Dear Good People,

I'm a first time poster here, so I hope I'm doing this right. My wife informed me about this board a couple of days ago, so I've spent several hours reading messages. I hoped that I would have found the answer to my question without having to post, but haven't found it yet. Hopefully without overkill, please allow me to tell her story and my question:

My wife is mid-40's -- we've been married for 22+ years and have 3 beautiful children. In the mid-1980's, my wife sought help for Depression/Anxiety/Panic Attacks. At some point in the quest for help, a doctor prescribed Prozac (new at the time), and it seemed to give life back to her. She has been on it continuously ever since.

Fast-forwarding to October 2003, my wife reluctantly admitted a 3-4 year pattern of Hydrocodone use; starting with a pill every now and then, escalating up to 10-12 pills each day (5.0 or 7.5, not 10). As I understand it, the original reason for the prescription was headaches associated with menstrual cycle. The reason for continued and increased use (over a year ago) was to provide energy to counteract the "dragging effect" of Prozac, AND to prevent what she discovered to be the flu-like symptons of withdrawal.

By April of this year, we made several attempts at our own weaning process, but finally saw this as a vicious cycle and sought the help of our family physician. He admitted that he was not an expert on the subject of opiate addiction, but indicated that he knew which drug was used -- Methadone.

Based on her 500-750 mg/day use of Hydro, he determined a starting point of 40 mg/day of Meth. (which she had a hard time taking) and within 3-4 days dropped to 35mg/day. Over the last 4 months, we've tapered her down to 10 mg/day (for roughly two weeks) and yesterday was her last 5 mg.

I explained this whole thing to one of our other doctors yesterday, and he said that she should be to a point of stepping away from Methadone without any withdrawals. My wife would love to hear that fact from someone who's been there!

She has also read enough on boards and in books to know that there are Methadone programs that believe in "methadone maintenance" for life -- and she wants to believe that that's OK as long as it keeps her feeling "normal."

She also worries (from her reading) that "if this is not done right" then she will relapse and again be craving Hydro.

My gut feeling is that she was on a small amount of Hydro (compared to others that we've heard of) and subsequently a small amount of Methadone, therefore, shouldn't we expect that any withdrawals be minor? This is my main question.

Assuming that this "step away" is really IT, what advice does anyone have in dealing the mental side of being drug free (for someone who's been accustomed to taking pills for so long).

I appreciate your input!

For one thing she'll need to get some help.....meetings at AA, NA and or Smart Recovery. That'll help with the mental part. As far as methadone goes....she's in for trouble if she goes that route. That's just my opinion but I think it would be easier to just kick the hydros. Methadone is a mean kick. You might want to get a second opinion on that one.

I think she is already taking the methadone and weaning off of it.

As far as methadone goes....she's in for trouble if she goes that route. That's just my opinion but I think it would be easier to just kick the hydros. Methadone is a mean kick. You might want to get a second opinion on that one.

Thanks for the reply!! She did start group meetings last week.

This is what I'm trying to figure out...

It's been 4 months since she had a substantial amount of Hydro.

In that 4 months she has been on a continuous taper (40mg - 10mg) of Methodone. Is it likely that she can quit the Methodone now without any withdrawals?

She's predicting "the aches" and wanting Propoxophene to help deal with it. That makes me feel that we're opening another can of worms, but I don't want to see her suffer. She probably has enough Xanax to keep her sedated for a couple of days.

Any ideas as to what her next few days will be like? Advice to make it better?

Hi,

I just started methadone after being on hydrocodone and other opiates and benzos for over 20 years. I am 47 and understand the premenstrual headaches and fatigue she feels. I had a hysterectomy 4 years ago, but I was already addicted way before that.

About the meth, because of the length of time I've been using opiates, I was started at 30 mgs, and am now stablilized at 105 mgs./day. I don't want to be on it forever, but I am aware that some folks do just that and feel and live totally normal lives. That's the point of the meth, to "get back to normal," and whatever that is for each person...the best thing is you do know it when you feel it. I was stable for awhile at 60 mgs. and then w/ds hit really bad just out of the blue! I was increased 5 mgs. a time for 1 to 3 days to see what dose was working. I stayed at 100 mgs. for 10 days, and then boom, some physical cravings and insomnia again. My clinic's dr. wants me to go very slow as I am very undisciplined and prone to relapse.

I have only been on the methadone program for 6 weeks, so I have no idea what the future holds, but I am already in a better place than I was. I now have a job and am not adding to my huge pile of debt and consumed with the "worrying merry-go-round" we create over how to get our next script...your wife knows what I mean.

The other poster is right on about the support. I am alone and I am just now looking into meetings, etc. Your wife is fortunate to have you with her : )
The only thing I have heard that is disoncerting to me about meetings is that from what I've read, some are very "hardcore" in that the line of thinking is that you are only clean if you are not on any drug of any kind and that using drugs like methadone or suboxone to stave off the withdrawals is not really being off drugs but more like trading in one drug for another. I've decided to go and just not tell that I'm on the meth and hope that I can still get some ideas and tools to help deal with having given up my pills--my best friends--that have been with me for more than half my life.

Good luck, and I'd like to stay in touch as I'm anxious about when (or if) the time comes to get off the meth. Some chronic pain patients end up abusing their methadone and from what I've read, that is when they've crossed over from dependence to addiction. It's all really just semantics, though, wouldn't you say? I mean, if we feel and think we're addicted to something, then we probably are addicts as I think we know ourselves the best...

Best wishes, good luck, and I'm very happy for you both for your wife's success!

Dallas Alice

Oh. She's already on the methadone. Gotcha. If she's a taperer and isn't prone to addictive behaviors then she should get through it. It will probably be difficult but she should be okay. Watch out for that Xanax....that stuff is evil. The Xanax could be the most worrisome component. Make sure she uses the Xanax only for a very short time.

Thanks Alice,

Good Luck with your methadone program. This somewhat blows me away that you were started on 30mg and increased up to 105mg!! Do they do blood tests or urinalysis to determine where you need to be?? Is there talk of an "end" when you'll be taken off of the methadone? If so, I'd love to know how they'll go about it!

