khoff
04-13-2004, 06:10 PM
Shore -
I take percocet 10mg/2x a day for back pain. It is not doing the job (just slightly strong). I was given oxycontin 10mg/2x but it is also not doing the job. My new PM doc does not prescribe oxycontin and prefers not to even prescribe percocet if possible. He prefers methadone since he says it is better and his patients have told him about the less side effects and feeling normal again with it.
My question is: Is methadone a stronger med than oyxcodone? If so, how much do you think I would start with and how often daily? I maybe moving from NJ to Virginia soon and I am also concerned that if I have to get a new PM doc there, how hard is getting a Rx for methadone as opposed to oxycodone? I mean I would hate to start something and then have docs say no to prescribing and having to go thru a withdrawl. I also heard it eliminates the "high" feeling with opiods which would be great, and is a NMDA antagonist so no more dex.
Wondering what you think ?
- ken
I take percocet 10mg/2x a day for back pain. It is not doing the job (just slightly strong). I was given oxycontin 10mg/2x but it is also not doing the job. My new PM doc does not prescribe oxycontin and prefers not to even prescribe percocet if possible. He prefers methadone since he says it is better and his patients have told him about the less side effects and feeling normal again with it.
My question is: Is methadone a stronger med than oyxcodone? If so, how much do you think I would start with and how often daily? I maybe moving from NJ to Virginia soon and I am also concerned that if I have to get a new PM doc there, how hard is getting a Rx for methadone as opposed to oxycodone? I mean I would hate to start something and then have docs say no to prescribing and having to go thru a withdrawl. I also heard it eliminates the "high" feeling with opiods which would be great, and is a NMDA antagonist so no more dex.
Wondering what you think ?
- ken
Sponsor
farmboy7
04-13-2004, 09:19 PM
Hi ken,
I just joined this board so I could respond to you, so you must feel honored, ha ha.
Anyway, my doctor recently switched me off methadone and increased my oxycodone by triple the amount to make up for it. It did not work! I went into severe withdrawal by the third day, crying like a baby,vomit coming out my nose, the whole bit. My doctor said everyone is different and this should not have happened, but after a lot of reading and talking I am discovering that methadone is considered by a lot of people to be the worst opiate to quit, even worse than heroin. People have told me about tapering down for a YEAR to get to 1mg and still being rough to drop that.
It does work for pain like other opiates and that is why I am taking it. It does not really make you high but the other opiates never really did either, they were busy working on my pain.(crushed vertabrae+)
Anyway, my advice would be to do a google search on *methadone* and *methadone withdrawal* and see what you find. I think that opiates can be used properly for pain if you take them only when you need them for pain. Methadone does not seem to fit that category for me as now I have to take it just to maintain my dependence and not be sick from withdrawal. I used to be able to skip a few days or cut way down if my pain was low, but not anymore.
peace,
farmboy7
I just joined this board so I could respond to you, so you must feel honored, ha ha.
Anyway, my doctor recently switched me off methadone and increased my oxycodone by triple the amount to make up for it. It did not work! I went into severe withdrawal by the third day, crying like a baby,vomit coming out my nose, the whole bit. My doctor said everyone is different and this should not have happened, but after a lot of reading and talking I am discovering that methadone is considered by a lot of people to be the worst opiate to quit, even worse than heroin. People have told me about tapering down for a YEAR to get to 1mg and still being rough to drop that.
It does work for pain like other opiates and that is why I am taking it. It does not really make you high but the other opiates never really did either, they were busy working on my pain.(crushed vertabrae+)
Anyway, my advice would be to do a google search on *methadone* and *methadone withdrawal* and see what you find. I think that opiates can be used properly for pain if you take them only when you need them for pain. Methadone does not seem to fit that category for me as now I have to take it just to maintain my dependence and not be sick from withdrawal. I used to be able to skip a few days or cut way down if my pain was low, but not anymore.
peace,
farmboy7
rlcowboy
04-13-2004, 11:52 PM
I just wanted to coment because I recently made the same switch, except I was on 40mg oxycontin(oxycodone) twice a day and after my fourth back surgery I made the switch to Methadone. Although I am still in alot of pain I will say that the methadone,10mg 4 times a day, helps better than the oxycontin.Shore can tell you better than me but methadone is used as a long term pain med because it builds up in your body. My PM doctor wanted me to try it months ago but I would'nt because I thought oxycontin was the best thing for pain but I was wrong.Plus another good thing about methadone is that you can take the same dose for over a year or two without having to increase the dose. All folks are different but for me the methadone has worked better than anything I have tryed for pain so far. You could just try it for a month or so and see how it works for you.
Shoreline
04-14-2004, 01:24 PM
Hi Ken, If you do a search for meth withdrawal, You won't be able to distinguish between meth maint patients that have experienced meth withdrawal and what CP patients experience when switching from meth to another med.
You do experience some differential withdrawal when switching away from meth to other opiates, but it won't be like the hell addicts describe when they were booted out of a meth maint program or tried to go cold turkey on their own. I'm afraid the only info you would find would be meth maint info and their withdrawal experience would be very different from simply swithing meds for a CP patient although most addicts don't see the difference. If they can't handle it , nobody can. WRONG!!!.
You are not on a high dose of oxyC or percs, 40mgs a day is pretty minimal for a CP patient. So you meth needs to prevent withdrawl when you switch and what it takes to give you additional pain will apear relatively low.
If I were you doc I would start you at 5 mgs TID or QID and work up from their. a 1:2 conversion , meth being stronger or a 2:3 conversion will be more than adaquate to prevent any withdrawal. Because you really haven't found proper relief with OxyContin you may need to adjust your meth dose untill you reach max benefit with minimal side effects.
What you likely would experience is that once exposed to meth for any length of time it will increase your tolerance to other opiates because it's so much stronger once you attain a smooth serum level. The 15 -20 mgs a day I suggest is going to build up and by the 5th day your serum levels would reflect a patient that took a single dose of 30-35 mgs of meth per day. Which would be considerably stronger than Oxy.
All the equinalgesic tables I have seen only offer single dose comparisons when looking at meth, they don't account for the build up of from the long half life.
So although 15-20 mgs doesn't sound like much, It's awhole lot stronger than oxy. The most recent articles about meth potency suggest meth is actually 5-10 times stronger than morphine and if Oxy is only 50% stronger than morph 20 mgs of meth is a considerable increase.
Going through trial and errror of different meds isn't usually a particularly pleaseant experience because docs tend to start low , better to error on the ide of caution than to over dose a patient. When he makes the switch be sure you know what his expectation are as far as waiting X amount of time before making an increase. 10 days to 2 weeks is plenty of time but any less really wouldn't be safe. So put those cards on the table and ask, If I'm not getting relief from the starting dose, how long do you have to wait to call. If you have an adverse reaction, just call.
To describe a little better about tolerance once exposed to meth, although your tolerance to meth will not rapidly increase. Even if you were to be happy with the initial conversion, say 20mgs a day. If you were to try to switch back to oxy you would likely need 3 times the amount of Oxy you were taking prior to your switch to meth, because of the buildup from the long half life of meth. The transition would be a little bumpy but in the grand scheme of things, taking several months to find the right dose, or experiencing a couple weeks of diferential withdrawal is a ptretty minimal price to pay for relief from a life of intractable pain. IMO
I'm sure an addicts opinion would be different. For me, I just can't find any empathy for someone that shot up heroin for years then switched to meth maint, with no intention on decreasing the dose, just maintaining and preventing withdrawal for a few more years and then complains that meth withdrawal is worse than X Y or Z.Ive seen meth maint patient continue to take the same dose of meth for 10+ years with no attempt to ever decrease the dose, In those cases what have they rally acomplished aside from not taking the health risks of IV med abuse.
Meth withdrawal was terrible compared to what, being a junkie for 10 years. To expect to have a smotth transition after years of abuse and then years of meth maint really isn't realistic. There isn't a quick fix for addiction, unless you have 10-15k for rapid detox under sedation and even then the rate of return to addiction with heroin is extremely high.
The sedation from meth is much more profound than oxy, Oxy is actually a pro drug which tends to energize many users of Oxy, where there isn't anything energizing about meth.
I do understand docs not wanting to prescribe oxyContin and being part of any database of prescribers and for the patient I wouldn't want to be part of a database of oxy users. My own docs PM practice hasn't prescribed oxyC in 3 years. VA was one of the first states to develop a tracking system funded by Purdue.
Anyway, the transition to meth is pretty smooth, meth is at least 2-3 tmes stronger than Oxy so it wouldn't take much meth daily to create an increase in opiates. At the initiation of therapy is the best time to set your goals with your doc. What to shoot for and when to recognize that this is as good as it will get. Have some reasonable activity goals when you go in and discuss them. Being ablt to sit through a dinner with your family, being ablre to sit through a movie, things like that are reasobale. Being able to take a horse into the back country during deer season isn't a reasonable goal to expect to acheive with opiates.
Returning to work or continuing to work is the pinnacle of opiate therapy success.
When it comes to the whole dependence Vs addiction thing. My bottom line is that addiction never improves the qaulity of someones life.Perriod! Physical dependence on a med is just a consequence we must be willing to except and that just means being compliant and making apts, not self medicating, etc. As long as your therapy improves the quality of life your on the right track.
Good luck and let us know where your doc starts you. Take care, Dave
You do experience some differential withdrawal when switching away from meth to other opiates, but it won't be like the hell addicts describe when they were booted out of a meth maint program or tried to go cold turkey on their own. I'm afraid the only info you would find would be meth maint info and their withdrawal experience would be very different from simply swithing meds for a CP patient although most addicts don't see the difference. If they can't handle it , nobody can. WRONG!!!.
You are not on a high dose of oxyC or percs, 40mgs a day is pretty minimal for a CP patient. So you meth needs to prevent withdrawl when you switch and what it takes to give you additional pain will apear relatively low.
If I were you doc I would start you at 5 mgs TID or QID and work up from their. a 1:2 conversion , meth being stronger or a 2:3 conversion will be more than adaquate to prevent any withdrawal. Because you really haven't found proper relief with OxyContin you may need to adjust your meth dose untill you reach max benefit with minimal side effects.
What you likely would experience is that once exposed to meth for any length of time it will increase your tolerance to other opiates because it's so much stronger once you attain a smooth serum level. The 15 -20 mgs a day I suggest is going to build up and by the 5th day your serum levels would reflect a patient that took a single dose of 30-35 mgs of meth per day. Which would be considerably stronger than Oxy.
All the equinalgesic tables I have seen only offer single dose comparisons when looking at meth, they don't account for the build up of from the long half life.
So although 15-20 mgs doesn't sound like much, It's awhole lot stronger than oxy. The most recent articles about meth potency suggest meth is actually 5-10 times stronger than morphine and if Oxy is only 50% stronger than morph 20 mgs of meth is a considerable increase.
Going through trial and errror of different meds isn't usually a particularly pleaseant experience because docs tend to start low , better to error on the ide of caution than to over dose a patient. When he makes the switch be sure you know what his expectation are as far as waiting X amount of time before making an increase. 10 days to 2 weeks is plenty of time but any less really wouldn't be safe. So put those cards on the table and ask, If I'm not getting relief from the starting dose, how long do you have to wait to call. If you have an adverse reaction, just call.
To describe a little better about tolerance once exposed to meth, although your tolerance to meth will not rapidly increase. Even if you were to be happy with the initial conversion, say 20mgs a day. If you were to try to switch back to oxy you would likely need 3 times the amount of Oxy you were taking prior to your switch to meth, because of the buildup from the long half life of meth. The transition would be a little bumpy but in the grand scheme of things, taking several months to find the right dose, or experiencing a couple weeks of diferential withdrawal is a ptretty minimal price to pay for relief from a life of intractable pain. IMO
I'm sure an addicts opinion would be different. For me, I just can't find any empathy for someone that shot up heroin for years then switched to meth maint, with no intention on decreasing the dose, just maintaining and preventing withdrawal for a few more years and then complains that meth withdrawal is worse than X Y or Z.Ive seen meth maint patient continue to take the same dose of meth for 10+ years with no attempt to ever decrease the dose, In those cases what have they rally acomplished aside from not taking the health risks of IV med abuse.
Meth withdrawal was terrible compared to what, being a junkie for 10 years. To expect to have a smotth transition after years of abuse and then years of meth maint really isn't realistic. There isn't a quick fix for addiction, unless you have 10-15k for rapid detox under sedation and even then the rate of return to addiction with heroin is extremely high.
The sedation from meth is much more profound than oxy, Oxy is actually a pro drug which tends to energize many users of Oxy, where there isn't anything energizing about meth.
I do understand docs not wanting to prescribe oxyContin and being part of any database of prescribers and for the patient I wouldn't want to be part of a database of oxy users. My own docs PM practice hasn't prescribed oxyC in 3 years. VA was one of the first states to develop a tracking system funded by Purdue.
