Chelle2
02-06-2005, 12:12 PM
Hi, I would like to know what anyone thinks about Actonel. I have been on it for nearly two yrs.
Sponsor
taape
02-06-2005, 08:09 PM
Hi,
Has your bone density improved in the last 2 years? If it's helping you and you can tolerate it, take it until you don't need it anymore. How do you tolerate the side effects? Does it bother your stomach? I took Fosamax for 3 weeks and had to stop taking it due to stomach problems.
Has your bone density improved in the last 2 years? If it's helping you and you can tolerate it, take it until you don't need it anymore. How do you tolerate the side effects? Does it bother your stomach? I took Fosamax for 3 weeks and had to stop taking it due to stomach problems.
Chelle2
02-08-2005, 06:25 AM
I do not get any side effects. I will be going for a bone density scan to see if taking Actonel helped. I am only 45 and hope that I don't have to take it very long just because I hate taking medication. When my gynecologist prescribed Actonel, he said he wanted me to take it instead of Fasomax because of Fasomax's side effects...but they're virtually the same drug, right ? What did you take or do when you discovered you couldn't tolerate the Fosamax ?
taape
02-08-2005, 11:29 PM
When I quickly realized that I couldn't tolerate Fosamax or anything similar I asked to be put on Forteo after I did some research about it. My doctor agreed since my problem is so severe. I don't have any side effects from it that I know of. Your lucky that you could take the Actonel it didn't bother your stomach.
olivep
03-24-2005, 10:40 PM
Hi Chelle....I have had osteoporosis for many years, firstly being on HRT and calcium and then after a breast cancer scare (negative) went off the HRT and on to calcitrol. Tests for next few years were quite good and density not too bad. Havent had one for a coupole of years (shifting house) then ten weeks ago had a T12 compressed fracture. Dr. prescribed Actonel. I had my first dose in the morning and that night was rushed to hospital with a heavy bowel haemorrhage. In hospital for that week until a colonoscopy the following week. Have had diverticula disease for many years too but never ever had any bleeding. Just cant believe it was a coincidence. Doctors all wont commit themselves one way or another about the cause, but I will never take another Actonel tablet. Dont know where I can go from here. But be careful and aware. Hope you never have any bad effects and that it works for you. Cheers
jacal5
03-25-2005, 05:42 PM
I have osteopenia in my hip only, so my doctor prescribed Actonel. I went home and did some research, and found that some less common side effects of Actonel are heart disease and skin cancer, so I decided not to take it.
I'm trying calcium, magnesuim, zinc supplements and exercise instead.
The doc called me to see if I filled the prescription (isn't that odd that he took the time to call me?). I told him I wasn't going to take it, so he wasn't very happy. I told him since only 50% of women who get osteoporosis will have a bone break I would take my chances. He said "oh my, you have really done your homework!" I had the feeling he was more concerned about pushing the drug on me, than worrying about me getting osteoporosis.
I did read that it might be better to stop Actonel for a while if you are taking it regularly to allow bone remodeling to occur (Actonel stops the bone remodeling process).
I figure since I don't have osteoporosis yet, I may not get it at all. If it does develop and I need drugs, maybe a better, safer drug will be available
in the near future.
I'm trying calcium, magnesuim, zinc supplements and exercise instead.
The doc called me to see if I filled the prescription (isn't that odd that he took the time to call me?). I told him I wasn't going to take it, so he wasn't very happy. I told him since only 50% of women who get osteoporosis will have a bone break I would take my chances. He said "oh my, you have really done your homework!" I had the feeling he was more concerned about pushing the drug on me, than worrying about me getting osteoporosis.
I did read that it might be better to stop Actonel for a while if you are taking it regularly to allow bone remodeling to occur (Actonel stops the bone remodeling process).
I figure since I don't have osteoporosis yet, I may not get it at all. If it does develop and I need drugs, maybe a better, safer drug will be available
in the near future.
taape
03-25-2005, 09:51 PM
Bone loss is hard to reverse but I hope it works for you without any medications.
jacal5
03-26-2005, 09:24 AM
Thanks for your response and good wishes. I have read several times that Actonel and Fosoma do not build bone. I have copied this paragraph from another poster who explains what I have read better than I could have:
"Fosamax and it's sister drugs do not build living bone. It is a poison acid in the same class as soap scum remover. It kills the osteoclasts that normally scrub away old, dead bone cells to make way for the osteoblasts to follow and fill in with new, living bone cells. So, Fosamax allows the dead bone to build up instead of being removed. That looks great on a scan, but after several years, this bone is very weak because it is layer upon layer of dead stuff."
This is why I decided to go against my doctor's advice and wait and see
if I develop osteoporosis, and if I do, maybe a better drug will be available.
It is controversial that these drugs are even effective if a person has osteopenia and does not have osteoporosis yet.
Another interesting item I read is that the bone density measurement for osteoporosis recently was pushed down to 2.5, from higher readings.
This means more people on the drugs, just like they are doing wth cholesterol measurements.
Last year my total cholesterol was 300 and my doctor gave me Lipitor. I did not take it and went to a nutritionist instead. She gave me natural supplements to reduce fats and I started to eat oat bran every morning and I cut out saturated fats and trans fats in my diet. Two weeks ago my total cholesterol was 172!
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
"Fosamax and it's sister drugs do not build living bone. It is a poison acid in the same class as soap scum remover. It kills the osteoclasts that normally scrub away old, dead bone cells to make way for the osteoblasts to follow and fill in with new, living bone cells. So, Fosamax allows the dead bone to build up instead of being removed. That looks great on a scan, but after several years, this bone is very weak because it is layer upon layer of dead stuff."
This is why I decided to go against my doctor's advice and wait and see
if I develop osteoporosis, and if I do, maybe a better drug will be available.
It is controversial that these drugs are even effective if a person has osteopenia and does not have osteoporosis yet.
Another interesting item I read is that the bone density measurement for osteoporosis recently was pushed down to 2.5, from higher readings.
This means more people on the drugs, just like they are doing wth cholesterol measurements.
Last year my total cholesterol was 300 and my doctor gave me Lipitor. I did not take it and went to a nutritionist instead. She gave me natural supplements to reduce fats and I started to eat oat bran every morning and I cut out saturated fats and trans fats in my diet. Two weeks ago my total cholesterol was 172!