As far as support groups, I think they are great. Being able to see and hear someone with the same or worse issues should be comforting. My wife would love to just sit in a room full of people that have come through this, hearing that "it can be done." Regarding your thoughts, you may want to just sit and listen to a few meetings. When you do decide to share, don't hide anything!! Drug Free is Drug Free. There would be no benefit in you leaving the meeting with a guilty conscience!

It truly hurts me to hear you think of meds as your "best friend." They are your worst enemy, robbing you (and those around you) of a much happier life!! Are you familiar with the song, "What a Friend We Have In Jesus" -- now there's a true friend, forever!
My wife and I were both raised Southern Baptist churches. She has stopped going, but I go every week -- usually with the kids. There is not a sermon that goes by that I fail to hear something I feel would be inspirational to her. Anyway, my point is that church can be good therapy, good socially, and a place to develop a Friend (that will not let you down) for eternity!

Keep us posted on you progress!!

aNewman

Well, I'm afraid you touched on two of the problems:

1. She IS prone to addictive behavior.

2. She's used Xanax for a long time.

We had never really discussed addictive behaviors until recently. She has stated that it's a good thing that she doesn't like alcohol or else she'd be an alcoholic. I guess she knows herself better than anyone, so at least she's not in denial about that. Do you see that as something that would prohibit a weaning process? She claims to be too much of a wimp to attempt cold turkey!

As far as Xanax, she has always had some available to stave off the "hits of anxiety" whenever the Prozac wasn't dealing with it. There was a time when she was on a good bit of it and her dr weaned her off without any problems. In the last few months, she has been taking one only at night to help her sleep. Last night, she took a few because I think she's very anxious about running out of Methodone and Propoxyphene at the same time -- so she just wants to sleep through this ordeal.

It sounds to me like she's doing really good. I am on methadone, now weaning off and at 67 mg. I was started at 30 and went up to 80 and stopped at 80 mg for one year. I've been on methadone a total of 3 years and started weaning a few months ago. My problem started with 3 herniated discs and degenerative disc disease, trying to put off surgery as long as I could and ended up taking up to 10-15 hydrocodone 10 mg tablets per day. I knew I needed help and started the Methadone Program. It saved me. There's always going to be others worse off and better off, so try not to compare her with anybody else. Different things work better for different people, so it's very different for everybody. But as far as the drugs themselves, there are clinical studies made using clinical trials and most drugs are studied very thoroughly and the experts know how they should work for most people. But your wife sounds like she's got a plan and she's sticking to it. Without us addictive type behavior people in this world, it sure would be a dull place, wouldn't it!!!???? LOL. Yes, I know it would! The world would stop turning! LOL. We make it very interesting, to say the least. IMHO. Have a great day.

The Xanax can be a huge problem if you let it. It is best to do without that crap because, as with other dope, it eventually stops working. She'll hit tolerance and the current dose will have little to no effect. If you find she's cheating with her "taper" then the best bet would be to let her cold turkey in a detox where she'll be safe and it will be fairly smooth. There will be some pain but the detox professionals will not let her get too uncomfortable.

Yes, I'm worried about the Xanax being a problem too. She has kept me conviced that she only takes it at bedtime, but she apparently took about ten 0.5 pills last night (and wondered why she woke up at all). How much would be lethal? I want her out of pain, but I also want her to wake up!

She asked me to get a refill for her, but I hate the thought of having this stuff in the house!

Thoughts please!!!

A

Opiates and benzos(Xanax, Valium, Klonipin, Librium....and others) is a LETHAL combination. Please keep in mind that if she does methadone and a benzo together it may KILL her. My friend's 19-year-old son took methadone and klonipin then went to sleep forever. He did the Jimi Hendrix thing....drowned in his own vomit. I don't want to scare you but you need to know that the opiate/xanax combination is very serious. What happens is that the opiate will cause nausea/vomiting and she'll be so knocked out by the Xanax that she won't be able to roll over. Make sure that she sleeps on her side for now. If she's eating piles of Xanax then she has a BIG problem. If it were my wife I'd check her *** into a detox then follow up with a 28 day rehab. Fooling with this tapering crap while she's still gobbling benzos is ridiculous. She'll make up a million excuses not to go to detox/rehab.....I've heard them all. Xanax has a very short "half-life" and what she'll end up doing is waking up in the middle of the night, gobbling a handful, then passing out again. She'll use the Xanax to "sleep through" the withdrawals of the opiates. Please take this very seriously.....it sounds like she's in DEEP TROUBLE. You need to let the doc know what she's doing with the benzos too. Remember that methadone(and/or opiates) and benzos DO NOT MIX. Please be careful. It sounds like she will have a hard time "tapering". Not many true addicts can do a taper....not many at all.

This is the kind of stuff I need to hear. I have learned more than I've ever wanted to know about meds, but I guess there is always more to learn. I'm not familiar with the term Benzo (assuming that Xanax fits into that catagory), but I'm aware that certain combinations can be harmful.

Right now, she's staying isolated (I'm keeping watch on her) and hasn't had access to Methadone since Thursday (when she took her last 5mg -- that was all she had that day).

As far as detox/rehab, I think that that is something she's dreaded all her life. She's never been or even talked to anyone who's been (as far as I know). I think, no I know, that 90% of her reluctance has to do with worry of what her family and friends will think of her. This is a case of Pride being her 2nd worse enemy.

Also regarding the Xanax, she has expressed that the Generic (Alprazolam 0.5) that she has been taking is so much weaker than the brand name that she justifies taking more than prescribed -- or gets caught up in the "take as needed for anxiety" as printed on the label...either way, how much is too much?!?

Thanks for your help!!

A

I think is great that you are supportive of your wife, however, it is like a couple having a baby. Only the woman actually "has" the baby. Although her addiction has caused you problems, the drug addiction belongs to your wife. You can be supportive but it is up to her to do it. Why isn't she posting? Why are you posting for her? You say your wife would love to hear about this and that. How do you know? Let you wife talk for herself. If my husband kept saying "our" withdrawals I would kick him you know where! They are "my" withdrawals. You (the husband) are facing something totally different.

