linda115
05-28-2005, 10:13 AM
http://www.mercola.com/2005/may/28/cholesterol_heart.htm
Cholesterol is NOT the Cause of Heart Disease
By Ron Rosedale, MD
Cholesterol is not the major culprit in heart disease or any disease. If it becomes oxidized it can irritate/inflame tissues in which it is lodged in, such as the endothelium (lining of the arteries). This would be one of numerous causes of chronic inflammation that can injure the lining of arteries. However, many good fats are easily oxidized such as omega-3 fatty acids, but it does not mean that you should avoid it at all costs.
Common sense would indicate that we should avoid the oxidation (rancidity) of cholesterol and fatty acids and not get rid of important life-giving molecules. Using the same conventional medical thinking that is being used for cholesterol would lead one to believe that doctors should reduce the risk of Alzheimer's disease by taking out everybody's brain.
In fact, cholesterol is being transported to tissues as part of an inflammatory response that is there to repair damage.
The fixation on cholesterol as a major cause of heart disease defies the last 15 years of science and deflects from real causes such as the damage (via glycation) that sugars such as glucose and fructose inflict on tissues, including the lining of arteries, causing chronic inflammation and resultant plaque...
Cholesterol is NOT the Cause of Heart Disease
By Ron Rosedale, MD
Cholesterol is not the major culprit in heart disease or any disease. If it becomes oxidized it can irritate/inflame tissues in which it is lodged in, such as the endothelium (lining of the arteries). This would be one of numerous causes of chronic inflammation that can injure the lining of arteries. However, many good fats are easily oxidized such as omega-3 fatty acids, but it does not mean that you should avoid it at all costs.
Common sense would indicate that we should avoid the oxidation (rancidity) of cholesterol and fatty acids and not get rid of important life-giving molecules. Using the same conventional medical thinking that is being used for cholesterol would lead one to believe that doctors should reduce the risk of Alzheimer's disease by taking out everybody's brain.
In fact, cholesterol is being transported to tissues as part of an inflammatory response that is there to repair damage.
The fixation on cholesterol as a major cause of heart disease defies the last 15 years of science and deflects from real causes such as the damage (via glycation) that sugars such as glucose and fructose inflict on tissues, including the lining of arteries, causing chronic inflammation and resultant plaque...
Sponsor
ARIZONA73
05-28-2005, 11:32 AM
It makes sense to me. I've always been somewhat skeptical of what we've been told about cholesterol. And that part about omega-3 fish oil is also true. All fats, even good fats, can become oxidized. That's why it is a good idea to take vitamin E with your fish oil. In fact, some fish oil capsules even contain a small amount of vitamin E for this purpose.
I don't think there's any doubt that, given the right conditions, various lipids, such as LDL and Lp(a) can become deposited as plaque and cause serious problems for many people. But the question is why? I don't think that cholesterol's purpose is to deposit as plaque in our arteries and ultimately kill us. It's not supposed to do this, unless conditions favor it. Chronic inflammation, and inadequate intake of vitamin C and other nutrients can lay the groundwork for the ultimate development of atherosclerosis. That's my opinion. When we focus all of our attention on cholesterol control, we are merely targeting the messenger.
I don't think there's any doubt that, given the right conditions, various lipids, such as LDL and Lp(a) can become deposited as plaque and cause serious problems for many people. But the question is why? I don't think that cholesterol's purpose is to deposit as plaque in our arteries and ultimately kill us. It's not supposed to do this, unless conditions favor it. Chronic inflammation, and inadequate intake of vitamin C and other nutrients can lay the groundwork for the ultimate development of atherosclerosis. That's my opinion. When we focus all of our attention on cholesterol control, we are merely targeting the messenger.
linda115
05-28-2005, 11:41 AM
ARIZONA,
What is the role of CoQ10 versus vitamin E in this scenario?
What is the role of CoQ10 versus vitamin E in this scenario?
ARIZONA73
05-28-2005, 01:35 PM
Linda,
Try to think of CoQ10 as your heart's spark plug. A sufficient supply of this vital enzyme is essential to the proper functioning of the heart muscle. In fact, the highest concentration of CoQ10 can be found in the heart muscle. If a person's level of CoQ10 becomes depleted to dangerously low levels, in can lead to congestive heart failure.
Vitamin E is a fat-soluble antioxidant. It easily penetrates the LDL molecule and can help prevent it from becoming oxidized. It can help prevent fats and oils from becoming rancid and forming free-radicals, even after you've ingested them.
CoQ10 is present in the bloodstream, where it circulates with other antioxidants. As it circulates, it combines with vitamin E to help prevent lipid peroxidation. It also protects vitamin E itself from free-radical destruction.
Last, but not least, EVERYONE PLEASE HEAR THIS:
It turns out that CoQ10 molecules in the bloodstream are actually TRANSPORTED BY THE LDL cholesterol!! Yes, you've heard right.
Try to think of CoQ10 as your heart's spark plug. A sufficient supply of this vital enzyme is essential to the proper functioning of the heart muscle. In fact, the highest concentration of CoQ10 can be found in the heart muscle. If a person's level of CoQ10 becomes depleted to dangerously low levels, in can lead to congestive heart failure.