Anyway, the transition to meth is pretty smooth, meth is at least 2-3 tmes stronger than Oxy so it wouldn't take much meth daily to create an increase in opiates. At the initiation of therapy is the best time to set your goals with your doc. What to shoot for and when to recognize that this is as good as it will get. Have some reasonable activity goals when you go in and discuss them. Being ablt to sit through a dinner with your family, being ablre to sit through a movie, things like that are reasobale. Being able to take a horse into the back country during deer season isn't a reasonable goal to expect to acheive with opiates.
Returning to work or continuing to work is the pinnacle of opiate therapy success.
When it comes to the whole dependence Vs addiction thing. My bottom line is that addiction never improves the qaulity of someones life.Perriod! Physical dependence on a med is just a consequence we must be willing to except and that just means being compliant and making apts, not self medicating, etc. As long as your therapy improves the quality of life your on the right track.
Good luck and let us know where your doc starts you. Take care, Dave
farmboy7
04-14-2004, 05:16 PM
Hi ken,
I have confidence that you will be able to discern the difference between methadone maintenance patients and chronic pain patients if you do a search on methadone withdrawal.
I want to clarify that I am not an addict, I am a chronic pain patient. I injured my back and tailbone over 9 years ago and have been in pretty much constant pain ever since then. I have followed my prescriptions as required for codeine, percocet, hydrocodone, oxycocone, MScontin, and most recently methadone. I started taking methadone over a year ago when my doctor suggested trying it for the pain that was consuming me. I was working at the time and desperate to stay on the job despite my pain. The transition to methadone posed no problems for me and I was directed to take oxycodone in addition to the meth as needed for breakthrough pain.
The methadone did work well on my pain at first and the dosage was increased once. After several months my pain level increased steadily and my oxy use for breakthrough pain increased but without results. Finally I had to quit my job because just driving there and back was murder on my back. My recent withdrawal from methadone was suggested by my doctor and it was horrible.
The problem I see with methadone for myself is that because of its half-life it becomes something you have to take on a regular schedule for maintenance and not necessarily related to your pain at that moment. Any of the other pain-killers I took as needed and always as little as possible, sometimes cutting my use drastically for weeks if my pain was bearable....and with no withdrawal effects.
It is unfortunate that some people have no empathy for heroin addicts because I have met some and they appear to be humans just like me. I also think we can learn from them since opiates are opiates and they have real experience with them.
peace,
farmboy7
I have confidence that you will be able to discern the difference between methadone maintenance patients and chronic pain patients if you do a search on methadone withdrawal.
I want to clarify that I am not an addict, I am a chronic pain patient. I injured my back and tailbone over 9 years ago and have been in pretty much constant pain ever since then. I have followed my prescriptions as required for codeine, percocet, hydrocodone, oxycocone, MScontin, and most recently methadone. I started taking methadone over a year ago when my doctor suggested trying it for the pain that was consuming me. I was working at the time and desperate to stay on the job despite my pain. The transition to methadone posed no problems for me and I was directed to take oxycodone in addition to the meth as needed for breakthrough pain.
The methadone did work well on my pain at first and the dosage was increased once. After several months my pain level increased steadily and my oxy use for breakthrough pain increased but without results. Finally I had to quit my job because just driving there and back was murder on my back. My recent withdrawal from methadone was suggested by my doctor and it was horrible.
The problem I see with methadone for myself is that because of its half-life it becomes something you have to take on a regular schedule for maintenance and not necessarily related to your pain at that moment. Any of the other pain-killers I took as needed and always as little as possible, sometimes cutting my use drastically for weeks if my pain was bearable....and with no withdrawal effects.
It is unfortunate that some people have no empathy for heroin addicts because I have met some and they appear to be humans just like me. I also think we can learn from them since opiates are opiates and they have real experience with them.
peace,
farmboy7
Shoreline
04-14-2004, 06:43 PM
Hey farmboy, Because meth has qualities that oxy doesn't but meth has every quality that oxy does, What you experienced was Differential withdrawal, when you switched from meth to oxyC. They could have given you 10 times the amont of OxyContin and it would not have stopped you from going through differencial withdrawal. No matter how much Oxy you take, It's not meth and that's why I experinced withdrawal when I switched from meth to Kadian and why most folks do experience one version of withdrawal when discontinuing it or switching from meth to another med.
Farmboy, I did not intend to imply that you had addiction issues if it came off that way. I just did tons of research on methadone before I started taking it 31/2 years ago. I know how much digging you have to do or digging in the right place to find medical info on the use of meth for chronic pain. If you type meth withdrawal into Google and do a search, you won't find CP issues for about 40 pages.
I switched from Oxy to meth, did a trial of Duragesic, switched back to meth and a few months later switched to Kadioan and then generic LA morphine. Then switched back again. Every time I have switched away from meth I have experienced differential withdrawal. It is quite profound but only last about 3 weeks.
People experience the same problem switching away from Duragesic, first the steps are too large, 50% decreases at several points and secondly Fentanyl has more Kappa activity than any other opiate. The only other drugs in Fentanyls class are Demerol ands the other versions of Fenatnyl used in anesthesiology,ie. Carfentanyl, Suffentanyl and Affentanyl.
So switching away from the patch is usually bumpy unless the doc knows the tricks of the trade.Only expose half of the portion of the patch that is exposed to your skin because what you absorb is based on the amount of transdermal area that touches the skin. If you only remove half the backing and tape it down well, you can effectively create a 1/2 a 25 ugh patch. Making the steps down easier. Using Demi short term because it has Kappa receptor activity too makes sense although long term use of demi causes seizures.
The medical comunity actually thinks that meth withdrawal should be easier because of the slow termination and excretion from your system but does acknowledge it lasts longer but believes it's less severe. The only thing I agree with them on, is that it lasts longer and takes longer to start.If you take OxyC around the clock for a month and you miss a dose of oxy by more than 4 hours and you will likely be shaking like a leaf. Meth is much more forgiving.
When I switched from meth to kadian, I got part way through the titration of kadian but the withdrawal was so unpleaseant I didn't want to simply increase my dose of morphine in hopes of ending the withdrawal. I would have experienced the same thing regardless of my starting dose of kadian, once the meth depletes, It aint fun. But when you have been doing this for 11 years a few bad weeks are worth months or years of relief.
In my long winded post I said I had no empathy for heroin addicts. I will try to explain, I meant no empathy towards their withdrawal experience, It's a choice they made knowing the consequences , so I don't feel empathy for the withdrawal they experience. Secondly there is no doubt a single addict can bring an entire PM practice down, either by ODing or by selling their meds, the doc gets prosecuted and all the patients are out in the cold 700 times more likely to commit suicide than the average joe.
I should have been more clear about what I didn't feel emopethy for. My own brother shot and killed himself over addiction issues surounding a back problem. I understand addiction better than most because I have walked on that side of the tracks myself and got clean in-patient when I was 21.
The thing I was most greatful for was I had not wasted years , even decacdes of my life trying to catch the buzz from something that you will only truly find once. That is, the first time you used and got high on your drug of choice, everything after that is to try to recapture that initial feeling, and it never happens. I have seen family die, friends die, Docs and pharmacists loose their licence . It's not that I don't have empathy for addiction, It's the whining about the unpleaseant consequences of their own actions I have no empathy towards.
Once in recovery I also have a problem with the preeching from the soap box that because they fell "Victim" to addiction, it's obvious nobody can resist the temptation of their drug of choice. With that I don't agree.
There are people that can have a glass of wine every now and then and not turn into a drunk. There are people that have absolutely no problem complying with prescription instructions. Just because Joe blow couldn't handle OxyContin, doesn't negate the good this med can do for many people that are capable of following directions. Like yourself and many others.
Because of my background, which my doc knows of, I look at my PM treatment as the last option and if I screw up I probably won't get a second chance. I know this from my contract, but I didn't need to sign a contract to know my doc wasn't going to belive all the BS stories addicts come up with to replace lost and stolen meds and the ones the cat ate and the dog, the carpet cleaner and all the C-2's stolen from gloveboxes, etc. etc. etc.
Trust me, there isn't a BS excuse to replace meds every doc and pharmacist haven't heard. 60 pills, 2 a day equals 30 days, It's not a tough concept and my meds don't call me to take more.
I'm sorry if it seems we got off on the wrong foot but I don't know you from adam. If you write something I don't agree with I will tell you and why and if we have to agree to disagree that's fine. But what you have experienced actually proves my point when you switched from meth to 3 times the oxy and still went through withdrawal. Not the same kind of withdrawal as cold turkey , but withdrawal because the cosequence of taking opiates around the clock is dependence, which isn't the same as addiction. Addiction is destructive, Nothing about any med I take is destructive, they improve the quality of my life and I'm willing to accept the fact that I'm dependent, Big deal.
Discontinue Paxil cold turkey and see what happens. Are they addicted or dependent? It's not a drug of abuse, There is no pleaseant high, yet stop taking it cold and you're in for a ride.
Anyway, I'm sorry I didn't properly explain my position and you felt offended farmboy, If you have been at this 9 years we probably have alot in common, because there was no such thing as OxyContin 9 years ago. I started years before oxy was on the market and then it took a couple years to take off. You name a non opiate PM modality and I have done it. Somethings are useful and the rest you toss. keep what works, It's certainly better to have more than a handful of pills to deal with your pain.
Good luck and welcome, Dave
Farmboy, I did not intend to imply that you had addiction issues if it came off that way. I just did tons of research on methadone before I started taking it 31/2 years ago. I know how much digging you have to do or digging in the right place to find medical info on the use of meth for chronic pain. If you type meth withdrawal into Google and do a search, you won't find CP issues for about 40 pages.
I switched from Oxy to meth, did a trial of Duragesic, switched back to meth and a few months later switched to Kadioan and then generic LA morphine. Then switched back again. Every time I have switched away from meth I have experienced differential withdrawal. It is quite profound but only last about 3 weeks.
People experience the same problem switching away from Duragesic, first the steps are too large, 50% decreases at several points and secondly Fentanyl has more Kappa activity than any other opiate. The only other drugs in Fentanyls class are Demerol ands the other versions of Fenatnyl used in anesthesiology,ie. Carfentanyl, Suffentanyl and Affentanyl.
So switching away from the patch is usually bumpy unless the doc knows the tricks of the trade.Only expose half of the portion of the patch that is exposed to your skin because what you absorb is based on the amount of transdermal area that touches the skin. If you only remove half the backing and tape it down well, you can effectively create a 1/2 a 25 ugh patch. Making the steps down easier. Using Demi short term because it has Kappa receptor activity too makes sense although long term use of demi causes seizures.
The medical comunity actually thinks that meth withdrawal should be easier because of the slow termination and excretion from your system but does acknowledge it lasts longer but believes it's less severe. The only thing I agree with them on, is that it lasts longer and takes longer to start.If you take OxyC around the clock for a month and you miss a dose of oxy by more than 4 hours and you will likely be shaking like a leaf. Meth is much more forgiving.
When I switched from meth to kadian, I got part way through the titration of kadian but the withdrawal was so unpleaseant I didn't want to simply increase my dose of morphine in hopes of ending the withdrawal. I would have experienced the same thing regardless of my starting dose of kadian, once the meth depletes, It aint fun. But when you have been doing this for 11 years a few bad weeks are worth months or years of relief.
In my long winded post I said I had no empathy for heroin addicts. I will try to explain, I meant no empathy towards their withdrawal experience, It's a choice they made knowing the consequences , so I don't feel empathy for the withdrawal they experience. Secondly there is no doubt a single addict can bring an entire PM practice down, either by ODing or by selling their meds, the doc gets prosecuted and all the patients are out in the cold 700 times more likely to commit suicide than the average joe.
I should have been more clear about what I didn't feel emopethy for. My own brother shot and killed himself over addiction issues surounding a back problem. I understand addiction better than most because I have walked on that side of the tracks myself and got clean in-patient when I was 21.
The thing I was most greatful for was I had not wasted years , even decacdes of my life trying to catch the buzz from something that you will only truly find once. That is, the first time you used and got high on your drug of choice, everything after that is to try to recapture that initial feeling, and it never happens. I have seen family die, friends die, Docs and pharmacists loose their licence . It's not that I don't have empathy for addiction, It's the whining about the unpleaseant consequences of their own actions I have no empathy towards.
Once in recovery I also have a problem with the preeching from the soap box that because they fell "Victim" to addiction, it's obvious nobody can resist the temptation of their drug of choice. With that I don't agree.
There are people that can have a glass of wine every now and then and not turn into a drunk. There are people that have absolutely no problem complying with prescription instructions. Just because Joe blow couldn't handle OxyContin, doesn't negate the good this med can do for many people that are capable of following directions. Like yourself and many others.
Because of my background, which my doc knows of, I look at my PM treatment as the last option and if I screw up I probably won't get a second chance. I know this from my contract, but I didn't need to sign a contract to know my doc wasn't going to belive all the BS stories addicts come up with to replace lost and stolen meds and the ones the cat ate and the dog, the carpet cleaner and all the C-2's stolen from gloveboxes, etc. etc. etc.
