rahod
07-31-2004, 10:29 PM
http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/content/newsRoom/bannerNews/PC.pdf
Sponsor
zip2play
08-01-2004, 10:43 AM
Good morning Rahod,
I demand 20 points in the game of life for having finished the 37 page .pdf.
My only quibble was the emphasis put on CRESTOR'S differential effect on HDL-C (as opposed to Lipitor.)
AZ report dismal +2% to 6% HDL-C with atorvastatin and I KNOW I got a 25% increase in 30 days with 20 mg. Lipitor.
Other than that a good read.
Hey guy, you're a good researcher. Can you see what you can dig up as to the link between statins and myalgia. Not the incidence, but rather the CAUSATIVE rationale. I think it's real and simply cannot find what it is about the reduction of cholesterol (or the mevalonate precurser) that HURTS. Can it have to do with alternate chemicals that are produced INSTEAD of the normal pathways. Or does the statin inhibit OTHER enzymes than just the Hmg_CoA. Enzymes perhaps that the muscles need for proper functioning?
Perhaps, I'll never know?
(Proximate reason for this is reawakened concern is that my one weeek without Lipitor trial has decreased the pain in my shoulder- I THINK!:D:D...and I haven't taken a SINGLE placebo:D:D)
More on that later.
I demand 20 points in the game of life for having finished the 37 page .pdf.
My only quibble was the emphasis put on CRESTOR'S differential effect on HDL-C (as opposed to Lipitor.)
AZ report dismal +2% to 6% HDL-C with atorvastatin and I KNOW I got a 25% increase in 30 days with 20 mg. Lipitor.
Other than that a good read.
Hey guy, you're a good researcher. Can you see what you can dig up as to the link between statins and myalgia. Not the incidence, but rather the CAUSATIVE rationale. I think it's real and simply cannot find what it is about the reduction of cholesterol (or the mevalonate precurser) that HURTS. Can it have to do with alternate chemicals that are produced INSTEAD of the normal pathways. Or does the statin inhibit OTHER enzymes than just the Hmg_CoA. Enzymes perhaps that the muscles need for proper functioning?
Perhaps, I'll never know?
(Proximate reason for this is reawakened concern is that my one weeek without Lipitor trial has decreased the pain in my shoulder- I THINK!:D:D...and I haven't taken a SINGLE placebo:D:D)
More on that later.
zip2play
08-01-2004, 12:02 PM
Deleted a duplicate- sorry!
arkie6
08-01-2004, 06:36 PM
...Can you see what you can dig up as to the link between statins and myalgia. Not the incidence, but rather the CAUSATIVE rationale. I think it's real and simply cannot find what it is about the reduction of cholesterol (or the mevalonate precurser) that HURTS. Can it have to do with alternate chemicals that are produced INSTEAD of the normal pathways. Or does the statin inhibit OTHER enzymes than just the Hmg_CoA. Enzymes perhaps that the muscles need for proper functioning?
The answer is likely statin induced Co-Q10 depletion.
Here is a cut-and-paste on the subject:
How Statins Work:
The process begins with acetyl-CoA, a two-carbon molecule sometimes referred to as the "building block of life." Three acetyl-CoA molecules combine to form six-carbon hydroxymethyl glutaric acid (HMG). The step from HMG to mevalonate requires an enzyme, HMG-CoA reductase. Statin drugs work by inhibiting this enzyme--hence the formal name of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors. Herein lies the potential for numerous side effects, because statin drugs inhibit not just the production of cholesterol, but a whole family of intermediary substances, many if not all of which have important biochemical functions in their own right.
Mevalonic kinase is the enzyme that facilitates the next step beyond HMG-CoA reductase.
Cholesterol is one of three end products in the mevalonate chain. The two others are ubiquinone and dilochol. Ubiquinone or Co-Enzyme Q10 is a critical cellular nutrient biosynthesized in the mitochondria. It plays a role in ATP production in the cells and functions as an electron carrier to cytochrome oxidase, our main respiratory enzyme. The heart requires high levels of Co-Q10. A form of Co-Q10 called ubiquinone is found in all cell membranes where it plays a role in maintaining membrane integrity so critical to nerve conduction and muscle integrity. Co-Q10 is also vital to the formation of elastin and collagen. Side effects of Co-Q10 deficiency include muscle wasting leading to weakness and severe back pain, heart failure, neuropathy and inflammation of the tendons and ligaments.
The most common side effect is muscle pain and weakness, a condition called rhabdomyolysis, most likely due to the depletion of Co-Q10, a nutrient that supports muscle function. The test for muscle wasting or rhabdomyolysis is elevated levels of a chemical called creatine kinase (CK). But many people experience pain and fatigue even though they have normal CK levels.
The answer is likely statin induced Co-Q10 depletion.
Here is a cut-and-paste on the subject:
How Statins Work:
The process begins with acetyl-CoA, a two-carbon molecule sometimes referred to as the "building block of life." Three acetyl-CoA molecules combine to form six-carbon hydroxymethyl glutaric acid (HMG). The step from HMG to mevalonate requires an enzyme, HMG-CoA reductase. Statin drugs work by inhibiting this enzyme--hence the formal name of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors. Herein lies the potential for numerous side effects, because statin drugs inhibit not just the production of cholesterol, but a whole family of intermediary substances, many if not all of which have important biochemical functions in their own right.
