grapes
03-08-2005, 10:01 PM
Hi. I am trying to decide whether to see a neuromuscular dentist in my area. All the other Boston dentists have failed, even the top $500 an hour "tmj dentist" (in certain ways, he was the worst!). None of the dentists I've seen were neuromuscular, so I feel that the nm approach is my last shot at a non-perpetually agonizing existence. (I also explored Functional Orthodontics...and met with a top-knotch doc who was very nice and very honest--he told me I've had too much prosthetic work to get ortho at this stage).
I went on the lvi site, and selected only the dentists who completed "full mouth reconstruction" This narrowed the search to 4 nm dentists within 100 miles of Boston. I eliminated one, because he talked fast, seemed impatient, and didn't listen.
I interviewed the 2nd nm dentist today. Here are the plusses: he spent 2.5 hours talking with me and examining my muscles and jaw, and he didn't charge me a cent. He answered all my questions clearly and honestly. He had a calm, non-defensive, and straightforward personality. He's taken all the lvi courses through tmd I. Here's the big minus: He only completed his training 2 years ago. He's only been treating tmj cases with nm for 2 years. He's treated about 25 people. Half of these cases are successfully finished. He defines success as no tmj pain or destructive bruxing. The other half of these cases are still in progress. None of these people had been through as much prior dental failure as I have (2 1/2 failed full-mouth reconstructions).
This dentist told me that the lvi program is only 8 years old (and they only had a skeleton curriculum back then). So, there really aren't any long-term lvi dentists. I see this as a drawback.
Tomorrow, I will be interviewing another nm dentist who I've spoken to on the phone. This dentist seems straightforward, too, patient and kindly (I liked his
phone personality, and the email he sent me). This dentist has a few more years nm experience (about 5 years, I think), and told me that nm dentistry is 20 years old even though lvi is only 8 years old. Anyway, this dentist has NOT completed all the occlusion and tmd coursework at lvi, but he's studied tmj at bioresearch and at the allentown pain center.
Dentists #1 and #2 use different brands of tens machines (#1 uses the lvi tens, and #2 uses a different brand.)
Dentist #3 doesn't return my calls or emails which either means he's busy (because he's good/popular), or because he's stingy with his time (I don't want another dentist like my $500 an hour dentist. I need a dentist who'll take the time). I can't get an appointment with him for another 2 weeks. He's taken all the lvi courses that Dentist #1 took, plus an lvi ortho class.
Anyway, my mind is racing anxiously with this decision, and is made worse by the fact that I have a failing root canal tooth, two bad temp crowns that are coming loose, etc., so I have to find a dentist SOON, but don't want to continue seeing the $500 an hour anthole who's bilked me out of enough $$$ already, and is not worth it.
The other option would be to see Dr. Cooper in NYC. I know Cooper is a superstar, but I don't know how expensive/fabulous/arrogant he is (I know nothing about him). I just can't afford another $500 an hour dentist who gets bogged down with the occlusal adjustments as much as any friendly neighborhood dentist. (Except, my friendly neighborhood dentist wouldn't turn on me after he failed and tell me to see a shrink and take xanax for the rest of my life).
I went on the lvi site, and selected only the dentists who completed "full mouth reconstruction" This narrowed the search to 4 nm dentists within 100 miles of Boston. I eliminated one, because he talked fast, seemed impatient, and didn't listen.
I interviewed the 2nd nm dentist today. Here are the plusses: he spent 2.5 hours talking with me and examining my muscles and jaw, and he didn't charge me a cent. He answered all my questions clearly and honestly. He had a calm, non-defensive, and straightforward personality. He's taken all the lvi courses through tmd I. Here's the big minus: He only completed his training 2 years ago. He's only been treating tmj cases with nm for 2 years. He's treated about 25 people. Half of these cases are successfully finished. He defines success as no tmj pain or destructive bruxing. The other half of these cases are still in progress. None of these people had been through as much prior dental failure as I have (2 1/2 failed full-mouth reconstructions).
This dentist told me that the lvi program is only 8 years old (and they only had a skeleton curriculum back then). So, there really aren't any long-term lvi dentists. I see this as a drawback.