Trust me, there isn't a BS excuse to replace meds every doc and pharmacist haven't heard. 60 pills, 2 a day equals 30 days, It's not a tough concept and my meds don't call me to take more.
I'm sorry if it seems we got off on the wrong foot but I don't know you from adam. If you write something I don't agree with I will tell you and why and if we have to agree to disagree that's fine. But what you have experienced actually proves my point when you switched from meth to 3 times the oxy and still went through withdrawal. Not the same kind of withdrawal as cold turkey , but withdrawal because the cosequence of taking opiates around the clock is dependence, which isn't the same as addiction. Addiction is destructive, Nothing about any med I take is destructive, they improve the quality of my life and I'm willing to accept the fact that I'm dependent, Big deal.
Discontinue Paxil cold turkey and see what happens. Are they addicted or dependent? It's not a drug of abuse, There is no pleaseant high, yet stop taking it cold and you're in for a ride.
Anyway, I'm sorry I didn't properly explain my position and you felt offended farmboy, If you have been at this 9 years we probably have alot in common, because there was no such thing as OxyContin 9 years ago. I started years before oxy was on the market and then it took a couple years to take off. You name a non opiate PM modality and I have done it. Somethings are useful and the rest you toss. keep what works, It's certainly better to have more than a handful of pills to deal with your pain.
Good luck and welcome, Dave
farmboy7
04-14-2004, 10:32 PM
Hey shoreline,
Nah, we didn't get off on the wrong foot and no offense taken here. We all have to be pretty thick-skinned if we have made it this far right? I can see from your response to my post why people have respect for you here and that we agree on a lot of things.
But as you can tell methadone is a sore spot for me because just one week ago I was in my 5th day of withdrawal. I still can't figure out why my doc did not direct me to resume my regular dose after he knew what happened and that I was still in bad shape on a smaller dosage. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but just adding vomiting to being delerious can be physically dangerous plus I was bordering on being suicidal partly because I had no idea what was going on.
We also can agree that each opiate has different effects on each person. Many people have told me that they can't tolerate codeine but I used it for years with minimal side effects. Now it seems nothing works for my pain for more than a couple weeks unless dose is increased.
I understand what you are saying about how addicts can make it tougher for people who are in pain to get the medicine they need. Suspicious doctors and more government regulations. I went to a specialist for help and he sat there and told me I was not in that much pain. He refused to look at my x-rays, said he didn't need to. Then he gave me percocet which did nothing for me and my body doesn't seem to like it. Another doctor lectured me for 20 minutes the first time I saw him, telling me I had to exercise, sit properly,blah-blah-blah and that I could not stay on pain-killers forever. Then he said he would look at my x-rays. He came back all excited and asked me if I had seen what a number I had done on my back. I had. Told him the side view was the best and he agreed. Then he wrote out a prescription with 5 refills and told me to come back if I needed more. I didn't need to because he gave me a years supply.
From my reading it is my understanding that when methadone is used to get people off heroin that the primary goal is getting off the heroin and maintaining them from going back to it. The goal is not to eventually stop the methadone also because it often results in failure and resumption of heroin use. If a person can quit heroin and return to society and be productive that should be viewed as success. I read this from one of the originators of methadone maintenace programs.
Now I feel that this thread has been hijacked away from Ken. Sorry Ken! Is everything allright? Have we just got you more mixed up?
peace
farmboy
Nah, we didn't get off on the wrong foot and no offense taken here. We all have to be pretty thick-skinned if we have made it this far right? I can see from your response to my post why people have respect for you here and that we agree on a lot of things.
But as you can tell methadone is a sore spot for me because just one week ago I was in my 5th day of withdrawal. I still can't figure out why my doc did not direct me to resume my regular dose after he knew what happened and that I was still in bad shape on a smaller dosage. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but just adding vomiting to being delerious can be physically dangerous plus I was bordering on being suicidal partly because I had no idea what was going on.
We also can agree that each opiate has different effects on each person. Many people have told me that they can't tolerate codeine but I used it for years with minimal side effects. Now it seems nothing works for my pain for more than a couple weeks unless dose is increased.
I understand what you are saying about how addicts can make it tougher for people who are in pain to get the medicine they need. Suspicious doctors and more government regulations. I went to a specialist for help and he sat there and told me I was not in that much pain. He refused to look at my x-rays, said he didn't need to. Then he gave me percocet which did nothing for me and my body doesn't seem to like it. Another doctor lectured me for 20 minutes the first time I saw him, telling me I had to exercise, sit properly,blah-blah-blah and that I could not stay on pain-killers forever. Then he said he would look at my x-rays. He came back all excited and asked me if I had seen what a number I had done on my back. I had. Told him the side view was the best and he agreed. Then he wrote out a prescription with 5 refills and told me to come back if I needed more. I didn't need to because he gave me a years supply.
From my reading it is my understanding that when methadone is used to get people off heroin that the primary goal is getting off the heroin and maintaining them from going back to it. The goal is not to eventually stop the methadone also because it often results in failure and resumption of heroin use. If a person can quit heroin and return to society and be productive that should be viewed as success. I read this from one of the originators of methadone maintenace programs.
Now I feel that this thread has been hijacked away from Ken. Sorry Ken! Is everything allright? Have we just got you more mixed up?
peace
farmboy
Shoreline
04-15-2004, 10:20 AM
Hey farmboy, No doubt it's a rough ride, and many folks only think about the physical problems of withdrawal, However the depression is quite profound while going through withdrawal. When I switched away from meth my doc did a cold switch, thinking you can hop from one med to the other with no difficulty. It just doesn't work that way with all meds.
Right now I'm considering implanting the intrathecal pump. I'm concerned about what I will go through when I switch but 3 weeks of withdrawal... I can hang. The NP that worked with me through the titration of kadian and withdrawal knows well about the problem and she promised to be there for the next time we switched. Now she's on medical leave for the next 4 months so I really don't know if they will properly taper me down as they increase the IT morphine. I know it needs to be done ,my NP knows it needs to be done but when I go back next week to talk to the doc I'm going to be real clear it needs to be done and schedule the implant right after a med refill so I can do it myself if they aren't open to the idea.
Titration of new meds suck , but with my docs I know there is always light at the end of the tunnel. They won't stop untill I say this is the right dose.
I called medtronics a few days ago to get more info and I'm glad I made the call, Last week they got FDA aproval for test marketing the sychromed 11, It's almost half the size of the old pump and has a larger resevoir. Like all technology, things are getting smaller and it doesn't make sense to create a large pocket for a big pump only to have to reduce the size of the pocket and the risks asociated with doing that when it comes time to replace the pump in 5 or so years. By then they will probably have the sychromed 111 out which will probably be even smaller and more programable.
So I'm hitting the pump implant at the right time IF I can take part in the test marketing of the SM11 pump. I'm waiting to hear from the local medtronics rep who's on vacation.
My understanding is that their are 2 types of aproved use of meth maint for heroin addiction , first is detox, not to last longer than 21 days an not to be repeated more frequently than 30 days after the last attempt to withdrawal from opiates. The second is meth maint. There is no limit on that and you do see folks on MM for 10+ years. The stuff doesn't make you feel good, so It appears to me your simply replacing one addiction for another.
Yes, meth allows them freedom from frequent IV "Dangerous" dosing but at some point during 10 years I think programs should make attempts to detox and not just maintain. We have docs in the US that have no IDEA meth is even used for CP or that they are allowed to prescribe it. If the docs haven't got the word, you can imagine what the general population thinks about meth. I tell folks to tell people your taking Dolophine, that way they don't know what your taking and it's not a med they are interested in because they don't know if it's an NSAID or an opiate. I've seen CP patients that think Meth is an opiate antagonist, It's a pure agonist. So there is alot of misinformnation regarding meth.
As far as docs, Yup we have all had the lectures and been warned about the dangers of opiate abuse and addiction. Surgeons are the worst, when their surgery fails, you become an addict that no surgery could have corrected anyway, forget their hardware snapped within 2 years and the fusions never grew, it was an addiction problem, I've hit that wall with all 3 failed surgerries.
The longer you have been at this the more of the mill tour you have taken.
There is a rising increase in CP patients involved in meth maint because it's their only options. It's certainly not the ideal way to dose meth for CP but when left with no other choice, I guess MM doesn't sound that bad. I was bed ridden after the last attempted fusion. L1-S1 and I've already broken the heads of two screws from this set of hardware.
Without long acting meds I would still be in bed If I was still around. I had a heart attack on my 36th bday, from High BP from years of pain, and I have had PM docs tell me that nobody ever died from pain. The CP population is just 700 times more likely to off themselves though.
The same goes for withdrawal. The medical comunity doesn't see opiate withdrawal as life threatening although deaths do occur, usually at the patients own hand because cold turkey withdrawal and depression is so severe. But suicide isn't the doctors fault. I don't know if I would sleep well knowing the patient I called an addict 6 weeks post op killed themself but I'm not a doc trained to flush their emotions down the toilet when it comes to patients.
The good thing about meth is the tolerance factor, In 3 years I have had 1 increase and that was only after breaking another screw. The other advantage is the long half life, Every other month I have to go on a search on refill day because after 2 years Eckerds just can't seem to rememeber I need 450 tabs every month, even with phone calls 10 days in advance reminding them..So every other month my first dose of meds may not come untill 3-5 pm that day, the half life carries you just fine , you hurt more but it takes days for withdrawal really to wind up after meth disapates from your system.
I have lots of research if you are ever looking for something just ask. Welcome and take care, Dave
Right now I'm considering implanting the intrathecal pump. I'm concerned about what I will go through when I switch but 3 weeks of withdrawal... I can hang. The NP that worked with me through the titration of kadian and withdrawal knows well about the problem and she promised to be there for the next time we switched. Now she's on medical leave for the next 4 months so I really don't know if they will properly taper me down as they increase the IT morphine. I know it needs to be done ,my NP knows it needs to be done but when I go back next week to talk to the doc I'm going to be real clear it needs to be done and schedule the implant right after a med refill so I can do it myself if they aren't open to the idea.
Titration of new meds suck , but with my docs I know there is always light at the end of the tunnel. They won't stop untill I say this is the right dose.
I called medtronics a few days ago to get more info and I'm glad I made the call, Last week they got FDA aproval for test marketing the sychromed 11, It's almost half the size of the old pump and has a larger resevoir. Like all technology, things are getting smaller and it doesn't make sense to create a large pocket for a big pump only to have to reduce the size of the pocket and the risks asociated with doing that when it comes time to replace the pump in 5 or so years. By then they will probably have the sychromed 111 out which will probably be even smaller and more programable.
So I'm hitting the pump implant at the right time IF I can take part in the test marketing of the SM11 pump. I'm waiting to hear from the local medtronics rep who's on vacation.
My understanding is that their are 2 types of aproved use of meth maint for heroin addiction , first is detox, not to last longer than 21 days an not to be repeated more frequently than 30 days after the last attempt to withdrawal from opiates. The second is meth maint. There is no limit on that and you do see folks on MM for 10+ years. The stuff doesn't make you feel good, so It appears to me your simply replacing one addiction for another.
Yes, meth allows them freedom from frequent IV "Dangerous" dosing but at some point during 10 years I think programs should make attempts to detox and not just maintain. We have docs in the US that have no IDEA meth is even used for CP or that they are allowed to prescribe it. If the docs haven't got the word, you can imagine what the general population thinks about meth. I tell folks to tell people your taking Dolophine, that way they don't know what your taking and it's not a med they are interested in because they don't know if it's an NSAID or an opiate. I've seen CP patients that think Meth is an opiate antagonist, It's a pure agonist. So there is alot of misinformnation regarding meth.
As far as docs, Yup we have all had the lectures and been warned about the dangers of opiate abuse and addiction. Surgeons are the worst, when their surgery fails, you become an addict that no surgery could have corrected anyway, forget their hardware snapped within 2 years and the fusions never grew, it was an addiction problem, I've hit that wall with all 3 failed surgerries.
The longer you have been at this the more of the mill tour you have taken.
There is a rising increase in CP patients involved in meth maint because it's their only options. It's certainly not the ideal way to dose meth for CP but when left with no other choice, I guess MM doesn't sound that bad. I was bed ridden after the last attempted fusion. L1-S1 and I've already broken the heads of two screws from this set of hardware.
Without long acting meds I would still be in bed If I was still around. I had a heart attack on my 36th bday, from High BP from years of pain, and I have had PM docs tell me that nobody ever died from pain. The CP population is just 700 times more likely to off themselves though.
The same goes for withdrawal. The medical comunity doesn't see opiate withdrawal as life threatening although deaths do occur, usually at the patients own hand because cold turkey withdrawal and depression is so severe. But suicide isn't the doctors fault. I don't know if I would sleep well knowing the patient I called an addict 6 weeks post op killed themself but I'm not a doc trained to flush their emotions down the toilet when it comes to patients.
