Lostdog
06-07-2004, 03:27 PM
Hi All,
I am new to this site & have been reading posts for about a week but now I have a question.My hubby was recently dx as bp but we believe he has been suffering undiagnosed since childhood.Over the last few months the mania has been bad.(The doc is working on finding the right meds.)Most of his 'anger' is directed at me & its very verbally abusive.I am learning to deal & have been doing OK.I really want us to go to counseling also, though.MY question is, What do I tell my kids when they see my hubby being irrational & mean?He is pretty good about controlling himself in front of the kids but sometimes is just rude to them & that I have a hard time dealing with.It seems like nothing nice comes out of his mouth & I wish he would just ignore them & not say anything if he cant be nice.He will just antagonize them & I feel like I have another child to deal with.BUt I can't say anything to him in front of the kids & by the time I get him aside to tell him to "chill" the damage is already done.What do I say to my kids or how do I handle this?I try a 'look" but it just gets ignored or hubbby doesn't get it, cuz he doesn't see the problem.Sometimes I will give him a little grip on the knee or shoulder but it goes unnoticed.I am ready to scream sometimes.We can talk about it & he will go back out to the situation & continue within a few mins.I have tried going to the park or shopping with kids to get them away from him, but I want them to have quality time with their dad.He works all week & I am home with them all day.They need time with him & I need a break sometimes, too.Any suggestions would be great.I hope the meds start working good soon.This is painful.Thanks,
I am new to this site & have been reading posts for about a week but now I have a question.My hubby was recently dx as bp but we believe he has been suffering undiagnosed since childhood.Over the last few months the mania has been bad.(The doc is working on finding the right meds.)Most of his 'anger' is directed at me & its very verbally abusive.I am learning to deal & have been doing OK.I really want us to go to counseling also, though.MY question is, What do I tell my kids when they see my hubby being irrational & mean?He is pretty good about controlling himself in front of the kids but sometimes is just rude to them & that I have a hard time dealing with.It seems like nothing nice comes out of his mouth & I wish he would just ignore them & not say anything if he cant be nice.He will just antagonize them & I feel like I have another child to deal with.BUt I can't say anything to him in front of the kids & by the time I get him aside to tell him to "chill" the damage is already done.What do I say to my kids or how do I handle this?I try a 'look" but it just gets ignored or hubbby doesn't get it, cuz he doesn't see the problem.Sometimes I will give him a little grip on the knee or shoulder but it goes unnoticed.I am ready to scream sometimes.We can talk about it & he will go back out to the situation & continue within a few mins.I have tried going to the park or shopping with kids to get them away from him, but I want them to have quality time with their dad.He works all week & I am home with them all day.They need time with him & I need a break sometimes, too.Any suggestions would be great.I hope the meds start working good soon.This is painful.Thanks,
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apinecone
06-07-2004, 06:56 PM
Always sad to hear of this kind of situation, especially with young'uns-- my empathies! Letting the pdoc/Rx get a chance to take effect seems to be the most appropriate course in your husband's case. As for the talking with your kids (I have 2 in early 20's), I think their age/sex and 'cope-ability' are the most important to consider. Re: those, what are your main concerns?
Lostdog
06-07-2004, 08:09 PM
Dear apinecone,
As far as my concerns.I am most concerned about my kids feeling rejected or unloved.My hubby has always felt unloved by his father,and even as an adult I can see why.(sad)My kids are ages 18, 14, 8, & 6.The 2 oldest are from my 1st marriage but most of their lifes was with their step-dad & they both feel not quite 'good enough' by my hubby.I feel a real sense of being unloved by my hubby.Even though he tells me daily & I do believe he means it, but he just can't show it.That is hard & he doesn't really see it until I have to tell him the terrible things he has said & done to me.I feel guilty for having to relive it with him.It seems when something is said or done it is erased from his mind & those cruel things keep on hurting me.(He never really had affection showed to him as a child either though)I was the first person he says he's ever trusted in life, and that was after years of marriage.
I just don't want my kids to feel this kind of pain & rejection.(Not only do I worry about it from my hubby, but my hubby's father has disowned us & my kids too)I usually say something like "daddys having a bad day today so lets go to the park & let him rest" But they are old enough to know a person only has so many bad days & they want to spend more time with him.Thanks for your response, I am looking for all the help I can get.