I don't mean to be rude, please don't take it is that. I think it is important for the addict to take ownership of his/her disease. I know you are trying to help and that is great. But let her do it. That way, she will have a sense of accomplishment. It is like a kid who doesn't want to mow the lawn. And then you make them do it all by themselves and they are so proud they did it. They hated doing it, but they have a sense of accomplishment. Don't rob your wife of that.

I know you don't want her to suffer but she needs to to remember what it was like and not go back. She has to learn from her mistakes so she can play the tape all the way forward the next time a doctor or friend says, "You want any?" And it will happen. A good meaning friend will offer. You won't be around. She has to face the devil down herself. She has to know she can do it. Not that you can do it. Not that you can help her do it. But that SHE can do it.

You need to read my post on propoxyphene. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I have been there too. The only thing we can share is our experience, strength, and hope. I think you are right. It will open another can of worms. (My post of that is under the thread where someone on this board is asking for an explanation between Darvocet and percs. Propoxyphene is the generic word for Darvocet.) Read if you can find it.

Wife- Good luck to you. You can do it.




Methodone withdrawal I heard is the pits. Worse than hydro, cocaine, alcohol put together.

DallasAlice-Those hardcore N.A. members and A.A. members can go to hell! You get the help you need and don't worry about them. You will find adversity where ever you go and these places are no exception. I have been to both. Most A.A. groups where I live do not like junkies in there meetings. But each group is different. If you don't have a problem with alcohol, although they say a drug is a drug and alcohol is a drug, you may want to go to a N.A. meetings (Narcotics Anonymous). I don't have a pyschological dependence on alcohol and won't say that I have, and I can't mention pain pills in most of the AA groups around here where I live. (Alabama). I have been asked to leave a group before. This group said that they don't like Rif Raf in there meetings so no junkies please. lol Drug addicts are Rif Raf and alcoholics aren't? Is that not a hoot? I used to drive a Mercedes.

Anyway, I feel more at home in N.A. meetings because you can talk about drug use. My drug of choice is hydro. I don't tell them I am on Suboxone because it is none of their business. You may want to tell your sponsor though. You need a sponsor and the meeting chairman will help you find one. This is a person you can trust with your life. If you can't, find another one. Views differ on the Suboxone/Methodone treatment. To me, what ever keeps you away from your drug of choice. Taking hydro almost ruined my life. Suboxone has given me my life back. So there is a difference. Again, view points differ. I know one guy who thought you weren't clean if you were on an anti depressant. What? Anti depressants aren't making my life out of control the hydro is. Hydro is what I was seeking help for. I didn't let his opinion of anti depressants keep me from taking them or keep me from going to meetings. This guy had told a woman she shouldn't take anit depressants if she wanted to be clean. She went home and committed suicide. Remember, these people (most) are not doctors. They aren't your doctor anyway. Seek the advice of your physican and stick to it. Take what you want from these meetings and leave the rest there. That is what they say. They also say, some are sicker then others. This is true.

Find a group near you and give it a try. Keep going until to you find the group you feel the most comfortable with. I think you will like the support. You will hear stories that make mine and yours pale in comparison. Some meetings you cry some you laugh. I enjoy them. I know I can say whatever is bothering me and someone will say, "Me too!" It is nice to know you aren't alone. It is like this board only in person. Don't expect to be babied or pittied though. They aren't into that. You own your addiction and these people know it. They have been there, done that.

I hope I didn't give you the impression these people are mean. They aren't. They just hold you accountable which is good. No pitty party here. They will tell you fast to, "Get off the pitty pot" which is also good. It is not a group where people gather around and cry about their using. They want you to get clean, stay clean. Clean up your life and keep coming back.

Okay okay. The group is about attraction not promotion. I hope I didn't break a N.A. tradition here. We don't go to pharmacies and hand out brochures. But I feel someone with an admitted addiction needs encouragement to go. If you didn't feel you had an addiction, I wouldn't be encouraging these meetings to you. I just want you to have encouragement not discouragement because of what you heard about some hardcore addicts. That is what they are-hardcore addicts.

Let me know if you go and what you think. Good luck to you. Again, I love your story. I love to hear other people's stories. Usually, you find you aren't alone. There is always someone who has been there too. Me too!

Rebecca: Only the woman actually "has" the baby. Although her addiction has caused you problems, the drug addiction belongs to your wife.

A: I have to disagree. That is to say that our children are just hers, not ours!! When she chose to share this with me instead of keeping it a secret, it became OUR problem. Her unrealistic concern for waiting so long to tell me was that I'd be so hurt that I'd want to kick her out of the house.

We grew up in the same neighborhood, dated in high school, and married in our early 20's. We've both honored our wedding vows, including, "In sickness or in health," believing that those vows were not just to each other -- but to God. This has been an unintentional sickness for her, not some recreational sport. I intend to help her in the best way I know how.

I originally posted because I could not find where anyone was discussing quantities of Hydro, Meth, Propox, etc. and I needed to get educated quickly as her meds ran out. She attempted to register some time ago but I think she got confused in the process (she's not real computer savvy) and I agree, it would do her some good to do it herself. At the moment, she seems to be attempting to sleep it off.

Thanks for the info on Propoxy...I've become concerned now about ANYTHING that she is taking, despite her claims about them being "weak" or "non-addictive."

A

I can't help but respond to aNewman's posts. Are you really? Sounds like you are a classic co dependant. "Honey, go to the pharmacy and get my prescription refilled." And you are considering it? What are you nuts? Make her do it. Quit waiting on her hand and foot. If she said, "Honey, hand me a loaded gun so I can kill myself, " would you?

Think about what you are doing here, please! Before it is too late. These people on this post know what they are talking about. I think I need sleeping pills too. One day I took 22 of them. Talk about surprised I woke up. You had asked, "How many is a lethal dose"? Remember this, if she is addicted to it-One is too many and a thousand never enough.