The good thing about meth is the tolerance factor, In 3 years I have had 1 increase and that was only after breaking another screw. The other advantage is the long half life, Every other month I have to go on a search on refill day because after 2 years Eckerds just can't seem to rememeber I need 450 tabs every month, even with phone calls 10 days in advance reminding them..So every other month my first dose of meds may not come untill 3-5 pm that day, the half life carries you just fine , you hurt more but it takes days for withdrawal really to wind up after meth disapates from your system.
I have lots of research if you are ever looking for something just ask. Welcome and take care, Dave
khoff
04-15-2004, 11:04 AM
Actually guys, I enjoy reading these posts as I know I will always learn something.
I guess my only question now having read all this, would be a concern on methadone withdrawl should someday I would be able too if the pain went down from a successful surgery/procedure or just time with any type of therapy. Does coming off of methadone have to be so bad? Is there always going to be some type of withdrawl? I ask because I was on serzone and then zoloft for a long time and when I tapered off of them over a few months, I had no side effects at all. Now I know these are different type meds from meth, but does it have to be so bad?
- Ken
I guess my only question now having read all this, would be a concern on methadone withdrawl should someday I would be able too if the pain went down from a successful surgery/procedure or just time with any type of therapy. Does coming off of methadone have to be so bad? Is there always going to be some type of withdrawl? I ask because I was on serzone and then zoloft for a long time and when I tapered off of them over a few months, I had no side effects at all. Now I know these are different type meds from meth, but does it have to be so bad?
- Ken
momofsix
04-15-2004, 12:00 PM
Thank you Ken, for your excellent questions. I am facing the same thing as you (switching from oxy to meth) and am very nervous and have a lot of questions. I can't wait to hear the answer to your last one (does withdrawal have to be so bad?) I don't want to switch and regret it forever.
Shore - I have a few more questions. You talk about the depression aspect of withdrawal. Can short-term antidepressant use help get over that hump? Also, I'm concerned that you say Methadone is much more sedating than oxy. I already feel tired all the time. Is there something you can do about that? Is there a medication you could take to increase energy while on meth?
Linda
Shore - I have a few more questions. You talk about the depression aspect of withdrawal. Can short-term antidepressant use help get over that hump? Also, I'm concerned that you say Methadone is much more sedating than oxy. I already feel tired all the time. Is there something you can do about that? Is there a medication you could take to increase energy while on meth?
Linda
farmboy7
04-15-2004, 03:24 PM
Hi ken and Linda,
I hope I am not making meth. withdrawal worse than it is but that is what happened to me. Could be different for everyone. I think it was worse because of the way it was done and also because I had no idea what was happening. No warning from the doc. I think I would have opted for a taper down method instead and will be attempting that myself soon. The problem for me was the increased oxycodone use did not make up for the loss of the meth. plus I felt I was taking a lot of oxy since it was triple my usual. He also has now offered a subutex/suboxone plan for the withdrawal but I will probably just do the taper.. Methadone does seem to make me more drowsy/tired than other opiates, it was worse when I first started but you get a little used to it over time.
Shore,
Pharmacies! What a joke. You give them the scrip, they look at it and say twenty minutes, you come back and they say,"Oh.we don't have THAT." Walmart doesn't carry anything here anymore,and other pharms. are dropping the opiates too. Too many legal problems thanks to our government. I also worry because I am on a little rock in the middle of the Pacific and we depend on supplies from the mainland. During the last longshoremans strike everyone was stocking up on TP, rice and canned goods. I hope somebody has a stockpile of methadone too!
peace,
farmboy
I hope I am not making meth. withdrawal worse than it is but that is what happened to me. Could be different for everyone. I think it was worse because of the way it was done and also because I had no idea what was happening. No warning from the doc. I think I would have opted for a taper down method instead and will be attempting that myself soon. The problem for me was the increased oxycodone use did not make up for the loss of the meth. plus I felt I was taking a lot of oxy since it was triple my usual. He also has now offered a subutex/suboxone plan for the withdrawal but I will probably just do the taper.. Methadone does seem to make me more drowsy/tired than other opiates, it was worse when I first started but you get a little used to it over time.
Shore,
Pharmacies! What a joke. You give them the scrip, they look at it and say twenty minutes, you come back and they say,"Oh.we don't have THAT." Walmart doesn't carry anything here anymore,and other pharms. are dropping the opiates too. Too many legal problems thanks to our government. I also worry because I am on a little rock in the middle of the Pacific and we depend on supplies from the mainland. During the last longshoremans strike everyone was stocking up on TP, rice and canned goods. I hope somebody has a stockpile of methadone too!
peace,
farmboy
khoff
04-16-2004, 12:34 PM
Farmboy -
I am sorry you had such a difficult time with a withdrawl from meth. I hope you are better now.
My main concern is getting onto a good pain med that controls the pain but allows me to function. I hope I won't have to be on it for life, but should I, then I accept it. So my concerns now are how I would be able to function on meth, Would I end up being too drugged or tired, correct dosage and titrating up, and should I eventually go off, not having to go thru withdrawl.
Ken
I am sorry you had such a difficult time with a withdrawl from meth. I hope you are better now.
My main concern is getting onto a good pain med that controls the pain but allows me to function. I hope I won't have to be on it for life, but should I, then I accept it. So my concerns now are how I would be able to function on meth, Would I end up being too drugged or tired, correct dosage and titrating up, and should I eventually go off, not having to go thru withdrawl.
Ken
Shoreline
04-16-2004, 01:06 PM
Hey Ken, If the side effects aren't to bothersome and you acomadate to them quickly you should be fine to function. Folks on meth maint for addiction can go to work after taking a single dose of 100mgs of meth. Nobody would ever know I take 150 mgs plus the morphine. When yourin pain opiates act very diferently then when your recreating.
As long as your titration is slow and allows you to get used to the meds, It should not hinder your ability to function. If it does, than you may need to consider a different med. The idea of PM is to improve function so if the side effects don't allow you to function your not acomplishing your goals and then you may need to rethink which med is right for you. Be sure to give it a fair trial and allow your body to accomadate to the side effects before giving up on it.
Good luck, Dave
As long as your titration is slow and allows you to get used to the meds, It should not hinder your ability to function. If it does, than you may need to consider a different med. The idea of PM is to improve function so if the side effects don't allow you to function your not acomplishing your goals and then you may need to rethink which med is right for you. Be sure to give it a fair trial and allow your body to accomadate to the side effects before giving up on it.
Good luck, Dave
momofsix
04-16-2004, 01:56 PM
How long would you say is a fair trial? I tend to "panic" when the side effects set in and want to give up right away.
Shoreline
04-16-2004, 03:56 PM
Hey Linda, It takes 5 days of continuous use for your serum level to level out. So you can't even tell if the dose is right until the night of the 5th day. Then, from a safety point of view you should give it a week to accommodate before considering an increase. If you keep increasing say 20% every 2 weeks you have to accommodate to each dose so it may take 6-8 weeks just to get the dose right and then a month for the most bothersome side effects to deminish. Titration is no fun with any med, it just takes a little longer with meth because of the long half life.
The two biggies that are hard to control are sedation and sweating. Sedation gets better with time, and some docs are willing to use stimulants. The new one, Provegil, is less like the amphetamines and a class111 , so your doc may be willing to work with that one if the sedation doesn't get better. But you still have to be careful driving at night, any dull hypnotic type activity will certainly put you to sleep. Watching TV. Sitting through a PTA meeting etc. and it's easy to fall asleep.
The sweating thing...I'm not sure that ever really improves but that's going to depend on the dosage too.
There is no reason that they can't at least get you comfortable within a month but may take a couple more before you really feel accommodated to the side effects. Any potent opiate can cause constipation so you need to use softener/stimulants prophelacticly so you don't end up impacted. However every side effect I mentioned can occur with any opiate, so it's really just trial and error finding the med that works best for you with the least side effects.
Take care and good luck, Dave
The two biggies that are hard to control are sedation and sweating. Sedation gets better with time, and some docs are willing to use stimulants. The new one, Provegil, is less like the amphetamines and a class111 , so your doc may be willing to work with that one if the sedation doesn't get better. But you still have to be careful driving at night, any dull hypnotic type activity will certainly put you to sleep. Watching TV. Sitting through a PTA meeting etc. and it's easy to fall asleep.
The sweating thing...I'm not sure that ever really improves but that's going to depend on the dosage too.
There is no reason that they can't at least get you comfortable within a month but may take a couple more before you really feel accommodated to the side effects. Any potent opiate can cause constipation so you need to use softener/stimulants prophelacticly so you don't end up impacted. However every side effect I mentioned can occur with any opiate, so it's really just trial and error finding the med that works best for you with the least side effects.
Take care and good luck, Dave
pmgal
04-19-2004, 03:08 AM
Hi All~
I've been on methadone 20 mgs daily for a few mos. now. My dr put me on it because I admitted to him I was addicted to vics and percs for 8 yrs. I find myself getting and taking the vics and percs while on the meth I can't seem to stop craving them. Am I not getting enough methadone???? I also find that I can't really feel the vics or percs working for pain as they did before the methadone.
I'd really like to stop craving the vics and percs, and just stick with the methadone, but I'm having a hard time giving them up~ Any advice will HELP!!!!!
Pmgal
I've been on methadone 20 mgs daily for a few mos. now. My dr put me on it because I admitted to him I was addicted to vics and percs for 8 yrs. I find myself getting and taking the vics and percs while on the meth I can't seem to stop craving them. Am I not getting enough methadone???? I also find that I can't really feel the vics or percs working for pain as they did before the methadone.
I'd really like to stop craving the vics and percs, and just stick with the methadone, but I'm having a hard time giving them up~ Any advice will HELP!!!!!
Pmgal
Shoreline
04-19-2004, 09:43 AM
Hi PM gal, Your dealing with the psychological side of addiction. Your don't seem to be going through withdrawal which is great. As far as taking other opiates for pain relief, you still get the analgesic effect. But if you associate the warm fuzzies with pain relief, meth can put a damper on the warm fuzzies from other meds but not interfere with the analgesia the meds provide. So your wasting your time and money on hydro and oxy expecting to get a buzz with meth in your system. Taking more and more to try to capture that buzz won't get you there but it can turn you blue. The whole addiction thing is rediculous anyway. You can spend years trying to recapture the feeling these meds gave you when you first started but you never will because of the tolerance you developed while abusing the meds.
Start counseling. It really is dangerous to abuse meth and I really don't know why a doc would think a patient wouldn't abuse meth when they have abused other opiates. You can get high on meth, It just takes ever increasing doses which is very dangerous. The dose that gave you a nice buzz yesterday, could kill you when you take the exact same dose today because you still have half left in your system from the day before. So although your dose is the same on day 2 as day 1, your serum level is 50% higher.
Seek counseling from an addiction specialist, ideally one that also treats chronic pain. I don't think addicts should suffer from chronic pain but prescribing practices should be modified for the patient that has difficulty complying.More frequent visits, one week supplies etc. As far as still taking percs and hydro, If your doc shopping, I assure you, the last place you want to experience withdrawal is on a cold cement floor in jail. When you start making threats to harm yourself they just strip you and give you a paper gown.
Doc shopping is easier than ever to track with all the data bases and tracking systems in place. Class 2 meds are tracked no matter what state you live in. Continuing to doc shop while being treated by a PM doc that has been kind enough to give you a second chance is very foolish. You could end up with nothing at all for your pain for the rest of your life or worse things can happen, like loosing your spouse, children, home and serving time. In the present climate it's more likely you would be made an example by harsher sentencing. I can't imagine being in so much pain that you need these meds but are still willing to risk being treated for a little buzz.
If you can't find a counselor try an NA meeting or try talking things over at the addiction board. I obviously won't see eye to eye with every addicts point of view but their advice may hold very true in your case where you know you have a problem with compliance. Getting caught doc shopping and going cold turkey off meth when you get booted from the PM docs practice will be very miserable.The doc is not obliged in any way to taper you comfortably off. If he gives you an option, like entering a detox program, he has not abandoned you and you have no recourse.
Try to get to the root of why you have to be blasted to feel like your getting pain relief.Obvously there is more than physical pain going on or you wouldn't be abusing the meds. Deal with those issues and the rest will resolve itself.
Analgesia and euphoria really have nothing to do with one or the other. What is the source of your pain that you need such powerful pain meds? It just doesn't sound like the use of opiates has improved the quality of your life which really negates you as a candidate for opiate therapy. Your very lucky your doc is understanding and I would take this as your last chance to get it right.
Good luck, Dave
Start counseling. It really is dangerous to abuse meth and I really don't know why a doc would think a patient wouldn't abuse meth when they have abused other opiates. You can get high on meth, It just takes ever increasing doses which is very dangerous. The dose that gave you a nice buzz yesterday, could kill you when you take the exact same dose today because you still have half left in your system from the day before. So although your dose is the same on day 2 as day 1, your serum level is 50% higher.
