I would love to hear how everyone on Sub. is doing and what dosage you all are at. I'm still at 4 mgs. (was supposed to drop to 3 mgs. last week, but was so sick with the flu that I couldn't "deal" with anything else). I'm having a hard time with it though. I'm REALLY sick of it....I think I'm just about DONE. Meaning, I want off....NOW. I know, I know...I have to wean, and slowly (my doctor is great, and he is willing to taper me as slowly as I need to go)~ but I have some side effects that are driving me absolutely nuts. First of all, when I take my dose in the morning, I truly feel "high". Even more than I did while taking the pain pills. I gradually "come down" throughout the day, but by the evening time~ I'm in a horrible mood...I'm literally zapped, tired, exhausted, etc. Also, I've gained so much weight~ and that is about to open a whole other can of worms for me. I actually needed to gain the weight, but I have this "issue" with my appearance, and now that I've put on 10lbs., I feel like I've put on 50+ lbs (just to give you an idea how neurotic I am about my weight...I'm 5'5" and NOW weight 112lbs..yes, I was 102 when I started the Sub.). I know much of it is water weight, but I also have a HUGE appetite~ and for SWEETS! I have always HATED sweets before. I now literally eat a box to a box and a half of strawberry fruit roll-ups every night~ LOL~ and I've become addicted to chocolate eclairs~ I can eat 5-6 of them every night, too (they are the small one's though~ haha~ just had to clarify that). The other issues are: severe constipation (the flu I had last week helped with that, but now it's already back), numbness in my arms, and legs while sleeping, and numbness in my fingertips when it's even somewhat cold outside. Does anyone else have all of these "strange" side-effects? I'm just at the point to where I'm so ready to be done with it. I do not have any pain pill cravings at this point, but I DO want off the Sub. I want a clear head again (like I said above, I still feel "high" or "out of it" after taking the Sub.), I want to be completely drug-free. Realistically, how quickly could I taper from the Sub. without too much discomfort? I'm not scared of the W/D's once I do make the jump, but I know I can't jump from 4 mgs. (or I don't think I can anyway). Any input would be very much appreciated....and Banker, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to hear how you are doing. If you've posted recently I've missed it, so I'll go back and search for your last (or most recent) post. Ok, now I need replies! ;)

Weird, I don't feel high at all on Suboxone and I am taking 20mg a day. I too, have put on 10lbs since starting the sub, I guess I have to start hitting the gym a little harder LOL! As for your weight, are you kidding me? You think you have a problem? At 112 lbs? Nah, I don't think so......

Hang in there, your doing great.

ChristianMom
How are you doing? I just noticed your post, I guess I am one of the etcs. lol
anyway, I am also on 4mgs a day, my doc cut me from 8mg to 4mgs last Thursday. I didn't really feel anything different, just a little achy when waking up, and I noticed my attitude was bad, just kind of pissy over the weekend, now I'm used to the 4mgs so I'm my usual happy self. As far as side effects I am glad (not really glad but encouraged?) that you too have the numbness in your fingers, I get it in my left hand, mostly thumb, pointer and middle fingers, its very weird that you have it too. Now as for appetite, check one of my old posts, my thing is Dove Ice Cream Bars, my wife got these oatmeal penut butter chocolate chip cookies that I just can't stop eating. My weight went is under control because I am a gym rat, although in spite of all the exercise I have put on a couple lbs. Are you on a planned taper, or are you on your own? I am in a Medical Detox program that works a slow taper, I can't wait to be done with the sub, at first I thought it was great now I'm sort of sick of it, yesterday I forgot it, I disolve it on my way work, I had to turn around and go back and get it. I tried to quit form 6mg to 0, big mistake around day 3 I thought I was going insane, day 4 back on the sub and sticking to the plan. The Doc said they have meds for the last taper from 1 to 0 do have any idea what they could be? Give me a shout back and let me know how you are doing...............JT

I am 23 days off of sub (+pot & the occasional valium). I began the sub in Aug 04. I also experienced a lot of side effects - ie. fatigue, nasua, constipation a buzzed feeling at the beginning (that went away), increased appetite (I gained about 15lbs), and my depression was pretty bad when I tapered myself to 2mg & less. Looking back I seemed to have prolonged the agony at that point. In restrospect the really low dosage of 2 mg most days, 4mg on the occasional day that I decided were 'busy' and required an extra boost, kept me just a little sick every day. Eventually I too just had 'had enough' - esp. of my moods & energy being governed by my dosage of sub.

The first week clean was bad, the first 5 days being the worst. Now I am feeling like a human being. My skin is clearing up, my energy level is returning little by slowly and I am not craving. :) It is wonderful to be free of it. I am just about ready to hit the gym again and work off those extra lbs. I do not miss the sub today AT ALL... sometimes a fleeting thought about valium and the pot, but not the sub... nothing I can't wait out.

When I had had it aI had had it and it has felt soooo good to feel my body get healthy and clean again. It has been a while! I wish you much luck & send prayers your way. It is soooo worth it. :cool:

Weird, I don't feel high at all on Suboxone and I am taking 20mg a day. I too, have put on 10lbs since starting the sub, I guess I have to start hitting the gym a little harder LOL! As for your weight, are you kidding me? You think you have a problem? At 112 lbs? Nah, I don't think so......

Hang in there, your doing great.

Thanks for responding, and thank you for the encouraging words! Yes, I realize that my weight isn't really a "problem", but to gain it so quickly freaks me out...especially since I've had to try so hard to keep weight on (and then of course, once I do start gaining weight I freak out)...just another one of my many "issues", I guess. I too work out at the gym, but haven't been in several weeks due to being sick, kids being sick, etc. I'm sure once I get back into it, I'll start feeling better about myself. Thanks again for writing...oh, and how long have you been on the Sub., and how long do you intend to take it (if you don't mind me asking!)?

JT (mrgrateful)~

First of all, don't feel bad that you are one of the "etc.'s"~ LOL! I just can't remember who all is on the Sub., so don't take it personally! ;) I am so glad you responded though...I love to read about everyone's experience on this stuff. I mentioned to my doctor the numbness and tingling~ he didn't act surprised at all so I guess it's a common occurrance. That's too funny about your Dove bar fetish and the cookies..what is it with the sweets?! I too would consider myself a "gym rat", but haven't been in a few weeks (I mentioned that in my previous post...we've had the "bug" around here and I've got it now. I couldn't even imagine working out the way I feel right now! I know I'll feel better once I get back to the gym though). I really feel like most of my weight is water weight...I wake up really "puffy" in the mornings especially. I'm hoping that once I get off of the Sub., that the weight will leave me as well. I am on a scheduled taper~ was supposed to drop to 3 mgs. last week, but didn't due to the "sickies". Actually, I'm not real sure of what my exact schedule is..my doctor just told me to take it as slow as I feel comfortable with. I'll go down to 3 mgs. until I feel fine, then drop to 2 mgs., etc. I don't know how or when I'll take the final "jump". He hasn't mentioned anything about meds. to take during that time, but I go see him again on Thursday, so I'll ask him then. All I know is, I'm so ready! Anyway, please stay in touch and keep me (and all of us!) posted on how you are doing and how the taper is going. I'll be looking for your posts! ;) Thanks again for responding!

