Calli2525
05-25-2005, 08:55 PM
Does anyone know whether taking Vitamin E affects cholesterol levels?
Sponsor
HubbleRules
05-25-2005, 09:09 PM
Calli2525,
I've never read anything to indicate that it significantly affects cholesterol...
Arizona may be able to shed more light on this however.
There is a new type of vitamin-E called 'Ester-E' that claims to lower cholesterol in animal trials - but there haven't been any definitive studies yet to prove/disprove it's ability to do so in humans. I'm taking a chance and started taking it about 3 -4 weeks ago, and have another cholesterol blood test late June. I hope my numbers will have gone down, perhaps partly due to the Ester-E. I'll post my results then.
Regards,
HubbleRules
I've never read anything to indicate that it significantly affects cholesterol...
Arizona may be able to shed more light on this however.
There is a new type of vitamin-E called 'Ester-E' that claims to lower cholesterol in animal trials - but there haven't been any definitive studies yet to prove/disprove it's ability to do so in humans. I'm taking a chance and started taking it about 3 -4 weeks ago, and have another cholesterol blood test late June. I hope my numbers will have gone down, perhaps partly due to the Ester-E. I'll post my results then.
Regards,
HubbleRules
Lenin
05-25-2005, 10:20 PM
Sorry, multiple post...S L O W posting.
Lenin
05-25-2005, 10:23 PM
and yet another
Lenin
05-25-2005, 10:26 PM
WebMD seems a source that doesn;t sell vitamins too freely and they said:
Previous studies have shown conflicting results due to the low doses of Vitamin E, few study participants, limited duration of treatment and the inability to distinguish if the beneficial results were due to the Vitamin E or other lifestyle factors.
For now, there is no need to take vitamin E supplements to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease. In fact, the Heart Protection Study indicated a slight trend toward harm in those patients who took a combination of vitamin E, beta-carotene and vitamin C.
And on medicine-net:
Vitamin E Raises Bad Cholesterol Alert
Summary: Vitamin E, an antioxidant, has been found to promote the production of "bad" cholesterol, that is, the low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol.
Quote: I would "take vitamin E supplements only in circumstances where there has been proven clinical benefit, and that is not the case in cardiovascular disease." (Dr. KJ Williams, researcher)
Comment: The original article is somewhat technical. The authors conclude that: "These results establish a novel link between lipid peroxidation and oxidant stress with ApoB100 degradation via PERPP, and may be relevant to the hypolipidemic actions of dietary PUFAs, the basal regulation of ApoB100 secretion, and hyperlipidemias arising from ApoB100 overproduction. " Not real easy reading at bedtime (or any time).
Barbara K. Hecht, Ph.D.
Frederick Hecht, M.D.
I've cut my intake as a result of these recent reports from either 400 or 1000 IU every day to 400 IU 3 times a week.
Previous studies have shown conflicting results due to the low doses of Vitamin E, few study participants, limited duration of treatment and the inability to distinguish if the beneficial results were due to the Vitamin E or other lifestyle factors.
For now, there is no need to take vitamin E supplements to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease. In fact, the Heart Protection Study indicated a slight trend toward harm in those patients who took a combination of vitamin E, beta-carotene and vitamin C.
And on medicine-net:
Vitamin E Raises Bad Cholesterol Alert
Summary: Vitamin E, an antioxidant, has been found to promote the production of "bad" cholesterol, that is, the low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol.
Quote: I would "take vitamin E supplements only in circumstances where there has been proven clinical benefit, and that is not the case in cardiovascular disease." (Dr. KJ Williams, researcher)
Comment: The original article is somewhat technical. The authors conclude that: "These results establish a novel link between lipid peroxidation and oxidant stress with ApoB100 degradation via PERPP, and may be relevant to the hypolipidemic actions of dietary PUFAs, the basal regulation of ApoB100 secretion, and hyperlipidemias arising from ApoB100 overproduction. " Not real easy reading at bedtime (or any time).
Barbara K. Hecht, Ph.D.
Frederick Hecht, M.D.
I've cut my intake as a result of these recent reports from either 400 or 1000 IU every day to 400 IU 3 times a week.
JJ
05-25-2005, 11:28 PM
Does anyone know whether taking Vitamin E affects cholesterol levels?
Calli..I also have heard pros and cons about E. We use to take 400 IU daily, then hubby's cardio man said not to, as it wasn't as good as first suspected. Some folks still swear by it, but when our bottle ran out, we just never replaced it. Take care...... :)
Calli..I also have heard pros and cons about E. We use to take 400 IU daily, then hubby's cardio man said not to, as it wasn't as good as first suspected. Some folks still swear by it, but when our bottle ran out, we just never replaced it. Take care...... :)
ARIZONA73
05-25-2005, 11:46 PM
Calli2525,
Don't believe all of that negative propaganda that has been circulating in the media as of late. Of course there have been other studies which showed very beneficial effects from taking vitamin E, such as the Harvard-based Physicians' Health Study, the Cambridge Heart Antioxidant Study, and the study from the University of California School of Medicine.
But, in answer to your question, I have not experienced any total cholesterol lowering effects from taking vitamin E. I cannot comment on Ester-E, as I have never taken it. If anything, vitamin E will raise HDL levels. I have NEVER experienced an increase in LDL from taking vitamin E, and I've been taking it for over 25 years. My LDL is great. My HDL is 107, although I must also give some credit to niacin and other lifestyle changes and supplements.
I think the most important thing to keep in mind about vitamin E is that it is a powerful antioxidant. Although it may not significantly impact cholesterol levels, it certainly helps prevent the oxidation of LDL cholesterol. That's very important, and should not be taken lightly. I think that vitamin E is probably one of the most important supplements that you can take. However, vitamin E works best in conjunction with other antioxidants, such as vitamin C and selenium. But please, don't buy into all of that negative propaganda. It's all a lot of nonsense.
Don't believe all of that negative propaganda that has been circulating in the media as of late. Of course there have been other studies which showed very beneficial effects from taking vitamin E, such as the Harvard-based Physicians' Health Study, the Cambridge Heart Antioxidant Study, and the study from the University of California School of Medicine.
But, in answer to your question, I have not experienced any total cholesterol lowering effects from taking vitamin E. I cannot comment on Ester-E, as I have never taken it. If anything, vitamin E will raise HDL levels. I have NEVER experienced an increase in LDL from taking vitamin E, and I've been taking it for over 25 years. My LDL is great. My HDL is 107, although I must also give some credit to niacin and other lifestyle changes and supplements.
I think the most important thing to keep in mind about vitamin E is that it is a powerful antioxidant. Although it may not significantly impact cholesterol levels, it certainly helps prevent the oxidation of LDL cholesterol. That's very important, and should not be taken lightly. I think that vitamin E is probably one of the most important supplements that you can take. However, vitamin E works best in conjunction with other antioxidants, such as vitamin C and selenium. But please, don't buy into all of that negative propaganda. It's all a lot of nonsense.
gardeninggal
05-26-2005, 12:27 AM
ARIZONA: My hubby and I both take Vit. E but only a natural E. But really I am so confused, I do a lot of research and the more I study the reports the more I wonder who can you believe. Nutrition has always interested me and we try to eat right and take vitamins. I am a from scratch cook and we quit using trans fats a long time ago. But just when you think you got it right then someone comes on TV and says you had it all wrong. My husband has high cholesterol and diet does not reduce it and he is on Lipitor and seems to handle it okay, but then I have had him on CoQ10 from the start. Right now we take a lot of vitamins (we rattle when we walk) and I frankly am tired of taking them all and long for the days when we didn't think about our diets and cholesterol. By the way when the doctor said hubby couldn't have eggs and we quit eating them, guess what, my low cholesterol went up. Lately I have read at least 3 reports that say take this natural vitamin or take that one and it will remarkably lower your cholesterol etc. Talk about FEAR FACTOR. :confused:
JJ
05-26-2005, 01:20 AM
gardeninggal, I think we are all in the same boat. One minute something is good for you, next week it isn't. Like hubby's dr. said, he just didn't feel taking large doses was as great as first expected, so we just decided to take one less thing. There is E in our multi, so at least we get some, but I tend more to the C, garlic, calcium and now have been trying some non flush Niacin. My system is so sensative to stuff I have to be careful, as what doesn't bother other folks, does most of the time bother me.
I think we all need to experiment with certain things and see how it affects us. I couldn't take the fish oil, as it raised my LDL, so now I eat more tuna, as I am not a fish lover, but know I need the good oils. Also have been eating more fruits and veggies, as well as mixed nuts, and have also cut back even more on carbs. Like U, I would love to go back to the days of going to the dr. and being told.."See ya next year" for a physical. Some days I really want to toss up my hands and say forget it, all this experimenting is making me nuts. Oh well, like everyone else, just have to keep on plugging along and do the best we can. Best wishes..... :wave:
I think we all need to experiment with certain things and see how it affects us. I couldn't take the fish oil, as it raised my LDL, so now I eat more tuna, as I am not a fish lover, but know I need the good oils. Also have been eating more fruits and veggies, as well as mixed nuts, and have also cut back even more on carbs. Like U, I would love to go back to the days of going to the dr. and being told.."See ya next year" for a physical. Some days I really want to toss up my hands and say forget it, all this experimenting is making me nuts. Oh well, like everyone else, just have to keep on plugging along and do the best we can. Best wishes..... :wave:
Lenin
05-26-2005, 09:29 AM
ARIZONA,
I searched the Physician Heart Study #2 relating cardiovascular health to popular mega-vitamin dosing (#1 was the study that showed aspirin and beta carotene beneficial during the '80's)...I have come up with findings that
1. the study isn't complete for 2 more years or
2. it showed (or is showing) NO cardiac benefit for either Vitamin-E or Vitamin-C (but no harm).
Do you have any information that indicates this study showed POSITIVE cardiac effects?
Vitamin-E seems like a pill in search of something to do. I recall it's inception as a super-popular supplement in the late 50's or early 60's. It's deficiency was related to poor female egg production, folic from egg-follicle. Since human reproduction is loosely tied to sexuality:D:D:D the mega-dosing with tocopherol was bandied about in all the tabloids and legitimate press as a "sexual-performance enhancement." So since great sex is the goal of everyone on the planet, Vitamin E was off and running. Trouble was, it did no more for sex than Vitamin C did for the common cold.
Since the industry was up and running, the pundits had to grab hold of SOMETHING it's good for. PREVENTED SCARS...and then it was in every face cream and moisturizer in the world...oh, it DIDN'T prevent scars? NEXT DISEASE please...let's see, it's oily so think fats. Hmmm, PLAQUE, YESSSS!
"Vitamin E Cures Heart Disease" gets trumpeted.
I feel I've been had by the Vitamin industry and I could buy a used car with what I've spent over Vitamin E over the last 40 years. :mad: I wonder what is the NEXT thing is that it will cure? Cancer perhaps...or did they already use that one?
I hope I'm not going down the same slippery slope with Co-Q10...that costs a LOT more. :rolleyes:
I searched the Physician Heart Study #2 relating cardiovascular health to popular mega-vitamin dosing (#1 was the study that showed aspirin and beta carotene beneficial during the '80's)...I have come up with findings that
1. the study isn't complete for 2 more years or
2. it showed (or is showing) NO cardiac benefit for either Vitamin-E or Vitamin-C (but no harm).
Do you have any information that indicates this study showed POSITIVE cardiac effects?
Vitamin-E seems like a pill in search of something to do. I recall it's inception as a super-popular supplement in the late 50's or early 60's. It's deficiency was related to poor female egg production, folic from egg-follicle. Since human reproduction is loosely tied to sexuality:D:D:D the mega-dosing with tocopherol was bandied about in all the tabloids and legitimate press as a "sexual-performance enhancement." So since great sex is the goal of everyone on the planet, Vitamin E was off and running. Trouble was, it did no more for sex than Vitamin C did for the common cold.
Since the industry was up and running, the pundits had to grab hold of SOMETHING it's good for. PREVENTED SCARS...and then it was in every face cream and moisturizer in the world...oh, it DIDN'T prevent scars? NEXT DISEASE please...let's see, it's oily so think fats. Hmmm, PLAQUE, YESSSS!
"Vitamin E Cures Heart Disease" gets trumpeted.
I feel I've been had by the Vitamin industry and I could buy a used car with what I've spent over Vitamin E over the last 40 years. :mad: I wonder what is the NEXT thing is that it will cure? Cancer perhaps...or did they already use that one?
I hope I'm not going down the same slippery slope with Co-Q10...that costs a LOT more. :rolleyes:
ARIZONA73
05-26-2005, 07:30 PM
Lenin,
The Heart Protection Study, aside from being clearly biased, was a total waste of time and money. First of all, most of the subjects already had coronary disease, other occlusive arterial disease, or diabetes. If that isn't bad enough, they didn't even use natural vitamin E. They used 600 IU dl-alpha-tocopherol, which is synthetic vitamin E. While there is no difference between natural and synthetic vitamin C, natural and synthetic vitamin E are very different. In fact, as far back as the early 1960's it was noted that negative studies on vitamin E had generally used the synthetic form.
Despite initial appearances, it would have been hard to design a more misleading study than the one conducted by the Heart Protection Study Group. The researchers claimed their results showed antioxidant supplementation to be of no value; but scientifically, their study was useless in terms of determining the importance of high dose supplementation in heart disease.
The Heart Protection Study, aside from being clearly biased, was a total waste of time and money. First of all, most of the subjects already had coronary disease, other occlusive arterial disease, or diabetes. If that isn't bad enough, they didn't even use natural vitamin E. They used 600 IU dl-alpha-tocopherol, which is synthetic vitamin E. While there is no difference between natural and synthetic vitamin C, natural and synthetic vitamin E are very different. In fact, as far back as the early 1960's it was noted that negative studies on vitamin E had generally used the synthetic form.
Despite initial appearances, it would have been hard to design a more misleading study than the one conducted by the Heart Protection Study Group. The researchers claimed their results showed antioxidant supplementation to be of no value; but scientifically, their study was useless in terms of determining the importance of high dose supplementation in heart disease.
Lenin
05-30-2005, 12:21 PM
AHA,
They bought the pills from the wrong supplier in the wrong dosage and probably not chelated or esterified or God know whatever the selling point is these days to get a premium price and they tested the WRONG people ... otherwise it WOULD have worked. I see! <tongue firmly in cheek>
Gee, why does that all seem SO familiar?
It reminds me of the Vitamin C-Cancer rondalay...6 grams...10 grams...then to BOWEL tolerance...than circumvent the bowel and intravenous, 50g, 75g...gotta stop using the acid or you'll KILL the patient...chelates...up to 125 grams a day intravenous.
When that didn't work, I'm sure they had some story like...aha, you used the WHITE stuff when you should have used the MAUVE...or it NEVER works if you give it when it's raining.
They bought the pills from the wrong supplier in the wrong dosage and probably not chelated or esterified or God know whatever the selling point is these days to get a premium price and they tested the WRONG people ... otherwise it WOULD have worked. I see! <tongue firmly in cheek>
Gee, why does that all seem SO familiar?
It reminds me of the Vitamin C-Cancer rondalay...6 grams...10 grams...then to BOWEL tolerance...than circumvent the bowel and intravenous, 50g, 75g...gotta stop using the acid or you'll KILL the patient...chelates...up to 125 grams a day intravenous.
When that didn't work, I'm sure they had some story like...aha, you used the WHITE stuff when you should have used the MAUVE...or it NEVER works if you give it when it's raining.
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 01:56 PM
Lenin,
Believe it or not, there actually have been cases in which people have been cured of cancer by high intravenous doses of vitamin C. There may not be an overwhelming number of such cases, but then again, how often is this therapy even tried? When a person is terminally ill with cancer, what does he have to lose by trying it? But I would say that in 99.9% of cases, intravenous ascorbate therapy is never even tried. In the new vitamin C book I bought recently, "Ascorbate, the Science of Vitamin C", they made mention of a terminally ill woman who had pancreatic cancer. After being given 40 grams of intravenous ascorbate for 6 months, her cancer disappeared. A few other cases were mentioned as well.
There was also some good information provided in this book on the differences between natural and synthetic vitamin E:
"For the vast majority of chemical reactions, the two forms are identical. The main exception to this rule is in biology. One of the characteristics of biological chemistry is that sometimes only one form of optical isomer can be used for a particular purpose. This is because the enzymes are very specific and generally react with only one form of a molecule. Enzymes react with molecules in a way that is described as a lock-and-key fit. The enzyme has an active site that the molecule fits into in order to react. Right hands will not fit neatly into left-handed gloves and, similarly, you often need the correct optical isomer to fit the enzyme. In this way, the body uses only one of the d- or the l- form of such chemical components, but not both."
