesnt help with benzow/d was that thanks sarcastic

<<sorry to hear that thats strange about getting wierd feelings what was the dose you took ? sorry it did'nt help maybe it doesnt help with benzow/d was that thanks sarcastic>>

50 mgs. It produced no sedation and unwanted side effects. I will take no more, nor will I take an SSRI. Antihistamine is good enough right now to get me to sleep if necessary. If that stops working, I will keep going without sleep, sooner or later the body will get exhausted and you will sleep.

Jennita,

Acquaintances and associates that have no idea about the benzo withdrawal say they do not know how I do it. I actually have two jobs, one long hours and high stress, one short hours, low stress. I guess I do not like the alternative, sitting at home watching grade B movies and my bank balance shrink. And I have had a very extensive physical exam and all is good, so I am probably not going to drop dead. But I do plan on some employment changes in the near future. A lot of things inspire me like Churchill`s quote when the bombs kept falling, "We will never surrender." That and the fact that I have acquired a lot of experience at feeling crappy off and on. Affects me less... Thanks for the encouragement and the hug. :)

Howard, If you didn't know, Churchill was an addict in college. Proof we can overcome. Star

<<sorry to hear that thats strange about getting wierd feelings what was the dose you took ? sorry it did'nt help maybe it doesnt help with benzow/d was that thanks sarcastic>>

50 mgs. It produced no sedation and unwanted side effects. I will take no more, nor will I take an SSRI. Antihistamine is good enough right now to get me to sleep if necessary. If that stops working, I will keep going without sleep, sooner or later the body will get exhausted and you will sleep.
again sorry to hear that hope you sleep normally soon sorry for the poor recomendation just wanted to help kelleigh

Star,

We will overcome if we want to, even if it hurts.

Kay Leigh,

Do not worry about the recommendation on the Trazadone. My doc wanted me to try it. I did plenty of research and decided to give it a trial. No biggie. Would have regardless of your recommendation. My system does not want it. Is the way it goes...

Hey guys, re the trazadone, years ago it did wonders for me and my sleep (loved it). Then I didn't take it for a long time. I tried it a couple years ago and I HATED it and the way it made me feel. Then again, I love ambien, and others hate that. So go figure.

rosie

Jennita,

Acquaintances and associates that have no idea about the benzo withdrawal say they do not know how I do it. I actually have two jobs, one long hours and high stress, one short hours, low stress. I guess I do not like the alternative, sitting at home watching grade B movies and my bank balance shrink. And I have had a very extensive physical exam and all is good, so I am probably not going to drop dead. But I do plan on some employment changes in the near future. A lot of things inspire me like Churchill`s quote when the bombs kept falling, "We will never surrender." That and the fact that I have acquired a lot of experience at feeling crappy off and on. Affects me less... Thanks for the encouragement and the hug. :)

Your welcome! You are lucky to be so healthy, that will help you in the long run...I've heard of some people not only having problems with drugs but also with poor health/diseases at the same time....I can't imagine that, can you?

My brother-in-law is a repiratory therapist and went through some high stress times (emotional too, when patients' die!). He took up skateboarding, of all things, he's in his fourties! He says it helps his stress alot. I guess we all must find what can do that for us...for me it's the gym and walking around Disneyland( South Calf. residents annual pass keeps it affordable). Both my brother-in-law and I are just big kids really. :jester:

Exercise will help the most I do believe; makes you feel so much better, whether it's at the gym or shooting hoops at the park, riding a bike, etc.

Star,

We will overcome if we want to, even if it hurts.

Kay Leigh,

Do not worry about the recommendation on the Trazadone. My doc wanted me to try it. I did plenty of research and decided to give it a trial. No biggie. Would have regardless of your recommendation. My system does not want it. Is the way it goes...
howard i admire you to be able to do this w/out the aid of ssris or any thing else you must be very strong i know benzo w/ds are suppose to be awful how long have you been going through this?kelleigh

Kay Leigh,

6 months. I jumped off of a 1 mg a day dose of Klonopin using a barbituate for help the first week. 26 days off my nerves were still raw and the intermittant pressure in my upper back, neck, and head led me to cave in and do things properly by slow tapering a long acting benzo. If I had it to do over I probably would have stuck it out as the hell usually ends within 3 months, but hindsight is 20/20. Now I am down to a relatively low dose of Valium and wil taper it over about 3 or 4 months, making about a 7 month taper. I have taken only 6 sick days from work through it all. Amazing what you can do when you have to. ;) Next time there will be no looking back.

WOW!!keep up the great work and don't forget better days are coming an again it,s great you can you do it w/o any other meds one more question when your taper is done is everything over with like thaw/ds and stuff?

<<WOW!!keep up the great work and don't forget better days are coming an again it,s great you can you do it w/o any other meds one more question when your taper is done is everything over with like thaw/ds and stuff?>>

No, tapering slow does not mean one will have no withdrawals when you come off completely. Most surely do and I`d be very surprised if I do not have them. But the landing should be much softer dropping from a very small dose, withdrawals less severe as the brain along the way has adjusted to accepting less and less of the drug. One typically feels the real effects of coming off for around 3 months. It is not uncommon to feel some level of the effects from time to time for a year or two as the brain fully adjusts back to it`s pre-benzo state. But, I strongly suspect that I will be functional, effective, and enjoying life during such time. Outcomes vary person to person so it is a wait and see thing. Look for the best, be prepared for any potholes in the road. Is the only way out. Only other option once hooked, keep taking the drugs, keep increasing and increasing doses digging a deeper hole, chasing relief. That is not going to happen here...

Hey, Howard, I just finished an inpatient detox. They took me off c/t from 2-3 mg of klonopin/day in addition to my 20-30/day norco habit. gave me pheno barbital at first, then Neurontin. Neurontin didn't sit well w/ me, so now I"m on Topamax, as I previously have had one seizure which might have been linked to discontinuing xanax (though I was taking small amount and irregularly). Looked at Ashton's Manual and see what they did is considered barbaric elsewhere in the world. Am considering having md put me on valium taper--feel headed for more severe protracted w/d. Bad, bad stomach problems. anyway, sounds like you are doing well. Let me know if you have any thoughts on my case.

thanks,
rosie

<<WOW!!keep up the great work and don't forget better days are coming an again it,s great you can you do it w/o any other meds one more question when your taper is done is everything over with like thaw/ds and stuff?>>

No, tapering slow does not mean one will have no withdrawals when you come off completely. Most surely do and I`d be very surprised if I do not have them. But the landing should be much softer dropping from a very small dose, withdrawals less severe as the brain along the way has adjusted to accepting less and less of the drug. One typically feels the real effects of coming off for around 3 months. It is not uncommon to feel some level of the effects from time to time for a year or two as the brain fully adjusts back to it`s pre-benzo state. But, I strongly suspect that I will be functional, effective, and enjoying life during such time. Outcomes vary person to person so it is a wait and see thing. Look for the best, be prepared for any potholes in the road. Is the only way out. Only other option once hooked, keep taking the drugs, keep increasing and increasing doses digging a deeper hole, chasing relief. That is not going to happen here...
so if iget off these with in 4 weeks am i still going to have w/ds i'm just scared now and my methadone w/d was a nightmare and i don't want another w/d in my life post back thanks howard kelleigh

Kay Leigh,

I would say the chances are excellent that you will not suffer withdrawals from the Klonopin if you only use it 4 weeks. Maybe Jennita will come back through and give her opinion. I know your screen name is "no patience," but try and get some. This all is a process, often quite gradual. But in the end, we will be better, stronger, more compassionate human beings for it. :-)

Kay Leigh,

I would say the chances are excellent that you will not suffer withdrawals from the Klonopin if you only use it 4 weeks. Maybe Jennita will come back through and give her opinion. I know your screen name is "no patience," but try and get some. This all is a process, often quite gradual. But in the end, we will be better, stronger, more compassionate human beings for it. :-)
howard thanks for all your help i really appreciate it and keep up the good work at your end you're very strong willed and i hope one day to be med free and feeling normal w/o the help of meds thanks so much howard for taking the time to inform me and teach me the ins and outs benzos are a drug i was'nt familiar with and you've definitly opened my eyes thanks kelleigh :) :)

Kay Leigh,

You are welcome. Any doc, nurse, or pharmacist that is well informed about addiction will tell you that benzodiazepines are easily the toughest withdrawals of all.

howard if i do end up going through these w/ds i'll be posting you alot but let's hope it doesnt come to that i saw my councelor and she wants me on this drug for atleast 1 more month and i try not taking it and i get panicky(did i spell that right) like the panic attacks are coming back i don't know what to do because one sh--ty w/d was enough any suggestions thanks howard :wave: :angel:

Kay Leigh,

I would say the chances are excellent that you will not suffer withdrawals from the Klonopin if you only use it 4 weeks. Maybe Jennita will come back through and give her opinion. I know your screen name is "no patience," but try and get some. This all is a process, often quite gradual. But in the end, we will be better, stronger, more compassionate human beings for it. :-)

Hey, no patience,

Wish I could predict this all for you but when it comes to benzos, who knows...why, I've even heard of a few people not having withdrawals but boy that's pretty rare. The reason the panic came back after you tried not taking one is because you simply can't do that and expect to feel nothing because that's cold turkey which always causes that. But if you really do a super slow taper when the time comes to get off, you may only feel a little bad. You do have the advantage of not being on it for very long....which brings me to the question, why does your doctor want to extend that time? The recommended time on benzos according to the drug companies is usually only 2 weeks; 1 month should be plenty.

I'm also not sure what your doctor is planning in the way of tapering; sometimes they think a certain length of time is enough but usually they only go by what amount of time will be enough to prevent anything serious like seizures....not to prevent other symptoms because they tend to not believe in the withdrawal syndrome much, as we know.

I'd discuss the withdrawal schedule with the doctor; it can't usually be more than a 10% cut every 2 wks. If the doctor refuses that, maybe you should start it on your own since you will be getting an extra month of regular doses to help you taper slower. By the time the doctor approves the start of your taper, you may already be part the way there and will be able to stretch it out some.

Hey, no patience,

Wish I could predict this all for you but when it comes to benzos, who knows...why, I've even heard of a few people not having withdrawals but boy that's pretty rare. The reason the panic came back after you tried not taking one is because you simply can't do that and expect to feel nothing because that's cold turkey which always causes that. But if you really do a super slow taper when the time comes to get off, you may only feel a little bad. You do have the advantage of not being on it for very long....which brings me to the question, why does your doctor want to extend that time? The recommended time on benzos according to the drug companies is usually only 2 weeks; 1 month should be plenty.

I'm also not sure what your doctor is planning in the way of tapering; sometimes they think a certain length of time is enough but usually they only go by what amount of time will be enough to prevent anything serious like seizures....not to prevent other symptoms because they tend to not believe in the withdrawal syndrome much, as we know.

I'd discuss the withdrawal schedule with the doctor; it can't usually be more than a 10% cut every 2 wks. If the doctor refuses that, maybe you should start it on your own since you will be getting an extra month of regular doses to help you taper slower. By the time the doctor approves the start of your taper, you may already be part the way there and will be able to stretch it out some.
hi jennita the doctor prescribed more because i.m still kind of having panicky situations like ending up in places i should'nt be like at the wrong doc or going to the wrong store and having a very hard time in social situations like even family situations some times i just can't bring my self to attend i'm just really having a hard time with coping with life after methadone it's like i'm learning certain things over again and all the stuff i avoided or delt with on methadone is hitting me like a ton of bricks and now i'm just so nervous that i may have to go through hell all over again thank you for replying i need all the info i can get so that way at my next prescribers meeting i can discuss these things with her and hopefully she won't sugar coat it i'm just so scared now i did'nt realize these meds were so bad i was nieve just like with methadone thank you jennita i'm glad i have you and howard for support it helps so much :angel: :angel: :angel:

I'm so sorry for you. All I can tell you is this; it is entirely possible to become drug free and panic free one day. I remember in the early days of my experience that I was so exhausted from racing heart/panic that I could barely talk. I talked in a hushed tone. Sleep? Impossible...

I went to get several opinions from doctors; not one really told me anything about the drugs except they shouldn't have caused any of this; that after 2 weeks, the drug is gone and so should any problems be. ONe time during my early withdrawal I went to a new doctor for a cold and mentioned my conditon at the time...in which I was only sleeping 14 hours a week. She told me it would never improve without pills of some sort because she had seen some of her patients try unsuccessfully....but then again, I wonder how long they tried....2 wks? SHe had never heard of benzo protracted syndrome. But by then, I finally had so I declined her offer of some AD that supposedly would help me sleep. She even offered some more Ativan.....I told her no way.

Now, I don't need pills for anything. I certainly sleep many more hours now too.... and heart racing/panic??....all gone.

Guess she was wrong now, wasn't she? :p

So no matter how long it takes, you will be ok. It may take awhile. It may not. You have a really good chance your withdrawals will be mild or short-lived. I took the benzos much longer than you and developed tolerance....that means, basically, if you took your regular Klonopin right now and felt absolutely no relief. So I was much worse off than you and not informed intil well into it. No doctor informed me of the truth; I found out myself on those websites on benzo withdrawal. I feel very lucky and fortunate that others were willing to go to the trouble to help people like me. I guess sometimes I feel I owe a debt....this is why I periodically visit the boards to try and warn others. Some listen; some don't but I feel it's worth a shot.

Don't let fear about all this get to you because although it is hard to go through, it's not permenant. If you had cancer, or some horrible disease without any cure, it would be a different story. You have something that does have a cure....unfortunately, it's not a magical bullet. It's simply time and preserverance. Take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, rest as much as you need.....and mostly don't be scared this is a life sentence because it isn't. Like Howard said, change your name to have patience! ;)

I'm so sorry for you. All I can tell you is this; it is entirely possible to become drug free and panic free one day. I remember in the early days of my experience that I was so exhausted from racing heart/panic that I could barely talk. I talked in a hushed tone. Sleep? Impossible...

I went to get several opinions from doctors; not one really told me anything about the drugs except they shouldn't have caused any of this; that after 2 weeks, the drug is gone and so should any problems be. ONe time during my early withdrawal I went to a new doctor for a cold and mentioned my conditon at the time...in which I was only sleeping 14 hours a week. She told me it would never improve without pills of some sort because she had seen some of her patients try unsuccessfully....but then again, I wonder how long they tried....2 wks? SHe had never heard of benzo protracted syndrome. But by then, I finally had so I declined her offer of some AD that supposedly would help me sleep. She even offered some more Ativan.....I told her no way.

Now, I don't need pills for anything. I certainly sleep many more hours now too.... and heart racing/panic??....all gone.

Guess she was wrong now, wasn't she? :p

So no matter how long it takes, you will be ok. It may take awhile. It may not. You have a really good chance your withdrawals will be mild or short-lived. I took the benzos much longer than you and developed tolerance....that means, basically, if you took your regular Klonopin right now and felt absolutely no relief. So I was much worse off than you and not informed intil well into it. No doctor informed me of the truth; I found out myself on those websites on benzo withdrawal. I feel very lucky and fortunate that others were willing to go to the trouble to help people like me. I guess sometimes I feel I owe a debt....this is why I periodically visit the boards to try and warn others. Some listen; some don't but I feel it's worth a shot.

Don't let fear about all this get to you because although it is hard to go through, it's not permenant. If you had cancer, or some horrible disease without any cure, it would be a different story. You have something that does have a cure....unfortunately, it's not a magical bullet. It's simply time and preserverance. Take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, rest as much as you need.....and mostly don't be scared this is a life sentence because it isn't. Like Howard said, change your name to have patience! ;)
thanks jennita that makes me feel so much better thanks for your story it helps considerably you've been so helpful and i can't thank you enough i'm glad you stay on the boards because so many people could use people like you and howard no sugar coating thanks again kelleigh :) :angel:

howard i read alot on the ashton manual last night very informative and scared the crap out of me i have a councelor meeting tuesday and i'm definitly bringing up the klonopin god i never realized benzos were so evil i know you and jennita have worned me but reading it in the aston manual really opened my eyes i thank tou and jennita both for all your help i read every w/d is different and if i do have them with the luck have it will be the worst anyone has ever had didn't see any thing from you last night hope your ok kelleigh :angel:

howard i read alot on the ashton manual last night very informative and scared the crap out of me i have a councelor meeting tuesday and i'm definitly bringing up the klonopin god i never realized benzos were so evil i know you and jennita have worned me but reading it in the aston manual really opened my eyes i thank tou and jennita both for all your help i read every w/d is different and if i do have them with the luck have it will be the worst anyone has ever had didn't see any thing from you last night hope your ok kelleigh :angel:

You are welcome but the best thanks you can give us is to get better, ok? I know it's scary but remember this is a temporary condition....may get a bit rough but it's still temporary nevertheless. You will win here if you are willing to do it.

I remember being very scared. But then I felt better a bit. I realized then it is possible to improve. I improved at snails pace; a few times I wondered if I would be ok when I would have a setback. But then I started to improve again; more and more as time went on. Then, I got incredibly angry over what was done to me....this is turn made me more determined to get through it. I still get angry at times, but it sure helps me calm down to know when I have helped someone else who has been a victim of this.

I've been fortunate too, that my husband travels and knows alot of people in his work so I've been able to help alot of people through him. He works for a labor union, and every once in awhile he runs across another victim of prescription pills and he tells them my story. One man in particular I was able to talk with on the phone.....

He was a mess; he had been very well in his life, intil he needed hip surgery.... withdrawals from the amount of painkillers/benzos he was on in the hospital left him sleepless (2 hours a night of sleep) and anxious when he came home (panic attacks).

And then his doctor, true to form, when this problem didn't go away in a week or two referred him to a psychiatrist who gave him the catch-all diagnoisis of clinical depression. This was hard for him to understand since he was always so upbeat; had a great family, loved his job, etc. But thinking he was to believe anyone with M.D. next to his name, he did take the Zoloft the psych prescribed for him.....which worked for a few days and then sleep troubles came back. I talked with him a long time, explaining he was surely not depressed and he simply went through drug withdrawals which do not end in a short time as commonly thought. I told him things I had learned from Ashton Manual, Dr. Ann Tracy and Dr. Peter Breggin websites. Also, I had my own story to go by.

He seemed grateful; he weaned off the Zoloft slowly (he hadn't taken it long but I warned he still needed to taper for safety) and last we heard, he was feeling alot better, less panic and more sleep....

So hang in there!!!! Do remember not to skip your pill or try a cold turkey as this will cause you considerable distress! Slow tapering is the way to go.

Don't thank me.....get better....that's the best thanks for me. Let howard and I know how it all goes from time to time!

Hey howard, hope you are doing well. :wave:

You are welcome but the best thanks you can give us is to get better, ok? I know it's scary but remember this is a temporary condition....may get a bit rough but it's still temporary nevertheless. You will win here if you are willing to do it.

I remember being very scared. But then I felt better a bit. I realized then it is possible to improve. I improved at snails pace; a few times I wondered if I would be ok when I would have a setback. But then I started to improve again; more and more as time went on. Then, I got incredibly angry over what was done to me....this is turn made me more determined to get through it. I still get angry at times, but it sure helps me calm down to know when I have helped someone else who has been a victim of this.

I've been fortunate too, that my husband travels and knows alot of people in his work so I've been able to help alot of people through him. He works for a labor union, and every once in awhile he runs across another victim of prescription pills and he tells them my story. One man in particular I was able to talk with on the phone.....

He was a mess; he had been very well in his life, intil he needed hip surgery.... withdrawals from the amount of painkillers/benzos he was on in the hospital left him sleepless (2 hours a night of sleep) and anxious when he came home (panic attacks).

And then his doctor, true to form, when this problem didn't go away in a week or two referred him to a psychiatrist who gave him the catch-all diagnoisis of clinical depression. This was hard for him to understand since he was always so upbeat; had a great family, loved his job, etc. But thinking he was to believe anyone with M.D. next to his name, he did take the Zoloft the psych prescribed for him.....which worked for a few days and then sleep troubles came back. I talked with him a long time, explaining he was surely not depressed and he simply went through drug withdrawals which do not end in a short time as commonly thought. I told him things I had learned from Ashton Manual, Dr. Ann Tracy and Dr. Peter Breggin websites. Also, I had my own story to go by.

He seemed grateful; he weaned off the Zoloft slowly (he hadn't taken it long but I warned he still needed to taper for safety) and last we heard, he was feeling alot better, less panic and more sleep....

So hang in there!!!! Do remember not to skip your pill or try a cold turkey as this will cause you considerable distress! Slow tapering is the way to go.

Don't thank me.....get better....that's the best thanks for me. Let howard and I know how it all goes from time to time!

Hey howard, hope you are doing well. :wave:
jennita THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

:rolleyes:

<<Hey, no patience,

Wish I could predict this all for you but when it comes to benzos, who knows...why, I've even heard of a few people not having withdrawals but boy that's pretty rare. The reason the panic came back after you tried not taking one is because you simply can't do that and expect to feel nothing because that's cold turkey which always causes that. But if you really do a super slow taper when the time comes to get off, you may only feel a little bad. You do have the advantage of not being on it for very long....which brings me to the question, why does your doctor want to extend that time? The recommended time on benzos according to the drug companies is usually only 2 weeks; 1 month should be plenty.>> Jennita

I am one more case you have heard of that quit with no withdrawals, 8 months, .5 mgs of Xanax = the same with Klonopin, ran out of pills, was off 3 months with no problems at all. I just did not want to bother going to the doc to get more. Was using Benadryl for sleep but the sleep problems pre-dated the benzos. Got the typical winter flu, went in for some anti-biotics and decided to ask for some Xanax. Got it. Four months later quit again for 10 days, only to save pills in case I needed extras on vacation, do not sleep well in strange beds. Again, no withdrawals, and with the very short half-life of Xanax, chances are excellent that if I was going to feel something I would have within 10 days. I just had no interest in quitting for good as I was ignorant of the potential withdrawal syndromes, severity, longevity. One would have a ways to go to sell me on the idea that my case is "pretty rare." I would also have difficulty with the idea that cases where people that stop in 2 to 4 weeks with no problems, which is the recommended use time frame in the U.S. & the U.K., is in any way rare. What I would think would be rare is your story about the man that had surgery, used benzos and opiates in that setting, and came out addicted. But I do not know how long he was in the hospital on the drugs... I am aware of no research to illustrate that benzos create anything like instant addiction in even the majority that take them. A quote from Breggin would not surprise me, but actually about nothing would. This man is obviously a crusader...