2bclean~


First and foremost...CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!! I am so proud of you, and your story has been so encouraging to me (and I'm sure to many others!). If you don't mind going into more detail, how much Sub. exactly were you taking when you stopped completely? Also, you said the first 5 days were really bad...what exactly did you experience? Have you ever gone C/T before, and if so, how did it compare to that? I want as many details as you are willing to share~ LOL! I'm wanting to get off of this as quickly as possible, and I'm SO ready to be able to think with a completely clear head again! I know it's not going to be easy, and I've prepared myself for that. I'm just wondering how long I feel REALLY bad (meaning, how long will I feel like I want to die?! Could you even function during those 5 days? Were you able to get out of the house, work or whatever?). Any (more) information you can share would be so very much appreciated! I know we all experience withdrawals differently, too..but I would still like to hear it from someone that just went through it. Once again, I am so extremely proud of you~ you are my inspiration so please don't leave us!!! We all need you to stick around and remind us that it can be done, okay?! ;)

I was on a tapor (percocets) for almost a year. Then switched to methadone for about six months. My doc wanted me to go straight to Suboxone, but the VA pharmacy didn't stock it in the formulary. After a few months of trying, she got them to stock it. So, after six months of methadone, I'm on suboxone and have been for almost a month and a half. How long I stay on it is up to my doctor, I really trust her. She is a psychiatrist specializing in addictions with veterans who have other issues too. So, if she tapors me by 4 mg per month, I figure I've got another five or six months and then I'll see if I can get off and stay off.

Yes 2bclean, please do relate your sub experiences. I believe you are the first respondent who has finished a sub taper (at least as far as I have read on here) and Christianmom, it sounds like we are on about the same schedule. I am supposed to check in with my detox coach on thursday, she will probably ask me to cut it in half again (down to 2 mgs) its been 5 or six days on 4mg, I tend to feel a little nauseous this time of day its 4pm, but going to the gym really helps. I love the steam bath afterwards it is ooooh soooooo relaxing, plus if I go an extra 15 minutes on the precor (thats an eliptical trainer) I get a Dove Bar LOL
Talk to you all tomorrow......JT

Banker & Lisa .....still here? Easter was wonderful, hope your was the same. Easter Bunny told me to say "HEY"

Yes, twins, do come out and play. I miss you both. Windy too. Come out, come out where ever you are!!

Patty

ioafd,
Sorry, I was trying to get a gift sent to a friend. I haven't seen the "Twinkies" in a while . I hope that things are working out well for them and I'm sure that they are, maybe they just needed a little break from the board. Hopefully we'll be hearing from them before long and I'll bet thet're missing us as much as we are missing them. But if you see them and for some reason I miss them tell them I said "Hello". Gotta go jump in shower.....I know TMI, have a great day
Marilyn

Hi friends-
Sorry ive been lost in a sub w/d-ugh..i caved-after 48 hrs..took a little..to deal-w/ work..its not gonna be as easy as i thought-i was really feeling bad.
So-whats next?
Keep titrating down-how long?I don't know..gonna have to get a week off-from work-to go thru it..the lethagy/chilled to the bone-racing thoughts..im a baby..i want out-but the w/ds really got me..
Banker/CMOM-its gonna take some time/effort-to do this..i wish i had better news-but im weak.When those w/ds kick in-i cave.
Need time off-how/when?
Im fat/depressed-and getting antsy.
But i send my love/prayers-
2beclean/Iofard...you are strong!Congrads on getting off-this...your our inspiration...
feeling..defeated..
ggrl :angel:

feeling..defeated..
ggrl :angel:[/QUOTE]

Hi GGrl,
I hope you can get past this feeling...you are NOT defeated..only a minor setback. Sub is truly a gluey med...it's just that it's going to take time and mind set to stay with the game. I am really sorry you feel it's getting the best of you. It is the nature of the beast to want things now. You have done wonderfully so far. You WILL be off this drug. I would stay off it untill you just can't stand it and then take a crumb. Extend the length of time you are off..if even by 5 minutes or 10. Just like I did when I started running (yeah, running at 220 lbs) but I ran one step longer every day which got me to running 5 miles a day for 12 years..but I couldn't run more than 10 steps at first. My reward was losing 100 lbs. Your reward will be sobriety. Prayer works
and you will be on the recieving end from me. If you can, exercise a little. It has always helped me while detoxing to NOT stay curled up on the couch.
Sending Stick-to-itness,
SS

Yikes, I thought was too good to be true...Goddessgrl you really think it'l take a week off work to kick the sub? And, Ioafd it sounds like you toughed it out Ok, I'm curious because I am into it about 4 weeks down to 4mgs, you went 4,3,2,1 to none or 4mgs to none, and how many days did you feel crappy, did you need antidepressants or anything? I am grateful I'm off the hydros but am I now "on" sub? I'll just go along with the Doc's plan and try not to be a wuss about it. Thanks for any input......JT

Hey Guys -

I posted at the beginning of my sub treatment but didn't really hear much back so I haven't been writing too much on these boards. However, I just finished my taper and I have to say, it wasn't all that bad.

8mg completely knocked me out, and so I started on about 1 tab 3x a day, then 1 tab 2x a day. Then I was too sleepy while at work, so the doc just had me take 2 at night. Then last week I met with him and he and I decided that it was enough and it was time to come off. That day he had me just take 1 a day and then meet him in a week. Also, I was to not take anything the day before I saw him. To be honest, I took a few more than that during my taper, but honestly, when I finally stopped taking them, I felt relatively ok. I didnt feel super duper, but I certainly didn't feel like I did on vicodin w/d's. Maybe a little grumpy, my stomach was rumbling a bit, but that was a nice change from being constipated all the time!!

I also gained about 15lbs and I can't tell you how glad I am to hear I wasn't the only one. So, I've been working out at least once a day, sometimes 2 times, and its been about 4 days and Im doing ok.

Best of luck to you, and if there is anything else you need or any questions you have, I am here to help as much as I can. I was very scared to taper off for fear of having cravins, or feeling sick or just that blah feeling you get when all your meds are gone. And to some extent it was there, but not enough that I noticed very much...

She Sparkles-
Thanx for the kind words-your right-ill be ok-and im gonna skip days etc to do this..
i was just burnt out from all the w/d stuff-
ill be ok-and keep on/keepin on..Im gonna start doing more exercise-i do walk quite a bit..and am pretty active..generally..not too much time on the couch..
Pilates anyone????LOL...How are you doing SS???

Camilloc-
Im sorry you didn't get more replys when you were detoxing-it is scary-but i appreciate your help/concern-anything you could offer in terms of how you hung in there-would be great to hear right now..
I thank you for checking in-and ill be hanging in there-The weight really quick to come-and hard to shake..the diet part has been hard..sweets got the best of me-i have been doing better-and working out has gotta be part of it..
Thanx again..
ggrl

[QUOTE=goddessgrl65].How are you doing SS???

Well, after running for 12 stinkin years...5 miles a day every day and losing 100 lbs I ran myself into the ground and have a very painful muscle disorder and an Achilles tendon bursitis that is not fixable so at 53 I am almost immobilized from the pain. No more running and when I stopped running I put on all kinds of weight. But I can't do anything about it. My pain meds are doled out to me as I am not reliable...lol and should I ever have to come off them Sub is in my future. I am learning all I can about the stuff before I need it. But the pain is very bad so until I fix that I am stuck on the patch.
Keep that chin up,
SS

Hi ggrl,

Hang in there sweetie. Don't feel bad that you took a bit to get you through a work day. I can't imagine what you are going through with the sub. You are doing such a great job. Can you time it where you can have a couple along with a weekend to finish out the last little crumb of sub?