Tomorrow, I will be interviewing another nm dentist who I've spoken to on the phone. This dentist seems straightforward, too, patient and kindly (I liked his
phone personality, and the email he sent me). This dentist has a few more years nm experience (about 5 years, I think), and told me that nm dentistry is 20 years old even though lvi is only 8 years old. Anyway, this dentist has NOT completed all the occlusion and tmd coursework at lvi, but he's studied tmj at bioresearch and at the allentown pain center.
Dentists #1 and #2 use different brands of tens machines (#1 uses the lvi tens, and #2 uses a different brand.)
Dentist #3 doesn't return my calls or emails which either means he's busy (because he's good/popular), or because he's stingy with his time (I don't want another dentist like my $500 an hour dentist. I need a dentist who'll take the time). I can't get an appointment with him for another 2 weeks. He's taken all the lvi courses that Dentist #1 took, plus an lvi ortho class.
Anyway, my mind is racing anxiously with this decision, and is made worse by the fact that I have a failing root canal tooth, two bad temp crowns that are coming loose, etc., so I have to find a dentist SOON, but don't want to continue seeing the $500 an hour anthole who's bilked me out of enough $$$ already, and is not worth it.
The other option would be to see Dr. Cooper in NYC. I know Cooper is a superstar, but I don't know how expensive/fabulous/arrogant he is (I know nothing about him). I just can't afford another $500 an hour dentist who gets bogged down with the occlusal adjustments as much as any friendly neighborhood dentist. (Except, my friendly neighborhood dentist wouldn't turn on me after he failed and tell me to see a shrink and take xanax for the rest of my life).
Sponsor
Freddog
03-12-2005, 12:16 PM
is it seems you are rather intelligent on what you allow to happen to yourself my only feedback i can offer to you is dont put a price limit on your quest for health and wellbeing i would be willing to go deep into debt in exchange for feeling better
rubato
03-12-2005, 01:07 PM
Hi Grapes. It sounds like you are really doing your research here. If it were me (and it's not), I would definitely get rid of the dentist you have now. If anyone said that to me, they'd be gone. :) The one who only has 2 years experience sounds good. He seems to have had success in the limited number of patients he's treated. His newness might be a good thing. Maybe because he hasn't seen so much disappointment with this disorder, as many long time dentists have, he will try harder. Who knows? It's all a guessing game until it's either resolved or they give up. The key is to find someone who's well educated and knows what they're doing. This could be someone who's been doing it for 25 years, or someone who's relatively new. And, to find someone who's style is suited to yours. My doctor works very well with me. He's overly busy and rushed, but if I make him sit down and listen to me, he will. And, he's somewhat conservative, but not afraid to be agressive when all else fails. The dentist with 5 years may end up being great too. Hopefully, all your interviews will go so well, you'll have trouble choosing between all the amazing dentists! ;)
Tandy
Tandy
GoodThings
03-12-2005, 05:06 PM
The other option would be to see Dr. Cooper in NYC. I know Cooper is a superstar, but I don't know how expensive/fabulous/arrogant he is (I know nothing about him).
Hello,
If this is the same Barry C. Cooper in NYC, i would suggest you not go to him. He is somebody that you can not trust. Why not give Dr. Terrance Spahl in MN a call?
take care,
GT
Hello,
If this is the same Barry C. Cooper in NYC, i would suggest you not go to him. He is somebody that you can not trust. Why not give Dr. Terrance Spahl in MN a call?
take care,
GT
grapes
03-12-2005, 08:03 PM
Wow! I didn't think anyone was ever going to respond to my thread, then all of a sudden I have 4 responses. Thank you so much! GoodThings, thank you especially for your tip on Dr. C.
Anyway, here's the update:
The day after my 2.5 hour interview with NM Dentist #2, I had a 2.5 hour interview with NM Dentist #3. I learned that Dentists #2 and #3 had discussed me, and what they would do to treat me in the intervening hours between the two appointments. Dentist #3 wasn't as good a listener as Dentist #2. He talked rapidly, his mind seemed to race (vs. #2 was calmer). Dentist #3 did give me tons of interesting input, however. He said that the NM dentists email each other and Clayton Chan all the time to compare notes and ask questions. It's good, I think that they're not operating out of a vaccuum. Dentist #3 sometimes uses other splints, like anterior deprogrammers for nighttime, versus Dentist #2 just uses the LVI splint. He also seemed more well-versed in other pain therapies. I got the sense that Dentist #3 was more eager to treat, had more time to treat, and had more tools to treat. He was slightly older, slightly more experienced, etc. So, I booked with Dentist #3. BUT THEN....