If Kay Leigh comes off Klonopin in a month and still has panic attacks then these episodes cannot be fairly attributed to benzos as the condition pre-existed. Tapering is a pain in the butt and expensive if you do not have good insurance, cutting pills, carrying them around, monthly doctor visits. There is no point in this if it is not necessary. And her panic problem, just as like my sleep problem, will have to be addressed. Benzos did not cause these in our cases, and I do not believe they magically go away when ceasing the drugs unless other therapies are employed in the interim. Why? Because it makes no sense. Plus, if she embarks on one of these one year or so tapers that are so often recommended she could become addicted in the process while at the present time she is not. :eek:

<<Hey, no patience,

Wish I could predict this all for you but when it comes to benzos, who knows...why, I've even heard of a few people not having withdrawals but boy that's pretty rare. The reason the panic came back after you tried not taking one is because you simply can't do that and expect to feel nothing because that's cold turkey which always causes that. But if you really do a super slow taper when the time comes to get off, you may only feel a little bad. You do have the advantage of not being on it for very long....which brings me to the question, why does your doctor want to extend that time? The recommended time on benzos according to the drug companies is usually only 2 weeks; 1 month should be plenty.>> Jennita

I am one more case you have heard of that quit with no withdrawals, 8 months, .5 mgs of Xanax = the same with Klonopin, ran out of pills, was off 3 months with no problems at all. I just did not want to bother going to the doc to get more. Was using Benadryl for sleep but the sleep problems pre-dated the benzos. Got the typical winter flu, went in for some anti-biotics and decided to ask for some Xanax. Got it. Four months later quit again for 10 days, only to save pills in case I needed extras on vacation, do not sleep well in strange beds. Again, no withdrawals, and with the very short half-life of Xanax, chances are excellent that if I was going to feel something I would have within 10 days. I just had no interest in quitting for good as I was ignorant of the potential withdrawal syndromes, severity, longevity. One would have a ways to go to sell me on the idea that my case is "pretty rare." I would also have difficulty with the idea that cases where people that stop in 2 to 4 weeks with no problems, which is the recommended use time frame in the U.S. & the U.K., is in any way rare. What I would think would be rare is your story about the man that had surgery, used benzos and opiates in that setting, and came out addicted. But I do not know how long he was in the hospital on the drugs... I am aware of no research to illustrate that benzos create anything like instant addiction in even the majority that take them. A quote from Breggin would not surprise me, but actually about nothing would. This man is obviously a crusader...

If Kay Leigh comes off Klonopin in a month and still has panic attacks then these episodes cannot be fairly attributed to benzos as the condition pre-existed. Tapering is a pain in the butt and expensive if you do not have good insurance, cutting pills, carrying them around, monthly doctor visits. There is no point in this if it is not necessary. And her panic problem, just as like my sleep problem, will have to be addressed. Benzos did not cause these in our cases, and I do not believe they magically go away when ceasing the drugs unless other therapies are employed in the interim. Why? Because it makes no sense. Plus, if she embarks on one of these one year or so tapers that are so often recommended she could become addicted in the process while at the present time she is not. :eek:
hey howard hope everything is well keep up the good work and thaks for all your help kelleigh

Rosie Tree,

Am quite sorry I missed your post and did not reply right away. You are feeling it, normal. Heather Ashton is a good scientist, seems to try to be objective, and chooses her words carefully, but she is not God. What might be considered "barbariac," IMO, is the cold turkey part, not the Phenobarb. A non-benzo, sedative, ant-seizure med is advisable if one is to cold turkey off benzos. Phenobarb use short term is not a bad choice. Keeps withdrawals in check, gets one over the initial hump. But you are poly addicted, opiates in the mix, and I do not believe everyone has the discipline to taper. How long have you been off all the drugs at this point?? I want to know more. Also it may not be easy to distinguish between your opiate and benzo withdrawals at this point... How long did you take benzos? Did you take them daily? You may not be addicted to them at all, but just opiates. You may want to seriously consider toughing this one out rather than going back on benzos, especially if you do not have to work. If I had it to do over I would have done just that. I worked through my cold turkey and saw real relief at about 2 weeks off, but a stressful week followed and tremors and muscle tension really flared up. Pills were in the house and I caved in. If I had it to do over, I would have flushed the pills as so many had advised me, then in all likelihood I would be fine right now and not having to bother tapering, not to mention the extra money I am spending.

As to "protracted withdrawals," this is defined differently by different people. For Ashton it means withdrawal symptoms beyond 18 months, occuring in about 15% of cases according to her, but I have also read that she did not follow her patients up past a year... Is mystery on this one. But this by no means means that you would feel like you do now for that long. And she only states that cold turkeying increases the likelihood of the situation, is no guarantee of it, could happen also with a slow taper. But worrying about something that may or may not happen is certainly not good for our psychological health... You have chosen a course of action. Trying another avenue at this point may not be the best move.

P.S.
You mentioned in an earlier post that you liked Ambien. The chemical composition of this drug is very close to benzos, it is addictive, has a withdrawal syndrome, and is also made for short term use only. Beware, that and Sonata.

<<Hey, no patience,

Wish I could predict this all for you but when it comes to benzos, who knows...why, I've even heard of a few people not having withdrawals but boy that's pretty rare. The reason the panic came back after you tried not taking one is because you simply can't do that and expect to feel nothing because that's cold turkey which always causes that. But if you really do a super slow taper when the time comes to get off, you may only feel a little bad. You do have the advantage of not being on it for very long....which brings me to the question, why does your doctor want to extend that time? The recommended time on benzos according to the drug companies is usually only 2 weeks; 1 month should be plenty.>> Jennita

I am one more case you have heard of that quit with no withdrawals, 8 months, .5 mgs of Xanax = the same with Klonopin, ran out of pills, was off 3 months with no problems at all. I just did not want to bother going to the doc to get more. Was using Benadryl for sleep but the sleep problems pre-dated the benzos. Got the typical winter flu, went in for some anti-biotics and decided to ask for some Xanax. Got it. Four months later quit again for 10 days, only to save pills in case I needed extras on vacation, do not sleep well in strange beds. Again, no withdrawals, and with the very short half-life of Xanax, chances are excellent that if I was going to feel something I would have within 10 days. I just had no interest in quitting for good as I was ignorant of the potential withdrawal syndromes, severity, longevity. One would have a ways to go to sell me on the idea that my case is "pretty rare." I would also have difficulty with the idea that cases where people that stop in 2 to 4 weeks with no problems, which is the recommended use time frame in the U.S. & the U.K., is in any way rare. What I would think would be rare is your story about the man that had surgery, used benzos and opiates in that setting, and came out addicted. But I do not know how long he was in the hospital on the drugs... I am aware of no research to illustrate that benzos create anything like instant addiction in even the majority that take them. A quote from Breggin would not surprise me, but actually about nothing would. This man is obviously a crusader...

If Kay Leigh comes off Klonopin in a month and still has panic attacks then these episodes cannot be fairly attributed to benzos as the condition pre-existed. Tapering is a pain in the butt and expensive if you do not have good insurance, cutting pills, carrying them around, monthly doctor visits. There is no point in this if it is not necessary. And her panic problem, just as like my sleep problem, will have to be addressed. Benzos did not cause these in our cases, and I do not believe they magically go away when ceasing the drugs unless other therapies are employed in the interim. Why? Because it makes no sense. Plus, if she embarks on one of these one year or so tapers that are so often recommended she could become addicted in the process while at the present time she is not. :eek:

Hey howard,

True, that man was not addicted after his hospital stay but had become a bit dependant on the drugs; his natural sleep patterns effected mainly.
It is entirely possible in 2 weeks as we have read, especially with cold turkey as he was. However, he is already, in just a few months, alot better and almost back to normal sleep and anxiety has already passed. He may have been better sooner had he not tried some Ambien, then Zoloft as per his doctor's urging after he still had some insomnia for 3 weeks...when the brain is trying to recover, other drugs, even for a few nights or a week, may delay proper healing.

But at any rate, his suffering did not last long but if I hadn't talked to him, he may have again resorted to whatever magical drug the doctor had to offer him after the failure of Zoloft, or he may have stayed on it like his doc wanted him to and then who knows if he would still be having trouble now.

He told my husband we saved his life! I suppose that's over stated a bit, but he really meant it, he is doing so well now! :)

I don't think no patience will be absolutly certain of no lingering drug effects after only a month as even mild cases can linger for a few months; however, you have a point about the pre-existing panic which if the source of that is still around(whether external, emotional, etc), then it must be sorted out.

Yes, you are also right about protracted withdrawals as they get weaker and weaker as time goes, then finally exit. For example, there was a time when a "bad" night for me was no sleep at all; then later, a "bad" night's "definition" became only 2 hours sleep. Even later, 4 hours became the definition of a bad night. In contrast, early withdrawals meant no sleep for days. So when in protracted withdrawals, you are right, that condition changes quite a bit!!

Benzos don't always cause original condition, but they can worsen it. Sometimes, original condition would have went away (depending!), or may have already gone by the time one is in too deep with benzos. I think that's why I read of some people who were very surprised that after their withdrawals were over, their original panic/sleep problems did not come back. They assumed whatever was causing it in the beginning was no longer around because they wondered why it never returned.

But for some, the original reason is still around. This is why kelligh must continue some sort of therapy to figure this out, even after withdrawals. A full physical, some psychotherapy or even CBT may eliminate that original cause, if it is indeed still around. And of course, there should not be a years' worth of tapering for such a short run and lower dose as she is on. A few months should be ok; however, it's no race and she should go as slow/fast as she feels is ok.

Jennita,

It is refreshing finding someone like yourself that can stand some disagreement without getting defensive and personal. :-) Kay Leigh`s case is not easy as opiates and panic issues are also on the table, so what may be quickly attributed to benzos may be something else. I hate these drugs as much as anyone but insist on trying to be objective. Some of this relates to my academic training.

I think a lot of tapering problems are related to the fear of tapering rather than the tapering itself. Ashton alludes to this. I feel it but cut 1.25 mgs a week and remain thus far plenty functional. And "plenty functional" is my definition of stable. And have no plans of taking 20 weeks to bust out the last 10 mgs, though I remain open minded on it. Stringing out a taper too long leaves one more prone to get hit more and more from two directions, reduction and tolerance withdrawals.

I have a hard time personally viewing insomnia as a withdrawal symptom. The problem is no worse now than it was 10 years ago, long before benzos. I recall Janik, and no offense to him if he reads this, speaking of taking 5 months to taper off of .25 mgs of Xanax, this over insomnia. That is unimagineable to me. That equates to 5 mgs of Valium. I know it is relative to some degree by that is just not much benzo. I plan to take the plunge at 2 or 3 mgs, especially if I am already feeling it, see no point in tapering pinches that only partially postpone the inevitable, some discomfort for a while.

As to Kay Leigh, well I think the discussion regarding her tapering will probably prove moot in the end, as I strongly suspect she will take her doctor`s advice and keep taking her pretty high dose of Klonopin for a while long, and then will need to taper. My suggestion I guess about 10 days ago was to ditch the stuff but I do not think that is going to happen. I never had a panic attack pre-benzo. Last one I had was in detox last Nov. I think some of the reason is that I am no longer afraid of them. I used to think they were heart attacks but all my tests in that area are normal. I know what they are, what they feel like, and what they can and cannot do. If I have one, I`ll just have it and if by chance I am in public I will excuse myself for a while. I am not looking for them or expecting them.

Jennita,

It is refreshing finding someone like yourself that can stand some disagreement without getting defensive and personal. :-) Kay Leigh`s case is not easy as opiates and panic issues are also on the table, so what may be quickly attributed to benzos may be something else. I hate these drugs as much as anyone but insist on trying to be objective. Some of this relates to my academic training.

I think a lot of tapering problems are related to the fear of tapering rather than the tapering itself. Ashton alludes to this. I feel it but cut 1.25 mgs a week and remain thus far plenty functional. And "plenty functional" is my definition of stable. And have no plans of taking 20 weeks to bust out the last 10 mgs, though I remain open minded on it. Stringing out a taper too long leaves one more prone to get hit more and more from two directions, reduction and tolerance withdrawals.

I have a hard time personally viewing insomnia as a withdrawal symptom. The problem is no worse now than it was 10 years ago, long before benzos. I recall Janik, and no offense to him if he reads this, speaking of taking 5 months to taper off of .25 mgs of Xanax, this over insomnia. That is unimagineable to me. That equates to 5 mgs of Valium. I know it is relative to some degree by that is just not much benzo. I plan to take the plunge at 2 or 3 mgs, especially if I am already feeling it, see no point in tapering pinches that only partially postpone the inevitable, some discomfort for a while.

As to Kay Leigh, well I think the discussion regarding her tapering will probably prove moot in the end, as I strongly suspect she will take her doctor`s advice and keep taking her pretty high dose of Klonopin for a while long, and then will need to taper. My suggestion I guess about 10 days ago was to ditch the stuff but I do not think that is going to happen. I never had a panic attack pre-benzo. Last one I had was in detox last Nov. I think some of the reason is that I am no longer afraid of them. I used to think they were heart attacks but all my tests in that area are normal. I know what they are, what they feel like, and what they can and cannot do. If I have one, I`ll just have it and if by chance I am in public I will excuse myself for a while. I am not looking for them or expecting them.

Thanks, howard. Well, we all have our individual views, experiences, and collection of information. For example, if you don't like Breggin, that's ok although I think he's a pioneer; Dr. Ann Tracy has been warning about SSRi's, inaccurate disclosures in clinical testing, etc. for 14 years now finally the mainstream media and the FDA have discovered it for themselves so I admire her too but you don't have to just because I do....but we both have Ashton so at least that's something, huh? ;)

I believe Janik's experience because you really never know about these drugs...I remember one poor woman had horrible insomnia over letting go of just 3 mgs. Valium in the support group at the end of her taper...I forgot what she started on.

She would give up too soon and take it again then try not to...very irregular and soon the 3 mgs. stopped working. I tried to tell her she did not give natural sleep enough time and she kept giving in to more Valium after a few days, then she'd get mad at herself and try to not take any. She never stayed on course. She stopped writing so I don't know what happened to her but she was in bad shape, passing out at work, losing her job, etc...all over 3 mgs. Valium!

So I know some of this is hard to believe but sometimes you never know. That's why I don't think the drugs should be taken so lightly. I know some people can take them and then leave them but it's such a risky business...like you said, if you had known how risky you wouldn't have chanced it. Neither would I have!

Your insomnia was different than mine's or Janiks. You would be so jealous of my sleep history I don't know if I should tell you about it. Well, suffice to say it was excellent. Benzos took that away. I got most of it back; at 3+ years off, it's not back to my pre-benzo sleep but that's ok as I am still, unbelievable as it would seem at this point, improving steadily. I remember once a very nice woman e-mailed me in the group, an old-timer who was back to normal sleep and said it took 5 years for that to happen for her....during that time, she began to sleep well, but it took longer for it to become consistant and whole again. In other words, back to old consistancy and reliability.

That's an aweful amount of time to have to wait for something that was taken away from you so needlessly. This is what is so disgusting about all this...needless suffering.

I think your insomnia is a different story. I hope after benzos you can do something to help it. I do know good diet and exercise really helps but I also know there can be more to it, so I hope you can figure it all out.

I don't know if I'm right, but it also sounds like the panic stuff is on it's way out with you. I think you've passed it up already; if any does appear again I'm sure it will be short lived. Hurray!!! :bouncing:

I think you were right about kelleigh; maybe should have stopped the klonopin sooner, but she has to do what she feels is best and she was also battling methadone problems. At least she has the information she needs now to get through everything ok....that does really make a difference.

howard and jennita thank you for all the information you 2 have shared when i first went on klonopin i think 3 to 4 weeks ago i never would have known how horrible this med no drug really was i would have been nieve to it just like to methadone i can't wait to go to my prescriber tuesday and see just how much she is aware of you 2 have educated me so much just by chatting back and forth see the problem with the klonopin they think it's an underlying anxiety disorder because tomorrow will be 3 months off methadone and i still have aniexty symptoms which some say is normal and some say is not i've reasearched and reasearched about methadone w/d and anxiety and all i find is conflicting research so i'm stuck do i have an anxiety disorder or is it still from the physchological w/d of methadone you 2 are so well educated if you could help me in that department i'd be greatful thank you 2 kelleigh :wave:

I just quit using the duragesic patch. I have been on opiates for 5 years. I am having increased anxiety attachs also. My dr put me on a low dose of xanax for the anxiety and upped my antidepressent to also help. Good luck in staying of the methadone.
thank you karla what were you on the duragesic patch for

howard i meant to ask how your taper is going and if your sleep is still in alittle bit of chaos hope all is well thanks again for all your help kelleigh :wave:

<<Dr. Ann Tracy has been warning about SSRi's, inaccurate disclosures in clinical testing, etc. for 14 years now finally the mainstream media and the FDA have discovered it for themselves so I admire her too but you don't have to just because I do....>>

I am not familiar with this doctor, but if it is the drug companies that can be proven to have given inaccurate disclosures in clinical trials then many should be on their way to some successful lawsuits. I know someone that piggy backed on a Phen Phen lawsuit and she is healthy as a horse, strutting about buying designer clothes and every luxury item imagineable. Wish I had got a script of that, just never had a weight problem...

<<She would give up too soon and take it again then try not to...very irregular and soon the 3 mgs. stopped working. I tried to tell her she did not give natural sleep enough time and she kept giving in to more Valium after a few days, then she'd get mad at herself and try to not take any. She never stayed on course. She stopped writing so I don't know what happened to her but she was in bad shape, passing out at work, losing her job, etc...all over 3 mgs. Valium!>>

I do not know what this woman was thinking. Valium loses it`s real effectiveness as a sleep aid in about a month or two according to many and that was the case with me. I had real trouble keeping my eyes open at work on several occasions for about two weeks, then I loaded up the night dose reducing the day. Now, four months later, it may push me along a bit if I am already tired before bed, that`s it. I would still contend that 3 mgs. of Valium amounts to about nothing and should not be expected to do much. She may have been doing some serious updosing, thus the passing out at work. Who knows.

No personal offense toward anyone, but I have read all personal accounts on the net with a grain of salt. We do not know these people from Adam or necessarily the whole story about their histories. I do know this, I have gotten a few on the phone that were no doubt way out there, real mental problems that may well have pre-dated benzos. A couple contradicted themselves about every 10 minutes. Benzos are regularly prescribed to such individuals, but when the focus is on attributing all or about all symptoms/problems to benzos this rarely comes out...

As to the people on this board, that are coming off opiates, taking SSRIs and benzos, I just do not know what to say, or how to unravel it all. And frankly, do not have much faith in their doctors, especially if they are psychiatrists, to do likewise. I have just told my doctor what I want to do, get off benzos period, no SSRIs for me please, and he is doing all he can to help. I like him.

howard i meant to ask how your taper is going and if your sleep is still in alittle bit of chaos hope all is well thanks again for all your help kelleigh :wave:

Hello. :) I am doing good, am cut to 12.5 mgs of Valium a day. In Klonopin terms that is .625. I just keep pressing on, have an excellent doc in my corner. I am prepared to feel pain and discomfort if it comes, am no stranger to it, part of the price to pay. Sleep? No problem on the weekends as I can be my night owl self. My job however requires early risings so during the week I either function on less sleep or use Benadryl. I do not have sleepless nights. How are you doing?

:) Hello. :) I am doing good, am cut to 12.5 mgs of Valium a day. In Klonopin terms that is .625. I just keep pressing on, have an excellent doc in my corner. I am prepared to feel pain and discomfort if it comes, am no stranger to it, part of the price to pay. Sleep? No problem on the weekends as I can be my night owl self. My job however requires early risings so during the week I either function on less sleep or use Benadryl. I do not have sleepless nights. How are you doing?
i'm doing ok that's great that you have an excellent doc in your corner at my appointment tuesday i'll know just how great mine is due to you and jennita i have alot of klonopin questions for her and her responses will let me know what i'm in for. i'm sorry i thought you were having trouble sleeping thats why i asked if every thing was getting better in the sleep department. am i correct that you are going to school and working if so that's gotta be tough with the valium taper you are going through just checking in as for my situation to me it's still unresolved due to the fact of being on so many meds when i am med free i will finally change my user name to all the patience in the world lol keep in touch and keep up the great work you are now a role model to me i know it sounds wierd but you are kelleigh :)

:)
you are now a role model to me i know it sounds wierd but you are kelleigh :)

Kelleigh I hope I can live up to that. :) Am still a good ways from the finish line. The personal cost here, still unknown, I take it a day at a time. One thing is for sure though, I will eventually be free of benzodiazepines and will not look back.

<<Dr. Ann Tracy has been warning about SSRi's, inaccurate disclosures in clinical testing, etc. for 14 years now finally the mainstream media and the FDA have discovered it for themselves so I admire her too but you don't have to just because I do....>>

I am not familiar with this doctor, but if it is the drug companies that can be proven to have given inaccurate disclosures in clinical trials then many should be on their way to some successful lawsuits. I know someone that piggy backed on a Phen Phen lawsuit and she is healthy as a horse, strutting about buying designer clothes and every luxury item imagineable. Wish I had got a script of that, just never had a weight problem...