Mevalonic kinase is the enzyme that facilitates the next step beyond HMG-CoA reductase.
Cholesterol is one of three end products in the mevalonate chain. The two others are ubiquinone and dilochol. Ubiquinone or Co-Enzyme Q10 is a critical cellular nutrient biosynthesized in the mitochondria. It plays a role in ATP production in the cells and functions as an electron carrier to cytochrome oxidase, our main respiratory enzyme. The heart requires high levels of Co-Q10. A form of Co-Q10 called ubiquinone is found in all cell membranes where it plays a role in maintaining membrane integrity so critical to nerve conduction and muscle integrity. Co-Q10 is also vital to the formation of elastin and collagen. Side effects of Co-Q10 deficiency include muscle wasting leading to weakness and severe back pain, heart failure, neuropathy and inflammation of the tendons and ligaments.
The most common side effect is muscle pain and weakness, a condition called rhabdomyolysis, most likely due to the depletion of Co-Q10, a nutrient that supports muscle function. The test for muscle wasting or rhabdomyolysis is elevated levels of a chemical called creatine kinase (CK). But many people experience pain and fatigue even though they have normal CK levels.
rahod
08-01-2004, 07:01 PM
Hey guy, you're a good researcher. Can you see what you can dig up as to the link between statins and myalgia. Not the incidence, but rather the CAUSATIVE rationale. I think it's real and simply cannot find what it is about the reduction of cholesterol (or the mevalonate precurser) that HURTS. Can it have to do with alternate chemicals that are produced INSTEAD of the normal pathways. Or does the statin inhibit OTHER enzymes than just the Hmg_CoA. Enzymes perhaps that the muscles need for proper functioning?
Perhaps, I'll never know?
(Proximate reason for this is reawakened concern is that my one weeek without Lipitor trial has decreased the pain in my shoulder- I THINK!:D:D...and I haven't taken a SINGLE placebo:D:D)
More on that later.
I don't have an answer for you on that. but consider this......In that paper they summarized the incidence of "Adverse Events" while taking the various statins vs PLACEBO. Guess what? For both categories of 1)ANY adverse event and 2)adverse events ATTRIBUTED TO THE STATIN, the % of events with the statins (including Crestor) were LESS than placebo! Food for thought ;) .
Perhaps, I'll never know?
(Proximate reason for this is reawakened concern is that my one weeek without Lipitor trial has decreased the pain in my shoulder- I THINK!:D:D...and I haven't taken a SINGLE placebo:D:D)
More on that later.
I don't have an answer for you on that. but consider this......In that paper they summarized the incidence of "Adverse Events" while taking the various statins vs PLACEBO. Guess what? For both categories of 1)ANY adverse event and 2)adverse events ATTRIBUTED TO THE STATIN, the % of events with the statins (including Crestor) were LESS than placebo! Food for thought ;) .
zip2play
08-03-2004, 11:16 AM
rahod,
Unfortunately, I simply DO NOT BELIEVE any of the charts on ANY DRUG that delineate the number of adverse events...they are quite simply UNMITIGATED LIES.
For a REALLY good laugh, not how the effect of placebo changes for a particular condition like INFECTION or GASTRIC DISTRESS depending on the drug being compared. It's amazing that opeople taking a placebo in one drug test test get VASTLY different side effects when compared to another...the rationale is SOOO transparent, the placebo effects are diddled, often TORTURED, to make the drug look good.
This hads been amusing me since I learned to read...I think after DICK AND JANE my next reader was the PDF (first in Cuneiform.)
arkie,
I've tried to take CoQ10 out of the equation for the myalgia and have faithfully taken 100 mg. a day.
I recognize that Rhabdomyolysis is quite rare but I'm pretty convinced that mylagia is quite common without rising to level of raising creatine phosphokinase levels (mine tested normal...Rhabdo goes SKY high.
Thanks both for your excellent input!
Unfortunately, I simply DO NOT BELIEVE any of the charts on ANY DRUG that delineate the number of adverse events...they are quite simply UNMITIGATED LIES.
For a REALLY good laugh, not how the effect of placebo changes for a particular condition like INFECTION or GASTRIC DISTRESS depending on the drug being compared. It's amazing that opeople taking a placebo in one drug test test get VASTLY different side effects when compared to another...the rationale is SOOO transparent, the placebo effects are diddled, often TORTURED, to make the drug look good.
This hads been amusing me since I learned to read...I think after DICK AND JANE my next reader was the PDF (first in Cuneiform.)
arkie,
I've tried to take CoQ10 out of the equation for the myalgia and have faithfully taken 100 mg. a day.
I recognize that Rhabdomyolysis is quite rare but I'm pretty convinced that mylagia is quite common without rising to level of raising creatine phosphokinase levels (mine tested normal...Rhabdo goes SKY high.
Thanks both for your excellent input!