I am a little bit taken aback by how many people never seem to question the fact that there doesn't appear to be any empirical evidence to back up that ADD/ADHD is so-called "disorder". Here is a condition whose criteria is centered around what is essentially a personality test performed by "professionals" who basically have about four years of school under thier belts. And then people allow themselves or thier children (whose cells are still forming!) to be put on dangerous and addictive psychotropic medications without even the least bit of question (read: SPEED. Which essentially ANYBODY is going to feel better and more focused on. Coffee drinkers raise your hands?).

Does anyone ever wonder why it seems that most of the people and children diagnosed with this "disorder" are artistic/creative or entreprenurial types? Perhaps these "disabled" individuals just don't learn the way other linear-thinking types do. Perhaps it helps that type to be focused differently in order to create. Perhaps the innate ability to multitask is a key function in the careers of those individuals who ended up finding a career to match thier particular type.

There are many many ways that one can find ways of functioning in the world that work for them, through experimentation. Not all things work for everyone, and that goes for education, too. Try different things. If a dry, intellectual approach doesn't work, try learning/teaching through the body, or the emotion. Try colors. Try visuals.

Has anyone ever read Thom Hartmann's books? Before making assumptions about "ADD", you really should.

Katie

Has anyone ever read Thom Formann's books? Before making assumptions about "ADD", you really should.
Katie

Katie, Could you supply some specific book titles (they are legal on this website, just no webaddresses)? I have searched online for various spellings of Thom Formann (including Tom, Thomas, Forman) and can find no information about such an author who might be writing about something other than gardens or something like that. I would be interested in learning more.

I agree with much of what you say, that ADD can be thought of as a personality type just like any other, but I DID find it a tremendous relief to have a label for why I have never fit in with "normal" ways of doing things. It's all well and good to say that all types of people should be accomodated in classrooms and jobs according to their personality types, but I don't think it's ever going to happen (little ol' pessimist me! :) ). As an adult I'm struggling to figure out how to function as a totally disorganized but occasionally very creative person. I've found "Scattered" by Gabor Mate to be helpful.

--Rheanna

Pakemuumama,

Absolutely, without question, ADD is a personality type. So are schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc. Very few people in the population are without some symptoms of some disorder.

It's a matter of degree.

My 14yo has ADHD to the extent that he cannot function in a classroom without assistance. Without the stigma of the label, he would not be able to receive the services that enable his learning. Without help, he would still be in elementary school. That's not the worst of it. He is so hyper - without medication - that other kids cannot stand to be around him. He has been shunned all of his life. That's not the worst of it.

Neither his inability to learn nor his social isolation were enough to convince us to try medication. Trust me, it was a heartwrenching decision. It was one that we wrestled with for years.

It wasn't until he started calling himself "weird" and saying that "it would be better to be dead" that we decided we were doing him an injustice by not trying every avenue available to us. At that point, all that was left to try was medication. We had already done counseling, behavior mod, dietary modification, supplements, tutoring, a multi-modal approach to education, etc, etc, etc.

We did not put him on medication *without question* nor do we continue him on medication *without question*. It is a decision that we wrestle with daily. However, for the first time in his life, he has kids that he can call "friends". He no longer sits alone in the school cafeteria. He no longer talks about wishing he could "just die".

Perhaps it is a personality disorder on my part, but I cannot help but feel defensive when YOU assume that WE have made assumptions about his disorder and put him on medication without thought. You have absolutely no idea what we've been through.

index.html nailed it!

pakemuumama, you make me feel like a wounded horse. Just put a bullet in him! He has no use for us now.

I dropped out of high school because I could not concentrate. I have troubles with everyday activities because of ADD. When I take my medicine it makes things easier!

What about people who need glasses to see? Should we just say “oh they were born with this, so they just need to adapt!” Benjamin Franklin was just a crock when he invented bifocals! We don't need to FIX eyesight! NOOOOO! Just stick them in their own continent and let them stumble around like buffoons!

Same thing with people with ADD! Give them the state of Texas to live in! We won’t help them concentrate! We will just stick them with a bunch of people just like them, so nobody will get upset that their life just never seems to work out because everybody has the same problem!

Ignorance is bliss!

Rheanna~I made a little boo-boo. It's Thom Hartmann, not Thom Formann.

One point of clarity--I was in no way suggesting that jobs should be modified to personality types. That would be silly. This is the real world. We adapt. And so, many of us (I fit the DSM IV but there is no way I will ever let someone diagnose me and pigeonhole me into a psychological disorder classification, for many reasons) find avenues of making a living that not only work for us, but that we excel at to a degree that no linear thinker could ever hope to achieve. I DO believe, however, that schools and teachers need to try harder, or differently to relate to ALL human beings and not only a select segment that they themselves relate to. But even within this limited system, discovery is possible.

As for labels, I am quite happy with Bohemian, thank you!

To everyone else, this is in no way an attack on you and your particular struggles. This is an attack on the laziness of so-called professionals and the absolute inability for linear thinkers to understand the peculiarities of non-linear thinkers. And perhaps then, my anger is misguided, because it is simply sheer ignorance on thier part.

I especially sympathize with you and your child's struggle, index.html. I can identify. Though my struggle was not identical to your son's (I am a so-called inattentive type rather than hyperactive), I was an outcast too, and then I gradually taught myself (and am still learning) how to relate to other people.

What I am saying is that there are so many other things to try. I thank GOD that there was no such classification of "ADD" when I was a child, or I may never have gone through the struggles I did to find out who I am and what works for me, and how to relate. And I am still discovering. Don't give up!

Katie

That's definitely one perspective, Katie, and it may well be a valid one. In psychology, a disorder is a mental condition that affects your life in a negative way. Basically, until it messes up your life, it's just a benign personality trait.

I have two college degrees and can't keep a job at a bagel shop. That's when it's time for meds. Until I figure out what kind of job suits me, I have to live.

I am so sorry for your struggles, Blue. I never could keep a straight job, myself, either. At the time I felt like a horrible failure, but looking back on it now, I realize it was just too boring. Luckily for me, I had an entreprneurial father who taught me the ropes of discovering an alternative type of career, which turned out to be freelance work as a decorative painter, in which I was always in a different location and doing something different practically every day. Things got even better when I started working on my own jobs more and less for other people. Then I discovered the film industry (set painting), and that was a great thing to add to what I do because not only do I work in a different location all the time but I also get to have a high degree of stimulation, many times doing several different tasks simultaneously. I can't tell you what freedom it has been to finally stop trying to be like other "normal" people and just learn to be comfortable being myself!

There are other things I am still figuring out though. Paying bills on time is one I am trying to work with right now. The way I am doing it obviously doesn't work. Getting to places on time is always a learning process and takes lots of practice. I try to make a habit of leaving 1/2 hour early and that way, if I am "late", I am still on time. I did figure out how to find a bit of structure in my day by trying to keep a list I've made the night before and giving different items on the list high, medium and low priorities. However, it takes a lot of practice and dioscipline to keep it going. I also figured out that date books as they are structured usually do not work for me because I need to see what is happening in the weeks previous and ahead in order to have a more wholistic view of my schedule, so I got a cheap-o date book that has the whole month on one page. When working on absorbing tasks, I've heard it helps to set a timer 15 minutes before it is time to do the next task. I am going to have to try that too.

As for the fogginess, I went to a nutritionist at my doctor's recommendation when I was having wheeziness, and found out through elimination diet testing that I had a gluten allergy. This cleared the fog for the most part. My clarity of thought has been significantly improved through meditation and exercises working with different types of attention as part of a metaphysical study I am involved with. This part of my search changed my life, and through this I am discovering more and more over the years about who I am and am not, and am learning something about different types of relaxation, which is a significant help in many ways.

I would never suggest going off of meds if they enable you to keep food on your table, for the moment! Use them until you need them, but one day, you may find a way to live in which you don't need to medicate yourself. I truly wish that for you! Remember that somehow, you managed to get yourself two college degrees! I couldn't even do that--I was an art school dropout. I have thought about going back to school (academic, rather. I am already going back for fine arts at the moment) and quite honestly the idea of it strikes terror through my heart. So bravo to you!

Katie

Katie,

Thanks for clarifying the author's name -- I frequently pull words from the jumble in my brain thinking (hoping) that they're the right ones and getting blank stares from people who are not hearing the ones that are in my head. Sigh. But my friends are patient with me anyway.