<<She would give up too soon and take it again then try not to...very irregular and soon the 3 mgs. stopped working. I tried to tell her she did not give natural sleep enough time and she kept giving in to more Valium after a few days, then she'd get mad at herself and try to not take any. She never stayed on course. She stopped writing so I don't know what happened to her but she was in bad shape, passing out at work, losing her job, etc...all over 3 mgs. Valium!>>

I do not know what this woman was thinking. Valium loses it`s real effectiveness as a sleep aid in about a month or two according to many and that was the case with me. I had real trouble keeping my eyes open at work on several occasions for about two weeks, then I loaded up the night dose reducing the day. Now, four months later, it may push me along a bit if I am already tired before bed, that`s it. I would still contend that 3 mgs. of Valium amounts to about nothing and should not be expected to do much. She may have been doing some serious updosing, thus the passing out at work. Who knows.

No personal offense toward anyone, but I have read all personal accounts on the net with a grain of salt. We do not know these people from Adam or necessarily the whole story about their histories. I do know this, I have gotten a few on the phone that were no doubt way out there, real mental problems that may well have pre-dated benzos. A couple contradicted themselves about every 10 minutes. Benzos are regularly prescribed to such individuals, but when the focus is on attributing all or about all symptoms/problems to benzos this rarely comes out...

As to the people on this board, that are coming off opiates, taking SSRIs and benzos, I just do not know what to say, or how to unravel it all. And frankly, do not have much faith in their doctors, especially if they are psychiatrists, to do likewise. I have just told my doctor what I want to do, get off benzos period, no SSRIs for me please, and he is doing all he can to help. I like him.

Oh, sorry howard, I mispelled her name, the doctor. It's Dr. Anne Tracy and she has a site running for some years now.

Yeh, as far as personal stories on the net you have to sort of one-eye them as sometimes you can't be sure. The man who had the surgery though, as I mentioned, my husband knew personally. But others who come on the support groups are mixed; some accidental addicts who are perfectly normal like you and I; others do seem to have some previous mental and/or possibly prior street drug and/or alcohol abuse histories. So yes, it's ok to read and help one another but I think best to keep it safe and not always be giving out phone numbers and other personal info.

Yes, I did wonder about the woman who wrote me; seems Valium did help her sleep for awhile but she didn't realize the whole tolerance problems with benzos....

Lawsuits over the SSRi's would be great if only what the drugs co's did was illegal...it wasn't if you can believe it! But it is now creating alot of bad press for them which could prove to be worse for them than paying off any lawsuits.

Well, I'm glad to hear you are not going to consider SSRi's as they also come with a pandora's box of problems.

howard and jennita thank you for all the information you 2 have shared when i first went on klonopin i think 3 to 4 weeks ago i never would have known how horrible this med no drug really was i would have been nieve to it just like to methadone i can't wait to go to my prescriber tuesday and see just how much she is aware of you 2 have educated me so much just by chatting back and forth see the problem with the klonopin they think it's an underlying anxiety disorder because tomorrow will be 3 months off methadone and i still have aniexty symptoms which some say is normal and some say is not i've reasearched and reasearched about methadone w/d and anxiety and all i find is conflicting research so i'm stuck do i have an anxiety disorder or is it still from the physchological w/d of methadone you 2 are so well educated if you could help me in that department i'd be greatful thank you 2 kelleigh :wave:

The answer is pretty simple. If you did not have anxiety before any drugs, methadone or whatever, it's not underlying because it never existed in the first place, it was drug-induced. If you did have previous problems before any intro to drugs, that previous panic issue could still be outdated/no longer relevant/has passed. So it will take some therapy and discovery to sort it all out if that's the case.

kayleigh, Hi...I feel great but I am not completely normal yet :) I do still get a little anxiety but less now that I am getting some sleep. The thing is that since I now know what it is , it doesn't scare me as much..I know yours might be much harder then mine but try to talking to yourself as they are happening..3 mo. is along time but you went c/t from 50mg. I would give it some more time..How often are you having the anxiety..are they attacks or are is it constant? mine come as attacks and last 10 to 20 minutes..
Jennita, I took your advice and only had to take a half of amitrypilene 1 night to sleep. My sleep came back exactly as you described. Minutes to half hours, half hours to hours..I am getting about 5 to 6 hours now and am extremely grateful.. before the withdraw I would have felt deprived with only 5 to 6 hous since I have always been one that loves my sleep and I demanded at least 8 hours..The only pill I now take is my thyroid med..I want to start exercising as I truly believe you know what you are talking about. I made an appointment 4 months ago ( the wait is that long ) to get a shock in the ear to quit smoking. The date just happens to be this tues.I have to fly to st. louis as this is the only place in u.s. to do it. Geez, if this works I will be completely free from any substance having some control over me..Suppose to have a 95% success rate..I found out about it on 20/20....I am so exicted. When I made the appointment I thought hey it might help me with the methadone also, I never thought I would be off of it before the appt. Gods plan for me was different then my own..So much thanks to you for all your knowledge..I am sure you will be needed on this board time and time again..hope you never get tired of helping people.Noone around me could imagine what I was going through. I wished I found this board early in my withdraws. I actually found myself on a pro mehadone board with people telling me to stay on it. It was completely safe on al body organs..Is the brain an organ..lol...Guess it isn't as important to them as it is to me.sorry post is so long..I am off to get my SLEPP>>hehe

kayleigh, Hi...I feel great but I am not completely normal yet :) I do still get a little anxiety but less now that I am getting some sleep. The thing is that since I now know what it is , it doesn't scare me as much..I know yours might be much harder then mine but try to talking to yourself as they are happening..3 mo. is along time but you went c/t from 50mg. I would give it some more time..How often are you having the anxiety..are they attacks or are is it constant? mine come as attacks and last 10 to 20 minutes..
Jennita, I took your advice and only had to take a half of amitrypilene 1 night to sleep. My sleep came back exactly as you described. Minutes to half hours, half hours to hours..I am getting about 5 to 6 hours now and am extremely grateful.. before the withdraw I would have felt deprived with only 5 to 6 hous since I have always been one that loves my sleep and I demanded at least 8 hours..The only pill I now take is my thyroid med..I want to start exercising as I truly believe you know what you are talking about. I made an appointment 4 months ago ( the wait is that long ) to get a shock in the ear to quit smoking. The date just happens to be this tues.I have to fly to st. louis as this is the only place in u.s. to do it. Geez, if this works I will be completely free from any substance having some control over me..Suppose to have a 95% success rate..I found out about it on 20/20....I am so exicted. When I made the appointment I thought hey it might help me with the methadone also, I never thought I would be off of it before the appt. Gods plan for me was different then my own..So much thanks to you for all your knowledge..I am sure you will be needed on this board time and time again..hope you never get tired of helping people.Noone around me could imagine what I was going through. I wished I found this board early in my withdraws. I actually found myself on a pro mehadone board with people telling me to stay on it. It was completely safe on al body organs..Is the brain an organ..lol...Guess it isn't as important to them as it is to me.sorry post is so long..I am off to get my SLEPP>>hehe
danndees my panic was everyday from feb 3 (when i quit methadone) until april 5 i was having attacks all the time i don't know if you read my other reply to you but i would end up going to wrong places like my primary doc instead of my pain doc and then driving 30 minutes to an appointment and saying to my self i don't have an appt today and turn around get half way home and reality would set in and i would say sh-t i do have one my panic was so bad i was taking it out on mydaughter and not meaning to she would ask the smallest questions and i'd start freaking out and going into an attack which i know the breathing technique but i had to do this over 6 times aday so finally i said my daughter can't suffer this anymore i feared for her because i drive her to school and take her many other places and did'nt want to have one with her in the car and end up off the road it was that bad that's why i have to take these stupid meds i don't want to but i'll see tomorrow if i need them long term if this is from the methadone i think i may have a few choice words for my primary doc for not weaning me properly oh one more thing i smoke also my councelor said i can't quit yet it may cause a set back but on wednesday i'm done with those to my boss and i are doing it together i cant believe some of the things we have in common i swear i have a long lost twin i'm so happy you're feeling better especially with no meds to today is day 90 for me and i'm still not doing 100 % but i envy you for doing so well after 17 days sorry so long luv kelleigh :angel: :wave:

;) howard when you are benzo free we will celebrate. you're experience has given me hope and with all i've read about benzo w/d and tapering it just sounds awful and it's like you're handling so well and the role part comes from doing this with out any aid except benadryl that to me is just awesome and now i have a goal to slowly rid my body of all theses stupid drugs and you've given me the will power to do that just from reading about your experience thank you so much (and jennita also) just reading your replys to each other has helped me so much i can't thank you enough kelleigh :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

howard i also wanted you to know that today is 90 days methadone free got rid of one med hopefully soon the rest will go to kelleigh :wave:

:wave: hi howard i was hoping you were on last night i have an appointment today with the one prescribing me klonopin and need some advice about what i should say to her hope your doing well :) kelleigh

kayleigh, Hi...I feel great but I am not completely normal yet :) I do still get a little anxiety but less now that I am getting some sleep. The thing is that since I now know what it is , it doesn't scare me as much..I know yours might be much harder then mine but try to talking to yourself as they are happening..3 mo. is along time but you went c/t from 50mg. I would give it some more time..How often are you having the anxiety..are they attacks or are is it constant? mine come as attacks and last 10 to 20 minutes..
Jennita, I took your advice and only had to take a half of amitrypilene 1 night to sleep. My sleep came back exactly as you described. Minutes to half hours, half hours to hours..I am getting about 5 to 6 hours now and am extremely grateful.. before the withdraw I would have felt deprived with only 5 to 6 hous since I have always been one that loves my sleep and I demanded at least 8 hours..The only pill I now take is my thyroid med..I want to start exercising as I truly believe you know what you are talking about. I made an appointment 4 months ago ( the wait is that long ) to get a shock in the ear to quit smoking. The date just happens to be this tues.I have to fly to st. louis as this is the only place in u.s. to do it. Geez, if this works I will be completely free from any substance having some control over me..Suppose to have a 95% success rate..I found out about it on 20/20....I am so exicted. When I made the appointment I thought hey it might help me with the methadone also, I never thought I would be off of it before the appt. Gods plan for me was different then my own..So much thanks to you for all your knowledge..I am sure you will be needed on this board time and time again..hope you never get tired of helping people.Noone around me could imagine what I was going through. I wished I found this board early in my withdraws. I actually found myself on a pro mehadone board with people telling me to stay on it. It was completely safe on al body organs..Is the brain an organ..lol...Guess it isn't as important to them as it is to me.sorry post is so long..I am off to get my SLEPP>>hehe

Ha, yeh, why do people forget it's an organ and not just a bunch of emotions/feelings/thoughts? It's the grand master of the body, regulating things like our heartbeat and breathing....is it any wonder how meds screw with those things? Screw with the brain, and you screw with the body. For an example, when I've visited other boards, I have heard people on antidepressants complain about heart-racing and lack of satisfying breath after they would start the AD and still not get it. I'd even point out that those things are listed side effects. And as we know, the liver and kidneys bear the burden's of processing the drugs. So you are not alone in your wondering why people do not take their brain seriously in matters of the health of the body!

I don't recall corresponding with you but I am so happy I could help!!! I'm also glad to hear your sleep has come back. I've been told and also it has been my experience as well that it will continue to improve, even if it takes months/years. It will reach whatever level is required for health, whether it be 6 hours, 7 or 8. Everybody is different in the amount of sleep they need and it changes as people get older....my mother-in-law said since she got older, her average is 4 1/2 to 5 hours a night but it is enough and she feels good. Usually most of us need 7 hours in adulthood although 6 hours a night is considered normal sleep.

I'm so happy for your sleep victory! And yes, the exercise will help as we know in all areas of health, it will keep your blood pressure down and more.

Good luck with quiting smoking, oh boy, there's something that slowly killed my uncle over many years so I hope that technique works for you; I never heard of it but it sounds promising being on such a program as 20/20. I will keep trying to help people from time to time; now, with your experience you can easily do the same.... I truly believe that people can win this thing, no amount of lawsuits against drug companies concerning the negative effects/promises of psychoactive drugs will have the same power as people spreading the word of how unhealthy and damaging the drugs have been for them.

We also have to be grateful to such people and professionals who speak out like Anne Tracy, Peter Breggin, Joseph Glenmullen, Heather Ashton and other professionals/websites who help explain these drugs. Sometimes they do come on too strong but if you can look past that and really read what they know, it becomes clear that any drug that is a mind/mood drug has dangers, illegal and legal!

hi jennita i read all your posts and let me tell you are so well educated on this subject and i don't mean this in a sarcastic way but you should write a book i am so amazed at all the information you've written i can't even begin to tell you how much i've learned just from you and howard corresponding back and forth i know i've thanked you guys over and over but i just can't say enough to you my eyes have been opened to yet another drug i was so nieve to again thanks and i'm glad you stay on the board to keep informing people of the harm that these drugs can cause kelleigh :angel:

Kelleigh,

Sorry I was not on yesterday, but my ISP was down all evening. Thank you for the encouragement. You beat methodone, great, just hope you tread softly with the Klonopin.

Jennita,

Was funny in my case, Xanax was a good sleep aid for at least a year with no tolerance building. Valium was a much better one but only for a month. It has some real strong sedating effects for a while which, like some said on a forum, subside in about a month. I deal with withdrawal symptoms but am not sure how much is related to cuts, how much to tolerance, guess there is no way to differentiate and thus know. I am glad the lady was trying to work. I have done it with little or no sleep. Some of us, unfortunately, when it comes to that will have to go down swinging if we go down at all in that regard. I have read of people that could not answer the telephone or door while tapering. Well in my case, there would be no telephone to not answer, no door either unless it be that of my automobile but when a cop is knocking with a flashlight, you got to answer, benzo withdrawals or not.

As to SSRIs, not interested here, too risky, and they often speed people up which is the last thing I need.

Kelleigh,

Sorry I was not on yesterday, but my ISP was down all evening. Thank you for the encouragement. You beat methodone, great, just hope you tread softly with the Klonopin.

Jennita,

Was funny in my case, Xanax was a good sleep aid for at least a year with no tolerance building. Valium was a much better one but only for a month. It has some real strong sedating effects for a while which, like some said on a forum, subside in about a month. I deal with withdrawal symptoms but am not sure how much is related to cuts, how much to tolerance, guess there is no way to differentiate and thus know. I am glad the lady was trying to work. I have done it with little or no sleep. Some of us, unfortunately, when it comes to that will have to go down swinging if we go down at all in that regard. I have read of people that could not answer the telephone or door while tapering. Well in my case, there would be no telephone to not answer, no door either unless it be that of my automobile but when a cop is knocking with a flashlight, you got to answer, benzo withdrawals or not.

As to SSRIs, not interested here, too risky, and they often speed people up which is the last thing I need.
howard thats ok one question whats is an isp ? you're welcome for th encouragement and the klonopin i'm not taking the prescribed dose hopefully that will be in my favor hope you're well talk to you soon kelleigh :angel: :)

howard i know i'm a pain in the but but my dr visit yesterday they told me i deinitly have an underlying anxiety disorder i know your not a doctoe but how do they know its not from the methadone the told me it's social anxiety disorder and i'm asking you because i know you may have some other answers this whole klonopin thing just freaks me out i've actually cut back on the dose though and have noticed i get a bit anxious would that be from a w/d or is it to soon for that sorry to be a pain talk later kelleigh :)

howard i know i'm a pain in the but but my dr visit yesterday they told me i deinitly have an underlying anxiety disorder i know your not a doctoe but how do they know its not from the methadone the told me it's social anxiety disorder and i'm asking you because i know you may have some other answers this whole klonopin thing just freaks me out i've actually cut back on the dose though and have noticed i get a bit anxious would that be from a w/d or is it to soon for that sorry to be a pain talk later kelleigh :)

One question: did you have the same problems/symptoms before the methadone? I mean actual symptoms, not life/emotional issues. If not, then it's not underlying, it's drug-induced. This underlying stuff is the same bull-puckey as the magical "unmasked" condition that happens when on a med.

For example, as howard mentioned, SSri's have the tendency to speed people up; if you get a bit too speedy it could resemble a manic episode, in which case the doctor will say the person was probably bi-polar all along and the SSRi simply "unmasked" the condition. Well, I wonder what was masking it before and why not just stop the substance that did the unmasking.........thereby lets just throw that mask back on, you know? Instead, they decide that they must now medicate the unmasked conditon with more drugs, this time it's for life.

So apparentely, people can be going around with such an illness as bi-polar and have no symptoms at all intil the introduction of an SSRi? That's plain retarded if you ask me and why would anyone buy into it......well, I'm sure they comb the person's past and manage to find some behavior or reaction to a life situation that fits their very broad criteria since mental disorders seem to have a zillion layers/degrees and almost any unsocial/acceptable behavior or habit may be able to be scrutinized as abnormal.

I'm sure there are legitamite mental cases out there, but in reality they are very rare. I believe some are drug (legal or illegal) induced, starvation or a trauma induced event from what I've read. Certainly, some disorders are not really disorders but reactions to life and hardships.....remove the hardships and the disorder is gone (unfortunately, some hardships are here to stay and sometimes we need to relearn how to react to life and expectations).

Social Anxiety is not uncommon since people have changed in these times. Most people are not trustworthy or truthful. Some are vengeful, violent, judgemental or downright mean. Some people expect way too much of others and like to make fun of others to boost their own egos. Of course, there are good souls still out there but weeding them out is very difficult. So no wonder there is such a thing as social anxiety, but I think it's more a social disease than a person disease!

But now everyone and their brother is on a med for this thing or that, and every problem, life situation or emotional feeling becomes a disorder. This is very profitable for the psychiatric and drug communities.

So, they are selling something..... now the question is, are you buying?

No patience,

"Social Anxiety Disorder" is the new catch all for about anything then follow the SSRIs or God forbid benzos. Anyone dealing with drug withdrawal faces anxiety. Is why the alcoholic does not want to come out of their house for a week (just a week, they are very blessed) until they are detoxed and felling better. I had a level of anxiety when I was first prescribed Xanax but I was in a tough job situation that I have long sense been away from. It was also prescribed for sleep. Well, I did not know the meaning of the word "anxiety" until I tried to come off Xanax. Feelings never before imagined. Drug withdrawal, and no one, M.D. or not, will ever succeed in pinning one of these new psychiatric labels on me. I know what is going on. That is my experience. As to yours, you must decide for yourself.

jennita and howard i did have a social thing before i was on methadone could never be around to many people i moved around alot as a kid and spent most of my life making new friends and then losing them needless to say i was shy of alot of social situations that i do remember even if it meant going to an aunt or uncles house for dinner i just did'nt want to go i was to embarassed and hated being the center of attention in any situation even if it was my how you've grown or whatever it maybe so as time moved on i still suffered in social situations like my husband would want me to go to dinner with his side of the family and i would dread it and make every excuse not to go but then i went on methadone lets just say it made me a totally different person i could talk to anyone any where any time go to any function you name it i was there i don't know if that is social anxiety or just the person i am i hate this situation because i feel like i'm going crazy do i have anxiety or don't i i know you can't answer that but this whole situation just seems like its never ending now i can barely even go out of my house anymore for work yeah i hate even going to my sisters or brothers house i have so many issues and have been looking to you 2 for guidance because you both are so well educated in this area and about the buying and the selling i have'nt purchased any thing yet with all i've read on these boards and all i've been through with drs i 'm losing complete faith in them thank you guys for caring enough to warn me though you guys have been great talk later kelleigh :yawn: :confused:i completly understand where you guys are coming from though it's awful they make a pill for everything i wish i was'nt so nieve to all them when ifirst started methadone for my chronic pain :blob_fire

<<I'm sure there are legitamite mental cases out there, but in reality they are very rare.>>

I`ve heard this affirmation before but personally think there are a lot of people that need to be on meds, that or institutionalized, and have real problems with people on the net writing with an aire of scientific authority (not saying you are one) strongly implying or downright telling people they do not know from Adam to drop all meds, this based on drug company conspiracy theories. I would not be surprised if some, if not many deaths have occured as a result. How many that just up and go away from the boards are now in the ground? Though there may be some profit driven motives when it comes to SSRIs, but hardly with benzos as the patents have long run out and people typically get dirt cheap generics.

The insane has been with us in abundance since the beginning of recorded history. I have observed them in action, bi-polar and the like, it`s far out, and all I can think of right now claimed the condition pre-existed the meds. One may debate cause and effect, but if the truth be known, there is mystery here. I think most doctors would admit this but if it comes down to suicide or strong meds, an institution or experiment with meds, perhaps let the doctors do their jobs and try the meds. I dare not toy with their conditions, out of my league. Though I know there is a lot of over-prescribing and too little non-drug therapy. The disclaimers that go with these forums should be truly heeded and not viewed as simply a CYA...

Kelleigh,

IMO, an internet diagnosis is not always the best idea, unless you have the ability to seperate the wheat, the chaff, and the questionable and apply what is needed to your situation. And just thinking about these messes all day, reading in these forums, etc. can create alot of problems of their own. I know what I was like before the Xanax and I am trying to get back there, slowly but surely. It is going to hurt. Withdrawal from addictive drugs hurts. But keeping a positive outlook and avoiding anger and despair, or people that enourage such, is a plus. I am no stranger to either, but have realized I cannot afford those luxuries at this time.

What you describe does not sound like insanity to me. But you did mention that you had suicidal idealizations so I thus defer to the professionals, though such thoughts in and of themselves would not necessarily make one insane I do not think.

I have always had some difficulty in intimate social situations, but love large gatherings, crowds, and exciting, never a dull moment work around people. That is me. I live with it, may improve some over time. But I do not need meds.