You may want to consider Alanon meetings. That is where the other half of the addiction goes. They go to learn how to live with addiction. They don't learn how to hand out loaded guns.

You disagree: Did you give birth?

I know they are your children. But who was on the delivery table? Both of you.

You are great to honor your vows. But I don't think you are helping. But that is my opinion. I am an addict and I know what I am talking about. I could con the pope.

I do think it is great you want to help. Just be sure that you are helping? Maybe she isn't computer savy? Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.

It is also good you are educating yourself. Have you tried Alanon meetings? My sisters, brother, mother and father are addicts/alcoholics. I started there. Then when I was 35 I discovered I was addicted to pain pills and also belonged with the AA/NA crowd. So now I go to NA meetings (Narcotics Anonymous).

I just hope you see my point here? I did they same thing to my fiance. Go get my hydro cough syrup refilled. It is to help with the withdrawal symptoms. He did. Did that help me? I don't think so.

You don't want to think your wife con's you. Do you know that addiciton is a cunning and baffling disease? It is cunning to addicts as well as the people around them. She probably doesn't even know she cons you. How long did she con herself thinking she wasn't an addict? Finally you get hit with it in the face and you are forced to deal with it. I am glad she told you. Can you honestly say you didn't know before she told you? Did you know something was up? If not, go back to top of this post.

Sure I knew it. She couldn't bring herself to say it, other than tearfully saying, "I have something to tell you." As badly as I wanted her to say it for herself, I had to break the ice by saying, "It's the medicine, right?"

Looking back, a professional detox program would likely have put this behind us long ago, but I too, have tried to protect her/us from the stigma of this being known by so many family and friends.

You have to put aside the fear of embarassment. If she doesn't get clean, your family is really going to be scrutinized when she dies because of this. If she could get clean on her own, great, but it doesn't sound like that is working. You have got to get her some help!

I completely understand thinking that you just cannot deal with the people in your life finding out. There is always the chance that you will get responses that will not be nice. But, you will almost certainly get responses that are so kind and proud that you will be embarassed that you used your fear of their reaction for the reason for waiting so long to get help.

Just a note on the "generic is weaker than brand name" argument...I worked in pharmacy my entire adult life and will say that in my experience, the only people I have ever heard use that argument are people who are 1)addicts, or 2)trying to resell on the street (brand name brings more profit).

Your wife is very lucky to have a husband who cares the way you obviously do. Now, it is time for you to be strong for her and make her health more important than vanity. Your family is in my prayers.

Christin,

Thanks for the encouragement and prayers. As I've read the plight of so many on this board, I too have lifted up prayers for the sufferers and the people that love them.

That's very interesting about generic vs brand...seems like I read something one time that generics had to have an exact amount of the primary drug, but could be within a certain range of the filler. If there's not a difference, it makes you wonder why the generics cost so much less than brand.

Keep praying, I'm sure when she wakes up she's going to want me to get some meds for her. I'm trying to be strong and know the right things to say and do.

Thanks again,

A

Hi again,

Anewman, I'll try and answer your questions about the meth program I'm on...yes, I started at 30 mgs. a day (6 weeks ago), and they increased it by 5 mgs. a day until I hit a point where I felt "normal." By that I mean, I was no longer having thoughts about the hydro and I was not experiencing any withdrawals. I was sleeping through the night, I was in a better mood as so much stress was lifted because I now have some hope in sight (one of my biggest stressors was my debt that I accumulated over the years...about $15,000 in medical bills and pills and all on credit cards!), and I was doing activities--very simple things like going to a movie, taking my kids for a hike, working and then coming home and making dinner and then helping with homework and NOT getting all irritable and stressed about it, but most importantly, not having to take a hydro to do it. I felt like I was finally "living" life, not just surviving it or enduring it. After almost a year and a half, I found myself back to work full time with a chance at getting medical benefits, too! This feeling of "normalcy" hit me at about the 60 mg. dose, and then after several days at that level...bang, breakthrough w/ds hit me, and I wanted a pill soooooo bad. I was completely honest with the clinic doctor, and he began upping me again 5 mgs. a time (at every 10 mgs. you stay there to see if you've "stablized," for example at 60, 70, 80, 90 and then 100 mgs. you stay at that for 3 days and just keep them aware and filled in on how you're doing and what you feel like). I stayed at 100 mgs. for 10 days as I was feeling really good. I wasn't thinking with any of my old thought patterns, but then it happened again--cravings and mild w/ds broke through...like all of a sudden I was back to not sleeping and having lots of headaches and not eating as well as I was and having a total lack of energy. I told the doctor about it, and yesterday he upped me 5 more mgs. for thru the weekend. I will probably go up another 5 on Monday, and then try staying there for awhile.

The first thing with methadone treatment is finding what dose makes you "stable." Once you find that place, then you begin working on other coping skills so when the time comes to taper (if it ever does), then you know what works and what your personal starting and stopping point is. I know 105 mgs. sounds like a lot, but believe me when I say that there are folks there who are in the 200-300 mg. dosing range. I know I'll ever be there, but everybody is different as is their ability to metabolize drugs (that's what the counselor & the dr. told me anyway). I was taking 150 to 200 mgs. of hydro a day, and about 45 to 60 mgs. of a benzo called Tranxene (same family as Xanax...benzodiazepines), and drinking about 4-8 ozs. of alcohol a night. The dr. is aware of all this, and because of the drowsiness meth gives a person, I no longer even want a drink of alcohol or I'd have to go to bed then and there!

As for the benzos, the poster who is telling you that Xanax is some bad stuff and that meth and benzos don't mix is absolutely right! I've been on my Tranxene for 15 years, and I probably don't even need it anymore, so the only reason I'm on it is to avoid the withdrawals. Well, the clinic dr. has cut me back from 3 a day to 2, so I'm at 30 mgs. now, but most of the time I only take one at night which is what he said to do if I can (just enough to keep the complete w/ds at bay and not send me into some downward, spiraling tailspin.) You can't just stop taking benzos abruptly once you're addicted as there is a very high risk of seizures and other things, so the clinic dr. wants me to take it slow and address one thing at a time--the hydro first, the tranxene second, and the alcohol third (which I was drinking mostly just to get to sleep, and I don't need that anymore, so the trickle down effect of being on the meth, for me, has had some added benefits I wasn't expecting).