"Synthetic vitamin E also contains seven unnatural forms that have a tail in an "S" configuration, with pronounced "kinks" that natural forms do not have. While the synthetic vitamin E molecules with "S" shaped tails do enter membranes, they do not stay there. The kinked tails twist out of the plane of the membrane and prevent the molecules stacking close together. Natural vitamin E molecules can pile together, rather like a set of spoons, and are more compatible with membrane lipids. Synthetic vitamin E is also poorly absorbed unless taken with a substantial amount of fat or oils. Cold-water dispersible forms of vitamin E are more easily absorbed from the diet and are recommended by health food suppliers."
Skeptics also often conveniently ignore previous vitamin E studies which did indeed show promising results, as if somehow they have suddenly become irrelevant. I also find it ironic that all those so-called experts who lambaste vitamin E by citing negative studies will also advise people to derive their vitamin E from foods instead, since it is better, and to avoid vitamin E supplements. What hypocrites! The very vitamin E that can be found in foods is none other but natural vitamin E! And natural vitamin E can be purchased as a supplement, even one which contains all of the tocopherols and tocotrienols. But if by "supplements" they are referring to the junk they used in their study, I would totally agree that it's a waste.
Believe it or not, there actually have been cases in which people have been cured of cancer by high intravenous doses of vitamin C. There may not be an overwhelming number of such cases, but then again, how often is this therapy even tried? When a person is terminally ill with cancer, what does he have to lose by trying it? But I would say that in 99.9% of cases, intravenous ascorbate therapy is never even tried. In the new vitamin C book I bought recently, "Ascorbate, the Science of Vitamin C", they made mention of a terminally ill woman who had pancreatic cancer. After being given 40 grams of intravenous ascorbate for 6 months, her cancer disappeared. A few other cases were mentioned as well.
There was also some good information provided in this book on the differences between natural and synthetic vitamin E:
"For the vast majority of chemical reactions, the two forms are identical. The main exception to this rule is in biology. One of the characteristics of biological chemistry is that sometimes only one form of optical isomer can be used for a particular purpose. This is because the enzymes are very specific and generally react with only one form of a molecule. Enzymes react with molecules in a way that is described as a lock-and-key fit. The enzyme has an active site that the molecule fits into in order to react. Right hands will not fit neatly into left-handed gloves and, similarly, you often need the correct optical isomer to fit the enzyme. In this way, the body uses only one of the d- or the l- form of such chemical components, but not both."
"Synthetic vitamin E also contains seven unnatural forms that have a tail in an "S" configuration, with pronounced "kinks" that natural forms do not have. While the synthetic vitamin E molecules with "S" shaped tails do enter membranes, they do not stay there. The kinked tails twist out of the plane of the membrane and prevent the molecules stacking close together. Natural vitamin E molecules can pile together, rather like a set of spoons, and are more compatible with membrane lipids. Synthetic vitamin E is also poorly absorbed unless taken with a substantial amount of fat or oils. Cold-water dispersible forms of vitamin E are more easily absorbed from the diet and are recommended by health food suppliers."
Skeptics also often conveniently ignore previous vitamin E studies which did indeed show promising results, as if somehow they have suddenly become irrelevant. I also find it ironic that all those so-called experts who lambaste vitamin E by citing negative studies will also advise people to derive their vitamin E from foods instead, since it is better, and to avoid vitamin E supplements. What hypocrites! The very vitamin E that can be found in foods is none other but natural vitamin E! And natural vitamin E can be purchased as a supplement, even one which contains all of the tocopherols and tocotrienols. But if by "supplements" they are referring to the junk they used in their study, I would totally agree that it's a waste.
HubbleRules
05-30-2005, 02:04 PM
Arizona,
In addition to Ester-E, I'm also taking 400 IU of Natural Vitamin E - but it does not list any tocotrienols, and I've not yet found one that does...
Would you mind sharing the brand you take - I'd like to get some...
HubbleRules
:cool:
In addition to Ester-E, I'm also taking 400 IU of Natural Vitamin E - but it does not list any tocotrienols, and I've not yet found one that does...
Would you mind sharing the brand you take - I'd like to get some...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Lenin
05-30-2005, 03:03 PM
ARIZONA,
And there are anecdotal cures from a visit to LOURDES. Personally, I think the trip to France is a better way to spend your money!
Without the "anecdotal" coincidences the quacks would be on even shakier ground than they are...and THAT'S measured on the Richter scale.
"I can cure cancer...send me $50. Those who are cured CALL ME...I'll use you an example." I can probably garner $50,000 and get a survivor!
And there are anecdotal cures from a visit to LOURDES. Personally, I think the trip to France is a better way to spend your money!
Without the "anecdotal" coincidences the quacks would be on even shakier ground than they are...and THAT'S measured on the Richter scale.
"I can cure cancer...send me $50. Those who are cured CALL ME...I'll use you an example." I can probably garner $50,000 and get a survivor!
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 04:57 PM
Lenin,
Yeah, right. And those cures which were attributed to chemotherapy are all anecdotal coincidences as well. What difference does it make? If it works, it works.
Speaking of Lourdes, I hope you're not trying to make some kind of a joke about what went on there. I'll bet you never even read a book about Saint Bernadette Soubirous. I have.
Hubble,
I order vitamin E with tocotrienols from Puritan's Pride. Didn't you say you ordered Ester-E from them? If you did, and you still have their catologue, you should find vitamin E with tocotrienols on page 28.
Yeah, right. And those cures which were attributed to chemotherapy are all anecdotal coincidences as well. What difference does it make? If it works, it works.
Speaking of Lourdes, I hope you're not trying to make some kind of a joke about what went on there. I'll bet you never even read a book about Saint Bernadette Soubirous. I have.
Hubble,
I order vitamin E with tocotrienols from Puritan's Pride. Didn't you say you ordered Ester-E from them? If you did, and you still have their catologue, you should find vitamin E with tocotrienols on page 28.
HubbleRules
05-30-2005, 05:56 PM
Hubble,
I order vitamin E with tocotrienols from Puritan's Pride. Didn't you say you ordered Ester-E from them? If you did, and you still have their catologue, you should find vitamin E with tocotrienols on page 28.
Arizona,
Yes - I do order most of my Vitamins from Puritan - including Ester-E...
I never found tocotrienols when I searched their site a while ago (probably a year)... or I mispelled it...
Anyhow, I found the product - thanks a lot... I've added it to my list of favorites with them...
HubbleRules
:cool:
I order vitamin E with tocotrienols from Puritan's Pride. Didn't you say you ordered Ester-E from them? If you did, and you still have their catologue, you should find vitamin E with tocotrienols on page 28.
Arizona,
Yes - I do order most of my Vitamins from Puritan - including Ester-E...
I never found tocotrienols when I searched their site a while ago (probably a year)... or I mispelled it...
Anyhow, I found the product - thanks a lot... I've added it to my list of favorites with them...
HubbleRules
:cool:
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 06:49 PM
Hubble,
I know what you mean when you try to find a particular item on the web site. It can be like looking for a needle in a haystack. But with a catalog in front of me, I can find what I'm looking for a lot quicker. In fact, like yourself, I remember that I actually did have trouble finding it on their web site once. I must have been looking for close to a half hour.
I know what you mean when you try to find a particular item on the web site. It can be like looking for a needle in a haystack. But with a catalog in front of me, I can find what I'm looking for a lot quicker. In fact, like yourself, I remember that I actually did have trouble finding it on their web site once. I must have been looking for close to a half hour.
gardeninggal
05-30-2005, 08:30 PM
All this about natural and synthetic E and other vitamins....I am a prime example of what happens to a person when they have been dooped into taking a synthetic instead. I had thyroid surgery and took a natural thyroid for many years with good results then was told the company had discontinued manufacturing them because of the huge amount of money to test and put the required shelf life date on the package. My doctor prescribed Synthroid. The beginning of problems, hair loss, weight problems, eye problems, joint aches, higher cholesterol etc. This year I said give me Armour, a natural and I am doing much better. Had another surgery and got put on Permarin for many years, more problems untill against doctors orders I took myself off them. Here is my point, your body knows what is natural and what is synthetic, whether it is food additives, vitamins or statins and you will pay a price. I now have stopped taking a lot of things and am trying to give my body a chance to do it's thing in the way it was intended. I hope I don't become so healthy that when I get Alzheimer's it takes me longer to die, as I sit in the nursing home. :rolleyes:
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 11:34 PM
Gardeninggal,
I know what you mean about remaining healthy enough to eventually wind up in some nursing home. That's one of my greatest fears. But what can we do? It's like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Anyway, I don't know if you have faith in God or not, but I believe that when it's time for us to finally go HOME, we must.
I know what you mean about remaining healthy enough to eventually wind up in some nursing home. That's one of my greatest fears. But what can we do? It's like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Anyway, I don't know if you have faith in God or not, but I believe that when it's time for us to finally go HOME, we must.
Lenin
05-31-2005, 09:02 AM
ARIZONA,
I went to Catholic grade school and high school in the 50's. Believe me I know EVERYTHING there is to know about Lourdes and Fatima...the nuns TESTED on it :D(instead of the Geography of Asia <because most of THOSE people were "heathens">)...yes I know about Bernadette.
Of course, anyone who would believe in Lourdes will be a natural mark for vitamin "cures"...they are cut from the same cloth: HOPE, FAITH and LARCENY!
"Natural" when it refers to a vitamin almost always means DOUBLE the price and little more. All claims to the contrary are called "ADVERTISING" and are geared to part the unwary from his money!
With prescription drugs, natural has a real meaning because it HAS to and it must be PROVEN...the law requires it. With vitamins the hucksters can claim ANYTHING...and DO!
I went to Catholic grade school and high school in the 50's. Believe me I know EVERYTHING there is to know about Lourdes and Fatima...the nuns TESTED on it :D(instead of the Geography of Asia <because most of THOSE people were "heathens">)...yes I know about Bernadette.
Of course, anyone who would believe in Lourdes will be a natural mark for vitamin "cures"...they are cut from the same cloth: HOPE, FAITH and LARCENY!
"Natural" when it refers to a vitamin almost always means DOUBLE the price and little more. All claims to the contrary are called "ADVERTISING" and are geared to part the unwary from his money!
With prescription drugs, natural has a real meaning because it HAS to and it must be PROVEN...the law requires it. With vitamins the hucksters can claim ANYTHING...and DO!
gardeninggal
05-31-2005, 11:48 AM
Lenin: In reading your posts I see that you have a great mistrust in vitamins. Can I ask, have you had a very bad experience that you can share. I myself know that all advertisments are not on the level and most things are over-priced but with a little care and investigation you can take most vitamins safely. Many say you only get yellow urine but I personally know that I have some vitamin deficiencies, example, I have an arrhythmia, runs in my family and I have had it since I was 23 (some time ago ;) and I can take a prescription with many side-effects or I can take Magnesium. Guess what I do! My doctor sees the results of magnesium and agrees. Magnesium deficiencies can cause heart trouble and if bad enough a heart attack. Guess what they give you when you come into emergency with a heart attack......magnesium. A deficiency is linked to Alzheimers. Here is the problem, our soil is depleted of magnesium and also you are eating food delivered to you from far off places where the soil maybe even worse off. A very interesting study is magnesium, well worth the time if you want a healthy body. The sun is out and the rain has abated and the weeds in my garden have had a head start so I am off to soak up some of those rays. Have a great day Lenin. :wave:
Lenin
05-31-2005, 01:22 PM
gardeninggal,
My primary bad experience is the thousands of dollars (perhaps tens of thousands) I wasted over the decades on one "supplement" after another because I fell for the nonsensical, unproven claims...gee the hucksters make them sound good....maybe THIS claim is true!
I go all the way back to Adele Davis, Carlton Frederics and the Pacifica quack guru, Gary Null...I listened faithfully every day and thus I have heard EVERY quack with EVERY cure on the planet Earth. One could have a different quack "cure" for cancer every day and they would barely fit into a 2 month period.
I eventually LEARNED.
When I KNOW PERSONALLY that high doses of Vitamin C and Vitamin E are useless or worse at helping maintain cardiac health, all I need do is read AGAIN the resurrection of these preposterous claims by the SAME quacks...even from the GRAVE...and my blood boils. When I THINK of the pounds and pounds of Vitamin C I have eaten and the gallons of Vitamin E downed, all to earn a shiny new stent, I am furious.
I think many of these quacks should be jailed...they have KILLED people who relied on them to the exclusion of better treatment.
Quack: "Such and Such has been shown to cure cancer."
Judge: "Prove it!"
Quack: "I can't."
Judge: "Thirty Year sentence, for conspiracy to kill cancer patients!!"
You picked the four leaf clover from the manure: magnesium. It is a wonderful supplement and I would venture is almost a real cure for many people who tend to have heart rhythm irregularities. I use it BECAUSE I experienced a couple bouts of arrythmia years ago...and it worked and contiunues to work beautifully. It works for most of the people I mention it to...on and off the net. Like potassium, magnesium has a profound effect on the heart's electro-chemical system. Maybe grandma's "a dose of salts" (Epsom...MgSo4 heptahydrate) was pretty wise.
Of course since it;s cheap as dirt, the hucksters come along and lie about the benefits of taking even Magnesium as the chelate, perhaps the gluconate or even MORE expensive...the orotate....ALL NONSENSE because the stuff is completely soluble no matter WHAT way it is delivered. (I take the OXIDE!)
Another gorgeous day for us in the NYC area today...and a continuation of the nicest Spring in 30 years. Hitting the gym!
My primary bad experience is the thousands of dollars (perhaps tens of thousands) I wasted over the decades on one "supplement" after another because I fell for the nonsensical, unproven claims...gee the hucksters make them sound good....maybe THIS claim is true!
I go all the way back to Adele Davis, Carlton Frederics and the Pacifica quack guru, Gary Null...I listened faithfully every day and thus I have heard EVERY quack with EVERY cure on the planet Earth. One could have a different quack "cure" for cancer every day and they would barely fit into a 2 month period.
I eventually LEARNED.
When I KNOW PERSONALLY that high doses of Vitamin C and Vitamin E are useless or worse at helping maintain cardiac health, all I need do is read AGAIN the resurrection of these preposterous claims by the SAME quacks...even from the GRAVE...and my blood boils. When I THINK of the pounds and pounds of Vitamin C I have eaten and the gallons of Vitamin E downed, all to earn a shiny new stent, I am furious.
I think many of these quacks should be jailed...they have KILLED people who relied on them to the exclusion of better treatment.
Quack: "Such and Such has been shown to cure cancer."
Judge: "Prove it!"
Quack: "I can't."
Judge: "Thirty Year sentence, for conspiracy to kill cancer patients!!"
You picked the four leaf clover from the manure: magnesium. It is a wonderful supplement and I would venture is almost a real cure for many people who tend to have heart rhythm irregularities. I use it BECAUSE I experienced a couple bouts of arrythmia years ago...and it worked and contiunues to work beautifully. It works for most of the people I mention it to...on and off the net. Like potassium, magnesium has a profound effect on the heart's electro-chemical system. Maybe grandma's "a dose of salts" (Epsom...MgSo4 heptahydrate) was pretty wise.
Of course since it;s cheap as dirt, the hucksters come along and lie about the benefits of taking even Magnesium as the chelate, perhaps the gluconate or even MORE expensive...the orotate....ALL NONSENSE because the stuff is completely soluble no matter WHAT way it is delivered. (I take the OXIDE!)
Another gorgeous day for us in the NYC area today...and a continuation of the nicest Spring in 30 years. Hitting the gym!
Stumper
05-31-2005, 03:30 PM
Lenin,
I am with you on the vitamins. I have seen much to much and even in my own family!
My mother was a big vitamin taker. Took all kinds of vitamins, supplements and so forth. And then died at the age of 73 from liver cancer.
Also remember Eull Givvens? (sp?) the grapenuts poster boy? Dead at 65 from a heart attack. The man needed more than seeds and berries. I bet he was defiscient in several ways and probably needed meat :D :D :D
I think vitamins have a place though, especially if one is shown to be defiscient in one through a blood test. My B-12's were just very very slightly low and doc put me on a B-12 Vitamin of 250Mcg. per day, BUT I get them at Walmart. :D
There are alot of claims out there. Everyone wants to think they have the "fountain of youth" in a bottle. :D
I am with you on the vitamins. I have seen much to much and even in my own family!
My mother was a big vitamin taker. Took all kinds of vitamins, supplements and so forth. And then died at the age of 73 from liver cancer.