Please let us know how you are doing. I'm praying for you.

Take care,
Patty

Hi guys and gals,
I am not on sub. but wanted to give support to those of you on it and trying to get off of it. I am still interested in it, but i guess it comes down to....you have to face withdrawal one way or another. Are we just putting off w/d by using sub....i don't think so. It helped so many to re-learn how to live life w/out drugs and cravings.
Goddessgrl.....hang in there, you are a tough one, i know you can do this. Don't consider it "caving", you gotta do what you gotta do to get thru this. it seems like at the end of tapering, we all get antsy and want to completely get off and get off NOW, but it takes time and patience.....
slow and easy...is the key, i think.
Guess where i am going for my 5th wedding anniversary this weekend????
Salem, MA :D I love it there!!! I thought you would appreciate that too!
We are staying for the weekend, kid-less for the first time in many years. I feell like a dam teenager going on a first date or something, very nervous!!!
I just love all the shops in Salem, i could and WILL spend hours browsing and asking questions, the shop owners are VERY imformative....wicca has always intrigued me...
O.k......you guys hang in there, you are ALL doing extremely well.
Don't jump the gun, slow and easy........
Sending lots of {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} to everyone
luv,
LISA

Lissa-
Thats so awesome..lucky you!!!
I know of a few great shops..etc.
Been to a "convention" there!!!
ggrl

Hey Goddessgrl....we are staying in the "honeymoon suite" at the Salem Inn. There is a really good restaurant we go to on the water....it sits like on a dock, real good service and food, with a gorgeous view. Tell me some good shops to go into.... i am just a beginner, i have a cauldron, my hubby bought me a crystal ball, very small one, some mini-swords, a small bell and quite a few pentacles. I have to keep most of it in my room now, because my daughter thinks i am a freak and is embarassed when her friends ask about it, and my sons are TOO interested and i don't trust them yet. LOL
So give me some good hot spots....what other things do you think i should purchase....any good books??? I have several already, i think by scott cunningham and silver raven wolf??? I could be wrong, i am just too lazy to get off of my butt to go upstairs and look :D
O.k....let me know,, I AM SO PSYCHED!!! This is one of my favorite places in the world!!! It is supposed to pour all weekend, but i don't care....i am actually looking forward to this, i just hope hubby is in good spirits too,but he likes it up there too.
O.k......post soon!
love,
LISA

ChristianMom & Fellow Posters ,

Thank you so much for your words of support. I truly need them. We all do?!?! It is a battle. Today I am winning, :cool: thanks to these boards and other people who have reached out to me. I wrote a long response and got bumped, here it goes again… just to let you know my creds....

This is not my first time CT. I was on oxy and bup for about a year and a half during which I CT’d and picked up. In July of 03 I did an impatient detox from a long and LARGE bup habit (the pain med in sub). I stayed clean for about six mos before relapsing around the Jan of 04. By Aug 04 I was on sub. I felt crazy going on the sub, because my detox from bup was TOO awful. There were literally bugs under my skin, forget crawling- ikes it was horrific, I did not sleep more than an hour or two at a time for over 3wks and I was horribly weak and had severe body aches etc. for four weeks +.

Even with this prior exp. , I chose to go on sub. I could not live with the oxy or vics and could not live without SOMETHING. I had developed resentments towards recovery and ‘the rooms’ and did could not hack it clean - at least not alone. What a roller coaster from HELL I have been on.

The sub doc gave me 32 mg of sub a day to start and I was down to 24 by Oct 04, which he said was a good maintance dose for at least 8mos. In the back of my mind I knew that the longer I took it, and the higher my dose the worse the big day of giving up the crutch would be. I knew I would have to give it up because I just did not feel ‘right’ on the sub. It stopped my cravings, I was not drug seeking, but I was tired most of the time, if not a bit queasy, my spirit was dependent upon my dose. I was without motivation to do anything. Regardless of what they say about no interaction of sub and ad’s, my antidepressants were not working and my depression was progressively getting worse. I wanted to DIE.

With this as my motivation I tapered myself to around 2mgs by Jan 05. I was taking crumbs of sub every day or every other day by the beginning of March, using valium & pot to help with the nausea, cold sweats, restlessness and anxiety esp the last week or so. On March 06 I called someone in the 'recovery' and went to my first meeting. March 07 was my first day completely clean. The first five days were filled with anxiety, cramping, skin crawling (no ‘bugs under the skin’ this time – THANK GOD), chills, restless and sweaty nights but by day six I was left with the bad headache and back ache. I would suggest to anyone to try and put a 4-7 days a side to heal from ‘flu like symptoms!’ The moderate headache and back pain lasted until the end of the third week but YES after 20 days this subsided. :)

Today, hitting a meeting a day, using these boards as help and a place to share I have 26 days of FREEDOM and beginning to feel physically good. The fog and pain of detox is lifting little by slowly. Still a bit tired, but I can deal. I am shy at AA meetings still and these boards are where I share the meat of what is going on. I am choosing AA over NA for personal reasons- I know what my demons are and I substitute N for A when reading or listening. I have needed both the boards and the meetings to get this far. I could not have done it alone.

I pray for everyone suffering with this addiction and say just KEEP THE FAITH and HOPE that IT WILL GET BETTER. It is true hell on earth while using and detoxing. I know I need all of the help and prayers I can get!!! Thank you all so much for sharing so openly and honestly on the board it has helped me more than you can know. I hope it helps someone to know that I am so much better today and it IS POSSIBLE to get through it if you REALLY BELIEVE THAT IT WILL PASS and WILL GET BETTER. I PROMISE that it is TRUE!!!!

GoddessGirl your quiting for a few days DID make the big jump that much easier. THE PAIN WILL PASS!!!
Hot baths are GREAT... even today.

:angel: Healing thoughts to you all, Lisa (2bclean)

This must of been posted at the same time-came up in a weird place..
No disrespect to anyone..
Came up between two important posts-from other posters-
please delete..

Same boat here, tapering from 4mg after about a month trying to stabalize after a year of abuse. The doc has ordered 1 week at 3mg per day, 1 week at 2mg per day, 1 week at 1mg per day. then done. I have to say I was feeling just fine taking the 4mg. But I know I have to get off of all this crap, there are definitely side effects. For me, at first I had the eating sensation but luckliy it wore off fast. I definitely don't need to gain weight (already 190, 6') I really need to lose 20. lol. Other bad sides are the arms falling to sleep, random twitching at night. like a startle. the worst though is I have been having chest pains. Blood pressure is ok, I take it 2x per day because the abuse left me with super high bp (200/120). When I first went into the doc they freaked and rolled out the ekg machine because they thought I was going to have a heart attack. :eek: Im on clonodine to control the high bp. So today is the first day of going from 4-3mg and of course my nose is stuffing up and my legs are aching - all of the old favorites. I really believe that sub is a more "comfortable" way to get clean. I too get a feeling of well being, especially within the first few hours of taking the sub. I wish there weren't side effects because it would be an awesome anti-depressant. It seems to fit me perfectly.

It's reassuring to no I'm not alone in this a hert felt congratulations to 2bclean way to go ! I can't wait until the 0 day. Glad to hear your still out there electric guy, it was actually your posts about a month or six weeks ago that gave me the courage to call the sub docs office. Hang in there everybody.