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
Chelle2
03-26-2005, 05:24 PM
Hi Chelle....I have had osteoporosis for many years, firstly being on HRT and calcium and then after a breast cancer scare (negative) went off the HRT and on to calcitrol. Tests for next few years were quite good and density not too bad. Havent had one for a coupole of years (shifting house) then ten weeks ago had a T12 compressed fracture. Dr. prescribed Actonel. I had my first dose in the morning and that night was rushed to hospital with a heavy bowel haemorrhage. In hospital for that week until a colonoscopy the following week. Have had diverticula disease for many years too but never ever had any bleeding. Just cant believe it was a coincidence. Doctors all wont commit themselves one way or another about the cause, but I will never take another Actonel tablet. Dont know where I can go from here. But be careful and aware. Hope you never have any bad effects and that it works for you. Cheers
Thanks for writing. I haven't had any negative side affects . I will find out how my density is this summer when I go for another bone density test.
Thanks for writing. I haven't had any negative side affects . I will find out how my density is this summer when I go for another bone density test.
Chelle2
03-26-2005, 05:33 PM
Thanks for your response and good wishes. I have read several times that Actonel and Fosoma do not build bone. I have copied this paragraph from another poster who explains what I have read better than I could have:
"Fosamax and it's sister drugs do not build living bone. It is a poison acid in the same class as soap scum remover. It kills the osteoclasts that normally scrub away old, dead bone cells to make way for the osteoblasts to follow and fill in with new, living bone cells. So, Fosamax allows the dead bone to build up instead of being removed. That looks great on a scan, but after several years, this bone is very weak because it is layer upon layer of dead stuff."
This is why I decided to go against my doctor's advice and wait and see
if I develop osteoporosis, and if I do, maybe a better drug will be available.
It is controversial that these drugs are even effective if a person has osteopenia and does not have osteoporosis yet.
Another interesting item I read is that the bone density measurement for osteoporosis recently was pushed down to 2.5, from higher readings.
This means more people on the drugs, just like they are doing wth cholesterol measurements.
Last year my total cholesterol was 300 and my doctor gave me Lipitor. I did not take it and went to a nutritionist instead. She gave me natural supplements to reduce fats and I started to eat oat bran every morning and I cut out saturated fats and trans fats in my diet. Two weeks ago my total cholesterol was 172!
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
I would like to know the source of this information. It's the first time I've heard this and I have read about traditional and organic approaches.
"Fosamax and it's sister drugs do not build living bone. It is a poison acid in the same class as soap scum remover. It kills the osteoclasts that normally scrub away old, dead bone cells to make way for the osteoblasts to follow and fill in with new, living bone cells. So, Fosamax allows the dead bone to build up instead of being removed. That looks great on a scan, but after several years, this bone is very weak because it is layer upon layer of dead stuff."
This is why I decided to go against my doctor's advice and wait and see
if I develop osteoporosis, and if I do, maybe a better drug will be available.
It is controversial that these drugs are even effective if a person has osteopenia and does not have osteoporosis yet.
Another interesting item I read is that the bone density measurement for osteoporosis recently was pushed down to 2.5, from higher readings.
This means more people on the drugs, just like they are doing wth cholesterol measurements.
Last year my total cholesterol was 300 and my doctor gave me Lipitor. I did not take it and went to a nutritionist instead. She gave me natural supplements to reduce fats and I started to eat oat bran every morning and I cut out saturated fats and trans fats in my diet. Two weeks ago my total cholesterol was 172!
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
I would like to know the source of this information. It's the first time I've heard this and I have read about traditional and organic approaches.
taape
03-26-2005, 05:50 PM
I know someone who took Actonel for 4 years and their bone density has virtually returned to normal. It must have helped build bone because if it only kept bone from breaking down there wouldn't be the improvement seen.
jacal5
03-27-2005, 02:23 AM
I don't know what information in my post you are referring to, the cholesterol supplements or the bone health supplements. so I'll post both:
For cholesterol I take Policosanol and Plant Sterols.
For bone health I take Calcium citrate, magnesium with Vitamin K (but not at the same time as the calcium), zinc, a pharmaceutical grade advanced formula three tablet multi-vitamin which include trace minerals for bones like boron. I also started to eat collard greens and kale and other greens which contain calcium, in addition to dairy (except milk, which my nutritionist told
me leaches the calcium out of the bone, so I eat yogurt instead.) There was a report on the news last week that calcium from milk is not absorbed in the body.
I won't know if the supplements for bone health are working until I take another bone density test, but the nutritionist told me her customers have seen an increase in bone density on this protocol, so we'll see.
I hope this answers your question.
For cholesterol I take Policosanol and Plant Sterols.
For bone health I take Calcium citrate, magnesium with Vitamin K (but not at the same time as the calcium), zinc, a pharmaceutical grade advanced formula three tablet multi-vitamin which include trace minerals for bones like boron. I also started to eat collard greens and kale and other greens which contain calcium, in addition to dairy (except milk, which my nutritionist told
me leaches the calcium out of the bone, so I eat yogurt instead.) There was a report on the news last week that calcium from milk is not absorbed in the body.
I won't know if the supplements for bone health are working until I take another bone density test, but the nutritionist told me her customers have seen an increase in bone density on this protocol, so we'll see.
I hope this answers your question.
peregrine
03-28-2005, 10:19 AM
For bone health I take Calcium citrate, magnesium with Vitamin K (but not at the same time as the calcium),
jacal,
What was the reason given by your nutritionist for not taking the mag and K at the same time as the calcium?
jacal,
What was the reason given by your nutritionist for not taking the mag and K at the same time as the calcium?
jacal5
03-28-2005, 04:16 PM
The nutritionist told me that magnesium can block calcium absorption so she gave me separate supplements for calcium and magesium and told me not to take them together. Before I went to the nutritionist I was taking a powdered
calcium/magnesium supplement for a year. I would put a scoopful in a drink twice a day. After the year I took the bone density test, and my hip was slightly worse than the year before at 2.3, and my spine just started osteopenia, which wasn't there the year before. I was so disappointed at the results, because my doctor lead me to believe that just taking calcium supplements would improve my bone density.
Anyway, after my bone density got worse, I took out all the books in the library I could find on osteoporosis. In my opinion the best one out of the bunch was "The Bone Density Diet." Don't let the title fool you, it's not just about the correct foods to eat, it contains all the vital information you need for bone health.
