Is there any other treatments at all for BPPV apart from epley and brandt daroff.

I have had BPPV for the last couple of years and have had 24/7 dizziness at some level. I usually have 1-3 BPPV attack per week.....yes per week!! However, they are usually less severe the more frequent they are. However, still very unpleasant.

However, before last week I went a whole month without an attack and the other usual dizziness symptoms improved in leaps and bounds. To the point of being very noticable improvements. However this week I have had 3 attacks. The first one being the worst in a really long time.....I already do the MEP as soon as I get a bppv attack and do the brandt daroff daily.

Any suggestions??

Is there any other treatments at all for BPPV apart from epley and brandt daroff.

I have had BPPV for the last couple of years and have had 24/7 dizziness at some level. I usually have 1-3 BPPV attack per week.....yes per week!! However, they are usually less severe the more frequent they are. However, still very unpleasant.

However, before last week I went a whole month without an attack and the other usual dizziness symptoms improved in leaps and bounds. To the point of being very noticable improvements. However this week I have had 3 attacks. The first one being the worst in a really long time.....I already do the MEP as soon as I get a bppv attack and do the brandt daroff daily.

Any suggestions??

Hi Star

...."have 1-3 BPPV attack per week".....

By attack do you mean "spinning vertigo"????

Is the BPPV occurring on only one side & do you know which??

....." went a whole month without an attack and the other usual dizziness symptoms improved in leaps and bounds"....

That would indicate---"rocks out" and compensation taking place....as it should....during that compensation period did you continue to do the B/D???

:cool:

Hi Subs

By attacks I mean spinning vertigo. Most of my bppv attacks just have spinning vertigo when my head is tilted to the right but increased dizziness and distortion in all positions.

BPPV affects my right side, always only my right.

During the good month I continued doing the b/d and all other exercises I had been doing (vest rehab exercises). I do 2-3 hours of exercises per day.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Leigh

Hi Subs

By attacks I mean spinning vertigo. Most of my bppv attacks just have spinning vertigo when my head is tilted to the right but increased dizziness and distortion in all positions.

BPPV affects my right side, always only my right.

During the good month I continued doing the b/d and all other exercises I had been doing (vest rehab exercises). I do 2-3 hours of exercises per day.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Leigh

Leigh

Understand

My idea--- would--- be to drop the B/D---don't think it is helping you---and maybe putting the rocks back---since your sure its your "right side--only"----move exclusively to the "MEP"---for the "right side" only.

Assume you printed the instructions and downloaded the video(#2) from the web site.

Need to do them as the instructions direct----don't vary at all----and as it says---three sets---(3 maneuvers each set)----without---a spin---stop---or after five to six days with no success----no VRT's---during that period---rocks got to get out(step # 1)----after that your ready for VRT(Step #2)---and compensation.

....."I mean spinning vertigo. Most of my bppv attacks just have spinning vertigo when my head is tilted to the right.."....

And does that vertigo have a "latency & fatiguing" to it---usually on the first and second maneuver of the set????----that is a key/extremely important indicator---can not overstate---it's importance!!!!!!!!

...."but increased dizziness and distortion in all positions."......

The "dizziness" is associated with the lack of compensation---the VRT's are designed to deal with that----after the rocks are out & stay out---compensation---full---can not take place---until the rocks are out---and stay out.......

...."distortion"-?????????

I think your close---obviously the rocks were out---during your good month---some how they went back in---or fragments/splinters---drifted in---I strongly suspect---that---the B/D + MEP + 2- 3 hours of VRT is causing it---think---need to slow it down & focus on getting the rocks out---with the MEP(right side only)...

If it was me---I would try that.....---with a month of "good"---think if the rocks stay out---compensation will/can take place--and your out of there!!



:cool:

Subs,
When you were going through this did you find that not sleeping on your right side (affected side) was helpful? I have been avoiding sleeping on that side and either sleep on my back or on my left side.
Still doing my MEPs religiously, have had some great days but am back in the dumpster (hopefully this is just temporary), really working through the vrt and doing lots of balance exercises. My balance is good but I have set some high goals.
Thanks for staying on these threads,

Subs,
When you were going through this did you find that not sleeping on your right side (affected side) was helpful? I have been avoiding sleeping on that side and either sleep on my back or on my left side.
Still doing my MEPs religiously, have had some great days but am back in the dumpster (hopefully this is just temporary), really working through the vrt and doing lots of balance exercises. My balance is good but I have set some high goals.
Thanks for staying on these threads,

Hi Firechick

Yep & Yep & Yep and a double Yep---never ever would I sleep on the right side---took about 1 1/2 years---to feel like I even---wanted to try---and still---do not do it often---now----even when I get no---unusual feeling---at all---when I do it----I did it a couple of times---before I fully compensated---and---felt strange---the next couple of days----figured---the brain/body---was giving me a message---and had nothing to prove by doing it---so I skipped it----figured when the time came---the brain/body---would let me know.

...."some great days but am back in the dumpster (hopefully this is just temporary)".....