Vitamin E is a fat-soluble antioxidant. It easily penetrates the LDL molecule and can help prevent it from becoming oxidized. It can help prevent fats and oils from becoming rancid and forming free-radicals, even after you've ingested them.
CoQ10 is present in the bloodstream, where it circulates with other antioxidants. As it circulates, it combines with vitamin E to help prevent lipid peroxidation. It also protects vitamin E itself from free-radical destruction.
Last, but not least, EVERYONE PLEASE HEAR THIS:
It turns out that CoQ10 molecules in the bloodstream are actually TRANSPORTED BY THE LDL cholesterol!! Yes, you've heard right.
linda115
05-28-2005, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the explanation. You made it simple and easy to understand. I have just given my husband one Vit. E and one spark plug. :)
ARIZONA73
05-28-2005, 05:13 PM
Linda,
Some CoQ10 supplements even come with vitamin E already in it. For example, the Q-Gel CoQ10 that I take also has 100 IU vitamin E in it. :wave:
Some CoQ10 supplements even come with vitamin E already in it. For example, the Q-Gel CoQ10 that I take also has 100 IU vitamin E in it. :wave:
gardeninggal
05-28-2005, 11:10 PM
Linda, I have come to believe that cholesterol is not the whole story and yes I suspect that Glucose and Insulin may be a big contributer to heart disease. Much of what I read points to that and like I said in an earlier post diabetics often die of heart trouble. But I also think that our food has been fooled with way too much, it no longer even resembles the food of yesterdays. When they figured out how to hydrogenate fats that was the beginning of the decline. I read a very interesting book written by a seven time Nobel Prize Nominee, Dr. Johanna Budwig. In Europe she is considered the authority on fats. In her book she explains how the body uses fats and how vital they are, but only fats that have "Life" still in them. Life in fat are electrons which are a spark of life but hydrogenated fats have the spark killed in order to have shelf life in food products. She explains that the fats find their way into the lymph system and when the used blood from the veins flows into the right-hand ventricle of the heart each heart beat deposits lymphatic fluid into the blood. This lymphatic fat fluid must have this electron or live electrical impulses in order for the heart to beat . when the lymphatic system has a "dead" fat the heart rejects it and it is deposited in other places in the body just to get rid it. There are cases where the heart is encircled with fat which confines and disturbes its natural beating. This hydrogenated fat finds itself being deposited in coronary vessels. She is a great fan of Flax oil as a live fat. We are complex humans and we were made to utilize certain foods, live enzymes, vitamins, minerals and pure water something hard to get these days. :wave:
linda115
05-28-2005, 11:26 PM
gardeninggal, What you said is very interesting. I will have to read it a few more times to understand it fully. I have always felt that the type of oil we consume affects our well being. In the old days or ancient days, there's no hydrogenated oil. If I am not mistaken, isn't margarine a polymer? Are we eating plastics? Anyway, I have to check with my hubby. He's a chemical engineer.
In addition, we are consuming way too much preservatives. These are not food. They are foreign objects to our body and therefore, the body does not know what to do with them. Consequently, they are stuck inside us. How do we get rid of them?
Thanks again, gardeninggal.
Blessings,
Linda
In addition, we are consuming way too much preservatives. These are not food. They are foreign objects to our body and therefore, the body does not know what to do with them. Consequently, they are stuck inside us. How do we get rid of them?
Thanks again, gardeninggal.
Blessings,
Linda
JJ
05-28-2005, 11:57 PM
gardeninggal.....Very interesting article, and I believe it 100%. Many times hubby and I have said the same thing, foods today are WAY over processed, and even most of our fruits and veggies aren't the same. Our soil has been contaminated, therefore we don't get half the nutrients we did years ago, and God only knows where some of it comes from. I'm sick of going to the store and not being able to find USA grown stuff, and yet the prices are off the wall. I don't have room for a garden where I live, but my neighbor does, and what a difference in the taste of things we eat out of his garden compared to store bought stuff. Right about now, the season for decent fruits and veggies are here, but that only lasts a few months.
All I know is we never even heard of cholesterol problems till maybe 15 yrs. ago, and now it is the big money maker for the drug companies in my opinion.
Oh well, let's see what they come up with next, as everytime they shove out a new guideline for anything, the numbers get lower and lower. Can't tell me it isn't so we all will be on some kind of meds. for something... :p
Hope everyone has a nice Memorial Day weekend.... :wave:
All I know is we never even heard of cholesterol problems till maybe 15 yrs. ago, and now it is the big money maker for the drug companies in my opinion.
Oh well, let's see what they come up with next, as everytime they shove out a new guideline for anything, the numbers get lower and lower. Can't tell me it isn't so we all will be on some kind of meds. for something... :p
Hope everyone has a nice Memorial Day weekend.... :wave:
ARIZONA73
05-29-2005, 12:28 AM
Margarine was probably one of the worst inventions, along with the introduction of hydrogenated fats in so many of our foods. Yes, of course so many of our food products today are pure garbage. We would probably be much better off if we stayed with natural food made with plain old butter and lard. They taste better, and are much better for us. Food tampering is a no-no. But modern man evidently hasn't been able to comprehend this basic fact. Instead, all of our so-called "experts" keep coming up with more and more cheap and dangerous substitutes every day. And, to further add insult to injury, they tell us that supplements are unnecessary, and even dangerous! How stupid can they be?