The book stated that magnesium can block calcium absorption (agreeing with the nutritionist), and so can zinc. I take zinc separately also. I also carry it further, if I am drinking calcium fortified orange juice or any high calcium food, I won't take my magnesium or zinc supplement with it.
In addition, I like to take my supplements with food, but if I am eating fiber, like oat bran for breakfast, I wait an hour or two before I take any vitamin or supplement to get the optimal benefit. This advice is in the book also.
As you can see, this balancing act I am doing can get complicated, and to add more confusion I have to take my cholesterol supplements at the correct times also. I am glad I'm retired and able to eat at home, but it still drives me crazy at times and I forget to take something!
calcium/magnesium supplement for a year. I would put a scoopful in a drink twice a day. After the year I took the bone density test, and my hip was slightly worse than the year before at 2.3, and my spine just started osteopenia, which wasn't there the year before. I was so disappointed at the results, because my doctor lead me to believe that just taking calcium supplements would improve my bone density.
Anyway, after my bone density got worse, I took out all the books in the library I could find on osteoporosis. In my opinion the best one out of the bunch was "The Bone Density Diet." Don't let the title fool you, it's not just about the correct foods to eat, it contains all the vital information you need for bone health.
The book stated that magnesium can block calcium absorption (agreeing with the nutritionist), and so can zinc. I take zinc separately also. I also carry it further, if I am drinking calcium fortified orange juice or any high calcium food, I won't take my magnesium or zinc supplement with it.
In addition, I like to take my supplements with food, but if I am eating fiber, like oat bran for breakfast, I wait an hour or two before I take any vitamin or supplement to get the optimal benefit. This advice is in the book also.
As you can see, this balancing act I am doing can get complicated, and to add more confusion I have to take my cholesterol supplements at the correct times also. I am glad I'm retired and able to eat at home, but it still drives me crazy at times and I forget to take something!
peregrine
03-29-2005, 07:23 AM
jacal,
Thanks for the info. I did an Internet search and could find nothing about calcium supplements being compromised by taking them along with magnesium, zinc or Vitamin K. I think this important to clarify because many calcium supplements also contain magnesium. I'm open to this interesting information and I'm certainly willing to change my protocol, if necessary, but I would like to read this information myself. You mentioned the book, but any web sites you can recommend for research that support this theory?
Thanks,
P.
Thanks for the info. I did an Internet search and could find nothing about calcium supplements being compromised by taking them along with magnesium, zinc or Vitamin K. I think this important to clarify because many calcium supplements also contain magnesium. I'm open to this interesting information and I'm certainly willing to change my protocol, if necessary, but I would like to read this information myself. You mentioned the book, but any web sites you can recommend for research that support this theory?
Thanks,
P.
Aleta145
03-29-2005, 01:31 PM
jacal,
Thanks for the info. I did an Internet search and could find nothing about calcium supplements being compromised by taking them along with magnesium, zinc or Vitamin K. I think this important to clarify because many calcium supplements also contain magnesium. I'm open to this interesting information and I'm certainly willing to change my protocol, if necessary, but I would like to read this information myself. You mentioned the book, but any web sites you can recommend for research that support this theory?
Thanks,
P.
I'm with you, Peregrine. If there's anything out there on the subject, it's not coming up on my search engine either, and I used "magnesium can block calcium absorption" as my search string. I got nothing. In fact, I'm seeing more hits attesting to the opposite: "You should take calcium at bedtime with magnesium because they work together to relax your muscles and help you fall asleep." [Since calcium helps your muscles contract and magnesium helps them relax.] From another site: "While excessive calcium intake causes magnesium deficiencies, higher magnesium intake increases the intestinal absorption of calcium and increases serum ionized calcium. Magnesium has a calcium-sparing effect and thereby decreases the need for calcium."
Thanks for the info. I did an Internet search and could find nothing about calcium supplements being compromised by taking them along with magnesium, zinc or Vitamin K. I think this important to clarify because many calcium supplements also contain magnesium. I'm open to this interesting information and I'm certainly willing to change my protocol, if necessary, but I would like to read this information myself. You mentioned the book, but any web sites you can recommend for research that support this theory?
Thanks,
P.
I'm with you, Peregrine. If there's anything out there on the subject, it's not coming up on my search engine either, and I used "magnesium can block calcium absorption" as my search string. I got nothing. In fact, I'm seeing more hits attesting to the opposite: "You should take calcium at bedtime with magnesium because they work together to relax your muscles and help you fall asleep." [Since calcium helps your muscles contract and magnesium helps them relax.] From another site: "While excessive calcium intake causes magnesium deficiencies, higher magnesium intake increases the intestinal absorption of calcium and increases serum ionized calcium. Magnesium has a calcium-sparing effect and thereby decreases the need for calcium."
jacal5
03-29-2005, 03:44 PM
Hi everyone,
Your welcome, I just read Howdy49's post regarding calcium competition. I did some fast research, and I came across three web-sites stating magnesium and calcuim compete for absoprtion. I don't have time to do more research and post the web-sites right now, I have a nine year old coming home from school soon and I tutor her so she can do her homework. Give me a little time and I will be more than happy to post them for you.
I don't really see the conflict in the information people are posting regarding magnesium aiding the absoprtion of calcium. If that's the case, just take the magnesium at a different time than calcium because they both go through the same channels (according to the book, I am not a medical person) to get maximum benefit.
"The Bone Density Diet" book is very good, take it out of the library, you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't. I was shocked to read that many of the foods I thought were high in calcium, don't get absorbed, because they contain oxalates, and many web-sites have them on a high calcium food list and don't even address this issue! I changed my diet radically after reading the book.
My nutritionist did right by me in getting my total cholesterol down from 300 to 172 in six months with supplements and diet advice with no drugs. If it wasn't for her I would be on Lipitor like my doctor wanted and ruining my system, so I am going to follow her advice regarding taking calcium and magnesium separately, and see if my DEXA scan improves.
Your welcome, I just read Howdy49's post regarding calcium competition. I did some fast research, and I came across three web-sites stating magnesium and calcuim compete for absoprtion. I don't have time to do more research and post the web-sites right now, I have a nine year old coming home from school soon and I tutor her so she can do her homework. Give me a little time and I will be more than happy to post them for you.