Yep it temporary---it is just the brain's equilibrium center working the the various equations---for the repertoire of movements----for me it was two steps forward---one back----every week in the beginning---then two/one---every couple of weeks---then three/one every week----then three/one every three weeks, etc... until an occasional "blip" once a month---then once every three, etc....

----until it just recedes from view in the rear view mirror...


----just takes time......can not be rushed----all of those pesky little neurons---got to reestablish/establish the clusters---which guide your movements---except for the last nano-second---which is done by the brain in real time---so as to adjust for force and speed, etc...of the movement

---even with your DNA containing more then a "billion" piece of information---to guide the cluster development---from inception---it still required each sensory neuron(cell) that made up the neuron cluster---this junk disrupted---time---to find/connect---with other cells that finally made up the neuron clusters---that contained---the preplanned movement templates---which allowed you to---move about---effortlessly---with almost no thought

---given that building the brain's neural network---a trillion(10 to the 12th) neurons connected by 10 quadrillion(10 to the 16th) synapses---was a daunting task---to begin with---putting a part of it back together---is prob not a "piece of cake"

---and whatever---the number of neuron connections involved---with balance and movement system may be --they(neurons) have to find each other---to connect---and---that can only be accomplished---when they---are firing at the same time---then---they connect---together---and ignore the information---all other neurons---that do not fire at the same instant in time---and the cluster(s) start to form

---that is why you will hear the neuro-scientist

---say "neurons that fire together wire together"---wallah---the cluster begins---it started in the womb

----kind of surprised---when people---think---you can rush the reestablishment of what this junk screwed up---quickly----the only difference---in time to fully recover---for anybody---is---how much of the cluster(connections) got "hosed" ---given that the "sensor" is healed/corrected,i.e., "rocks out" in the case of BPPV.

Conceptually---its deceptively simple---"sensor(s) & processor(s)"---in reality---it can be a nightmare---for all(patients & Doc's)---when one or both---get "hosed"

:cool:

Odd...I sleep on any side...yes, I get dizzy when I'm in an attack (meaning when symptoms first appear till I have no symptoms -- back to normal)..but lay quiet, it passes then I go to sleep.



My perspective....Star, you're waaaay overdoing the exercises. Just go about your daily functioning without babying too much.
I agree with Subs...stop the B-D exercises.

Too much stimulation I believe will actually hinder your progress rather than help.

Maybe I've just had it too long. It comes, it goes. Treat it, but function as normally as possible.

quincy

thanks for the confirmation Subs,

When I think back to my blip last weekend, I woke up on my right side (which I had been avoiding for months) and there you have it...a funny day with some symptoms.

Your scientific explanation was fascinating, and yes as conceptually simple as it sounds, asking humans to be patient and let the process work its way through is asking a lot. As a species we are impatient and want the fix yesturday (myself included!). Sometimes reading it as you present the information makes it easier to understand and for me, be more patient.

"figured when the time came---the brain/body---would let me know." I think this quote sums up a lot. We need to slow down sometimes and really listen to our bodies and what our symptoms are telling us. That gut instinct is there to protect us and we need to listen to it.

Have a great weekend, off for my 24hour shift (Luckily I only have one a month)

Hi Subs

So just to make sure I am understanding correctly....you are saying to do the MEP 3 times a day until there is no dizziness provoked or for 6/7 days (whichever comes first). Is that correct. Currently I do it 2-3 times a day after an attack but don't continue it when I am crystal free.

When you say 'latency and fatiguing' nature I am a little unsure. When I have a medium level attack if I stay in a position for 1-2 minutes the spinning tends to slowly settle but nowhere near normal. But when it is a bad attack the spinning settles only slightly and usually I find it really hard to stay in the provoking positions for very long at all. When I am in this state I get a timer while doing MEP and make sure I stay at least 2 minutes in each head position. When it is a medium level attack I usually wait 30 seconds after the spinning subsides. Im interested as to why the latency/ fatiguing is such an important factor - please expand on this!

''...."distortion"-?????????''

By distortion I mean I find it hard to keep my visual world accurate. Things move and jump. But I have been doing a fair bit of visual therapy and this has improved heaps.

The 2-3 hours of exercises per day includes 2 sets of vrt exercises and walking. Personally I don't feel as though I am overdoing the exercises because I have been doing the same amount of exercises for over a year and have improved hugely since doing them. It isn't like it is a recent change which has triggered the bppv. The main problem I have now is the bppv.

Thanks!!

Hi Star803
I believe the phrase "latency" is when you go into a vertigo inducing position it will take a few seconds before the spinning begins. Near the end of my repositioning (after the second day of doing the MEP) I could sometimes wait up to 20 seconds in the first position of the MEP before the spin would happen. "Fatiguing" means if you repeat the same head position that induces the vertigo after two, three or four trys the vertigo stops and you can't bring it on at all in that position. This happens sooner and sooner as you get those nasty little rocks out of the way.
Subs can fill in the missing elements from my explanation but this is how I understand those characteristics.
Hope it helps and you are finding some relief in the MEP. IT works wonders for me!
Good luck

Hi Star

Firechick's got a good explanation posted---couple of items to amplify her--post...