As far as my concerns.I am most concerned about my kids feeling rejected or unloved.My hubby has always felt unloved by his father,and even as an adult I can see why.(sad)My kids are ages 18, 14, 8, & 6.The 2 oldest are from my 1st marriage but most of their lifes was with their step-dad & they both feel not quite 'good enough' by my hubby.I feel a real sense of being unloved by my hubby.Even though he tells me daily & I do believe he means it, but he just can't show it.That is hard & he doesn't really see it until I have to tell him the terrible things he has said & done to me.I feel guilty for having to relive it with him.It seems when something is said or done it is erased from his mind & those cruel things keep on hurting me.(He never really had affection showed to him as a child either though)I was the first person he says he's ever trusted in life, and that was after years of marriage.
I just don't want my kids to feel this kind of pain & rejection.(Not only do I worry about it from my hubby, but my hubby's father has disowned us & my kids too)I usually say something like "daddys having a bad day today so lets go to the park & let him rest" But they are old enough to know a person only has so many bad days & they want to spend more time with him.Thanks for your response, I am looking for all the help I can get.
Ruth6:11
06-07-2004, 11:30 PM
You would tailor this to the kids ages, but I would be very upfront that Daddy has a disease. But that instead of his lungs or elbow being affected, his Moods are affected. That unlike you or me he cannot always control his moods and he never means to hurt them. That it's hard to understand, but just to keep it in their mind that Daddy isn't well - that you and Daddy are trying to find the right medicine to help him be calmer. And of course that he loves them very much.
apinecone
06-08-2004, 01:10 AM
Thank you. This has made me appreciate that in addition to your other burdens, you are having to deal with a dilemma that involves what in the medical profession is called "the quality of mercy". The dilemma in your case is that you have the burden of deciding how to trade off the quality of medical care for your husband against your or your children's own personal interests of safety and well-being.
After considering this in your case based on what you have presented, I think that it is important at this point that you adopt a 'clinical' ethic such that if you feel that your or your children's safety or well-being is put at risk by your husband's behavior, then you must choose to protect your personal interest, irrespective of what the outcome might be to his medical interest.
This is profound-- because no one should have to take on such a burden. BTW: It takes significant professional training and experience to deal with this on a continuing basis in serious medical situations. Which is why you must not allow yourself to feel guilty because you do not feel "up to" that standard, because you should not have to deal with this dilemma to begin with. And at some point, even in a marriage, there has to be a limit. Well, I think this is effectively the limit: zero tolerance of any verbal or physical threats to your or your children's safety or well-being. Show me the hospital that has any standard of conduct other than that. The practical result is this: if your husband can't handle that (zero tolerance) then you need to put the burden on his Dr.; and if he can't handle that, then you need to either get a Nurse or find a place for him to convalesce; otherwise, it's 911. I know this sounds drastic but it comes from being 'fierce' toward the end of protecting your and your family's safety and well-being. You can build a life on that but not on the quicksand of having to continually live with this kind of dilemma. And I know that it also involves a trade off in terms of the nature of your love, but, I'm truly sorry to have to say: read your own words re: that.
After considering this in your case based on what you have presented, I think that it is important at this point that you adopt a 'clinical' ethic such that if you feel that your or your children's safety or well-being is put at risk by your husband's behavior, then you must choose to protect your personal interest, irrespective of what the outcome might be to his medical interest.
This is profound-- because no one should have to take on such a burden. BTW: It takes significant professional training and experience to deal with this on a continuing basis in serious medical situations. Which is why you must not allow yourself to feel guilty because you do not feel "up to" that standard, because you should not have to deal with this dilemma to begin with. And at some point, even in a marriage, there has to be a limit. Well, I think this is effectively the limit: zero tolerance of any verbal or physical threats to your or your children's safety or well-being. Show me the hospital that has any standard of conduct other than that. The practical result is this: if your husband can't handle that (zero tolerance) then you need to put the burden on his Dr.; and if he can't handle that, then you need to either get a Nurse or find a place for him to convalesce; otherwise, it's 911. I know this sounds drastic but it comes from being 'fierce' toward the end of protecting your and your family's safety and well-being. You can build a life on that but not on the quicksand of having to continually live with this kind of dilemma. And I know that it also involves a trade off in terms of the nature of your love, but, I'm truly sorry to have to say: read your own words re: that.
Lostdog
06-08-2004, 02:55 PM
Dear apinecone,
Wow, It's like you are reading my mind.I have been doing" whatever it takes" for the past few months, but more recently had made a decision that 'enough is enough'.I have come to realize that my hubbby is ultimately in control of this illness NOT me & he has to start making the right decisions for all of our sakes.I had told him I will not hesitate to contact the sheriff's dept. if he is out of control w/ me again.I do not deserve this treatment.I realize he has a problem, but I should not suffer from it.Thank you so much for making me understand that what I am feeling IS OK, & I don't need to be the one to feel guilty.Noone else in our family is aware of my hubby's dx, except my parents, who are supportive, but live 200+ miles away.His family is not aware, but I think should be told so we can have a support system.My hubbby doesn't seem to see how bad he is behaving, is this a normal part of not being properly medicated?Will he ever really understand it?I have documented some issues in a diary, but how do I protect myself? He is good at "fabricating" stories & I know will say whatever he needs to to blame me.I feel guilty sometimes feeling like I am conspiring against my hubby,but I tell myself I am protecting both him & I from his illness,& its NOT against him.I would never take advantage of my hubbby or his condition or use it against him, but I do feel like I need to protect myself & my kids.It is so hard, I truly love my husband.I hope he can start helping himself.He has been blowing it off for so long now.He tells me he will this time.(fingers crossed)Thanks so much for you advice, it truly means alot.
P.S. Ruth , thank you for your response, I like the way you explained that, I think my kids can handle that & I hate to make things up I like to be as truthful as possible with them,with out scaring them.
Wow, It's like you are reading my mind.I have been doing" whatever it takes" for the past few months, but more recently had made a decision that 'enough is enough'.I have come to realize that my hubbby is ultimately in control of this illness NOT me & he has to start making the right decisions for all of our sakes.I had told him I will not hesitate to contact the sheriff's dept. if he is out of control w/ me again.I do not deserve this treatment.I realize he has a problem, but I should not suffer from it.Thank you so much for making me understand that what I am feeling IS OK, & I don't need to be the one to feel guilty.Noone else in our family is aware of my hubby's dx, except my parents, who are supportive, but live 200+ miles away.His family is not aware, but I think should be told so we can have a support system.My hubbby doesn't seem to see how bad he is behaving, is this a normal part of not being properly medicated?Will he ever really understand it?I have documented some issues in a diary, but how do I protect myself? He is good at "fabricating" stories & I know will say whatever he needs to to blame me.I feel guilty sometimes feeling like I am conspiring against my hubby,but I tell myself I am protecting both him & I from his illness,& its NOT against him.I would never take advantage of my hubbby or his condition or use it against him, but I do feel like I need to protect myself & my kids.It is so hard, I truly love my husband.I hope he can start helping himself.He has been blowing it off for so long now.He tells me he will this time.(fingers crossed)Thanks so much for you advice, it truly means alot.
P.S. Ruth , thank you for your response, I like the way you explained that, I think my kids can handle that & I hate to make things up I like to be as truthful as possible with them,with out scaring them.
Lostdog
06-08-2004, 03:33 PM
By the way,
I wanted to say that my previous post has sounded like I ultimately want to hold my hubbby more responsible more so than his doc.The reason is the doc has been trying with my hubby.He has ordered blood work to monitor his meds, took him off 1 because of an increase in his blood sugar level(a med known to cause diabetes,zyprexa I think).But my hubby is not vigilant in taking his meds or going to get the blood work done or even keeping his appts for follow up visits.The doc has sent him to more than 1 counsellor(SP) but my hubby stops going,etc.I believe the primary doc is trying his best, maybe my hubby needs a psychiatrist.He was seen by 1 for 10 mins & he said "no" to bipolar but my hubbby only told him what he wanted.The primary doc is the one that says bipolar(my hubby was more honest with him).I really like the primary doc, he really listens.It seems like the psychologists & psych docs care less.Do you think a family doc is able to handle this condition, maybe I need to vocalize more of my concerns to him.I like that he asks me questions about my hubby's condition, too.Is the family doc the way to go, if my hubby trusts him most?I have suggested joint counselling also.My hubby was in for anger mgmnt on his own before.(He didn't stay).Is my husband ultimately the one to get help for himself or this expecting too much?