I don't really see the conflict in the information people are posting regarding magnesium aiding the absoprtion of calcium. If that's the case, just take the magnesium at a different time than calcium because they both go through the same channels (according to the book, I am not a medical person) to get maximum benefit.
"The Bone Density Diet" book is very good, take it out of the library, you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't. I was shocked to read that many of the foods I thought were high in calcium, don't get absorbed, because they contain oxalates, and many web-sites have them on a high calcium food list and don't even address this issue! I changed my diet radically after reading the book.
My nutritionist did right by me in getting my total cholesterol down from 300 to 172 in six months with supplements and diet advice with no drugs. If it wasn't for her I would be on Lipitor like my doctor wanted and ruining my system, so I am going to follow her advice regarding taking calcium and magnesium separately, and see if my DEXA scan improves.
Howdy49
03-29-2005, 09:22 PM
Wow, that second site is a very nice find, jacal. Lots of good info in just one site!
I guess we should just take them seperately to be on the safe side? I've also heard that ratios are more important than the amount. If you keep it at a 2:1 cal/mag ratio, maybe calcium wins and magnesium follows.
I guess we should just take them seperately to be on the safe side? I've also heard that ratios are more important than the amount. If you keep it at a 2:1 cal/mag ratio, maybe calcium wins and magnesium follows.
Howdy49
03-29-2005, 09:37 PM
Actually I don't think I should either. Well anyways it does have some conflicting ideas.
jacal5
03-29-2005, 11:48 PM
Thanks Howdy, I saved that site so I can read through it carefully. Thanks for posting the info, some message boards I've been on don't allow copying
from web-sites, so that's why I didn't do it, I wasn't sure what the rules were
for these boards.
My supplements don't give me a 2:1 ratio. My magnesium/k supplements
are 200 mg each. I take two daily, and my multivitamin has some magnesium.
I usually take 1,000 mg. calcium supplements daily, and make up the other 500 mg. with food. I eat the foods containing magnesium daily, so I guess it's enough.
I was lifting 2, 3, and 5 pound weights and hoping to increase to 8 pounds, but I haven't been able to because I have a bad back. I was reading about a woman who increased her bone density lifting 8 pound weights.
I went to an endocrinologist and she said it is rare to have severe osteopenia in the hip, and not in the spine, like I have. On the other hand, I have read on-line about several people who have it in the hip only, I don't get it.
Anyway she sent me for blood tests and a hip x-ray to make sure there were no tumors that the DEXA scan might have picked up and misread as low bone
density, but there was nothing. The blood test showed that my Vitamin D
absorption is very good. She told me I still have time to wait for better medications to come on the market if I decide to medicate down the road if
osteoporosis develops. I'm in my 5th year of menopause, and I read that's when bone loss can slow or stop, so we'll see.
from web-sites, so that's why I didn't do it, I wasn't sure what the rules were
for these boards.
My supplements don't give me a 2:1 ratio. My magnesium/k supplements
are 200 mg each. I take two daily, and my multivitamin has some magnesium.
I usually take 1,000 mg. calcium supplements daily, and make up the other 500 mg. with food. I eat the foods containing magnesium daily, so I guess it's enough.
I was lifting 2, 3, and 5 pound weights and hoping to increase to 8 pounds, but I haven't been able to because I have a bad back. I was reading about a woman who increased her bone density lifting 8 pound weights.
I went to an endocrinologist and she said it is rare to have severe osteopenia in the hip, and not in the spine, like I have. On the other hand, I have read on-line about several people who have it in the hip only, I don't get it.
Anyway she sent me for blood tests and a hip x-ray to make sure there were no tumors that the DEXA scan might have picked up and misread as low bone
density, but there was nothing. The blood test showed that my Vitamin D
absorption is very good. She told me I still have time to wait for better medications to come on the market if I decide to medicate down the road if
osteoporosis develops. I'm in my 5th year of menopause, and I read that's when bone loss can slow or stop, so we'll see.
Aleta145
03-30-2005, 12:59 PM
Yes, thank you jacal5! That second link is extremely helpful. I find it interesting that fiber also competes (not sure if that's the right word) with calcium. So why add calcium to cereals if the fiber is going to cancel it out? Or does the calcium cancel out the fiber? :confused: So we're changing our vitamin regimen: No more calcium with breakfast cereal. Switching to calcium citrate so we can take it at any time, instead of with meals. No magnesium supplement within 2 hours of calcium. Good grief! :dizzy:
jacal5
03-31-2005, 08:35 AM
Your welcome to both of you! I am so happy that both of you feel I have given you some worthwhile information, you made my day!
The point regarding the calcium fortified cereals is a good one, I have thought about the inappropriate mixing of calcium with foods and supplements, like calcium in antacids (a little acid helps calcium absoprtion), or calcium in chocolate chews (chocolate contain oxalates which block absorption).
I think the calcium/fiber issue has to do with fiber not staying in the body long enough. In other words, if the calcium supplement is taken with the fiber, it willl just be eliminated too quickly.
I eat oat bran every morning to keep my cholesterol levels normal, and oat bran is one of the foods that blocks absorption, so I get up early and have a piece of toast with my supplements and then have my oat bran mid-morning.
Ii have read other negative things about calcium carbonate besides the fact it needs to be take with food, so I take calcium citrate.
I will continue to post pertinent info...
The point regarding the calcium fortified cereals is a good one, I have thought about the inappropriate mixing of calcium with foods and supplements, like calcium in antacids (a little acid helps calcium absoprtion), or calcium in chocolate chews (chocolate contain oxalates which block absorption).
I think the calcium/fiber issue has to do with fiber not staying in the body long enough. In other words, if the calcium supplement is taken with the fiber, it willl just be eliminated too quickly.
I eat oat bran every morning to keep my cholesterol levels normal, and oat bran is one of the foods that blocks absorption, so I get up early and have a piece of toast with my supplements and then have my oat bran mid-morning.
Ii have read other negative things about calcium carbonate besides the fact it needs to be take with food, so I take calcium citrate.
I will continue to post pertinent info...