I looked up Thom Hartmann, and the reference to hunters and gatherers in the description sounds like a book I had for a while and then "lent" out to another ADDer which means that I haven't seen it in years. I remember thinking how nice it was that this guy kept trying to put both men AND women into the hunter-gatherer categories, but I was really frustrated when he described the hunters as ONLY men -- not a single woman went out on that hunt with the guys. So, I was left hanging patiently (NOT an ADD trait!) around the campfire waiting for my man to come home with dinner so I could do all the BORING tasks of cleaning the carcass (do you know how many cuts I have on my fingers from using a knife in the kitchen???), putting body parts into piles (ORGANIZING???), tending to the fire (very dangerous for someone who can't pay attention for long!) and cooking dinner. My thought at the time is that he had some woman in his life who had tried to make him into a "new-age sensitive guy", so he thought he would try real hard and remember that woman make up at least half of the world's population and probably half of the ADD population, but he forgot to go the rest of the way and complete his theory by mentioning how prehistoric women became ADDers by being descended from hunters. Very frustrating.

I'm glad you found a job that suits you. I used to have a couple of jobs like that in the computer industry many years ago, but here in Germany I'm job-free and floundering without an external structure.

--Rheanna

Katie, I don't disagree with you at all. It's all just one big journey of self discovery for everybody... I think it's great that you've learned to get around the obstacles.

Maybe, given time, I will learn more about ADD (if that's really what I have) and be able to do the same.

Till then, I might try the meds.... but if they mess with my personality, I'm gonna drop 'em, and go get a PAYING job giving psychological advice to people (that's funny if you are familiar with my habit of posting on Healthboards).

Heh...

:cool:

Wow - great thread, great issue. I went on meds for ADD about 3 months ago, after years of struggling with the issue.

On the one hand - your state of mind, your personality, your brain - this is what makes you 'you'. I am good at some things, I am bad at others. I have a full spectrum of moods that help guide my actions. Depressed? Something needs to change. Happy? I guess I'm doing something right. The notion of medicating ADD doesn't fit in this philosophy - why screw with the path of life that is being presented to me? If school and and office jobs don't suit me, and in fact present a gigantic struggle to me, shouldn't I simply take the cue and look elsewhere? Some other field where I may excel, and be happier?

But then fast forward to the reality of modern day living. Evolution. The notion of someone with ADD being an explorer or an adventurer may not be so valuable today. Maybe I want a family and a wife and kids, and I want to be able to support them and I want to hold down a job for more than a year. Maybe I want to pursue an interest that requires additional education. Education, academia, computer work, organizational skills, people skills, time management skills - these are things that will help me reach my goals.

I think, in the context of today's society, ADD IS a disorder, is in fact a disease that can be cured. That kernel of information that is typically blurry to me, all of a sudden is totally clear. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't tried meds, but it's true. The dreams I was unable to pursue - because I couldn't hack the education behind it, because I couldn't make the money to support it - All of a sudden they are achievable.

My notion of meds is this: it's worth a try. Aside from desecrating a principle you may hold, there aren't many other downsides. Don't like it? Go off'em.

This is totally ignoring another train of thought: namely that ADD is a chemical disorder in your brain. In 'Driven to Distraction', the analogy is constantly repeated of medicating ADD to getting glasses for bad eyesight. Sure, you could work around your bad vision, struggle with it and try to improve it; or you could simply buy some glasses.

Give the glasses a shot! ;)

PS - Katie: have you considered the possibility that you don't have ADD?

"But then fast forward to the reality of modern day living. Evolution. The notion of someone with ADD being an explorer or an adventurer may not be so valuable today. Maybe I want a family and a wife and kids, and I want to be able to support them and I want to hold down a job for more than a year. Maybe I want to pursue an interest that requires additional education. Education, academia, computer work, organizational skills, people skills, time management skills - these are things that will help me reach my goals"

________________________________________ ______________________



What is an explorer/adventurer in today's world? An entrepreneur. An inventor. Freelancer. Creator. Many "ADD'ers" own thier own businesses, and happily. Let the boring tasks such as organizing, scheduling, etc. be handled by your secretary. Have her/him let you know when your appointments are approaching. That's what they exist for. Not everyone is made to do all tasks!

A freind of mine started his business from nothing, and I mean zippo (he also fits the DSM V criteria), as a real estate broker. He had to borrow from friends as he had gotten fired from his job. Now he hires three people who handle his day to day drek while he goes out and 'hunts'. He is extremely successful and dynamic, and very good at what he does.

Another buddy of mine is a computer genius and has started several companies, one of which turned into a million dollar venture. His mind is excellent, and he has a very holistic way of thinking.

I think many "ADDers" are excellent at startups. Too bored to continue the business? Many of these "ADDers" just sell it and start another.

The other striking thing about these two is thier capacity to let thier right brain functioning go on trips, eventually circling back around to make it possible to turn thier ideas into a concrete form. Of course, some of these never come to pass, but that's the way it is. Both are fantastic inventors, as am I.

The only thing holding most of these people back is that they get stuck in thinking that they need to fit into a mold they are not suited for, or they do not trust thier intuitions, thier abilities and thier imaginations. They don't trust who they are.

________________________________________ ___________________


"My notion of meds is this: it's worth a try. Aside from desecrating a principle you may hold, there aren't many other downsides. Don't like it? Go off'em."


________________________________________ ____________________


Well, there are many reasons NOT to do this, IMO. One of which is that you will have a record for the rest of your life if you are categorized as a class whatever (can't remember the # at the mo) drug user, which could possibly come back to bite you in the rear one day. Another reason is that these drugs can be very dangerous and some are quite addictive. I can dig up some info on specifics, but look, if you really want to know you will do some research yourself. (Check out Thom Hartmann's message board. Lots of useful info on this type of thing crops up there.)

Have I ever considered that I am not ADD? Certainly. (In fact I don't even think the disorder exists!) But then I fit into the DSM V classification, so a professional might not think so. I found out about this so-called disorder from a psychologist I was seeing a few years back, who thought I fit too.

Pakemuumama,

Absolutely, without question, ADD is a personality type. So are schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc. Very few people in the population are without some symptoms of some disorder.

It's a matter of degree.

My 14yo has ADHD to the extent that he cannot function in a classroom without assistance. Without the stigma of the label, he would not be able to receive the services that enable his learning. ithout help, he would still be in elementary school. That's not the worst of it. He is so hyper - without medication - that other kids cannot stand to be around him. He has been shunned all of his life. That's not the worst of it.

Neither his inability to learn nor his social isolation were enough to convince us to try medication. Trust me, it was a heartwrenching decision. It was one that we wrestled with for years.

It wasn't until he started calling himself "weird" and saying that "it would be better to be dead" that we decided we were doing him an injustice by not trying every avenue available to us. At that point, all that was left to try was medication. We had already done counseling, behavior mod, dietary modification, supplements, tutoring, a multi-modal approach to education, etc, etc, etc.

We did not put him on medication *without question* nor do we continue him on medication *without question*. It is a decision that we wrestle with daily. However, for the first time in his life, he has kids that he can call "friends". He no longer sits alone in the school cafeteria. He no longer talks about wishing he could "just die".

Perhaps it is a personality disorder on my part, but I cannot help but feel defensive when YOU assume that WE have made assumptions about his disorder and put him on medication without thought. You have absolutely no idea what we've been through.

You do realize you are contradicting what most of us have been told by numerous doctors and professionals, that ADD is not a personality disorder but a biological illness almost exactly like diabetes and cancer. ;)

Glad your son is doing well, however! :wave:

I am a little bit taken aback by how many people never seem to question the fact that there doesn't appear to be any empirical evidence to back up that ADD/ADHD is so-called "disorder". Here is a condition whose criteria is centered around what is essentially a personality test performed by "professionals" who basically have about four years of school under thier belts. And then people allow themselves or thier children (whose cells are still forming!) to be put on dangerous and addictive psychotropic medications without even the least bit of question (read: SPEED. Which essentially ANYBODY is going to feel better and more focused on. Coffee drinkers raise your hands?).

Does anyone ever wonder why it seems that most of the people and children diagnosed with this "disorder" are artistic/creative or entreprenurial types? Perhaps these "disabled" individuals just don't learn the way other linear-thinking types do. Perhaps it helps that type to be focused differently in order to create. Perhaps the innate ability to multitask is a key function in the careers of those individuals who ended up finding a career to match thier particular type.