Also remember Eull Givvens? (sp?) the grapenuts poster boy? Dead at 65 from a heart attack. The man needed more than seeds and berries. I bet he was defiscient in several ways and probably needed meat :D :D :D
I think vitamins have a place though, especially if one is shown to be defiscient in one through a blood test. My B-12's were just very very slightly low and doc put me on a B-12 Vitamin of 250Mcg. per day, BUT I get them at Walmart. :D
There are alot of claims out there. Everyone wants to think they have the "fountain of youth" in a bottle. :D
ARIZONA73
05-31-2005, 06:37 PM
Lenin,
Wow, it seems that Dr. Beatrice Golomb was right all along! Statins really DO adversely effect cognitive function!
Wow, it seems that Dr. Beatrice Golomb was right all along! Statins really DO adversely effect cognitive function!
Lenin
05-31-2005, 07:11 PM
Sorry ARIZONA,
My realization that mega-dosing with vitamins was quackery predates the invention of statins. If I have any impairment in cognitive function, it's from megadosing with Vitamin C and E...and MSM and DHEA and glucosamine-chondroitin...and DMSO and Yohimbe and Horny Goat Weed and Echinacea and astragalus and Goldenseal and seaweed and calcium ...and arginine and ornithine and melatonin and St. John's Wort...and on and on and on!
Can we forget MAGNETS and copper bracelets...cherry juice at $4 a quart to cure gout is another DOOZY...at least it TASTED good, that's something none of the others had going for them.
Only TWO WORDS would make them all go away:
PROVE IT!
My realization that mega-dosing with vitamins was quackery predates the invention of statins. If I have any impairment in cognitive function, it's from megadosing with Vitamin C and E...and MSM and DHEA and glucosamine-chondroitin...and DMSO and Yohimbe and Horny Goat Weed and Echinacea and astragalus and Goldenseal and seaweed and calcium ...and arginine and ornithine and melatonin and St. John's Wort...and on and on and on!
Can we forget MAGNETS and copper bracelets...cherry juice at $4 a quart to cure gout is another DOOZY...at least it TASTED good, that's something none of the others had going for them.
Only TWO WORDS would make them all go away:
PROVE IT!
JJ
05-31-2005, 08:24 PM
Lenin, do U have gout problems? A friend of our's has, and his dr. has him eating strawberries just about dailey. So far he said it is working very well for him, and has only had one minor attack since eating them.
Stumper
05-31-2005, 10:02 PM
Actually there aare several things that I know of that are easily obtained that actually do work well.
One is cranberry juice. It is excellent for kidney infections and will clear or help clear them. My wife has used it many times.
Another one is OTC Anfrin. It will take a nasty cold and nasal congestion and will make you feel 100% better, keep the nose from running, and allow you o good nights sleep without blowing your nose every 15 minutes. In my view it is the cure to the common cold. But do not use more than 3 days. It is a nasal spray and will last a full 12 hours. I feel it actually shortens a 10 day cold to 3 days.
Another one is Vicks vaporub. Rub it on those fungus filled toe nails every day for 3-6 months and it will kill the fungus. As you know it takes a med to do this which is hard on the liver. But for $2.35 a bottle you can kill it. I have seen it tried and work. This came out of a Cleveland pharmacy.
Another one is SinusBuster. ZOOOWW! I used this for my sinuses and it will indeed drain them. Capsium pepper!, mixed with oil and other ingredients. I sommersalted across the room when I took my first shot. It is a nasal spray.
But now, I prefer SinoFresh which I just purchased at Walmart although pricey. Cool mint and oils. It is supposed to kill Molds and germs in the sinuses. It works real nice and will not give you sommersalts!
Need evergy? Try a can of RedBull. This has shown in clinical trials to increase energy and mental alertness in 60% of inmdividuals who use it. It really helps, but pricey. It contains B-12 and B-6 and Inosotil, Taurine and caffiene.
But vitamins? Which ones? There are thousands of vites and supplements. I , like Lenin, have waisted alot of money on some of these things.
One is cranberry juice. It is excellent for kidney infections and will clear or help clear them. My wife has used it many times.
Another one is OTC Anfrin. It will take a nasty cold and nasal congestion and will make you feel 100% better, keep the nose from running, and allow you o good nights sleep without blowing your nose every 15 minutes. In my view it is the cure to the common cold. But do not use more than 3 days. It is a nasal spray and will last a full 12 hours. I feel it actually shortens a 10 day cold to 3 days.
Another one is Vicks vaporub. Rub it on those fungus filled toe nails every day for 3-6 months and it will kill the fungus. As you know it takes a med to do this which is hard on the liver. But for $2.35 a bottle you can kill it. I have seen it tried and work. This came out of a Cleveland pharmacy.
Another one is SinusBuster. ZOOOWW! I used this for my sinuses and it will indeed drain them. Capsium pepper!, mixed with oil and other ingredients. I sommersalted across the room when I took my first shot. It is a nasal spray.
But now, I prefer SinoFresh which I just purchased at Walmart although pricey. Cool mint and oils. It is supposed to kill Molds and germs in the sinuses. It works real nice and will not give you sommersalts!
Need evergy? Try a can of RedBull. This has shown in clinical trials to increase energy and mental alertness in 60% of inmdividuals who use it. It really helps, but pricey. It contains B-12 and B-6 and Inosotil, Taurine and caffiene.
But vitamins? Which ones? There are thousands of vites and supplements. I , like Lenin, have waisted alot of money on some of these things.
JJ
05-31-2005, 10:26 PM
Like everything, some work very well for some and not so good for others. Hubby had a toenail fungus and the dr. suggested Vicks, didn't do a darn thing. He didn't want to take the Lamisil, as that U have to go for liver tests. Oh well, his dr. finally put him on some fool thing U spread on your nail and it worked, but MIGHTY expensive.
As far as vitamins, some drs. tell U your wasting your money, other's think most are fine. I liked the B-C complex stuff I was on for years, then started just taking a reg. multi. Think I will go back to the B-C, as I liked it better. Like anything, guess ya just have to try it and if it works fine, if not, oh well, onto something else. There is no magic pill out there for anything, so to me it is trial and error. I would much rather try something more natural then a prescribed med if possible, as I am way too sensative to meds., but that is just my opinion. I know they tell U a glass of wine a day is good, but I am not a drinker, body can't handle it. One drink for me is like 4 for someone else. Like hubby says, I could get drunk just smelling the cork... :D
People have to take and try whatever they feel comfortable with, and if it works, great, if not, try something else. Alot of folks can't take certain things as they may be on other meds., so U have to pick and choose what U want to try. I can't take Cipro for an infection, it gives me horrid heart palps and gives me the jitters, so go figure???
Take care, and have a good nite..... :wave:
As far as vitamins, some drs. tell U your wasting your money, other's think most are fine. I liked the B-C complex stuff I was on for years, then started just taking a reg. multi. Think I will go back to the B-C, as I liked it better. Like anything, guess ya just have to try it and if it works fine, if not, oh well, onto something else. There is no magic pill out there for anything, so to me it is trial and error. I would much rather try something more natural then a prescribed med if possible, as I am way too sensative to meds., but that is just my opinion. I know they tell U a glass of wine a day is good, but I am not a drinker, body can't handle it. One drink for me is like 4 for someone else. Like hubby says, I could get drunk just smelling the cork... :D
People have to take and try whatever they feel comfortable with, and if it works, great, if not, try something else. Alot of folks can't take certain things as they may be on other meds., so U have to pick and choose what U want to try. I can't take Cipro for an infection, it gives me horrid heart palps and gives me the jitters, so go figure???
Take care, and have a good nite..... :wave:
Stumper
05-31-2005, 10:52 PM
Not long ago I went through my shelves and threw out a bunch of stuff. All a waste of money.
I threw out a large bottle of Shark cartiledge. It was supposed to be helpful for something but the only thing it did was stunk. :D sardines are better :D
I threw out a bunch of herbs as well. Straight to the trash. Now that is not to say some herbs are not helpful. I think they could be, but mine weren't.
I had Coral calcium, Hawthorn berry, Capsium pepper (which burned my throat). BUT I did have some slippery elm tea which I found quite soothing for sore throats.
But like lenin, most of the stuff I tried was garbage. I also fell for the B-Alive honey capsules. What a joke. Them things plugged my sinuses with wax.
I was also into minerals. But they had to be colloidal to be good :D Alot of money and felt no different.
Fish oil is good, CoQ10 is good and looks good in clinical trials for several things. RedBull is good :D
You want to see alot of vitamin use the Amish are BIG ONES with LOTS of old wives tales.
But hey, if one still insists something is good and it helps, well, go for it. But I find and see alot of nonsense as well.
I threw out a large bottle of Shark cartiledge. It was supposed to be helpful for something but the only thing it did was stunk. :D sardines are better :D
I threw out a bunch of herbs as well. Straight to the trash. Now that is not to say some herbs are not helpful. I think they could be, but mine weren't.
I had Coral calcium, Hawthorn berry, Capsium pepper (which burned my throat). BUT I did have some slippery elm tea which I found quite soothing for sore throats.
But like lenin, most of the stuff I tried was garbage. I also fell for the B-Alive honey capsules. What a joke. Them things plugged my sinuses with wax.
I was also into minerals. But they had to be colloidal to be good :D Alot of money and felt no different.
Fish oil is good, CoQ10 is good and looks good in clinical trials for several things. RedBull is good :D
You want to see alot of vitamin use the Amish are BIG ONES with LOTS of old wives tales.
But hey, if one still insists something is good and it helps, well, go for it. But I find and see alot of nonsense as well.
JJ
05-31-2005, 11:26 PM
As long as U can take the statins with no side effects, that is good. I, like many others had horrid reactions to them, so am trying like crazy to lower the numbers with diet, exercise and some supplements. I don't expect to try everything I hear about, that is not my style, plus I don't have money to blow.
I have always taken a good vitamin, extra C, garlic and now calcium. Have been trying the non flush niacin, but even at the small dose I take, 100 mgs. it actually gives me the itchys. Like I said, I am VERY sensative to things, so if I have to stop it, then so be it, but at least I tried. For now we both have cut back further on red meats, and added more fruits and veggies. I do still eat a hard boiled egg usually 3 times a week, and eat oatmeal every day.
I refuse to give up everything I like, but I know some things I needed to cut back on, and others I needed to increase. If this doesn't do the trick, then not much I can do, and if the dr. gives me a hard time, well, she might as well save her breath, as NO way will I take a statin, been there, suffered, and refuse to go thru it again.
Neither of us are drinkers, don't do junk food, so not much else I can give up, so like I said, we are doing the best we can. Hubby's dr. is very understanding and knows what he went thru, so he doesn't pressure him, my dr, is new to me, so we will see how we tolerate each other... :D
Got to get a few things done here so I can watch Jay Leno. U have a great nite, and TTYL.... :wave:
I have always taken a good vitamin, extra C, garlic and now calcium. Have been trying the non flush niacin, but even at the small dose I take, 100 mgs. it actually gives me the itchys. Like I said, I am VERY sensative to things, so if I have to stop it, then so be it, but at least I tried. For now we both have cut back further on red meats, and added more fruits and veggies. I do still eat a hard boiled egg usually 3 times a week, and eat oatmeal every day.
I refuse to give up everything I like, but I know some things I needed to cut back on, and others I needed to increase. If this doesn't do the trick, then not much I can do, and if the dr. gives me a hard time, well, she might as well save her breath, as NO way will I take a statin, been there, suffered, and refuse to go thru it again.
Neither of us are drinkers, don't do junk food, so not much else I can give up, so like I said, we are doing the best we can. Hubby's dr. is very understanding and knows what he went thru, so he doesn't pressure him, my dr, is new to me, so we will see how we tolerate each other... :D
Got to get a few things done here so I can watch Jay Leno. U have a great nite, and TTYL.... :wave:
Uff-Da!
05-31-2005, 11:51 PM
What? Vitamins are no good? They are a waste of money? How about niacin for cholesterol control? It has been used for decades for cholesterol control. I'm getting great control of mine for under five dollars a month. And what do the people taking statins have to pay? Why even Lenin is using it as an extra with his statin to help raise his HDL! (Sorry, Lenin, the devil made me do it!)
ARIZONA73
06-01-2005, 12:07 AM
Lenin,
What about that stent you had put in? Weren't you taking your miracle drug Lipitor at the time? If it worked so well, then why the stent? Hmm, maybe you're a victim of quackery on the part of the pharmaceutical industry. Just think about how much money is being wasted on that stuff!
What about that stent you had put in? Weren't you taking your miracle drug Lipitor at the time? If it worked so well, then why the stent? Hmm, maybe you're a victim of quackery on the part of the pharmaceutical industry. Just think about how much money is being wasted on that stuff!
HubbleRules
06-01-2005, 05:21 AM
Stumper,
I realize that you and Lenin are adamantly opposed to natural cures, but think about the following...
All statins have produced cancer in clinical tests with animals...
All statins are toxic to the liver - you have to be monitored for liver enzymes for the rest of your life to be sure you are tolertating the drug...
The correlation between high cholesterol and CHD is tenuous at best. It is really significant only for middle aged men with other proven CHD risk factors...
I myself was on Lopid, then Lipitor, for a total of over 12 years - at the time I didn't think about what I was taking - my doctor recommended it and I took it (blindly)... When my numbers went down, I thought all was fine with the world. My severe problem with debilitating muscle pain and weakness changed my outlook on prescription meds forever. I am much more skeptical about them than before. Sure, they are vital for many and have saved many lives, but they are also driven by a profit motivated monster known as the pharmas that have financially conflicted those who study the drugs and those that approve and prescribe them. There is little doubt about that, except in the eyes of the PollyAnnas of the world.
Nowadays I wonder about the damage that I had been doing to my body over all those years. No one (other than Dr. Golomb) is studying the long-term negative effects of statins or fibrates... We are all playing with fire with some of the drugs we take.
NO ONE KNOWS how to prevent or cure CHD today... Sure, there are plenty of quacks on the vitamin side (I wouldn't touch anything from Ken Trudeau for example), but there are also a lot of profit-motivated *******s on the pharmaceutical side who will sell drugs knowing full well they have serious, sometimes fatal, side effects, (which they withhold from the public) and will kill a lot who take them...
So I can't really buy into your or Lenin's emotional attack against viitamins. Because something didn't work for you personally is no kind of proof that something doesn't work at all...
HubbleRules
:cool:
I realize that you and Lenin are adamantly opposed to natural cures, but think about the following...
All statins have produced cancer in clinical tests with animals...
All statins are toxic to the liver - you have to be monitored for liver enzymes for the rest of your life to be sure you are tolertating the drug...
The correlation between high cholesterol and CHD is tenuous at best. It is really significant only for middle aged men with other proven CHD risk factors...
I myself was on Lopid, then Lipitor, for a total of over 12 years - at the time I didn't think about what I was taking - my doctor recommended it and I took it (blindly)... When my numbers went down, I thought all was fine with the world. My severe problem with debilitating muscle pain and weakness changed my outlook on prescription meds forever. I am much more skeptical about them than before. Sure, they are vital for many and have saved many lives, but they are also driven by a profit motivated monster known as the pharmas that have financially conflicted those who study the drugs and those that approve and prescribe them. There is little doubt about that, except in the eyes of the PollyAnnas of the world.
Nowadays I wonder about the damage that I had been doing to my body over all those years. No one (other than Dr. Golomb) is studying the long-term negative effects of statins or fibrates... We are all playing with fire with some of the drugs we take.
NO ONE KNOWS how to prevent or cure CHD today... Sure, there are plenty of quacks on the vitamin side (I wouldn't touch anything from Ken Trudeau for example), but there are also a lot of profit-motivated *******s on the pharmaceutical side who will sell drugs knowing full well they have serious, sometimes fatal, side effects, (which they withhold from the public) and will kill a lot who take them...
So I can't really buy into your or Lenin's emotional attack against viitamins. Because something didn't work for you personally is no kind of proof that something doesn't work at all...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Lenin
06-01-2005, 08:29 AM
I see, only when something DOES work for a rare somebody it is proof of EFFICACY...that's vitamin-speak. But when it DOESN'T...that's idiosynycratic and non-pertinent...seems a little contradictory to me.
ARIZONA...nope, dead end there. I had angina for 5 years before I started the Lipitor. Lived with it for 5 MORE years and then had the pain stopped with the stent. My high fat, meat heavy U.S. diet for most of my life is what gave me the atherosclerosis. The MEGA-vitamins did nothing to change that...except perhaps force me to buy a cheaper cut of steak, and worse, actually HOPE that Vitamin E megadosing was good for me...now most of recent the studies are showing, not only NO BENFIT, but actually HARM from megadosing on Vitamin-E (or Ester E, or water-soluble E, or natural L-tocopherol, or mixed tocopherols, or whatever the latest sales gimmick is to get a higher price.)