Seek counseling from an addiction specialist, ideally one that also treats chronic pain. I don't think addicts should suffer from chronic pain but prescribing practices should be modified for the patient that has difficulty complying.More frequent visits, one week supplies etc. As far as still taking percs and hydro, If your doc shopping, I assure you, the last place you want to experience withdrawal is on a cold cement floor in jail. When you start making threats to harm yourself they just strip you and give you a paper gown.
Doc shopping is easier than ever to track with all the data bases and tracking systems in place. Class 2 meds are tracked no matter what state you live in. Continuing to doc shop while being treated by a PM doc that has been kind enough to give you a second chance is very foolish. You could end up with nothing at all for your pain for the rest of your life or worse things can happen, like loosing your spouse, children, home and serving time. In the present climate it's more likely you would be made an example by harsher sentencing. I can't imagine being in so much pain that you need these meds but are still willing to risk being treated for a little buzz.
If you can't find a counselor try an NA meeting or try talking things over at the addiction board. I obviously won't see eye to eye with every addicts point of view but their advice may hold very true in your case where you know you have a problem with compliance. Getting caught doc shopping and going cold turkey off meth when you get booted from the PM docs practice will be very miserable.The doc is not obliged in any way to taper you comfortably off. If he gives you an option, like entering a detox program, he has not abandoned you and you have no recourse.
Try to get to the root of why you have to be blasted to feel like your getting pain relief.Obvously there is more than physical pain going on or you wouldn't be abusing the meds. Deal with those issues and the rest will resolve itself.
Analgesia and euphoria really have nothing to do with one or the other. What is the source of your pain that you need such powerful pain meds? It just doesn't sound like the use of opiates has improved the quality of your life which really negates you as a candidate for opiate therapy. Your very lucky your doc is understanding and I would take this as your last chance to get it right.
Good luck, Dave
farmboy7
04-19-2004, 04:39 PM
Hey,
Just thought I would pop in and tell you about my taper-down off methadone.
My usual dose was 3 1/2 per day, so first I went to 3 per day for just 2 days and then down to just 2 1/2 yesterday. I started to feel a little of the withdrawal effects yesterday evening but I had already taken my next dose so it went away quickly. I seem to be tired but able to sleep well so why not enjoy the extra shut eye? Other than that no problems so far. I am taking more oxycodone but that was expected. My goal is to go off the meth and keep the oxy increase to a minimum and I want it to be as quick as possible.
I don't have a set schedule and I know I have cut a lot so far but if I have to take 2 1/2 for 2 weeks now that's OK too. It may take me one month or maybe 6. My pain has been mostly tolerable and it will have to stay there for this to work.
Best luck to everyone.
peace,
farmboy
Just thought I would pop in and tell you about my taper-down off methadone.
My usual dose was 3 1/2 per day, so first I went to 3 per day for just 2 days and then down to just 2 1/2 yesterday. I started to feel a little of the withdrawal effects yesterday evening but I had already taken my next dose so it went away quickly. I seem to be tired but able to sleep well so why not enjoy the extra shut eye? Other than that no problems so far. I am taking more oxycodone but that was expected. My goal is to go off the meth and keep the oxy increase to a minimum and I want it to be as quick as possible.
I don't have a set schedule and I know I have cut a lot so far but if I have to take 2 1/2 for 2 weeks now that's OK too. It may take me one month or maybe 6. My pain has been mostly tolerable and it will have to stay there for this to work.
Best luck to everyone.
peace,
farmboy
pmgal
04-21-2004, 04:14 AM
Hi PM gal, Your dealing with the psychological side of addiction. Your don't seem to be going through withdrawal which is great. As far as taking other opiates for pain relief, you still get the analgesic effect. But if you associate the warm fuzzies with pain relief, meth can put a damper on the warm fuzzies from other meds but not interfere with the analgesia the meds provide. So your wasting your time and money on hydro and oxy expecting to get a buzz with meth in your system. Taking more and more to try to capture that buzz won't get you there but it can turn you blue. The whole addiction thing is rediculous anyway. You can spend years trying to recapture the feeling these meds gave you when you first started but you never will because of the tolerance you developed while abusing the meds.
Start counseling. It really is dangerous to abuse meth and I really don't know why a doc would think a patient wouldn't abuse meth when they have abused other opiates. You can get high on meth, It just takes ever increasing doses which is very dangerous. The dose that gave you a nice buzz yesterday, could kill you when you take the exact same dose today because you still have half left in your system from the day before. So although your dose is the same on day 2 as day 1, your serum level is 50% higher.
Seek counseling from an addiction specialist, ideally one that also treats chronic pain. I don't think addicts should suffer from chronic pain but prescribing practices should be modified for the patient that has difficulty complying.More frequent visits, one week supplies etc. As far as still taking percs and hydro, If your doc shopping, I assure you, the last place you want to experience withdrawal is on a cold cement floor in jail. When you start making threats to harm yourself they just strip you and give you a paper gown.
Doc shopping is easier than ever to track with all the data bases and tracking systems in place. Class 2 meds are tracked no matter what state you live in. Continuing to doc shop while being treated by a PM doc that has been kind enough to give you a second chance is very foolish. You could end up with nothing at all for your pain for the rest of your life or worse things can happen, like loosing your spouse, children, home and serving time. In the present climate it's more likely you would be made an example by harsher sentencing. I can't imagine being in so much pain that you need these meds but are still willing to risk being treated for a little buzz.
If you can't find a counselor try an NA meeting or try talking things over at the addiction board. I obviously won't see eye to eye with every addicts point of view but their advice may hold very true in your case where you know you have a problem with compliance. Getting caught doc shopping and going cold turkey off meth when you get booted from the PM docs practice will be very miserable.The doc is not obliged in any way to taper you comfortably off. If he gives you an option, like entering a detox program, he has not abandoned you and you have no recourse.
Try to get to the root of why you have to be blasted to feel like your getting pain relief.Obvously there is more than physical pain going on or you wouldn't be abusing the meds. Deal with those issues and the rest will resolve itself.
Analgesia and euphoria really have nothing to do with one or the other. What is the source of your pain that you need such powerful pain meds? It just doesn't sound like the use of opiates has improved the quality of your life which really negates you as a candidate for opiate therapy. Your very lucky your doc is understanding and I would take this as your last chance to get it right.
Good luck, Dave
Dave~
I want to thank you for your honesty! I'm so grateful I found this message board!
I was an alcoholic for many years, but got help and quit 9 yrs ago. Then I started having surgeries here and there where I was given pain meds.....so of course I got hooked on them after awhile. I do have alot of pain issues, from my job, injuries ect..
I don't shop for drs. and don't take very many vics daily....maybe 4 or 5 7.5's. I've even asked pharmacist who says it's ok to take 20 mg meth and afew vics aday. what do you think about this??
Start counseling. It really is dangerous to abuse meth and I really don't know why a doc would think a patient wouldn't abuse meth when they have abused other opiates. You can get high on meth, It just takes ever increasing doses which is very dangerous. The dose that gave you a nice buzz yesterday, could kill you when you take the exact same dose today because you still have half left in your system from the day before. So although your dose is the same on day 2 as day 1, your serum level is 50% higher.
Seek counseling from an addiction specialist, ideally one that also treats chronic pain. I don't think addicts should suffer from chronic pain but prescribing practices should be modified for the patient that has difficulty complying.More frequent visits, one week supplies etc. As far as still taking percs and hydro, If your doc shopping, I assure you, the last place you want to experience withdrawal is on a cold cement floor in jail. When you start making threats to harm yourself they just strip you and give you a paper gown.
Doc shopping is easier than ever to track with all the data bases and tracking systems in place. Class 2 meds are tracked no matter what state you live in. Continuing to doc shop while being treated by a PM doc that has been kind enough to give you a second chance is very foolish. You could end up with nothing at all for your pain for the rest of your life or worse things can happen, like loosing your spouse, children, home and serving time. In the present climate it's more likely you would be made an example by harsher sentencing. I can't imagine being in so much pain that you need these meds but are still willing to risk being treated for a little buzz.
If you can't find a counselor try an NA meeting or try talking things over at the addiction board. I obviously won't see eye to eye with every addicts point of view but their advice may hold very true in your case where you know you have a problem with compliance. Getting caught doc shopping and going cold turkey off meth when you get booted from the PM docs practice will be very miserable.The doc is not obliged in any way to taper you comfortably off. If he gives you an option, like entering a detox program, he has not abandoned you and you have no recourse.
Try to get to the root of why you have to be blasted to feel like your getting pain relief.Obvously there is more than physical pain going on or you wouldn't be abusing the meds. Deal with those issues and the rest will resolve itself.
Analgesia and euphoria really have nothing to do with one or the other. What is the source of your pain that you need such powerful pain meds? It just doesn't sound like the use of opiates has improved the quality of your life which really negates you as a candidate for opiate therapy. Your very lucky your doc is understanding and I would take this as your last chance to get it right.
Good luck, Dave
Dave~
I want to thank you for your honesty! I'm so grateful I found this message board!
I was an alcoholic for many years, but got help and quit 9 yrs ago. Then I started having surgeries here and there where I was given pain meds.....so of course I got hooked on them after awhile. I do have alot of pain issues, from my job, injuries ect..
I don't shop for drs. and don't take very many vics daily....maybe 4 or 5 7.5's. I've even asked pharmacist who says it's ok to take 20 mg meth and afew vics aday. what do you think about this??
Shoreline
04-21-2004, 01:48 PM
Using BT meds is fine with meth as long as your only taking them when the pain increases. If a couple vics is how you relax after work then there is a problem. I've been on meth for several years at a much higher dose and have continued to get relief from BT meds
BT =break through pain. Pain that breaks through your base dose. If your PM doc is the one prescribing both Meth and Vics than you have nothing to worrry. As far as doc shopping, If you have a PM doc treating your X apain and you have your GP prescribing Vics for the same pain, all it takes is two docs treating the same problem with opiates to be called a doc shopper.
Many PM docs use contracts that spell this out. Use one pharmacy, do not except pain meds for the same condition he is treatng, etc. If the Vikes are left over from your old treatment plan are you going to be OK with just meth, Does your doc prescribe BT meds or would he to someone that has admitted to having a problem. You just have to ask yourself why your taking BT meds? because the physical pain has risen or simply because you have them.
Ive seen many patients that think because the doc gave them BT meds say 4 Norco a day, that they should take them as part of their PM regemin. If you do this what would you actually do if you fell and your pain level actually did rise. Then you wouldn't have the means to manage any additinal pain.
The last place a CP patients wants to go is the ER when you have increase in pain. You get labeled and treated very poorly most of the time. So save your BT meds for when you actually have an increase in pain that the meth isn't covering it. Only you know if your taking the Vikes because the meth isn't covering enough pain. If that's the case, Better to get your dose correct now than to wait 3 months and ask for an increase. Rapid tolerance to meth doesn't usually occur.
I went almost 2 years on the same dose, switched to morphine for about a year and then switched right back to my previous dose. I have BT meds and I may take one per day or I may take 3 or 4 depending on how much I hurt. But I don't take the same amount of BT med every day because I know I would eventually become tolerant to the effects and have nothing for when the pain did hit the ceiling.
When you reach for the BT meds you really have to ask yourself if your taking them because you hurt more or simply because you want to feel better. I know it kind of sounds the same but feeling good is not the purpose of PM. Increasing your ability to function is the goal.
Good luck and you can stay sober and take opiates. It all has to do with why your taking them and what do they do for you. I know several recovering addicts or alcoholics that now need PM. Their sobriety isn't compromised untll they know they have crossed the line from simply seeking relief from pain and likeing how a med makes you feel.
Take care, Dave
PS. The most common school of thought about BT meds, and this is mentoned in every LA med manufacturers full prescribing info. Is that if you need more than 2 doses of BT meds per day the base med should be increased. Not every doc subscribes to the same school of thought but it's a safe one which doesn't turn your BT meds into part of your daily regemin.
BT =break through pain. Pain that breaks through your base dose. If your PM doc is the one prescribing both Meth and Vics than you have nothing to worrry. As far as doc shopping, If you have a PM doc treating your X apain and you have your GP prescribing Vics for the same pain, all it takes is two docs treating the same problem with opiates to be called a doc shopper.
Many PM docs use contracts that spell this out. Use one pharmacy, do not except pain meds for the same condition he is treatng, etc. If the Vikes are left over from your old treatment plan are you going to be OK with just meth, Does your doc prescribe BT meds or would he to someone that has admitted to having a problem. You just have to ask yourself why your taking BT meds? because the physical pain has risen or simply because you have them.
Ive seen many patients that think because the doc gave them BT meds say 4 Norco a day, that they should take them as part of their PM regemin. If you do this what would you actually do if you fell and your pain level actually did rise. Then you wouldn't have the means to manage any additinal pain.