There are many many ways that one can find ways of functioning in the world that work for them, through experimentation. Not all things work for everyone, and that goes for education, too. Try different things. If a dry, intellectual approach doesn't work, try learning/teaching through the body, or the emotion. Try colors. Try visuals.

Has anyone ever read Thom Hartmann's books? Before making assumptions about "ADD", you really should.

Katie

THere's another theory that ADDers' are actually just visual-spatial learners. I think there is alot more to this all than what people are lead to believe by the psychiatric community.

index.html nailed it!

pakemuumama, you make me feel like a wounded horse. Just put a bullet in him! He has no use for us now.

I dropped out of high school because I could not concentrate. I have troubles with everyday activities because of ADD. When I take my medicine it makes things easier!

What about people who need glasses to see? Should we just say “oh they were born with this, so they just need to adapt!” Benjamin Franklin was just a crock when he invented bifocals! We don't need to FIX eyesight! NOOOOO! Just stick them in their own continent and let them stumble around like buffoons!

Same thing with people with ADD! Give them the state of Texas to live in! We won’t help them concentrate! We will just stick them with a bunch of people just like them, so nobody will get upset that their life just never seems to work out because everybody has the same problem!

Ignorance is bliss!

Usually there is a physical manifestation of most conditions, unlike ADD which doesn't seem to have any. Usually, for example as you gave, people who need glasses have an eyeball too short(farsighted) or too long(nearsighted), or have eye muscle control problems such as amblyopia, or lazy eye.

I'm thinking eye problems are not as based in theory like ADD is....

Usually there is a physical manifestation of most conditions, unlike ADD which doesn't seem to have any....

No physical manifestations??? ROTFL!!! :bouncing:

I'd *love* for you to spend 24 hours with my son, Jennita. You'd see enough physical manifestations to last you a lifetime! LOL!

Seriously, Jennita, you know as well as I do that ADHD brains look different on scans than do "normal" brains. How can you not call that a physical manifestation?

No physical manifestations??? ROTFL!!! :bouncing:

I'd *love* for you to spend 24 hours with my son, Jennita. You'd see enough physical manifestations to last you a lifetime! LOL!

Seriously, Jennita, you know as well as I do that ADHD brains look different on scans than do "normal" brains. How can you not call that a physical manifestation?

THose "differences" can not be concluded as actual brain damages or "disease", not one study has concluded this in a medical sense. The belief is lack of dopamine, aka an imbalance of this, yet there is not one test to prove a lack of dopamine or one actual measure of how much is normal dopamine in a human brain.

And what also gets to me, is they do not give any child they consider giving a toxic drug like amphetamine to a brain scan....my nephew was diagnoised ADHD and given Adderall without any brain scan, thus no diagnostic test to prove he had any imbalance or lack of dopamine.

Jennita, I know theories drive you beserk. Here are the FACTS: On MRI scan, ADHD children show 3-4 percent smaller brain volumes in all regions—the frontal lobes, temporal gray matter, caudate nucleus, and cerebellum - than do non-ADHD children.
Medicated ADHD children have no differences in their white matter volume from that of non-ADHD children. In my mind, this is a pretty clear physical manifestation. You can read more about this here (because it is a ".gov" website, it is okay for me to post): http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm

Because stimulants reverse these differences in brain volume and because stimulants are BELIEVED to work by increasing dopamine, it is HYPOTHESIZED that dopamine is the neurotransmitter primarily involved.

Here is a FACT. MRI scans, PET scans, and SPECT scans are not at this time considered to be adequate diagnostic tools so it would have been pointless to put your nephew through it. We all know that there are no tests, at this time, to measure any of the brain's neurotransmitters.

Laps until he drops? I trust you are exaggerating. Otherwise, his mom may well be accused of child abuse.

Jennita, I know theories drive you beserk. Here are the FACTS: On MRI scan, ADHD children show 3-4 percent smaller brain volumes in all regions—the frontal lobes, temporal gray matter, caudate nucleus, and cerebellum - than do non-ADHD children.
Medicated ADHD children have no differences in their white matter volume from that of non-ADHD children. In my mind, this is a pretty clear physical manifestation. You can read more about this here (because it is a ".gov" website, it is okay for me to post): http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm

Because stimulants reverse these differences in brain volume and because stimulants are BELIEVED to work by increasing dopamine, it is HYPOTHESIZED that dopamine is the neurotransmitter primarily involved.

Here is a FACT. MRI scans, PET scans, and SPECT scans are not at this time considered to be adequate diagnostic tools so it would have been pointless to put your nephew through it. We all know that there are no tests, at this time, to measure any of the brain's neurotransmitters.

Laps until he drops? I trust you are exaggerating. Otherwise, his mom may well be accused of child abuse.

Well, the size of the brain and whether or not they are truthful about non-medicated vs. medicated is still questionable. A kid who's taken the drug, then given a drug vacation to participate in the study would be a bit like a cheat, although it could be said that kid was not medicated at time of study. Also to me, brain size isn't a disease, it's a difference.

It is well known, for example, female brains are smaller than male, along with other differences like smaller bone structure.....does smaller mean inferior/diseased then??

But that's not the real point, at least not to me. It's giving amphetamines to "cure" or "treat" this biologically, when still, not one biological test. Why isn't the wonderful scan that "proves" ADD not adequate, I do wonder.

Theoretically, amphetamines should enlarge those tiny brains if in fact small brains is what the problem is and the appparent cure is amphetamine. If so, then a child with years growing on amphetamine therapy should see a much larger brain in scan as an adult, thus no adult ADD would exist for them. Right? Yet they continue their meds well into adulthood. Yes, I'm using a theory here, but why not, apparentely it's allowed....

So actually, although I'm skeptical about the existance of ADD, you misunderstand it, I'm not saying it doesn't exist but rather it doesn't exist as a biological "disease". It can definately be a different, more difficult type of brain to deal with when it comes to learning ability within the system that our society has set. There are other theories, that ADDers' are nothing more than Visual-spatial learners, that if given the right learning tools they can excel.

But even above all that theory, my main concern is the use of amphetamine drugs for it and how that will effect the growth, mental health and physical health of kids/adults today and in the future. I just don't buy into it. That's my choice, and many others but everyone needs to do what they feel is best so I'm not knocking anyone who medicates but rather try to make them aware of the possible pitfalls, now or in the future.

And you know what? It isn't just me who feel this way, it's people like me and also surprisingly alot of doctors, PHD's, etc.....although they are the minority. Needless to say, the rest of psychiatry don't like them much. They are sort of like the unpopular kids in school, nobody likes them and what they say because it ruins the fun.....

Leo and Cohen's review, entitled "Broken Brains or Flawed Studies? A Critical Review of ADHD Neuroimaging Research," was published in the Journal of Mind and Behavior and looked at 33 of the most recent studies using computerized topography, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), single photon emission computerized topography or positron emission topography on ADHD-diagnosed subjects. The researchers were stunned: According to Leo, "Dr. Cohen and I pulled the studies that had been done on brain imaging and ADHD and what jumped out at us was that every single study used medicated kids, subjects who had been on stimulants or some other drugs that we don't know because that information wasn't made part of the study."

That sort of thing is really interesting to me, that we are not always being told the truth. I do not believe the entire medical industry is dishonest, nor even all of psychiatry or drug companies, but psychiatry and drug co's that do produce alot of revenue from mental "disorders" do have alot to lose and much to gain when one out of two people get diagnoised, compared to medical doctors who are dealing with other life-threatening disease which seems there are still way too much of and certainly keep doctors overworked and hospitals full, unfortunately.

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You do realize you are contradicting what most of us have been told by numerous doctors and professionals, that ADD is not a personality disorder but a biological illness almost exactly like diabetes and cancer...

Hmm, yes, I see that I haven't made myself very clear. :eek:

I believe that ADD is a personality type, a personality disorder, AND an illness. It's all of those. I made these statements:

Absolutely, without question, ADD is a personality type. So are schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc...It's a matter of degree.
Surely, you didn't think that I was questioning whether schizophrenia, etc were illnesses??? Heavens, no! :nono: My point was that certain personality types carried to extreme (remember I said "it's a matter of degree") are disorders/illnesses because they "impair the normal physiological functioning of an organism" (one definition of illness).