The Mass Board of Dentistry called. I had inquired about the 3 NM dentists. Both Dentist #2 and Dentist #3 have been dentists for about 24 years. In that time, Dentist #2 had 2 complaints, but Dentist #3 had 7 complaints, plus an "advisory letter" issued by the Board. I cancelled with Dentist #3.
I also called the Board of Dentistry in CA and NV (inquiring about Chan) and in NH (inquiring about NM Dentist #4). All three of those Boards told me that the public is NOT entitled to know if any complaints have been filed against dentists in their states. They only tell you if those dentists ever had their license suspended. Versus, in Massachusetts they tell you how many complaints, the nature of those complaints (ie incompetence, unprofessional conduct, etc.) and how the complaint was resolved (usually dismissed by the Board). In NV, the bureaucrat I spoke to actually scolded me for inquiring about Chan, as if I was doing something unethical by asking if there had been any complaints. This was eye-opening.
I also found out that the $500 an hour dentist I have been seeing has had 6 complaints, mostly about $$$ (overcharging, breech of contract/dispute was financial, misrepresentation, two charges of unprofessional conduct, and one charge of inferior and improper work...all dismissed). Very enlightening! I have very little respect for most dentists, given that they have ruined my life (starting with orthodontics at age 13), so I tend to think that at least SOME of the complaints have plenty of merit, even though the complaints were dismissed by the Board (the Board of Mediocre Dentists, probably).
NH NM Dentist #4 finally spoke with me over the phone. He sounded rushed and not at all eager to take my case. He didn't sound like he had more experience than the other 3 NM dentists. He did admit to having some tmj cases with "unstable bites" that he hasn't been able to resolve. He told me my bite is probably very unstable, and that if he were me, he'd only go to Dr. Chan at this point.
So, I called Chan's office, and a woman asked me a bunch of questions, told me I'd be a difficult case (even for Chan), told me the cost (he's right up there with my $500 an hour dentist)...I'd be spending well over $100K, plus travel, lodging, time away from work, etc. She asked me several times if I had the money. I said not THAT much. She asked me what was my religion (I found that intrusive) and she suggested that I pray (also inappropriate).
After all of this burst of effort ending in a quagmire, I collapsed.
Then, I emailed Dentist #2 and was straight with him about the things I learned, and why he seemed to be my best option. I figured I should tell him what happened, because he and Dentist #3 have discussed my case, and seem to be in the same study-circle. And, I cancelled with Dentist #3 very abruptly after hearing from the Board. Dentist #2 said he was willing to take my case. He said I should call Monday morning if I want to proceed (he could make time for me on Thursday.)
So, now I'm trying to get calm and decide if Dentist #2 is the way to go. If I DON'T go with Dentist #2, then I see that I will have to travel FAR AWAY to find a dentist fully trained in NM, or a more functional (as opposed to conventional, which I've already tried) approach. I love the sound of that Dr. Miller (I think he's in Seattle) who has HAD iatrogenic tmj and sounds truly informed, sincere and for real. But, I just don't have that kind of money. In the past 6 years, I have spent almost $200K on this problem, and as things stand, I would have been better off just flushing that money down the toilet.
Or, maybe I SHOULD go into massive debt, max out my credit cards, etc. But what if it doesn't work? Already I have a 15 year old car that's falling apart, I lost my house, I'm pretty much slumming it as it is. Every cent goes down the dental hole.
You know, when I hear some people complain that so-and-so dentist is EXPENSIVE because they've paid $2000 or $15,000, or whatever, I feel like they're in the MINOR league in terms of what I've spent. Am I the biggest $$$ sucker on this board?