The last place a CP patients wants to go is the ER when you have increase in pain. You get labeled and treated very poorly most of the time. So save your BT meds for when you actually have an increase in pain that the meth isn't covering it. Only you know if your taking the Vikes because the meth isn't covering enough pain. If that's the case, Better to get your dose correct now than to wait 3 months and ask for an increase. Rapid tolerance to meth doesn't usually occur.
I went almost 2 years on the same dose, switched to morphine for about a year and then switched right back to my previous dose. I have BT meds and I may take one per day or I may take 3 or 4 depending on how much I hurt. But I don't take the same amount of BT med every day because I know I would eventually become tolerant to the effects and have nothing for when the pain did hit the ceiling.
When you reach for the BT meds you really have to ask yourself if your taking them because you hurt more or simply because you want to feel better. I know it kind of sounds the same but feeling good is not the purpose of PM. Increasing your ability to function is the goal.
Good luck and you can stay sober and take opiates. It all has to do with why your taking them and what do they do for you. I know several recovering addicts or alcoholics that now need PM. Their sobriety isn't compromised untll they know they have crossed the line from simply seeking relief from pain and likeing how a med makes you feel.
Take care, Dave
PS. The most common school of thought about BT meds, and this is mentoned in every LA med manufacturers full prescribing info. Is that if you need more than 2 doses of BT meds per day the base med should be increased. Not every doc subscribes to the same school of thought but it's a safe one which doesn't turn your BT meds into part of your daily regemin.
khoff
05-12-2004, 08:44 PM
Well, I have finally given into the fact of taking methadone for chronic back pain. The duragesics (25mcg) were too strong, my doc won't write for oxycontin (and percocet for BT) even though it helps, so meth is what he will write for. I mentioned I maybe moving to Virginia and I called the UVA pain center asking what they do, and they do the same, methadone.
I wonder, can methadone be taken once a day once your up on a regular schedule or do you have to continually take it 3/4 times a day?
And can it be taken over a lifetime or just so many months/years?
Currently on oxycodone 40mg a day (between oxy and perc).
- Ken
I wonder, can methadone be taken once a day once your up on a regular schedule or do you have to continually take it 3/4 times a day?
And can it be taken over a lifetime or just so many months/years?
Currently on oxycodone 40mg a day (between oxy and perc).
- Ken
Shoreline
05-13-2004, 09:51 AM
Hey Ken, Therehave been foks on meth maint for decades and they have studdied the effects of what meth does after prolonged use, which is basically nada. ONly 10% of the population can not take meth, that's the exact same percentage that can't take most forms of opiate pain mediations. With meth it's folks that don't have the cytochrome P450 liver enzyme to break it down.. Grapefruit juice has this enzyme and can boost the effectiveness of meth and many other drugs, It can also decrease the effectiveness of other drugs.
So you can ceratinly tame it long term, Been on it almost 4 years now myself. The only annoying side effect is the profuse swaeting particularly in the summer. That would certainly be dose dependent and there are other factors that effect sweating. Smoking is a big factor. Folks that smoke, sweat more.
I'm glad you were able to contact UVA. When will you be in Charlottesville. I'll be out that way this summer. Mom was just DX with breast cancer and that's were her surgery and treatment will likely take place.
It is comforting to know it's cheap and you don't have to worry about loosing scropt beni's and still being able to afford myour pain meds. The myth about BT meds not working while taking meth is just a myth. You may not catch a buzz but you will recieve all the anelgesic effects of any opiate.
Once a day dosing for Cp wold likely be tough although I have met folks that have gotten away with twice a day. Personally I think you would end up on a higher dose trying to make the anelgesia last up to 12 hours. In acute care it's dosed every 4 and for CP every 6-8 hours. I actually feel it wear off in about 4-5 hours. Not completely off but you do feel the need to redose. I would prefer to avaoid additional side effects from one or two larger doses and try to minimalize side effects with smaller more frequent dosing. I honestly think you will be surprised the the relief meth can offfer.
The pharmacist will know you are not a meth maint patient. MM patients don't get a one month supply to play with and pharmacists know this so you shouldn't have to worry about some dingbat in the pharmacy thinking you are a heroin addict.
Don't let some silly stigma prevent you from findng relief. Meth is also very forgiving. On my refill days I have had to wait until as late as 5pm to get my first dose and haven't felt anything but an increase in pain. Miss a dose of OxyContin by 24 hours and you would be a mess. So meth has lots of advantages in several ways. IT's more forgiving, It's dirt cheap, and you don't wake up playing catch up trying to get your first dose of the day in you.
Good luck, Dave
So you can ceratinly tame it long term, Been on it almost 4 years now myself. The only annoying side effect is the profuse swaeting particularly in the summer. That would certainly be dose dependent and there are other factors that effect sweating. Smoking is a big factor. Folks that smoke, sweat more.
I'm glad you were able to contact UVA. When will you be in Charlottesville. I'll be out that way this summer. Mom was just DX with breast cancer and that's were her surgery and treatment will likely take place.
It is comforting to know it's cheap and you don't have to worry about loosing scropt beni's and still being able to afford myour pain meds. The myth about BT meds not working while taking meth is just a myth. You may not catch a buzz but you will recieve all the anelgesic effects of any opiate.
Once a day dosing for Cp wold likely be tough although I have met folks that have gotten away with twice a day. Personally I think you would end up on a higher dose trying to make the anelgesia last up to 12 hours. In acute care it's dosed every 4 and for CP every 6-8 hours. I actually feel it wear off in about 4-5 hours. Not completely off but you do feel the need to redose. I would prefer to avaoid additional side effects from one or two larger doses and try to minimalize side effects with smaller more frequent dosing. I honestly think you will be surprised the the relief meth can offfer.
The pharmacist will know you are not a meth maint patient. MM patients don't get a one month supply to play with and pharmacists know this so you shouldn't have to worry about some dingbat in the pharmacy thinking you are a heroin addict.
Don't let some silly stigma prevent you from findng relief. Meth is also very forgiving. On my refill days I have had to wait until as late as 5pm to get my first dose and haven't felt anything but an increase in pain. Miss a dose of OxyContin by 24 hours and you would be a mess. So meth has lots of advantages in several ways. IT's more forgiving, It's dirt cheap, and you don't wake up playing catch up trying to get your first dose of the day in you.
Good luck, Dave
khoff
05-13-2004, 10:39 AM
Hey shore -
Once again, thanks for the helpful info. I don't drink grapefruit juice, but man I sure do love those iced teas !
As far as timing, I see my PM doc end of May. I am sure this is what he will Rx (Meth). I am scheduled to be in Va June 6th thru the 13th. It amazed me that the UVA pain center said they do the evals and start your meds if neccessary, but a PCP actually writes them from then on. In NJ, PCP's never write pain meds, they tell you to go to a PM. Go figure!
Too bad about the oxy stigma these days since it does help many people and they will needlessly suffer due to fear and ignorance. But too hard to fight city hall anymore. I probably won't actually start the meth until I return to NJ since I don't want to start anything while traveling. I'll keep the percocets for BT just in case, but whatever it takes to keep going, then so be it.
Never would have imagined this is where I'd be at 43 !!!!!!!!!!
- Ken
Once again, thanks for the helpful info. I don't drink grapefruit juice, but man I sure do love those iced teas !
As far as timing, I see my PM doc end of May. I am sure this is what he will Rx (Meth). I am scheduled to be in Va June 6th thru the 13th. It amazed me that the UVA pain center said they do the evals and start your meds if neccessary, but a PCP actually writes them from then on. In NJ, PCP's never write pain meds, they tell you to go to a PM. Go figure!
Too bad about the oxy stigma these days since it does help many people and they will needlessly suffer due to fear and ignorance. But too hard to fight city hall anymore. I probably won't actually start the meth until I return to NJ since I don't want to start anything while traveling. I'll keep the percocets for BT just in case, but whatever it takes to keep going, then so be it.
Never would have imagined this is where I'd be at 43 !!!!!!!!!!
- Ken
Kayley
05-13-2004, 12:04 PM
Shore, you are an absolute wealth of information! I didn't know about grapefruit juice boosting the effects of methadone. I have been taking dextromethorphan and it has helped alot, which I also learned about from you. Lately though, I've been having a tough time, especially since yesterday when I had to go to a doctor who manipulated me in ways that made my pain go through the roof, and I'm still paying. I'm gonna try the grapefruit juice....Thank you so much!!
Kayley
Kayley
Shoreline
05-13-2004, 02:16 PM
Hey Kayle, There is actually an official grapefruit juice drug interaction website. You should probably check to make sure you don't cause a harmful interaction before procedding. Just as it can raise some serum levels as much as 20% it can lower some too.
Fresh grapefruit works the best though. A half a grapefruit does the trick when your doc doesn't use BT meds.LOL It's been years since I needed a grapefruit and now I take some meds that it's bad to eat grapefruit with.
Be careful and Take care, Dave
Fresh grapefruit works the best though. A half a grapefruit does the trick when your doc doesn't use BT meds.LOL It's been years since I needed a grapefruit and now I take some meds that it's bad to eat grapefruit with.
Be careful and Take care, Dave
momofsix
05-13-2004, 05:24 PM
how about the duragesic patch - does it help for breakthrough with that?
Shoreline
05-14-2004, 04:48 PM
He Linda, Sorry, I checked the Oficial GJDI website. The CYP450 although considered a liver enzyme it effects absorption in the gut wall. I didn't see were it would have any effect on transdermal delivery of medication and it's absorption.
It's a shame when a doc won't use BT meds. With the righ BT meds you could have the relief when you need it and not need to jack your overall dose up during the rest of the time when you don't need extra relief. This would specifically hold true if you had additional pain at night, or upon rising in the morning. That's the only downfall of very LA meds, making rapid adjustments. It doesn't make sense to force a patient into accepting an increase they may only need 10 or 15% of the time.
Hang in their Linda. Well get you straightened out.You should definitely benefit from Dexalone or at least a trial of dextromathorphan or Nemanda for it's NMDA blocking ability or using meth or levodromoran for BT pain for it's NMDA blocking ability.
Good luck, Dave
Many drugs interact with grapefruit juice. Grapefruit segments or an extract of unprocessed grapefruit
cause drug interactions to a similar extent. Seville oranges (used in some marmalades, but not in
commercial orange juice), purnmelos and tangelos may also cause similar interactions. Based on
metabolic pathways of drugs that interact with grapefruit, we can predict other drugs that may have
significant interactions with grapefruit. Grapefruit inhibits metabolism of oral medications by cytochrome
P450 3A4 isoenzymes in the intestinal wall, decreasing the metabolism of affected drugs and
increasing the amount of drug entering the bloodstream. increased drug levels can cause more side
effects and/or toxicity. The interactions are most pronounced for drugs with low oral bioavailability. The
effect of grapefruit on intestinal enzymes is irreversible and persists for up to 72 hours after grapefruit
consumption, until more of the drug metabolizing enzymes are produced. Grapefruit is also an inhibitor
of p-glycoprotein, an efflux pump in intestinal cell wall enterocytes that actively secretes absorbed drug
back into the gut lumen. Organic anion transporting polypeptide (OATP) is another transporter system
affected by grapefruit. Drugs that are significantly handled by p-glycoprotein or OATP may have
decreased absorption when taken with grapefruit, possibly leading to loss of efficacy.
It's a shame when a doc won't use BT meds. With the righ BT meds you could have the relief when you need it and not need to jack your overall dose up during the rest of the time when you don't need extra relief. This would specifically hold true if you had additional pain at night, or upon rising in the morning. That's the only downfall of very LA meds, making rapid adjustments. It doesn't make sense to force a patient into accepting an increase they may only need 10 or 15% of the time.
Hang in their Linda. Well get you straightened out.You should definitely benefit from Dexalone or at least a trial of dextromathorphan or Nemanda for it's NMDA blocking ability or using meth or levodromoran for BT pain for it's NMDA blocking ability.
Good luck, Dave
Many drugs interact with grapefruit juice. Grapefruit segments or an extract of unprocessed grapefruit
cause drug interactions to a similar extent. Seville oranges (used in some marmalades, but not in
commercial orange juice), purnmelos and tangelos may also cause similar interactions. Based on
metabolic pathways of drugs that interact with grapefruit, we can predict other drugs that may have
significant interactions with grapefruit. Grapefruit inhibits metabolism of oral medications by cytochrome
P450 3A4 isoenzymes in the intestinal wall, decreasing the metabolism of affected drugs and
increasing the amount of drug entering the bloodstream. increased drug levels can cause more side
effects and/or toxicity. The interactions are most pronounced for drugs with low oral bioavailability. The
effect of grapefruit on intestinal enzymes is irreversible and persists for up to 72 hours after grapefruit
consumption, until more of the drug metabolizing enzymes are produced. Grapefruit is also an inhibitor
of p-glycoprotein, an efflux pump in intestinal cell wall enterocytes that actively secretes absorbed drug
back into the gut lumen. Organic anion transporting polypeptide (OATP) is another transporter system
affected by grapefruit. Drugs that are significantly handled by p-glycoprotein or OATP may have
decreased absorption when taken with grapefruit, possibly leading to loss of efficacy.
farmboy7
05-19-2004, 08:50 PM
Hello everyone,
I think my methadone experience is on here somewhere but I figured I would tell it again plus give an update. I was giving methadone by my doc after trying just about averything else but still experiencing increasing pain. I was taking 17.5 mg/day for about 6 months with oxycodone for BT pain. My pain continued to increase,kept increasing the BT meds, nausea increased anyway, finally had to quit my job. I assumed that by stopping driving 2 hours daily that my pain would decrease drastically and I would cut out most of the meds. My pain level did decrease some and the AM vomiting stopped and the BT meds decreased but I stayed at the same level of Methadone.