I suggest looking for some real hope, something much bigger than you will find from any human being. Small steps may turn into giant ones, and doubt may gradually transform into faith. I recommend NA Meetings, right up your alley as you kicked methodone, plus the Hazelden website is good. Getting around people, people you relate to, that can actually hear, see, and even hug you may be a huge help. This all takes action on your part. It is up to you. I had to seek the right sort of support for me, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I have a little bit, need more, will get it. Shut down the computer and go after it friend. :-)

oh yea,

ISP: Internet Service Provider

<<i know you may have some other answers this whole klonopin thing just freaks me out i've actually cut back on the dose though and have noticed i get a bit anxious would that be from a w/d or is it to soon for that sorry to be a pain talk later kelleigh>>

You may be worrying too much. Heather Ashton says not to worry. I agree. Easier said than done, but work on it. Drug addiction is a pain and fear of the unknown is of the worst sort. Did we analyze every feeling, every ache and pain before drug addiction and reading all of the various opinions and experiences on the internet? Of course not. Fear can create symptoms or make moderate to mild anxiety (from drug withdrawal) much worse. Me, I have to take the bull by the horns, every day. I think it is important for you to get involved in your own recovery. Klonopin is a short term solution because of tolerance building. Stevie Knicks got up to 72 a day and still had no relief. But for now, why toy around with it? Either take it as prescribed or work out a tapering off schedule with your doctor. If you do not trust this doctor, find another one.

howard thank you for the advice it makes alot of sense maybe i do think being on these boards everyday are going to solve my problems that why i'm on it some much but i'm definitly gonna take the advice on the website you gave me and see if there are some groups for my condition all i do is come on these boards because i know i can say things and not embarrass my self and i like to tryto help the people going through opiate w/d because mine was so bad and i just want to try help ease it for them i did have totally faith in my phsychiatrist but now knowing about klonopin i wonder if she knows what she's doing thanks for all your help kelleigh :angel:

i'm always on the computer but don't know much about them chat soon kelleigh not all that computer literate (this reply goes to the definition of isp)

<<i know you may have some other answers this whole klonopin thing just freaks me out i've actually cut back on the dose though and have noticed i get a bit anxious would that be from a w/d or is it to soon for that sorry to be a pain talk later kelleigh>>

You may be worrying too much. Heather Ashton says not to worry. I agree. Easier said than done, but work on it. Drug addiction is a pain and fear of the unknown is of the worst sort. Did we analyze every feeling, every ache and pain before drug addiction and reading all of the various opinions and experiences on the internet? Of course not. Fear can create symptoms or make moderate to mild anxiety (from drug withdrawal) much worse. Me, I have to take the bull by the horns, every day. I think it is important for you to get involved in your own recovery. Klonopin is a short term solution because of tolerance building. Stevie Knicks got up to 72 a day and still had no relief. But for now, why toy around with it? Either take it as prescribed or work out a tapering off schedule with your doctor. If you do not trust this doctor, find another one.

<<i know you may have some other answers this whole klonopin thing just freaks me out i've actually cut back on the dose though and have noticed i get a bit anxious would that be from a w/d or is it to soon for that sorry to be a pain talk later kelleigh>>

You may be worrying too much. Heather Ashton says not to worry. I agree. Easier said than done, but work on it. Drug addiction is a pain and fear of the unknown is of the worst sort. Did we analyze every feeling, every ache and pain before drug addiction and reading all of the various opinions and experiences on the internet? Of course not. Fear can create symptoms or make moderate to mild anxiety (from drug withdrawal) much worse. Me, I have to take the bull by the horns, every day. I think it is important for you to get involved in your own recovery. Klonopin is a short term solution because of tolerance building. Stevie Knicks got up to 72 a day and still had no relief. But for now, why toy around with it? Either take it as prescribed or work out a tapering off schedule with your doctor. If you do not trust this doctor, find another one.

Howard, do you have a link or some key words on the story concerning Stevie Knicks? I read one but it didn't mention how much she got up to in the one I read, I can't believe it was that high and she still had tolerance, wow!

Kelligh, you can't beat yourself up about the methadone because physical pain is something that needs to be addressed; people get into accidents or injuries calls for some pain control intil they heal; nobody expects someone to live with severe pain. But they should have not cold-turkeyed you off it should be tapered properly but that doesn't always happen since they don't take the drugs that seriously...if a person isn't wildly abusing them, or on some illegal drug like cocaine, they don't think there should be much problems. I don't quite understand this, other than maybe they think just because it's controlled by prescription? Sometimes severe pain calls for larger doses and that is when it gets harder to come off of it.

i know how you feel about the prickly stuff and anxiety i am on klonopin as welll do you see floaters in your eyes?

<<I'm sure there are legitamite mental cases out there, but in reality they are very rare.>>

I`ve heard this affirmation before but personally think there are a lot of people that need to be on meds, that or institutionalized, and have real problems with people on the net writing with an aire of scientific authority (not saying you are one) strongly implying or downright telling people they do not know from Adam to drop all meds, this based on drug company conspiracy theories. I would not be surprised if some, if not many deaths have occured as a result. How many that just up and go away from the boards are now in the ground? Though there may be some profit driven motives when it comes to SSRIs, but hardly with benzos as the patents have long run out and people typically get dirt cheap generics.

The insane has been with us in abundance since the beginning of recorded history. I have observed them in action, bi-polar and the like, it`s far out, and all I can think of right now claimed the condition pre-existed the meds. One may debate cause and effect, but if the truth be known, there is mystery here. I think most doctors would admit this but if it comes down to suicide or strong meds, an institution or experiment with meds, perhaps let the doctors do their jobs and try the meds. I dare not toy with their conditions, out of my league. Though I know there is a lot of over-prescribing and too little non-drug therapy. The disclaimers that go with these forums should be truly heeded and not viewed as simply a CYA...

Yes, I do agree. I would never tell someone to get off meds if they have a severe case of bi-polar or schizophrenia. But my point was, those conditions are pretty rare compared to the amount of people being given pills for life situations, poor health habit, stress, grief, etc. My poor mother-in-law, as I mentioned before, was hounded over her "tiredness" at age 76 to take SSRi's and even her former doctor scared her up when her husband died many years ago, saying that she couldn't survive it without Prozac. Lucky she wasn't one for pills or by now I'm sure she'd be on many and labeled as mentally ill.

You know, since you mention bi-polar, I've read about some celebrity cases where although symptoms were present before meds, there had been a psychoactive drug history, sometimes illegal or legal. I wonder if there is a connection to them and also alcohol seems to be in the history too. I know people like Carrie Fisher, Robert DowneyJr., Margot Kidder and Patty Duke had drug histories before the diagnoisis and subsequent drug treatments for bi-polar. I read an article where Margot Kidder was on drug treatments for her bipolar and simply got worse; she decided to get off her meds and instead go to a doctor specializing in amino acid treatments and it was quite successful for her. I also read where some research indicated B-vitamins were helping cure schizophrenia. This all makes sense to me because I read that when protein digests, assisted by carbs and vitamins, , it breaks down into amino acids. If you look up amino acid charts, they all seem to be involved in creating neurotransmitters, vital for mental health!

All that makes me wonder if there are better ways for the truly mentally ill other than toxic drugs. I realize in severe cases, they don't have time to fool around and the drugs definately are needed as some sort of control factor to save the person's life or others who might be in danger of those people. But I really think they don't spend enough research on exploring the other options....which I imagine are not as profitable, however, as drugs so maybe that's why the mainstream psychiatric doesn't go after such options.

Drug treatment can still end up in disaster, look at Andrea Yates. One of the Columbine shooters was on Luvox, which can cause manic reactions and suicidial idealizations. Even if the Luvox didn't play a part in his thinking(which many believe it did), at the very least we can say the drug failed to do it's job in keeping the boy somewhat sane.

Anyway, my whole point at the beginning was the drugs are prescribed often to too many people who may not be mentally ill at all; but these uncertain drugs are perfectly capable of creating mental illness over time...

Yes, I do agree. I would never tell someone to get off meds if they have a severe case of bi-polar or schizophrenia. But my point was, those conditions are pretty rare compared to the amount of people being given pills for life situations, poor health habit, stress, grief, etc. My poor mother-in-law, as I mentioned before, was hounded over her "tiredness" at age 76 to take SSRi's and even her former doctor scared her up when her husband died many years ago, saying that she couldn't survive it without Prozac. Lucky she wasn't one for pills or by now I'm sure she'd be on many and labeled as mentally ill.

You know, since you mention bi-polar, I've read about some celebrity cases where although symptoms were present before meds, there had been a psychoactive drug history, sometimes illegal or legal. I wonder if there is a connection to them and also alcohol seems to be in the history too. I know people like Carrie Fisher, Robert DowneyJr., Margot Kidder and Patty Duke had drug histories before the diagnoisis and subsequent drug treatments for bi-polar. I read an article where Margot Kidder was on drug treatments for her bipolar and simply got worse; she decided to get off her meds and instead go to a doctor specializing in amino acid treatments and it was quite successful for her. I also read where some research indicated B-vitamins were helping cure schizophrenia. This all makes sense to me because I read that when protein digests, assisted by carbs and vitamins, , it breaks down into amino acids. If you look up amino acid charts, they all seem to be involved in creating neurotransmitters, vital for mental health!

All that makes me wonder if there are better ways for the truly mentally ill other than toxic drugs. I realize in severe cases, they don't have time to fool around and the drugs definately are needed as some sort of control factor to save the person's life or others who might be in danger of those people. But I really think they don't spend enough research on exploring the other options....which I imagine are not as profitable, however, as drugs so maybe that's why the mainstream psychiatric doesn't go after such options.

Drug treatment can still end up in disaster, look at Andrea Yates. One of the Columbine shooters was on Luvox, which can cause manic reactions and suicidial idealizations. Even if the Luvox didn't play a part in his thinking(which many believe it did), at the very least we can say the drug failed to do it's job in keeping the boy somewhat sane.

Anyway, my whole point at the beginning was the drugs are prescribed often to too many people who may not be mentally ill at all; but these uncertain drugs are perfectly capable of creating mental illness over time...

It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.

You've got it by the tail now. From here on it is a choice.

i know how you feel about the prickly stuff and anxiety i am on klonopin as welll do you see floaters in your eyes?
amye i hated the prickly stuff it sucked but what do you mean by floaters in your eyes i also hated to constant panic over nothing not many people know what i'm talking about when i say prickly skin it's good to know some one finally knows what i'm talking about :)

Howard, do you have a link or some key words on the story concerning Stevie Knicks? I read one but it didn't mention how much she got up to in the one I read, I can't believe it was that high and she still had tolerance, wow!

Kelligh, you can't beat yourself up about the methadone because physical pain is something that needs to be addressed; people get into accidents or injuries calls for some pain control intil they heal; nobody expects someone to live with severe pain. But they should have not cold-turkeyed you off it should be tapered properly but that doesn't always happen since they don't take the drugs that seriously...if a person isn't wildly abusing them, or on some illegal drug like cocaine, they don't think there should be much problems. I don't quite understand this, other than maybe they think just because it's controlled by prescription? Sometimes severe pain calls for larger doses and that is when it gets harder to come off of it.
i know they should'nt have c/ted me i know that's alot of the reason i'm still so messed up methadone w/d is pretty severe and you're right about the higher doses that's one of the reasons i decided to come off it although when i finally hit the right amount it alleviated every bit of pain i had i strongly believe if some one is one a high dose of methadone (which 50 is not high compared to what the methadone clinic gives out) and they take that away c/t it does damage specifically brain chemical i know i have underlying issues but coming off this had made it much worse and even though i'm on lexapro and klonopin i don't feel normal anymore and 3 months later i feel like methadone w/d took apart of me with it i know i'm going on and on but this is why i'm so worried about klonopin now and all the other crap i'm on and i guess that's why i do beat myself up alot because methadone w/d has put so much fear in me i don't know what my problem is anymore that's why when the dr told me social anxiety i probably did buy into it a little just to ease my mind and say ok you're not crazy sorry so long and probably did'nt make alot of sense but that's where i'm at right now thanks again you and howard have been great kelleigh :angel: :wave:

Jennita,

Sorry I missed the Stevie Knicks question. The number is 72 but forgot the potency. swear I cannot remember where I read it. Try Stevie Knicks, Klonopin. Will look more later, just got a bunch to do put on my plate...

Windysan,

She cannot be a pure Nimmo-ite as she is for some natural remedies, which are called "quack remedies" on Ray`s site and discussion of them is not allowed.

Jennita,

Sorry I missed the Stevie Knicks question. The number is 72 but forgot the potency. swear I cannot remember where I read it. Try Stevie Knicks, Klonopin. Will look more later, just got a bunch to do put on my plate...

Windysan,

She cannot be a pure Nimmo-ite as she is for some natural remedies, which are called "quack remedies" on Ray`s site and discussion of them is not allowed.
howard what is a nimmo-ite? just curious

Jennita,

Sorry I missed the Stevie Knicks question. The number is 72 but forgot the potency. swear I cannot remember where I read it. Try Stevie Knicks, Klonopin. Will look more later, just got a bunch to do put on my plate...

Windysan,

She cannot be a pure Nimmo-ite as she is for some natural remedies, which are called "quack remedies" on Ray`s site and discussion of them is not allowed.
howard when i looked up klonopin under ask je---- i found the stevie nicks story it was either klonopin or klonopin w/d can't be 100% sure kelleigh :wave:

Kelleigh,

You are my role model as well friend. Read your other thread. You also are working, and unlike me, you are dealing with severe chronic back pain. You know I was just concerned about the Klonopin as I know how tough these withdrawals can be. In a nutshell, the nervous system just cannot take much stress until the body adjusts to not having the drugs. You do not want to know about it. So take heart and be of good cheer. I am just an everyday person like you.

thanks howard that means alot i consider you a friend to i needed to hear that as for being a role model thank you for that to and thanks for every thing you've been great all your info and advice has helped me so much i can't thank you enough :) kelleigh

me again howard what thread did you want me to read not sure there are so manyof me whininglol kelleigh :D

It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.

Whoo there howard,

Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need..... :nono:

Jennita,

Sorry I missed the Stevie Knicks question. The number is 72 but forgot the potency. swear I cannot remember where I read it. Try Stevie Knicks, Klonopin. Will look more later, just got a bunch to do put on my plate...

Windysan,

She cannot be a pure Nimmo-ite as she is for some natural remedies, which are called "quack remedies" on Ray`s site and discussion of them is not allowed.

Hey, I am very appreciative of Ray's site as it gives so much information including Ashton's Manual and many other professionals' articles. I think his heart is in the right place.....HOWEVER.....that really doesn't mean I think any one person's opinion of anything is gospel. Nobody has all the answers.

I actually haven't read the quack-remedies section on his site (I'll get to it). I am not for natural "remedies" per se; I believe when you put nutritious, beneficial things in your body, it will be able to do it's job, whether it be recovering from drugs or fighting infections, etc. But some claims of this or that herb/supplement can be inflated. I think it's not one or two things that a "cure" make....it's a combination of things that simply help your body do what it's designed to do.

Treat your body right and it will treat you right is sort of what I'm saying....filling it with unnessary or toxic substances or neglecting intake of what it needs will surely bring on trouble. Of course, we know even the healthiest lifestyles will not guarentee you won't get disease...such is life....but statistics prove that people who don't drink, don't take alot of pharmaceuticals, don't endulge in illegal drugs, eat healthy, exercise, etc. are more likely to avoid severe health problems.

Anyway, I can forgive any assumptions you or the other poster may have about me since it's just that....assumption. For example, in the past, other posters have assumed I'm all about herbs, although the only herb I had ever mentioned (as only helpful at best) is chammomile tea. For some reason, if you are anti-drug, you must surely be pro-herb?

Also, it was assumed I was anti-medical establishment, some silly poster once told me they hoped my kids didn't get diabetes! As if that happened, I wouldn't seek treatment? My god, I'd be at the doctor's office so fast it would make your head spin!

I took my kids to the doctor for everything; my daughter ended up having eye-muscle surgery for amblyopia and strambismus when she was a toddler...not once did I doubt her doctor and I knew she would be blind in one eye if I didn't. I actually am indebted to the medical community because my daughter has her full sight........

So, I am used to assumptions about me. I guess there might be some anti-drug people who shun all medical treatments so I can see where there would be some assuming being done.

I just think prevention is best, and also that some of the new alternative treatments for disease do show alot of promise since sometimes drugs do fail or maybe cause complications that further the bad health of some people. A good example, because of my uncles' lung problems from smoking, he was put on predinsone, which causes known side effects as diabetes and lack of healing/ability to fight infection. He got both. THe irony here is, he didn't die from emphysema, lung cancer or even the diabetes caused by the predinsone. He died from an infection; his body couldn't fight it even with the antibiotics. So, indirectly, predinsone killed him. It's not predinsone's fault he smoked. But, it is all very ironic.

Developing alternatives to strong medications may someday prevent this sort of thing we hope.

I am anti-drugs for the mood/mind, and mainly peeved about all the massive prescribing to what I'd say are, though troubled, normal, not mentally ill people. But I'm not anti-medical establishment nor a tree-hugging, herbal- loving hippy.

My apologies to the tree-hugging herbal-loving hippie since everyone is entitled to love any living thing they want.

You've got it by the tail now. From here on it is a choice.

Jumping in here.................
I agree with you Windy..............to expect tapering for addicts is very hard - but has to be done for benzos because of the nature of its action on the brain. But I loathed the anti medic attitudes! Appalling. Counter productive. Hence the cult like status.
BUT - I think Ashton is very credible and her research is authentic. She is one tough lady and continues to do battle with our Health Minister in the UK for the treatment of benzo addicts wanting to come off. Personally I think her Manual is an absol must for someone trying to get off benzos.
But the rest.............. the mods......................... whew! But the man himself I have time for - unfortunately I think he may be ill now. Too too much ...........nothing else in his life but his forum?
What do you think?

Who the hell said Dubya? Isnt he the guy who is trying to stop Michael Moore pull the plug on the Bush/bin Laden family joint business industries - joint owners of an armaments factory in US. binLadens sold their stock on 9/12! ho ho ho. Dubya has vetoed it - but it will be shown at the Cannes and Toronto film festivals! Prepare to be shocked America - yet again!
hey - have to give the Pressie some standing - he is a reformed alkie and druggie!
Mise

Whoo there howard,

Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need..... :nono:

LOL Jennita based on your internet personality you are obviously good people and understand that I am not trying to be mean spirited, only to stimulate discussion. I do not disagree with one word you have written above. No one will get away with labeling me mentally ill due to benzo withdrawals. I know what is going on.

And on another point you made to another poster... I am grateful to Ray Nimmo for posting the Ashton Manual on the net, or perhaps I would have thought I was losing my mind with all the symptoms. And, no doubt, it would not have been hard to find a shrink to validate that. But in case you did not know, Ray`s forum and the Ashton Manual are not one in the same. This is not something I have merely deduced, they will come right out and tell you, "we do not agree with every word she wrote." From there follows many new and some inconsistent claims. These usually fall under the heading of "our collective experiences," and for me, were often the tougher sells...

I have chosen to leave the site for the time being, maybe permanently as I could have already been kicked out again as my typed words at times seemed to be interpreted as attacks, but I was only testing the iron, put some fire on and see what is left and how solid it is, trying to learn. Part of a process, not intended as personal, is the way I was raised and trained throughout my education.

I do wish them well, but cannot handle reading some of the horror stories at the moment. Plus what I need more than anything right now is coaching on non-drug means for trying to stay calm. My nervous system is vulnerable and there seems to be a clear coorelation between symptoms and stress triggers. I have found some people from that forum that help in that area and I communicate with them through other means. You might have some ideas on this yourself. :)

P.S.
The Budwieser comments were hyperbole. Your distinction is valid.

<<But I'm not anti-medical establishment nor a tree-hugging, herbal- loving hippy.

My apologies to the tree-hugging herbal-loving hippie since everyone is entitled to love any living thing they want.>> Jennita

LOL Like Windysan, was only teasing here.

Jumping in here.................
I agree with you Windy..............to expect tapering for addicts is very hard - but has to be done for benzos because of the nature of its action on the brain. But I loathed the anti medic attitudes! Appalling. Counter productive. Hence the cult like status.
BUT - I think Ashton is very credible and her research is authentic. She is one tough lady and continues to do battle with our Health Minister in the UK for the treatment of benzo addicts wanting to come off. Personally I think her Manual is an absol must for someone trying to get off benzos.
But the rest.............. the mods......................... whew! But the man himself I have time for - unfortunately I think he may be ill now. Too too much ...........nothing else in his life but his forum?
What do you think?

Who the hell said Dubya? Isnt he the guy who is trying to stop Michael Moore pull the plug on the Bush/bin Laden family joint business industries - joint owners of an armaments factory in US. binLadens sold their stock on 9/12! ho ho ho. Dubya has vetoed it - but it will be shown at the Cannes and Toronto film festivals! Prepare to be shocked America - yet again!
hey - have to give the Pressie some standing - he is a reformed alkie and druggie!
Mise

Well, I will take the addict label and believe in slow tapering, am down pretty low now. I had a very stressful week and would love as the Rolling Stones put it, to "take four more of these" but the eventual consquences of that scare me more than withdrawal symptoms. Can we imagine eating 20 blue Valiums a day and still not getting relief? These are damnable drugs to be sure.