Hubble would you kindly show us some proof that "all statins cause cancer in laboratory animals." U.S. law demands that substances proven to cause cancer be pulled from the U.S. pharmaceutical market.
Gee, ALL statins yet, my that must be some HUGE body of studies...certainly it's led to MANY studies examining carcinogenicity in humans...can you list them please?
Vitamin Mega-Dosing, except in very rare cases, is a huge money-making scam and nothing more. To pull it off, they couch it in semi-scientific jargon and, at all costs, avoid testing any of the claims. A fortune is made from supplements and junk paperbacks.
And when one scheme is totally exposed, they keep the adherents they can, selling them the product for life and simply dream up another one to catch more fish with more money than brains.
Normally it's just fraud but for some serious disease claims it rises to the level of physical abuse and occasionally to homicide.
It has as much basis in fact as Christian Science, and placebo.
ARIZONA...nope, dead end there. I had angina for 5 years before I started the Lipitor. Lived with it for 5 MORE years and then had the pain stopped with the stent. My high fat, meat heavy U.S. diet for most of my life is what gave me the atherosclerosis. The MEGA-vitamins did nothing to change that...except perhaps force me to buy a cheaper cut of steak, and worse, actually HOPE that Vitamin E megadosing was good for me...now most of recent the studies are showing, not only NO BENFIT, but actually HARM from megadosing on Vitamin-E (or Ester E, or water-soluble E, or natural L-tocopherol, or mixed tocopherols, or whatever the latest sales gimmick is to get a higher price.)
Hubble would you kindly show us some proof that "all statins cause cancer in laboratory animals." U.S. law demands that substances proven to cause cancer be pulled from the U.S. pharmaceutical market.
Gee, ALL statins yet, my that must be some HUGE body of studies...certainly it's led to MANY studies examining carcinogenicity in humans...can you list them please?
Vitamin Mega-Dosing, except in very rare cases, is a huge money-making scam and nothing more. To pull it off, they couch it in semi-scientific jargon and, at all costs, avoid testing any of the claims. A fortune is made from supplements and junk paperbacks.
And when one scheme is totally exposed, they keep the adherents they can, selling them the product for life and simply dream up another one to catch more fish with more money than brains.
Normally it's just fraud but for some serious disease claims it rises to the level of physical abuse and occasionally to homicide.
It has as much basis in fact as Christian Science, and placebo.
Lenin
06-01-2005, 08:53 AM
Sheesh.....wrong key!
Stumper
06-01-2005, 05:39 PM
Hubbles,
I don't believe that all vitamins are bad. At the very leas I think a good vitamin every day can be a good thing. My doc says it's the best investment one can make.
But , on the other hand I have seen people (and I kid you not) swallow a handful of vitamins for everything under the sun and I had to wonder if they were actually hurting themselves.
A very well rounded diet with plenty of fruits ,veggies, high in protein with a "one a day" vitamin or centrum is a logical approach. But above that, unless it shows up in blood work, may be a waste of money and may actually be harmful in my opinion.
There is a guy around here(I just found out this morning) who is selling a cure for cancer INCLUDING bone cancer! He supposably had bone cancer himself but was only TOLD that he did by a doctor. He never had tests to show that he did. Well.....he developed this cure that supposably cured him because later he had tests which came back negative!
The Amish are buying it like crazy at $500.00 per month!
The vitamin supplement industry often acts on the same premise. They make billions and billions. :D
I think that many of the claims on supplements merely create a "psychosomatic" response in those that use them. The idea that it may be helping them may actually be what is REALLY helping them as opposed to what they are actually taking. And if such is the case then that might be good as well. But , imagine what the industry makes on such individuals....zillions.. :D
I don't believe that all vitamins are bad. At the very leas I think a good vitamin every day can be a good thing. My doc says it's the best investment one can make.
But , on the other hand I have seen people (and I kid you not) swallow a handful of vitamins for everything under the sun and I had to wonder if they were actually hurting themselves.
A very well rounded diet with plenty of fruits ,veggies, high in protein with a "one a day" vitamin or centrum is a logical approach. But above that, unless it shows up in blood work, may be a waste of money and may actually be harmful in my opinion.
There is a guy around here(I just found out this morning) who is selling a cure for cancer INCLUDING bone cancer! He supposably had bone cancer himself but was only TOLD that he did by a doctor. He never had tests to show that he did. Well.....he developed this cure that supposably cured him because later he had tests which came back negative!
The Amish are buying it like crazy at $500.00 per month!
The vitamin supplement industry often acts on the same premise. They make billions and billions. :D
I think that many of the claims on supplements merely create a "psychosomatic" response in those that use them. The idea that it may be helping them may actually be what is REALLY helping them as opposed to what they are actually taking. And if such is the case then that might be good as well. But , imagine what the industry makes on such individuals....zillions.. :D
ARIZONA73
06-01-2005, 11:13 PM
Lenin,
Nope, no "dead end there." So, you've been taking Lipitor for 5 years PRIOR to having the stent put in. Evidently, the Lipitor was of no help. And these drugs are hyped as being capable of reducing plaque? It seems like these drugs are being promoted as being good for whatever ails you. Prevents heart disease, alzheimers disease, osteoporosis, etc, etc. Hmm, it seems like pure pharmaceutical quackery to me. :rolleyes:
Nope, no "dead end there." So, you've been taking Lipitor for 5 years PRIOR to having the stent put in. Evidently, the Lipitor was of no help. And these drugs are hyped as being capable of reducing plaque? It seems like these drugs are being promoted as being good for whatever ails you. Prevents heart disease, alzheimers disease, osteoporosis, etc, etc. Hmm, it seems like pure pharmaceutical quackery to me. :rolleyes:
ARIZONA73
06-01-2005, 11:25 PM
Stumper,
I suppose it is also a psychosomatic response that my HDL is now over 100 because of the supplements I am taking?
I suppose it is also a psychosomatic response that my HDL is now over 100 because of the supplements I am taking?
Stumper
06-01-2005, 11:48 PM
Stumper,
I suppose it is also a psychosomatic response that my HDL is now over 100 because of the supplements I am taking?
Arizona,
What is you LDL? Totals? And triglicerides?
What exactly are you taking?
I take supplements to, B-12 due to blood tests and combination of flax/fish/borage oil. But these things like fish liver oils have been involved in clinical studies showing that they can have some affect on certain conditions. The same with CoQ10 or any other supplement that can endure clinical trials.
I have seen depressed people on other forums who absolutely refuse to take anti-depressants due to mental issues they have and seem to think that supplements can help their condition. Well, most often they wind up in very poor condition. St Johns Wort is a big one. It has been shown in clinical trial to help only "mild" depression. But anything more serious needs special medical attention and serious meds that work.
But many of the claims on supplements are bogus as I stated before and supplement industries make billions off of people, myself included, but lately I I am getting a little wiser.
I mean, how often have you seen ads or commercials on hair regrowth formulas and supplements? All bogus. Every one of them. All you have to do is search the web and see what those who have tried them say.
The man who had his little bottle of hair regrowth formula during the Wild West days is still around selling his formula, just in another package and price :D
I suppose it is also a psychosomatic response that my HDL is now over 100 because of the supplements I am taking?
Arizona,
What is you LDL? Totals? And triglicerides?
What exactly are you taking?
I take supplements to, B-12 due to blood tests and combination of flax/fish/borage oil. But these things like fish liver oils have been involved in clinical studies showing that they can have some affect on certain conditions. The same with CoQ10 or any other supplement that can endure clinical trials.
I have seen depressed people on other forums who absolutely refuse to take anti-depressants due to mental issues they have and seem to think that supplements can help their condition. Well, most often they wind up in very poor condition. St Johns Wort is a big one. It has been shown in clinical trial to help only "mild" depression. But anything more serious needs special medical attention and serious meds that work.
But many of the claims on supplements are bogus as I stated before and supplement industries make billions off of people, myself included, but lately I I am getting a little wiser.
I mean, how often have you seen ads or commercials on hair regrowth formulas and supplements? All bogus. Every one of them. All you have to do is search the web and see what those who have tried them say.
The man who had his little bottle of hair regrowth formula during the Wild West days is still around selling his formula, just in another package and price :D
Stumper
06-02-2005, 12:00 AM
Arizona,
We have an older Amish woman who lives about 1 mile up the road from us who nearly died due to her ideas on supplements. This women had severe, and I mean SEVERE water retention to the point of not being able to walk. She is 74 years old and some of her family tried to convince her she need medical attention. She refused and was taking all kinds of supplements that were supposed to help and was waiting for another in the mail!
It wasn't until her son came in and told her point blank that if she continues they will be burying her in 1 month. She finally listened and went in for some real medicine, like Lasiks and some other things. She is now home and doing good but is driving the family crazy (That's another story :D )
We have an older Amish woman who lives about 1 mile up the road from us who nearly died due to her ideas on supplements. This women had severe, and I mean SEVERE water retention to the point of not being able to walk. She is 74 years old and some of her family tried to convince her she need medical attention. She refused and was taking all kinds of supplements that were supposed to help and was waiting for another in the mail!
It wasn't until her son came in and told her point blank that if she continues they will be burying her in 1 month. She finally listened and went in for some real medicine, like Lasiks and some other things. She is now home and doing good but is driving the family crazy (That's another story :D )
HubbleRules
06-02-2005, 07:37 AM
Arizona,
I have seen depressed people on other forums who absolutely refuse to take anti-depressants due to mental issues they have and seem to think that supplements can help their condition. Well, most often they wind up in very poor condition. St Johns Wort is a big one. It has been shown in clinical trial to help only "mild" depression. But anything more serious needs special medical attention and serious meds that work.
:D
Stumper,
The antidpressant drugs (SSRIs- Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft..) are currently embroiled in a huge controversy about their tendancy to increase suicide and aggression in those that take them. As a matter of fact, the FDA put out a black-box warning on all SSRIs in late 2004 warning patients of the risk of suicide with these drugs. The FDA only does this when there is overwhelming evidence of dangerous side-effects to a drug - usually they ignore complaints of side effects and refuse to take any action (until the adverse reaction reports reach critical mass and can't be ignored any longer).
Shouldn't I consider those who promote and prescibe this class of drugs as widely as they do today to be quacks?
You claim to not be blindly opposed to all supplements, but your posts indicate exactly the opposite. You slam every supplement I can think of...
I think there is plenty of quackery on both sides of the isle to go around. I think some drugs,and some supplements are BAD. But there are a lot that are also good. True, there is a lot of deceptive advertising with supplements, and the buyer must beware. But there is also deceptive advertising with medications.
And as for profits, the profits of the pharmaceuticals absolutely dwarf the profits of the supplement industry (by over a 10 to 1 margin). 2000 global sales of supplements were around $22 billion. Statins alone exceed that revenue figure.
HubbleRules
:cool:
I have seen depressed people on other forums who absolutely refuse to take anti-depressants due to mental issues they have and seem to think that supplements can help their condition. Well, most often they wind up in very poor condition. St Johns Wort is a big one. It has been shown in clinical trial to help only "mild" depression. But anything more serious needs special medical attention and serious meds that work.
:D
Stumper,
The antidpressant drugs (SSRIs- Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft..) are currently embroiled in a huge controversy about their tendancy to increase suicide and aggression in those that take them. As a matter of fact, the FDA put out a black-box warning on all SSRIs in late 2004 warning patients of the risk of suicide with these drugs. The FDA only does this when there is overwhelming evidence of dangerous side-effects to a drug - usually they ignore complaints of side effects and refuse to take any action (until the adverse reaction reports reach critical mass and can't be ignored any longer).
Shouldn't I consider those who promote and prescibe this class of drugs as widely as they do today to be quacks?
You claim to not be blindly opposed to all supplements, but your posts indicate exactly the opposite. You slam every supplement I can think of...
I think there is plenty of quackery on both sides of the isle to go around. I think some drugs,and some supplements are BAD. But there are a lot that are also good. True, there is a lot of deceptive advertising with supplements, and the buyer must beware. But there is also deceptive advertising with medications.
And as for profits, the profits of the pharmaceuticals absolutely dwarf the profits of the supplement industry (by over a 10 to 1 margin). 2000 global sales of supplements were around $22 billion. Statins alone exceed that revenue figure.
HubbleRules
:cool:
Lenin
06-02-2005, 09:24 AM
Lenin,
Nope, no "dead end there." So, you've been taking Lipitor for 5 years PRIOR to having the stent put in. Evidently, the Lipitor was of no help. And these drugs are hyped as being capable of reducing plaque? It seems like these drugs are being promoted as being good for whatever ails you. Prevents heart disease, alzheimers disease, osteoporosis, etc, etc. Hmm, it seems like pure pharmaceutical quackery to me. :rolleyes:
Nope, you;re grasping at straws!
It has not been SHOWN, only hinted at, that extreme lowering of blood lipids with statins CURED atherosclerosis, only that it prevented its rapid progression and MIGHT cause slight regression over a long period. Since my angina symptoms were similar in 1993 as in 2003 caused by a 95+% blockage of my huge 3.5 mm. main Right Coronalry Artery feeding whole right side of the heart,) I am CERTAIN that the Lipitor allowed me to LIVE to get the stent put in. My cardiologist said that I should have had the stent put in 5 years earlier...and, in my heart of hearts, I knew that but I saw a couple jackass quacks with MD's after their name during the period (they should both be peddling vitamin cures.)
My other blockages are being prevented from growing day after day as they would have continued to grow had I relied on Vitamin E as I had for the previous 40 years. Thanks to Lipitor...a true wonder drug.
If I get some plaque regression, well and good, but if I just get no further accretion of plaque then I am happy, active, strong and chest pain free.
Nope, no "dead end there." So, you've been taking Lipitor for 5 years PRIOR to having the stent put in. Evidently, the Lipitor was of no help. And these drugs are hyped as being capable of reducing plaque? It seems like these drugs are being promoted as being good for whatever ails you. Prevents heart disease, alzheimers disease, osteoporosis, etc, etc. Hmm, it seems like pure pharmaceutical quackery to me. :rolleyes:
Nope, you;re grasping at straws!
It has not been SHOWN, only hinted at, that extreme lowering of blood lipids with statins CURED atherosclerosis, only that it prevented its rapid progression and MIGHT cause slight regression over a long period. Since my angina symptoms were similar in 1993 as in 2003 caused by a 95+% blockage of my huge 3.5 mm. main Right Coronalry Artery feeding whole right side of the heart,) I am CERTAIN that the Lipitor allowed me to LIVE to get the stent put in. My cardiologist said that I should have had the stent put in 5 years earlier...and, in my heart of hearts, I knew that but I saw a couple jackass quacks with MD's after their name during the period (they should both be peddling vitamin cures.)
My other blockages are being prevented from growing day after day as they would have continued to grow had I relied on Vitamin E as I had for the previous 40 years. Thanks to Lipitor...a true wonder drug.
If I get some plaque regression, well and good, but if I just get no further accretion of plaque then I am happy, active, strong and chest pain free.
ARIZONA73
06-02-2005, 07:19 PM
Stumper,
My numbers as of my last blood test were:
TC........234
HDL.......107
LDL........114
Trig.........65
The supplements I take are vitamin C, vitamin E, B-50 complex, niacin, selenium, beta-carotene, folic acid, zinc, CoQ10, garlic, chromium picolinate, saw palmetto, magnesium, calcium, glucosamine sulfate, fish oil, lysine, and acidophillus. Sometimes I'll also take lecithin.
Since the term "supplement" consists of such a broad range of products, I have no doubt that there are many unscrupulous products out there that make bogus claims. And I do not think that anyone should EVER avoid seeking professional medical treatment if they are seriously ill, such as the woman you mentioned. I use supplements as a means of prevention, since I believe certain ones are helpful. Will they allow you to achieve immortality and never again be sick a day in your life? Certainly not. But I think many of them may help, especially since far too many people never come close to eating the perfect diet. Certainly not in our day and age. And most of us surely have our own bad habits, myself included. Nobody's perfect. We can only try to do the best we can with what we have.
My numbers as of my last blood test were:
TC........234
HDL.......107
LDL........114
Trig.........65
The supplements I take are vitamin C, vitamin E, B-50 complex, niacin, selenium, beta-carotene, folic acid, zinc, CoQ10, garlic, chromium picolinate, saw palmetto, magnesium, calcium, glucosamine sulfate, fish oil, lysine, and acidophillus. Sometimes I'll also take lecithin.