All in all, I can say I've gone from my original drug story (150-200 mgs. of opiates, the hydros, a day to zero), 45-60 mgs. a day of benzos down to 15-30/day; and from 4-8 ozs. of alcohol a night to about that much in a week. Of course, the added ingredient is now the methadone, so I am struggling with the concept of exchanging one drug for another, but I could no longer keep up the pill seeking, the lies, the money, the suicidal thoughts, the isolation and loneliness, the pretending and trying to keep up the "image," and then finally the thought that this would be my life forever. Things are very much better for me now...a job, sleep, a better mood, no more adding to my debt, just all of it. As far as when it ends, I have no idea...I'm just going with the program and my next step like I said is to get ready to prepare for the emotional aspect as I anticipate going off the meth some day.

Rebecca, I agree with your approach to the meetings! I do need to go and I want to go, so I will go. I plan to just listen and get a feel for the group (and definately I would only consider going to an NA meeting and not an AA one) before I chime in. And when I do chime in, I do feel I have to honest or else it's just more lies and I don't want to lie anymore about any of what I've done or what I'm doing, you know?

In closing, I have to say I agree with the other posters to a degree, too, Anewman...it's time for your wife to be hitting the keyboard and finding the meetings and telling us how she feels. I think it's wonderful that she has you and you are supportive of her decision to quit the drugs...but she's messing with you about the Xanax, I can just tell. One thing addicts learn to do very well is manipulate people...especially those that love them as much as you love her. We tell those who love us what they want to hear so they'll leave us alone while we continue with our pills. Sure she wants to be alone and sleep it off, but that is way too easy and it really doesn't work like that. She needs to face what she's become and put her pride aside and do what you told me when you said your wife would love to be able to sit in a room with a group of people who understand her situation, so she needs to do it--and not for you and not for your marriage, but for herself so she can then include you in her sobriety and work at her marriage as hard as it sounds like you are. You do sound like you have some classic co-dependency issues, and as much as I understand your not wanting to see her in pain or hurting...she's got a lot of work ahead that only she can do herself. You really can't do it for her. You can show her this board and this thread, you can find out where the meetings are, and you can hand her the phone book, but you can't make the call for help for her. I don't mean to sound harsh or anything like that--I wish I had someone on the sidelines cheering me on so I could get the positive feedback and have that feeling that someone was waiting for me when I come home clean...and I think that is all you really can do for her and that is watch and wait until she comes around. You have to do what is best for you right now as her addiction has become your problem, and in all truth...it is her problem, and her problem alone. I hope you won't take anything I've said as defensive or negative...I just feel that you're being "played" in a way and it's unfair to you to not have her doing the work and putting it on your shoulders instead. Thanks for bringing her plight to our attention, and I hope we hear from her sometime, but in the meantime, please do let us know how she's doing...

All my best,

Dallas Alice

Rebecca, I meant to tell you how much I could relate to your story about the hardcore AA guy...I dated a guy once who had past girlfriends who were on antidepressants, and he broke up with them because he felt they weren't honest! He felt that the way they were wasn't "real" by taking them. I asked him, "what if they were the real person they were before and not on any drugs, and then one day something happened or someting in their past caught up to them and they found themselves severely depressed so they were no longer their real selves, and now because of their taking antidepressants, they got back to being their old self--their "real selves' again?" He didn't follow my logic at all, and maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so. I think a person takes antidepressants to get back to the way they were, not to change themselves into someone they're not--what do you think? Well, thanks for your post on the meetings...I'm going to listen to you on that one!

Best wishes and take care,

Dallas Alice

I am fortunate to have a husband who stuck by me through this nightmare called addiction. When I was reading your posts, I could honestly feel your immense love for your wife.....I am sure she is so very grateful to have your love and support. My husband was my "rock" when I went through the worst parts of it all, and my story is just way too long to get into now. I will share it with you if you think it might help you....but for now...I want to share something else.

When I was using, I became something I couldn't even identify. I was constantly telling stories (excuses), finding ways to keep my supply up, hiding my pills where my husband would never think to look for them, thinking of new (and creative) ways to explain where our money was going, making sure I would have my pills for any event I had to attend...any event...even as small as going to a movie with a friend or my sister...it didn't matter. I could not function without narcotics flowing through my bloodstream. The pills became more important than food, sleep, my health, my job, my friends, my family, and this is the most painful to admit.....more important than my husband and my kids. It doesn't seem possible or logical for someone to put pills ahead of so many of life's gifts and blessings. I didn't do it on purpose, I didn't realize when I started to take my presribed medications for legitimate reasons that I would end up needing those pills as much as I needed air. Your wife is in a situation that I am sure she would have much rather avoided, but it's too late now. She needs to face some real issues. I can tell by your posts that just because she is getting off of the hydrocodone, it doesn't mean she is over the "fight" just yet. Please try to remember something......your wife has been numbing her emotions and feelings for a long time. She doesn't want to feel ANYTHING, especially something that isn't pleasant....she doesn't know how to "feel". She just wants to "avoid", "escape", whatever term you choose to use. Although she loves you dearly, she will lie to you, and make things appear a certain way to you, she will manipulate you. It is so sad, but it is very true.

I have to go for now, but I would like to come back on here later if possible to share some more things with you (if I may). I want to commend you on your commitment to your wife, it is rare these days indeed. However, helping her does not necessarily mean making things easy for her, as hard as it is for you to accept that. I know you want her to get better....I sincerely hope she wants it as badly as you do. I get the feeling she is not ready, but certainly I am not equipped to even make that guess.