Howdy49
04-04-2005, 11:33 PM
Yes, thank you jacal5! That second link is extremely helpful. I find it interesting that fiber also competes (not sure if that's the right word) with calcium. So why add calcium to cereals if the fiber is going to cancel it out? Or does the calcium cancel out the fiber? :confused: So we're changing our vitamin regimen: No more calcium with breakfast cereal. Switching to calcium citrate so we can take it at any time, instead of with meals. No magnesium supplement within 2 hours of calcium. Good grief! :dizzy:
Within 2 hours of calcium? Source? I thought it would be something like 4-5 hours.
Oh and most sites say that magnesium PROMOTES calcium absorption from the stomach. So the ideal plan would be to take magnesium and then some calcium(after 2 hrs?) so they don't compete and you absorb the calcium. :cool:
Within 2 hours of calcium? Source? I thought it would be something like 4-5 hours.
Oh and most sites say that magnesium PROMOTES calcium absorption from the stomach. So the ideal plan would be to take magnesium and then some calcium(after 2 hrs?) so they don't compete and you absorb the calcium. :cool:
Rev11:17
04-07-2005, 11:08 AM
I'm trying to see if more people had problems as I on Actonel. I took it two weeks (only 2 tablets) and was having severe gallbladder pain. Never had problems until the actonel with any disgestion. My mother developed the same problems after taking actonel too, what are the odds of that?
peregrine
04-07-2005, 11:34 AM
My mother developed the same problems after taking actonel too, what are the odds of that?
Actually,probably high. I had horrendous GI problems, felt like I had been poisoned. As soon as I discontinued use the problems went away almost immediately.
Actually,probably high. I had horrendous GI problems, felt like I had been poisoned. As soon as I discontinued use the problems went away almost immediately.
bonehead
05-28-2005, 08:47 AM
The most recent data would suggest that Fosamax and Actonel are tolerated the same. The study also showed that patients increased BMD more with Fosamax and more patients actually had increases in their BMD (ie: responded to the drug) for Fosamax. So, if they are tolerated the same....perhaps Fosamax is slightly better.
taape
06-01-2005, 09:50 PM
I'm sorry to hear that you have Paget's Disease - I'm alittle bit familiar with it from working at a hospital. I hope the Actonel can get it stopped quickly. I wonder if there's anything else you can be given if you continue to have side effects from the Actonel. Maybe something for your stomach or pain medicine while your on it. I was wondering how this was diagnosed, was it by xray? I hope you can tolerate the treatment and start feeling better soon.
Sunchild45
06-10-2005, 08:35 AM
Hi, I would like to know what anyone thinks about Actonel. I have been on it for nearly two yrs.
Hi, i am new to this board and website, so please excuse me if i make a mistake, GYN wants me to take Actonel. I filled the presc. and read side effects and i am against taking this medicine. I am worried about Esphophagus damage, ulcers, also of stomach, i have problems with my colon anyway, do not want to make that worse. I walk every day just about, have for 10 yrs, was surprised since i try to make an effort to help myself with diet, exercise, started using dumbbells 2 yrs ago. I was told the Bone density test showed Bone loss in my legs, Osteopenia. So was hoping to find out if i am better off not taking it or if anyone else has been on it for a few years? I thought i read where you cannot take it more than 10 yrs. I was reading your posts, learning alot there. But find it all a bit confusing also. I wondered also if one Calcium supplement is better than another especially if having stomach problems, IBS. Thanks for any help/infor you can give to me.
Hi, i am new to this board and website, so please excuse me if i make a mistake, GYN wants me to take Actonel. I filled the presc. and read side effects and i am against taking this medicine. I am worried about Esphophagus damage, ulcers, also of stomach, i have problems with my colon anyway, do not want to make that worse. I walk every day just about, have for 10 yrs, was surprised since i try to make an effort to help myself with diet, exercise, started using dumbbells 2 yrs ago. I was told the Bone density test showed Bone loss in my legs, Osteopenia. So was hoping to find out if i am better off not taking it or if anyone else has been on it for a few years? I thought i read where you cannot take it more than 10 yrs. I was reading your posts, learning alot there. But find it all a bit confusing also. I wondered also if one Calcium supplement is better than another especially if having stomach problems, IBS. Thanks for any help/infor you can give to me.
Marie55
06-10-2005, 05:13 PM
Sunchild45,
From my personal experience with Actonel for Osteopenia and sitting at the doorway of osteoporosis, I would think long and hard before taking it. You would be wise to search for side effects, search, search, search, read, read, read, read before ever trying it.
I took Actonel once a week for 6-weeks and ended up with side effects galore and allergic reactions. Felt like 2 or 3 big-rig-trucks ran over me. Had acid reflux (felt like foam up in throat but no acid taste), itching all over, ache/hurt all over especially from waist to end of toes, big toe joints pain, fingers stiff/sore, gas, bloating, gas pains, grippy tummy, pain in feet (feels like bone pain, most likely Actonel caused inflammation in feet and then walking treadmill caused Plantar Fasciitis), hands sweating, nervous system topsy turvy, gained weight, dry eyes worse, plus others. The past 8 weeks has been horrible/pain.
My research revealed there is only a 2% improvement and it may only be in the lower back but hips be worse ( or no improvement). That is not enough improvement to merit all the side effects that may stay with you for a long, long time since the life of the med is anywhere from 2, 5, 10 years remaining in the body.
Actonel and Fosmax are both "bisphosphonates", side effects about the same.
Some people seem to tolerate the med and others do not. Many I have run across claim they are doing o.k. but do have GERD as a result. One lady looked like she had lizard skin all over her face and hands when she came out of my doctor's office and I asked what was her problem. She said it was reaction to Fosmax.
Had I known then what I know now about Actonel I would have never taken it.
The patient info is not sufficient to clue in to all the problems with Actonel, do more research and learn all you can about the bisphosphonates.
I stopped taking Actonel and have increased calcium intake in the form of Citrical +D 3 times day plus Magnesium 250 mg 3 times day, drink milk, eat cheese (cottage cheese rinsed), yogurt, and get 15 minutes sunshine daily. Will see what the next bone scan will show. I have always been in the shade, house under canopy of trees, stayed out of sun to prevent skin cancer and most likely as a result low in vitamin D which is necessary for the body to absorb calcium from food and/or supplements.
From my personal experience with Actonel for Osteopenia and sitting at the doorway of osteoporosis, I would think long and hard before taking it. You would be wise to search for side effects, search, search, search, read, read, read, read before ever trying it.
