Hi all. I posted earlier(See from a Newbie) that I realize was really long. I was hoping to hear from some of you who really have a lot of expertise (like successtory, baxter, others?). Can anyone tell me if the findings on the MRIs/XRays could be causing me to be in this much pain? Should I pursue the discogram? I know from Baxter's postings she thinks it's an excellent diagnostic tool, but with all the stuff I have going on in my back, wouldn't fusion surgery be the answer for all? As you can tell, I'm scared to death of needles in my back (especially when awake!). Hope everyone out there is having a good day today. I've enjoyed getting to know you from a distance, and hope to hear from you!

Oakleygirl~

Good Morning and Welcome! I am sorry I have not responded until now.

I first want to say that fusion is not the answer for all. I am not sure how many posts you have read here on this board or others but you will see that fusion is not always the right way to go.

I want to read your other post before I comment on it. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I am sorry I have not read it yet but had to make this comment first.

I will get back to you in a bit.

Shirl http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif

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Love,
Shirl

History:

1980- Transaxillary recection of 1st rib and division of band (left side)
1982- Diagnostic Laparoscopy
1985- Transaxillary excision of cervical rib (right side)
1991- Laser stapendectomy (right side)
1992- Fractinal D&C
1992- Diagnstic Laparoscopy
1996- Lumbar hemilaminectomy
1999- Left knee arthroscopic surgery
2001- Laparoscopic assisted vaginal hysterectomy
2002- L5-S1 Microdiscectomy
2002- L4-L5, L5-S1 Anterior interbody lumbar fusion with cages and my own bone from left hip for bone graft
2002- Neck problems Surgery??????
2002 Dec 21- C4-5, C5-C6 Anterior Cervical Corpectomy with Fusion and Internal Fixation

Thanks for your reply, Shirl. I have read yours and other posts about fusion and have told my neuro 'No way'. But the pain continues despite exercising except when I do nothing. By the end of a 40 hour work week sitting at the computer, I can do nothing for the weekend but lay down. That is absolutely no way to live.

I look forward to your reply. Sorry my first post was so long. Look forward to your reply, and thanks again!

Hi Oakley Girl, http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif

I did see your other posting, I'm no good at explaining MRI results though.

I do think the discogram is a great diagnostic test, I believe a large percentage of doctors prefer to have this procedure done prior to any fusion surgery.

It may show alot of other problems that the MRI might not pick up, which is what happened in my case.
Maybe things were overlooked when you had your last discectomy ??

The only thing I can suggest now, would be to get the opinion of an Ortho doc, and compare that to what your Neuro is telling you.

I was right where you are now, I had been told I needed a fusion from day one, that was 2 1/2 years ago.
I wasted alot of time and pain on many other procedures, as I wanted no part of a fusion surgery.

I didn't get any pain relief from the other treatments, so I finally decided to have the fusion, rather than to live in pain.

I'm six weeks post-op now, so it's still too soon for me to say if this was a success, but I can tell you that my old pain is gone, I just have a few complications to deal with now, and time will tell as to how I recover.

Please make sure you are 100% sure if you select a fusion, because once you do it, there is no turning back.

Also, not all people have such a terrible recovery period as I did, so don't let my story scare you.

I hope this helps some http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif

I will be around if you have anymore questions.

Take Care,
Baxter http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/love2.gif

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Two level laminectomy fusion L5-S1 & L2-3 done on 12/6/02.
Fifteen inch scar from the very top of butt crack (sorry), to the bra line.
BAK cages, rods & screws.(Titanium)
My pelvic bone was used for grafting.
Praying that the other two discs in between, won't have to be fused later, as I was told it was a possibility, due to the other two discs in between, not being in that great of shape.
Doc didn't want to fuse four levels, unless it is really necessary.
I would hate to repeat the surgery, as the recovery period, is so very painful.
I also have a free fragment in my T11-12 area, that I'm still refusing surgery for, at this point in time.
That surgery is way too dangerous for me to consider, until if affects my being able to walk.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BAXTER:

I was right where you are now, I had been told I needed a fusion from day one, that was 2 1/2 years ago.
I wasted alot of time and pain on many other procedures, as I wanted no part of a fusion surgery.

Baxter, I hope I did this quote thing right, I'm new at all this. My question is, did things get worse because you waited 2 1/2 years for your fusion? You mentioned a lot going on in your signature line, did all that happen right from the start?

Thank you for being on the boards to share your experience with us.

Hi Blue Belle, http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif

You are correct in what you read, I did get worse, alot worse.

The problem I mention in my history as far as the T11-12 free fragment, is not related to my car accident from 7/00.
I was in the middle of epidural blocks for that, when the car accident happened.
It was the other drivers fault.