..."MEP 3 times a day"

---MEP 3 times --but spaced out over a 24 hour period...not 8, 12, etc...24 hour period as the instructions say....

..."until there is no dizziness "....

The MEP is to get the rocks out---not to correct "dizziness"---that is a function of the VRT's

---On the occasion when you do a MEP and you get no vertigo in any maneuver of the that MEP set at all...then you continue to do three more MEP sets(containing three maneuvers in each set)---if on completion of the third MEP set---still no vertigo---then rocks are out---for now---of course depending on what you do after that + time---could slip back in.

...."or for 6/7 days"....

If after doing the MEP's---three MEP sets per 24 hour period--for 6/7 days----you still are getting vertigo----the MEP is/has not worked.....


..."When you say 'latency and fatiguing' nature I am a little unsure"....


In "typical BPPV" (not all)

..."Vertigo and a typical twisting type of nystagmus ensue after a latency of two seconds and last about ten seconds(fatigue)...."

above from Northwestern Univ Dr Hain...web site....

It is important---because---it is one of the best symptoms---available to Doc's to Dx---that your prob is really BPPV---and not Lab or VN---although Lab/VN--can cause BPPV....and the best way for you to know when the rocks are out....

It is movements of the ear rocks in the canal that causes the latency and then fatiguing.....the fluid in the canal is thought to have the consistency of soft soap/dishwasher soap, etc...---it does not have the consistency of water....and the rocks are thought to be suspended in the fluid..

The rocks "a body at rest" will tend to remain at rest unless acted on by a force "positioning of your head"---but they don't move---immediately---because of their mass---takes---a build up---of force---to overcome--the mass---inertia----wallah "latency"

The rocks "now a body in motion" will stay in motion---until---the loss of the force---that got them started---or are acted on by an equal and opposite force---since your head is no longer being positioned the force to keep them in motion is no longer there---"fatigue"...

So when you do the MEP---turning your head to the right---and---laying down---on that side--provides the force that---(if there in the canal)--starts the rocks movement---and you get spin/vertigo---because you have a mass---on one side of your head---in the canal---and not in the other side canal---so the brain gets two conflicting vestibular inputs and says---I'm out of here

-------however after---you---lay there---counting for 30 seconds...etc...---or until the spinning stops(indicating that the rocks are not moving in the canal any more)----i.e., the force that set the rocks in motion---starts to dissipate---since---your no longer positioning your head-------their still in there just not moving---the spinning stops---because with no rock movement---the signals from the right and left vestibular system--are equal/balanced for your head's spacial position---in respect to "gravity"---...but you still feel--wierd...since the rock...is still in there on---the right side---so the brain--is till trying to figure out what the heck is going on...

....."The main problem I have now is the bppv".....

What did you have before...???

Healthy to remember that the "latency & fatiguing" is for typical BPPV---there are other kinds---as you can see---from the info archive "BPPV" post..

:cool:

Subs......I'd like to pipe in here and give my understanding -- how it was explained to me by my doctors -- about latency and fatiguing. Does this make sense to info you've researched?

the brain's perception is what causes the latency and fatiguing. latency...the brain's waiting for the signals from the canals (ALL the canals), but hey, one's missing....vertigo (and/or other symptoms) happens. When the same position is repeated -- repeated...the brain recognises it as more "normal" and lessens the overcompensation. Fatiguing doesn't mean that the symptoms will necessarily stop...it does mean that the symptoms will lessen in intensity (a classic of BPPV).

It's not the otoliths that cause it, it's the brain's perception of no/changed information from whatever canal is affected by the otoliths (crystals).

The position of where they are in the canal or on the cupula affects the message to the brain and in turn it creates the physical consequences of vertigo, nystagmus, dizziness, nausea, stilted walking, veering off to one side..etc.

The rocks don't cause the sensations, it's the brains perception and interpretation of the message received and how it compensates for it. That's why for BPPV, surgery to cut the nerve from the ear to the brain is suggested.

I still think that someone needs to invent a kind of skin or netting that can be put over the otoliths to keep them from floating around. Seems good in theory tho.

Hope tomorrow is a feeling well day.

quincy

I am not sure which explanation is correct, (I'll buy both/either of them) all I know is that both latency and fatiquing are classic BPPV. Although I don't get the spinning anymore, I still, on occasion get a very weird feeling when I lay down too fast, like at the gym when I am on a mat ready to so some sit-ups. I get this very heady feeling like the old spin is coming on, but it doesn't. It too passes, does that mean there are still fragments of a rock in the canal, or is that a compensation thing?

...Low potassium will trigger BPPV attacks and I also suspect MSG for my latest episode. Any of the electrolytes may cause the same thing so Sodium, calcium, magnesium, and potassium may all need to be kept in correct levels.
...I have seen drastic improvement in my overall dizziness and vertigo (I also have Menieres) by eliminating food allergies and going on a diet of low to medium glycemic foods.
Rick

Hallo... just wanted to say I was doing a search for Modified Epley Manoeuvre on that famous search engine that starts with G lol (I want to start doing it and I'm not TOTALLY sure how to do it) and lots of good info on BPPV came up (not just to do with Epley).