I will do anything for you or for her to help you guys through this ordeal. I t sounds like we may have much in common. I have to go for now. Please take care............. Fondly ~ Jen

Oh Jen, thanks for sharing that with me. I'd love to hear your whole story, especially if it has a happy ending. I will print it and read it to her if you could take the time to post it. I've wanted to get her involved in this board but she has just wanted to stay out of sight to suffer alone.

The closest I can come to relating to all of this is cigarettes. I had smoked on and off since I was a teenager. After being quit for 9 years, I picked it back up while hanging out with a co-worker that smoked. The saying, "You're always a puff away from a pack-a-day" was true for me. That puff caused me to smoke for 5 years. I just quit this past Father's Day as a gift to my family. It seemed easy this time, now that I have a new perspective on addition. The cost, the smell, and my potentially reduced health was as much of a burden on my family as it was on me -- I quit for them!

I feel that each day, I'm faced with decisions about whether to turn left or right. I have to weigh the impact of each decision -- on myself, and sometimes more importantly, those around me. Obviously, drugs impair the normal logic, reasoning, and consequence parts of the brain. That is why addicts need someone who cares. I know you are thankful that your husband was/is there for you.

Looking forward to your story when you have time,

A

ANEWMAN -

It was years before I even admitted I had a "problem"--let alone searched Goggle (casually!!) for an addiction site! Sadly, we all feel that we have a handle on our situation. It's like a mental broom keeps sweeping any flashes of reality, into a corner.

I can think of several (and there are hundreds) of stories on this Board, where the lying was impossible to stop--the pills took precedence over absolutely everything. It's hard to envision becoming so focused to such a deadly degree....but with addiction, sadly, it is commonplace. (The utter relief and joy, when you DO manage to secure your needed drugs, only days before you run out, is just the most mixed guilty "oh, no.../oh, thank gawd" feeling...a feeling that can only be understood by another pill taker. We all know that the reality of this "Mission Accomplished" is just totally sick and indicative of a terrible problem. I am sure you wife has been going through all this misery, herself, right now. Even if she is letting you handle it.) I do hope she can be "weaned" out of seclusion and and onto this Board. I haven't taken that recovery step yet...and I understand all she is going through. You are the most "supportive husband" that most of us do not have. And I can fully understand how difficult it must be for you to draw the line between "supporter"...and "enabler."
You've done so much to help her recover. :-)

JEN -

Yes, what you experienced is so true....my having to take a pill to do something that is joyful all on its own (ie.; watching a movie with a friend) is so indicative of my illness. Somewhere along the line you pass the point from when the pills originally "enhancied your enjoyment of the movie"....to where they became necessary to "ward off" those sick withdrawal symptoms during the movie..... :-(

DALLASA -

Re. Your Methadone Level: My system is like yours in that I always have to take the top range of any therapeutic medications. When other people I knew were prescribed 20 mg of Prozac....I needed 80 mgs...just to get within what my doctor calls "the therapuetic window." My Wellbutrin is at one of the higher levels, as well. Strangely enough, though, I could never take more than one hydro at a time...I become very affected in an umpleasant way--nauseous and a feeling of my muscles tightening around the base of my throat. Same with any opiate. Weird.

aNewman:

You will print Jen's story and read it to her (your wife).

It will take you a while to understand how addiction works and that you can't do it for her.

You can't protect her from the consequences of her own actions otherwise she will never learn from her own mistakes. You can't love someone enough to make them clean. You will drive yourself insane trying to cure her. You need to be there for your children. How old are they?

My children are 21, 17, and 14. They have been through a lot with my addiction. I hope your wife gets better soon for your sake as well as theirs.

Please go to an alanon meeting. See if they don't give you the same advice. Go just to prove me wrong!

ANewman-
Hi- nice to meet you-just felt like i should post you-i am a recovering drug addict-i haven't used any opiates since last November-and am on the suboxone maintainence program(similar to methadone)...
You mentioned that you were afraid of getting your wife into treatment-cos others would find out-there is a confidentiality agreement-both parties must sign off on..No one would know...
I have read your posts-and i can tell you really care deeply about your wife/family-but unfortuately its true-your wife is taking advantage of the fact-you don't know about these meds-and streching the truth..i understand-
Shes in deep-w/ dual addictions,etc..
She desperately needs you to help her-and honestly-you need to get her into detox/treatment..there she will be medically supervised/detoxed safely-and medicated to allieve the heavy w/d's-she will be involved in group/individual therapy to help her understand her addictions-and you won't have to enable her...on any level..she will get the help she needs-
Don't worry-about others knowing your business-there is anonymity/in these facilities-you can call your local hospital-for info-take her out of town-
You mentioned shes sleeping it off-are your children grown-or at home???
Obviously-things are not getting much better-i hope you will consider this option-how do you spell relief????DETOX!!!
Then-you can concentrate on helping her-when she comes home-detoxed and ready to face the next stage-recovery..
I really don't think its gonna happen the way things are going right now-professional help is really needed here..thats why these places exist-
Ive been to detox more than once-it took several attempts for me-cos my addiction was enabled-by my friends/husband-myself..
I know how deep it goes-and everyone here that is an addict will tell you-its not easy to get clean-its a process-and it takes alot of work-
I wish you and your family-peace..and if you really want to help your wife-you will insist on professional help-this is a serious health matter-and unfortuately many of us lose the fight-
Blessed Be-
GGrl65 :angel:

I hope some of the stuff people write about enabling help you to see things a little more clearly. I started a new thread called Enabling. I hope you read some of the posts there. Bring home a drug test you can buy right in the pharmacy and adminsiter yourself. Now, you have to let her pee on the stick to get the drug levels in her system. This little drug screen can eliminate a lot of doubt and will let the truth come out. If she resists, why? She shouldn't be able to pass right? Then she won't have any trouble taking it? If she knows she can't pass it she will try to make you feel like a heel for not trusting her. Ask her to do it for you. See what happens

After this, I just can't post to you anymore. I know, you are sad. You get great tips from people who care and you just don't get it. I don't want to take any more of your time as you can use this time to run around and do everything for your wife because you got married in a Baptist Church. You are going to "help" your wife right into the grave with this disease.