2beclean-
Please no disrespect-my post to lissa came up between your very important post-I wish you much love/healing/peace..you've have been thru the hell of addiction and detox-and Goddess bless you-this is no joke..and i know my day is coming..
im doing the best i can right now-taking small pieces.
Thank you for wishing me well-i have total respect..for what you've dealt with-its one of the toughest thing to do-your brain chemistry/your being.
Sending prayers-to you..
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
ggrl

No disrespect taken. I have been following your story and that of others long before I posted- your prayers and good wishes have made all of the difference.
With Grattitude -L

Thanks too for the great encouragement. So today I slipped because when I was cracking my 2mg in half it crumbled and I had to take the whole thing. :nono: I think im going to get a pill chopper at the drug store so that doesn't happen again.

Sorry lost my post-i gotta take a typing class-(slowest in the land)
Mr,Grateful/Electricguy-ive been following you guys as well-and praying for all of us...
electric..i did the same thing this morning-those pillcutters are odd-i ran out of 2's-had only 8s-took a tiny piece..1mg/or more?
Everyone-hang in there-im under the weather here-bad night last night.
Peace to all..
ggrl

Hmm? pill cutter? my sub is a soft gooey thing. it is 8mgs its scored in half, it cuts easily with a razor blade and is flavored with butterscotch are the ones you guys take pills or what?

All I can say is I can relate.... I guess I need to taper more? But I'm so much like most of you... I want off NOW! Even at 4 mgs (sometimes 3 mgs), I still am hurting in the mornings... How in the heck am I going to do this? I lost my chance... I cannot take off of work anymore...

I'm going to have to suck it up. I want off!!!! But honestly, can anyone really, honestly say that going down to 1 or .5 will make a tremendous difference? Let me know what you guys think. And what if I take about 20 mgs of methadone for the first week??? Let me know your thoughts. It's tough...

Banker~

Hi lady! I've missed "seeing" you here (but I haven't been around either)! I just had to respond to your last post...I feel the EXACT same way, I want off NOW. I'm also around 3-4 mgs. a day (but tried 2 mgs. for the past 2 days), and I'm having an awful time, and just like you~ especially in the mornings. I have more to write on the subject (and I need to go back and read all of the other posts), but I just got home from work and need to get dinner started. I'll try to jump on here later this evening and write more. We CAN do this, it's just not so fun. Hang in there and let's support each other (that includes ALL of us that are tapering off of this stuff)...I know I for one will need all the support I can get!

Love ya and miss ya~ will write more soon!

Hi All, I am not a Sub user nor am i an expert on it, but i was just thinking after reading Bankers post, seeing how it is so very hard for some to lower their dose of the Sub and jump off, why dont the doctors prescribe a short course (like 4-7 days) of methadone to keep the pains of w/d at bay. Only taking the methadone for that short time wouldnt "get you addicted", ya know?

I dont know, i guess i am thinking out loud again.
Just a thought!

Valley

Valley,

I honestly think it's for two reasons... one, it takes Sub at least three days to get out of your system... And I would venture to say (this is after reading lots of posts from Chef) but the two drugs probably don't mix at all... they will both be fighting to get on your receptors and maybe the docs are worried that people will use it incorrectly???

Also, I've taken methadone before and it gave me a nice little high that was just like taking lortabs... (I've heard that high goes away after a few weeks) but I would take one 10 mgs pill and it was like taking 5 lortab. Well, most people on Sub haven't felt a high since they started on it... if they start on methadone, they will get that feeling again and it may jump start them back on their drug of choice...??? That's all I can think of. But more docs need to be giving out clonidine during Sub withdrawals... they aren't.

Hey Banker, Thanks a bunch for the info! I have a couple questions maybe you can answer, i am guessing from reading the posts on here from the ones who are weaning from the sub that the w/d's are worse than per se lortab or perks? Is that true? If the question has been asked and answered already on here and i missed it, i am sorry.

Also i was wondering from either experience or from reading others experiences, when a dr. prescribes clonidine to ease w/d symptoms, what is considered the standard dose most often prescribed? I was wondering because my dr. had prescribed it to me at one time while i was w/d from Fentanyl that they had me on and it helped, minimally. So i was wondering if the dose i was prescribed was at the low end.

I know that we havent talked much back and forth but i wanted to tell you just the same how very strong you are and you are truely an inspiration to many of us on here. Keep up the good work!

Valley

Banker & CMOM, fellow 'Sub Sufferers,'
I hope I can offer some words of encouragement. I really think that tapering helps as coming off of a high dose bup was AWFUL and coming off a low dose of sub was no fun, but it was not so bad. I am glad I had some valium around while tapering, it really took the edge off. Once I finally through in the towel it was five days of 'white knuckling' it and then it began to get better. I did the best I could, and I think that is all that we can ask of ourselves. It took me sooooo many days of sub 'crumbs', skipping days, & false starts before I could take the leap.

Once I made the decision to stop it gave me a sense of freedom but I could not have stuck to that decision w/o the support of others. My BF was patient with me, friends stopped by to check on me, and I made a meeting every day (still am). My best suggestion is to take it really easy and elimate as much stress from your life as you can while you detox. Also, telling other people and getting their encouragement was so helpful. You know we've got your back here on the boards ;).

It is not easy, can't lie to you about that, but it is possible. I so promise that if you make it through that first five days, maybe six ?, things really begin to get better. You will not sweat all night, you will begin to sleep normally, your body aches will begin to go away and you will see the light at the end of the tunnel IF you look hard enough. (tee-hee)

Today I am so grateful 2 b clean and so grateful to all of you. YOU CAN DO IT. If this sick addict can so can you. My prayers are with you. Beautiful things are waiting ... it is so worth being sick for a little while... SO WORTH IT.

At 32 days CLEAN I can give you a some of my hope...
:angel: -L
A dopeless Hope Fiend :cool:

2BClean - you've NO IDEA how much you've helped me to know that it's possible... I remember reading your 'five day' instead of TWO WEEKS (although I am not being unrealistic... I Know it's not going to end at day 6 or 7) but the reality of feeling just a little better around those days is so much more encouraging to hear than 14 days.

Also, the mind is so powerful and since I've been unsuccessful on getting off before, I'm extremely concerned about this. I just don't feel so bound and determined like I did before. I don't have that 'I don't have a choice' feeling anymore and that worries me. But I'll be w/my friend this weekend and we'll just have to see if I can make it hour by hour, day by day. He doesn't know the whole story. He thinks that I was mislead into getting on this med and am now stuck on it. If he knew of my previous problems, he'd be history. But... again, he's good for me NOW. He really pushes me to try and make myself a better person, almost to spite him.

As my counselor says.... (and she knows he's not good for me... TOO controlling, although I need someone that does that a little (that father figure I never had - but he's not old) but he very much takes the 'man' role. I like that to a degree but he goes overboard. My counselor knows me and knows that when I get off of this, lose my weight, have the accomplishment of getting off of opiates behind me, she knows that I will be ready to be alone and love it. She knows that I have a tremendous rebellious side and any other time, I'd be telling this man to shove it... BUT.... he has a hold on me now and I honestly believe that God sends people our way to do different things in our lives. I try to learn something from everyone... Even if that something is that I DO NOT want to be with a very strong, controlling man. But as my counselor says... "USE HIM". Use him as your motivation, even though you are doing this for you.... he's helping me.