Then my doc decided to take me off the methadone and see what effect that had on the nausea I am still experiencing.(it started before meth) He had me quit cold turkey and triple the oxycodone to make up for it. It was bad from the beginning but on the third day I had a complete meltdown with vomiting and complete distress so I resumed the methadone.
Now I am doing a taper off the meth. I am about half way there but it's not easy. I did a lot of research and most people say methadone is NOT the same as other opiates for withdrawal including many people who said it is the worst and even worse than heroin. I take about 20 mg/day of oxycodone and each week or so I reduce the methadone by 1.125 mg (1/4 pill) and then increase to about 30 mg oxy to make up the dif. Then over the next week I decrease the oxy back to about 20 mg and then I am ready for another reduction on the Meth.
Hope this makes sense, it's starting to thunder so i gotta go!
farmboy
I think my methadone experience is on here somewhere but I figured I would tell it again plus give an update. I was giving methadone by my doc after trying just about averything else but still experiencing increasing pain. I was taking 17.5 mg/day for about 6 months with oxycodone for BT pain. My pain continued to increase,kept increasing the BT meds, nausea increased anyway, finally had to quit my job. I assumed that by stopping driving 2 hours daily that my pain would decrease drastically and I would cut out most of the meds. My pain level did decrease some and the AM vomiting stopped and the BT meds decreased but I stayed at the same level of Methadone.
Then my doc decided to take me off the methadone and see what effect that had on the nausea I am still experiencing.(it started before meth) He had me quit cold turkey and triple the oxycodone to make up for it. It was bad from the beginning but on the third day I had a complete meltdown with vomiting and complete distress so I resumed the methadone.
Now I am doing a taper off the meth. I am about half way there but it's not easy. I did a lot of research and most people say methadone is NOT the same as other opiates for withdrawal including many people who said it is the worst and even worse than heroin. I take about 20 mg/day of oxycodone and each week or so I reduce the methadone by 1.125 mg (1/4 pill) and then increase to about 30 mg oxy to make up the dif. Then over the next week I decrease the oxy back to about 20 mg and then I am ready for another reduction on the Meth.
Hope this makes sense, it's starting to thunder so i gotta go!
farmboy
no patience
05-20-2004, 08:34 AM
Hi ken,
I just joined this board so I could respond to you, so you must feel honored, ha ha.
Anyway, my doctor recently switched me off methadone and increased my oxycodone by triple the amount to make up for it. It did not work! I went into severe withdrawal by the third day, crying like a baby,vomit coming out my nose, the whole bit. My doctor said everyone is different and this should not have happened, but after a lot of reading and talking I am discovering that methadone is considered by a lot of people to be the worst opiate to quit, even worse than heroin. People have told me about tapering down for a YEAR to get to 1mg and still being rough to drop that.
It does work for pain like other opiates and that is why I am taking it. It does not really make you high but the other opiates never really did either, they were busy working on my pain.(crushed vertabrae+)
Anyway, my advice would be to do a google search on *methadone* and *methadone withdrawal* and see what you find. I think that opiates can be used properly for pain if you take them only when you need them for pain. Methadone does not seem to fit that category for me as now I have to take it just to maintain my dependence and not be sick from withdrawal. I used to be able to skip a few days or cut way down if my pain was low, but not anymore.
peace,
farmboy7
i hear you on that fb7 thats why i stopped my tolerance not only did i take it for pain but i had to to feel normal and to be able to function i used to be able to skip days to but that ended pretty fast hope your taper is going well what mgs are you down to now keep in touch kelleigh
I just joined this board so I could respond to you, so you must feel honored, ha ha.
Anyway, my doctor recently switched me off methadone and increased my oxycodone by triple the amount to make up for it. It did not work! I went into severe withdrawal by the third day, crying like a baby,vomit coming out my nose, the whole bit. My doctor said everyone is different and this should not have happened, but after a lot of reading and talking I am discovering that methadone is considered by a lot of people to be the worst opiate to quit, even worse than heroin. People have told me about tapering down for a YEAR to get to 1mg and still being rough to drop that.
It does work for pain like other opiates and that is why I am taking it. It does not really make you high but the other opiates never really did either, they were busy working on my pain.(crushed vertabrae+)
Anyway, my advice would be to do a google search on *methadone* and *methadone withdrawal* and see what you find. I think that opiates can be used properly for pain if you take them only when you need them for pain. Methadone does not seem to fit that category for me as now I have to take it just to maintain my dependence and not be sick from withdrawal. I used to be able to skip a few days or cut way down if my pain was low, but not anymore.
peace,
farmboy7
i hear you on that fb7 thats why i stopped my tolerance not only did i take it for pain but i had to to feel normal and to be able to function i used to be able to skip days to but that ended pretty fast hope your taper is going well what mgs are you down to now keep in touch kelleigh
khoff
05-20-2004, 10:48 AM
This question may have been answered before, but I forgot. Is there a difference between methadone (not methadose) between manufacturers roxanne and mellenkroft ? If so, what ?
Thanks
Ken
Thanks
Ken
Shoreline
05-20-2004, 01:41 PM
Hey Ken, MellenKrodt is both a pharmacuetical wholesaler, meaning they produce bulk meth , bulk morphine, and other bulk active ingredients for sale to other manufacturers that produce pills for retail sale. Mellenkrodt also has a retail division with a huge generic line where they produce and compound their bulk drugs into pills for retail sale. The generic methadone pill that Mellenkrodt produces for sale is called Methadose. Methadose is not a name brand drug. It's a generic equivelent to Dolophine.
It's no different than a company using a trade name like Roxicet for Percocet. Dolophine is the name brand methadone that generics are supposed to be equivelent to. Because Roxane makes the name brand Dolophine, their generic line is much closer as far as any variation of the amount of active ingredient. It would be hard to explain why 4 10 mg generic Roxane meth tabs didn't provide the same relief as 1 40mg Dolophine diskette since they all come from the same company.
The name can be different as long as it has the correct amount of active ingredient to be considered a generic equivelent is in the tablet, capsule or liquid. If the doc writes a script for Percocet and checks generic, You may get Roxicet, Endocet, or something without a trade name like
Oxy 5/325.
Mellenkrodt is the only bulk producer of methadone in the country, so they sell bulk Methadone HCL to Roxanne to compound into their generic 5mg and 10mg methadone tablets and the name brand Dolophine diskettes. But all the meth in the US comes from Mellenkrodt and is then compounded and marketed by other manufacturers
The difference is that the FDA allows a certain percentage of variation in the amount of active ingredient and still calls it equivelent. After going through withdrawal the first time I had to accept the Methadose tablets from the pharmacy, I had my brother who was Qualtity control for Bayer's special blood products annalyze a Methadose tablet. It came back at 8.2 mgs of methadone HCL. Within the FDA's allowable guidelines to still be labeled a 10mg tablet.
The guidlines allow a +15% or -20% variation in active ingredient and still allows the maufacturer to call it a generic equivelent. So any 10mg tablet of any drug could contain betwen 8.0 mgs of active ingredient and 11.5 mgs of active ingredient. This is why cardiologist don't allow their patients to take generics of certain medications. Because they know they are not all created equal.
If your dose is low, loosing a few mgs isn't going to cause a huge problem. But my dose is 150 mgs a day. If I use the Mellenkrodt Methadose I would only get 123 mgs of methadone per day. If Roxane is on the high side of 10 mgs the gap between both products could be as much as 35%. More than enough to cause someone to experience withdrawal.
If you stick with one product, and Roxxane is hard to stick with because amazingly, the only bulk producer of meth in the country has managed to capture 90% of the entire meth retail market.
Hmm. Sounds like a monopoly to me. Slow distribution of bulk meth to your competitors and the company that relies on Mellenkrodt for raw material can no longer fulfill their obligations to the retailers , so retailers change vendors to ensure a constant supply of methadone tablets, whether they are called methadose or methadone. Mellenkrodt can certainly gaurentee on hand quantities when they are the only producer of meth in the country.
The descision to put 8.2 mgs or 10 mgs into each pill is still up to the manufacturer of each tablet as long as they stay within the variations that the FDA allows. Meth is dirt cheap but if you can get an extra pill out of every 50 mgs of meth that's a 20% increase in product using the same amount of raw material.
I went through the same withdrawal a few months ago when I couldn't find anyone with the quantity of Roxane meth I needed. Fortuantely a mom and pop took the mellencrap back and replaced it with Roxxane methadone. Did all that make sense Ken?
If you start with Methadose, just stick with it and you won't notice a difference, because you will have had nothing to compare it too. Personally I would recomend using the Roxanne but there is no gaurentee you will be able to find a constant supply, and going through withdrawal every other month just isn't worth it.
Take care, Dave
It's no different than a company using a trade name like Roxicet for Percocet. Dolophine is the name brand methadone that generics are supposed to be equivelent to. Because Roxane makes the name brand Dolophine, their generic line is much closer as far as any variation of the amount of active ingredient. It would be hard to explain why 4 10 mg generic Roxane meth tabs didn't provide the same relief as 1 40mg Dolophine diskette since they all come from the same company.
The name can be different as long as it has the correct amount of active ingredient to be considered a generic equivelent is in the tablet, capsule or liquid. If the doc writes a script for Percocet and checks generic, You may get Roxicet, Endocet, or something without a trade name like
Oxy 5/325.
Mellenkrodt is the only bulk producer of methadone in the country, so they sell bulk Methadone HCL to Roxanne to compound into their generic 5mg and 10mg methadone tablets and the name brand Dolophine diskettes. But all the meth in the US comes from Mellenkrodt and is then compounded and marketed by other manufacturers
The difference is that the FDA allows a certain percentage of variation in the amount of active ingredient and still calls it equivelent. After going through withdrawal the first time I had to accept the Methadose tablets from the pharmacy, I had my brother who was Qualtity control for Bayer's special blood products annalyze a Methadose tablet. It came back at 8.2 mgs of methadone HCL. Within the FDA's allowable guidelines to still be labeled a 10mg tablet.
The guidlines allow a +15% or -20% variation in active ingredient and still allows the maufacturer to call it a generic equivelent. So any 10mg tablet of any drug could contain betwen 8.0 mgs of active ingredient and 11.5 mgs of active ingredient. This is why cardiologist don't allow their patients to take generics of certain medications. Because they know they are not all created equal.
If your dose is low, loosing a few mgs isn't going to cause a huge problem. But my dose is 150 mgs a day. If I use the Mellenkrodt Methadose I would only get 123 mgs of methadone per day. If Roxane is on the high side of 10 mgs the gap between both products could be as much as 35%. More than enough to cause someone to experience withdrawal.
If you stick with one product, and Roxxane is hard to stick with because amazingly, the only bulk producer of meth in the country has managed to capture 90% of the entire meth retail market.
Hmm. Sounds like a monopoly to me. Slow distribution of bulk meth to your competitors and the company that relies on Mellenkrodt for raw material can no longer fulfill their obligations to the retailers , so retailers change vendors to ensure a constant supply of methadone tablets, whether they are called methadose or methadone. Mellenkrodt can certainly gaurentee on hand quantities when they are the only producer of meth in the country.
The descision to put 8.2 mgs or 10 mgs into each pill is still up to the manufacturer of each tablet as long as they stay within the variations that the FDA allows. Meth is dirt cheap but if you can get an extra pill out of every 50 mgs of meth that's a 20% increase in product using the same amount of raw material.
I went through the same withdrawal a few months ago when I couldn't find anyone with the quantity of Roxane meth I needed. Fortuantely a mom and pop took the mellencrap back and replaced it with Roxxane methadone. Did all that make sense Ken?
If you start with Methadose, just stick with it and you won't notice a difference, because you will have had nothing to compare it too. Personally I would recomend using the Roxanne but there is no gaurentee you will be able to find a constant supply, and going through withdrawal every other month just isn't worth it.
Take care, Dave
khoff
05-20-2004, 03:15 PM
Dave -
Actually yes, I did understand everything you said. And with that, I called pharmacies that are in my plan to find what they carry and the cost. Eckerds does not carry methadone, but CVS does. In fact CVS has all the brand and generics (liquid and oral). I called in Va and asked the CVS ther how much a months worth of meth would cost (assuming 90 - 5mg tabs or 15mg/day) and they said cash cost is around $13.00.