Untie the umbilical cord you have wraped around her, grow a back bone, and put your wife in a detox/rehab place that can help her whether she likes it or not. If you realy want to help you will insist on professional help. This is a serious matter and it looks like your children are going to be the only ones around to tell the story.

P.S. Read thread "Gumption to tell husband"

Throwing a bunch of AA/NA/Anon slogans at the guy about "enabling" and all that is a little quick in this case(my opinion). I mean, the guy just found out what benzos are. Newman....you should listen to what these people say though(although it is a lot at once). I know you love her but you are also helping with her addiction. Tell her you won't be able to help unless she helps herself. It sounds as if she can't do it on her own and she can't do it with you. To hell with the "stigma" which she thinks rehab will give her. What's better.....a clean, productive citizen or a mumbling, stumbling junkie? If she avoids rehab and gets worse then she'll be looked upon as some kind of town drunk because people are going to notice her slurring and falling down. On the other hand....if she goes and cleans herself up then people won't notice slurring/falling and those that find out she went to rehab will probably consider her a brave person for doing what needed to be done. It is a tough decision to make. If you want to do an "intervention" then you'll need the help of her doc and her family. You might have to tell her that you are hitting the road if she doesn't get help. You might want to go to an "open" NA meeting and talk to some recovering pillheads there...they'll help.

Windy, thanks for the words of wisdom. The last couple of days have been a struggle, but I'm hanging in there (tough love) and keeping the opiates out of the house. Today is Day #5 of her being off of the Methadone (tapered down to ~10mg over a 4 month period) and Propoxyphene. Most of her family now knows the whole story and all of her docs know it. We also have a Psychologist (and friend of the family) that has counciled with us and stayed in touch via phone on a daily basis.

Hopefully, you'll all be hearing from bNewman soon. I think that "some" of what she'll read will be good for her, others will be bad for her.

More to share but I'm tired...

aNewman

As much as you try to keep the "opiates out of the house", is she wants them she'll find a way to get them. She's only going to truly get better when she wants them out. You can't protect her from herself and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to do so.

I truly hope she's on the way to recovery. It's not an easy journey and don't be suprised if she relapses more then once. Don't kill yourself trying to protect her from the consequences of her choices. Trust me, I've been there and learned the hard way.

jdashb you have a good point.

Good Point Indeed!! I'm trying so hard to protect her, but I can't be on her heels 24/7. We've made it beyond 5 days, but I'm still seeing her going through a roller coaster of emotions -- this evening claiming that she just wanted to die. I pity her (without showing it), and I'm trying to find that glimmer of hope within her that SHE wants to get better. At the moment, she'd still just rather have a fix.

The worst part is our children having to witness some of it. They are 19, 15, & 8. They're getting a unpleasant lesson in why you should stay away from drugs.

If the road to recovery is bumpy, we're on the right road.

Blessings to you all,

Yes....it is bumpy. The hardest part is the psychological part. Meetings are very important to get through it.....it is a lifetime program(to work right). You might want to do a few al-anon meetings to get some tools.

Hi Everyone,

Just an update to let everyone know that the bumpy road has turned into smooth asphalt! We just had to get beyond the potholes (no pun intended).

Anyway, early Saturday morning (like 4:30am) , my wife called me from her parent's house freaking out with anxiety and demanding that I come pick her up and take her somewhere to get some help. I had already been searching over the last couple of days for a good facility and knew that the best facility for her was about 2 hours away. Her ultimatium, "Either you come get me or I'll call 9-1-1" was met with my sleep-deprived voice saying, "Call 9-1-1." Then I took the phone off the hook.

Later in the day, I received a call from her in a calmer, less defensive voice asking for my help. I made sure that she realized that she was "asking for help" and that that was finally a step in the right direction. I brought her home with the understanding that things were going to be different -- better than before.

Our children received her with hugs and welcome home signs -- I should have made a Kodak moment out of it. We had a nice peaceful evening of conversation and prayer, and we all got a good night's sleep.

This morning (Sunday) we were up early, discussing various aspects of the last few days and the changes that would need to be made for all of our sanity. The kids went to church and we stayed home and watched one of the local baptist church services. The pastor delivered a message as though it was written just for my wife. It was unbelievable! I can list over 20 people within our family & friends that have been praying for us, and this TV sermon made us feel that they were all answered.

I'll try to get her to post the next update. We both know that there will still be rough days, and I'm sure that you guys will be there for encouragement and support. I think her testimony is a good message of hope for anyone who feels that things are hopeless. :angel:

ANewman

Dear Good People,

I'm a first time poster here, so I hope I'm doing this right. My wife informed me about this board a couple of days ago, so I've spent several hours reading messages. I hoped that I would have found the answer to my question without having to post, but haven't found it yet. Hopefully without overkill, please allow me to tell her story and my question:

My wife is mid-40's -- we've been married for 22+ years and have 3 beautiful children. In the mid-1980's, my wife sought help for Depression/Anxiety/Panic Attacks. At some point in the quest for help, a doctor prescribed Prozac (new at the time), and it seemed to give life back to her. She has been on it continuously ever since.

Fast-forwarding to October 2003, my wife reluctantly admitted a 3-4 year pattern of Hydrocodone use; starting with a pill every now and then, escalating up to 10-12 pills each day (5.0 or 7.5, not 10). As I understand it, the original reason for the prescription was headaches associated with menstrual cycle. The reason for continued and increased use (over a year ago) was to provide energy to counteract the "dragging effect" of Prozac, AND to prevent what she discovered to be the flu-like symptons of withdrawal.

By April of this year, we made several attempts at our own weaning process, but finally saw this as a vicious cycle and sought the help of our family physician. He admitted that he was not an expert on the subject of opiate addiction, but indicated that he knew which drug was used -- Methadone.

Based on her 500-750 mg/day use of Hydro, he determined a starting point of 40 mg/day of Meth. (which she had a hard time taking) and within 3-4 days dropped to 35mg/day. Over the last 4 months, we've tapered her down to 10 mg/day (for roughly two weeks) and yesterday was her last 5 mg.