Anyway, here's the update:
The day after my 2.5 hour interview with NM Dentist #2, I had a 2.5 hour interview with NM Dentist #3. I learned that Dentists #2 and #3 had discussed me, and what they would do to treat me in the intervening hours between the two appointments. Dentist #3 wasn't as good a listener as Dentist #2. He talked rapidly, his mind seemed to race (vs. #2 was calmer). Dentist #3 did give me tons of interesting input, however. He said that the NM dentists email each other and Clayton Chan all the time to compare notes and ask questions. It's good, I think that they're not operating out of a vaccuum. Dentist #3 sometimes uses other splints, like anterior deprogrammers for nighttime, versus Dentist #2 just uses the LVI splint. He also seemed more well-versed in other pain therapies. I got the sense that Dentist #3 was more eager to treat, had more time to treat, and had more tools to treat. He was slightly older, slightly more experienced, etc. So, I booked with Dentist #3. BUT THEN....
The Mass Board of Dentistry called. I had inquired about the 3 NM dentists. Both Dentist #2 and Dentist #3 have been dentists for about 24 years. In that time, Dentist #2 had 2 complaints, but Dentist #3 had 7 complaints, plus an "advisory letter" issued by the Board. I cancelled with Dentist #3.
I also called the Board of Dentistry in CA and NV (inquiring about Chan) and in NH (inquiring about NM Dentist #4). All three of those Boards told me that the public is NOT entitled to know if any complaints have been filed against dentists in their states. They only tell you if those dentists ever had their license suspended. Versus, in Massachusetts they tell you how many complaints, the nature of those complaints (ie incompetence, unprofessional conduct, etc.) and how the complaint was resolved (usually dismissed by the Board). In NV, the bureaucrat I spoke to actually scolded me for inquiring about Chan, as if I was doing something unethical by asking if there had been any complaints. This was eye-opening.
I also found out that the $500 an hour dentist I have been seeing has had 6 complaints, mostly about $$$ (overcharging, breech of contract/dispute was financial, misrepresentation, two charges of unprofessional conduct, and one charge of inferior and improper work...all dismissed). Very enlightening! I have very little respect for most dentists, given that they have ruined my life (starting with orthodontics at age 13), so I tend to think that at least SOME of the complaints have plenty of merit, even though the complaints were dismissed by the Board (the Board of Mediocre Dentists, probably).
NH NM Dentist #4 finally spoke with me over the phone. He sounded rushed and not at all eager to take my case. He didn't sound like he had more experience than the other 3 NM dentists. He did admit to having some tmj cases with "unstable bites" that he hasn't been able to resolve. He told me my bite is probably very unstable, and that if he were me, he'd only go to Dr. Chan at this point.
So, I called Chan's office, and a woman asked me a bunch of questions, told me I'd be a difficult case (even for Chan), told me the cost (he's right up there with my $500 an hour dentist)...I'd be spending well over $100K, plus travel, lodging, time away from work, etc. She asked me several times if I had the money. I said not THAT much. She asked me what was my religion (I found that intrusive) and she suggested that I pray (also inappropriate).
After all of this burst of effort ending in a quagmire, I collapsed.
Then, I emailed Dentist #2 and was straight with him about the things I learned, and why he seemed to be my best option. I figured I should tell him what happened, because he and Dentist #3 have discussed my case, and seem to be in the same study-circle. And, I cancelled with Dentist #3 very abruptly after hearing from the Board. Dentist #2 said he was willing to take my case. He said I should call Monday morning if I want to proceed (he could make time for me on Thursday.)
So, now I'm trying to get calm and decide if Dentist #2 is the way to go. If I DON'T go with Dentist #2, then I see that I will have to travel FAR AWAY to find a dentist fully trained in NM, or a more functional (as opposed to conventional, which I've already tried) approach. I love the sound of that Dr. Miller (I think he's in Seattle) who has HAD iatrogenic tmj and sounds truly informed, sincere and for real. But, I just don't have that kind of money. In the past 6 years, I have spent almost $200K on this problem, and as things stand, I would have been better off just flushing that money down the toilet.
Or, maybe I SHOULD go into massive debt, max out my credit cards, etc. But what if it doesn't work? Already I have a 15 year old car that's falling apart, I lost my house, I'm pretty much slumming it as it is. Every cent goes down the dental hole.
You know, when I hear some people complain that so-and-so dentist is EXPENSIVE because they've paid $2000 or $15,000, or whatever, I feel like they're in the MINOR league in terms of what I've spent. Am I the biggest $$$ sucker on this board?