<<Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....>> Jennita

Actually, I would not be surprised if someone sues McDonalds for being fat. People are suing tobacco companies in spite of warning labels.

thanks howard that means alot i consider you a friend to i needed to hear that as for being a role model thank you for that to and thanks for every thing you've been great all your info and advice has helped me so much i can't thank you enough :) kelleigh

Kelliegh,

Just wanted you to know that I am just a fellow traveler on this road like you, am no superman. Have a difficult time working some days. And have used some sick days. It is not easy, and if I had a good option not to work I would jump on it. But some of us just have to if we possibly can. You are brave. Keep that in mind. :)

Hey Jennita,

Just ribbing you a little. I find Ray's site pretty dangerous for the true addict. I really believe that true addicts have a real hard time tapering anything. The oppressive atmosphere in that forum gave me the willies, caused me resentment, was just unhealthy for my recovery. The whole "blaming the doctor" bit is a little overdone. Heck, I knew that valium was dope at around 10-years-old. By the way...I don't do herbs anymore either...hehehehehe.

Glad to be here.

the other dubya

Yes, I agree, Ray's site really isn't for addicts. The blaming doctor thing is valid enough, at least in some cases....mine for one...because, you won't believe this but...yep....I didn't know what the Ativan was when it was prescribed to me. I'm not kidding here.

I didn't even know that the cough syrup I was prescribed for bronchitis, that started my whole questionable "symptoms" which lead to my benzo prescriptions, had codiene in it.....and when I found out, well, you will laugh at me bigtime because I did not know codiene belonged to the narcotic, or opiate family. In my defense,(?)I had an over-protective mother....

Well, I suppose as an adult I should have looked into things more. But strangely enough, throughout my whole history of doctors, I seemed to get ones that only prescribed antibiotics and had me take OTC meds. Now that I look back, that was quite unusual luck to get such conservative doctors.

When my last doctor retired, I ran into one that prescribed a whole lot more than I was used to for infection/cold. I thought it was strange, but hey, she was the doctor. As my ordeal became a domino effect of this/that drug when I actually had withdrawals from the codiene, I had to educate myself and was surprised at all I read. But it took almost a year on benzos to realize what was going on. I know I passed up Ray's site alot, thinking it was something weird and/or for addicts so I did not read it intil I was so sick I was up for anything; any info, any help. I was very desparately ill.

Now, although no expert, I do know a bit about psychoactive drugs to say the least and save alot of newstories on my computer about them.

Oh well, no hard feelings about our postings here at any rate. I "get" the people on that site of Ray's because of my experience, but I'm also "getting " what you and howard are saying too.... I'm not taking sides on this at all. Some people do have other issues besides benzos. I know in some cases, benzos are not the only blame or factor. Sometimes I get a bit obsessed about this drug issue, due to anger of needless suffering, but I realize it also has to be put in perspective as the main goal here is to help and inform, not attack.

Glad you are here too!!!!! :)

LOL Jennita based on your internet personality you are obviously good people and understand that I am not trying to be mean spirited, only to stimulate discussion. I do not disagree with one word you have written above. No one will get away with labeling me mentally ill due to benzo withdrawals. I know what is going on.

And on another point you made to another poster... I am grateful to Ray Nimmo for posting the Ashton Manual on the net, or perhaps I would have thought I was losing my mind with all the symptoms. And, no doubt, it would not have been hard to find a shrink to validate that. But in case you did not know, Ray`s forum and the Ashton Manual are not one in the same. This is not something I have merely deduced, they will come right out and tell you, "we do not agree with every word she wrote." From there follows many new and some inconsistent claims. These usually fall under the heading of "our collective experiences," and for me, were often the tougher sells...

I have chosen to leave the site for the time being, maybe permanently as I could have already been kicked out again as my typed words at times seemed to be interpreted as attacks, but I was only testing the iron, put some fire on and see what is left and how solid it is, trying to learn. Part of a process, not intended as personal, is the way I was raised and trained throughout my education.

I do wish them well, but cannot handle reading some of the horror stories at the moment. Plus what I need more than anything right now is coaching on non-drug means for trying to stay calm. My nervous system is vulnerable and there seems to be a clear coorelation between symptoms and stress triggers. I have found some people from that forum that help in that area and I communicate with them through other means. You might have some ideas on this yourself. :)

P.S.
The Budwieser comments were hyperbole. Your distinction is valid.

Yes, no hard feelings here. I did find a mix at the site of very helpful, encourging people and then there were those who fought alot and seemed more into complaining. I don't know if I told you, but the group I was in is not the one on Ray's site but an older one supported by a popular search engine I guess we can't name here. It was linked to his site, I haven't been to his site lately so I don't know if the link still exists but the group does.

Later on, it seems Ray formed his own discussion board on his site. The old group helped me so tremendeously I can't describe it. Good people there at the time, some who had worked at the clinics for benzos there in England. I think many of them have moved on. I signed on to the new boards at Ray's but it did seem quite different so I didn't participate very long.

The horror stories have to be told, yet like you said, if you already know what's going on, sometimes the endless freaking out stories can really be counterproductive. If one knows they suffer from benzo illness, that's the most important thing to learn......being subjected to endless ranting/horrors probably does not help an already stressful situation. Support and reassurance that one is not crazy or dying, that it's just the drugs, is most helpful and also any tips on dealing with the whole thing. I actually did benefit from chammomile tip someone gave me; also the tylenol and calcium too. But nothing was a magic bullet; however, I was grateful when things did help.

Well, I will take the addict label and believe in slow tapering, am down pretty low now. I had a very stressful week and would love as the Rolling Stones put it, to "take four more of these" but the eventual consquences of that scare me more than withdrawal symptoms. Can we imagine eating 20 blue Valiums a day and still not getting relief? These are damnable drugs to be sure.

That is a horrifying thought!!!! :eek: !!!!!!!! :eek: I got a little taste of something like that when I could take 2 mgs. Ativan( worth around 20 mgs. valium) and not only wouldn't sleep, but was bright, wide awake and sharp...not so much as a little lightheaded. That scared me enough to start looking into the drugs more...
:eek:

<<Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....>> Jennita

Actually, I would not be surprised if someone sues McDonalds for being fat. People are suing tobacco companies in spite of warning labels.

I know. Isn't that insane???? :D

You've got it by the tail now. From here on it is a choice.

Louisiana? Explains a lot! Huh?
Want to throw in my threepence worth too.
I have read posts by both Jennita and Howard for a while on another board - and agree with almost all they write. It is so good to see them both in here.
Jennita - your story is so very similar to my own - benzos from the doc cos of lack of sleep - Crikey - I had 4 babies under 6!!!! What an eejit................ then the opiates - had a bad smash and was given codeine based pain killers - never knew anything about addiction ................ so - yes - the docs bear some responsibility and I make sure I know everything there is to know now before taking anything - funnily enough rarely go to a doc's these days! But the Nimmoites are dangerous in that anti medic stance IMO.
I have watched Howard struggle with taper. Its such a bummer. I was on 2 mg of ativan and did the Ashton valium taper - took me 8 months - mind you - if the nutters had had their way I would still be tapering! I found it totally tortuous - was the worst 8 months of my life. Took my life away. No energy, pains, depression, agoraphobia, depersonalisation, walking was like walking thro thick glues..... and the rest. Nuff said.
Perhaps the Nimmo place really is only for benzoheads? No-one else? And I have to say that I would speak to the man - one on one for help - didnt take to the others ver much - bar one or two who remain firm friends to this day and we speak daily on the net or the phone. The fool lost his "real" friends and surrounded himself with sychophants.
Oh well - that is all in the past.
I am "sober" now a while - thank God, as in Windy and Jennita and Howard fast approaching - you will have the prize soon!
Good talking to you all.
I am from the "auld country" and as Chef will tell you - we are violent aggressive drunk cursers! I seem to be in good company?
OK - just leave out the violent, drunk, aggressive.
Great to see you all
Mise ata ann

Kelliegh,

Just wanted you to know that I am just a fellow traveler on this road like you, am no superman. Have a difficult time working some days. And have used some sick days. It is not easy, and if I had a good option not to work I would jump on it. But some of us just have to if we possibly can. You are brave. Keep that in mind. :)
i hear you about the not working so many people have told me to go on disability but i won't if i was bed ridden or in a wheel chair i would but like you i have to work thank you for the vote of confidence your awesome kelleigh

tell me i need to know what are these others sites you guys are talking about your peaking my curiousity. i can also understand that some people can't taper i didn't off of 50 mgs of methadone but i really wish they had because now i'm all screwed up my brain is still not balanced and just don't feel like a normal person. i thought they had to taper you off benzos i've read you can die or have seizures just curious kelleigh :dizzy:

Mise Ata Ann,

You did an 8 month taper. I am looking at about the same. Can I ask what your starting dose of Valium was? Mine was 30 mgs. Cut 5 right off with no problems, from there have cut either 1 mg or 1.25 mgs every week or two depending on how I feel. Am down to 12.5 mgs in 4 months + 1 week.

By the way, on the site we are discussing, you can no longer PM an administrator for tapering support or even ask for them in the open forum. New Rules. All you can do is start a thread. So if you want to grab a mentor, it cannot be one of them. No guarantee they will even enter the thread.

You are an inspiration. Got three of you here now that have beaten the pills and have plenty of time under your belt. I relate to most of your tapering symptoms. But I swear that I usually find a coorelation between stress and my symptoms. My work of it`s very nature is very confrontational, and my employer thrives on power plays, intimidation, and pressure. In the thick of it I experience symptoms and it can take hours to calm down once it cranks up. And even alone, if I fall into worry symptoms appear or magnify. What before would have been just a real pain in the butt now manifests itself in real physical problems and exaggerated anxiety. This is a product of the comprimised nervous system Ashton describes so well. So in theory if one could change their personality to that of James Bond they may have a pretty easy ride. But unforutnately that is the movies and we are not machines. Yet I am still doing all I can to keep "cool." This means new ways of thinking and reacting, a process and a journey. Thanks for the encourgement. :)

P.S. It is this truth of the comprimised nervous system that the medical community is largely ignorant about and thus the misdiagnosises.

That is a horrifying thought!!!! :eek: !!!!!!!! :eek: I got a little taste of something like that when I could take 2 mgs. Ativan( worth around 20 mgs. valium) and not only wouldn't sleep, but was bright, wide awake and sharp...not so much as a little lightheaded. That scared me enough to start looking into the drugs more...
:eek:

Myself, had nights when I took 2 mgs of Xanax = 40 mgs of Valium, wide awake, took 2 mgs more, slept but awake in 2 hours. But I still was not worried until I tried to cut down and a tornado hit...

<<As my ordeal became a domino effect of this/that drug when I actually had withdrawals from the codiene, I had to educate myself and was surprised at all I read.>> Jennita

Adequate education needs to be printed on the pharmacy inserts. I always read these. The only warning I got with my first prescription of Xanax was that "it may be habit forming if taken for longer than directed by your doctor." Even a halfway description of the potential withdrawal syndrome and the pills, which cost a mere $10, would have gone in the nearest trash can. I was not out to get high, was not on drugs, did not even drink, and had way too much to lose at the time to be taking any real chances. Even though I did find I really liked what the Xanax did, still would have ditched them had I been warned in time. Then the worst I had done was eased what woes may have come with alcohol. I know some have real trouble staying off of it, but 5 days of pain and one in the clear. May be why so many go keep going back on it, such a brief withdrawal syndrome.

tell me i need to know what are these others sites you guys are talking about your peaking my curiousity. i can also understand that some people can't taper i didn't off of 50 mgs of methadone but i really wish they had because now i'm all screwed up my brain is still not balanced and just don't feel like a normal person. i thought they had to taper you off benzos i've read you can die or have seizures just curious kelleigh :dizzy:

With your current situation there would be little point in linking you to or naming other forums, IMO. Plus it cannot be done anyway as it is against the board guidelines here. You`ll get what you need on the net here, and as I told you, as someone that kicked methadone you`d be right at home in NA.

Seizures? More common when someone drops abruptly from high doses of benzos. From what I have read, seizures in such circumstances are not necessarily probable but they are far from uncommon. That is why if someone cold turkeys off they need to take anti-seizure medications for about the first week, when the biggest slam typically comes. Cold turkey I believe should be only the last resort, when all else fails, for the benzo addict.

Hello Howard
Nice to speak to you at last.
I am just appalled at what you tell me about the forum - cant talk to an admin? Wonder if Ray has finally flipped?
And I have little time for those mods who I met during my taper - you can keep them!
Like you I started off at 30 mg valium - dropped 5 - 10 quite rapidly and then dropped in general about 2 mg per 2 weeks until I got to 15 - wee hiccup then - stuck for a bit - then resumed at 2 mg till I got to 10, 1 mg till I got to 5, 1/2 mg until I jumped at 1/2. Never looked back. I had pretty dreadful withdrawal symptoms for most of the time - but I dont need to tell you. You have read Ashton? Its all there - she is my bible! The woman has it! Hope you manage on as ever.......... I am having to dash out now - will speak again.
Must just say that yes I think the medical profession esp in the US is profoundly ignorant. Mind you Xanax maked humungous profits for pharmas and doctors - so there is your answer? IN UK we are luckier - doctors are inviting in all regular users of benzos to discuss how to get off. Its a real hot topic here all the way up to Govt. You are not so lucky. I am glad to hear you have managed to get valium. The seizure thing is true too. There is a girl in here - Rosie - who had a seizure when she was taken off just .5 mg xanax peer day. No joke? She is not on a lot just now as she has just been thro detox for opiates - but she is doing just great - but she is still to get off klonopin - she has read her Ashton - maybe you could help her?
Jennita has been a tremendous adviser to you!
Must dash - but I am here and if I can help - and I will be able to with this taper I am sure - just bellow!
Good luck, friend
Mise

you're right howard and i think more and more peolple should not sign away there right to be councelled by a pharmacist now every time i pick up any medication because i was so nieve to methadone i don't sign the little slip of paper and ask every single thing about it especially since i've been worned about klonopin(by you of course) kelleigh

Mise Ata Ann,

So glad to have your reply. :-) On your taper, am I correct in assuming that, on the last 5 mgs, you cut .5 mgs every two weeks? Were you feeling dreadful during that time? If so, would you do it the same way again? That is something that I have always had difficulty understanding. Why taper in the range of such a small dose, 5 mgs of Valium, if really suffering? It appears that for some reason or another the nervous system has not done a lot of healing/adjusting along the way for the many I have read of in that predicament. So why not jump and "let the true healing begin"? As it is called... Thanks :-)

With your current situation there would be little point in linking you to or naming other forums, IMO. Plus it cannot be done anyway as it is against the board guidelines here. You`ll get what you need on the net here, and as I told you, as someone that kicked methadone you`d be right at home in NA.

Seizures? More common when someone drops abruptly from high doses of benzos. From what I have read, seizures in such circumstances are not necessarily probable but they are far from uncommon. That is why if someone cold turkeys off they need to take anti-seizure medications for about the first week, when the biggest slam typically comes. Cold turkey I believe should be only the last resort, when all else fails, for the benzo addict.
howard i id'nt really want to go on these sites iwas just curious of what they were all about because windsy man asked if jennita was a nimmo-ite and i did'nt know if he meant that in abad way or what. hope your doing well and can't believe my very first post has come to all this 32 pages of stuff i know nothing about but i'm glad it's here because i'm gaining so much knowledge in something i did'nt realize could be so harmful i thought methadone was a bad one but reading all this is making me realize the klonopin has got to go did'nt want to listen at first because it is helping me through a rough time but what will help me when i'm coming off that ? i always thought people got addicted to benzos because they gave you some kind of euphoric feeling guess i was wrong when i first took a klonopin i was like ok how is this addicting but reading all these posts now i completly understand i thank you all for that and talk to you soon you must be so proud of your self getting off these and doing it with out the aid of any ssri i give you so much credit chat soon friend kelleigh :wave:

Yep, dope is insane. There are a lot of good folks on the Nimmo site and I do miss them. I just couldn't handle the ridiculous bickering over stupid crap. As for addicts being unable to taper.....I think that maybe some can....but not me or many others who were as strung out as I was. When you are so physically addicted to a multitude of junk then you just don't want to get dopesick. I gave tapering a try over a year's time but I failed over and over again. Maybe I'm just weak....or maybe the dope was too strong. On Nimmo's board I saw a few people like me who had no other choice than detox/rehab. They had tried to taper and failed. They were polyabusers who were strung out really bad. When they mentioned rehab(for many, including me, this was the last resort before dying) they were rebuked by many of the moderators and scared into continuing the downward spiral of abuse. For so many addicts rehab is the only way. I just had to get away from the stuff. I was on major doses of benzos and other crap when I went to detox/rehab. After a bad experience in detox(lithium, zyprexa) I went on to a nice rehab. After about 3 weeks I was fine. I didn't have any pain. I was retarded from the brain drugs for about 3 weeks but when I walked out of the lithium fog....I was in good shape. I truly wish that there was an easier, softer way. The easiest way for me was rehab. I respect those who are tapering down....God knows I wasn't tough enough.

By the way....I'm from Louisiana and here cursing is an art form. Can we curse in here? Just wondering. I won't say anything too crude but a good curse word here and there adds good color.

windysan

Sometimes a curse word does add a little flavor to conversation but it's not allowed in this forum. Sometimes when I just can't help myself, I might do this sort of thing **** **, not too effective though....

Zyprexa and Lithium? Talk about a jump into the frying pan, yikes..

Louisiana? Explains a lot! Huh?
Want to throw in my threepence worth too.
I have read posts by both Jennita and Howard for a while on another board - and agree with almost all they write. It is so good to see them both in here.
Jennita - your story is so very similar to my own - benzos from the doc cos of lack of sleep - Crikey - I had 4 babies under 6!!!! What an eejit................ then the opiates - had a bad smash and was given codeine based pain killers - never knew anything about addiction ................ so - yes - the docs bear some responsibility and I make sure I know everything there is to know now before taking anything - funnily enough rarely go to a doc's these days! But the Nimmoites are dangerous in that anti medic stance IMO.
I have watched Howard struggle with taper. Its such a bummer. I was on 2 mg of ativan and did the Ashton valium taper - took me 8 months - mind you - if the nutters had had their way I would still be tapering! I found it totally tortuous - was the worst 8 months of my life. Took my life away. No energy, pains, depression, agoraphobia, depersonalisation, walking was like walking thro thick glues..... and the rest. Nuff said.
Perhaps the Nimmo place really is only for benzoheads? No-one else? And I have to say that I would speak to the man - one on one for help - didnt take to the others ver much - bar one or two who remain firm friends to this day and we speak daily on the net or the phone. The fool lost his "real" friends and surrounded himself with sychophants.
Oh well - that is all in the past.
I am "sober" now a while - thank God, as in Windy and Jennita and Howard fast approaching - you will have the prize soon!
Good talking to you all.
I am from the "auld country" and as Chef will tell you - we are violent aggressive drunk cursers! I seem to be in good company?
OK - just leave out the violent, drunk, aggressive.
Great to see you all
Mise ata ann

Yes, our stories are simular but my sleep problem was created by the codiene. If I had known that it wouldn't have taken too long to recover from it, I would not have moved on to benzos, which I feel are much worse than narcotics for what they can do to GABA and sleep cycles. Of course, narcotics can be very severe as we have seen as well.

I always tell people to slow taper, but you are right, sometimes you can go TOO slow. It really depends, so the 10% cut every two weeks recommendation should really be only guideline, not gospel. Too slow, too fast; one has to go by what they feel I suppose.

Thanks for the kind words towards howard and I. Glad you stopped in! :)

Myself, had nights when I took 2 mgs of Xanax = 40 mgs of Valium, wide awake, took 2 mgs more, slept but awake in 2 hours. But I still was not worried until I tried to cut down and a tornado hit...

Oh god, then you DO know what I'm talking about! :dizzy:

<<As my ordeal became a domino effect of this/that drug when I actually had withdrawals from the codiene, I had to educate myself and was surprised at all I read.>> Jennita

Adequate education needs to be printed on the pharmacy inserts. I always read these. The only warning I got with my first prescription of Xanax was that "it may be habit forming if taken for longer than directed by your doctor." Even a halfway description of the potential withdrawal syndrome and the pills, which cost a mere $10, would have gone in the nearest trash can. I was not out to get high, was not on drugs, did not even drink, and had way too much to lose at the time to be taking any real chances. Even though I did find I really liked what the Xanax did, still would have ditched them had I been warned in time. Then the worst I had done was eased what woes may have come with alcohol. I know some have real trouble staying off of it, but 5 days of pain and one in the clear. May be why so many go keep going back on it, such a brief withdrawal syndrome.

Yeh, I hear you about those inserts...pretty useless most of the time. Now that the internet has so much to offer, even my elderly mother will look up any new mediction online now for the usually unmentioned potential adverse effects!

Benzos have such a long recovery/withdrawal syndrome compared to other drugs....maybe that's why most addicts/alcoholics want to go back whereas most benzo people can't stand the thought of any more benzos once they get free!

hi howard i'm taking your advice and shutting down the computer for awhile i think i'm looking to much into these boards to solve all my problems so i'm taking a vacation from cyber space i'll chat with you soon hope all is well thank you and jennita for everything i'll check in in a while and hope you'll still be here thankyou friend kelleigh

howard i id'nt really want to go on these sites iwas just curious of what they were all about because windsy man asked if jennita was a nimmo-ite and i did'nt know if he meant that in abad way or what. hope your doing well and can't believe my very first post has come to all this 32 pages of stuff i know nothing about but i'm glad it's here because i'm gaining so much knowledge in something i did'nt realize could be so harmful i thought methadone was a bad one but reading all this is making me realize the klonopin has got to go did'nt want to listen at first because it is helping me through a rough time but what will help me when i'm coming off that ? i always thought people got addicted to benzos because they gave you some kind of euphoric feeling guess i was wrong when i first took a klonopin i was like ok how is this addicting but reading all these posts now i completly understand i thank you all for that and talk to you soon you must be so proud of your self getting off these and doing it with out the aid of any ssri i give you so much credit chat soon friend kelleigh :wave:


Kelliegh,

Seems we all are in agreement here that your best line of defense in the benzo battle is Ashton. The other sites/support groups may be helpful but you need to take them with a grain of salt as we have seen. Nimmo is Ray's last name, the owner of one site, so if one was a nimmo-ite, well, I guess that means you are some sort of unholy spawn of his....ha....a joke, don't worry. Anyway, if you type in benzo withdrawal in a search, alot of informative sites will surely pop up. Major search engines are also a source of some formed support groups specific to benzos.