Just please pray I can do it. Oh, a VERY important factor here.... I found a bottle (and people addicted to Ultram, don't freak out) but I have a bottle of that and have talked to a professional and they said I could take it for a week and it would help me. I know I used to use it during Lortab withdrawals too and it helped... Never made me high, but helped. But i'm trying to save those (I have a weeks worth) until at minimum, the third day because I feel like it won't do me any good to start sooner. Although I called the pharmacist and they said it would help me NOW... Who knows, I'm just going to wait and hold out as long as possible. I wish I could talk to Rosie..... And Michelle, Twins... I miss my old friends but you guys have been great too and Sis, you know we've always been old friends and that will never change. You and I have had such similiar histories....

Oh, and let me just add..... I've had a friend that has told me that my weight gain has nothing to do with Sub..... and that I could lose it if I wanted too.... I'm not sure of what part of staying under 1,000 calories a day and not losing a lbs he doesn't understand. You know, I know the theory of your body going into starvation mode... but eventually, you will lose weight. Nope, not me. There's another thread where about 10 different people talk about weight gain on Sub. I know that the constipation plays a tremendous role, along with my swelling.... I'm kind of looking foward (in a VERY sick way) to the 'bathroom' problems since I haven't had that in almost a year and a half... THAT's pretty bad!!!
He was/is one of my best friends and we haven't talked in a week. HE was the one that was helping me the most. HE knew the whole story. But all he cares about is being right. I just can't stand it when people, who've never been addicted to these drugs try and act like they know it all.... UGH!!! I guess that's why we come here, huh? And I especially can't stand it when people say 'I know how you feel', when they don't have a freakin' clue. I learned that during management training over and over again. NEVER tell a customer or employee you know how they feel because we've never been in their shoes. But....
Also, I don't think I've yawned the entire time on this medicine. I didn't realize it until I started getting the yawns yesterday.

This morning I was slow moving but two days and I'm o.k. right now. At least, not dying yet. Just pray guys.... please pray that God will help me get that fighting, survivial strength back. I've always had it... I've always been very strong but when it comes to this.... Pray that I can look at this like I do my job... (although I've lost my passion for it as well) but nothing used to stop me. My fight for my daughter before she was even born.... Let's pray I can be strong and fight for my sobriety.

If Yinksy were around, she would be pleased to know that I will be tapering xanax after this... not completely. But I'm taking more than I'd like and I need to come down a bit.... I'd LOVE to take one occasionally instead of daily and maybe I can get to that point... But, with the combination of all of my meds, I'm worried about seizures now. Wellbutrin, Ultram, xanax, (I know xanax doesn't cause it but coming off will) but then throw in withdrawing from Sub.... my body isn't going to be all too happy. THat's another reason why I'm waiting as long as I can on the Ultram. I've cut back on Wellbutrin becuase of its risks... probably a mistake??? Just let the advice keep coming, if you have it in you.

GGSGIRL...... take good care of yourself and again, I'm very, very proud of you. Just think, we are both going to have control of ourselves again. Our bodies and we are going to be healthy.

Banker.......man i'm glad you didn't go the methadone route, I believe the sub and methadone would "fight" each other and your poor receptors would not feel at all happy about that. Keep on keepin on, as the saying goes, one day and one issue at a time. Tomorrow I go to 1.5 mgs., my detox doc is awesome, actually his nurse is, I never had to call them until about 4 or 5 days after dropping from 4mg to 2mg, my wife actually called and she said there is no need to feel uncomfortable, as I mentioned somewhere else (all these threads are hard to keep straight) they gave me some clonidine and hydroxalyne pamoate (sp?) it helped alot, 2 days later, big time anxiety, they called in seraquil (?) have not had that yet, but they suggested try a half first as it is a fairly potent tranquilizer....hang tough everybody, together we will beat this demon......JT

Banker, Sweetie! :-)

It is so good to see you posting again. You have not been forgotten for a minute! I have been reading all along...and following your escapades!

The Subutex has been a godsend in our addiction. Not one single story of the "horrors" and the "screamy, meemies" we may face when getting off it has deterred me from my belief that this is a drug that can work--if YOU work with it! After years of opiates, I just had no memory of what normal life could feel like. I felt that giving up the pills was giving up what minimal life I had.

I was so glued to these opiates, that I desperately needed a long look around at just what I was missing....so I could discover that a "no highs" life could be joyful, too!! And, now, Subutex having given me that glimpse, I feel so much more able to handle any of its withdrawal symptoms as I gradually ease off it. I can finally see a reachable goal. Before that....I just could not see beyond the pain of opiate withdrawal...or beyond the final end to those "highs." Intellectually I could..but not emotionally.

What I meant by "working with the Subutex"--is using its reintroduction of a new and better drugless life to support and help "fortify" you as you begin a taper. I would stay on Sub indefinitely if (1) extensive testing had been done and specfic conclusions determined about long-term use, and...(2) if I experienced severe clinical depression during the taper.

But, as for No. 1--we are still the guinea pigs!

As for No. 2---my wonderful psychiatrist has stated that if too-quick tapering brings on severe clinical depression (which for me is quite distinct from withdrawal symptoms), then my quality of life at the moment is more important than jumping off the Sub. She wants me to taper at a rate that will NOT bring on depression.

Two months ago, tapering from 8 mg to 6 mg. made me feel awful...so "dead". So she had me go back up to 8 mg. Now...two weeks ago, I tried the same taper--8 mg down to 6mg--and had only a couple of days of that flatness. Then I was fine! And this is exactly how my doctor wants me to continue the taper.

Wow, Banker! You have a "cavalry" of drugs you are using off and on. So, I really can't speak with any knowledge or nake any intelligent suggestions as to how they are working. (Though I wouldn't cut the Wellbutrin, without tapering that thru your doctor. You know yourself--and that you DO get depressed.) When you are off and on too many different drugs, it gets almost impossible to figure out which drug is doing what! :D

I'm not sure I "love" the idea of the controller-friend in your life. (If I find a person too "this or that", say, in March......I'm can't see how I'm going to find that person much better in April!! LOL!) I think we need to determine our own bottom line in this fight against pills....and THEN consider others' advice. Someone so overbearing is not going to give you much leeway to follow your OWN course. Just my opinion....but you knew it WOULD be! LOL! :D

Banker, I am so happy to see your fiery, fearlessness back on Board. :-) And that we are all back together to help one another. love to you and all my buddies, xxxx Lynn xxx

Twin good post! I think you you nailed the whole sub thing, about getting an idea what life is like without the pills etc. The first real struggle I had with the sub is now at 2mgs from 16mg, they still want me to go down to 1.5mgs, the plan is now 5 days at 1.5, 5 days at 1, 5 days at .5 and JUMP OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFF
I cant wait

Mrgrateful - Don't worry about the "plunge"--we've all "got your back"! :-) Lynn

Lynn,

Again, I wouldn't go back and change anything.... I needed it to get me to where I am now. Ready to get off of it and get my normal self back (body, brain, etc.). I've got a long road and I don't just mean with Sub... this will be the easy part but I really want to slow down on xanax too. And you're right, I've got a med for just about everything. I want that to stop too.... but right now, it's what I have to do to get off of Sub. Why would you want to taper? I thought you guys were doing very well on it and so I was under the impression that you'd be on it for a while... At least that's what I needed to do, but you are very strong. I miss talking with you very much. And trust me, when I get my self esteem back, this guy will be thanked very much for helping me and I have helped him with some of his depression but I will not be treated like a girl with no brain. And he doesn't do that.... but he wants to and I can tell it so don't worry. I promise!!!

I feel defeated because I lost the first time.... I feel like I can't do it... but I'll try and try again. Just hope this will be my last attempt. I can't wait to have my body back. I want to feel like 2BCLEAN who feels so good.... I want that terribly. But please tell me how you guys are... please let me know about your babies? Theo? Let me know.... I won't be back on though until Sun evening but just wanted you guys to know.

Lynn, I've missed you....... more than you know!

I feel like im going crazy-i keep losing my posts..Twinkies...Yay..!!!What happened-to my post to banker..anyway-So happy to hear from you-i was getting worried...banker/twinks/everyone..hello.
gonna see if this posts-cos its bothersome..
ggrl :angel:

Hi guys-
Mr.Grateful..you got that right-you got lots of support here-and Lynn-
That was a great post-!!!
I have been lapseing into some 'depression days"-during this taper-im on a very small piece-enough to abate w/d-its strange to see what amount can hold me-this is a strong med-no question..and although the #'s are low-the potentcy is there...i had a bad day yesterday..i couldn't move..till 3:00 in the afternoon-but i did rise up..and finished the day..w/ a smile.
I guess there are going to be more bad days ahead-i got to learn to cope w/ the emotional aspect of this w/d-again change of seasons bring up alot of bad memories.
But im getting past that-
Everyone-tapering from sub-we are :angel: all in this together...and we will get thru this..
ggrl

Hi everyone,


Have not posted in awhile. I too, am on Suboxone. I have been on it since 10/03. I started at 16mg up to 20mgs. I was falling asleep standing up/driving. Ahhh not good! I have been addicted to narcotics for about10 yrs, causing me to be arrested twice. FINALLY, my probation is over, and I am on the right track (today). For about 4 months I have been on 4mgs. For 2 days, I have done about 3 mgs. I am soooooooooooooooooo tired. BUT, we have been doing extensive house remodeling. I HATE falling asleep the minute I sit down to watch t.v. Anywho, I am trying to wean down. I want off of it. I too have gained lots!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even though subox has given me my life back, I still feel like I have a monkey on my back. A case and point, back around the holidays my mom and I went shopping. I actually got to the point of forgetting to take the subox. The morning I did that, we were shopping, and I felt weird at about noon time. Like I said, it has given me my life back many times over. I have often thought about staying on it permanatly. I argue w/myself, (no one wins) is it any different than another sickness requiring meds on a daily basis??? I do not know!!!! I have been on it for 1 yr and 7 monts. Wow!! I just realized that now. MY husband asked me if I can handle it. I have been in alot of legal trouble. I can not afford that emotionally again. OH BOY.

When I went from 8 mgs to 4, I was tired for about 4/5 days. It does get better. I have not experienced cold turkey. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOo many questions.

Hope all are doing well. Besides all these dilemas, things are well here, except for the remodeling!

Shell

To All on sub - I am very surprised to see so many of you on sub for such long periods of time. And I wonder how long the sleepiness lasts? Does it get better as the dose is lowered? I was under the impression this drug could be used to prevent w/d and could be taken for no more than 1 week, well at least that's what my dr. told me on my initial visit. Now, here I am 16 days later and taking 2 to 4mg per day. I too have concerns and wonder just how much research has been done on this medication. Anyone who has any information on long term effects would be appreciated. I am looking into this myself and would be glad to post and info.
suz

Suz- That's the problem, we are the research, its only been available for about 2 years, so the best we can do is check in with each other....JT

You sound like i felt on methadone exactly!!!!!!the first time i got on it i hated it and the second time i got on it i got on it to feel that way. it is all pretty heavy opiates. and it is stronger than any pill we get our hands on. i remember taking my dose and nodding out all the time. the sweet cravings come from opiate use. for me i had never been much of a sweet eater and when i started getting high i started craving sweets. it only got more intense when i went on a maintance program. now, three years sober, i really don't like sweets. it is crazy that it does go away.

Suz - too right - sub should only be used for opiate withdrawal - as it has been in Europe for a long time. Lont term use is total madness - just another vile addiction.
Mind you - I firmly believe that some people convince themselves of all sorts of ailments incl addiction/depression whatever - to continue to use. They cannot help it - for they cannot get honest - they are to be pitied. But not you, Sus or JT - hopefully Jessy will see thro it all too. Honestly is the most difficult thing to face.

pillz-
Welcome to the board...
For people who have long term addiction issues-this is the alternative to methadone..
Addiction is a chronic relapsing disease..if you buy that..then there are medications to deal w/ controlling the abuse..(i.e. methadone/and now sub..)
I have never abused this medication-and i have maintained on low doses..
i am currently tapering.
im on literally a crumb-of sub..
This med saved my life..and will and does save other peoples lives..
I am also in therapy-along w/ my treatment.
I was addicted to heroin for nearly a decade..
I understand your post-and the sentiments-but not everyone is able to get clean-the way you did-there are options.Thank God-for that!!
I haven't used my D.O.C. in nearly 2 years-im ready to step off-this treatment now..and live an opiate free life.
I was not able to do that prior to suboxone.
Its not a question of being dishonest-i was totally honest in my appraisal of my personal problems-you gotta keep an open mind-
Not everyone is like you-your chemistry-your addiction is yours..
Ive lost many friends to addiction-and im still here-and getting help.
Would it be better-for me to keep using-cos i couldn't get a handle on it-or choose a treatment plan-to help me break free.
Thank you for listening.
ggrl :angel:

PILZZRME
I have been clean for over three years now but I do remember all too well what that all felt like. i have my life back and have simply moved on. i will never forget where i came from. the minute i do there could be problems. over three years ago i was out there bad, stealing, smoking crack with my methadone, shooting dope, robbing, running the streets, with no one who wanted to know me and no where to go. i landed in jail kicking c/t off 200mg of methadone. that started the process of me getting better and having a serious desire to lead a different life for the first time. i went to a rehab after a few months of jail and than a recovery house. then i went back to a well missed ex-boyfriend who was still using. eventually i used too and we both wound up in jail for a little longer of a stay that time. That was it, i was done in at that time and i have not looked back since. O' and I wound up marrying that ex-boyfriend who came out (partner in crime), we reunited, he wanted to be clean too, and here we are over three years later having our first baby in two weeks and neither one of us have looked back. By the way, we met at the methadone clinic. Sad but true and we are happy now and clean. So there is hope for everyone if we got better. We were bad!!!!!!!!!!

Hi, Pillz,

Welcome to the Board. Like Goddess and others here, the Subutex has been my tool to help me back from the black word of addiction to a point where I am, once again, able to remember just what "normal" means...as in "sitting on the grass, taking in the delicious smell of a new mown lawn"....or "waking up happy...just because it's a blizzard day--and I love blizzards!" :D Without repeating everything that Goddess has said--since she and I and others are in complete accord with one another on our feelings about the Sub, I do want to empathize the "tool" apsect of this drug. For someone like myself, who feels no "highs" or negative physical side-effects from Sub, I have been given the chance to re-experience what was once my life...before opiates blurred and destroyed it. And this experience--these past memories--are more intoxicating than any drug could ever be.

Having had some months to remember how a joyful life was possible....I have now felt the strength to start the long slow taper (and it should be VERY slow to minimize withdrawal--because while Subutex masks any "highs"--it is still a synthetic opoid with its own strong receptors). But I start this taper, now, with all the commitment and hopeful anticipation that was never there when I tried to taper off directly from oxys, Vicodin, etc.

For those like myself, with a history of deep clinical depressions (the kind where life just comes to a full stop, as ones' brain cehmistry changes), quick withdrawal from opiates can be like a spring opening the door to that black monster. And that monster is just what was released when I tried to taper and do my own opiate withdrawal. That blackness came rushing in, setting off a long clinical episode.

I am finding that by doing this very, very slow withdrawal from the Sub, that this is not happening. (That's a miracle in itself!!!) :) And the opiate cravings are so "thinned out" now--more like distant trace memories--and like thoughts of "why did I ever TAKE that stuff!" (Believe me...though...I know how addiction will be a battle I struggle with all my life--just as depression has.) But--just as my antidepressants have become my tool to ward off the worst attacks--this Subutex has been my tool to remind me of the joys of an addiction-free life.

And...just like I would not deny insulin to my younger sister who is diabetic, and I would not deny antidepressants for myself, when they have lifted up my life so much....neither would I want to discourage anyone, who might find the Sub the only tool they'd ever been offererd to jump-start their recovery.

It's up to all of us to read all the pros and the cons of this drug--like every other drug we put into our body. But I would just ask, Pillz, that you accept that, for many of us, recovery takes alternative means. And I do not think we want to be "pitied" for emotional dishonesty, when we choose these tools to get our lives back. Sometimes we are all TOO honest in confronting the reality of the turn our lives have taken.

Anyway, welcome to the Board. :) If you'd like to check more views on the topic of Sub, you can go to the archives here and find all sorts of thinking on this subject.

Lynn :wave:

Ho Goddessgrl65 (strange name??) - I get a real feeling of honesty from your post. Come on girl - stop talking about it and get on with it? Join us three in finally quitting - I just know you can do it. YOu are so low now - what is holding you back? Fear? Dont give way to fear or you will just never get there. This is it - the only time you have on earth - grab it - dont squander it. I dont listen to all those excuses - they are not valid. Just DO it. If you wait till the time is right then it never will be. But - its your life to waste if thats what you chose.

Twinlynn (are you a twin?) - I am afraid that your post made me white with anger. I am diabetic and have suffered from this disease since birth. Every day of life - several times a day, I have to inject my insulin. HAVE TO! No choice for me. No - do or dont I take opiates. I have lymphatic problems because of those constant injections. I have lost a brother and sister to this disease. They died due to their blood vessels being in such a mess - causing aneurisms. At present I am going blind due to sugar crystals in my eyes. The doctors warn me that I may yet have to have my legs amputated. How you can so glibly compare depression and its treatment to diabetes goes beyond any intelligent thought processes. The disease of diabetes and the sugar serum levels can be measured exactly and then treated accordingly - in some cases - now do tell me how endorphins or serotonin levels are measured exactly in your brain so that a/ds or whatever can be used scientifically and exactly to balance out the "chemicals"????? as you seem to suggest? Absolutely absurd, non informed, non scientific, crass populist comments. Its one so often referred to in open forums like this and it is just plain stupid. Actually makes me physically sick with frustration and anger. "We have to take our a/ds just like diabetics have to take their insulin"!!!!! God forgive you. I hope to God that you never have to stand at your sister's grave side as I have had to do with both my brother and sister.
So - I cannot take anything else you say to heart. Perhaps you are more sincere than I take from your post. But with the patronising comments you have made I consider that you really need to do some scientific and spiritual reading before commenting further. If these are your views - you have little hope of breaking free of your opiate addiction. Sobriety requires strict honesty.
Please listen to what I have to say. I dont mean to be cruel (as you have been) - but I cannot forgive what you have said.
If depression exists due to a lack of some chemical or electrical reactions in the brain then tell me what that is or those are? How you measure it/them?........If you have the answers then you will be a millionaire overnight.
I work in the medical field (research scientist) and I have never heard of such nonsense. In fact - I rather suspect that depression is something much more ethereal - more of a behavioural matter, to do with things of the spirit.................. and perhaps with even a hint of self indulgence about it? Starting perhaps with childhood experiences. After all - all human behaviour is learnt - and learned from our families/friends from the moment of our birth. We learn by immitation.
It would do you no harm to reflect on this before you attempt to treat your so called depression? Maybe the root cause lies away back in your earlier years? Deal with that and you wont need a/ds - I'll take a wager on that.

Please - everyone else on this board - realise that brain function is very largely not understood - we still do not know how nerve synapses transmit messages - and so we do not know how opiates act on these receptors - all we have at our disposal is crude models. But we do know that we have free will and can stop this destructive behaviour in which we indulge. I know its hard - very very hard - but its doable. I would urge everyone to consider this and decide to look in the mirror and get honest - brutally honest - and decide to take back our lives. There are three of us already who have decided to do this - so why not all of us? No more pretences about quick fixes from chemicals? Its all an illusion. The body is capable or the most amazing things and I - for one - want to be back in that situation where everything is possible for me to attain. Opiates, especially sub - give a totally false impression of the world. We seek somehow to exclude the real world. Why? A really complicated question. And its why this disease of addiction is recognised as a relapsing disease. Its easy enough to get off the drugs - yes? But how to stay clean poses the most difficult problem for us all. Hence the success of AA and NA and smart recovery and all the rest. We have to get to the root of our unhappiness before we stand of chance of living a sober life.
So - I must stop now - this is getting too long. If anyone is interested in speaking further about real sobriety and living a decent life after pills I would just love to talk with them.
I wish you all the luck in the world - but more than luck - I wish you the gift of recognising the truth - sheer unadulerated truth - devoid of the rosy specs of chemicals!
To life and liberty.
Pilz

MMmmmmmm....
Ouch. I try to "LIVE AND LET LIVE!!!!" This is so important for my sobriety and my peace of mind. I also know that if I don't walk in someone else shoes I can not know what they truly experiencing. Anyone attending AA meetings etc. should read the pamphlet about "other medications", I did and it really helped me forgive myself for taking prozac. I need to be tolerant and forgiving of myself and others.

I have suffered from depression since as early as 2nd grade. I did not know it then but looking back I realize that children don't normally withdraw from life and have imaginary illnesses. Prozac was a godsend for me. I was able to get into therapy, get into the program, and begin working on myself without the fear of feeling like I could not leave the house or face driving my car or even going to the doctor or a meeting.

When I had some clean/sober time I stopped the prozac. That is the first time I relapsed with pills (opiates). After my disease progressed with the opiates I got clean and stayed clean for six months with no meds. By the time my depression got unbearable it was too late for me to call for help. I was GONE... and I was out there about a year.

I found the sub gave me the window I needed to jump start my recovery. Today I have 41 days off of sub and everything else. I do take 40mg of prozac a day. With the help of the prozac I am able to work on all areas of my recovery and am gaining hope every day.

Just as no one can understand alcholism or addiction unless they have experienced it, someone who has not had clinical depression cannot imagine what it is like. It is debilitating and soooo frightening... even to a child. So many suicides are motivated by depression. It seems like a deadly illness to me. I am so grateful that there is medication today that allows me the freedom from other more harmful drugs and in turn allows me to work on myself and the underlying causes and effects of this depression.


Healing thoughts to all,
:angel: L

Pilz,

This is a issue we will have to disagree on. I know I can never understand the suffering you must go through each day, but I do understand your anger--there is primarly diabetes in our family and we have lost a family member. And, ten years ago my younger sister (not my twin...though I do have a twin) developed severe diabetes...and lives with the fear and despair that you do.

But there is also severe clinical depression in our family. And three of those who suffered from it --and could not go on with it--had their lives irrevocably changed when tricyclic antidepressants were made available to the public in the early 1970's. For those in our family who suffered from it, it was endogenous--not reactive depression. Without debating statistical chemistry....all I will say is that these lives were not felt worth living with what hit us all at a similar age and with no warning.