Since the term "supplement" consists of such a broad range of products, I have no doubt that there are many unscrupulous products out there that make bogus claims. And I do not think that anyone should EVER avoid seeking professional medical treatment if they are seriously ill, such as the woman you mentioned. I use supplements as a means of prevention, since I believe certain ones are helpful. Will they allow you to achieve immortality and never again be sick a day in your life? Certainly not. But I think many of them may help, especially since far too many people never come close to eating the perfect diet. Certainly not in our day and age. And most of us surely have our own bad habits, myself included. Nobody's perfect. We can only try to do the best we can with what we have.
Stumper
06-02-2005, 08:04 PM
Stumper,
The antidpressant drugs (SSRIs- Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft..) are currently embroiled in a huge controversy about their tendancy to increase suicide and aggression in those that take them. As a matter of fact, the FDA put out a black-box warning on all SSRIs in late 2004 warning patients of the risk of suicide with these drugs. The FDA only does this when there is overwhelming evidence of dangerous side-effects to a drug - usually they ignore complaints of side effects and refuse to take any action (until the adverse reaction reports reach critical mass and can't be ignored any longer).
Hubbles,
If you ask around, and if there are those willing to discuss it with you, you will find that about 50% of those you know have been on anti-depressants for one reason or another. Do you know anyone who has committed suicide? Alot of times individuals are placed on anti-depressants when someone close to them dies in the family. Or Wellbutrin was discovered to help people quit smoking. My brother was on it and it worked! Many of the individuals mentioned by the FDA who have committed suicide were more than likely suicidal to begin with. Depression does that. It can cause a person to totally run away from life and not want to even get out of bed! If you ever have encountered a truly depressed person you would see what I mean. It will cause some to crouch up in corners and cry and threaten to kill themselves. It is serious and must be treated. Herbs and vitamins don't cut it in such cases. If anything anti-depressants can have "opposite" affects if one is getting to much of one. If one is getting the proper dosage and under a good psychiatrist there should be no problems. They truly have given MANY back their lives. I have seen it again and again and again. Just consider stess/anxiety. This alone will cause many people not to want to go anywhere and have panic attacks. Unless you have lived with someone like this ( I do) you could not know what I am speaking about. But it can literally incompacitate an individual. But with some anti-depressant and a little anxiety med like Ativan the change is phenominal. And I do mean it can be miraculous. :)
Shouldn't I consider those who promote and prescibe this class of drugs as widely as they do today to be quacks?
In all areas of the medical profession there is likely to be quacks. But depression, especially clinical is serious business and has to be treated or the risks of suicide could be all the greater. Herbs and vites will not work. It takes real medicine like anti-depressants.
You claim to not be blindly opposed to all supplements, but your posts indicate exactly the opposite. You slam every supplement I can think of...
I think there is plenty of quackery on both sides of the isle to go around. I think some drugs,and some supplements are BAD. But there are a lot that are also good. True, there is a lot of deceptive advertising with supplements, and the buyer must beware. But there is also deceptive advertising with medications.
My mother took supplements and vites by the scores. She paid big dollars for the very best (supposably). She used to split these with another woman that used to visit here to help the costs. My mother died at 73 from liver cancer. Ironically the other womam died of some form of cancer about 5 years later. These things are not the panathea everyone thinks they are. For that matter I think the FDA not long ago was threatening to get on the vite and supplement industry as well for all the false claims!
And as for profits, the profits of the pharmaceuticals absolutely dwarf the profits of the supplement industry (by over a 10 to 1 margin). 2000 global sales of supplements were around $22 billion. Statins alone exceed that revenue figure.
Yes, but there is a big difference here. One does research and clinical studies and one does not! :D
The antidpressant drugs (SSRIs- Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft..) are currently embroiled in a huge controversy about their tendancy to increase suicide and aggression in those that take them. As a matter of fact, the FDA put out a black-box warning on all SSRIs in late 2004 warning patients of the risk of suicide with these drugs. The FDA only does this when there is overwhelming evidence of dangerous side-effects to a drug - usually they ignore complaints of side effects and refuse to take any action (until the adverse reaction reports reach critical mass and can't be ignored any longer).
Hubbles,
If you ask around, and if there are those willing to discuss it with you, you will find that about 50% of those you know have been on anti-depressants for one reason or another. Do you know anyone who has committed suicide? Alot of times individuals are placed on anti-depressants when someone close to them dies in the family. Or Wellbutrin was discovered to help people quit smoking. My brother was on it and it worked! Many of the individuals mentioned by the FDA who have committed suicide were more than likely suicidal to begin with. Depression does that. It can cause a person to totally run away from life and not want to even get out of bed! If you ever have encountered a truly depressed person you would see what I mean. It will cause some to crouch up in corners and cry and threaten to kill themselves. It is serious and must be treated. Herbs and vitamins don't cut it in such cases. If anything anti-depressants can have "opposite" affects if one is getting to much of one. If one is getting the proper dosage and under a good psychiatrist there should be no problems. They truly have given MANY back their lives. I have seen it again and again and again. Just consider stess/anxiety. This alone will cause many people not to want to go anywhere and have panic attacks. Unless you have lived with someone like this ( I do) you could not know what I am speaking about. But it can literally incompacitate an individual. But with some anti-depressant and a little anxiety med like Ativan the change is phenominal. And I do mean it can be miraculous. :)
Shouldn't I consider those who promote and prescibe this class of drugs as widely as they do today to be quacks?
In all areas of the medical profession there is likely to be quacks. But depression, especially clinical is serious business and has to be treated or the risks of suicide could be all the greater. Herbs and vites will not work. It takes real medicine like anti-depressants.
You claim to not be blindly opposed to all supplements, but your posts indicate exactly the opposite. You slam every supplement I can think of...
I think there is plenty of quackery on both sides of the isle to go around. I think some drugs,and some supplements are BAD. But there are a lot that are also good. True, there is a lot of deceptive advertising with supplements, and the buyer must beware. But there is also deceptive advertising with medications.
My mother took supplements and vites by the scores. She paid big dollars for the very best (supposably). She used to split these with another woman that used to visit here to help the costs. My mother died at 73 from liver cancer. Ironically the other womam died of some form of cancer about 5 years later. These things are not the panathea everyone thinks they are. For that matter I think the FDA not long ago was threatening to get on the vite and supplement industry as well for all the false claims!
And as for profits, the profits of the pharmaceuticals absolutely dwarf the profits of the supplement industry (by over a 10 to 1 margin). 2000 global sales of supplements were around $22 billion. Statins alone exceed that revenue figure.
Yes, but there is a big difference here. One does research and clinical studies and one does not! :D
Stumper
06-02-2005, 08:32 PM
My other blockages are being prevented from growing day after day as they would have continued to grow had I relied on Vitamin E as I had for the previous 40 years. Thanks to Lipitor...a true wonder drug.
If I get some plaque regression, well and good, but if I just get no further accretion of plaque then I am happy, active, strong and chest pain free.
Lenin,
This is true and it sounds like you are doing well. :)
The doc told me something similar last week. He said if my Cardiocheck numbers hold and are close to accurate I am considered to be 100% heart attack free. That was good to hear :D
Interesting note: He told me with such numers HDL48 and LDL 51 that my arteries are beginning to clean themselves out. I questioned him to as "How long does that take"? and he said enthusiastically "Not long". Said that the process begins right away and then went into a medical discussion of arterial walls and lining and so forth and then lost me. :D
But he said he noticed a lowering of BP in my numbers which is a result of the Vytorin plus cleansing of the arteries.
If I get some plaque regression, well and good, but if I just get no further accretion of plaque then I am happy, active, strong and chest pain free.
Lenin,
This is true and it sounds like you are doing well. :)
The doc told me something similar last week. He said if my Cardiocheck numbers hold and are close to accurate I am considered to be 100% heart attack free. That was good to hear :D
Interesting note: He told me with such numers HDL48 and LDL 51 that my arteries are beginning to clean themselves out. I questioned him to as "How long does that take"? and he said enthusiastically "Not long". Said that the process begins right away and then went into a medical discussion of arterial walls and lining and so forth and then lost me. :D
But he said he noticed a lowering of BP in my numbers which is a result of the Vytorin plus cleansing of the arteries.
ARIZONA73
06-02-2005, 08:34 PM
Lenin,
I remember you saying some time ago that you initially thought the discomfort you were experiencing was due to heartburn or indigestion, and that's why it took you that long before it was finally diagnosed and treated. I don't recall you ever saying that you were relying on vitamin E to treat it. Even I wouldn't have done that. Anyway, I'm glad things turned out well for you. But I think that if you're going to give credit to anything, it should be to the doctor who cleared the blockage, not the Lipitor.
I remember you saying some time ago that you initially thought the discomfort you were experiencing was due to heartburn or indigestion, and that's why it took you that long before it was finally diagnosed and treated. I don't recall you ever saying that you were relying on vitamin E to treat it. Even I wouldn't have done that. Anyway, I'm glad things turned out well for you. But I think that if you're going to give credit to anything, it should be to the doctor who cleared the blockage, not the Lipitor.
HubbleRules
06-02-2005, 10:44 PM
Hubbles,
If you ask around, and if there are those willing to discuss it with you, you will find that about 50% of those you know have been on anti-depressants for one reason or another. Do you know anyone who has committed suicide?
No - and I also don't know anyone who died of Baycol or Vioxx - but there are still many who did... You're ignoring the fact that the FDA (which is lethargic when it comes to protecting the public) considers them risky enough that they put a black-box warning on them. Some of the recent high-profile shootings (like the recent one by a teenage boy at an Indian reservation) were by children on anti-depressents. I'm sure these drugs help some, but I strongly suspect they, like many other drugs, are grossly over-prescribed due to profit motives.
Yes, but there is a big difference here. One does research and clinical studies and one does not!
You forgot one other difference, the pharmaceuticals have a tremendous financial influence over the FDA New Drug Approval process (they fund the budget), and pay plenty of perks to doctors to peddle their meds, and also have financial ties to most who conduct the 'clinical trials'. The financial conflicts of interest are legion, and even the US Congress realizes this and is working on legislation to put 'public safety' back into the drug-approval process...
Stumper - I realize that there are plenty of good drugs that have saved or improved countless lives. But there are also some out there that are dangerous, or being grossly overprescribed to the wrong people, and the pharmas know it, and are withholding the evidence from the public, with the tacit approval of the FDA, NIH and others in the medical profession.
Sure - there are plenty of 'bad' supplements out there, and plenty of 'quacks' in the field, but there also are studies that indicate many supplements are beneficial. The pharmaceutical industry is lobbying to do all they can to tarnish and eliminate supplements, or better yet, have them reclassified as drugs so that they can control them and sell them at much inflated prices and profits...
Like Deep-Throat said 'Follow the Money'. THere is so much money in prescription drugs today that the system is ROTTEN WITH FINANCIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST...
The profits in drugs make the profits in supplements look like a kids lemonade stand by comparison...
HubbleRules
:cool:
If you ask around, and if there are those willing to discuss it with you, you will find that about 50% of those you know have been on anti-depressants for one reason or another. Do you know anyone who has committed suicide?
No - and I also don't know anyone who died of Baycol or Vioxx - but there are still many who did... You're ignoring the fact that the FDA (which is lethargic when it comes to protecting the public) considers them risky enough that they put a black-box warning on them. Some of the recent high-profile shootings (like the recent one by a teenage boy at an Indian reservation) were by children on anti-depressents. I'm sure these drugs help some, but I strongly suspect they, like many other drugs, are grossly over-prescribed due to profit motives.
Yes, but there is a big difference here. One does research and clinical studies and one does not!
You forgot one other difference, the pharmaceuticals have a tremendous financial influence over the FDA New Drug Approval process (they fund the budget), and pay plenty of perks to doctors to peddle their meds, and also have financial ties to most who conduct the 'clinical trials'. The financial conflicts of interest are legion, and even the US Congress realizes this and is working on legislation to put 'public safety' back into the drug-approval process...
Stumper - I realize that there are plenty of good drugs that have saved or improved countless lives. But there are also some out there that are dangerous, or being grossly overprescribed to the wrong people, and the pharmas know it, and are withholding the evidence from the public, with the tacit approval of the FDA, NIH and others in the medical profession.
Sure - there are plenty of 'bad' supplements out there, and plenty of 'quacks' in the field, but there also are studies that indicate many supplements are beneficial. The pharmaceutical industry is lobbying to do all they can to tarnish and eliminate supplements, or better yet, have them reclassified as drugs so that they can control them and sell them at much inflated prices and profits...
Like Deep-Throat said 'Follow the Money'. THere is so much money in prescription drugs today that the system is ROTTEN WITH FINANCIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST...
The profits in drugs make the profits in supplements look like a kids lemonade stand by comparison...
HubbleRules
:cool:
ARIZONA73
06-02-2005, 11:27 PM
Hubble, my friend, you took the words right out of my mouth!
Stumper
06-03-2005, 12:31 AM
=HubbleRules]No - and I also don't know anyone who died of Baycol or Vioxx - but there are still many who did... You're ignoring the fact that the FDA (which is lethargic when it comes to protecting the public) considers them risky enough that they put a black-box warning on them. Some of the recent high-profile shootings (like the recent one by a teenage boy at an Indian reservation) were by children on anti-depressents. I'm sure these drugs help some, but I strongly suspect they, like many other drugs, are grossly over-prescribed due to profit motives.
Hubbles,
Anti-depressants don't just help some, they help tremendously. I mean tremendously. They are often just short of miraculous.
Ask around. Individuals usually do not like to discuss if they take anti-depressants, unless its on a forum , of course. :D For some reason many people that you know may find it somewhat uncomfortable to do so probably because it involves mental issues. No-one likes to discuss these sort of things unless they are very open and feel they can trust you. But you would be surprized to learn of many women when they reach menopause that need them due to depression. Or you might be interested to discover that your gas station attendant uses them or hosts of people you see every day. I just recently learned that a self employed mechanic I had known for years had to use them for about two years. Why? He said he became so depressed he could no longer run his business. He became afraid of people nd only wanted to sit home in a "safe place". He knew he had a problem, sought a psychiatrist, was given the proper anti-depressants and anxiety meds and he said in *one* weekend he was back to work on Monday feeling so much better and functional.
I am not ignoring the FDA warnings on anti-depressants. It is true that if they are misused they can have an opposite affect just like any other med. Usually this can occur if one was to use to much of one. But a good doctor will know how much is needed.
I know of a man I work with whose son slashed his wrists in High School. Yes, he tried to kill himself. This man got him to a Psychiatrist, he was put on Paxil for two years and it indeed helped him through his tuff times. He is now in his early 20's and no longer needs it and is doing fine.
My future possible Son-in-law told me that one morning he could not get out of bed, He was disfunctional and disoriented. He did not know why but he just couldn't go to work. He went to a Psychiatrist and was put on Paxil and now goes to work, full time, and is doing great again.
Sorry Hubbles, but herbs or vites won't cut it in these cases. It takes serious meds.
I will guarantee you that many people you see every day of your life are on these, I will guarantee it, you just don't know it. :D, because they are doing so well on them :D And I am sure that none of them plan on suicide, or killing someone.
You forgot one other difference, the pharmaceuticals have a tremendous financial influence over the FDA New Drug Approval process (they fund the budget), and pay plenty of perks to doctors to peddle their meds, and also have financial ties to most who conduct the 'clinical trials'. The financial conflicts of interest are legion, and even the US Congress realizes this and is working on legislation to put 'public safety' back into the drug-approval process...
This is rediculous. Would you prefer that the only things available to us is herbs and vites in a serious condition of health?
Is that what you want a doctor to give you when you go in for a serious illness? Or would you want something that works? I prefer something that works and works fast.
Penecillin is still an absolute wonder, and many of the antibiotics. Thank God for these drugs. If we did not have simple vacinations many of us would would not be posting here right now.
Stumper - I realize that there are plenty of good drugs that have saved or improved countless lives. But there are also some out there that are dangerous, or being grossly overprescribed to the wrong people, and the pharmas know it, and are withholding the evidence from the public, with the tacit approval of the FDA, NIH and others in the medical profession.
How are they witholding info? All you have to do is read the insert on the med and it gives all the clinical trials and possible side affects.
Sure - there are plenty of 'bad' supplements out there, and plenty of 'quacks' in the field, but there also are studies that indicate many supplements are beneficial. The pharmaceutical industry is lobbying to do all they can to tarnish and eliminate supplements, or better yet, have them reclassified as drugs so that they can control them and sell them at much inflated prices and profits...
Yes, I agree. If you find a study (genuine) that indicates certain supplements are beneficial then they may ideed be beneficial.