Yes, I was told from day one that I needed a fusion ASAP, but due to my own fears, I chose to try all of the other treatments available first.
I thought if I could find some relief, it would still be better than a fusion, and I could at least live a better life at that point. Well, that never happened.
It was only a dream http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/bang.gif
I really wanted the artificial disc replacement, but, that procedure would have been too many years off.

I will "try" to make a long story short, my original doc advised me to do the fusion, he originally thought I only had two bad levels, based on my first MRI's and Cat Scans. He refused to to perform a discogram though.
I still refused the fusion at this point.

Then on to another doc, he also refused to do a discogram, and tried a bunch of different blocks; epidurals, SI's, selective nerve blocks, and facets.
None of them helped, so he sent me to a pain management doc, who wanted to implant a spinal cord stimulator, which I also refused.

The reason both docs gave me for refusing the discogram, was that I was refusing the fusion, so why bother, if I didn't take their advice.
This procedure is most often used prior to fusion surgery.
Also, they both said a multi-level discogram is far too painful for a person to tolerate.
Well, that decision should have been mine to make !

Well, back to the pain doc, he did six back to back facet blocks, none of which helped more than a few hours, to a day or two.
At one point, when I had that day or two of relief from one of the facet blocks, he decided it must be a problem with my facet joints.

So, he decided to give the radio-frequency ablation a try.
I the Guinea Pig, agreed, as I thought it would be my magical cure, hell, I had tried everything else, so why not ?

The RFA didn't help at all, at that point, I didn't understand why I was getting worse after all of my treatments, I had 13 procedures total.

At that point, I "really" demanded the discogram.
We proceeded with a four level discogram, and the findings showed I had four bad discs.
The discogram showed so much more than the MRI's and Cat Scans, I was totally amazed at the results, but I wasn't surprised, as I could barely sit or walk at that point.

Two of the vertebrae, were totally "bone on bone" for such a long time, the bone was just wearing away.
All four of the discs had either tears, buldges, or herniations, or a combo of all three things.

I wish I had demanded the discogram, along time ago, in a more forceful manner, as I would have agreed to a fusion 2 1/2 years ago if I knew I was that bad, or was taking a chance on getting worse.

I also had two other opinions from Neuro's during this same time period, the answer from all docs was fusion.

I finally had a new doc who is highly recommended in my area, perform the fusion on 12/6/02.
He doesn't like to fuse four levels, so we fused two, and he tried his best to fix up the other two discs in between, tyring to preserve them, and hoping that they will survive the "domono effect" from the fusions above and below.

My new doc (Ortho) who performed the surgery, is convinced that none of the procedures I had, would have even helped me to begin with, he also said I got worse, due to all of the aggravation on my discs, from all of the wasted procedures I endured.

Yes, I learned a hard lesson, I was stubborn and scared, I'm the one who refused the fusion from day one, but I blame the first two doctors who refused to perform the discogram.

If I had known the discogram was such a great diagnostic test in the first place, I may have decided to do the fusion 2 1/2 years ago, rather than sitting here today recovering.

Now, you know that I can't make a long story short (sorry) http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/round.gif

Well, I hope this makes sense, please let me know if you have any questions.

Have a great day,
Baxter http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/love2.gif



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Two level laminectomy fusion L5-S1 & L2-3 done on 12/6/02.
Fifteen inch scar from the very top of butt crack (sorry), to the bra line.
BAK cages, rods & screws.(Titanium)
My pelvic bone was used for grafting.
Praying that the other two discs in between, won't have to be fused later, as I was told it was a possibility, due to the other two discs in between, not being in that great of shape.
Doc didn't want to fuse four levels, unless it is really necessary.
I would hate to repeat the surgery, as the recovery period, is so very painful.
I also have a free fragment in my T11-12 area, that I'm still refusing surgery for, at this point in time.
That surgery is way too dangerous for me to consider, until if affects my being able to walk.

Baxter,

Thank you for taking time to answer my question and telling me your story. I'm sending big hugs your way.

Hi Oakley, http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif
I replied to you on your other post (From a newbie). I'd like to second what Baxter and others are saying here, though: the discogram is a GREAT diagnostic test. It's worth getting it even despite the pain. And you can get the docs to give you more pain meds if you're scared... just let them know. Enough so you can tell them where it hurts but it won't bother you so much.

And you definitely shouldn't have a fusion if you have't had a discogram first!

Best of luck... I'm sending healing thoughts your way. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif
Telzey

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4 years of back pain
Annular tear L5-S1 diagnosed 3/02 via MRI
IDET 12/2/02
Still a little sore, but getting better all the time!

Thanks for all who replied. It really means a lot to me to finally be able to talk about this stuff to others who have been through it. No one else has any idea what we go through.

I will definitely get a second opinion before choosing the fusion route. When you talk about 'no going back' after fusion, does that mean after fusion, there is nothing else that can be done in that area?