Even understanding some of your rage--and your argument--I just cannot feel anything but happiness for those who have been able to save or repair their lives with drugs developed to help them. Whether it is depression--or cancer--or any illness--if people can be helped and saved....I feel joy for them.

As for the subject of addiction--there is no disputing the harm and "free-will" aspects of opiates--I blame myself and myself only. But I cannot condemn those who made the wrong choice, as I did....who are trying to use this new drug "Sub"--which is indeed a "Hobson's Choice" in many ways--as a tool to end their addiction.

I wish only that those of us who made bad decisions in the past, be given a chance to start again. And I wish so much--re your own illness--which was never, ever your own choice--that science will eventually be able to help with this diabetes that has robbed both our families.

That's really all I can say. And I say it sincerely, and am sorry if my style of writing sounded "glib" or "condescending" to you. That's the very last thing I meant it to be.

I wish you the best. Lynn

Thanks, 2BClean--for saying what I can find difficult to write about. (And, peace (!) from this aging hippie, Lynn :-)

2bclean - keep truckin - we are in the same team - lets not let anything get in the way? To get off opiates/sub is our one and only goal for now. Later we will talk of staying sober - discuss those deep recesses of our minds in which many answers may lurk? I consider you a friend and a fellow pilgrim - I hope you think of me that way too? We seek the same sanctuary? Please support me as I support you? And will continue to do so until you are free of the sub. (in my books - subjugation! LOL) - I wont let go until we three are free. I promise you this. No matter how long it takes. If I am last then you are stuck with me until I find my own freedom?? I need you! We will work together until we are all finally free of these pills - mutual support cannot fail us. Please? OK?

Twin................ I dont know where to start. Can you - just for a moment - picture the scene. My family is at breakfast one special morning and my mother comments that my bro is not yet up and asks me to go and check - get the lazy so and so out of his bed! I go into his room - all is still and peaceful - snow is lying outside on the hills for it is Christmas. He is lying with his eyes closed looking so very at peace and I call his name gently. Nothing. And again. He is angelic in repose - such a handsome gentle kind face. A face in which I know every detail for I have known him his entire life. I love him with every fibre of my being. He is my best friend. I shake him.................sorry, I cant carry on - the tears stream down my face. My beloved brother has died. What passes through my mind and body cannot be put into words and I simply wont appall people in here. My world ends. The void I face, the total bleakness................. utter and complete despair............. I can do nothing other than fall to my knees in some sort of primaeval form of hopeless supplication - and you think that I dont know what depression is? Really? You simply cannot be that naive or crassly stupid. You are a twin. Imagine going into his/her bedroom tomorrow morning and finding him/her dead? How would you feel? Let me assure you that I have experienced and know at first hand what deep bleak hopeless depression is. Have no doubt. Am I resilient in the face of this black depression? You should know the answer? Of course not - it is all consuming. It is so pervasive. There is room for nothing else. He is dead! Dead! Not sick or ill or hung over or poorly or even in a diabetic coma - he is dead. As I write this I can hardly bear to read it - I can barely breathe. My wonderful, funny, mischievious, witty, engaging, talented, intelligent best friend has gone somewhere I cannot follow.
Oh yes - twin - I know what real depression is - I wonder if you do. Your answer to me above is just glib and unfeeling - trips off the tongue too easily - in the way that someone who only offers platitudes will do. From what you write I do not believe you have even the merest inkling of what this depression is. Maybe you could try to explain further - if you think you are able? Maybe of course - you really dont know? Even worse - dont care?
I quote:

Even understanding some of your rage--and your argument--I just cannot feel anything but happiness for those who have been able to save or repair their lives with drugs developed to help them. Whether it is depression--or cancer--or any illness--if people can be helped and saved....I feel joy for them

I cannot believe that anyone could be so cruel, so heartless in saying that? I feel utter despair - total and complete despair and yet you write the above? Why?

I will not go further and explain the death of my darling beloved sister. Enough.

I am so low at this point that perhaps I will have to reach out for help this night - from a stranger. Maybe there is someone in here with a smilar tale of how cruel life can be and who will understand that utter bleakness from which there seems no escape. This last exchange of posts has brought me so low. I apologise to other posters in here - I am simply trying to tell it how it is. I had never expected to see written what I have just seen.

But - what ever - twin, please offer no glib, trip off the tongue platitudes which mean absolutely nothing. They are just insulting. None of us are automatins with no feelings. We feel, hurt, cry, ache - yes - ache so bad.....................
Twin - please just leave me to my pain - frankly I cannot feel all that happiness and joy which you purport to have for strangers you have never met. Insincerity is at best worthless and at worst just plain cruel.

I have shown - I hope - with my few posts that I care very much for people struggling with opiates and especially with subutex (an esperimental drug which sticks to neurones like treacle. We are just guinea pigs). My heart goes out to each and every one of those souls. I urge them, I will struggle alongside them to break free - but I will do it with every fibre of my being - I can take the pain - it will not break me - there is such a prize at the end. For those who are fearful I would say - dont be - fear is a human feeling - a human trait which can be easily dealt with - face up to it and conquer it. Honestly once you havee made your mind up - it is not difficult. If you like the analogy - and it does look as tho there are many religious people here - take up your cross? If you are Christian then surely you can do this little thing for your King? Not much of a Christian who cant rise to the challenge?

For all those who have taken the time to respond to my pleas for help - like 2bclean, goddess (why this name may I ask?) and you others - sorry it is late and I am not in good form - thank you - you will just never know how you have helped. I am doing this for my own sake - for I have so much now to do in the society for diabetics. I must get well. My life has been changed for ever.
Just one more plea - please dont ever compare diabetes to addiction - apart from the fact it is facile and not relevant - it causes such unnecessary heartache.
Maybe Twin - you and I may one day have a meaningful conversation about addiction and sub. But I fear not today.
To life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? In the true meaning of that phrase.
I mean no one any offence. I hope we all struggle against this addiction and come out the other side ready to do battle on behalf of less fortunate addicts?

Honestly, methadone, (which is not much different from sub), just allowed me the hours of day back instead of chasing my next high. By no means was I able to see what life drug free had once been at all. By no means did I get a glimpse of what "normal" felt like by being on a maintance program. I was able to relax and do more normal activities again. As far as depression goes, opiates throw you off up there, and for most (not all), there is a period of depression that comes after the opiates. It comes and with time it also goes away. The crazy thing is that when alot of us are in the grips of our addictions all it ever seems to be is the next plan to avoid this or that or to try to find the easier softer way. For years all i did was come up with the next ellaborate plan to get off drugs the easier way. In the end , for me, I found that I had to buck up and realize that there was no better time than the present. I also did not care what it took or what unpleasant things my body had to go through to get to the other side. I never thought the day would come for me where I would ever not want to get high anymore. I don't know how but it did. When that day came it was so much more than just not wanting to get high anymore. It was about my whole being ,and every decision i had made , and wanting a whole new me and a whole new life. And i am not talking about just the drugs. I am talking about my lost heart and soul. I had to search and find it and build on it. I went from living in a broke down truck at the end, no one wanting anything to do with me, stealing, had lied so long that i forgot the truth myself,ect.... to starting from scratch and building myself into a responsible, loving, caring, brutally honest, reliable friend and family member ect... you are what you do on a daily basis. i am that but i used to be a lying and coniving junkie. that is no longer my title