But it's Ashton that has the last word. Her work is truly a godsend. :angel:

Don't stay away too long! :wave:

Kelliegh,

Seems we all are in agreement here that your best line of defense in the benzo battle is Ashton. The other sites/support groups may be helpful but you need to take them with a grain of salt as we have seen. Nimmo is Ray's last name, the owner of one site, so if one was a nimmo-ite, well, I guess that means you are some sort of unholy spawn of his....ha....a joke, don't worry. Anyway, if you type in benzo withdrawal in a search, alot of informative sites will surely pop up. Major search engines are also a source of some formed support groups specific to benzos.

But it's Ashton that has the last word. Her work is truly a godsend. :angel:

Don't stay away too long! :wave:
thank you jennita i won't you two have been great hugs to you both kelleigh hope you're here when i get back

<<Seems we all are in agreement here that your best line of defense in the benzo battle is Ashton.>> Jennita

Agreed. Believe me I have looked near and far and this is the best scientific literature on the subject currently available, thorough, well documeted, responsibly worded, based on real detox protocols with 300 patients over 12 years. She also has excellent credentials.

<< can't believe my very first post has come to all this 32 pages of stuff i know nothing about but i'm glad it's here because i'm gaining so much knowledge in something i did'nt realize could be so harmful>>

Actually two birds with one stone are being killed here. One, you have been convinced to tread softly with Klonopin. Two, it has turned into a reunion of sorts of benzo people that know one another in cyberspace from way back. :-)

hi howard i'm taking your advice and shutting down the computer for awhile i think i'm looking to much into these boards to solve all my problems so i'm taking a vacation from cyber space i'll chat with you soon hope all is well thank you and jennita for everything i'll check in in a while and hope you'll still be here thankyou friend kelleigh

Kelliegh,

I did not mean like give up cyber support. I check my e-mail every day and come to this board. I more meant to also get some good outside support if you can. I said this before I knew you were working so you obviously are not holing up in the house. I think that may create problems with some over time. I personally have no outside face to face support other than my doctor whom is good. I`d like to go to NA but am not sure how they would react to taperers, plus the nearest meeting is 30 miles from me.

Off opiates and on Klonopin... You have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Sorry people, but I cannot believe the ignorance of these doctors. Want to really know about hell? Try kicking that stuff if you get addicted. Ask Stevie Knicks and many others.

Howard,
I was prescribed klonopin about 10 years ago for panic/anxiety and related disorders. At the time, I did not know how addictive it was/is. However, I've never abused it or taken more than prescribed, which is no more than 1mg at night. It doesn't worry me, and it's a low dose and has helped my life significantly. Had I known then though, about "addiction" I probably would have refused it. But I have no plans for getting off of it anytime soon. In a way though I'd like to get off, but have great trepidation. My doc despite his knowledge of other addictive behaviors thinks I should stay on it. But in the end, it's up to me and after just detoxing from suboxone, I'm not ready to do that.
M

I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.
Jennita,
Good Post. I realize I am dependent upon and would go through withdrawals from use of klonopin for a long time, but I've never crossed that line with the benzos, otherwise, my doc would have taken me off of them along time ago.
Murphy

I believe they have their place in the treatment of anxiety and sleep problems. I was rxd Valium during my divorce as my soon to be EX husband threatened to kill me our son and himself. I really don't know where I would have ended up were it not for "mothers little helpers"

And as far as the trazadone I also took it for sleep worked wonderfully told my GI Dr he could never take me off and was serious at the time but after awhile I chose to stop. No w/d problems

But not everyone responds the same you just have to try and see how it works........................

I believe they have their place in the treatment of anxiety and sleep problems. I was rxd Valium during my divorce as my soon to be EX husband threatened to kill me our son and himself. I really don't know where I would have ended up were it not for "mothers little helpers"

And as far as the trazadone I also took it for sleep worked wonderfully told my GI Dr he could never take me off and was serious at the time but after awhile I chose to stop. No w/d problems

But not everyone responds the same you just have to try and see how it works........................

The only problem I have with that is that with benzos often once you find out "how it works" it is too late... For example, Xanax worked great for me for about 16 months, never gave them a second thought. Then it stopped working and I needed more. Sure sign off addiction. If this had not happened I would never be on these boards, would still be going along contented and sedated with my new miracle drug. Testimonies like mine abound, cases are widespread and documented, and due to the character and longevity of withdrawals from these drugs I will always recommend seeking other options for combating even severe anxiety. About the only time I would recommend a benzo is if someone literally is about to commit suicide, but only as a buffer until they can get some less dangerous help.

<<Howard,
I was prescribed klonopin about 10 years ago for panic/anxiety and related disorders. At the time, I did not know how addictive it was/is. However, I've never abused it or taken more than prescribed, which is no more than 1mg at night. It doesn't worry me, and it's a low dose and has helped my life significantly. Had I known then though, about "addiction" I probably would have refused it. But I have no plans for getting off of it anytime soon. In a way though I'd like to get off, but have great trepidation. My doc despite his knowledge of other addictive behaviors thinks I should stay on it. But in the end, it's up to me and after just detoxing from suboxone, I'm not ready to do that.>> Murphy

1 mg of Klonopin is not a low dose. That is equal to 20 mgs of Valium, 1 mg of Xanax. I was stable on that very dose of Klonopin trying to taper and came off. Was back on in 3 weeks. You do not want to know what my body did while I was off. Have heard testimonies like yours, many years of use, no need to increase dose. What would happen if you tried to stop? Only one way to find out... I would recommend a switch to Valium and slow taper if you some day make that decision.

<<I realize I am dependent upon and would go through withdrawals from use of klonopin for a long time, but I've never crossed that line with the benzos, otherwise, my doc would have taken me off of them along time ago.
Murphy>>

I have heard that before. "I am not prescribing any more." Thought he was being a good doctor I suppose. The ignorance out there is very sad and frightening. It was his "prescribing" (Xanax) that set the problem up. Once informed of this in writing he changed his tune. But not hitting tolerance (needing to increase doses) does not make one immune to a withdrawal syndrome. Are many that stayed at the same dose for many years and serious long term withdrawals followed discontinuation.

Withdrawal syndromes are not a guarantee. Some have none. Some get off easy. My contention though is that in about every case the risk versus reward ratio makes benzos a very bad option. These are highly addictive drugs. Any good and/or informed doc will tell you, but it is funny that the pharmacists often know more about these drugs than the docs. Have gotten the scoop from several of them. All recommended tapering off slowly.

howard could'nt stay away i researched klonopin all last night i can't believe some of the stuff i read first there was a girl in 1999 stopped klonopin i think she tapered and now in the year 2004 is still suffering w/d symptoms needless to say her drs are being sued(not surprising). then i read an article by a dr named cheney who says klonopin is absolutely not addictive maybe a little bit habitual i forget what treatment he used it for but he should choose his words more carefully. also i could'nt beleive this my bosses grandson (this is not research) is 18 months old and they have him on klonopin for seizures :eek: do you know of any other less addictive med they can put him on i know klonopin is very addictive just from your experience and it's upsetting me to see a baby on klonopin there has to be something else. another horrific thing is before klonopin they had him on phenobarbital. :eek: what the h--l is this world coming to when they put literally a baby on benzos or barbituates :blob_fire if you can offer me any help i'd love it thanks howard your awesome kelleigh :wave: :angel:

Murphy,
Howard gives you good advice.
The work addiction doesnt really describe the position as Jennita says - technically it is iatrogenic addiction. Its a dependency caused by use - and very short use too. The British National Formulary and Prof Ashton say that all benzos - and that includes the very very potent ones like xanax and klonopin so popular in the US - recommed using for a maximum of between 2 - 4 weeks. And NOT suitable for use for anxiety or bereavement! In fact they even lose their efficay in a matter of a short time - a month or so. The pharmas know damn well and the doctors are either stupid or just getting rich (xanax makes literally billions of dollars for its makers and prescribers). These mind alterning drugs were produced for anaesthesia - a one off - how in hell's name can drugs like this be safe for anyone not undergoing surgery?
If you have been using for more than a few months (and bear in mind there is no abuse involved here - just being taken as prescribed by your doctor) - you are almost certainly well and truly hooked. If you doubt this - just stop taking the K - it has a long half life and you will notce nothing for about 2 days and then see if anything happens? If you can stop - then good for you. If you have withdrawals then you must use a slow taper method for getting off - as in the Ashton Manual (free now online).
Murphy - if I were you I would ask your doctor what is protocol will be for withdrawing you from the drug - if he doesnt give you reasonable answers - then change doctors. This is serious stuff - dont be fooled by ignorant doctors. There are many of them out there. And your withdrawal will be months - if you are on 1 mg K that is equivalent to 20 mg valium - a pretty large dose.
Take care - get as much info as you can - there is loads on the net. You need to do something if you have been on for a matter of some months or years because there drugs actually strart to produce the very symptoms for which they were prescribed.
And one of the most common side effects of benzos is anxiety. So you are perhaps taking the drug which in fact is causing you the problems. If you want I will bump up an old thread that tells you about side effects of taking the drugs.
Do you know now that in the UK its a real hot topic. All doctors are calling in their long term benzo users with a view to planning their withdrawals. Our own Prof Ashton is in touch with our Health Minister for change in regulations for GPs to assist patients from getting off benzos.
Information is power.
Its all in your own hands - especially if you are in the US.
Good luck
Mise

Murphy,
Howard gives you good advice.
The work addiction doesnt really describe the position as Jennita says - technically it is iatrogenic addiction. Its a dependency caused by use - and very short use too. The British National Formulary and Prof Ashton say that all benzos - and that includes the very very potent ones like xanax and klonopin so popular in the US - recommed using for a maximum of between 2 - 4 weeks. And NOT suitable for use for anxiety or bereavement! In fact they even lose their efficay in a matter of a short time - a month or so. The pharmas know damn well and the doctors are either stupid or just getting rich (xanax makes literally billions of dollars for its makers and prescribers). These mind alterning drugs were produced for anaesthesia - a one off - how in hell's name can drugs like this be safe for anyone not undergoing surgery?
If you have been using for more than a few months (and bear in mind there is no abuse involved here - just being taken as prescribed by your doctor) - you are almost certainly well and truly hooked. If you doubt this - just stop taking the K - it has a long half life and you will notce nothing for about 2 days and then see if anything happens? If you can stop - then good for you. If you have withdrawals then you must use a slow taper method for getting off - as in the Ashton Manual (free now online).
Murphy - if I were you I would ask your doctor what is protocol will be for withdrawing you from the drug - if he doesnt give you reasonable answers - then change doctors. This is serious stuff - dont be fooled by ignorant doctors. There are many of them out there. And your withdrawal will be months - if you are on 1 mg K that is equivalent to 20 mg valium - a pretty large dose.
Take care - get as much info as you can - there is loads on the net. You need to do something if you have been on for a matter of some months or years because there drugs actually strart to produce the very symptoms for which they were prescribed.
And one of the most common side effects of benzos is anxiety. So you are perhaps taking the drug which in fact is causing you the problems. If you want I will bump up an old thread that tells you about side effects of taking the drugs.
Do you know now that in the UK its a real hot topic. All doctors are calling in their long term benzo users with a view to planning their withdrawals. Our own Prof Ashton is in touch with our Health Minister for change in regulations for GPs to assist patients from getting off benzos.
Information is power.
Its all in your own hands - especially if you are in the US.
Good luck
Mise
we haven't formally met but my name is kelleigh i've read your posts and lets just say i like em .i'm on klonopin to and howard informed me back on page 3to flush it which i was'nt to thrilled about at the time but now i read every word all of you right. i've been on it 5 weeks i know it's not long but i'm doing my own little taper because all of your stories horrify me . i started this post when i first joined the boards and i'm so happy that all of this is being written because it's opened my eyes to yet another sh-tty drug thanks mise all of you have informed me .well nice meeting you kelleigh :wave:

howard or jennita there is a post by a girl name amye on page 25 what the heck did she mean by asking me if i see floaters in my eyes help me out here i have no clue :dizzy: thanks kelleigh

<<i've been on it 5 weeks i know it's not long but i'm doing my own little taper because all of your stories horrify me>>

Kelleigh,

I hit you right between the eyes so to speak initially because it is early in the game for you, and you thus have the best chance of getting off easy. Can think of one in here that was taking Xanax once in a while then started taking them daily for a couple of weeks and was nervous about it. I and a few others entered the thread, and she soon flushed the pills. Said she would not go back. Well, if one was saved the misery all of my effort has been worth it.

Mise Ata Ann,

I have a difficult time understanding the profit motive, drug companies and benzos. Most must be buying generics and there are several manufacturers of these in the U.S. 30 .5 mg Xanaxes used to cost me $11. 60 5 mg Valiums cost the same. Would be the same price without insurance. Sure a lot of a little could add up to a lot, but I would like to see some figures on some of these drug companies profits on these drugs... Seems the big bucks would be in the SSRIs with valid patents, branded your only choice, and prices are way high. Same goes with Ambien. I probably would have switched to Ambien (yes, am now aware of the dangers) but the price detered me, $80 for a month`s supply.

Also, benzos were effective for me for much longer than one month. Was a great sleep aid for over a year. I also was able to quit after 9 months, off about 3 months, just did not want to bother going to the doc. Did the same for 10 days less than a year ago. No withdrawals either time. But had no intention of giving them up for good. Was still in the dark regarding consequences. Am by no means claiming I am typical in these regards, but it is my true experience. May be why I am more inclined to suggest "flushing" the pills to very short term users. Think there may be a real chance they are not hooked yet, and if not, no point in staying on them slow tapering and perhaps getting hooked in the process. What an irony that would be...

Hi, Kelleigh,

I didn't see the post you mention...but I can sure tell you what floaters are! Unfortunately! Floaters, as defined by my dictionary are: "a speck or small thread in the visual field (our eyeballs!), usually perceived to be moving, caused by the minute aggregations of cells or proteins in the vitreous humor of the eye."

I think you are too young to have developed them for the same reasons I have--middle-age!! :-) It is quite common for those of us aging baby boomers to suddenly wake up one day--to find that these annoying things have moved in and onto our field of vision. One night I went to bed--and they weren't there---and the next morning, I woke up--and they were! They appeared exactly as the dictionary describes: tiny black dots and what looked like a small piece of sewing thread! They are itsy-bitsy--but so annoying!

So--these bizarre things just float around in your vision (mine are only on the left side of my left eye). And it the most weird phenomenon, because if they are "floating" from left to right, like mine do--you'd think they would eventually "float" to the end of your eyeball....and OUT OF SIGHT!! LOL! But, of course, that's not what happens. If you concentrate on them (which you do when you first get them), you see them as the same darn specks and threads moving across your eyeball--over and over.

I was horrified when it first occurred--but then I learned that half of the middle-aged population wake up to the same problem. At first it drove me nuts...it distracted me so much I could barely read...I kept covering my left eye to keep them from floating over the words on each page!! But, after a few months, that left eye actually learned to "ignore" them. It was as if the fact that they were continually there, allowed my brain to just absorb them as part of my normal view! So--like a tiny mole that formed on your face years and years ago--you just stop "seeing" it when you look in the mirror.

And--luckily--I now rarely "see" them at all--unless I specifically "call" them into view. (i.e.; stop to think they they are even there!! ) It's difficult to explain...but you get the concept??

How do "floaters" apply to you? Did someone ask you if you had them?? If you have any more questions, just let me know! :-) Lynn

Hi, Kelleigh,

I didn't see the post you mention...but I can sure tell you what floaters are! Unfortunately! Floaters, as defined by my dictionary are: "a speck or small thread in the visual field (our eyeballs!), usually perceived to be moving, caused by the minute aggregations of cells or proteins in the vitreous humor of the eye."

I think you are too young to have developed them for the same reasons I have--middle-age!! :-) It is quite common for those of us aging baby boomers to suddenly wake up one day--to find that these annoying things have moved in and onto our field of vision. One night I went to bed--and they weren't there---and the next morning, I woke up--and they were! They appeared exactly as the dictionary describes: tiny black dots and what looked like a small piece of sewing thread! They are itsy-bitsy--but so annoying!

So--these bizarre things just float around in your vision (mine are only on the left side of my left eye). And it the most weird phenomenon, because if they are "floating" from left to right, like mine do--you'd think they would eventually "float" to the end of your eyeball....and OUT OF SIGHT!! LOL! But, of course, that's not what happens. If you concentrate on them (which you do when you first get them), you see them as the same darn specks and threads moving across your eyeball--over and over.

I was horrified when it first occurred--but then I learned that half of the middle-aged population wake up to the same problem. At first it drove me nuts...it distracted me so much I could barely read...I kept covering my left eye to keep them from floating over the words on each page!! But, after a few months, that left eye actually learned to "ignore" them. It was as if the fact that they were continually there, allowed my brain to just absorb them as part of my normal view! So--like a tiny mole that formed on your face years and years ago--you just stop "seeing" it when you look in the mirror.

And--luckily--I now rarely "see" them at all--unless I specifically "call" them into view. (i.e.; stop to think they they are even there!! ) It's difficult to explain...but you get the concept??

How do "floaters" apply to you? Did someone ask you if you had them?? If you have any more questions, just let me know! :-) Lynn
hey there thanks for the info she asked me because she said she could relate to my prickly skin from anxiety and then she asked me if i had floaters in my eyes thats how it all came up thanks kelleigh

<<i've been on it 5 weeks i know it's not long but i'm doing my own little taper because all of your stories horrify me>>

Kelleigh,

I hit you right between the eyes so to speak initially because it is early in the game for you, and you thus have the best chance of getting off easy. Can think of one in here that was taking Xanax once in a while then started taking them daily for a couple of weeks and was nervous about it. I and a few others entered the thread, and she soon flushed the pills. Said she would not go back. Well, if one was saved the misery all of my effort has been worth it.

Mise Ata Ann,

I have a difficult time understanding the profit motive, drug companies and benzos. Most must be buying generics and there are several manufacturers of these in the U.S. 30 .5 mg Xanaxes used to cost me $11. 60 5 mg Valiums cost the same. Would be the same price without insurance. Sure a lot of a little could add up to a lot, but I would like to see some figures on some of these drug companies profits on these drugs... Seems the big bucks would be in the SSRIs with valid patents, branded your only choice, and prices are way high. Same goes with Ambien. I probably would have switched to Ambien (yes, am now aware of the dangers) but the price detered me, $80 for a month`s supply.

Also, benzos were effective for me for much longer than one month. Was a great sleep aid for over a year. I also was able to quit after 9 months, off about 3 months, just did not want to bother going to the doc. Did the same for 10 days less than a year ago. No withdrawals either time. But had no intention of giving them up for good. Was still in the dark regarding consequences. Am by no means claiming I am typical in these regards, but it is my true experience. May be why I am more inclined to suggest "flushing" the pills to very short term users. Think there may be a real chance they are not hooked yet, and if not, no point in staying on them slow tapering and perhaps getting hooked in the process. What an irony that would be...
hi howard :wave: do you thinki there is a chance if i just stopped takin klonopin i'd be ok just curious cause i read the part about becoming more dependant as you taper post me back kelleigh

<<hi howard do you thinki there is a chance if i just stopped takin klonopin i'd be ok just curious cause i read the part about becoming more dependant as you taper post me back kelleigh>>

I personally think there is a good chance you will not have withdrawals from the Klonopin if you stopped immediately. But you may want to take an anti-seizure med for a week to play it safe. This is only my opinion. Others that stick to the same core outlook I have may disagree. But, whatever problems you were having before you took the Klonopin are liable to be waiting for you. But there are numerous personal, psychological, and spiritual strategies that can be employed to combat this. These include a good diet, exercise, coming to grips with what is going on in your body and the fact that it is not permanent, and removing oneself from more stressful situations if and when possible. One thing I discovered last night at the suggestion of a friend, you can now truly get a healthy meal at a fast food drive through, one of Wendy`s specialty salads. Finally! Never noticed that part of the menu before. Distraction is good, getting one`s mind off of the situation and involved in positive activities. Or any distraction, watching TV, whatever channels you like best.

<<i've been on it 5 weeks i know it's not long but i'm doing my own little taper because all of your stories horrify me>>

Kelleigh,

I hit you right between the eyes so to speak initially because it is early in the game for you, and you thus have the best chance of getting off easy. Can think of one in here that was taking Xanax once in a while then started taking them daily for a couple of weeks and was nervous about it. I and a few others entered the thread, and she soon flushed the pills. Said she would not go back. Well, if one was saved the misery all of my effort has been worth it.

Mise Ata Ann,

I have a difficult time understanding the profit motive, drug companies and benzos. Most must be buying generics and there are several manufacturers of these in the U.S. 30 .5 mg Xanaxes used to cost me $11. 60 5 mg Valiums cost the same. Would be the same price without insurance. Sure a lot of a little could add up to a lot, but I would like to see some figures on some of these drug companies profits on these drugs... Seems the big bucks would be in the SSRIs with valid patents, branded your only choice, and prices are way high. Same goes with Ambien. I probably would have switched to Ambien (yes, am now aware of the dangers) but the price detered me, $80 for a month`s supply.