I checked with other CVS stores in other states, and they were exactly the same. So far looks good. When I see my PM doc next week he will probably Rx meth at 5mg/3x to start. I was concerned by a prior post by DaveARNP that said meth is 8 to 10 times stronger than oxy so I will need to be very careful. The narcotic equiv chart shows is at a 1 to 1.5 conversion. So that still leads me to be a little confused on actual strength comparison.
Thanks as always,
Ken
Actually yes, I did understand everything you said. And with that, I called pharmacies that are in my plan to find what they carry and the cost. Eckerds does not carry methadone, but CVS does. In fact CVS has all the brand and generics (liquid and oral). I called in Va and asked the CVS ther how much a months worth of meth would cost (assuming 90 - 5mg tabs or 15mg/day) and they said cash cost is around $13.00.
I checked with other CVS stores in other states, and they were exactly the same. So far looks good. When I see my PM doc next week he will probably Rx meth at 5mg/3x to start. I was concerned by a prior post by DaveARNP that said meth is 8 to 10 times stronger than oxy so I will need to be very careful. The narcotic equiv chart shows is at a 1 to 1.5 conversion. So that still leads me to be a little confused on actual strength comparison.
Thanks as always,
Ken
Shoreline
05-20-2004, 04:31 PM
Hey Ken, The most recent articles I read about meth used for chronic pain do admit that the conversion charts we have seen are not acurate as far as meth. They are simply a single dose compairson. But from what I have read, Most researchers think meth is 5-10 times stronger than Morphine. When I swithced from 120mgs of meth I got better relief at 600 mgs of morphine which was 5x the dose.
Oxy is even stronger than morphine so I don't think I would agree that meth is 8-10 times stronger than Oxy. Now if you using Oxy to try to deter meth withdrawal, which won't work as I described in my new thread to Farmboy, I could see where a misinformed doc would continously increase oxy as they decrease meth to avoid withdrawal, you could easily inflate your oxy dose needlessly.
You also have to remeber How meth works. The half life is 24-30 hours
Day one you take 15 mgs
Day 2 you take 15 plus have 7.5 left from the previous day=22.5,
Day 3 you take 15, have 7.5 from the previous day and have 3.75 from the first=27.25
Day 4 you take 15 mgs have 7.5 from the day before, 3.75 from the day before that and 1.8mg from the first=29mgs
This becomes you stable dose after 4-5 days, so you actually have twice as much in your system than you take every day.
What was your old dose of oxy. What it takes to prevent withdrawal andwhat it takes for anelgesia will be two different numbers, so even if you conversion looks a bit low switching too Methadone, It would still likely prevent you from experincing withdrawal from switching from oxy.
I actually started on Oxy and switched from 120mgs of Oxy to 60 mgs of meth as my starting dose.I experienced no withdrawal but the oxy had never managed my pain and I changed docs as my insurnace plan changed. My new doc didn't have a problem increasing my dose untill I was comfortable and more functional and I ended up at 120 mgs of meth
1:1 and stayed there for 3 years.Convertting too meth from oxy can be one factor and converting from meth to oxy can be a completely different factor but 10 times stronger than Oxy sounds very extreme and I've never seen it in any print but everyone responds differently.
You are sounding more confident about moving to Charlottesville. We don't have CVS here. When Revco was sold it was broken up between Eckerds and CVS. I can get Roxanne from Eckerds here but they use a local jobber to supply their C-2's, I imagine my back up mom and pop store uses the same Jobber.
Good luck, Dave
Oxy is even stronger than morphine so I don't think I would agree that meth is 8-10 times stronger than Oxy. Now if you using Oxy to try to deter meth withdrawal, which won't work as I described in my new thread to Farmboy, I could see where a misinformed doc would continously increase oxy as they decrease meth to avoid withdrawal, you could easily inflate your oxy dose needlessly.
You also have to remeber How meth works. The half life is 24-30 hours
Day one you take 15 mgs
Day 2 you take 15 plus have 7.5 left from the previous day=22.5,
Day 3 you take 15, have 7.5 from the previous day and have 3.75 from the first=27.25
Day 4 you take 15 mgs have 7.5 from the day before, 3.75 from the day before that and 1.8mg from the first=29mgs
This becomes you stable dose after 4-5 days, so you actually have twice as much in your system than you take every day.
What was your old dose of oxy. What it takes to prevent withdrawal andwhat it takes for anelgesia will be two different numbers, so even if you conversion looks a bit low switching too Methadone, It would still likely prevent you from experincing withdrawal from switching from oxy.
I actually started on Oxy and switched from 120mgs of Oxy to 60 mgs of meth as my starting dose.I experienced no withdrawal but the oxy had never managed my pain and I changed docs as my insurnace plan changed. My new doc didn't have a problem increasing my dose untill I was comfortable and more functional and I ended up at 120 mgs of meth
1:1 and stayed there for 3 years.Convertting too meth from oxy can be one factor and converting from meth to oxy can be a completely different factor but 10 times stronger than Oxy sounds very extreme and I've never seen it in any print but everyone responds differently.
You are sounding more confident about moving to Charlottesville. We don't have CVS here. When Revco was sold it was broken up between Eckerds and CVS. I can get Roxanne from Eckerds here but they use a local jobber to supply their C-2's, I imagine my back up mom and pop store uses the same Jobber.
Good luck, Dave
khoff
05-20-2004, 06:16 PM
Hey Dave -
I am now taking about 40-50mg of oxy a day (20mg oxy/2x + 10mg or more perc for BT). It is hard with this med to get stable dosing since my doc doesn't want to Rx it except small doses. Hence, methadone.
Wouldn't meth at 5mg/3x day be similar?
Also, I read your other post to FB7. Not being on meth before so not having to go thru any withdrawl, I am confused. I remember being on an antidepressant for several years. When I discontinued, it took a few months going down in small doses. Granted it is not methadone, but couldn't someone just titrate down to not have withdrawl? Or is withdrawl inherent when deciding to stop or switch to another med?
Thanks
Ken
P.S. - Charlottesville is looking better by the day !
I am now taking about 40-50mg of oxy a day (20mg oxy/2x + 10mg or more perc for BT). It is hard with this med to get stable dosing since my doc doesn't want to Rx it except small doses. Hence, methadone.
Wouldn't meth at 5mg/3x day be similar?
Also, I read your other post to FB7. Not being on meth before so not having to go thru any withdrawl, I am confused. I remember being on an antidepressant for several years. When I discontinued, it took a few months going down in small doses. Granted it is not methadone, but couldn't someone just titrate down to not have withdrawl? Or is withdrawl inherent when deciding to stop or switch to another med?
Thanks
Ken
P.S. - Charlottesville is looking better by the day !
DannDees
05-22-2004, 08:48 AM
sorry but I feel I need to pop in here.
Ken, reading the withdraws of methadone is a whole different story then experiencing them. There was nothing anyone could have told me to prepare me for them. I do not recomend them unless you plan never stopping. I am not going to sugar coat it like a dr. did for me. They say muscle spasms, ha, more like a total loss control over your legs and arms, they fly out of control and the flying comes with severe pain. sleepless nights, ha, ya you can't sleep but along with no sleep your mind just runs and runs and you have no control over it either. You feel like you are literally going insane. Something noone mentions is an overall feeling you get under your skin, scariest sh** I have ever experienced.thought I was dying and my soul was trying to get out of my skin. This is not something I wish on anyone. I am not trying to tell you not to use it. That is your desicion but I had wished someone would have told me this before I started taking methadone.
I have not took a pill since april 15th and I still replay the nightmare over and over in my head and my sleep is still not normal. I went to bed at 1am and was up at 4:30. I do get some normal nights sleep but not always yet.
They say it has no long term effects, I wonder if anyone did a study on the brain..My short term memory is shot..I was only on 10mg a day for 2years.
Just a heads up, I wish I was warned. IMO methadone should be either for life or not at all..but just my opinion
Ken, reading the withdraws of methadone is a whole different story then experiencing them. There was nothing anyone could have told me to prepare me for them. I do not recomend them unless you plan never stopping. I am not going to sugar coat it like a dr. did for me. They say muscle spasms, ha, more like a total loss control over your legs and arms, they fly out of control and the flying comes with severe pain. sleepless nights, ha, ya you can't sleep but along with no sleep your mind just runs and runs and you have no control over it either. You feel like you are literally going insane. Something noone mentions is an overall feeling you get under your skin, scariest sh** I have ever experienced.thought I was dying and my soul was trying to get out of my skin. This is not something I wish on anyone. I am not trying to tell you not to use it. That is your desicion but I had wished someone would have told me this before I started taking methadone.
I have not took a pill since april 15th and I still replay the nightmare over and over in my head and my sleep is still not normal. I went to bed at 1am and was up at 4:30. I do get some normal nights sleep but not always yet.
They say it has no long term effects, I wonder if anyone did a study on the brain..My short term memory is shot..I was only on 10mg a day for 2years.
Just a heads up, I wish I was warned. IMO methadone should be either for life or not at all..but just my opinion
no patience
05-22-2004, 09:17 AM
sorry but I feel I need to pop in here.
Ken, reading the withdraws of methadone is a whole different story then experiencing them. There was nothing anyone could have told me to prepare me for them. I do not recomend them unless you plan never stopping. I am not going to sugar coat it like a dr. did for me. They say muscle spasms, ha, more like a total loss control over your legs and arms, they fly out of control and the flying comes with severe pain. sleepless nights, ha, ya you can't sleep but along with no sleep your mind just runs and runs and you have no control over it either. You feel like you are literally going insane. Something noone mentions is an overall feeling you get under your skin, scariest sh** I have ever experienced.thought I was dying and my soul was trying to get out of my skin. This is not something I wish on anyone. I am not trying to tell you not to use it. That is your desicion but I had wished someone would have told me this before I started taking methadone.
I have not took a pill since april 15th and I still replay the nightmare over and over in my head and my sleep is still not normal. I went to bed at 1am and was up at 4:30. I do get some normal nights sleep but not always yet.
They say it has no long term effects, I wonder if anyone did a study on the brain..My short term memory is shot..I was only on 10mg a day for 2years.
Just a heads up, I wish I was warned. IMO methadone should be either for life or not at all..but just my opinion
i agree deanndees don't you love how the internet info and the dr say there is yawning involved that's my favorite it's more like dragging yourself around by your arms because you have no energy what so ever when nothing was working for my pain my dr said if he put me back on it i would be a lifer like you i wish i was worned before i went on this drug to and i relive the awful nightmare everyday it's just something we will never forget i also still suffer from coming off it i feel like the methadone took apart of me with it and you have to learn alot of things over again like coping w/pain and with life situations that the methadone masked i to believe now that if anyone goes on methadone they should stay on it or not go on it at all our experience was a true to life nightmare i'm sorry to here your still suffering but so happy you made it this far i miss ya have'nt chatted in awhile pop me a post once in awhile ok hugs and prayers kelleigh :angel: :angel: :angel:
Ken, reading the withdraws of methadone is a whole different story then experiencing them. There was nothing anyone could have told me to prepare me for them. I do not recomend them unless you plan never stopping. I am not going to sugar coat it like a dr. did for me. They say muscle spasms, ha, more like a total loss control over your legs and arms, they fly out of control and the flying comes with severe pain. sleepless nights, ha, ya you can't sleep but along with no sleep your mind just runs and runs and you have no control over it either. You feel like you are literally going insane. Something noone mentions is an overall feeling you get under your skin, scariest sh** I have ever experienced.thought I was dying and my soul was trying to get out of my skin. This is not something I wish on anyone. I am not trying to tell you not to use it. That is your desicion but I had wished someone would have told me this before I started taking methadone.
I have not took a pill since april 15th and I still replay the nightmare over and over in my head and my sleep is still not normal. I went to bed at 1am and was up at 4:30. I do get some normal nights sleep but not always yet.
They say it has no long term effects, I wonder if anyone did a study on the brain..My short term memory is shot..I was only on 10mg a day for 2years.
Just a heads up, I wish I was warned. IMO methadone should be either for life or not at all..but just my opinion
i agree deanndees don't you love how the internet info and the dr say there is yawning involved that's my favorite it's more like dragging yourself around by your arms because you have no energy what so ever when nothing was working for my pain my dr said if he put me back on it i would be a lifer like you i wish i was worned before i went on this drug to and i relive the awful nightmare everyday it's just something we will never forget i also still suffer from coming off it i feel like the methadone took apart of me with it and you have to learn alot of things over again like coping w/pain and with life situations that the methadone masked i to believe now that if anyone goes on methadone they should stay on it or not go on it at all our experience was a true to life nightmare i'm sorry to here your still suffering but so happy you made it this far i miss ya have'nt chatted in awhile pop me a post once in awhile ok hugs and prayers kelleigh :angel: :angel: :angel: