paparuss5
06-21-2004, 02:35 PM
I have a damaged nerve in my spine, caused by lifting something too heavy while in the service in WWII. My right leg started hurting in 1971 and is still hurting today - every day in the big toe area and now is practically down the whole leg, including the sciatic nerve. Have had surgery, no help. Been to Mayo Clinic who called it "damaged nerve root" Have tried TNS and Implant of Spinal Chord Stimulator. Doesn't help much now. Takes the edge off for a short period, but I think it just substitures one kind of pain with another, therefore the stimulator ends up being a different kind of pain, making me feel better for awhile. It's hard to explain. Is there ANYONE that has ever tried an acupuncture specialist for something similar to this? I have been told sometimes they can help, but it is not lasting - isn't covered by insurance and difficult to find one with good reputation, etc. My earlier research has led me away from one for several reasons. There is so much pain in this country, of all kinds, it makes me wonder why there isn't more information available? That is - if their procedures work. It seems reasonable, doesn't it? PLEASE, could some of you out their give me some opinions or your experiences with this old kind of pain relief treatment, good or bad? Frankly I am afraid of additional damage and/or spending money that I don't have for nothing.
I would be most grateful. Thanks any who responds, in advance.
paparuss5
I would be most grateful. Thanks any who responds, in advance.
paparuss5
Sponsor
Shoreline
06-21-2004, 06:09 PM
Hey pappy, It's just like any other modality, It helps some and not others. MY brother got great relief from acupuncture, He would come home and sleep for hours after a session. It is something that's more of a maint type thing.
More than anything It's a matter of a doc having the touch. Much like trigger point injections. Anyone can learn the meridians and proper placement, but there is more to it than inserting a needle 2.2 cm left of the axial and transverse plain junction. They learn mapping or the body, but not all map makers and readers pick up the gentle suttlties of every different patient.
It's best to find one recomended by a patient. Don't let race determine your confidence, Being of any specific decent doesn't make one doc better at acupuncture than the other, Yes it's an eastern art, but it doesn't mean you can't find a westerner that has the touch and it doesn't mean all easterners do.
I know cases that absolutely prove that's true. An asian doc had given acupuncture such a bad name in my brothers town that patients literally had to be talked into letting someone else give it a shot. My brothers western doc change the mind of a small comunity about acupuncture after an eastern doc destroyed most peoples confidence or willingnes to even try again.
Trigger point injections are the same. You can learn the spots and learn where not to inject, but it comes down to a matter of having that touch.
If the practioneer is an MD you may be surprised and your insurance may cover it. Many alternative therapies and non FDA aproved therapies are covered. Chiropractic has become more and more accepted as a form of physical therapy and vists are covered by most insurance, up to the same number of vists they will pay each year for regular PT. IF it works well, you will find a way. If you never try, you will never know.
Good luck, Dave
If you haven't tried it, it's worth trying.
More than anything It's a matter of a doc having the touch. Much like trigger point injections. Anyone can learn the meridians and proper placement, but there is more to it than inserting a needle 2.2 cm left of the axial and transverse plain junction. They learn mapping or the body, but not all map makers and readers pick up the gentle suttlties of every different patient.
It's best to find one recomended by a patient. Don't let race determine your confidence, Being of any specific decent doesn't make one doc better at acupuncture than the other, Yes it's an eastern art, but it doesn't mean you can't find a westerner that has the touch and it doesn't mean all easterners do.
I know cases that absolutely prove that's true. An asian doc had given acupuncture such a bad name in my brothers town that patients literally had to be talked into letting someone else give it a shot. My brothers western doc change the mind of a small comunity about acupuncture after an eastern doc destroyed most peoples confidence or willingnes to even try again.
Trigger point injections are the same. You can learn the spots and learn where not to inject, but it comes down to a matter of having that touch.
If the practioneer is an MD you may be surprised and your insurance may cover it. Many alternative therapies and non FDA aproved therapies are covered. Chiropractic has become more and more accepted as a form of physical therapy and vists are covered by most insurance, up to the same number of vists they will pay each year for regular PT. IF it works well, you will find a way. If you never try, you will never know.
Good luck, Dave
If you haven't tried it, it's worth trying.
delilah1963
06-22-2004, 02:24 PM
This is my 3rd time trying to respond! I hope it takes.
I have neck pain and TMJ disorder which causes headaches, facial pain, neck, shoulder pain.
I've had acu. before, with no results. I had gone to a chiro that was certified to perform acu. Two years later I am trying another doc. One that only performs acupuncture. I have had 25 treatments. I notice some improvement, but no "cure" yet. I met a man in his office that was bringing his wife in for treatments. He said he went to him for lower back pain and it took about 25 treatments but that after that he never had back pain again (5 years before). He said the problem is people give up too soon. Understandable since it is expensive. Other people claim he is a miracle worker and they had exhausted all their options, but that this man healed them. I met another man that was going to help his kidneys functions. He went over 50 times, spent over 3K and it never did anything for him.
The doc I go to is a 75 YO old doc that only performs (for 40 years now) acupuncture. I decided to try it again because, well, epidurals are the latest craze, which I tried, which was temporary, then I read about lasting damage they could cause. I've had enough lasting damage. I wanted to try a route that is completely reversible. Acu. is 2,000 years old. It's still here. I felt that held some weight. I go to the acu. 2-3 x week, chiro 2x/wk. Ice, heat, relaxation...It's a big investment in time and money. Most days I feel better than I did before, but not cured.
My advice is similar to Shore's. You won't know unless you try. If you're in Florida, he has 3 offices in South Florida, one in Boca Raton, one in Sunrise, and one in West Palm Beach. I don't think I can post his name, but if you type in acupuncture and those 3 cities in a search engine, you may find him. If you're anywhere else, look for someone who specializes in it, not one that just took a week long certification course. If you don't start noticing some relief quickly, move on and find another. I felt pain free the first day I had it. It returned, but no meds for a day was something for me.
This guy uses LOTS of needles, then hooks up certain sets of them w/mini jumper cables and turns on microamps. My tissue becomes the "closed circuit". It is uncomfortable at first, but w/in 15 minutes I am asleep (treatments run 40-60 minutes). It is $60 a visit. The first two weeks I was exhausted...falling asleep in the middle of the day. That subsided and now I feel energized, but the pain has not been totally eliminated, yet.
I wish you well.
Del.
I have neck pain and TMJ disorder which causes headaches, facial pain, neck, shoulder pain.
I've had acu. before, with no results. I had gone to a chiro that was certified to perform acu. Two years later I am trying another doc. One that only performs acupuncture. I have had 25 treatments. I notice some improvement, but no "cure" yet. I met a man in his office that was bringing his wife in for treatments. He said he went to him for lower back pain and it took about 25 treatments but that after that he never had back pain again (5 years before). He said the problem is people give up too soon. Understandable since it is expensive. Other people claim he is a miracle worker and they had exhausted all their options, but that this man healed them. I met another man that was going to help his kidneys functions. He went over 50 times, spent over 3K and it never did anything for him.
The doc I go to is a 75 YO old doc that only performs (for 40 years now) acupuncture. I decided to try it again because, well, epidurals are the latest craze, which I tried, which was temporary, then I read about lasting damage they could cause. I've had enough lasting damage. I wanted to try a route that is completely reversible. Acu. is 2,000 years old. It's still here. I felt that held some weight. I go to the acu. 2-3 x week, chiro 2x/wk. Ice, heat, relaxation...It's a big investment in time and money. Most days I feel better than I did before, but not cured.
My advice is similar to Shore's. You won't know unless you try. If you're in Florida, he has 3 offices in South Florida, one in Boca Raton, one in Sunrise, and one in West Palm Beach. I don't think I can post his name, but if you type in acupuncture and those 3 cities in a search engine, you may find him. If you're anywhere else, look for someone who specializes in it, not one that just took a week long certification course. If you don't start noticing some relief quickly, move on and find another. I felt pain free the first day I had it. It returned, but no meds for a day was something for me.
This guy uses LOTS of needles, then hooks up certain sets of them w/mini jumper cables and turns on microamps. My tissue becomes the "closed circuit". It is uncomfortable at first, but w/in 15 minutes I am asleep (treatments run 40-60 minutes). It is $60 a visit. The first two weeks I was exhausted...falling asleep in the middle of the day. That subsided and now I feel energized, but the pain has not been totally eliminated, yet.
I wish you well.
Del.
Shoreline
06-22-2004, 03:59 PM
Hi Del,What you describing is a combination of acupuncture and a modality called TINS, Unlike TENS which doesn't rech deap tissue, using the needles and low amps allows deeper stimulation and like he descrbed "renewing or reinforcing the natural circuits or meridians. I have had TINS, and I've done acupuncture but never both, I also have a TENS unit. The tens unit didn't take long to max out out at every setting and no longer worked.
The acupuncturist I saw also said you have to give it at least 4-6 treatments to see if will be effective. The guy that did TINS was a physiatrist and was fed patients from a large ortho group for all their EMG studies and TINS treatment. The doc claimed to a Pain management doc, which anyone with a script pad or a modality to relieve pain can do, But The physiatrists believed that he could manage any and all pain with enough TINS and at that point I at had already seen several PM docs that had the same basic idea, Opiates were bad, the right antiD or modality could manage any and all pain.
I do believe there are truly gifted practioneers of acupuncture just as there are truly gifted other docs. It took me a dozen different PM docs and 3 surgeries to find a group of docs that could pretty much offer any modality you can think of but never insisted you continue a therapy that didn't work.
I did the long acting opiate route for several years after trying every non opiate method offered or heard of, untill changes in the mechanics of my spine and failed hardware required something more invasive, "the pump"
I kind of lok at pain management as a bell curve, each patient falls somewhere on it based on their level of pain, exposure and tolerance to opiates "Pain med needs" and condition. Even if you have a pump or ause LA opiates, It doesn't mean you can't benefit or reduce your intake of meds with alternative modalities like AC or TINS.
The sciatic nerve is just one particular nerve of many that run down your legs originating from the Lumbar spine. Different levels effect different parts of the legs and feet. The sciatic may be the big toe nerve, But I haven't been able to load a dermatome map in several months which shows what nerves run down what paths to the feat.
Pain that runs down the leg to the big toe may very well be the sciatic nerve, then agan it may be from a different nerve branch stemming from a different level of the lumbar spine.Sciatica can be cause by several differnt problems, The sciatic never pases throgh the glutious max and minimus and periformis as most lumbar nerves do. Spasms of these muscles can squeeze a nerve and produce the described symptoms.
Surgey may not be the answer, acupunture, trigger point injections or TP presssure, TINS and other methods to release the spasm to stop the muscles the nerves pass through from contracting and putting pressure on that specific nerve causing radiculopothy may very well offer great relief. Not trying some of these minimally invsive modalities and going straight to the script pad would be a shame if something with less of a trade such as dependence could really help, It would be a shame not to try.
Good luck, Dave
The acupuncturist I saw also said you have to give it at least 4-6 treatments to see if will be effective. The guy that did TINS was a physiatrist and was fed patients from a large ortho group for all their EMG studies and TINS treatment. The doc claimed to a Pain management doc, which anyone with a script pad or a modality to relieve pain can do, But The physiatrists believed that he could manage any and all pain with enough TINS and at that point I at had already seen several PM docs that had the same basic idea, Opiates were bad, the right antiD or modality could manage any and all pain.
I do believe there are truly gifted practioneers of acupuncture just as there are truly gifted other docs. It took me a dozen different PM docs and 3 surgeries to find a group of docs that could pretty much offer any modality you can think of but never insisted you continue a therapy that didn't work.
I did the long acting opiate route for several years after trying every non opiate method offered or heard of, untill changes in the mechanics of my spine and failed hardware required something more invasive, "the pump"
I kind of lok at pain management as a bell curve, each patient falls somewhere on it based on their level of pain, exposure and tolerance to opiates "Pain med needs" and condition. Even if you have a pump or ause LA opiates, It doesn't mean you can't benefit or reduce your intake of meds with alternative modalities like AC or TINS.
The sciatic nerve is just one particular nerve of many that run down your legs originating from the Lumbar spine. Different levels effect different parts of the legs and feet. The sciatic may be the big toe nerve, But I haven't been able to load a dermatome map in several months which shows what nerves run down what paths to the feat.
Pain that runs down the leg to the big toe may very well be the sciatic nerve, then agan it may be from a different nerve branch stemming from a different level of the lumbar spine.Sciatica can be cause by several differnt problems, The sciatic never pases throgh the glutious max and minimus and periformis as most lumbar nerves do. Spasms of these muscles can squeeze a nerve and produce the described symptoms.
Surgey may not be the answer, acupunture, trigger point injections or TP presssure, TINS and other methods to release the spasm to stop the muscles the nerves pass through from contracting and putting pressure on that specific nerve causing radiculopothy may very well offer great relief. Not trying some of these minimally invsive modalities and going straight to the script pad would be a shame if something with less of a trade such as dependence could really help, It would be a shame not to try.
Good luck, Dave
delilah1963
06-22-2004, 05:53 PM
Hi Dave and Paparuss,
Interesting. I knew of TENS, but never made the connection that that was what was happening at a deeper level. I forgot something else this doc does in addition to the needles and the microamps...infrared heat.
It's an acupuncture trifecta.
LOL
Lucky me.
Be good to yourself.
Del
Interesting. I knew of TENS, but never made the connection that that was what was happening at a deeper level. I forgot something else this doc does in addition to the needles and the microamps...infrared heat.
It's an acupuncture trifecta.
LOL
Lucky me.
Be good to yourself.
Del
paparuss5
06-23-2004, 01:20 PM
Thanks, Delilah1963 and Shoreline. I appreciate your responses. Have a question to either of you. I have often said I would do anything to get some relief from this long lasting pain. I must admit, though, that we have limited funds, so there is a limit to what I could afford. Do you all know whether there is any coverage/help I could count on from Medicare. I also also have heart disease, having had three heart attacks - six bypasses, etc., and I have diabetes, type II, which is about to jump to insulin dependent. I just got out of hospital two weeks ago from the last heart attack. I will be 78 in 2 months. Sorry to drop this information now. Should have shared that on my first post. In addition to travel expenses and such, it could be much too expensive to pursue this based on what you all have disclosed, such as the Florida Doctor. I live close to Tulsa, Ok. Now, if you would be so kind as to responding to the questions relative to financial assistance from Medicare and my supplimental insurance, I would be grateful. I have looked around in the area and there are no acupunturists listed, so I more than likely would have to go back East or far West to find a qualified doctor.
Thanks again for your past and any help in the future.
Best Regards,
Paparuss5
Thanks again for your past and any help in the future.
Best Regards,
Paparuss5
delilah1963
06-24-2004, 09:22 AM
Paparuss,
You have endured so much, I am truly sorry for your burdens. I am 40 and still able to work, so I cannot comment on the help (or lack thereof) that Medicare could provide.
Perhaps your best bet would be to look in the Yellow pages for a chiropractor that has a multi-approach office that can provide you a number of modalities that could offer you some relief (including Acupuncture). Then again, I don't know Medicare's policies on chiro either.
Shore may have a better idea. Wish I could offer more for you. Just wishing you less pain, Paparuss
Best,
Del
You have endured so much, I am truly sorry for your burdens. I am 40 and still able to work, so I cannot comment on the help (or lack thereof) that Medicare could provide.
Perhaps your best bet would be to look in the Yellow pages for a chiropractor that has a multi-approach office that can provide you a number of modalities that could offer you some relief (including Acupuncture). Then again, I don't know Medicare's policies on chiro either.
Shore may have a better idea. Wish I could offer more for you. Just wishing you less pain, Paparuss
Best,
Del
twisten
06-24-2004, 12:48 PM
I am in Canada so I can't give you any advice on what your medicare will pay. I've tried accupuncture and tens units for my various conditions. The accupuncture did absolutely nothing. The tens units helped my mid back pain but really aggravated my lower back pain. My doctor recently suggested I try accupressure. She says it is different from accupuncture so she is looking for a doc close to me who performs it. I have yet to research it, haven't really had time, but she says it will NOT aggravate any of my conditions. So I will probably give it a shot. Anyone who has any experience with this?
paparuss5
06-27-2004, 12:34 PM
Thank you Twisten for your response to my post. Sounds like you have as many or more problems than I. Hope your search for an Acupressure person nets you some help and relief. I know something about acupressure. My eldest daughter does some of it to help various friends and relatives. She tried it on me one year when she was visiting. It felt great when she found the right pressure points, but sad to say, it wasn't long lasting, for me. She did a lot of reading and studying on the subject. Though she is quite knowledgeable, she doesn't do this professionally. Wish she did because she would sure give you a try. She lives in California.
Again, thanks for your feedback on acupunture. I have concluded, as I did once before when I checked it out before the internet, to just continue living with it, but will continue keeping my eyes open and my ears to the information hiway.
Best of luck.
Paparuss5
Again, thanks for your feedback on acupunture. I have concluded, as I did once before when I checked it out before the internet, to just continue living with it, but will continue keeping my eyes open and my ears to the information hiway.
Best of luck.
Paparuss5
Shoreline
06-28-2004, 09:33 AM
Hey pappa, If trhe practioneer is an MD it woulkd likely be covered, The sure way to find out is to call your medicare providor or call the acupunturtist. It's likely covered under part B the same way PT is covered, # vists per year, X copay, etc. You do want to find out what it costs before you jump in. There is nothing worse than sacrificing a modality that works due to cost. It's a shame so many of us have to do this with medication and modalities, Pshych help with a 50% copay is also out of the question for me and we all certainly have some degree of reactive depression caused by pain and loss of function. It doesn't neccesarrily mean you have a brain chemical deficiancy that needs to be replaced or stimulated. It would be abnormal not be be depressed by pain and loss.
IKnow the limited funds thing, A chiropractor taught me and my wife how to do acupressure, Perhaps there is someone in the area that could do the same for you.
Good luck and give medicare a call, That's what they invented redial for.LOL
Take care, Dave
IKnow the limited funds thing, A chiropractor taught me and my wife how to do acupressure, Perhaps there is someone in the area that could do the same for you.
Good luck and give medicare a call, That's what they invented redial for.LOL
Take care, Dave