Also, benzos were effective for me for much longer than one month. Was a great sleep aid for over a year. I also was able to quit after 9 months, off about 3 months, just did not want to bother going to the doc. Did the same for 10 days less than a year ago. No withdrawals either time. But had no intention of giving them up for good. Was still in the dark regarding consequences. Am by no means claiming I am typical in these regards, but it is my true experience. May be why I am more inclined to suggest "flushing" the pills to very short term users. Think there may be a real chance they are not hooked yet, and if not, no point in staying on them slow tapering and perhaps getting hooked in the process. What an irony that would be...
howard - you have hit the nail on the head. Unanswerable as far as I know. Often pondered that - could you actually cause addiction with a long taper? Aye - for sure. I am with you on the flush them if you have been on a short time and on a low dose (but the seizure problem is real and I would suggest that a doc prescribe an anti sizure med for a bit?) - after all - all a person has to do is to stop dead. Boy - you find out damn fast about the withdrawal symptoms if you are going to have them. Then reinstate and taper. In fact - that is how it happened for me!
I will try and find some facts and figures on xanax - but have have heard of huge profits - from reasonably sensible sources - will come back to you on that!
Mise

<<I will try and find some facts and figures on xanax - but have have heard of huge profits - from reasonably sensible sources - will come back to you on that!
Mise>>

It is true that the branded Xanax and Valiums are pricey. I do not know how many splurge for them. I have tried both branded and generic of both and noticed no real difference. I can think of four different companies off the top of my head that make generic Valiums, and that is just in the U.S.

<<Boy - you find out damn fast about the withdrawal symptoms if you are going to have them. Then reinstate and taper. In fact - that is how it happened for me!>>

Pretty much the same experience here, but cut out the daytime dosing, effectively cutting the dose in half. 3 days later, bam. Instinct told me to take a pill and it all went away. Confirmation, I was in trouble.

Sorry about my earlier post, somehow someway I wondered onto the wrong board. Didn't say much but was sounding a wee bit defensive. AGAIN I apologize

Sorry about my earlier post, somehow someway I wondered onto the wrong board. Didn't say much but was sounding a wee bit defensive. AGAIN I apologize

No problem whatsoever. :) If you took a bit of Valium only during a traumatic time and got off without getting hooked I am glad for you.

Thanks haven't been here long enough to get a "rep" for being a troublemaker...............that will come in good time! Later

Thanks haven't been here long enough to get a "rep" for being a troublemaker...............that will come in good time! Later

It is truly nothing. We are all here because we have or have had problems and the goal is to get better. We are on the same team. :)

<<hi howard do you thinki there is a chance if i just stopped takin klonopin i'd be ok just curious cause i read the part about becoming more dependant as you taper post me back kelleigh>>

I personally think there is a good chance you will not have withdrawals from the Klonopin if you stopped immediately. But you may want to take an anti-seizure med for a week to play it safe. This is only my opinion. Others that stick to the same core outlook I have may disagree. But, whatever problems you were having before you took the Klonopin are liable to be waiting for you. But there are numerous personal, psychological, and spiritual strategies that can be employed to combat this. These include a good diet, exercise, coming to grips with what is going on in your body and the fact that it is not permanent, and removing oneself from more stressful situations if and when possible. One thing I discovered last night at the suggestion of a friend, you can now truly get a healthy meal at a fast food drive through, one of Wendy`s specialty salads. Finally! Never noticed that part of the menu before. Distraction is good, getting one`s mind off of the situation and involved in positive activities. Or any distraction, watching TV, whatever channels you like best.
thanks howard i can always count on you those salads at wendys are awesome thanks for your advice did you read my other post to you i forget what page it's on about my bosses grandson i'll find the page so you don't have to go searching thanks again howard your good people kelleigh p.s its page 36

one more thing howard i got a new computer for mothers day so now i definitly can't stay away i also wanted to respond to your post about going to n/a meetings unfortunatly i have gone and atleast half of them are still using and it just made me sick to see thes people getting recognition for something they really did'nt achieve one person even offered to go try some heroin after the meeting uh no thanks good meeting huh i can't get support from people who have'nt even became clean thereselves thanks for all your support though i wish you lived close by i've found a friend in you (hope you don't mind my saying that)thanks for everything kelleigh :)

Butting in here - Patience - by pure accidence I found my way into the AA rooms - never looked back and am still there today - stay away from users. Maybe you might find more sobriety in AA rooms - I just dont know. But dont give up - you WILL find something that will suit. I think Chef goes to AA. Ask Rosie too.
But you're doing everything right - plug on - you will get there in the end!
Mise

Thanks haven't been here long enough to get a "rep" for being a troublemaker...............that will come in good time! Later
your funny and i'm sorry about the situation you experienced that must have been so awful i hope everything is a little better for you my thoughts are with you hugs to kelleigh

Butting in here - Patience - by pure accidence I found my way into the AA rooms - never looked back and am still there today - stay away from users. Maybe you might find more sobriety in AA rooms - I just dont know. But dont give up - you WILL find something that will suit. I think Chef goes to AA. Ask Rosie too.
But you're doing everything right - plug on - you will get there in the end!
Mise
thanks mise any advice helps me don't worry about butting in if you can help someone with any advice that's great your good people thanks again mise nice meetin ya 97 days methadone free kelleigh

Thanks............shucks ya'll warm the cockalls( you know what I'm tryin' for here) of my heart. Seriously its nice to feel so welcome stumbling into the wrong forum. Well can't really say wrong, the pain management board was what drew me here but anyone who has been there has to wonder about things sometimes. And as I said did have the valium thing for awhile.............A l- o- n -g while still think about them fondly just know I can't have a supply of them around. NOW THE TRUTH COMES OUT! But they did help me thru a very tuff time and they do have their redeeming qualities. I'll hush we've about beat this horse to death......have a wonderful evening.

one more thing howard i got a new computer for mothers day so now i definitly can't stay away i also wanted to respond to your post about going to n/a meetings unfortunatly i have gone and atleast half of them are still using and it just made me sick to see thes people getting recognition for something they really did'nt achieve one person even offered to go try some heroin after the meeting uh no thanks good meeting huh i can't get support from people who have'nt even became clean thereselves thanks for all your support though i wish you lived close by i've found a friend in you (hope you don't mind my saying that)thanks for everything kelleigh :)

I doubt this was a typical meeting. First report I have heard of being offered drugs at one...

<<But they did help me thru a very tuff time and they do have their redeeming qualities. I'll hush we've about beat this horse to death......have a wonderful evening.>> Marich101

Very few in my estimation. Is a tough poison to redeem... Could not let the horse die just there. Admittedly, I am going to be on the bitter side with what these drugs have put me through and cost me over the last 7 months. But yes, some take them and get away with it.

<<But they did help me thru a very tuff time and they do have their redeeming qualities. I'll hush we've about beat this horse to death......have a wonderful evening.>> Marich101

Very few in my estimation. Is a tough poison to redeem... Could not let the horse die just there. Admittedly, I am going to be on the bitter side with what these drugs have put me through and cost me over the last 7 months. But yes, some take them and get away with it.

Blow me! This horse simply wont die!!!
Like Howard - I hate them to hell - cost be the best part of a year of my life. I was not lucky and escape - I was typical and the withdrawal was vile. And it was caused thro no fault of my own - under doc's orders!
Nope - this filly is cantering merrily down the streets of every country in the world now - but there is at last a posse starting up in UK to track the beast down!
Mise

I doubt this was a typical meeting. First report I have heard of being offered drugs at one...
i don't know how to take you'r response but unforunatly in this one it's the way it was i knew alot of the people there and let me tell you 30,60,or 90 days clean just wasn't so. i went with a friend when i first got off methadone and her and a bunch of people offered i wasn't saying the councelor did but let me tell you in this society it happens these people go there do all the drugs they want and a drug test is nothing to them if they are required to take one .when i looked up info on methadone you know what popped up how to beat a drug test i know you probably think this did'nt happen but come to pittsfield mass and find out it was a typical n/a meeting

i don't know how to take you'r response but unforunatly in this one it's the way it was i knew alot of the people there and let me tell you 30,60,or 90 days clean just wasn't so. i went with a friend when i first got off methadone and her and a bunch of people offered i wasn't saying the councelor did but let me tell you in this society it happens these people go there do all the drugs they want and a drug test is nothing to them if they are required to take one .when i looked up info on methadone you know what popped up how to beat a drug test i know you probably think this did'nt happen but come to pittsfield mass and find out it was a typical n/a meeting

I`m not going to invest alot of energy in debating this one. Will about benzos, to my last breathe as the evidence on that topic is scientific and vast, and the stakes are very high. Do not go to NA if you do not wish to. Your choice as is everything else discussed on this thread. I have been to some small NA meetings with a friend, no drug using, all quite serious about staying clean. There are also members on the net that seem as serious about recovery as people on here. But surely there are people in NA and AA that are court ordered and not serious. That woud not concern me however. I would not be there for them but for my recovery, and am sure I could find others like myself.

Will about benzos, to my last breathe as the evidence on that topic is scientific and vast, and the stakes are very high.

And I am riding right behind you Howard!

I`m not going to invest alot of energy in debating this one. Will about benzos, to my last breathe as the evidence on that topic is scientific and vast, and the stakes are very high. Do not go to NA if you do not wish to. Your choice as is everything else discussed on this thread. I have been to some small NA meetings with a friend, no drug using, all quite serious about staying clean. There are also members on the net that seem as serious about recovery as people on here. But surely there are people in NA and AA that are court ordered and not serious. That woud not concern me however. I would not be there for them but for my recovery, and am sure I could find others like myself.
why is it everytime i share information it gets me some sort of negative or sinical response i just was looking to you for answers because you have opened my eyes to many things you shared that the closest n/a meeting was 30 miles away and did'nt know how they'd feel about you doing a taper i mearly shared with you why i did'nt try another n/a meeting and you blew it away like it was some fairy tale you knew so much about benzos and i looked to you for information and felt you were a friend i guess i should just stay out of this post from now on i did'nt share this with you as a debate i am not a debator i shared as a friend

why is it everytime i share information it gets me some sort of negative or sinical response i just was looking to you for answers because you have opened my eyes to many things you shared that the closest n/a meeting was 30 miles away and did'nt know how they'd feel about you doing a taper i mearly shared with you why i did'nt try another n/a meeting and you blew it away like it was some fairy tale you knew so much about benzos and i looked to you for information and felt you were a friend i guess i should just stay out of this post from now on i did'nt share this with you as a debate i am not a debator i shared as a friend

Did not mean it as cynical. I am actually optimistic about NA. Is an old saying in those 12 step groups, "stick with the winners." If there is not a single one of those in NA in your area, and they are all shooting dope in the parking lot after lying for an hour, stay away. I just very much doubt such a scenario would be anywhere near typical of NA as a whole, as I have evidence to the contrary. I tend not to pull punches, but have no objective to pick on or hurt people. As to NA, going it is up to you. :)

Blow me! This horse simply wont die!!!
Like Howard - I hate them to hell - cost be the best part of a year of my life. I was not lucky and escape - I was typical and the withdrawal was vile. And it was caused thro no fault of my own - under doc's orders!
Nope - this filly is cantering merrily down the streets of every country in the world now - but there is at last a posse starting up in UK to track the beast down!
Mise

Mise,

In the true British tradition, you have a way with words. I concur, and once I am healthy there will be one more tracking the beast down in America.

Did not mean it as cynical. I am actually optimistic about NA. Is an old saying in those 12 step groups, "stick with the winners." If there is not a single one of those in NA in your area, and they are all shooting dope in the parking lot after lying for an hour, stay away. I just very much doubt such a scenario would be anywhere near typical of NA as a whole, as I have evidence to the contrary. I tend not to pull punches, but have no objective to pick on or hurt people. As to NA, going it is up to you. :)
sorry howard i guess i just read to much into things sorry :o

sorry howard i guess i just read to much into things sorry :o

No problem. I am going to go to NA but probably not until my taper off is complete. May go sooner. But will not be there for any fakers, but for me and serious people I hope to find.

No problem. I am going to go to NA but probably not until my taper off is complete. May go sooner. But will not be there for any fakers, but for me and serious people I hope to find.
good luck to you hope your taper is over soon it must seem like eternity again i'm sorry

Will about benzos, to my last breathe as the evidence on that topic is scientific and vast, and the stakes are very high.

And I am riding right behind you Howard!

Good, I cannot possibly forget this. Just the mention of one of that class of drugs will always send chills up my spine. And as long as they have been around, it surely would boggle the mind the number of people that are directly or indirectly in the ground on account of them.

:bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing:
All I'm saying is they have their place, I have my horror story as well............took them for 10 years when it should have only been a short time. But I didn't realize I had a problem I was living better thru chemistry, the story goes on the seizures the whole nine yards. I made the choice to continue them and my Dr was very accomadating(can't make that word look right) But in the beginning when the divorce really got ugly I needed something..............maybe something else would have been better but as I"ve read here before hindsight is 20/20. Can we just agree to disagree.....Later and have a nice evening I'm taking me and Maggie( my little Yorkie, my baby girl) nitenite.

:bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing: :bouncing:
All I'm saying is they have their place, I have my horror story as well............took them for 10 years when it should have only been a short time. But I didn't realize I had a problem I was living better thru chemistry, the story goes on the seizures the whole nine yards. I made the choice to continue them and my Dr was very accomadating(can't make that word look right) But in the beginning when the divorce really got ugly I needed something..............maybe something else would have been better but as I"ve read here before hindsight is 20/20. Can we just agree to disagree.....Later and have a nice evening I'm taking me and Maggie( my little Yorkie, my baby girl) nitenite.

You reported that you came upon this thread by accident. But obviously it has really captured your interest as you keep coming back, and are now expressing real excitement. I am glad, and hope for much more awareness in the world community. Yes, I disagree. Benzodiazepines are unredeemable. The withdrawals syndromes are definitely much longer and often far uglier than any other drug, whether obtained at the pharmacy or on the street. And to add insult to injury, they are happily dispensed by ignorant and/or incompetent doctors, theraputically. Trusting souls are unwittedly becoming addicted, and much needless suffering, and sometimes ruined lives and deaths are the result.The scientific evidence is vast. The verdict is clear. Yes, I will agree to disagree with you but will never agree with the current pratices with prescibing these drugs.

Congratulations on your accomplishment. Do you have any positive people surrounding you? I'm sure that you've done plenty of things in your life that you should be proud of. Just the fact that you've been clean for two months is a accomplishment that anyone should be proud of you for. Hang in there, your still freshly clean. Drugs want you to question your happiness in a life without drugs in hopes that you'll use again. Just remember that two months is a good amount of time but not enough to get your life completely back in order so that you can receive all the rewards life has to offer. Good luck, and I'm proud of you. Stay on your path.

Oops... Posted on the wrong thread. I'm an idiot. Hope all is well.... :o

hi howard just checking to see how your doing have'nt chatted in a couple days just seeing how work is going abd seeeing how your sleep is going hope all is well chat soon kelleigh :wave:

hi howard just checking to see how your doing have'nt chatted in a couple days just seeing how work is going abd seeeing how your sleep is going hope all is well chat soon kelleigh :wave:

Hey Kelleigh. :) Exceptionally rough week at work. Sleep? Am getting it, need Benadryl sometimes. How are you doing?

Hey Kelleigh. :) Exceptionally rough week at work. Sleep? Am getting it, need Benadryl sometimes. How are you doing?
sorry so rough at work i'm doing ok in pain all the time cause my pain dr sucks but other than that glad you're sleeping thats awesome chat soon kelleigh

hi howard i need some encouragement my pain dr prescribed me vicodin about a month ago for pain and would not take it i just dealt with the pain and cried alot especially after work so last night a took a vicodin and feel like i ruined everything i'm coming to you because i just know you'll tell me the right thing and wont sugar coat it please help me i need a friend right now i'm so down in the dumps for doing this i ruined 100 plus days off methadone and feel like a failure thanks howard post me back kelleigh :o

hi howard i need some encouragement my pain dr prescribed me vicodin about a month ago for pain and would not take it i just dealt with the pain and cried alot especially after work so last night a took a vicodin and feel like i ruined everything i'm coming to you because i just know you'll tell me the right thing and wont sugar coat it please help me i need a friend right now i'm so down in the dumps for doing this i ruined 100 plus days off methadone and feel like a failure thanks howard post me back kelleigh :o

Hey Kelleigh :)

I do not know what to say because I do not have much experience with opiates. I have taken them (hydros and percocets) but never developed tolerance to them. I`ve read some horror stories. Know a few people that got hooked on them, but they came off and the withdrawals were brief and not real intense. I am not at all happy with the idea of you living out your life with chronic severe back pain. First, do not beat yourself up about taking the Vicodin. That serves no useful purpose. Second, look to others with more exerience in this area for solutions. Hugs my friend.

Hey Kelleigh :)

I do not know what to say because I do not have much experience with opiates. I have taken them (hydros and percocets) but never developed tolerance to them. I`ve read some horror stories. Know a few people that got hooked on them, but they came off and the withdrawals were brief and not real intense. I am not at all happy with the idea of you living out your life with chronic severe back pain. First, do not beat yourself up about taking the Vicodin. That serves no useful purpose. Second, look to others with more exerience in this area for solutions. Hugs my friend.
thanks howard knew i could count on you for a confidence builder thank you i know you don't have much experience in that area but just your words of kindness help thanks hugs right back at ya

Kelliegh,

Just my observation. I think you may have too much going at once here, chronic pain, withdrawals from methadone that seem to be persisting, panic episodes, and concerns about Klonopin, all while working. Do you have private disability insurance? If so, I suggest seeing if your doctor will assist in filing a claim. May well fly with the chronic pain. If not, you can make a claim with your state and getting payments may not take more than 3 months. We must do all we can to reduce stress. I have no private disability plan, have no immediate plans to make a state claim, but will be changing jobs and perhaps taking a few months off at the end of the summer.

Kelliegh,

Just my observation. I think you may have too much going at once here, chronic pain, withdrawals from methadone that seem to be persisting, panic episodes, and concerns about Klonopin, all while working. Do you have private disability insurance? If so, I suggest seeing if your doctor will assist in filing a claim. May well fly with the chronic pain. If not, you can make a claim with your state and getting payments may not take more than 3 months. We must do all we can to reduce stress. I have no private disability plan, have no immediate plans to make a state claim, but will be changing jobs and perhaps taking a few months off at the end of the summer.
HI HOWARD I THOUGHT ABOUT DISABILITY BUT HERE IN MASS IT'S VERY HARD TO GET I WATCHED MY VERY SICK MOTHER STRUGGLE TO GET IT FOR ATLEAST A YEAR AND FINALLY SHE HAD TO HIRE A LAWYER WHICH TOOK EVEN LONGER SHE FINALLY GOT IT AND GOT A MEASLY 16,OOO TO LAST THE REST OF HERE LIFE BUT UNFORTUNATLY SHE PASSED AWAY 4 WEEKS AFTER SHE FINALLY GOT IT I KNOW I HAVE ALOT GOING ON AT ONCE BUT ANOTHER THING HOLDING ME BACK FROM THAT IS MY BOSS IS RETIRING SOON AND SHE IS GIVING ME HER BUSINESS I PROBABLY SHOULD GO ON IT BUT IF I DID I DON'T KNOW IT WOULD'NT FEEL RIGHT TO ME I DON'T KNOW WHY BUT ON TO YOU YOUR SWITCHING JOBS SOUNDS GREAT YOU'RE TAKING SOME TIME OFF YOU NEED IT YOU ALSO HAVE ALOT ON YOUR PLATE RIGHT NOW IF YOU DON'T MIND MY ASKING WHAT IS IT YOU DO? IT JUST SOUNDS SO STRESSFUL I BET YOU'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE END OF THE SUMMER THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT HOWARD YOU ARE A GREAT FRIEND HUGS TO YOU CHAT WITH YOU LATER HUGS KELLEIGH :angel: :) :wave:

ALSO HAVENT HEARD FROM JENNITA IN AWHILE JUST WANTED TO CHECK IN AND SAY HI TO HER AND SEE HOW SHES DOING HOPE ALL IS WELL :wave:HOPE TO CHAT WITH YOU SOON YOU ALSO HAVE BEEN A BIG HELP TO ME AND MUCHLY APPRECIATE IT HUGS KELLEIGH :angel:

Kelleigh,

State disability is temporary and reportedly easier to get than federal. Sure it does vary state to state as to how much red tape is involved. But there is an old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the oil." As to what I do, I do not get into too much personal information on a board so public. I would in private messages but this site does not have that feature. And posting private e-mail addresses is not allowed. Trust me, it is a very stressful profession but made worse by my current superviser who is a real piece of work.