It is in the Information Archives---the first post on this board---Under:

Self-treatment of BPPV - Modified Epley Procedure (MEP) - A Radtke et al

Article - http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/full/63/1/150
Video - http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/full/63/1/150/DC1

Aww thank you!! I knew I'd seen it somewhere LOL!!
You're great!!!

*hug*

Was searching the web to look for a connection between electolyte imbalance and BPPV and found this which explains a latency and fatigue theory. So far the only connection between electrolytes and inner ear are in discussions on Meniere's disease. But I'm still searching!

"More recent studies by *** demonstrated free-floating
particles in the posterior semicircular canal. These particles may, over
a period of seconds, build up a hydrodynamic drag on the affected cupula,
resulting posterior canal excitation. As these particles become
dispersed, the hydrodynamic drag is reduced, and the vertigo subsides. If
this theory is true, it helps explain the findings of "latent onset" and
"fatigue", characteristic of the vertigo in patients with BPPV."

Was searching the web to look for a connection between electolyte imbalance and BPPV and found this which explains a latency and fatigue theory. So far the only connection between electrolytes and inner ear are in discussions on Meniere's disease. But I'm still searching!
"
...I don't know if I ever found any info directly correlating bppv and electrolytes. What I found was I fit the scenario of having low ptassium (excessive sweating 8+ hours of working in 90+F weather) and only drinking water and not replacing the electrolytes. I read that diabetics get sudden hypokalamea (low potassium) when they take their insulin when their serum potassium is low. This is caused by the insulin causing the potassium to go from extracellular to intracellular. It's a big concern with diabetics on diuretics as they're aty risk for low potassium. Since diuretics is common for Meniere's they too are at risk if diabetic but large amount of insulin can also be seen in those of us with Metabolic syndrom. Since the scenario was fitting my situation, I then started supplementing my diet with potassium and the episodes deminished. let me know if you find anythng specific.
Rick

After an extensive search on the web I could only find the following which could possibly be an explanation for electrolyte balance and it's relation to BPPV:
" In vivo (whatever that it) the octonia are bathed in endolymphatic fluid that has a high concentration of potassium and a low concentration of sodium"
Any possibilities there?

Subs......I'd like to pipe in here and give my understanding -- how it was explained to me by my doctors -- about latency and fatiguing. Does this make sense to info you've researched?

the brain's perception is what causes the latency and fatiguing. latency...the brain's waiting for the signals from the canals (ALL the canals), but hey, one's missing....vertigo (and/or other symptoms) happens. When the same position is repeated -- repeated...the brain recognises it as more "normal" and lessens the overcompensation. Fatiguing doesn't mean that the symptoms will necessarily stop...it does mean that the symptoms will lessen in intensity (a classic of BPPV).

It's not the otoliths that cause it, it's the brain's perception of no/changed information from whatever canal is affected by the otoliths (crystals).

The position of where they are in the canal or on the cupula affects the message to the brain and in turn it creates the physical consequences of vertigo, nystagmus, dizziness, nausea, stilted walking, veering off to one side..etc.

The rocks don't cause the sensations, it's the brains perception and interpretation of the message received and how it compensates for it. That's why for BPPV, surgery to cut the nerve from the ear to the brain is suggested.

I still think that someone needs to invent a kind of skin or netting that can be put over the otoliths to keep them from floating around. Seems good in theory tho.

Hope tomorrow is a feeling well day.

quincy

Hi Quincy

...."Does this make sense to info you've researched?".....

Nope---it does not---not even close---to the research I have seen or my understanding of what I have read: (from the NIH web site)

...."otoconia (calcium particles) that are shed from the utricular macula (which responds to linear motion) and migrate to the posterior semi-circular canal (which responds to rotational motion). These loose otoconia stimulate the nerve endings in the balance canals and send a message to your brain that you are moving in a direction you really are not.".....


..." When the otoconia particles have dislodged, they either settle into the sensory organ cupula of the posterior semi-circular canal (cupulolithiasis) or they may continue to free float within the endolymph of the posterior canal itself (canalithiasis). In either case, their presence sends misinformation about your position with respects to head movement, causing vertigo."......

In all cases it is not the absence of a signal---but the presence of a "corrupted signal", i.e., from the canal with the rocks---being sent to the brain.

Firechick outlines in her post---what the majority of researchers believe is the most likely cause for the "latency & fatigue"

That---is the explanation that makes the most sense---to me.

...."That's why for BPPV, surgery to cut the nerve from the ear to the brain is suggested."....

As for that procedure---which is thought to be quite "radical"---and only a last resort---in the states---it removes any signal(s) to the brain from the bad vestibular system---since it severs---that part of the eighth nerve---providing---the vestibular signal--from the bad ear...