This is MY theory. :yawn: Remember the bell curve we learned in school? I see most personality types/disorders as a function of the bell curve. Regarding any particular trait, the vast majority fall under the curve. As you go toward the extremes of the curve, you get "quirky" individuals. Carry that trait to the last fraction of a percent of the curve and you have an individual who is unable to function - we call that illness. This is true whether we know the cause or not and whether or not we can measure it by a blood test. Like schizophrenia. Like ADHD.

I see most (not all) "biological illnesses" the same way. :yawn: Take diabetes. The vast majority of individuals have blood glucoses in a certain range. There is no one set number that is "correct", it is a range of normal that applies to most people. Run a slightly higher glucose and you are "high normal", a little higher and you probably have diabetes that can be diet-controlled. The last part of the bell curve applies individuals with blood glucoses so high that we label them as "diabetic" and they are insulin dependent. Again, TO ME, it is a matter of degree. We all have sugar in our blood; when it's extreme, it is an illness.

That's how I see it. I believe ADHD IS a personality type. I also believe it is an illness.

Hmm, yes, I see that I haven't made myself very clear. :eek:

I believe that ADD is a personality type, a personality disorder, AND an illness. It's all of those. I made these statements:


Surely, you didn't think that I was questioning whether schizophrenia, etc were illnesses??? Heavens, no! :nono: My point was that certain personality types carried to extreme (remember I said "it's a matter of degree") are disorders/illnesses because they "impair the normal physiological functioning of an organism" (one definition of illness).

This is MY theory. :yawn: Remember the bell curve we learned in school? I see most personality types/disorders as a function of the bell curve. Regarding any particular trait, the vast majority fall under the curve. As you go toward the extremes of the curve, you get "quirky" individuals. Carry that trait to the last fraction of a percent of the curve and you have an individual who is unable to function - we call that illness. This is true whether we know the cause or not and whether or not we can measure it by a blood test. Like schizophrenia. Like ADHD.

I see most (not all) "biological illnesses" the same way. :yawn: Take diabetes. The vast majority of individuals have blood glucoses in a certain range. There is no one set number that is "correct", it is a range of normal that applies to most people. Run a slightly higher glucose and you are "high normal", a little higher and you probably have diabetes that can be diet-controlled. The last part of the bell curve applies individuals with blood glucoses so high that we label them as "diabetic" and they are insulin dependent. Again, TO ME, it is a matter of degree. We all have sugar in our blood; when it's extreme, it is an illness.

That's how I see it. I believe ADHD IS a personality type. I also believe it is an illness.

Ok, then I'd have to say there should be distinct difference or separation between the theoretical mental illness and biological illness, but psychiatry does not make that distinction. You cannot claim a biological defect without showing it in a measurable test. Intil that day, psychiatry needs to not only stop claiming the biology as fact instead of what it really is, theory, but also stop claiming toxic drugs will fix peoples brains because there is no proof of that as of yet, the only sure thing is that they know is some drugs have certain effects on ALL brains, for example, sedatives will calm/dull the brain whereas stimulants can wake the brain....this works in all brains....of course, it's more practical to use such a thing when there seems to be a need or reason.

But the drugs effect all brains, not just the bi-polar, or the schizophrenic, etc. What I'm trying to say is, if I give you a tranquilizer, you will be very calm, if I give you more, you'd be out cold.

So psychiatry uses this drug knowledge to take care of certain things, which proves drugs can effect the brain in desirable ways, not that the person has some defect in their brain. That has yet to be proved.

THere is a neurologist named Dr. Fred Baughmann who asserts ADD has no neurological markers, thus not a brain disease at all. Apparentely most brain related disease has notable, consistant neurological symptoms, such as Alzheimers, autism, and parkinsons disease, which ironically is a dopamine problem. Why aren't more ADD kids, with the lack of dopamine and all, having parkinson's tremors??

Well, intil they come up with something more plausible, I'll go ahead and agree with the poster who thinks it's a personality I suppose, although I also believe other factors such as food, allergies, certain medical conditions, living situations, etc. might play part.

I just want to clarify--I was not leaning toward the personality disorder side of the personality/biological equation by any means. I was saying that "ADD" is a mislabeling of a visual-spatial learner (or global, or right-brain thinker, or however you want to label it) personality type by linear thinkers who simply cannot understand the ways in which we function.

And yet they want to reap the benefits of enjoying our art, music, architecture, film and other creative ventures while remaining in a vaccuum. But then, people have been trying to rid themselves of bohemians for centuries. Our global thinking styles are just too threatening. This way is one of the most insidious ways yet invented. Don't fence me in, buddy.

It would be wise for the non-"add" individual to take a step back in terms of drawing conclusions on individuals who have the experience of this way of functioning, for they can not, no matter how much experience they have observing or living with or "schooling" those individuals, ever know the experience of existing in that functioning, unless they ARE one of those individuals. As one of those individuals I can tell you first hand what my experience has been, what kind of experiments I have made and forms of perception I have encountered along the way.

Do I sound bitter? You bet. All my life I have been fed the notion that there is something wrong with me, and I have only gained my freedom from that societal prison a number of years ago. Does that mean that the global thinking segment of the population should exist in a vaccuum? No, every person should find his place and function in this multi-faceted world and learn to function and tolerate and perhaps even learn to appreciate and relate to one another. Believe it or not, there IS a place for every type of thinker.

Katie

This debate confuses me. I'm not really sure that there IS a difference between biological and psychological when it comes to ADD. Psychology is the study of the way the brain works, but the brain is an actual physical organ in the body, so it HAS to be biological, right? Regardless of whether or not scientists have documented it or seen it on a scan or measured it in a lab. There are a lot of things that have not been "proven" yet, but that doesn't mean it doesn't yet exist. Was the world flat until it was "proven" to be round?

But what I'm saying is, what's the difference??? Every thought that crosses your mind can theoretically be traced to an electrical impulse somewhere in the brain. A thought may be intangible, but the brain is very real, and you can't argue that thoughts come from the brain. (Well I guess you could. Thom Hartmann suggests that some thoughts and feeling may originate in other organs, because every organ in the body contains a few neuro-whatever cells. But that is a tangent I didn't mean to take.)

I just don't know whether or not it is physical or psychological, but to me, it doesn't matter. All I know is that it ruined my childhood, and a good part of my young adulthood. If it was "just" a personality quirk, I don't think it would have had such a negative impact on my life. Every book I've ever read says that medication will never "cure" ADD...actually there IS no cure for ADD. But it does help, and that HAS been proven over and over again. Results don't lie. I don't take meds to speed me up or make me "better." I take them so that I can join the land of the living, and interact with the people I love, and have FUN doing things I like to do (I never knew I actually LIKED to do anything before now!) It helps me remember to call my friend back so she won't think I'm a jerk. It helps me remember to pay the bills so my things don't get reposessed. It helps me remember to FEED THE BABY for God's sake! The government doesn't just give you a wink and say, "Ahh, well, you just have a quirky personality." No, they will take your child away from you and possibly put you in jail.

Whether or not it is a disease or a disorder or whatever, some people do need medication for it, and there is no way you can tell me any different.

(As for Thom Hartman...his words sound so great and so believable, but his ideas are kind of like the Atkins Diet. It is flawless in theory and works great for a little while, but when it comes to LIVING it for the rest of your life, it just doesn't pan out. I could not do any of the exercises he mentioned. My mind just couldn't focus...LOL! The title is misleading too because there is no such thing as "Healing" ADD. You can only manage it. Well, that's just my opinion. But there it is.)

I just want to clarify--I was not leaning toward the personality disorder side of the personality/biological equation by any means. I was saying that "ADD" is a mislabeling of a visual-spatial learner (or global, or right-brain thinker, or however you want to label it) personality type by linear thinkers who simply cannot understand the ways in which we function.

And yet they want to reap the benefits of enjoying our art, music, architecture, film and other creative ventures while remaining in a vaccuum. But then, people have been trying to rid themselves of bohemians for centuries. Our global thinking styles are just too threatening. This way is one of the most insidious ways yet invented. Don't fence me in, buddy.