Kelleigh,

State disability is temporary and reportedly easier to get than federal. Sure it does vary state to state as to how much red tape is involved. But there is an old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the oil." As to what I do, I do not get into too much personal information on a board so public. I would in private messages but this site does not have that feature. And posting private e-mail addresses is not allowed. Trust me, it is a very stressful profession but made worse by my current superviser who is a real piece of work.
WELL LUCKILY YOUR CHANGING JOBS THEN IT'S PRETTY AWFUL TO WORK UNDER SOMEONE THAT YOU JUST CAN'T EITHER SEEM TO PLEASE OR WHATEVER YOUR CASE MAYBE JUST THOUGHT I'D ASK SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU IN ANY WAY I JUST HAVE ALOT OF CURIOUSITY AND YOU KNOW WHT THEY SAY CURIOUSITY KILLED THE CAT THATS ONE OF MY WEAKNESSES YOU'VE JUST PEAKED MY CURIOUSITY IN HOW YOU DESCRIBE YOUR JOB THE WAY YOU RIGHT I PICTURE AS SOME SCIENTIST ON HIS WAY TO A NOBEL PRIZE YOU JUST SEEM VERY INTELLIGENT AND VERY EDUCATED AGAIN SORRY IF I OFFENDE YOU IN ANY WAY KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK YOUR A GREAT PERSON KELLEIGH HOWARD YOU WERE JUST ONLINE WHERE DID U GO LOL

Howard Sorry To Keep Bothering You But I Know You Are Up On The Ashton Manual Pretty Well If I Was To Continue Taking Vicodin For My Pain Any Where In The Manual Does It Say Anything About Mixing Opiates With Benzodiazipines Just Thought I'd Ask I Know You Don't Know Alot About Opiates But Just Thought I Would As K Thought Maybe Haether Ashton Would Know I Briefly Searched Through It But Could Not Find Anything Even Searched The Net But Could'nt Find Any Facts About It Just Thought I'd Throw It Your Way I Posted It As A Question On The Board But You Know Somuch About Benzos Thought Maybe You'd Know Sorry To Be A Pain In Thea$$ Thanks Friend Kelleigh :)

ALSO HAVENT HEARD FROM JENNITA IN AWHILE JUST WANTED TO CHECK IN AND SAY HI TO HER AND SEE HOW SHES DOING HOPE ALL IS WELL :wave:HOPE TO CHAT WITH YOU SOON YOU ALSO HAVE BEEN A BIG HELP TO ME AND MUCHLY APPRECIATE IT HUGS KELLEIGH :angel:

Hi Kelligh! Sometimes I skip the boards a few days if I'm doing alot. I'm doing really good, thanks for asking! :wave:

I wouldn't worry too much about the Vicodin. From what I know, they are not as bad as benzos in the sense of long-term withdrawals. But just take them as dosed for pain, as as sparingly as you can manage. Pain is not something you can control and nobody would expect you to wrathe around in it! It's really only when pain pills become a source of euphoria and not pain-relief that is termed real "addictive behavior" anyway!

Isn't there something that can be done about your back pain? Chiropractic? Surgery? My mother-in-law had a nerve which caused horrible back pain, and she had some procedure done which basically killed the nerve itself so she's ok now but that was only one nerve problem so it doesn't apply to all back pain.

Anyway, point is, I would look into getting rid of the pain if it's possible in your case?

Hi Kelligh! Sometimes I skip the boards a few days if I'm doing alot. I'm doing really good, thanks for asking! :wave:

I wouldn't worry too much about the Vicodin. From what I know, they are not as bad as benzos in the sense of long-term withdrawals. But just take them as dosed for pain, as as sparingly as you can manage. Pain is not something you can control and nobody would expect you to wrathe around in it! It's really only when pain pills become a source of euphoria and not pain-relief that is termed real "addictive behavior" anyway!

Isn't there something that can be done about your back pain? Chiropractic? Surgery? My mother-in-law had a nerve which caused horrible back pain, and she had some procedure done which basically killed the nerve itself so she's ok now but that was only one nerve problem so it doesn't apply to all back pain.

Anyway, point is, I would look into getting rid of the pain if it's possible in your case?
hi jennita good to hear from you missed ya unfortunatly my pain is caused by 2 bulging discs and arthritis of my spine i can have surgery but my pain dr says it's to soon whatever that means i acually did go to a chiropractor and ended up in worse pain after words i only took one vicodin i'm just kind of nervous to go further because the w/ds of methadone remain in my nightmares forever i'm just considering taking the vicodin cause my pain really gets unbearable i have a contract with my pain dr and a pill count is one of the arrangements so i can't abuse them or tough luck i don't know if you would know about this but can you mix opiates and benzos seeing how one is an upper and one is a downer i'm just so confused right now the pain is just really getting to me and i'm considering switching pain clinics due to my dr not being there when i need him the most glad to hear you're doing well and nice to hear from you again kelleigh :)

Kayleigh,

I do not think Ashton gets much into opiates. She may note that they have "additive" effects with benzos but got too much to do tonight to hunt for the quote.

Jennita may be correct about Vicodins being uppers as some of these pain pills reportedly contain caffeine, and some report a stimulating effect. But percocets and hydrocodones were never an upper for me, and others I know report the same. I used leftovers from the dentist for sleep when all else failed. And it is a fact that opiates slow respiration so mixing them with benzos may not be advisable in some circumstances. In fact deaths have occured but this is probably mostly due to high dosing and/or mixing with alcohol. Does the person that prescribed you the pain pills know you are taking Klonopin? And are they aware of the dose? You could also pose these questions to a pharmacist. Do some research and deal with your doctor armed with information. This is more time consuming but worth the effort. Do not rely just on what a few people on the internet tell you.

Also, I am not clear as to why you were put on methadone then presumedly weaned off. From my knowledge this is done with opiate, often herion, addicts to detox them. Methadone clinics... If you have addiction issues with opiates, taking more may ignite an old flame. There are non-opiate related pain medicines to consider. And though I agree with the essence of the dependency/addiction distinction Jennita makes, especially when it comes to certain benzo users and the potential for medically mistreating them, I have read the distinction before and could see it easily getting abused. Dropping the addiction label could give the wrong people license to keep on using an addictive drug when they need to free themselves from it.

Kayleigh,

I do not think Ashton gets much into opiates. She may note that they have "additive" effects with benzos but got too much to do tonight to hunt for the quote.

Jennita may be correct about Vicodins being uppers as some of these pain pills reportedly contain caffeine, and some report a stimulating effect. But percocets and hydrocodones were never an upper for me, and others I know report the same. I used leftovers from the dentist for sleep when all else failed. And it is a fact that opiates slow respiration so mixing them with benzos may not be advisable in some circumstances. In fact deaths have occured but this is probably mostly due to high dosing and/or mixing with alcohol. Does the person that prescribed you the pain pills know you are taking Klonopin? And are they aware of the dose? You could also pose these questions to a pharmacist. Do some research and deal with your doctor armed with information. This is more time consuming but worth the effort. Do not rely just on what a few people on the internet tell you.

Also, I am not clear as to why you were put on methadone then presumedly weaned off. From my knowledge this is done with opiate, often herion, addicts to detox them. Methadone clinics... If you have addiction issues with opiates, taking more may ignite an old flame. There are non-opiate related pain medicines to consider. And though I agree with the essence of the dependency/addiction distinction Jennita makes, especially when it comes to certain benzo users and the potential for medically mistreating them, I have read the distinction before and could see it easily getting abused. Dropping the addiction label could give the wrong people license to keep on using an addictive drug when they need to free themselves from it.
hi howard i was put on methadone for my back pain they also use it for moderate to severe pain i first was on vicodin but it wears off to quickly when you hurt 24/7it's not that great of a pain killer to be on so my primary dr put me on methadone because it has a half life of 24 hrs(which is why it's the worst opiate to kick the w/ds last 3 to 5 wks and then you get the physchological which kicks your a$$ more than the physical) and lasts 12 hrs ive told my drs about what medications i'm on but they have'nt said anything i took my self off methadone because over 2 years time my tolerance went from 5 mgs to 50 and i just did'nt want to be at 100 by the time i was 40 as much as you despise benzos i despise methadone i know it helps people that are recovering heroin addicts but coming off this drug really screws up your life especially if your not weaned properly like me 50 to 0 that's alot of the reason why i'm on an ssri and klonopin they say i have social anxiety also but now i have a kind of panic disorder all due to this crappy drug to put it mildly it's totally screwed my head up i feel like this drug took pieces of me with it and will never be the same again sorry so long just venting :blob_fire i did'nt mean to get all into this just meant to tell you why they put me on it and when i talk about it it just really gets me going i know this w/d probably doesnt compare to benzo w/d but let me tell you it's my own private nightmare thanks for letting me vent your good people hope your job is going ok and not to stressful it's something you don't need right now either hugs kelleigh :)

Kayleigh,

I can understand now why you would not feel at home in NA meetings, as your aim all along was to control a medical condition, not to get "high." You said a very key word, "tolerance." If it were not for tolerance I would not be here. I would be going along happily taking my initially prescribed dose of tranqus. They benefited me, but turned on me, delivering withdrawal symptoms and demanding higher doses. There is no end once this happens. The demands will go up and up until you are taking enough to kill you.

As to the "social anxiety disorder," "generalized anxiety disorder," well unless one was real uncomfortable around people, in social situations, in crowds, before the drugs, then what one is experiencing is drug withdrawal. Common with coming off or havng come off of a variety of drugs, incuding alcohol, opiates, benzos, cocaine, etc. The drugs handle the brain`s pleasure and/or calming centers, and once off, there is an re-adjustment period where the brain takes back control of these areas. I have faith in my body to do this, and believe it is presently doing so as I slowly reduce my drug intake. Part of the price to pay. No fun, but will be worth it in the end.

As to how to best address your chronic pain, I have no clear answers, other than to just wait until you can have surgery and hope that helps. As to taking the occasional Vicodin on an as needed basis, Jennita may be correct. Also, I suggest trying your best not to worry. This never helps anything unless it quickly motivates someone to actions that prove beneficial. If there is nothing one can do about something worry is only harmful.

Kayleigh,

I do not think Ashton gets much into opiates. She may note that they have "additive" effects with benzos but got too much to do tonight to hunt for the quote.

Jennita may be correct about Vicodins being uppers as some of these pain pills reportedly contain caffeine, and some report a stimulating effect. But percocets and hydrocodones were never an upper for me, and others I know report the same. I used leftovers from the dentist for sleep when all else failed. And it is a fact that opiates slow respiration so mixing them with benzos may not be advisable in some circumstances. In fact deaths have occured but this is probably mostly due to high dosing and/or mixing with alcohol. Does the person that prescribed you the pain pills know you are taking Klonopin? And are they aware of the dose? You could also pose these questions to a pharmacist. Do some research and deal with your doctor armed with information. This is more time consuming but worth the effort. Do not rely just on what a few people on the internet tell you.

Also, I am not clear as to why you were put on methadone then presumedly weaned off. From my knowledge this is done with opiate, often herion, addicts to detox them. Methadone clinics... If you have addiction issues with opiates, taking more may ignite an old flame. There are non-opiate related pain medicines to consider. And though I agree with the essence of the dependency/addiction distinction Jennita makes, especially when it comes to certain benzo users and the potential for medically mistreating them, I have read the distinction before and could see it easily getting abused. Dropping the addiction label could give the wrong people license to keep on using an addictive drug when they need to free themselves from it.

I don't think I said Vicodins were uppers; they are narcotics, right? I think they are technically downers like all opiates. I can't find any detailed info on Vicodin about any caffiene in them. I know OTC pain relievers sometimes have caffeine; mainly for headaches because caffeine helps headaches.


Actually, Kelligh, you should make sure your doctor thinks it's ok to take the Vicodin occassionally because you are on other drugs which could interact unfavorably!

Are you on Klonopin and Zoloft....I forgot exactly. I agree with Howard about the social anxiety. To me, your main issue has been pain and that is the most important.....how many of us could function well with alot of pain? It's not possible.

The anxiety issues, etc. could be worked out without meds for all they know but now they have just complicated your physical problems with all these extra meds. I would try eventually to get off the psychiatric meds and concentrate on steps to get your pain under control. I bet if you felt better physically, your mental state may change for the better. I hope you can find a doctor who will be more aggressive with treating your physical problems.

I don't think I said Vicodins were uppers; they are narcotics, right? I think they are technically downers like all opiates. I can't find any detailed info on Vicodin about any caffiene in them. I know OTC pain relievers sometimes have caffeine; mainly for headaches because caffeine helps headaches.


Actually, Kelligh, you should make sure your doctor thinks it's ok to take the Vicodin occassionally because you are on other drugs which could interact unfavorably!

Are you on Klonopin and Zoloft....I forgot exactly. I agree with Howard about the social anxiety. To me, your main issue has been pain and that is the most important.....how many of us could function well with alot of pain? It's not possible.

The anxiety issues, etc. could be worked out without meds for all they know but now they have just complicated your physical problems with all these extra meds. I would try eventually to get off the psychiatric meds and concentrate on steps to get your pain under control. I bet if you felt better physically, your mental state may change for the better. I hope you can find a doctor who will be more aggressive with treating your physical problems.
hi jennita i actually spoke to my dr today and nixed the vicodin he wants to put me on a fentynal patch which yes is another narcotic i'm the one that mentioned vicodin being an upper i always thought they were because of the euphoria they gave but i could be wrong i also mentioned to him today just to remind him that i was on other meds and he expressed no concern but i am glad to say i have taken no klonopin today and don't feel crappy but i know klonopin has a 50 hr half life so that could be it i actually did slowly cut my dose down though for the past couple weeks i am still on lexapro though which i think i'll ride out for awhile cause i don't want to stop to many things at once i'm gonna have to do some research on this patch i used it to wean off methadone it was suppose to ease the w/ds (yeah right) everthing just makes me so nervous now but i learn to control that thanks for your support kelleigh

Kayleigh,

I can understand now why you would not feel at home in NA meetings, as your aim all along was to control a medical condition, not to get "high." You said a very key word, "tolerance." If it were not for tolerance I would not be here. I would be going along happily taking my initially prescribed dose of tranqus. They benefited me, but turned on me, delivering withdrawal symptoms and demanding higher doses. There is no end once this happens. The demands will go up and up until you are taking enough to kill you.

As to the "social anxiety disorder," "generalized anxiety disorder," well unless one was real uncomfortable around people, in social situations, in crowds, before the drugs, then what one is experiencing is drug withdrawal. Common with coming off or havng come off of a variety of drugs, incuding alcohol, opiates, benzos, cocaine, etc. The drugs handle the brain`s pleasure and/or calming centers, and once off, there is an re-adjustment period where the brain takes back control of these areas. I have faith in my body to do this, and believe it is presently doing so as I slowly reduce my drug intake. Part of the price to pay. No fun, but will be worth it in the end.

As to how to best address your chronic pain, I have no clear answers, other than to just wait until you can have surgery and hope that helps. As to taking the occasional Vicodin on an as needed basis, Jennita may be correct. Also, I suggest trying your best not to worry. This never helps anything unless it quickly motivates someone to actions that prove beneficial. If there is nothing one can do about something worry is only harmful.
thanks howard your post makes alot of sense i did'nt take any klonopin today as i told jennita as i told you i was weaning down i feel ok but i know klonopin has a long half life so it could be that also nixed the vicodin and am going on a fentynal patch which is a narcotic but it lasts 72 hrs so i would'nt have to keep popping pills so i'm gonna do some research on it before i put it on because i don't want to end up in a hellish nightmare again thank you for your concern you and jennita both have been so helpful kelleigh

thanks howard your post makes alot of sense i did'nt take any klonopin today as i told jennita as i told you i was weaning down i feel ok but i know klonopin has a long half life so it could be that also nixed the vicodin and am going on a fentynal patch which is a narcotic but it lasts 72 hrs so i would'nt have to keep popping pills so i'm gonna do some research on it before i put it on because i don't want to end up in a hellish nightmare again thank you for your concern you and jennita both have been so helpful kelleigh
hey howard just wanted to say hi and to try and have a non stressful day at work hugs kelleigh

Hey Kelleigh,

Not a good day. Heart symptoms. Mine sometimes takes off for hours, high end BP also. About all you can do is lay down and try and relax if you do not want to take a med. Not a good situation for a middle aged male. Perhaps Jennita will come in and tell us how she dealt with this, if she had similar issues. They say on another board, "the only way out is through," but I`d rather not make it through in a casket...

Hey Kelleigh,

Not a good day. Heart symptoms. Mine sometimes takes off for hours, high end BP also. About all you can do is lay down and try and relax if you do not want to take a med. Not a good situation for a middle aged male. Perhaps Jennita will come in and tell us how she dealt with this, if she had similar issues. They say on another board, "the only way out is through," but I`d rather not make it through in a casket...

I'm not sure about the blood pressure thing because I avoided doctors like the plague during withdrawal, but I did get sick a few times with infection and when my blood pressure was taken, it was ok. I attribute my good blood pressure strictly to weight training. I would do at least a little even during early withdrawals.

I'm 47 and benzo withdrawal left me with an extra 40 lbs to deal with since after acute withdrawal(no appetite and severe weight loss), it boomeranged into constant hunger and weight gain. I've lost 10 lbs of it finally and very slowly( I don't try that hard diet wise; but I should :nono: ) but even with that large of a weight gain plus withdrawals/lingering sleep issues, I still manage to have a blood pressure every time I check at around 120/60!

It has to be the exercise, because although I try to be nutrition consious, I have to have chocolate/ice creams/desserts or fast food way too often. I'm also Italian, and pasta is a fav of mine. So I can't say diet has kept my weight down, so again, it has to be the exercise!!! It also can't be youth, I'm 47 and this, from what I've heard is fairly old. :confused: I'm also still 30 lbs. over my old weight but still the pressure is down.

I go to the gym 4 times a week; free weights and machines, then around 15-20 minutes of some sort of cardio machine.

But that is now; before, in early withdrawal, I only did mild, light weight work and short, non-stressful cardio like walking or light setting on the bike at the gym. Just didn't have enough energy.

So what's my point? Errrr....I forgot....just kidding! :) My point is, exercise, although difficult in withdrawal, is a must!!!!!!!! Even just some walking will make enough of a difference to keep that pressure down!

As far as the heart racing, that is something I remember well!! Ugh... :eek: :(
I would have like 100 BPM resting rate! That's insane, especially for a person who's usual range was 64-70!

But eventually, it does go back to pre-benzo state...don't be too worried about it, unless of course you haven't had a checkup just to make sure there is no other heart condition.

We know benzo withdrawals will not make us immune to other conditions. But I had already took the complete physical during withdrawal, so I knew my heart-racing was benzo-related. Sure enough, as time passed, it got better and finally returned to normal.

Also, remember, withdrawals are too taxing on the body for one to try and exercise too vigorously! You might over-due and cause more stress on the body. This isn't an Olympic event; merely starting with a few minutes a day can do wonders, and later as withdrawals get better, more time and effort can be added.

So, keep the exercise very mild during this time. That was a hard thing for me psychologically, because I had been used to vigorous workouts but I knew I had to be careful during such a trauma as benzo withdrawal not to make myself worse.

So, take it easy but try to do whatever you can. Your blood pressure will thank you for it. ;)

Hey Kelleigh,

Not a good day. Heart symptoms. Mine sometimes takes off for hours, high end BP also. About all you can do is lay down and try and relax if you do not want to take a med. Not a good situation for a middle aged male. Perhaps Jennita will come in and tell us how she dealt with this, if she had similar issues. They say on another board, "the only way out is through," but I`d rather not make it through in a casket...
god i'm really sorry your going through that by heart systems do you mean the racing you get i hope you're ok just sit back and try to relax if you can and im really sorry you had a rough day i know kind of what you're going through due to the w/ds i went through if you're still not doing so good you should take some time off i know you probably won't but just a suggestion my heart goes out to you howard keep me posted i'm concerned about you hugs to you kelleigh

Kelleigh,

I am taking some time off of work. Worn out, going to lie down, chat soon.

Kelleigh,

I am taking some time off of work. Worn out, going to lie down, chat soon.
howard i'm happy to hear you are doing that just kick back i was worried about you when your feeling up to you we'll chat then thoughts are with you hugs kelleigh

Kelleigh,

I am taking some time off of work. Worn out, going to lie down, chat soon.

That's great to hear, finally some time off for you. This may give you the re-charge you need to push through your withdrawals a bit! Maybe you may even feel like some daily walks. Rest and relaxation really helped me many days during my withdrawals; I'm not sure how I would have gotten thru it without that.

That's great to hear, finally some time off for you. This may give you the re-charge you need to push through your withdrawals a bit! Maybe you may even feel like some daily walks. Rest and relaxation really helped me many days during my withdrawals; I'm not sure how I would have gotten thru it without that.

Thanks. I think you are right. It is helping. Just what the doctor ordered. I guess I just finally ran out of gas...

Thanks. I think you are right. It is helping. Just what the doctor ordered. I guess I just finally ran out of gas...
hi howard hope you're doing alright again i'm so happy to hear you took time off you definitly need it does this happen to you alot or did you drop in your taper i know this whole thing has probably been hard on you but this is the first time i've heard you say you're not doing so good you're a very strong person and now that you said you were feeling pretty bad it concerns me i hope you did'nt mind me asking that i just want to be there for you like you have for me i don't want to bother you with my story but NO MORE KLONOPIN YAY!!!!!! get well soon ok the w/ds you've described to me from benzos sound terrible and just want you to know my thoughts and prayers are with you hang in there hugs kelleigh :angel: :angel: :angel: :) :) :)

Thanks. I think you are right. It is helping. Just what the doctor ordered. I guess I just finally ran out of gas...

Ha Ha! You wouldn't think of getting in your car for a spin if the tank was empty, or if the starter was broken, right?

You've been towed for repairs and a full tank, howard. :D

Enjoy your rest!

lol jennita by the way how are you doing all is well i hope just want to tell you you've been a great help for me hope to chat with you soon :wave: kelleigh

hi howard hope you're doing alright again i'm so happy to hear you took time off you definitly need it does this happen to you alot or did you drop in your taper i know this whole thing has probably been hard on you but this is the first time i've heard you say you're not doing so good you're a very strong person and now that you said you were feeling pretty bad it concerns me i hope you did'nt mind me asking that i just want to be there for you like you have for me i don't want to bother you with my story but NO MORE KLONOPIN YAY!!!!!! get well soon ok the w/ds you've described to me from benzos sound terrible and just want you to know my thoughts and prayers are with you hang in there hugs kelleigh :angel: :angel: :angel: :) :) :)

You know something is wrong on this end when I do not have much to say. I worked 8 months, 2 jobs, one quite high stress 70 hours a week while dealing with the benzo stuff. Well my body finally demanded, "Stop!" My doc agreed.

You know something is wrong on this end when I do not have much to say. I worked 8 months, 2 jobs, one quite high stress 70 hours a week while dealing with the benzo stuff. Well my body finally demanded, "Stop!" My doc agreed.
exactly thats why i'm so concerned you definitly needed this time off you had to much on your plate you hang in there ok hope you're getting enough rest and taking it easy ok again my thoughts are with you you've supported me it's time for me to support you hugs kelleigh