Prior to Nov 02---I could care less---how this crap worked---and I still don't----what I care about is understanding it---well enough---to articulate---to the medical researchers/clinical types---when I have to----what my symptoms are in---terms---they---understand

----and----use the knowledge of how it works---to---judge---if what they are telling me makes sense.....in other words

---don't tell me what you can do---tell me what you can't do---I can figure it out from there...

Have you been to London---and seen L/L---for this???

:cool:

After an extensive search on the web I could only find the following which could possibly be an explanation for electrolyte balance and it's relation to BPPV:
" In vivo (whatever that it) the octonia are bathed in endolymphatic fluid that has a high concentration of potassium and a low concentration of sodium"
Any possibilities there?
...The fact that Endolymph is 99% potassium and perilymph is almost all sodium is what got me to thinking it was an electrolyte thing since I knew from researching on "excessive sweating" "excersize" etc. Since the attacks I had came on rather suddenly I then searched on "potassium" (and the other electrolytes) and came across the spontaneous hypokalamea that can happen with high insulin levels. So I had a situation where my electrolytes would be low due to exersize instead of diuretics and I had a scenerio where I would have high insulin levels due to hyperinsulinemia(metabolic syndrom) instead of injecting insulin.

...While I didn't have the normal symptoms of hypokalemia, the solution is simply to add potassium to the diet so I just started making sure that I had all my electrolytes supplimented when sweat a lot. Eat bananas, take magnesium and calcium suppiments and I get plenty of salt in my diet. And since doing this and not cheating on my diet, I haven't had any more of these severe BPPV attacks. I had a couple of minor BPPV attacks and there seems to be a connection to MSG, but I'm still researching that one.
Rick

Hi Subs

Thanks for your reply.....you are really great at explaining things.

About the latency and fatigue features of BPPV I definately do get that.......however, when I have had a really bad attack the latency part seems to never come. But maybe that is because I am soooo dizzy that I can't cope staying in the offending position too long. I normally wait 2 mins and then move.

When I said BPPV is the main problem now. This all started with labrynthitis which I think caused the BPPV. Its all been going on almost 3 years now. But the main problem is the BPPV. The labs has compensation quite a bit (not 100% though probably around 70%) but the BPPV has got worse rather than better.

I am going to try not sleeping on my right side as well since I get quite a lot of attacks when I roll onto my right side while sleeping but I wanted to ask.......is this likely to help?

Thanks again!!

Hi Subs

Thanks for your reply.....you are really great at explaining things.

About the latency and fatigue features of BPPV I definately do get that.......however, when I have had a really bad attack the latency part seems to never come. But maybe that is because I am soooo dizzy that I can't cope staying in the offending position too long. I normally wait 2 mins and then move.

When I said BPPV is the main problem now. This all started with labrynthitis which I think caused the BPPV. Its all been going on almost 3 years now. But the main problem is the BPPV. The labs has compensation quite a bit (not 100% though probably around 70%) but the BPPV has got worse rather than better.

I am going to try not sleeping on my right side as well since I get quite a lot of attacks when I roll onto my right side while sleeping but I wanted to ask.......is this likely to help?

Thanks again!!

Hi Star

Missed your post...did not see it---until now...

When you say:

..."I normally wait 2 mins and then move."....

Not sure---when your doing the/a MEP & do you mean on the first maneuver of that MEP set???

Yep---same here---Lab---to BPPV---right side...not unusual---first you get the "infection" of the balance nerve---then that weakens---the inner ear structure---the "infection" gets better---but---the rock(s) get into the canal....the idea is---now that the "infection" (known as Lab) is gone---to get the rocks out/desolved....the brain can not fully(100%) compensate until their out/gone/dissolved/history/bye bye---whatever....


....."I am going to try not sleeping on my right side as well since I get quite a lot of attacks when I roll onto my right side while sleeping but I wanted to ask.......is this likely to help?".....

Yes it is likely to help---it did for me...

What I did was built a barrier of pillows---on one side and pushed the bed against the wall on the other---so that I was forced to sleep on my left side---since if I tried to turn over to the right side---I could not---without---a lot of effort---which usually woke me up---and I stopped trying....

So my routine was----until I got to a full 100%---was MEP's(3 over 24 hours)---sleep---in lounge chair---at 45deg---48 hours---then bed---continue MEP's/VRT's---when no "spin" on any MEP Set for 3 Sets over 24 hrs---then stopped MEP's---continued VRT's---if felt---while I was moving around---that I was going to "spin"---resumed MEP's---usually called it---correctly---since on the first MEP--after I resumed---first maneuver---got a "spin" after---about 3-10 sec---none on any maneuver of that MEP set---after that---continued MEP's until----no "Spin" in any MEP Set for 24 hours...occassionaly---would go back to the chair---at 45deg---if I thought the rocks were coming out at night---especially if my---bed arrangement---did not work,i.e., somehow I managed to get on my right side....did not happen to often---but it did happen.....

Not getting the "2 min" statement......???????


:cool:

Subs

Sorry about being confusing!!