It would be wise for the non-"add" individual to take a step back in terms of drawing conclusions on individuals who have the experience of this way of functioning, for they can not, no matter how much experience they have observing or living with or "schooling" those individuals, ever know the experience of existing in that functioning, unless they ARE one of those individuals. As one of those individuals I can tell you first hand what my experience has been, what kind of experiments I have made and forms of perception I have encountered along the way.

Do I sound bitter? You bet. All my life I have been fed the notion that there is something wrong with me, and I have only gained my freedom from that societal prison a number of years ago. Does that mean that the global thinking segment of the population should exist in a vaccuum? No, every person should find his place and function in this multi-faceted world and learn to function and tolerate and perhaps even learn to appreciate and relate to one another. Believe it or not, there IS a place for every type of thinker.

Katie

I've read about Visual spatual learners on the internet and have suggested this to many people on these boards as a plausible alternative notion to the ADD "mental disorder" label psychiatry has tried to lay on everybody who does not fit the mold they've set up....yeah, most of these people are very creative and needed in our society...so, why try to drug such creativity out of a person in order to make things "easier"....we need their creative contributions in our society.... at least I think so anyway!

Katie, it's clear to me that there isn't and never was anything wrong with you. :)

Regardless of whether or not scientists have documented it or seen it on a scan or measured it in a lab. There are a lot of things that have not been "proven" yet, but that doesn't mean it doesn't yet exist. Was the world flat until it was "proven" to be round?
:wave: Amy, I agree with what you've said and I especially want to continue with your above thought. Jennita has often said the following :rolleyes: that I disagree strongly with:
You cannot claim a biological defect without showing it in a measurable test.
At one time, there were no "biological tests" for any disease. Did the diseases not exist before the development of tests? Of course they did! Glucose monitering for diabetics, scans and biopsies for cancer, cardiac cath's for heart disease - they are ALL of relatively recent origin. But any intelligent person knows that hordes of humanity died from these diseases before we had tests for them. AND, it's absurd to think that we have reached a place in medicine where we have developed all the tests we are going to! Obviously, there will be tests for things in the future that we don't have tests for now.

Those stomach aches your daughter was having, Jennita? Sorry, not biological because her doctor didn't prove their existence using a biological test. Your headache? Even if it was a migraine, sorry, not biological for the same reason. Cramps? Well, you get the picture.;)

In reality, there ARE tests showing the existence of ADHD. TOVA and Connor's tests are both useful. And, brain scanning has clearly shown that ADHD children have 3-4 percent smaller brain volumes than do non-ADHD children. Sounds pretty definitive to me! Anyone who would like to read about it on the National Institute for Mental Health's website can find it here:http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm. And yet for some reason, the conspirarcy theorists (you know, the docs with an axe to grind because they couldn't make it with main-stream medical practices) insist that we have been "duped".:mad: I'm curious, Jennita. Do you also believe that the scans showing schizophrenics' brains to be different also prove nothing? Is schizophrenia a "biological" illness in your way of thinking?

:wave: Amy, I agree with what you've said and I especially want to continue with your above thought. Jennita has often said the following :rolleyes: that I disagree strongly with:

At one time, there were no "biological tests" for any disease. Did the diseases not exist before the development of tests? Of course they did! Glucose monitering for diabetics, scans and biopsies for cancer, cardiac cath's for heart disease - they are ALL of relatively recent origin. But any intelligent person knows that hordes of humanity died from these diseases before we had tests for them. AND, it's absurd to think that we have reached a place in medicine where we have developed all the tests we are going to! Obviously, there will be tests for things in the future that we don't have tests for now.

Those stomach aches your daughter was having, Jennita? Sorry, not biological because her doctor didn't prove their existence using a biological test. Your headache? Even if it was a migraine, sorry, not biological for the same reason. Cramps? Well, you get the picture.;)

In reality, there ARE tests showing the existence of ADHD. TOVA and Connor's tests are both useful. And, brain scanning has clearly shown that ADHD children have 3-4 percent smaller brain volumes than do non-ADHD children. Sounds pretty definitive to me! Anyone who would like to read about it on the National Institute for Mental Health's website can find it here:http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm. And yet for some reason, the conspirarcy theorists (you know, the docs with an axe to grind because they couldn't make it with main-stream medical practices) insist that we have been "duped".:mad: I'm curious, Jennita. Do you also believe that the scans showing schizophrenics' brains to be different also prove nothing? Is schizophrenia a "biological" illness in your way of thinking?

Ok, let me re-post this information I found in regards to those brain scans, I posted it a few pages back I guess you missed it:

["Leo and Cohen's review, entitled "Broken Brains or Flawed Studies? A Critical Review of ADHD Neuroimaging Research," was published in the Journal of Mind and Behavior and looked at 33 of the most recent studies using computerized topography, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), single photon emission computerized topography or positron emission topography on ADHD-diagnosed subjects. The researchers were stunned: According to Leo, "Dr. Cohen and I pulled the studies that had been done on brain imaging and ADHD and what jumped out at us was that every single study used medicated kids, subjects who had been on stimulants or some other drugs that we don't know because that information wasn't made part of the study." ]

That sort of thing is really interesting to me, that we are not always being told the truth. I do not believe the entire medical industry is dishonest, nor even all of psychiatry or drug companies, but psychiatry and drug co's that do produce alot of revenue from mental "disorders" do have alot to lose and much to gain when one out of two people get diagnoised, compared to medical doctors who are dealing with other life-threatening disease which seems there are still way too much of and certainly keep doctors overworked and hospitals full, unfortunately.

Now, when seeing these differences in even schizophrenia, do they take anything like past drugs into account? I do, most definately, believe drugs and alcohol can cause brain damage you can see on a scan. Think schizophrenics' didn't take any drugs before the scans? Nope, most had years on neuroleptic drugs that studies have shown can damage the nervous system and brain. Sure, that can show up in a scan alright, I don't doubt that for a minute. So I am skeptical of the scans since they are usually taken after years of drug damage.

It's funny how scans are never used up front, before diagnosis, before drug therapy.

Of course, I'm not blaming all visible brain damage on drugs, alcohol can cause it, injury can cause it, neurological disease can, birth defects, etc. but like I said, if there is indeed a way to show visible brain damage on a scan, scans should be used as a required test/first line of diagnosis before diagnosing a schizophrenic, bi-polar, ADD, etc.....but it isn't, that's the clue of unreliability.

Then, there is the issue of the drugs they use to treat. They are, to put it in a nutshell, street drugs, repackaged and sometimes even revamped but nevertheless, street drugs. Uppers and downers. With all the health/mind risks that can accumulate over time. But I will say this, they are great at drugging the mind into compliance, at least while they still work, before tolerance. So I'm not saying the drugs don't work.

Actually, as far as a headache, scans and studies have shown nerve damage, even something like pain has been proven in examination of damaged nerve tissue in research, so both are biologically provable.

My daughter's condition was digestive and there was no need to take any additional tests other than the blood test...digestive problems are pretty commonplace and not life-threatening...they are usually dietary in nature so how silly it would be to do extensive research testing on my daughter's tummy ache!

I bet it can be done, but who's going to do it or spend the money? That's like doing testing and research on why a splinter hurts, well, it does punture the nerves in the skin which could be proved biologicaly but who would go through all that when the answer is obvious anyway?

And actually, the research for my daughter's conditon has been done and proved biologically by the university that discovered it.

Actually, they did discover in past research the nerves in certain areas of the brain, body or skin are damaged when people feel pain....this is biological proof, yet alot of people still think pain is not a biologically proven event either, but surprisingly it is.

Ok, let me re-post this information I found in regards to those brain scans, I posted it a few pages back I guess you missed it

No, Jennita, I didn't miss it. I'm just not sure that I buy into Leo and Cohen's work. Apparently the National Institute for Mental Health doesn't either. They are still posting the results of these scans as valid information on their website.

You know you can find "proof" of just about anything on the web. There are those with "proof" that the holocaust never happened and there are those with "proof" that the lunar landing never happened. You can't believe everything you read (even if it's written by someone who calls themself "Dr").

No, Jennita, I didn't miss it. I'm just not sure that I buy into Leo and Cohen's work. Apparently the National Institute for Mental Health doesn't either. They are still posting the results of these scans as valid information on their website.


Well, after all the recent scandel of drug co's hiding of negative clinical studies with antidepressants, drug co. illegal activities of pushing dangerous off-label uses and all the questionable "disorders" written up in the DSM manuals for psychiatry, etc. etc., I"m not so sure I value the opinions of any mental health institution is regards to what's valid or not valid in the biological sense.