I took Actonel once a week for 6-weeks and ended up with side effects galore and allergic reactions. Felt like 2 or 3 big-rig-trucks ran over me. Had acid reflux (felt like foam up in throat but no acid taste), itching all over, ache/hurt all over especially from waist to end of toes, big toe joints pain, fingers stiff/sore, gas, bloating, gas pains, grippy tummy, pain in feet (feels like bone pain, most likely Actonel caused inflammation in feet and then walking treadmill caused Plantar Fasciitis), hands sweating, nervous system topsy turvy, gained weight, dry eyes worse, plus others. The past 8 weeks has been horrible/pain.
My research revealed there is only a 2% improvement and it may only be in the lower back but hips be worse ( or no improvement). That is not enough improvement to merit all the side effects that may stay with you for a long, long time since the life of the med is anywhere from 2, 5, 10 years remaining in the body.
Actonel and Fosmax are both "bisphosphonates", side effects about the same.
Some people seem to tolerate the med and others do not. Many I have run across claim they are doing o.k. but do have GERD as a result. One lady looked like she had lizard skin all over her face and hands when she came out of my doctor's office and I asked what was her problem. She said it was reaction to Fosmax.
Had I known then what I know now about Actonel I would have never taken it.
The patient info is not sufficient to clue in to all the problems with Actonel, do more research and learn all you can about the bisphosphonates.
I stopped taking Actonel and have increased calcium intake in the form of Citrical +D 3 times day plus Magnesium 250 mg 3 times day, drink milk, eat cheese (cottage cheese rinsed), yogurt, and get 15 minutes sunshine daily. Will see what the next bone scan will show. I have always been in the shade, house under canopy of trees, stayed out of sun to prevent skin cancer and most likely as a result low in vitamin D which is necessary for the body to absorb calcium from food and/or supplements.
Sunchild45
06-10-2005, 06:12 PM
Thank you both for your quick reply. Daisysmom, Thank you and I am so sorry and I hope this medicine helps you, Good Luck to you also!!
I believe from what i have read so far, here and other websites, i will wait and consult my family doctor and my gastro. My GYN did not take a blood test, she is going just by the Bone Density Test. Never asked me about prior problems being IBS, Diverticulosis, High BP, High Cholesterol, CVI. So she jumped the gun as far as i am concerned. I never talked to her directly, just to her nurse. I do not even know my score, how bad or how good! The nurse seemed to believe minimal bone loss.
Marie, Thank you and Good luck to you! I agree whole heartedly. I want to know how many successes and how many with major problems not present before this medicine. I believe they need more time to check the safety of this drug and according to the side effects i believe it is best for me to avoid since i still have an option. I do need to start taking Calcium, in past i have not had good luck, i have symptoms of Kidney stones after 30 days. Do either of you know of a good one when have stomach problems? Which is best? Easiest on your stomach? Or one that does not contribute to Kidney stones? lol Is the Citrical easy on the stomach? Any Kidney stones assoc. with that?
Thanks again for your help to both of you, God Bless You. My biggest wish is they would spend more money to help the women of this country by doing more work to make sure what they are giving us is safe and why they are giving it to us and if it is going to make us healthier. Not kill us in process!! Not be the salemen for the Pharmaceutical Co. Thank you again!!
I believe from what i have read so far, here and other websites, i will wait and consult my family doctor and my gastro. My GYN did not take a blood test, she is going just by the Bone Density Test. Never asked me about prior problems being IBS, Diverticulosis, High BP, High Cholesterol, CVI. So she jumped the gun as far as i am concerned. I never talked to her directly, just to her nurse. I do not even know my score, how bad or how good! The nurse seemed to believe minimal bone loss.
Marie, Thank you and Good luck to you! I agree whole heartedly. I want to know how many successes and how many with major problems not present before this medicine. I believe they need more time to check the safety of this drug and according to the side effects i believe it is best for me to avoid since i still have an option. I do need to start taking Calcium, in past i have not had good luck, i have symptoms of Kidney stones after 30 days. Do either of you know of a good one when have stomach problems? Which is best? Easiest on your stomach? Or one that does not contribute to Kidney stones? lol Is the Citrical easy on the stomach? Any Kidney stones assoc. with that?
Thanks again for your help to both of you, God Bless You. My biggest wish is they would spend more money to help the women of this country by doing more work to make sure what they are giving us is safe and why they are giving it to us and if it is going to make us healthier. Not kill us in process!! Not be the salemen for the Pharmaceutical Co. Thank you again!!
Marie55
06-10-2005, 10:55 PM
Sunchild45,
Ask your doctor which calcium would be best and how to control kidney stones.
Dr. Pak at Southwestern Medical School suggests Citracal for the prevention of osteoporosis and Urocit-K for the control of kidney stones - as well as widely recognized diagnostic methods for measuring the risk factors for kidney stones.
My daughter has problems with kidney stones and found that if she drinks distilled water she does not have a problem. The city where she lives has lots of limestone and most likely is a problem for her. She is not taking calcium at this time.
Ask your doctor which calcium would be best and how to control kidney stones.
Dr. Pak at Southwestern Medical School suggests Citracal for the prevention of osteoporosis and Urocit-K for the control of kidney stones - as well as widely recognized diagnostic methods for measuring the risk factors for kidney stones.
My daughter has problems with kidney stones and found that if she drinks distilled water she does not have a problem. The city where she lives has lots of limestone and most likely is a problem for her. She is not taking calcium at this time.
Sunchild45
06-10-2005, 11:39 PM
Hi Daisysmom and Marie, what is Urocit-K? I am not familiar with that one.
I will see what i can find out about the test results, calcium etc. with my gyn, family doctor and gastro specialist. Hopefully one or more of them can help me. All i know is i have been lucky so far and do not want to take something that will put me at more serious health risks if not necessary. I am not used to taking medicine that lists such a wide range of health problems. There wasn't much left out on the lists i have seen lol. It pretty well included every health problem imaginable. I do not plan on taking anything until someone gives me alot more answers!! I will get back here as soon as i know something new.