What I meant was that when doing the MEP my vestibular physiotherapist said to remain for 2 minutes in each position. So usually when doing the MEP I will wait until the dizziness subsides and then wait another 20 seconds but on a really bad attack the spinning doesnt entirely stops (or fatigues) it does slow though. In this situation I wait 2 minutes before moving into the next position.

I hope that makes sense!

Oh and thanks heaps for writing your routine down.....thats really helpful....Thanks!!!

Hey Subs
I am very interested to hear what your advice is going to be for Star, and while you are answereing that one, I possibly have another question for you somewhat related.
I have been doing okay lately, kind of holding my own, nothing great but not too bad either. I have been doing lots of gardening and cleaning on my time off and have been bending, moving etc. I felt a little odd this afternoon so I went upstairs to do the MEP to see how things were looking. When I lay down in the first position, and look off at a point in a distance (say 15ft away) I have trouble focusing on that spot and my eyes jump around a little. I can't call it vertigo, but it still isn't right. If however I look at a watch 6-12inches away from my eyes, everything looks right. Any ideas what this could be?
Very interested to see your routine while recovering from this monster. How many times did you have to redo the MEP after your initial attack? Did it typically recurr after a specific event and did these events slowly spread out in time?
Thanks for all of your input...thought about a new profession???

Hi Firechick

....."interested to hear what your advice is going to be for Star, and while you are answereing that one"....

I don't see a question in Star's latest post??? What am I missing??


..."look off at a point in a distance (say 15ft away) I have trouble focusing on that spot and my eyes jump around a little".......

If I understand this junk---correctly---it sounds like:

Oscillopsia

Objects appear to jiggle, blur, or move around when you move your head, or, when you sit still.

It is caused either by a loss of the vestibulo-ocular reflex or by involuntary eye movements (spontaneous or positional nystagmus)--- caused by the damage to the inner ear

...."look at a watch 6-12inches away from my eyes, everything looks right"....

The nystagmus---is being overcome with fixation----since your so close to the object...

Not unusual---goes away---with compensation/VRT/Visual VRT's/time etc...Do you wear glasses??????? If so---for what reason???????


..."How many times did you have to redo the MEP after your initial attack?"....

During the 13/14 of recovery(to a solid 100%)---prob on the order of 35 to 40 times---but---the MEP---was not available until the last part of the recovery period---when Scott found it---I did it---about 10 to 15 times--toward the end of the recovery period----before that did the B/D.....

...."Did it typically recurr after a specific event"....

Absolutely---new VRT movement----working under car----walking at night---etc.....

..."did these events slowly spread out in time?".....

Yep---as I neared the 100% compensation point---month 14---maybe one a month---depending on how wild the movement(s)----then---for the next 12 months---maybe once/twice----during the last 12 months----nothing!!

However, still do a MEP set---if I even feel---like it may happen---never has---but.....also continue to do VRT's---daily---walk---21 mi---day---7 night..etc....

So far---for the past year or more---nothing---but---all the medical research highlights---that it tends to return---for those over 50 and the more you are over 50 the more likely---that it will happen---again.....

:cool:

The nystagmus---is being overcome with fixation----since your so close to the object...

Hi Subs,

That's an interesting point and one I hadn't thought about. I typically could not look at a point in the distance without he oscillopsia but would notice things were much better up close. These days though, nothing moves in the distance either unless I am really tired....even then it is hard to notice.

I doubt you'll be hit with a second BPPV wave with all the precautions you're taking. Sounds like the head monster has given up on trying to make your life miserable - you've whipped it's sorry backside!

Scott :cool:

HI Subs
Thanks for that! Sorry about the confusion early in my post, came out all wrong. In any case, very interesting stuff.
I have done a broader search on the Oscillopsia, and sound exactly like what I am experiencing. I was concerned it was a form of nystagmus brought on by more of those pesky rocks...I find when I am tired the vision changes are more noted and often move in coordination with my heart beat.
As far as vision goes I have always had 20/20, that is until this past winter. My husband commented that my face looked "cross" and I was squinting all the time. I had my eyes checked and I have just got my first pair of reading glasses about 2 months ago. I am not very good at wearing them yet, keep losing them. I am also just about ready for glasses for distance but the prescription would be very weak at this point and was advised to wait until it gets worse. Interestingly, while having my eyes checked I commented that I have a lot of "floaters" and it was a marked increase in the past few months. I am seeing a specialist for a follow up on that this Wednesday. I really notice this when I am in bright light, especially skiing on white snow. I am not yet 40, but my eyes are a little ahead of their time I guess!
Am feeling like this thing is on track as far as the way you described it, although I have times when I feel like I am going to start to spin, I have yet to have any vertigo while performing the MEP which I am looking at as a good sign.
Your information is always well received and bang on each time, thank you (again)!!! :)

Hi Firechick

Just a quick comment on Oscillopsia. I also get this and it has been one of my main symptoms over the years. It definately gets better with vrt and visual therapy but I do find that when I have a bad patch, the oscillopsia gets heaps worse again! Also i can stabilise my vision through looking at close objects and the oscillopsia is most noticable with long distance.

thanks for the confirmation Subs,

When I think back to my blip last weekend, I woke up on my right side (which I had been avoiding for months) and there you have it...a funny day with some symptoms.