And obviously, people like Leo and Cohen, Dr. Peter Breggin and Dr. Fred Baughmann, Joesph Glenmullin, Dr. David Healy, and god I could go on forever with the names but they are all quite a thorn in the profitable business of biological treatment of mood disorders.

So quite naturally, they will be scoffed off as not knowing anything, although they have the same medical degrees and research studies available to substantiate their claims.

Why, even Dr. David Healy, a university head of psychiatry and who has written of the dangers of Prozac is a psychiatrist and does sometimes prescribe drugs to his patients...he is not as heavy anti-drug as Breggin, but just his one speech at his university that shed a bad light on Prozac (Eli Lilly contributed $$ for university research) lead to a withdrawal of a job offered to him from another university.

He sued and won, however. But it does show how anyone who objects to the status quo in the mental health industry is risking labeling as a quack or black sheep of his very own profession.

It does remind me of the mafia, better stay loyal to the business or get wacked, quack style.

So, I find it very hard to put faith into what any body or group in psychiatry or mental health says.

And like I said before, if scans are so accurate in determining without a doubt a biological cause, so ok then. lets use them for diagnostic purpose, just like the x-rays and blood tests used for other biological illness. Otherwise, it has no value IMHO.

But we choose who we believe, and who we don't, individually. But it seems the more stories/newstories/personal accounts/evidence/court decisions I hear of the adverse health and mental effects of these drugs, the more sense those scorned doctors make.

After all, it wasn't long ago that anyone, professional or not, who claimed drug co's hide and fudged clinical trials or pushed their drugs by making false claims to doctors would be considered a kook... of conspriacy theory. But now it's all out there in the mainstream news and in court cases and guilty verdicts have been passed in a court of law against drug co's for these very things.

So I guess we can at this point agree to disagree. I hope things go well for you but just in case down the line it doesn't I hope you will at least consider another path.

I just want to clarify--I was not leaning toward the personality disorder side of the personality/biological equation by any means. I was saying that "ADD" is a mislabeling of a visual-spatial learner (or global, or right-brain thinker, or however you want to label it) personality type by linear thinkers who simply cannot understand the ways in which we function.

And yet they want to reap the benefits of enjoying our art, music, architecture, film and other creative ventures while remaining in a vaccuum. But then, people have been trying to rid themselves of bohemians for centuries. Our global thinking styles are just too threatening. This way is one of the most insidious ways yet invented. Don't fence me in, buddy.

It would be wise for the non-"add" individual to take a step back in terms of drawing conclusions on individuals who have the experience of this way of functioning, for they can not, no matter how much experience they have observing or living with or "schooling" those individuals, ever know the experience of existing in that functioning, unless they ARE one of those individuals. As one of those individuals I can tell you first hand what my experience has been, what kind of experiments I have made and forms of perception I have encountered along the way.

Do I sound bitter? You bet. All my life I have been fed the notion that there is something wrong with me, and I have only gained my freedom from that societal prison a number of years ago. Does that mean that the global thinking segment of the population should exist in a vaccuum? No, every person should find his place and function in this multi-faceted world and learn to function and tolerate and perhaps even learn to appreciate and relate to one another. Believe it or not, there IS a place for every type of thinker.

Katie

You raise some very valid points, Katie. As a result of what you've said, I'll be more careful how I present all of this to my son. On the other, label or not, my son knows that he is different from other kids his age. The label he chooses for himself is "weird". I tend to think that he is better off with a medical name for his differences. I could very well be wrong.

I've read about Visual spatual learners on the internet and have suggested this to many people on these boards as a plausible alternative notion to the ADD "mental disorder" label psychiatry has tried to lay on everybody who does not fit the mold they've set up....yeah, most of these people are very creative and needed in our society...so, why try to drug such creativity out of a person in order to make things "easier"....we need their creative contributions in our society.... at least I think so anyway!

Katie, it's clear to me that there isn't and never was anything wrong with you.


Thanks Jennita!


Index, have you ever tried enrolling your son in art, filmmaking, music or theater lessons or camp? He might not find himself to be so 'weird' if he were among other creative types. I LIVED in the art department in school, and montessori school was perfect for me with it's emphasis on poetry and creativity. Luckily, my father understood and encouraged this side of me, and even took me to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on Sundays, and to the theater, musicals, light opera and ballet wherever he could.

Index, have you ever tried enrolling your son in art, filmmaking, music or theater lessons or camp? He might not find himself to be so 'weird' if he were among other creative types.
He currently has no interest whatsoever in any of those. He played the trombone for a couple of years and has done extra-curricular art. He's too self-conscious to enjoy drama. Hmmm, filmmaking.....perhaps....as long as he was doing the filming and not the acting. Wonder where I could find something like that.

I hope things go well for you but just in case down the line it doesn't I hope you will at least consider another path.
Jennita, please go back and reread my first post in this thread. If there's another path that I've missed, I'd truly like to know.

I believe wholeheartedly that ADHD is a BIOLOGICAL disorder (as well as a personality variance). I DON'T believe that medication is the only answer. Medicating my son was a last resort. He was 13 before we started ADD medication. I wouldn't go so far as to say that things are "going well" for him. Socially, meds have helped some. He doesn't act quite as "weird" as he did before. Academically, he's struggling. He's in danger of flunking out of international school. I've spent the weekend crying my heart out, partially from teacher conferences and partially from another problem.

His heart rate is somewhat elevated. Both the shrink and the pediatrician aren't concerned, but with all the recent news, I am (he's not on Adderall, but IS taking a long-acting stimulant along with Strattera). So, AMA, I'm going to wean his dosage slowly, hoping that I can find a point where he still derives some benefit but with a more normal heart rate. In doing that, things may deteriorate further academically and socially, but what else can I do????

My son is an extreme case. At the age of 14, without medication, he cannot pay attention long enough to follow sequential directions like "Put away your book, get out your workbook and turn to page 20" or "Take your school shoes to your room, get your tennis shoes and get in the car. We're going to a movie." He can't do it.

That's why it's a bit of a reach for me to accept that he's simply a visual-spatial learner or that he's just the creative type. His problems are more far reaching than that.

Despite my arguments FOR the medical model, I AM open to other suggestions.

Index, I am not sure where you can find filmmaking classes except perhaps at a local college continuing ed program (which are open to everyone). You could also buy your son a video camera and let him loose.

I haven't looked into it thoroughly myself yet, but have you ever looked into Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP)? I have heard good things, especially in terms of relating to sequentials like those you've mentioned (that kind of sequential grouping is a linear thought process. We think of all these things at once, globally, without any particular order involved, which is why we get paralyzed/confused and therefore can't make decisions easily and procrastinate).

I was turned on to a site just recently (on Hartmann's site, I was asking a math related question) detailing NLP teaching techniques related to "ADD" type thinkers. Wish I could post a link, but it's against the rules.

If you want me to detail what techniques exactly I have found that help me, I can post them.

He currently has no interest whatsoever in any of those. He played the trombone for a couple of years and has done extra-curricular art. He's too self-conscious to enjoy drama. Hmmm, filmmaking.....perhaps....as long as he was doing the filming and not the acting. Wonder where I could find something like that.


Jennita, please go back and reread my first post in this thread. If there's another path that I've missed, I'd truly like to know.

I believe wholeheartedly that ADHD is a BIOLOGICAL disorder (as well as a personality variance). I DON'T believe that medication is the only answer. Medicating my son was a last resort. He was 13 before we started ADD medication. I wouldn't go so far as to say that things are "going well" for him. Socially, meds have helped some. He doesn't act quite as "weird" as he did before. Academically, he's struggling. He's in danger of flunking out of international school. I've spent the weekend crying my heart out, partially from teacher conferences and partially from another problem.

His heart rate is somewhat elevated. Both the shrink and the pediatrician aren't concerned, but with all the recent news, I am (he's not on Adderall, but IS taking a long-acting stimulant along with Strattera). So, AMA, I'm going to wean his dosage slowly, hoping that I can find a point where he still derives some benefit but with a more normal heart rate. In doing that, things may deteriorate further academically and socially, but what else can I do????