I am in South Florida, my husband retired less than a yr ago. I have all new doctors, just need to make sure reasons are good ones to go on such a drug with so many many side effects. Must be a very powerful drug. I am considering talking to my past family doctor and gastro and gyn i had for many years in my hometown also and see if they can help me with some advice. My GYN here i have never met yet, i see the nurse practitioner? I believe that is her title. Not sure!! So will make sure she or the GYN talk to me, explaining all. And she does the blood test for low calcium serum first before putting me on the Actinol. Isn't that right? From what i have read here and other places on www, that should be done first before prescribing this medicine.
Yes, i agree, we are very lucky today to at least have more information at our fingertips. We can check and double check all information available and talk to one another about our past experiences before we agree to our treatment. I plan on having control over my body, my health issues, health decisions. I do not plan on taking anything or doing anything until i know why!!! Take care, i will let you know after i get into see them and then hopefully i can make some informed decisions about what i should and should not be doing! Talk to you as soon as i collect some new information.
I will see what i can find out about the test results, calcium etc. with my gyn, family doctor and gastro specialist. Hopefully one or more of them can help me. All i know is i have been lucky so far and do not want to take something that will put me at more serious health risks if not necessary. I am not used to taking medicine that lists such a wide range of health problems. There wasn't much left out on the lists i have seen lol. It pretty well included every health problem imaginable. I do not plan on taking anything until someone gives me alot more answers!! I will get back here as soon as i know something new.
I am in South Florida, my husband retired less than a yr ago. I have all new doctors, just need to make sure reasons are good ones to go on such a drug with so many many side effects. Must be a very powerful drug. I am considering talking to my past family doctor and gastro and gyn i had for many years in my hometown also and see if they can help me with some advice. My GYN here i have never met yet, i see the nurse practitioner? I believe that is her title. Not sure!! So will make sure she or the GYN talk to me, explaining all. And she does the blood test for low calcium serum first before putting me on the Actinol. Isn't that right? From what i have read here and other places on www, that should be done first before prescribing this medicine.
Yes, i agree, we are very lucky today to at least have more information at our fingertips. We can check and double check all information available and talk to one another about our past experiences before we agree to our treatment. I plan on having control over my body, my health issues, health decisions. I do not plan on taking anything or doing anything until i know why!!! Take care, i will let you know after i get into see them and then hopefully i can make some informed decisions about what i should and should not be doing! Talk to you as soon as i collect some new information.
Sunchild45
06-11-2005, 12:07 AM
One more thing i meant to tell you, i read an article by SUSAN LOVE and according to that i should not be on it, Actonel, should wait till better choices of meds are available. I have tried to find it again, i wanted to re-read it, have not been able to do so as of yet. So i have alot of research to do before making my decision. I just hope my new nurse practitioner at the gyn office is agreeable to me doing what i feel is necessary in making my decisions. Agrees i have the final say, if not i will have to look for a new GYN.
Sunchild45
06-11-2005, 12:17 AM
Forgot something else, i wanted to ask you both how long has this Actonel been on the market? I thought i read since '98 or '99? Not enough time to know what it does to our bodies. I want to make sure not taking something dangerous with alot of dangerous side effects. I realize all of us have different responses to meds, just do not feel one with such a wide range of side effects is best choice to take if possible. Also, i thought i read on www to take calcium at different times, say 1 -600 mg. tablet in morning and one in afternoon? Also should not take with magnesium at same time? Should take calcium and magnesium at different times, about two hrs apart? And not to take with cereal? I thought i read that here on this website but i am not sure. I have read so much since yesterday, i am not sure what i read and did not lol. Plus my son and daughter in law and grandkids are coming down tomorrow for my 60th b-day and then we are all going to DW for my b-day. Will be with MM on my b-day at DW lol. So have alot on my mind right now.
I hope that is all i wanted to say lol. If not will post more later.
I hope that is all i wanted to say lol. If not will post more later.
Marie55
06-11-2005, 09:40 PM
Sunchild45,
Urocit-K Potassium Citrate helps to prevent another kidney stone attack. Usually prevents formation of most stones in about 90% of patients. It is indicated for treatment for calcium and uric acid kidney stones.
It works by correcting the pH of the urine and elevates a naturally occurring urinary inhibitor and this helps control formation of new stones.
People with high levels of potassium in their blood due to conditions like: chronic renal failure, uncontrolled diabetes mellitus, acute dehydration, strenuous physical exercise in unconditioned people, adrenal insufficiency and anyone taking a potassium-sparing agent should not take Urocit-K. People with active peptic ulcers should not take this med. Anyone with a condition that impairs potassium excretion should not take this med. Do not take if you also take potassium-sparing diuretics.
Some people may develop gastrointestinal irritation such as abdominal discomfort, vomiting, diarrhea, loose bowels or nausea. Usually taking the med with meals or snacks will avoid these problems.
I do not know how long it has been on the market.
Urocit-K Potassium Citrate helps to prevent another kidney stone attack. Usually prevents formation of most stones in about 90% of patients. It is indicated for treatment for calcium and uric acid kidney stones.
It works by correcting the pH of the urine and elevates a naturally occurring urinary inhibitor and this helps control formation of new stones.
People with high levels of potassium in their blood due to conditions like: chronic renal failure, uncontrolled diabetes mellitus, acute dehydration, strenuous physical exercise in unconditioned people, adrenal insufficiency and anyone taking a potassium-sparing agent should not take Urocit-K. People with active peptic ulcers should not take this med. Anyone with a condition that impairs potassium excretion should not take this med. Do not take if you also take potassium-sparing diuretics.
Some people may develop gastrointestinal irritation such as abdominal discomfort, vomiting, diarrhea, loose bowels or nausea. Usually taking the med with meals or snacks will avoid these problems.
I do not know how long it has been on the market.
Sunchild45
06-11-2005, 11:05 PM
Thanks so much Daisy!! I plan on doing just that lol. We had a nice time today and will join them tomorrow in Orlando. Have to pack, just wanted to thank you for my b-day wishes. Thanks to both of you for the information. Will let you know what i find out. Thanks again.
bonehead
06-13-2005, 07:53 AM
I would like to clarify a few of the points you made below.....
First, you are correct, that Fosamax and the other bisphosphonates do not build bone. They are antiresorptives. They simply prevent the oseoclasts from resorbing bone. They do this by binding to the active sites of resorption and prevent the osteoclasts from absorbing to much bone.