Hi Oakley Girl, http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif

What it means to me; is that I'm stuck with metal in my back for life, (cages, rods, screws) it feels like I have quite a large pipe wrench implanted in my back right now, as well as I'm now not able to have the artificial disc replacement if this fusion doesn't work.

It's not like I can just turn around and have them un-do what was done, my doc said the metal will never be removed, although I have spoken to people that have had to have their hardware removed.
It's just such a big decision to make, please take your time.

If I have a failed fusion, which I sure hope not, I will have to re-do the surgery.

Some fusion patients are fine forever, others need to have repeat surgeries.

I'm praying I'm one of the lucky ones http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/angel.gif

Take Care,
Baxter http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif



------------------
Two level laminectomy fusion L5-S1 & L2-3 done on 12/6/02.
Fifteen inch scar from the very top of butt crack (sorry), to the bra line.
BAK cages, rods & screws.(Titanium)
My pelvic bone was used for grafting.
Praying that the other two discs in between, won't have to be fused later, as I was told it was a possibility, due to the other two discs in between, not being in that great of shape.
Doc didn't want to fuse four levels, unless it is really necessary.
I would hate to repeat the surgery, as the recovery period, is so very painful.
I also have a free fragment in my T11-12 area, that I'm still refusing surgery for, at this point in time.
That surgery is way too dangerous for me to consider, until if affects my being able to walk.

Hi, it's me again, still asking a lot of questions and finally getting closer to what I want to do, I hope. First of all, what is a discography? 2nd, when are you sure if a fusion is approriate? These fusion experiences sound truly life altering. Today I was told I need a microdiscectomy for my herniated disc, but the doc said the disc height was diminished and I may need a fusion later on. Will having the microdiscectomy increase the chances of needing a fusion later?
You are all such strong intelligent people. This is my 1st glimpse into the world of back problems and I am so impressed with the courage and good judgement, and above all, the compassion for others that all of you show.

I have the same pain as you do, due to a rupture disc at the l4 l5 level. I would have the microdiscectomy because I did will with 2 in the past 20 years. Facing another soon. Regarding the disc space, you would only need A fusion if you were in great pain. There are a lote of people with hardly any disc space with mild back pain.
Go with your feeling and you will do well.

Hi, Dutch. Were the repeat discectomies on the same disc or different ones? What caused the new problems?
Isn't there such a thing as a permanent, one time only discectomy (Or microdiscectomy?

Hi Princess Di, http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif

Here is a great link that explains what discography is, it is also referred to as a discogram.
http://www.spine-health.com/topics/diag/lumbdisc/lum02.html

In my opinion, I think anyone facing any type of surgery should have this procedure done.
It shows way better images than MRI's and Cat Scans.
Mine showed many other problems than we had originally thought I had.

There is no way to determine how well you will do with a microdiscectomy vs. fusion, until you have had each one done.
The doctor can't give you an outcome of your recovery, everyone is different.

Either the microdiscectomy will work, or it will not.

If you have the discogram, it may actually show that you need a fusion rather than a microdiscectomy.
(Does this make some sense) ?
This test, may save you alot of aggravation and time.
So, maybe this will help you make up your mind.

You very well may have further damage and not know it, if so, the microdiscectomy may not be be the correct choice, as it can only address certain conditions.

I hope this has helped some, and I wish you well.

I know this is all so confusing, but it is the normal path of treating back pain, it's a long and very confusing road, full of alot of "what if's"

I have had the fusion, and I still have many more "what if's" myself.

Only time will tell.

Take Care,
Baxter http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/love2.gif

------------------
Two level laminectomy fusion L5-S1 & L2-3 done on 12/6/02.
Fifteen inch scar from the very top of butt crack (sorry), to the bra line.
BAK cages, rods & screws.(Titanium)
My pelvic bone was used for grafting.
Praying that the other two discs in between, won't have to be fused later, as I was told it was a possibility, due to the other two discs in between, not being in that great of shape.
Doc didn't want to fuse four levels, unless it is really necessary.
I would hate to repeat the surgery, as the recovery period, is so very painful.
I also have a free fragment in my T11-12 area, that I'm still refusing surgery for, at this point in time.
That surgery is way too dangerous for me to consider, until if affects my being able to walk.

With a discectomy thay only take at the ruptured fragement that came out of the disc that is presssing againts the nerve root. In my case, the disc ruptured again 7 years and 10 years later. No I did not take it easy like I was supposed to, but had fun while it lasted. My disc has degenerated but has never given my to many problems. Only the pain down the leg from the nerve being compressed. If you have a true ruptured disk you disc has been damaged. I seen doctars that say I just need a decompression and other that say a need the level fuised. I have decided to have the decompression.
Nico