I wanted to say that my previous post has sounded like I ultimately want to hold my hubbby more responsible more so than his doc.The reason is the doc has been trying with my hubby.He has ordered blood work to monitor his meds, took him off 1 because of an increase in his blood sugar level(a med known to cause diabetes,zyprexa I think).But my hubby is not vigilant in taking his meds or going to get the blood work done or even keeping his appts for follow up visits.The doc has sent him to more than 1 counsellor(SP) but my hubby stops going,etc.I believe the primary doc is trying his best, maybe my hubby needs a psychiatrist.He was seen by 1 for 10 mins & he said "no" to bipolar but my hubbby only told him what he wanted.The primary doc is the one that says bipolar(my hubby was more honest with him).I really like the primary doc, he really listens.It seems like the psychologists & psych docs care less.Do you think a family doc is able to handle this condition, maybe I need to vocalize more of my concerns to him.I like that he asks me questions about my hubby's condition, too.Is the family doc the way to go, if my hubby trusts him most?I have suggested joint counselling also.My hubby was in for anger mgmnt on his own before.(He didn't stay).Is my husband ultimately the one to get help for himself or this expecting too much?
Ruth6:11
06-08-2004, 08:37 PM
To be honest, it is expecting too much for your husband to seek help on his own. One of the "symptoms" of Bipolar Disorder is that we think we are Just Fine, thank you very much! When help is urgently needed the new laws have made it nearly impossible to press help on us - unless we are in danger of harming ourselves or someone else.
Also, I have seen only my Family Practice physician for 8 - 10 yrs. now.
But I was already stabilized on meds and was compliant (took my meds without a problem).
There is definitely a trade off though if your husband TRUSTS this doctor. A psychiatrist would have a better grasp of the mood stabilizers/anti-depressants, etc.
(beware of anti-depressants that are in the SSRI class), but your husband may go more willingly to the family doc. A tough one....
Also, I have seen only my Family Practice physician for 8 - 10 yrs. now.
But I was already stabilized on meds and was compliant (took my meds without a problem).
There is definitely a trade off though if your husband TRUSTS this doctor. A psychiatrist would have a better grasp of the mood stabilizers/anti-depressants, etc.
(beware of anti-depressants that are in the SSRI class), but your husband may go more willingly to the family doc. A tough one....
apinecone
06-09-2004, 12:32 AM
Having a hard time with the "Quote" thingie, so I'll just try to get my main message down. Thanks for your positive feedback, esp. because of the 'fierce'love aspect under the circumstances. But like I said it's profound.
I can see how easy it must be for you to miss your SELF in this situation: both your little kids and your big kid are a mega-handful AND you are very loving AND you really value and are willing to give alot of yourself to provide quality care. So, this message is a no-brainer: make sure you are doing the best you can to provide for your own strength to do this. I'm sure you do a good job but I say this more because I think you are at risk of "getting under the power curve", so to speak.
In case you're not familiar with this term, it means that one is operating at an insufficient level of achievement relative to the what is needed to succeed. So, being on or above the power curve of SELF strength, so to speak, is requisite to your being successful at achieving the goals you have for THEIR health [and happiness]. I mean, if your going to be selfish, err way on the side of self STRENGTH, you know? ;)
Ergo, make sure you have a heart-to-heart with your SELF and do what you need to be strong enough. [+ Don't think you're odd because you talk with your SELF often about this, but you might have to be :cool: about it.]
So, my message is only 3 main words: Love, Fierce and Strong. :)
I can see how easy it must be for you to miss your SELF in this situation: both your little kids and your big kid are a mega-handful AND you are very loving AND you really value and are willing to give alot of yourself to provide quality care. So, this message is a no-brainer: make sure you are doing the best you can to provide for your own strength to do this. I'm sure you do a good job but I say this more because I think you are at risk of "getting under the power curve", so to speak.
In case you're not familiar with this term, it means that one is operating at an insufficient level of achievement relative to the what is needed to succeed. So, being on or above the power curve of SELF strength, so to speak, is requisite to your being successful at achieving the goals you have for THEIR health [and happiness]. I mean, if your going to be selfish, err way on the side of self STRENGTH, you know? ;)
Ergo, make sure you have a heart-to-heart with your SELF and do what you need to be strong enough. [+ Don't think you're odd because you talk with your SELF often about this, but you might have to be :cool: about it.]