Actonel and Fosamax return bone turnover levels (ie: bone resorption and formation) to NORMAL premenopausal levels. They DO NOT lead to a build up of dead bone. Bone biopsies (taking a peice of the bone out of the body and then examining it under a microscope or doing micro-CT) after 3, 5, 7, and now 10 years show that people on bisphosphonates have good normal quality bone. If there was a build up of 'dead' bone, then one would expect to see micro fractures in the bone and an increased incidence in fracture in patients taking the drugs. This is NOT the case.
In regards to the T-score of -2.5.....Actually the NOF and other groups already have recomended going down to -2.0....and some even recommend treatment at -1.5 with other risk factors. This is based on the epidemiological data that shows the incidence of fracture and risk of fracture at each T-score cutoff. A 1.0 decrease in T-score means that you have lost approximately 10 to 15% of your bone mass density.
With the cholesterol........those decreases to lower levels are also based on many years of research and many published studies showing that the lower levels in cholesterol result is fewer CV events.
Of course the drug comapnies would like you to take their medicines.....and for some this is the only way to go. Once you have lost the bone and your turnover levels are to high, just taking calcium and vitamin D will not be enough. I almost all of the clinical studies with osteoporosis therapies the CONTROL/PLACEBO groups were ONLY on calcium and vitamin D and they continued to lose bone.
So, how can you avaiod taking these drugs? Some people can't because it is already to late for their bones and they need to take them in order to reduce their risk of having a debilatating and sometimes deadly fracture. The best things you can do is take plenty of milk and vitamin D when you throughout your life.....especially when you are young and certainly when you are in your teens, twenties, and early thirties. This will help you acheive your peak bone mass......Also, get plenty of exercise. Not only will this help your bones but it will help your cholesterol.
Good luck.....
Thanks for your response and good wishes. I have read several times that Actonel and Fosoma do not build bone. I have copied this paragraph from another poster who explains what I have read better than I could have:
"Fosamax and it's sister drugs do not build living bone. It is a poison acid in the same class as soap scum remover. It kills the osteoclasts that normally scrub away old, dead bone cells to make way for the osteoblasts to follow and fill in with new, living bone cells. So, Fosamax allows the dead bone to build up instead of being removed. That looks great on a scan, but after several years, this bone is very weak because it is layer upon layer of dead stuff."
This is why I decided to go against my doctor's advice and wait and see
if I develop osteoporosis, and if I do, maybe a better drug will be available.
It is controversial that these drugs are even effective if a person has osteopenia and does not have osteoporosis yet.
Another interesting item I read is that the bone density measurement for osteoporosis recently was pushed down to 2.5, from higher readings.
This means more people on the drugs, just like they are doing wth cholesterol measurements.
Last year my total cholesterol was 300 and my doctor gave me Lipitor. I did not take it and went to a nutritionist instead. She gave me natural supplements to reduce fats and I started to eat oat bran every morning and I cut out saturated fats and trans fats in my diet. Two weeks ago my total cholesterol was 172!
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
First, you are correct, that Fosamax and the other bisphosphonates do not build bone. They are antiresorptives. They simply prevent the oseoclasts from resorbing bone. They do this by binding to the active sites of resorption and prevent the osteoclasts from absorbing to much bone.
Actonel and Fosamax return bone turnover levels (ie: bone resorption and formation) to NORMAL premenopausal levels. They DO NOT lead to a build up of dead bone. Bone biopsies (taking a peice of the bone out of the body and then examining it under a microscope or doing micro-CT) after 3, 5, 7, and now 10 years show that people on bisphosphonates have good normal quality bone. If there was a build up of 'dead' bone, then one would expect to see micro fractures in the bone and an increased incidence in fracture in patients taking the drugs. This is NOT the case.
In regards to the T-score of -2.5.....Actually the NOF and other groups already have recomended going down to -2.0....and some even recommend treatment at -1.5 with other risk factors. This is based on the epidemiological data that shows the incidence of fracture and risk of fracture at each T-score cutoff. A 1.0 decrease in T-score means that you have lost approximately 10 to 15% of your bone mass density.
With the cholesterol........those decreases to lower levels are also based on many years of research and many published studies showing that the lower levels in cholesterol result is fewer CV events.
Of course the drug comapnies would like you to take their medicines.....and for some this is the only way to go. Once you have lost the bone and your turnover levels are to high, just taking calcium and vitamin D will not be enough. I almost all of the clinical studies with osteoporosis therapies the CONTROL/PLACEBO groups were ONLY on calcium and vitamin D and they continued to lose bone.
So, how can you avaiod taking these drugs? Some people can't because it is already to late for their bones and they need to take them in order to reduce their risk of having a debilatating and sometimes deadly fracture. The best things you can do is take plenty of milk and vitamin D when you throughout your life.....especially when you are young and certainly when you are in your teens, twenties, and early thirties. This will help you acheive your peak bone mass......Also, get plenty of exercise. Not only will this help your bones but it will help your cholesterol.
Good luck.....
Thanks for your response and good wishes. I have read several times that Actonel and Fosoma do not build bone. I have copied this paragraph from another poster who explains what I have read better than I could have:
"Fosamax and it's sister drugs do not build living bone. It is a poison acid in the same class as soap scum remover. It kills the osteoclasts that normally scrub away old, dead bone cells to make way for the osteoblasts to follow and fill in with new, living bone cells. So, Fosamax allows the dead bone to build up instead of being removed. That looks great on a scan, but after several years, this bone is very weak because it is layer upon layer of dead stuff."
This is why I decided to go against my doctor's advice and wait and see
if I develop osteoporosis, and if I do, maybe a better drug will be available.
It is controversial that these drugs are even effective if a person has osteopenia and does not have osteoporosis yet.
Another interesting item I read is that the bone density measurement for osteoporosis recently was pushed down to 2.5, from higher readings.
This means more people on the drugs, just like they are doing wth cholesterol measurements.
Last year my total cholesterol was 300 and my doctor gave me Lipitor. I did not take it and went to a nutritionist instead. She gave me natural supplements to reduce fats and I started to eat oat bran every morning and I cut out saturated fats and trans fats in my diet. Two weeks ago my total cholesterol was 172!
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
peregrine
06-13-2005, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by jacal5
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
jacal,
Would love to know what the "tips" were!
Peregrine
The same nutritionist gave me supplements and tips on dieting for bone health, so let's see if they work, I will keep you posted.
jacal,
Would love to know what the "tips" were!
Peregrine