Like Deep-Throat said 'Follow the Money'. THere is so much money in prescription drugs today that the system is ROTTEN WITH FINANCIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST...
The profits in drugs make the profits in supplements look like a kids lemonade stand by comparison...
Yes, the profits may be greater, and so is the reasearch and studies and so is the results. :D
Hubbles,
Anti-depressants don't just help some, they help tremendously. I mean tremendously. They are often just short of miraculous.
Ask around. Individuals usually do not like to discuss if they take anti-depressants, unless its on a forum , of course. :D For some reason many people that you know may find it somewhat uncomfortable to do so probably because it involves mental issues. No-one likes to discuss these sort of things unless they are very open and feel they can trust you. But you would be surprized to learn of many women when they reach menopause that need them due to depression. Or you might be interested to discover that your gas station attendant uses them or hosts of people you see every day. I just recently learned that a self employed mechanic I had known for years had to use them for about two years. Why? He said he became so depressed he could no longer run his business. He became afraid of people nd only wanted to sit home in a "safe place". He knew he had a problem, sought a psychiatrist, was given the proper anti-depressants and anxiety meds and he said in *one* weekend he was back to work on Monday feeling so much better and functional.
I am not ignoring the FDA warnings on anti-depressants. It is true that if they are misused they can have an opposite affect just like any other med. Usually this can occur if one was to use to much of one. But a good doctor will know how much is needed.
I know of a man I work with whose son slashed his wrists in High School. Yes, he tried to kill himself. This man got him to a Psychiatrist, he was put on Paxil for two years and it indeed helped him through his tuff times. He is now in his early 20's and no longer needs it and is doing fine.
My future possible Son-in-law told me that one morning he could not get out of bed, He was disfunctional and disoriented. He did not know why but he just couldn't go to work. He went to a Psychiatrist and was put on Paxil and now goes to work, full time, and is doing great again.
Sorry Hubbles, but herbs or vites won't cut it in these cases. It takes serious meds.
I will guarantee you that many people you see every day of your life are on these, I will guarantee it, you just don't know it. :D, because they are doing so well on them :D And I am sure that none of them plan on suicide, or killing someone.
You forgot one other difference, the pharmaceuticals have a tremendous financial influence over the FDA New Drug Approval process (they fund the budget), and pay plenty of perks to doctors to peddle their meds, and also have financial ties to most who conduct the 'clinical trials'. The financial conflicts of interest are legion, and even the US Congress realizes this and is working on legislation to put 'public safety' back into the drug-approval process...
This is rediculous. Would you prefer that the only things available to us is herbs and vites in a serious condition of health?
Is that what you want a doctor to give you when you go in for a serious illness? Or would you want something that works? I prefer something that works and works fast.
Penecillin is still an absolute wonder, and many of the antibiotics. Thank God for these drugs. If we did not have simple vacinations many of us would would not be posting here right now.
Stumper - I realize that there are plenty of good drugs that have saved or improved countless lives. But there are also some out there that are dangerous, or being grossly overprescribed to the wrong people, and the pharmas know it, and are withholding the evidence from the public, with the tacit approval of the FDA, NIH and others in the medical profession.
How are they witholding info? All you have to do is read the insert on the med and it gives all the clinical trials and possible side affects.
Sure - there are plenty of 'bad' supplements out there, and plenty of 'quacks' in the field, but there also are studies that indicate many supplements are beneficial. The pharmaceutical industry is lobbying to do all they can to tarnish and eliminate supplements, or better yet, have them reclassified as drugs so that they can control them and sell them at much inflated prices and profits...
Yes, I agree. If you find a study (genuine) that indicates certain supplements are beneficial then they may ideed be beneficial.
Like Deep-Throat said 'Follow the Money'. THere is so much money in prescription drugs today that the system is ROTTEN WITH FINANCIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST...
The profits in drugs make the profits in supplements look like a kids lemonade stand by comparison...
Yes, the profits may be greater, and so is the reasearch and studies and so is the results. :D
Stumper
06-03-2005, 01:00 AM
Hubbles,
And BTW, I personally do not want to see supplements disbanded either. I think that to those who feel they help them, more power to them. But I am still going to say that alot of claims are bogus and are not supported by clinical studies whereas meds are.
I often wander over to the supplement isles at Walmart and examine the claims. I could spend lots, and have, on these claims. The supplement industry knows how to sell really really well.
And BTW, I personally do not want to see supplements disbanded either. I think that to those who feel they help them, more power to them. But I am still going to say that alot of claims are bogus and are not supported by clinical studies whereas meds are.
I often wander over to the supplement isles at Walmart and examine the claims. I could spend lots, and have, on these claims. The supplement industry knows how to sell really really well.
JJ
06-03-2005, 01:21 AM
Stumper...I agree there are folks out there that REALLY need some of these anti depressents, but I also think they are given too freely, especially to kids. If someone is so depressed they can't get out of bed, they really need to seek professional help, and a pill after one visit is not the answer.
I'm not saying supplements will do any good either, just that drs. are getting way too eager to toss folks pills instead of getting to the root of a problem. We all go thru a period in time of being depressed over something, but popping pills to me is just not the answer unless every other avenue has been explored. JMHO
I'm not saying supplements will do any good either, just that drs. are getting way too eager to toss folks pills instead of getting to the root of a problem. We all go thru a period in time of being depressed over something, but popping pills to me is just not the answer unless every other avenue has been explored. JMHO
HubbleRules
06-03-2005, 06:51 AM
Stumper,
You are misinterpreting each of my posts - so it is meaningless to continue this discourse.
I have not said all meds are bad, I've gone to great lengths to imply the opposite. You keep inferring that I'm against meds, and I am not, but there are tremendous financial conflicts of interest with meds that you conveniently totally ignore.
Please don't give me any more anectdotal observations from your own personal life about medications or supplements. I know people on anti-depressents, my wife is one of them. I still think they are GROSSLY OVERPRESCRIBED. We can duel with personal anectdotal stories from our personal experience until the cows come home and still not prove a thing one way or another.
You're the one saying supplements are quack therapy. I've been trying to shed a little info on the subject to indicate things are not just Black or White, but somewhere in between, and that there are good and bad supplements, good and bad medications.
Let's just agree to disagree....
HubbleRules
:cool:
You are misinterpreting each of my posts - so it is meaningless to continue this discourse.
I have not said all meds are bad, I've gone to great lengths to imply the opposite. You keep inferring that I'm against meds, and I am not, but there are tremendous financial conflicts of interest with meds that you conveniently totally ignore.
Please don't give me any more anectdotal observations from your own personal life about medications or supplements. I know people on anti-depressents, my wife is one of them. I still think they are GROSSLY OVERPRESCRIBED. We can duel with personal anectdotal stories from our personal experience until the cows come home and still not prove a thing one way or another.
You're the one saying supplements are quack therapy. I've been trying to shed a little info on the subject to indicate things are not just Black or White, but somewhere in between, and that there are good and bad supplements, good and bad medications.
Let's just agree to disagree....
HubbleRules
:cool:
Lenin
06-03-2005, 10:20 AM
BIG DIFFERENCE:
Pharmaceutical drugs MUST undergo extensive and expensive testing for SAFETY and EFFICACY before being put on the market. Certain drugs show detrimental effects after they are in the population and thus must be reconsidered year after year and recalled when necessary. In some cases a warning is appended.
SUPPLEMENTS need not prove either SAFETY NOR EFFICACY and can be pulled only after the FDA determines, at taxpayer expense that they are dangerous. Since supplements are not approved nor disapproved the only requirement that is SUPPOSED to keep them form going overboard is the legal proscription against claiming any "curative" or "preventative" effects on any disease. The purveyors are ignoring this law and the government is too politically cowardly to act.
Personally, I think I should be able to buy ANY drug or supplement without prescription or legal restraint...and that goes from Vitamin C through Heroin, barbiturates and androgens. But the law is the law, and I respect it. Unfortunately the Vitamin hucksters who claim the potions THEY are selling "cure" everything from cancer and heart disease, through AIDS and Alzheimers...oh I saw Lou Gehrig's disease "curred" last week... do NOT.
These charlatans should be jailed as the law provides.
Often the most dangerous and blatant quacks, like Matthias Rath, operate outside the U.S. borders, thus avoiding prosecution. (His Foundation WAS shut down in South Africa though...a glimmer of hope.)
How about a drug label on all supplements saying:
SUPPLEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN TO BE OF ANY BENEFIT WHEN TAKEN IN DOSES ABOVE THE RDA...THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO CURE DISEASE AND IT IS ILLEGAL TO MAKE SUCH CLAIMS!
Pharmaceutical drugs MUST undergo extensive and expensive testing for SAFETY and EFFICACY before being put on the market. Certain drugs show detrimental effects after they are in the population and thus must be reconsidered year after year and recalled when necessary. In some cases a warning is appended.
SUPPLEMENTS need not prove either SAFETY NOR EFFICACY and can be pulled only after the FDA determines, at taxpayer expense that they are dangerous. Since supplements are not approved nor disapproved the only requirement that is SUPPOSED to keep them form going overboard is the legal proscription against claiming any "curative" or "preventative" effects on any disease. The purveyors are ignoring this law and the government is too politically cowardly to act.
Personally, I think I should be able to buy ANY drug or supplement without prescription or legal restraint...and that goes from Vitamin C through Heroin, barbiturates and androgens. But the law is the law, and I respect it. Unfortunately the Vitamin hucksters who claim the potions THEY are selling "cure" everything from cancer and heart disease, through AIDS and Alzheimers...oh I saw Lou Gehrig's disease "curred" last week... do NOT.
These charlatans should be jailed as the law provides.
Often the most dangerous and blatant quacks, like Matthias Rath, operate outside the U.S. borders, thus avoiding prosecution. (His Foundation WAS shut down in South Africa though...a glimmer of hope.)
How about a drug label on all supplements saying:
SUPPLEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN TO BE OF ANY BENEFIT WHEN TAKEN IN DOSES ABOVE THE RDA...THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO CURE DISEASE AND IT IS ILLEGAL TO MAKE SUCH CLAIMS!
Stumper
06-03-2005, 04:25 PM
Stumper...I agree there are folks out there that REALLY need some of these anti depressents, but I also think they are given too freely, especially to kids. If someone is so depressed they can't get out of bed, they really need to seek professional help, and a pill after one visit is not the answer.
I'm not saying supplements will do any good either, just that drs. are getting way too eager to toss folks pills instead of getting to the root of a problem. We all go thru a period in time of being depressed over something, but popping pills to me is just not the answer unless every other avenue has been explored. JMHO
JJ,
There is alot of people out there that need anti-depressants. The brain, just like any other organ in the body can malfunction.
When someone is that depressed that they cannot get out of bed, or they suffer from OCD or from Schizoprenia, believe me, they always do or should get professional help. And the first order of help is always meds followed up by therapy. That is just a fact. Supplements will not work in such cases and that is a fact as well.
Unless you have encountered a truly depressed person , or some other mental disorder you would not understand what it actually is. The patient not only suffers but the entire family does as well. It will rip families apart. It is a serious issue.
But I will agree that in cases of mild depression that some therapy may be enough without meds, but it is important than one obtain relief however possible.
I'm not saying supplements will do any good either, just that drs. are getting way too eager to toss folks pills instead of getting to the root of a problem. We all go thru a period in time of being depressed over something, but popping pills to me is just not the answer unless every other avenue has been explored. JMHO
JJ,
There is alot of people out there that need anti-depressants. The brain, just like any other organ in the body can malfunction.
When someone is that depressed that they cannot get out of bed, or they suffer from OCD or from Schizoprenia, believe me, they always do or should get professional help. And the first order of help is always meds followed up by therapy. That is just a fact. Supplements will not work in such cases and that is a fact as well.
Unless you have encountered a truly depressed person , or some other mental disorder you would not understand what it actually is. The patient not only suffers but the entire family does as well. It will rip families apart. It is a serious issue.
But I will agree that in cases of mild depression that some therapy may be enough without meds, but it is important than one obtain relief however possible.
Stumper
06-03-2005, 04:38 PM
Stumper,
You are misinterpreting each of my posts - so it is meaningless to continue this discourse.
I have not said all meds are bad, I've gone to great lengths to imply the opposite. You keep inferring that I'm against meds, and I am not, but there are tremendous financial conflicts of interest with meds that you conveniently totally ignore.
Please don't give me any more anectdotal observations from your own personal life about medications or supplements. I know people on anti-depressents, my wife is one of them. I still think they are GROSSLY OVERPRESCRIBED. We can duel with personal anectdotal stories from our personal experience until the cows come home and still not prove a thing one way or another.
You're the one saying supplements are quack therapy. I've been trying to shed a little info on the subject to indicate things are not just Black or White, but somewhere in between, and that there are good and bad supplements, good and bad medications.
Let's just agree to disagree....
HubbleRules
:cool:
Hubbles,
If there truly is financial conflicts of interest what does it really matter? The meds still have to go through rigorous FDA approval and by and large they do work.
I cannot say supplements are quack therapy or not because they are not tested or gone through rigorous FDA approval. All I can go by is the claims. So if one uses them, then well, I guess he only has claims to support whether they will work for him/her or not, nothing more.
So I guess, we can agree to disagree :)
You are misinterpreting each of my posts - so it is meaningless to continue this discourse.
I have not said all meds are bad, I've gone to great lengths to imply the opposite. You keep inferring that I'm against meds, and I am not, but there are tremendous financial conflicts of interest with meds that you conveniently totally ignore.
Please don't give me any more anectdotal observations from your own personal life about medications or supplements. I know people on anti-depressents, my wife is one of them. I still think they are GROSSLY OVERPRESCRIBED. We can duel with personal anectdotal stories from our personal experience until the cows come home and still not prove a thing one way or another.
You're the one saying supplements are quack therapy. I've been trying to shed a little info on the subject to indicate things are not just Black or White, but somewhere in between, and that there are good and bad supplements, good and bad medications.
Let's just agree to disagree....
HubbleRules
:cool:
Hubbles,
If there truly is financial conflicts of interest what does it really matter? The meds still have to go through rigorous FDA approval and by and large they do work.
I cannot say supplements are quack therapy or not because they are not tested or gone through rigorous FDA approval. All I can go by is the claims. So if one uses them, then well, I guess he only has claims to support whether they will work for him/her or not, nothing more.
So I guess, we can agree to disagree :)
Stumper
06-03-2005, 04:45 PM
Oh, and BTW, an interesting note here and maybe Lenin can shed some light on this.
I had heard that drugs used for animals are often the same ones used for humans and if one knew the dosages one could save oodles on a variety of meds for different ailments.
NOW, I am not advocating taking animal meds, :D or that one should try it, but this is intersting to note.
I had heard that drugs used for animals are often the same ones used for humans and if one knew the dosages one could save oodles on a variety of meds for different ailments.
NOW, I am not advocating taking animal meds, :D or that one should try it, but this is intersting to note.
JJ
06-03-2005, 04:49 PM
I think U just almost repeated exactly what I said. I made no mention of vitamins helping, and said if someone is extremely depressed, YES, they should seek help. My point is if someone is midly depressed, popping pills is not the answer, the cause of the depression needs to be found.
Trust me, I have known someone who was VERY depressed, and received very good therapy along with a mild pill. Once the root of the problem was discovered, the person was able to toss the meds and is leading a very healthy, and NON depressed life.
As I said before, some drs. just toss U a pill and never follow up on the problem, that is just plain old stupid. I also don't believe in alot of kids getting meds. for being hyper, as most kids are a bit hyper. If they really have a brain disorder, that is a different story, but being mildy hyper does NOT require meds., and yet drs. shove them on them. My youngest was always on the hyper side, and still is, but he certainly isn't in need of meds., that is just his personality. He has a very fast paced job in the music industry, so being a bit hyper is a plus, it keeps him going when need be. Fortuneately, he knows when to "chill out" and relax, and thank the good Lord above, is in very good health..... :)
Trust me, I have known someone who was VERY depressed, and received very good therapy along with a mild pill. Once the root of the problem was discovered, the person was able to toss the meds and is leading a very healthy, and NON depressed life.