Your scientific explanation was fascinating, and yes as conceptually simple as it sounds, asking humans to be patient and let the process work its way through is asking a lot. As a species we are impatient and want the fix yesturday (myself included!). Sometimes reading it as you present the information makes it easier to understand and for me, be more patient.

"figured when the time came---the brain/body---would let me know." I think this quote sums up a lot. We need to slow down sometimes and really listen to our bodies and what our symptoms are telling us. That gut instinct is there to protect us and we need to listen to it.

Have a great weekend, off for my 24hour shift (Luckily I only have one a month)

Hi Firechick,

How are you feeling?

When you woke up on your right side, and you had a blip... did you have another vertigo attack?

I hope that you're doing better...

I'm ok...

stay warm,

maryanne-k

Hi Firechick

....."interested to hear what your advice is going to be for Star, and while you are answereing that one"....

I don't see a question in Star's latest post??? What am I missing??


..."look off at a point in a distance (say 15ft away) I have trouble focusing on that spot and my eyes jump around a little".......

If I understand this junk---correctly---it sounds like:

Oscillopsia

Objects appear to jiggle, blur, or move around when you move your head, or, when you sit still.

It is caused either by a loss of the vestibulo-ocular reflex or by involuntary eye movements (spontaneous or positional nystagmus)--- caused by the damage to the inner ear

...."look at a watch 6-12inches away from my eyes, everything looks right"....

The nystagmus---is being overcome with fixation----since your so close to the object...

Not unusual---goes away---with compensation/VRT/Visual VRT's/time etc...Do you wear glasses??????? If so---for what reason???????


..."How many times did you have to redo the MEP after your initial attack?"....

During the 13/14 of recovery(to a solid 100%)---prob on the order of 35 to 40 times---but---the MEP---was not available until the last part of the recovery period---when Scott found it---I did it---about 10 to 15 times--toward the end of the recovery period----before that did the B/D.....

...."Did it typically recurr after a specific event"....

Absolutely---new VRT movement----working under car----walking at night---etc.....

..."did these events slowly spread out in time?".....

Yep---as I neared the 100% compensation point---month 14---maybe one a month---depending on how wild the movement(s)----then---for the next 12 months---maybe once/twice----during the last 12 months----nothing!!

However, still do a MEP set---if I even feel---like it may happen---never has---but.....also continue to do VRT's---daily---walk---21 mi---day---7 night..etc....

So far---for the past year or more---nothing---but---all the medical research highlights---that it tends to return---for those over 50 and the more you are over 50 the more likely---that it will happen---again.....

:cool:

Hi Subs,

How are you?

It's getting so chilly... keep warm...

How long have you had bppv?

So you've had many episodes of vertigo?

Since your last vertigo attack... how long has it been?

thanks,
maryanne-k

Hi Subs,

How are you?

It's getting so chilly... keep warm...

How long have you had bppv?

So you've had many episodes of vertigo?

Since your last vertigo attack... how long has it been?

thanks,
maryanne-k

Hi Maryanne

I'm fine---thanks---yep winter is setting in.

I got BPPV in Jul of 2002---actually--the first Dx by the ENT was Lab---then he changed it six weeks later to VN---then the Neurologist said BPPV---so take ur pick...bottom line---and "inner ear" infection...of some type...that weakened the inner ear structure....causing ear rocks to roll on out...no way to know for sure....

Yes in the first 11/12 months---depending on---how I positioned my head---I would get the "classic BPPV" vertigo...can't remember how many...I would do a couple of manuvers....it would go away...I would do something like work under the car.....it would come back....I would do a couple of manuvers...it would go away....I would....etc.....each time the length of time between the event got longer.....I think....

Been about 24/25 or so months.....

How about u....how are u doing???

Did u figure out what VRT is yet??

:cool:

Hi Maryanne

I'm fine---thanks---yep winter is setting in.

I got BPPV in Jul of 2002---actually--the first Dx by the ENT was Lab---then he changed it six weeks later to VN---then the Neurologist said BPPV---so take ur pick...bottom line---and "inner ear" infection...of some type...that weakened the inner ear structure....causing ear rocks to roll on out...no way to know for sure....

Yes in the first 11/12 months---depending on---how I positioned my head---I would get the "classic BPPV" vertigo...can't remember how many...I would do a couple of manuvers....it would go away...I would do something like work under the car.....it would come back....I would do a couple of manuvers...it would go away....I would....etc.....each time the length of time between the event got longer.....I think....

Been about 24/25 or so months.....

How about u....how are u doing???

Did u figure out what VRT is yet??

:cool:

Hi Subs,

I'm glad that you haven't had another vertigo attack for 24/25 months! That's great!

I'm doing good... but every now and then I feel off for a few minutes then I'm ok...

What is VRT?

I have no idea... could you explain?

I think I'm going to find more info... on places that specializes in just inner ear and dizziness...