I explained this whole thing to one of our other doctors yesterday, and he said that she should be to a point of stepping away from Methadone without any withdrawals. My wife would love to hear that fact from someone who's been there!

She has also read enough on boards and in books to know that there are Methadone programs that believe in "methadone maintenance" for life -- and she wants to believe that that's OK as long as it keeps her feeling "normal."

She also worries (from her reading) that "if this is not done right" then she will relapse and again be craving Hydro.

My gut feeling is that she was on a small amount of Hydro (compared to others that we've heard of) and subsequently a small amount of Methadone, therefore, shouldn't we expect that any withdrawals be minor? This is my main question.

Assuming that this "step away" is really IT, what advice does anyone have in dealing the mental side of being drug free (for someone who's been accustomed to taking pills for so long).

I appreciate your input!

From around 1997 to December 2004 I had been taking "hydro" 7.5mg. and 10mg. as with your wife I started out taking it as directed but it quickly became an addiction and soon was taking as much as your wife or more. I have not taken any since that time. Your wife needs to think of this addiction like being an alcoholic, you will never lose the urge to take the drug. The only thing that will change, which will come with time, is how often and how long the cravings come and go. As time goes by the urges will become further and fewer but will probably never completely go away. I know this sounds depressing but it will always day to day fight. But the bright side is the thoughts and craving for the drug get weaker as time goes by. I've never taken any Methadone for my addiction and let me tell you it is a hard thing to go through, but physicaly I feel much better since I've stopped taking the drug. So encourage your wife to stay off this drug because the Tylenol that is is in this drug will eventually give her Liver Disease and cause her Liver to shut down. The daily limit for Tylenol is 4000mg. Each tablet of "Hydro". has 500mg. of Tylenol in it. So basically when we take all that "Hydro" we are slowlly poisoning our system. Good Luck to you and your wife. :angel:

Hi Gene,

Wow, I can't believe that it's been almost a year and this thread is still getting attention. Hopefully, it provides information to the user as well as the loved ones of the user.

The last 9-10 months have had their share of sorrow and joy. Without a doubt, recovery would not have been possible without our close-knit family, some true friends, and our faith in God.

The battle with addiction recovery is never over, it's just conquered one day at a time. We're at Day 300+.

My advice to those that truly Love and are Committed to their spouse or friend, is get professional help. Don't feel badly about not knowing the details of medications, but DO get involved with his/her doctors, pharmacists, psychologists, friends, etc.

On this Memorial Day, remember those that have sacrificed their lives for the betterment many.

Prayers for you all,
Derrell

Dear Good People,

I'm a first time poster here, so I hope I'm doing this right. My wife informed me about this board a couple of days ago, so I've spent several hours reading messages. I hoped that I would have found the answer to my question without having to post, but haven't found it yet. Hopefully without overkill, please allow me to tell her story and my question:

My wife is mid-40's -- we've been married for 22+ years and have 3 beautiful children. In the mid-1980's, my wife sought help for Depression/Anxiety/Panic Attacks. At some point in the quest for help, a doctor prescribed Prozac (new at the time), and it seemed to give life back to her. She has been on it continuously ever since.

Fast-forwarding to October 2003, my wife reluctantly admitted a 3-4 year pattern of Hydrocodone use; starting with a pill every now and then, escalating up to 10-12 pills each day (5.0 or 7.5, not 10). As I understand it, the original reason for the prescription was headaches associated with menstrual cycle. The reason for continued and increased use (over a year ago) was to provide energy to counteract the "dragging effect" of Prozac, AND to prevent what she discovered to be the flu-like symptons of withdrawal.

By April of this year, we made several attempts at our own weaning process, but finally saw this as a vicious cycle and sought the help of our family physician. He admitted that he was not an expert on the subject of opiate addiction, but indicated that he knew which drug was used -- Methadone.

Based on her 500-750 mg/day use of Hydro, he determined a starting point of 40 mg/day of Meth. (which she had a hard time taking) and within 3-4 days dropped to 35mg/day. Over the last 4 months, we've tapered her down to 10 mg/day (for roughly two weeks) and yesterday was her last 5 mg.

I explained this whole thing to one of our other doctors yesterday, and he said that she should be to a point of stepping away from Methadone without any withdrawals. My wife would love to hear that fact from someone who's been there!

She has also read enough on boards and in books to know that there are Methadone programs that believe in "methadone maintenance" for life -- and she wants to believe that that's OK as long as it keeps her feeling "normal."

She also worries (from her reading) that "if this is not done right" then she will relapse and again be craving Hydro.

My gut feeling is that she was on a small amount of Hydro (compared to others that we've heard of) and subsequently a small amount of Methadone, therefore, shouldn't we expect that any withdrawals be minor? This is my main question.

Assuming that this "step away" is really IT, what advice does anyone have in dealing the mental side of being drug free (for someone who's been accustomed to taking pills for so long).

I appreciate your input!

I have had the same experience with Hydrocodone and Methadone. I will just share a little about my feelings. I was taking hydrocodone for pain management and then graduated to methadone which I also became addicted to. That addiction led me in directions I never thought I would go. In May 2006 I overdosed on Methadone and almost died. As soon as I got out of the hospital I was using it again. I had to have it. I was totally addicted....physically and mentally.

Have you ever heard that Methadone is "Synthetic Heroin"? Well, I got addicted to Methadone which is not that easy to get your hands on. The Pharmacy is very strict about not filling your scripts early. So, I had to find another source to feed my addiction. Someone I met in Rehab. introduced me to heroin....and the rest is history. I eventually did quit all drugs. But Methadone was by far the worse detox I have ever experienced !! It took me about 9 months to get all of that out of my system and return to normal. The last thing to go was the twitching. My arms and legs would jerk and if I was laying down my whole body would jerk. I would advise anyone that is considering taking Methadone on a long term basis to get more info. from others that have experienced it. The Doc's don't know what it's like ! Methadone is very dangerous...very hard to kick...and a hellish detox. I wish you and your wife all the best