My son is an extreme case. At the age of 14, without medication, he cannot pay attention long enough to follow sequential directions like "Put away your book, get out your workbook and turn to page 20" or "Take your school shoes to your room, get your tennis shoes and get in the car. We're going to a movie." He can't do it.

That's why it's a bit of a reach for me to accept that he's simply a visual-spatial learner or that he's just the creative type. His problems are more far reaching than that.

Despite my arguments FOR the medical model, I AM open to other suggestions.

I meant another path if someday the drugs don't work or cause health problems. Well, it sounds like you are definately putting his health first here with the reduction of the meds. Who knows, could be less meds may work anyway without effecting his heart, lets hope.

The sad part of all of this is, even when drugs work, most times tolerance develops to the effects of the drugs, so even higher doses may some day not work, and with higher doses comes much higher risks. Adding another med is also a course, apparentely your doctor took this course, but again tolerance can develop and also more drugs=more complications/risks.

I feel bad for you that your son is having such a severe problem with learning. This world is so competitive and kids do need to keep up or be left out, I wish I could solve this problem for you, I know you must suffer watching him struggle.

I wish I knew more...I know alot about drugs and their effects/problems.. however, I don't know much about what else really, really works for these kids, the "alternative" plans. I've heard some people say that nutrition and supplements(like fish oil and B-vitamins) do the trick; others swear by other means of learning....my nephew has had some occassional tutoring and sports they say helped him.

But I know some of these things won't work for some kids.

I hope the information that pakemuumama has given you may help your son, it sounds like she knows alot more about the alternatives than I do.

Sorry for all the fuss, I am sometimes too passionate about the dangers of the drugs they give to what seems like way too many kids and adults alike.

But in my passion it looks like I forgot that I'm dealing with a mother here who is completely torn up by her son's pain and is willing to do anything that will help him... for that I have overlooked I am truly sorry and hope you will not feel ill towards me and my comments.

I wish you the best in solving this problem and at the same time protecting his health and well being. :angel:

I am truly sorry and hope you will not feel ill towards me and my comments...

No worries, Jennita.

I'm still feeling pretty blue about my son's situation, but I am sure I will be back to showing you the errors in your thinking soon... ;)

No worries, Jennita.

I'm still feeling pretty blue about my son's situation, but I am sure I will be back to showing you the errors in your thinking soon... ;)

Ahhhhaaa, yes, we will meet again for battle ;) :blob_fire
But seriously, it's amazing how a person can pick up certain emotions even through cyberspace, for all our heated debating, I suddenly felt that despair from you....I really, really do hope your son will get better, I hope you find an answer and that he will grow up a healthy and happy person. :)

I really, really do hope your son will get better, I hope you find an answer and that he will grow up a healthy and happy person. :)

Thank you for your kind words. :angel:

We can learn from each other. Maybe now you see that many of us here are giving our children meds as a last resort. We have tried - and are trying - everything else we can think of. And many of us aren't doing it because we want "A" students. Some of us just want our kids to pass from one grade to the next.

I've also learned alot. It came as quite a surprise to me that there are parents who get prescriptions for stimulants just because they happened to mention to the doctor that little Johnny was hyper. Or worse, because one teacher complained he was hyper. I thought we had all tried countless other avenues first. Silly me! :eek:

What about people who need glasses to see? Should we just say “oh they were born with this, so they just need to adapt!” Benjamin Franklin was just a crock when he invented bifocals! We don't need to FIX eyesight! NOOOOO! Just stick them in their own continent and let them stumble around like buffoons!

Same thing with people with ADD! Give them the state of Texas to live in! We won’t help them concentrate! We will just stick them with a bunch of people just like them, so nobody will get upset that their life just never seems to work out because everybody has the same problem!

Ignorance is bliss!

Amen to that!

So Glad You Asked, It Is Not Only A Reasonable Question, But Has Now Just Started To Hit The Biways.The Idea That Suggests That Add Is Not A Disorder At All But More Of A Different Brain Orientation. I Think This May Be True For Certain People While Others May Have Similar Symptoms And Various Other Problems. The Symptoms Of Add Can Be Similar In Lots Of People While The Causes Can Range From Brain Trama, Brain Chemistry, Or Genetics. There Truly Is Lots More Work To Be Done On This Subject, And It Is Presently Being Discussed That Add May Not Be A Disorder At All. I Think In The Future We Will Begin To Classify And Identify People Into Specific Catagories, Such As, The Genuis Types With The Fast Thinking Minds, The Trauma Types Who May Have Brain Damage For Various Reasons And Truly May Not Be Able To Concentrate Not Because Their Thoughts Are Moving To Fast But For Some Other Reason. Just Because Someone Can't Concentrate Does Not Mean He Has Add, Or Maybe He Does And The Genuis Types Who Can Think So Fast (like Your Brain Saying Feed Me I'm Hungry Can't Wait Must Move On), Are Really Just People Who Think And Function Differently From Others. Although We Are Still Learning, It Is Clear That There Is Something Going On In The Brain No Matter What The Original Cause, Which Makes It Clear That It IS Much More Than Personality, But May Have Physiological Dimensions.

Ditto, Double Ditto, Triple Ditto on index.html's post.

If that doesn't work, try my brain for a day and you'll have all the empirical data you want - plus some.

When someone does everything in their power^3 and still can't concentrate, that is a disorder, not a personality type. My personality type is extroverted and geeky. My disorder is ADD.

addprogrammer

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So Glad You Asked, It Is Not Only A Reasonable Question, But Has Now Just Started To Hit The Biways.The Idea That Suggests That Add Is Not A Disorder At All But More Of A Different Brain Orientation. I Think This May Be True For Certain People While Others May Have Similar Symptoms And Various Other Problems. The Symptoms Of Add Can Be Similar In Lots Of People While The Causes Can Range From Brain Trama, Brain Chemistry, Or Genetics. There Truly Is Lots More Work To Be Done On This Subject, And It Is Presently Being Discussed That Add May Not Be A Disorder At All. I Think In The Future We Will Begin To Classify And Identify People Into Specific Catagories, Such As, The Genuis Types With The Fast Thinking Minds, The Trauma Types Who May Have Brain Damage For Various Reasons And Truly May Not Be Able To Concentrate Not Because Their Thoughts Are Moving To Fast But For Some Other Reason. Just Because Someone Can't Concentrate Does Not Mean He Has Add, Or Maybe He Does And The Genuis Types Who Can Think So Fast (like Your Brain Saying Feed Me I'm Hungry Can't Wait Must Move On), Are Really Just People Who Think And Function Differently From Others. Although We Are Still Learning, It Is Clear That There Is Something Going On In The Brain No Matter What The Original Cause, Which Makes It Clear That It IS Much More Than Personality, But May Have Physiological Dimensions.

I believe this too, that difference does not equal disorder or illness....it takes different ingrediants to bake a cake, not just one and certainly drugs that can create dependancy, addiction, tolerance and withdrawals should not be considered the only choice in dealing with such differences nor should psychiatry be allowed to label such differences as mental illness.

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Wow, this was a GREAT thread. Excellent arguments on both sides. I can see that there are some highly intelligent folks around here!

I do not have ADHD myself, but I am looking into the possibility that my 4 year old son does. He currently has a dx of mood disorder NOS/anxiety/ODD. We started him this week on Trileptal, an anticonvulsant med, used off-label to treat mood disorder/bipolar. If you had told me 2 years ago that I would have made this decision, I would have told you you were nuts. But when your 4 year old son goes into violent rages and tries to hurt anyone/anything in his path, and threatens his teacher that he's going to get a knife and stab her in the heart, well, your outlook tends to change a bit. To medicate or not was the hardest decision I've ever faced, but I had tried everything else and nothing was working. I hope I've made the right choice, and don't end up later regretting it.

I have a question for those of you with ADHD. What were you like as a young child? Did you have rage attacks and violent behavior? His rage attacks seem to result from frustration and being told no. I'm doing my own research by asking adults with ADHD/Bipolar/Asperger's, etc what they were like as children, since these illnesses can present differently at different ages.

Thanks for any input you can give,
Jen

Wow, this was a GREAT thread. Excellent arguments on both sides. I can see that there are some highly intelligent folks around here!