GoodThings
03-13-2005, 08:39 PM
Hello Grapes,
You are not alone in this. We are all suffering right now, and taking advantage of. This is a true case. A women suffered terrible heacaches from tmj. She spent tons on doctors. Even sold her house so she can have money to see doctors. In the end, nothing worked. Finally, she went to this physician. This physician is a Harvard medical grad. He didn't know what was going on with her. So he contact his, i think brother in law or something, and told him that he had a patient with terrible headaches. That she sold her house so she can see doctors. And that she is still in pain. The brother in law went to see her. And immediately he recognized that it was tmj. He treated her, and she was well again. No pain. Went back to work, and life was great again. Who is this brother in law you ask? i mentioned his name on my last post. If you research his work, you know he does the right treatment.
take care,
GT
You are not alone in this. We are all suffering right now, and taking advantage of. This is a true case. A women suffered terrible heacaches from tmj. She spent tons on doctors. Even sold her house so she can have money to see doctors. In the end, nothing worked. Finally, she went to this physician. This physician is a Harvard medical grad. He didn't know what was going on with her. So he contact his, i think brother in law or something, and told him that he had a patient with terrible headaches. That she sold her house so she can see doctors. And that she is still in pain. The brother in law went to see her. And immediately he recognized that it was tmj. He treated her, and she was well again. No pain. Went back to work, and life was great again. Who is this brother in law you ask? i mentioned his name on my last post. If you research his work, you know he does the right treatment.
take care,
GT
grapes
03-14-2005, 10:33 PM
I assume you're talking about Dr. S in Minnesota. I saw Dr. Yerkes, who is a Functional Orthodontist and uses Spahl's techniques. He told me that, because every tooth in my mouth is crowned, root canaled, crown lengthened, etc., my teeth are too far gone for ortho. He told me I was a great example of how dentists harm patients, and that he felt really bad for me, but couldn't think of a single thing that could help me at this stage. After I left his office, I seriously wanted to kick the can. That's when I first started posting on healthboards.
grapes
03-17-2005, 05:44 AM
He's a real gung-ho firebrand. He thinks he can help. (Is there anyone he thinks he CAN'T help?)
He talks a lot. Enthusiastic. Does he listen? Pay attention to feedback?
Wow. Big decision. $150K down the toilet so far. Another big tmj gamble. I'd have to fly there from Boston.
I'd love to hear from Navy and East Coast (East Side?). I've followed their posts, but these kind of trailed off last July. Are you gals into Stage II at this point or still in Stage I? How's it going?
He talks a lot. Enthusiastic. Does he listen? Pay attention to feedback?
Wow. Big decision. $150K down the toilet so far. Another big tmj gamble. I'd have to fly there from Boston.
I'd love to hear from Navy and East Coast (East Side?). I've followed their posts, but these kind of trailed off last July. Are you gals into Stage II at this point or still in Stage I? How's it going?
dlys14
05-04-2005, 10:40 PM
Hi there,
I've been seeing a neuromuscular dentist in Chicago for about a year and had lots of success. I also found my doctor on the LVI site. I've had TMJ for over 10 years: chronic pain, muscle spasms, jaw locking, the works. This is the first treatment that has actually helped me. Everyone is different, so you never know what will work, but I'm very pleased with the results overall. I've been given a splint that I wear 24/7 and have occasional TENS therapy.
It is definitely expensive--and in my case not covered by insurance, but the relief from chronic pain has been so worth it. Hope this helps.
I've been seeing a neuromuscular dentist in Chicago for about a year and had lots of success. I also found my doctor on the LVI site. I've had TMJ for over 10 years: chronic pain, muscle spasms, jaw locking, the works. This is the first treatment that has actually helped me. Everyone is different, so you never know what will work, but I'm very pleased with the results overall. I've been given a splint that I wear 24/7 and have occasional TENS therapy.
It is definitely expensive--and in my case not covered by insurance, but the relief from chronic pain has been so worth it. Hope this helps.
TrixiT
06-05-2005, 05:39 PM
Hello Grapes,
I'd be interested to know who you finally went to and also, you mentioned a Dr.Miller in Seattle. Do you have any other informatin on him? I'm looking for a TMJ Specialist in that area. Thanks
I'd be interested to know who you finally went to and also, you mentioned a Dr.Miller in Seattle. Do you have any other informatin on him? I'm looking for a TMJ Specialist in that area. Thanks