As I said before, some drs. just toss U a pill and never follow up on the problem, that is just plain old stupid. I also don't believe in alot of kids getting meds. for being hyper, as most kids are a bit hyper. If they really have a brain disorder, that is a different story, but being mildy hyper does NOT require meds., and yet drs. shove them on them. My youngest was always on the hyper side, and still is, but he certainly isn't in need of meds., that is just his personality. He has a very fast paced job in the music industry, so being a bit hyper is a plus, it keeps him going when need be. Fortuneately, he knows when to "chill out" and relax, and thank the good Lord above, is in very good health..... :)
gardeninggal
06-03-2005, 06:16 PM
STUMPER: These last posts have been very interesting to read. I also think you are a little hard on suppliments. Many work as well as prescribed drugs and in fact some are from herbs themself. Red Rice Yeast is a mild form of Lovastatin and believe me Red Rice Yeast has been around long before the statins. We have poo pooed the Asian countries medicines until lately and now we are using them. I myself have controlled my Arrythmia with cheap priced magnesium with only good side effects like heart health and lower blood pressure. Now I could have taken a drug with terrible side effects. Also when I had badder infections I cured them with Olive leaf extract and corn silk caps. I could have taken some antibiotic and killed all the good bacteria in my gut but why when I get great results this way and no bad side effects. Doctors who are pill pushers don't take time to look into these because they have to answer to clinic boards and they are not going to promote herbs. No company is going to give them "perks" for suggesting herbs. But I will tell you should you be so unlucky to end up in the emergency room with a full blown heart attack guess what will be in your interveinous drip "Magnesium". ;)
ARIZONA73
06-03-2005, 07:18 PM
JJ,
You are SO RIGHT when you said that far too many drugs are being prescribed to children nowadays. Kids feeling a little blue? Never mind dealing with the problem. Just dope them up. Is your kid hyperactive and inattentive in school? Well, just dope him up with some Ritalin. That'll do the trick! But don't ever so much as touch the kid, or dare to lay a hand on him! When I was a kid, nobody was taking any of this garbage. A good swift kick in the *** usually did the trick.
You are SO RIGHT when you said that far too many drugs are being prescribed to children nowadays. Kids feeling a little blue? Never mind dealing with the problem. Just dope them up. Is your kid hyperactive and inattentive in school? Well, just dope him up with some Ritalin. That'll do the trick! But don't ever so much as touch the kid, or dare to lay a hand on him! When I was a kid, nobody was taking any of this garbage. A good swift kick in the *** usually did the trick.
JJ
06-03-2005, 07:44 PM
Oh Arizona, U don't want to know all the times that conversation goes on between me, hubby and our friends..... :D
I crack up when I see that Super Nanny show, geez, noone gave me any help when I was raising my kids. I had the first 2, 13 months apart, so it was like having twins, but I dealt with it. Hubby always worked nights, so he didn't get to play daddy much, but did the best he could. Poor guy usually had to hold down a PT job in the mornings also so we could get by. Like U said, God forbid U smack a child these days, U will be in jail.
One phrase I can't stand is "I can't cope". Seems the slightest thing that goes wrong is a major thing and noone can cope, what a crock! No wonder so many people are on meds., it the new CURE ALL!! Seems people don't want to work out anything, so pop a pill and the world is WONDERFUL!!.. :D
Oh Lordy, God help the next generation.... :eek: :eek: :eek:
BTW...No wonder teachers, police etc. have no authority, they try to do their jobs, and they get in trouble for it. Getting to be a sad and scarey world these days.
I crack up when I see that Super Nanny show, geez, noone gave me any help when I was raising my kids. I had the first 2, 13 months apart, so it was like having twins, but I dealt with it. Hubby always worked nights, so he didn't get to play daddy much, but did the best he could. Poor guy usually had to hold down a PT job in the mornings also so we could get by. Like U said, God forbid U smack a child these days, U will be in jail.
One phrase I can't stand is "I can't cope". Seems the slightest thing that goes wrong is a major thing and noone can cope, what a crock! No wonder so many people are on meds., it the new CURE ALL!! Seems people don't want to work out anything, so pop a pill and the world is WONDERFUL!!.. :D
Oh Lordy, God help the next generation.... :eek: :eek: :eek:
BTW...No wonder teachers, police etc. have no authority, they try to do their jobs, and they get in trouble for it. Getting to be a sad and scarey world these days.
HubbleRules
06-03-2005, 07:54 PM
Hubbles,
If there truly is financial conflicts of interest what does it really matter? The meds still have to go through rigorous FDA approval and by and large they do work.
You're kidding, right? So what if there are financial conflicts of interest??? The FDA Approval Process is funded by the pharmaceuticals...
If you can't appreciate the possible confict of interest, and the negative effect on drug safety, I have to say I'm astounded...
Like Arizona said, there really is something to the cognitive impairment caused by statins.
I rest my case - I couldn't have presented a better arguement against statins than you have.
HubbleRUles
:cool:
If there truly is financial conflicts of interest what does it really matter? The meds still have to go through rigorous FDA approval and by and large they do work.
You're kidding, right? So what if there are financial conflicts of interest??? The FDA Approval Process is funded by the pharmaceuticals...
If you can't appreciate the possible confict of interest, and the negative effect on drug safety, I have to say I'm astounded...
Like Arizona said, there really is something to the cognitive impairment caused by statins.
I rest my case - I couldn't have presented a better arguement against statins than you have.
HubbleRUles
:cool:
ARIZONA73
06-03-2005, 08:21 PM
JJ,
When I was a kid, I was actually AFRAID of ever getting in trouble in school. That was bad enough, but not nearly as bad as what would happen if my parents found out. And I don't mean that they would go to the school and start yelling at the teacher for being so mean and disrespectful to their poor little innocent child. No, I would be the one who would "get it." That's the problem nowadays. There is far too much pampering going on. It doesn't do the kid one bit of good. They become spoiled, lack discipline, and feel that THEY are the victims of any misfortune that comes their way. And it follows them right into adulthood. What a way to grow up!
If I had my way, kids would be required to wear uniforms to school. Schools would be run very much like military schools. DISCIPLINE and RESPECT would be emphasized from a very early age. There are quite a few immigrants from India who work at my company. Their children not only possess a lot of self-discipline and respect, but most of them turned out to be honor students and outstanding members of our society with very well paying jobs in professional fields, such as medicine and forensic science. This is NO COINCIDENCE. This stems from the values which have been instilled in them by parents who were part of an entirely different culture. In India, children are taught respect and discipline from an early age.
When I was a kid, I was actually AFRAID of ever getting in trouble in school. That was bad enough, but not nearly as bad as what would happen if my parents found out. And I don't mean that they would go to the school and start yelling at the teacher for being so mean and disrespectful to their poor little innocent child. No, I would be the one who would "get it." That's the problem nowadays. There is far too much pampering going on. It doesn't do the kid one bit of good. They become spoiled, lack discipline, and feel that THEY are the victims of any misfortune that comes their way. And it follows them right into adulthood. What a way to grow up!
If I had my way, kids would be required to wear uniforms to school. Schools would be run very much like military schools. DISCIPLINE and RESPECT would be emphasized from a very early age. There are quite a few immigrants from India who work at my company. Their children not only possess a lot of self-discipline and respect, but most of them turned out to be honor students and outstanding members of our society with very well paying jobs in professional fields, such as medicine and forensic science. This is NO COINCIDENCE. This stems from the values which have been instilled in them by parents who were part of an entirely different culture. In India, children are taught respect and discipline from an early age.
JJ
06-03-2005, 08:44 PM
Oh I hear ya Arizona. Hubby always says the same thing, if he got in trouble his dad would ask why. After listening to hubby try to explain, he would get another smack or grounded. LOL Like he says, he always got a "double dose".
I really can't say I would like uniforms, but I sure would love to see some of these kids, especially the guys going to school, have their pants somewhere around their waist. When my daughter was in 8th grade, they finally accepted slacks, BUT, only during the winter months due to snow and ice.
My oldest son went to the AFA after high school, and when I went to visit for parent's weekend, I was told, "You raised him very well, as he is indeed very polite and shows respect". I wasn't exceptionally strict, but there were rules, and everyone was expected to abide by them, if not, oh well, someone lost some play time or tv time.
These modern parents to me, seem to want to be their kids friends more then their parents. Maybe this is a way of not having to "cope" with the responsibility of teaching them right from wrong???? All I know is, I did the best I could, never had to bail a kid out of jail, or deal with a drug problem, so what little problems they did cause me, I feel blessed. Now they are all grown, on their own and doing pretty well, so I must have done something right...... :D
Have a good one, and hope your weather is better then ours.... :wave:
I really can't say I would like uniforms, but I sure would love to see some of these kids, especially the guys going to school, have their pants somewhere around their waist. When my daughter was in 8th grade, they finally accepted slacks, BUT, only during the winter months due to snow and ice.
My oldest son went to the AFA after high school, and when I went to visit for parent's weekend, I was told, "You raised him very well, as he is indeed very polite and shows respect". I wasn't exceptionally strict, but there were rules, and everyone was expected to abide by them, if not, oh well, someone lost some play time or tv time.
These modern parents to me, seem to want to be their kids friends more then their parents. Maybe this is a way of not having to "cope" with the responsibility of teaching them right from wrong???? All I know is, I did the best I could, never had to bail a kid out of jail, or deal with a drug problem, so what little problems they did cause me, I feel blessed. Now they are all grown, on their own and doing pretty well, so I must have done something right...... :D
Have a good one, and hope your weather is better then ours.... :wave:
ARIZONA73
06-03-2005, 08:57 PM
JJ,
No, I'm afraid our weather is not much better than yours. It's rather dreary. It's cloudy and damp, with mostly drizzle and light rain. :(
No, I'm afraid our weather is not much better than yours. It's rather dreary. It's cloudy and damp, with mostly drizzle and light rain. :(
JJ
06-03-2005, 09:13 PM
Yeah, I keep forgetting, I think your in N.J., so your going thru the same weather pattern. Geez, it has been one lousy spring huh? Oh well, kick back, put your feet up and be good to yourself.... :cool:
ARIZONA73
06-03-2005, 09:42 PM
JJ,
Yes, it's a good night to sit back and watch another episode of Columbo. I just bought the complete second season edition on DVD. I already bought the complete first season edition. I don't remember how many years they ran, but if possible I'd like to own them all. I never get tired of watching Columbo. Take care and have a nice weekend. :wave:
Yes, it's a good night to sit back and watch another episode of Columbo. I just bought the complete second season edition on DVD. I already bought the complete first season edition. I don't remember how many years they ran, but if possible I'd like to own them all. I never get tired of watching Columbo. Take care and have a nice weekend. :wave:
JJ
06-03-2005, 09:51 PM
Oh Lordy, U are lucky, I LOVED that show and still watch reruns when they are on. That show was one of my favorites, he use to crack me up, and there was always a good storyline. Enjoy..... :wave:
Better scoot and sweep the floors, as the good ole rain is on our doorstep, and it is getting fairly muggy. Hope there is a decent movie on tonight, not much else worth watching.
Better scoot and sweep the floors, as the good ole rain is on our doorstep, and it is getting fairly muggy. Hope there is a decent movie on tonight, not much else worth watching.
Stumper
06-04-2005, 12:43 AM
STUMPER: These last posts have been very interesting to read. I also think you are a little hard on suppliments. Many work as well as prescribed drugs and in fact some are from herbs themself. Red Rice Yeast is a mild form of Lovastatin and believe me Red Rice Yeast has been around long before the statins. We have poo pooed the Asian countries medicines until lately and now we are using them. I myself have controlled my Arrythmia with cheap priced magnesium with only good side effects like heart health and lower blood pressure. Now I could have taken a drug with terrible side effects. Also when I had badder infections I cured them with Olive leaf extract and corn silk caps. I could have taken some antibiotic and killed all the good bacteria in my gut but why when I get great results this way and no bad side effects. Doctors who are pill pushers don't take time to look into these because they have to answer to clinic boards and they are not going to promote herbs. No company is going to give them "perks" for suggesting herbs. But I will tell you should you be so unlucky to end up in the emergency room with a full blown heart attack guess what will be in your interveinous drip "Magnesium". ;)
Gardeningal,
Just keep in mind that whatever you take in the form of supplements only has claims, nothing more unless they have been evaluated by the FDA. This is stated on every bottle of supplements.
When I was growing up I used to get severe sore throats. Very very severe. One time I had one so severe that I develped a pocket of pus in the back of my throat about the size of a large half dollar. My mother pushed and pushed the vitamins with massive amounts of vitamin C down my throat at which I could hardly swallow or open my mouth much more than my thumbs thickness.
I was 15 at the time and finally got up during the night went down to my parents bedroom and cried and told them I could not take it anymore. My dad (and hero) popped a cork, lit into my mother and demanded to take me to the hospital. My mother actually fought with him telling him that I needed more time on the vites. My dad didn't buy it (thank God) and very angrily at her was getting dressed to take me in. My mother FINALLY succombed and said no, she will take me in. She did. I went in through the emergency recieved two lage shots in my butt (LARGE SHOTS) liquid penecillin AND they wanted to actually lance that pocket of pus in my throat. My mother also recieved a rebuke from the doctor for neglecting the situation that needed REAL medical treatment. Withing 48 hours I was much much better.
Don't get me wrong, I loved my mother but in many cases supplements will not cut it as they are only claims. My mother loved her supplements but she was somewhat blind to real needs because of it.
I very easily could have developed scarlet fever with heart injury over something like this.
Unless supplements have been tested and ran through trials they are only claims, nothing more.
Meds have clinical research behind them and are known to work.
What would make you think that supplements have no side affects? I knew someone that actually turned "orange" from drinking to much carrot juice.
Gardeningal,
Just keep in mind that whatever you take in the form of supplements only has claims, nothing more unless they have been evaluated by the FDA. This is stated on every bottle of supplements.
When I was growing up I used to get severe sore throats. Very very severe. One time I had one so severe that I develped a pocket of pus in the back of my throat about the size of a large half dollar. My mother pushed and pushed the vitamins with massive amounts of vitamin C down my throat at which I could hardly swallow or open my mouth much more than my thumbs thickness.
I was 15 at the time and finally got up during the night went down to my parents bedroom and cried and told them I could not take it anymore. My dad (and hero) popped a cork, lit into my mother and demanded to take me to the hospital. My mother actually fought with him telling him that I needed more time on the vites. My dad didn't buy it (thank God) and very angrily at her was getting dressed to take me in. My mother FINALLY succombed and said no, she will take me in. She did. I went in through the emergency recieved two lage shots in my butt (LARGE SHOTS) liquid penecillin AND they wanted to actually lance that pocket of pus in my throat. My mother also recieved a rebuke from the doctor for neglecting the situation that needed REAL medical treatment. Withing 48 hours I was much much better.
Don't get me wrong, I loved my mother but in many cases supplements will not cut it as they are only claims. My mother loved her supplements but she was somewhat blind to real needs because of it.
I very easily could have developed scarlet fever with heart injury over something like this.
Unless supplements have been tested and ran through trials they are only claims, nothing more.
Meds have clinical research behind them and are known to work.
What would make you think that supplements have no side affects? I knew someone that actually turned "orange" from drinking to much carrot juice.
HubbleRules
06-04-2005, 02:47 AM
Gardeningal,
Just keep in mind that whatever you take in the form of supplements only has claims, nothing more unless they have been evaluated by the FDA. This is stated on every bottle of supplements.
This is a patently untrue statement. Get your facts straight please... I am looking at my bottles of vitamin supplements, and not one has the statement you claim they all have. I do have a bottle of Policosanol, and it has an FDA required statement to the effect that 'this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent heart disease'. By Law, only drugs are allowed to claim they treat or cure disease.
In comparison, Lipitor also contains a statement that 'Lipitor has not been show to prevent heart attacks or heart disease'.
When I was growing up I used to get severe sore throats. Very very severe. One time I had one so severe that I develped a pocket of pus in the back of my throat about the size of a large half dollar. My mother pushed and pushed the vitamins with massive amounts of vitamin C down my throat at which I could hardly swallow or open my mouth much more than my thumbs thickness.
I was 15 at the time and finally got up during the night went down to my parents bedroom and cried and told them I could not take it anymore. My dad (and hero) popped a cork, lit into my mother and demanded to take me to the hospital. My mother actually fought with him telling him that I needed more time on the vites. My dad didn't buy it (thank God) and very angrily at her was getting dressed to take me in. My mother FINALLY succombed and said no, she will take me in. She did.
Now I understand your obsession to slam all supplements. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your mother and vitamins - it must have been hard having a mother who continually pushed them on you against your will. It is only human nature to rebell against this kind of treatment.
HubbleRules
:cool:
Just keep in mind that whatever you take in the form of supplements only has claims, nothing more unless they have been evaluated by the FDA. This is stated on every bottle of supplements.
This is a patently untrue statement. Get your facts straight please... I am looking at my bottles of vitamin supplements, and not one has the statement you claim they all have. I do have a bottle of Policosanol, and it has an FDA required statement to the effect that 'this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent heart disease'. By Law, only drugs are allowed to claim they treat or cure disease.