I do not have ADHD myself, but I am looking into the possibility that my 4 year old son does. He currently has a dx of mood disorder NOS/anxiety/ODD. We started him this week on Trileptal, an anticonvulsant med, used off-label to treat mood disorder/bipolar. If you had told me 2 years ago that I would have made this decision, I would have told you you were nuts. But when your 4 year old son goes into violent rages and tries to hurt anyone/anything in his path, and threatens his teacher that he's going to get a knife and stab her in the heart, well, your outlook tends to change a bit. To medicate or not was the hardest decision I've ever faced, but I had tried everything else and nothing was working. I hope I've made the right choice, and don't end up later regretting it.

I have a question for those of you with ADHD. What were you like as a young child? Did you have rage attacks and violent behavior? His rage attacks seem to result from frustration and being told no. I'm doing my own research by asking adults with ADHD/Bipolar/Asperger's, etc what they were like as children, since these illnesses can present differently at different ages.

Thanks for any input you can give,
Jen

My nephew ADHD diagnoised never had rage but Adderall did make him more aggressive/definant when he was on it. He's on nothing now.

We had a violent type neighboor kid like that who wasn't ADHD so I'm thinking he outgrew it or maybe when he was able to override his mothers' very strict diet techniques(she was hypoglycemic and decided the whole family had to measure food and no sugar whatsoever) when he turned into a teen and was able to get ahold of different foods, that his increase in food and some sugar did make him feel better or less violent, because he is fine now.

I completely agree that ADD is not only a personality, bu also an illness. I am a very creative person and I am very proud of the things that make me me, but when going to a university where you are expected to READ and PAY ATTENTION, in order to good grades, life becomes very difficult. In college, teachers do not have the extra time it takes to teach a student with such learning problems. It is virtually impossible for me to get past the first paragraph within an hour if there are no pictures, diagrams, or anything exciting to keep me interested.
Like I said before, I am very happy that I am the creative, unique person that I am, but my chances at a solid career with people that are patient with my concentration problems, is very unlikely, or difficult at the least, so I would definitely say that it is also an illness.

:eek: My first son is 35 now, yes, a long time ago when he was born. I was young and while I was pregnant I read many books on being pregnant and child-rearing. I was 4 mos pregnant before I found out I was. I had strange symptons but when I went to the doctor I showed negative; they didn't have this new technology in medicine them. I didn't drink alcohol or do any drugs or take any medications which is good. When I found out, I even stopped drinking coffee and had one cup of hot tea ever afternoon while at work. During my pregnancy there was lots of stress in my life, however.

When he was born, I had an infection and they didn't bring him to me for a couple of days. When they did bring him to me to feed him by bottle. During that time obs discouraged breast feeding. Well, I couldn't get him to feed with the bottle. I was so nervous and the nurse had to help me learn how to feed him. After going home my life was still very stressful. During that time it was the in thing to use a certain psycology with children. You talk to them a certain way. Never any harsh punishment whick was fine with my because I was totally against spanking or talking harshly.

Well, when he was a baby, he cried constantly.I didn't know why; pediatricians said it was colic. Well, I found out the definition of hyperactivity.
I was always worn out. He misbehaved every place we went. Going to the grocery store was a nightmare. Many, many time I had to just leave the basket of groceries in the middle of the store and go home. After trying a few day-care facilities and either I didn't like it or it was a huge chore to get him in the day-care. One very good Christian day-care, the staff would call me at work and tell me that they were concerned about him because he didn't associate with other children but wanted to talk to the adults and if that wasn't bad enought, he told the most outragous stories to them and they knew they couldn't be true and, of course, they werent. I finally found an elderly lady that was so wonderful and she kept him in her home. Once a week her daughter took her out for errands and then to a nice cafeteria for lunch. His behavior was terrible. At the cafeteria, he got out of his chair and ran all over the cafeteria and they were trying to catch him as well as other customer in the cafeteria. She finally stopped the weekly outing because she couldn't handle him. I felt so bad. She loved him and he was good at her house but he constantly wanted to visit the residents living in the duplex house. They were crazy about him. When he was 4 I knew he was sick and took him to the doctor immediately because I always knew he was sick before the doctor did. The next day he had a very high fever and I took him to the doctor and he was admitted to the hospital. He had a collapsed lung. They kept him for several weeks and I stayed there constantly except going home to clean up and get more clothes. While the was there, he had an IV hooked to him but that didn't stop him. He jumped out of the bed pulling out the IV and ran up and down the hall stopping at the nurses desk to visit with the nurses and doctors. I was exhausted and scared and frustrated and also pregnant with my second son but didn't know. They first said they thought he had cystic fibrosis and I was devastated. Then they said it wasn't but just didn't know. After quitting a new job, I had to call and tell them I wouldn't be back. I told the doctors, either give me an accurate, or let us go home. They did but said they just didn't know what caused the problem. We went home with a "breathing machine" which he had to have treatment several time a day. I took him to the library every other day and quickly checked out stacks of books and read to him constantly. The peditrician only mention medication but I had never heard of that them. He never took medication but the hyperactivity never stopped and when he was 7 and my younger son was 2. Again, I quite a very good job and had just gotten a promotion, but I couldn't stand my kids being in day-care but I was single and no child-support, I had to work. So I got a job at the day-care center. I carried my 2 year-old on my hip while trying to control a room-full of wild kids until they told me I had to put him his age group. When it was time for my 7 year-old had to get on the bus to go to school he had a huge tantrum every time. The director and staff would have to carry him out kicking and screaming to the bus. At that time he started hitting my and kicking me every time I tried to dicipline him. I was still using the same mild-psychology of taling at certain way to him and never spanking. One of the staff's husband was in medical school and came to the center to "view" him. I was so embarrased and felt like such a failure as a parent and I had tried to do every thing right. The med student recommend therapy. We went and she suggested "tough love" althought it wasn't called that then. It was just too hard for me to do. As he got older it just got harder. In school, they told me he was capable to make straight "A's" but he spent too much talking to other students in class and disrupting the class. His behaviour just got much much worse when he reached early teen. He became violent with other as well as with me. I had a very good job and beginning to miss a lot of work because I was so upset and depressed. Many times he would get angry and started banging his head on walls and cars. He destroyed his room at our apartment. Again, I sought therapy. What a waste. He was so smart that when we were there out-smarted everyone and acted as though nothing was wrong at all. He was hurting my younger son and threating me. He made good grades in school without ever studying. Finally, he graduated and immediately joined the Army. I thought this would be very good for him but I NEVER anticipated a war. The Gulf War. He had just finished boot camp and volunteered to go overseas. I thought my life would be a lot less stressful but with him over there I finally had a "breakdown" and ended up in the hospital. The war ended and he came home and lived with me. I was so grateful and my prayers were answered and he came home alive and fine.He was like a new person. So disciplined and grown-up. Well, his problem weren't over. He moved out and got had a job and his own apartment. He was like the perfect gentlement but things kept happing. I had to bail him of of jail because he fired a gun in the courtyard of his apartment but acted like it was no big deal. There were still many incidents. Fighting a lot. Those temper tantrums! He just seemed to have so much anger and yet was also the perfect gentlement.

He married in his late twenties which is something I tried to force into his head since a very young age. He married a wonderful woman and they have two beautiful daughters and they are "perfect" parents. He is so sensitive and loving. But there were still some problems that he didn't discuss with me very much. He was having depression at times. He finally saw a doctor and was given an anti-depressant which he said it did help. Just not that long ago his wife told me he was bi-polar. My mother was bi-polar as am I and my brother.
I just recently read an article on this Web Site about bi-polar in children. I had never heard of that but things started to finally make sense. I had never heard of bi-polar in children. I have saved the article that I read and at some time give it to my son because this can be heredity as in my case. My mother had terrible episodes and I never understand why she behaved that way, it was just known to all of us to never do anything to upset her. It was always like "walking on eggs" all the time. Also my younger son is bi-polar but his acted out in a different way and he managed to keep everying going on with him from me. They are both successful and very good men but things will never be just right.

Cat_be_known

I think is is a major component of personality. My therapist POV is that its been around since the begining of time but under modern and/or western socialization expectations & constraints, it has become a hurdle for most thus an unfavorable trait to have undiagnosed/untreated. My therapist (who specializes in the field) said that in caveman/woman days, the AD/HD'er most likely was the watchkeeper of the clan, able to sustain long periods of patrols, keen senses, highly alert, crisp memory served them well. Conformity and pressures of today have become the catalyst to ADD arriving on the map.
Does this make any sense? Just another one of my insomnia nites!