Have you heard of a place in Washington?

I really want surgery performed...

supposedly there's a surgery to block the rocks and a Canadian surgeon performed it and it's 95% great, there's a little unbalance and hearing loss but it's all temporary and it only works for the posterior canal, since that's the most common and if the patient wants they will perform this surgery...

So... I'm really considering...

What do you think?

Yes... it's getting really cold... keep warm! ^.^

thanks!
maryanne-k

Hi Subs,

I'm glad that you haven't had another vertigo attack for 24/25 months! That's great!

I'm doing good... but every now and then I feel off for a few minutes then I'm ok...

What is VRT?

I have no idea... could you explain?

I think I'm going to find more info... on places that specializes in just inner ear and dizziness...

Have you heard of a place in Washington?

I really want surgery performed...

supposedly there's a surgery to block the rocks and a Canadian surgeon performed it and it's 95% great, there's a little unbalance and hearing loss but it's all temporary and it only works for the posterior canal, since that's the most common and if the patient wants they will perform this surgery...

So... I'm really considering...

What do you think?

Yes... it's getting really cold... keep warm! ^.^

thanks!
maryanne-k

Hi Maryanne

VRT---stands for Vestibular Rehabilitation Therapy---you can read about it---at the web site contained in the "sticky" post at the top of the board look for:

Vestibular Rehabilitation - eMedicine

http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic666.htm

It is normally prescribed by ur Doc & is used to speed ur full recovery from BPPV

..."Have you heard of a place in Washington?"....

If u mean---WashDC---most would use/go to John Hopkins Univ----which is one of the best....for inner ear....If you mean Washington state---think "Tree-farmer" may know...she is out that way...

..."What do you think?"....

It is not the best idea

---since---if it did not go well & u had a problem---with ur other ear----u would prob have to use a "walker" for the rest of ur life

A "walker"---u some times see being used by people---a lot of elderly---have to use them--for getting around---since there is no balance capability left---i.e., both vestibular systems---"shot".....it is also used for other people/purpose--to help people get around....

A better plan might be---to do---VRT's---which help the brain overcome---any balance difficulties....

U can read about the operation ur talking about in the Information Archive post(sticky) at the top of the board.....

:cool:

Hi Maryanne

VRT---stands for Vestibular Rehabilitation Therapy---you can read about it---at the web site contained in the "sticky" post at the top of the board look for:

Vestibular Rehabilitation - eMedicine

http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic666.htm

It is normally prescribed by ur Doc & is used to speed ur full recovery from BPPV

..."Have you heard of a place in Washington?"....

If u mean---WashDC---most would use/go to John Hopkins Univ----which is one of the best....for inner ear....If you mean Washington state---think "Tree-farmer" may know...she is out that way...

..."What do you think?"....

It is not the best idea

---since---if it did not go well & u had a problem---with ur other ear----u would prob have to use a "walker" for the rest of ur life

A "walker"---u some times see being used by people---a lot of elderly---have to use them--for getting around---since there is no balance capability left---i.e., both vestibular systems---"shot".....it is also used for other people/purpose--to help people get around....

A better plan might be---to do---VRT's---which help the brain overcome---any balance difficulties....

U can read about the operation ur talking about in the Information Archive post(sticky) at the top of the board.....

:cool:

Hi Subs,

Thanks for the information!

I didn't know that the surgery could be so...

The doctors made it sound like it's nothing...

I wonder why my doctor didn't give me any VRT to do...

Thanks so much!

I'm doing much better... glad that you're doing great too!

Take care and keep warm! ^.^

maryanne-k

All I can say is Thank You All or should I say Y'all. :wave:
I was given this board's address and have been glued to it all afternoon. I've had 2 horrible vertigo attacks and they were both years ago but I've been plagued with BPPV since. The ENT I was going to for sinus problems basically told me he didn't believe in BPPV....needless to say I don't see him any longer. I had a chiropractor who thought a nerve was damaged when I was attacked years before when a guy tried to strangle me. Needless to say, I'll never have my "neck" adjusted again. I had a headache for 2 days.

I've just kinda accepted the fact I can't lay on my right side or tilt my head back & look up without expecting an episode. I keep "Bonine" within arms reach at all times for it really helps on those "foggy" days. I also am hypoglycemic and have found the two are related. On my foggy days my blood sugar is too low and need to eat protein (helps me the quickest and doesn't make bs spike too high then come crashing down). But when I read today that other people have the "floaties" and the eye jumping I really started to pay attention. I've never put them all together(although I've thought there was a visual connection because I get dizzy when I'm in the shower and I close my eyes) but I will definately start a journal now and with my next eye check up I will bring all this up. The eye clinic where I go specializes in eye therapies and they did wonders with my son as a child (he was writing his "S" backwards and they corrected that in about 2 days.)

Again, I say Thanks. Although, it may be difficult to see many dr.s for a while (I live in New Orleans) I will keep my journal entries current and watch my electrolytes! As soon as my friend with the health food store is back up and open we'll sit down and have a loooooooonnnng talk.
dizzybrunette