So, my message is only 3 main words: Love, Fierce and Strong. :)
Lostdog
06-09-2004, 10:31 AM
Although my hubby's official diagnosis has only come recently, this has been going on for 5 years.(We believe the bp has been there since childhood though).Three of those years with the belief by me & his doc that it was bi-polar.But my hubby has only recently chose to get help.Here's why.He was cycling monthly.(He cycles very quickly from what I have read).He was on prozac for depression for those 5 years, but after being put on neurontin for nerve pain,his condition went into a chronic state of mania.The doc thought the neurontin would help w/ the bp along with the nerve pain.(I believe it was docs way of trying to help my hubbby's bp even though he wasn't looking for it).He stopped the prozac because he thought it made him emotionless.The mania continued.Then he finally decided to get help.He could not take it anymore.I am actually greatful now that the neurontin had such a bad affect on him.It helped him see a little bit more of what we were seeing.He says he truly believes he has bp,that is what frustrates me.He doesn't seem to be in denial anymore.He just doesn't give it a priority.His health never has been to him.His lack of motivation & lack of concern for himself bother me.Sorry for rattling on, this forum is my only escape.I appreciate the "ears" & "voices". Thank you
apinecone
06-09-2004, 05:34 PM
"after being put on neurontin for nerve pain,his condition went into a chronic state of mania"
>> Had you mentioned Neurontin before? If so, I'm really sorry I missed it, because I had a negative experience with it, and should've/would've sent you an alert-- every time I see it mentioned on the boards I do.
I didn't have a head "ache" but had some transient light-headedness that spooked me. I would be willing to go over details if you think that would help.
"He doesn't seem to be in denial anymore.He just doesn't give it a priority."
>> It is essential to not be in denial, so whatever you can do to turn "seems" into "is" ASAP, the better. I think the basic steps or stages are: no longer in denial, accepting-->accepted, proactive. Maybe you're hubby has has been 'spooked', too. Sounds like maybe. If so, then I think he would be ready (although maybe not admit it (out loud (to you))) to go to the next step. My counselor and pdoc helped my 'unsnarl' some worries 'driving' my reluctance, eg:
*not used to taking meds and so am forgetful, or am simply forgetful
*reduced self-esteem/pride [esp. re: kids],
*reluctance about taking meds in general or at all,
*fear of dependency,
*don't trust what drug companies say about 'non-addictive'
*inter-drug interactions
*food-drug interactions
*can't exercise while on drugs
*bad experience with side-effects (usually this is 2nd hand experience but might by 1st-hand, esp if negatively reinforced like my Neurontin reaction
*living with 'drugged' feeling
*might make things worse in unforeseen ways
*not convinced they are actually helping,
*longer-term effects (eg heart, liver)
I think that the reason trust is important is because people are either afraid or embarrassed (for feeling 'stupid') to ask these questions or afraid of the answers or just don't know what all to ask or know what to ask but forget.
Since your hubby's pdoc seems conscientious, maybe you can put some extra heat under him to get your hubby in contact with a really effective pdoc or one who can by their pdoc network?
+ Maybe you should beat the bushes a bit at this point: Do you have any friends in the medical field, like a Nurse who is a friend of the family or a friend of a friend? I really trust Nurses alot, esp. ones who have exp. in this area.
+ Even if you know someone who works in a hospital and can network to a good psychiatric nurse who would be willing to give you a trustworthy tip. + also your local mental health association, as I think Ruth suggested, or someone who is associated or knows someone who is or was helped there. Or even the visiting nurse's association.
>> Had you mentioned Neurontin before? If so, I'm really sorry I missed it, because I had a negative experience with it, and should've/would've sent you an alert-- every time I see it mentioned on the boards I do.
I didn't have a head "ache" but had some transient light-headedness that spooked me. I would be willing to go over details if you think that would help.
"He doesn't seem to be in denial anymore.He just doesn't give it a priority."