In comparison, Lipitor also contains a statement that 'Lipitor has not been show to prevent heart attacks or heart disease'.
When I was growing up I used to get severe sore throats. Very very severe. One time I had one so severe that I develped a pocket of pus in the back of my throat about the size of a large half dollar. My mother pushed and pushed the vitamins with massive amounts of vitamin C down my throat at which I could hardly swallow or open my mouth much more than my thumbs thickness.
I was 15 at the time and finally got up during the night went down to my parents bedroom and cried and told them I could not take it anymore. My dad (and hero) popped a cork, lit into my mother and demanded to take me to the hospital. My mother actually fought with him telling him that I needed more time on the vites. My dad didn't buy it (thank God) and very angrily at her was getting dressed to take me in. My mother FINALLY succombed and said no, she will take me in. She did.
Now I understand your obsession to slam all supplements. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your mother and vitamins - it must have been hard having a mother who continually pushed them on you against your will. It is only human nature to rebell against this kind of treatment.
HubbleRules
:cool:
ARIZONA73
06-04-2005, 08:17 AM
Just walk into any store which sells vitamins and other supplements and spend some time reading some of the labels. You will notice that they really aren't allowed to make any specific claims, no matter how helpful they may actually be. Even if there is the slightest suggestion that it may be beneficial, there is always that little asterisk next to it, accompanied by that same statement which has been on nearly all labels for what now seems like an eternity:
"This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent disease."
This statement even appears on those products which are generally accepted as being helpful, even by the medical profession. For example, even my bottle of fish oil contains such a statement. However, many doctors still recommend using fish oil, as well as other supplements, including vitamin E. In fact, it has been estimated that roughly half of all cardiologists take vitamin E.
The same is basically true about herbal products. Many of them have been used successfully for hundreds of years, and still are in many countries. They also have specific uses. However, the FDA still prohibits the manufacturer of such products from making any claims on the label of their product, no matter how truthful it may be. I understand that the FDA has a responsibility to protect the consumer from fraudulant claims. It's a gray area here, since so many different products are involved. Some products may actually be beneficial, while others may not. But the FDA makes no exceptions. It's really all up to the consumers to do their own research on any particular product, and then make up their own minds.
"This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent disease."
This statement even appears on those products which are generally accepted as being helpful, even by the medical profession. For example, even my bottle of fish oil contains such a statement. However, many doctors still recommend using fish oil, as well as other supplements, including vitamin E. In fact, it has been estimated that roughly half of all cardiologists take vitamin E.
The same is basically true about herbal products. Many of them have been used successfully for hundreds of years, and still are in many countries. They also have specific uses. However, the FDA still prohibits the manufacturer of such products from making any claims on the label of their product, no matter how truthful it may be. I understand that the FDA has a responsibility to protect the consumer from fraudulant claims. It's a gray area here, since so many different products are involved. Some products may actually be beneficial, while others may not. But the FDA makes no exceptions. It's really all up to the consumers to do their own research on any particular product, and then make up their own minds.
Lenin
06-04-2005, 09:25 AM
Unfortunately, the Paulings, Raths, Mercolas and Nulls of this world don't read the labels and DO make the claims and write books, and babble on the radio and endorse their brand name vitamins. And these quacks DO claim cures...and should be jailed when they do.
ARIZONA,
C'mon, be honest...even YOU don't believe your last post! Anyone with eyes and ears has heard the claims of cures...remember "Vitamin C CURES the common cold!"
I quickly did a scan:
IN 1993...
LINUS PAULING BEGAN TELLING US ABOUT A SAFE AND EFFECTIVE TREATMENT FOR AMERICA'S NUMBER ONE KILLER ...
Again, he bypassed the medical establishment who are ignoring a major medical discovery. Pauling's video -- Heart Disease: Cause and Cure -- provides basic information on the supersafe treatment that neutralizes lipoprotein(a) -- unquestionably one of the great medical discoveries!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About The Dosage Recommendations
Linus Pauling recommended a high amount of two essential nutrients for the maintenance of the intima of arterial walls and for a reduction in plaque caused and laid down by a variant of LDL cholesterol: lipoprotein(a) or Lp(a). The Pauling/Rath theory attributes plaque formation to lesions in the intima caused by insufficient vitamin C in the diet. In other words, plaque formation is a healing process. In all cases, large amounts of vitamin C are warranted to support healing of the intima. Lysine (and proline) is theorized to attach to the lysine and proline receptors of the Lp(a) molecule, and thus substitute for the Lysine and proline exposed on the arterial wall after injury to the intima.
Do you really think THAT'S not claiming Vitamin use as a major treatmment for heart disease. Sounds like claim of a cure to me. The FDA doesn't say THE LABEL must not claim a cure but those who are marketing and profiting from the supplement may not make these claims. I know for a fact that both Rath and Null profit MIGHTILY from Vitamin sales and books.
ARIZONA,
C'mon, be honest...even YOU don't believe your last post! Anyone with eyes and ears has heard the claims of cures...remember "Vitamin C CURES the common cold!"
I quickly did a scan:
IN 1993...
LINUS PAULING BEGAN TELLING US ABOUT A SAFE AND EFFECTIVE TREATMENT FOR AMERICA'S NUMBER ONE KILLER ...
Again, he bypassed the medical establishment who are ignoring a major medical discovery. Pauling's video -- Heart Disease: Cause and Cure -- provides basic information on the supersafe treatment that neutralizes lipoprotein(a) -- unquestionably one of the great medical discoveries!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About The Dosage Recommendations
Linus Pauling recommended a high amount of two essential nutrients for the maintenance of the intima of arterial walls and for a reduction in plaque caused and laid down by a variant of LDL cholesterol: lipoprotein(a) or Lp(a). The Pauling/Rath theory attributes plaque formation to lesions in the intima caused by insufficient vitamin C in the diet. In other words, plaque formation is a healing process. In all cases, large amounts of vitamin C are warranted to support healing of the intima. Lysine (and proline) is theorized to attach to the lysine and proline receptors of the Lp(a) molecule, and thus substitute for the Lysine and proline exposed on the arterial wall after injury to the intima.
Do you really think THAT'S not claiming Vitamin use as a major treatmment for heart disease. Sounds like claim of a cure to me. The FDA doesn't say THE LABEL must not claim a cure but those who are marketing and profiting from the supplement may not make these claims. I know for a fact that both Rath and Null profit MIGHTILY from Vitamin sales and books.
ARIZONA73
06-04-2005, 11:14 AM
Lenin,
Naturally, I wouldn't expect you to believe any of it. But then again, I don't believe very much of what you say, either.
Naturally, I wouldn't expect you to believe any of it. But then again, I don't believe very much of what you say, either.
HubbleRules
06-04-2005, 11:15 AM
Lenin,
You are so utterly predictable.
I expected you to launch an all-out attack on all supplements following recent posts. You have a deep-seated hatred of all supplements based on your personal history.
Can you do us all a favor and keep it to yourself? Many here are trying to do things to help lower their cholesterol - but if they dare mention a supplement, you are all over them... Are you like this in real life?
You are the one who has CHD, you are the one who has had blockage and a stent. Obviously you don't know how to prevent or cure CHD - so why should I listen to you?
Can you please stop slamming every single post on this site about supplements?
No one on the other side is obsessed with slamming statins...
Getting quite annoyed and tired of this ...
HubbleRules
:cool:
You are so utterly predictable.
I expected you to launch an all-out attack on all supplements following recent posts. You have a deep-seated hatred of all supplements based on your personal history.
Can you do us all a favor and keep it to yourself? Many here are trying to do things to help lower their cholesterol - but if they dare mention a supplement, you are all over them... Are you like this in real life?
You are the one who has CHD, you are the one who has had blockage and a stent. Obviously you don't know how to prevent or cure CHD - so why should I listen to you?
Can you please stop slamming every single post on this site about supplements?
No one on the other side is obsessed with slamming statins...
Getting quite annoyed and tired of this ...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Lenin
06-04-2005, 03:32 PM
Claiming Vitamin E and Vitamin C megadosing as a cure for heart disease is unproven quackery.
I will stop saying that as soon as they stop getting touted as a sensible alternative to current medical practice.
If Hubble and Arizona want to repeat it 1000 times, I will refute it as often.
I am amazed that you can keep promoting C & E without offering one iota of proof or a single positive study content with saying "it looks promising" but the "pharmaceutical industry prevents testing."
NEITHER is a useful treatment for heart disease or its prevention. All studies that ARE done on Vitamin E show that it is DAMAGING...this, you blissfully ignore.
I will stop saying that as soon as they stop getting touted as a sensible alternative to current medical practice.
If Hubble and Arizona want to repeat it 1000 times, I will refute it as often.
I am amazed that you can keep promoting C & E without offering one iota of proof or a single positive study content with saying "it looks promising" but the "pharmaceutical industry prevents testing."
NEITHER is a useful treatment for heart disease or its prevention. All studies that ARE done on Vitamin E show that it is DAMAGING...this, you blissfully ignore.
HubbleRules
06-04-2005, 04:12 PM
Lenin,
Your opinion on supplements is absolutely meaningless. You have an obsessive hatred of vitamin e and c because they did not work for you.
Well, the statins did not prevent you from having blockage either, or a stent surgically implanted.
Like I said, you don't have a clue how to prevent or cure CHD for yourself, so don't preach to me about what I should or shouldn't regard as a cure.
You are not someone whose advice I value.
HubbleRUles
:cool:
Your opinion on supplements is absolutely meaningless. You have an obsessive hatred of vitamin e and c because they did not work for you.
Well, the statins did not prevent you from having blockage either, or a stent surgically implanted.
Like I said, you don't have a clue how to prevent or cure CHD for yourself, so don't preach to me about what I should or shouldn't regard as a cure.
You are not someone whose advice I value.
HubbleRUles
:cool:
Stumper
06-04-2005, 04:29 PM
Now I understand your obsession to slam all supplements. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your mother and vitamins - it must have been hard having a mother who continually pushed them on you against your will. It is only human nature to rebell against this kind of treatment.
Yes, but the gist of the whole argument is that they (supplements) didn't work! I actually believe that the mega doses of Vitamin C I was getting at that time actually worsened my condition. I am convinced of it.
But the hospitals penecillin DID work and it worked fast. But I do not slam all supplements. If you or studies can prove that they work then I am sure that I will take a look at them. If not, then it is only a claim, and nothing more.
Yes, but the gist of the whole argument is that they (supplements) didn't work! I actually believe that the mega doses of Vitamin C I was getting at that time actually worsened my condition. I am convinced of it.
But the hospitals penecillin DID work and it worked fast. But I do not slam all supplements. If you or studies can prove that they work then I am sure that I will take a look at them. If not, then it is only a claim, and nothing more.
HubbleRules
06-04-2005, 04:34 PM
Stumper,
No one in their right mind would prescribe vitamin-c over penicillin for a serious infection that penicillin could treat.
I still think you are very biased against supplements, and I do think your experience with your mother has to be a huge reason for this.
I will continue with the treatment course I am on, and I hope you will see fit not to slam me for it.
I hope we can agree-to-disagree and leave it at that...
Hubblerules
:cool:
No one in their right mind would prescribe vitamin-c over penicillin for a serious infection that penicillin could treat.
I still think you are very biased against supplements, and I do think your experience with your mother has to be a huge reason for this.
I will continue with the treatment course I am on, and I hope you will see fit not to slam me for it.
I hope we can agree-to-disagree and leave it at that...
Hubblerules
:cool:
Stumper
06-04-2005, 04:35 PM
Also, my mother was one who would never go to a doctor. Never. She had problems with ALL doctors unless they would promote supplements.
Because of that she wound up with liver cancer in which my sister, who is a surgeon, said could have been prevented. My sister felt that her cancer started in the colon, which has about a 95% cure rate if caught soon enough.
But my mother allowed her thinking and love of supplements cloud her judgement.
As a matter of fact, since my mothers death I know of two other women who were just like her. The one is dead from cancer because she to would not go to doctors and the other is still alive now but has serious bone cancer. She never like doctors either.
Because of that she wound up with liver cancer in which my sister, who is a surgeon, said could have been prevented. My sister felt that her cancer started in the colon, which has about a 95% cure rate if caught soon enough.
But my mother allowed her thinking and love of supplements cloud her judgement.
As a matter of fact, since my mothers death I know of two other women who were just like her. The one is dead from cancer because she to would not go to doctors and the other is still alive now but has serious bone cancer. She never like doctors either.
Stumper
06-04-2005, 04:39 PM
Hubbles,
If supplements have no side affects then how come someone can turn orange from carrot juice?
If supplements have no side affects then how come someone can turn orange from carrot juice?
HubbleRules
06-04-2005, 04:40 PM
Stumper,
I am genuinely becoming worried about you.
For your own sake, I think you need to talk to someone - a priest, a doctor, a psyhcologist - someone who can help you deal with the unresolved issues you have with your mother.
You probably can't see it, but it is an obsession with you.
Don't ruin your life with these unresolved feelings.
For your own sake, seek assistance.
Forget about the debate we've been having, I concede everything to you. You were right and I was wrong...
But please go see someone...
HubbleRules
:cool:
I am genuinely becoming worried about you.
For your own sake, I think you need to talk to someone - a priest, a doctor, a psyhcologist - someone who can help you deal with the unresolved issues you have with your mother.
You probably can't see it, but it is an obsession with you.
Don't ruin your life with these unresolved feelings.
For your own sake, seek assistance.
Forget about the debate we've been having, I concede everything to you. You were right and I was wrong...
But please go see someone...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Stumper
06-04-2005, 04:57 PM
=HubbleRules
Stumper,
I am genuinely becoming worried about you.
For your own sake, I think you need to talk to someone - a priest, a doctor, a psyhcologist
I can see the priest tomorrow :D :D
But until then I need to know why a person can become orange from drinking carrot juice. :D :D :D :confused:
Stumper,
I am genuinely becoming worried about you.
For your own sake, I think you need to talk to someone - a priest, a doctor, a psyhcologist
I can see the priest tomorrow :D :D
But until then I need to know why a person can become orange from drinking carrot juice. :D :D :D :confused:
ARIZONA73
06-04-2005, 05:24 PM
Stumper,
If a person drinks a lot of carrot juice or consumes high carotene dosages, the skin can turn a yellowish-orange color. This is from the carotenoids being stored in the fat under the skin. This is a completely harmless reaction and goes away as soon as the dosage is lowered. It's really not a big deal. It has nothing at all to do with cirrhosis or liver damage.
If a person drinks a lot of carrot juice or consumes high carotene dosages, the skin can turn a yellowish-orange color. This is from the carotenoids being stored in the fat under the skin. This is a completely harmless reaction and goes away as soon as the dosage is lowered. It's really not a big deal. It has nothing at all to do with cirrhosis or liver damage.
Stumper
06-04-2005, 05:36 PM
Stumper,
If a person drinks a lot of carrot juice or consumes high carotene dosages, the skin can turn a yellowish-orange color. This is from the carotenoids being stored in the fat under the skin. This is a completely harmless reaction and goes away as soon as the dosage is lowered. It's really not a big deal. It has nothing at all to do with cirrhosis or liver damage.
But we don't know that, there have been no studies on it.
If a person drinks a lot of carrot juice or consumes high carotene dosages, the skin can turn a yellowish-orange color. This is from the carotenoids being stored in the fat under the skin. This is a completely harmless reaction and goes away as soon as the dosage is lowered. It's really not a big deal. It has nothing at all to do with cirrhosis or liver damage.
But we don't know that, there have been no studies on it.
ARIZONA73
06-04-2005, 07:15 PM
Will you forget about those stupid studies?! It's just the natural color from the carotene, which if taken in high enough doses can cause a yellowing of the skin. But that's it. This phenomenon has been around for ages. It's hardly anything new. If there was anything dangerous about it, we would have found out about it a long time ago.
Stumper
06-08-2005, 12:02 AM
Will you forget about those stupid studies?! It's just the natural color from the carotene, which if taken in high enough doses can cause a yellowing of the skin. But that's it. This phenomenon has been around for ages. It's hardly anything new. If there was anything dangerous about it, we would have found out about it a long time ago.
Yes, BUT people also can turn red from to much tomatoes as well. And the question is just how damaging is it?
Yes, BUT people also can turn red from to much tomatoes as well. And the question is just how damaging is it?
ARIZONA73
06-09-2005, 09:11 PM
Stumper,
I've never heard of anyone turning red from eating tomatoes.
I've never heard of anyone turning red from eating tomatoes.