>> It is essential to not be in denial, so whatever you can do to turn "seems" into "is" ASAP, the better. I think the basic steps or stages are: no longer in denial, accepting-->accepted, proactive. Maybe you're hubby has has been 'spooked', too. Sounds like maybe. If so, then I think he would be ready (although maybe not admit it (out loud (to you))) to go to the next step. My counselor and pdoc helped my 'unsnarl' some worries 'driving' my reluctance, eg:
*not used to taking meds and so am forgetful, or am simply forgetful
*reduced self-esteem/pride [esp. re: kids],
*reluctance about taking meds in general or at all,
*fear of dependency,
*don't trust what drug companies say about 'non-addictive'
*inter-drug interactions
*food-drug interactions
*can't exercise while on drugs
*bad experience with side-effects (usually this is 2nd hand experience but might by 1st-hand, esp if negatively reinforced like my Neurontin reaction
*living with 'drugged' feeling
*might make things worse in unforeseen ways
*not convinced they are actually helping,
*longer-term effects (eg heart, liver)
I think that the reason trust is important is because people are either afraid or embarrassed (for feeling 'stupid') to ask these questions or afraid of the answers or just don't know what all to ask or know what to ask but forget.
Since your hubby's pdoc seems conscientious, maybe you can put some extra heat under him to get your hubby in contact with a really effective pdoc or one who can by their pdoc network?
+ Maybe you should beat the bushes a bit at this point: Do you have any friends in the medical field, like a Nurse who is a friend of the family or a friend of a friend? I really trust Nurses alot, esp. ones who have exp. in this area.
+ Even if you know someone who works in a hospital and can network to a good psychiatric nurse who would be willing to give you a trustworthy tip. + also your local mental health association, as I think Ruth suggested, or someone who is associated or knows someone who is or was helped there. Or even the visiting nurse's association.
Lostdog
06-09-2004, 08:04 PM
Wow those reluctancies(sp) all sound like my hubby's.Of course add to the fact that he is also a bit of a hyperchondriac.He always has eaten bad food or has whatever is going around.This is an issue of jokes in our house & he is getting better.Even he thinks its funny.But I see your point of why he may have reluntancy issues.I never really considered those, but they definately come into play.I get more answers & help from forum members than I do my hubby. He feels the same way, but has a hard time verbalizing it to me.But I understand.
Ironically, one of our very best friends is a psych center nurse.We had considered talking to her.My hubbby also has to get over the "stigma" society tends to put on these things. Unfortunately it bothers him alot.I think if he can work past that too, it should help.I see some baby steps & I hang onto those & have been diligant in "staying out his way" when necessary.He has been really trying hard & I see improvement.Just today he came home from work & told me he was thinking he really needs to treat me a lot better & get help for his problems & get his life in order.He even sayed he would get his blood work tomorrow :D .He has been putting it off for a while.I am hopeful.
Ironically, one of our very best friends is a psych center nurse.We had considered talking to her.My hubbby also has to get over the "stigma" society tends to put on these things. Unfortunately it bothers him alot.I think if he can work past that too, it should help.I see some baby steps & I hang onto those & have been diligant in "staying out his way" when necessary.He has been really trying hard & I see improvement.Just today he came home from work & told me he was thinking he really needs to treat me a lot better & get help for his problems & get his life in order.He even sayed he would get his blood work tomorrow :D .He has been putting it off for a while.I am hopeful.
apinecone
06-09-2004, 11:17 PM
This sounds like it's on a progressive track! :) But one thing you said made me take note: "whatever is going around". There is a connection of these kinds of disorders to 'auto-immune' system problems, in particular strep, as in strep throat. Basically, an auto-immune system deficiency can trigger various bio-chemical conditions that would not be active otherwise. And as a general condition can cause sensitivity to certain meds. There are reports of various related neurological flareups like rashes, hives, etc. that are indicative of this kind of interaction. I'm not saying this is what is going on in your hubby's case but that there are some delicate balances that can be upset by a combination of meds, auto-immune or other problems, stress, etc. and bingo! My sister and I both have problems with "airline air conditioning" because it recycles air that seems to cause nasopharyngal problems like tonsillitis and strep or hayfever-like problems. I also am allergic to beestings, which is another vulnerability. So, these things can all be operative [or not :confused: , which is an unsettling part of this whole area].
Well, I hope that you all can keep moving forward and build as much ++++ energy as you can!
Well, I hope that you all can keep moving forward and build as much ++++ energy as you can!