JJ
05-29-2005, 12:49 AM
They tell us supplements are no good cause they get NO $$$$ from selling them. Here they shove us on all kinds of toxic meds., then we have to spend more money trying to undo the damage they have done. AARGGG People like myself who are on fixed imcomes have a tuff time trying to get meds. we really need, so now we have to pick and choose even what supplements we can afford. God, it never ends.... :rolleyes:
Like U said, give me the good ole days of "normal" foods. They were good for U and like U said, tasted a heck of alot better. I know I'm showing my age, but I remember getting eggs from the henhouse before school, picking apples, pears off trees, berries & grapes from vines, and veggies from a garden, and that was city living, not country..... :D
Have a great weekend, time to hit the sack... :wave: :yawn:
Like U said, give me the good ole days of "normal" foods. They were good for U and like U said, tasted a heck of alot better. I know I'm showing my age, but I remember getting eggs from the henhouse before school, picking apples, pears off trees, berries & grapes from vines, and veggies from a garden, and that was city living, not country..... :D
Have a great weekend, time to hit the sack... :wave: :yawn:
HubbleRules
05-29-2005, 08:10 AM
They tell us supplements are no good cause they get NO $$$$ from selling them. Here they shove us on all kinds of toxic meds., then we have to spend more money trying to undo the damage they have done.
JJ,
I don't take any prescription meds right now. I've lost a tremendous amount of faith in the medical community over the past 10-15 years.
First, we were brain-washed in the 70s to shun butter, and eat margarine. We did this religiously! About 10 years ago, they do one of their typical 180 degree about faces, and tell us to avoid margarine because it is much worse than butter!! I got so mad!!! I wonder how much damage we did to ourselves and how many years we chopped off our lifespans listening to these idiotic experts. There was no internet then, but I'm sure there were 'clinical studies' (that some like to quote so much) vindicating the superiority of margarine over butter... In my opinion, you can take most of the clinical studies and line them up end-to-end, and they wouldn't reach a conclusion.
Second, the medical profession is one huge example of 'group think'. They all think and treat the same to avoid any legal liabilities.
Thirdly they get many perks from the pharmaceuticals, and have a personal interest in promoting them. Today the medical community (doctors, researchers, FDA...) is so tainted with financial conflicts of interest, that you may as well make your decisions with a dart board rather than trust the 'experts'.
I've switched to more and more natural remedies over the past few years, especially since my problem with Lipitor and Tricor. Doctors have so little time to spend with patients today, all they can think to do is pop pills. I don't want to take any meds for the rest of my life - especially since no-one is investigating the long-term side-effects of them... The side-effects only surface after the fact, after there are so many Adverse Side Effect reports, that not even a monkey could ignore them.
HubbleRules
:cool:
JJ,
I don't take any prescription meds right now. I've lost a tremendous amount of faith in the medical community over the past 10-15 years.
First, we were brain-washed in the 70s to shun butter, and eat margarine. We did this religiously! About 10 years ago, they do one of their typical 180 degree about faces, and tell us to avoid margarine because it is much worse than butter!! I got so mad!!! I wonder how much damage we did to ourselves and how many years we chopped off our lifespans listening to these idiotic experts. There was no internet then, but I'm sure there were 'clinical studies' (that some like to quote so much) vindicating the superiority of margarine over butter... In my opinion, you can take most of the clinical studies and line them up end-to-end, and they wouldn't reach a conclusion.
Second, the medical profession is one huge example of 'group think'. They all think and treat the same to avoid any legal liabilities.
Thirdly they get many perks from the pharmaceuticals, and have a personal interest in promoting them. Today the medical community (doctors, researchers, FDA...) is so tainted with financial conflicts of interest, that you may as well make your decisions with a dart board rather than trust the 'experts'.
I've switched to more and more natural remedies over the past few years, especially since my problem with Lipitor and Tricor. Doctors have so little time to spend with patients today, all they can think to do is pop pills. I don't want to take any meds for the rest of my life - especially since no-one is investigating the long-term side-effects of them... The side-effects only surface after the fact, after there are so many Adverse Side Effect reports, that not even a monkey could ignore them.
HubbleRules
:cool:
ARIZONA73
05-29-2005, 09:24 AM
Here is an excerpt from a book I have called the "Age-Defying Diet", by Dr. Robert Atkins. This explains how this whole fiasco unfolded and led to the dietary recommendations that have so strongly endorsed by the AHA for the last several decades:
"Ancel Keys was the famed nutritional researcher selected to determine the nutritional needs of GIs and design portable meals to meet those needs. He's the "K" in K rations."
"With the war over, however, Keys turned his attention to what he called the Seven Countries study, a review of diet and health around the world. The results, revealed in the early 1950s, supposedly showed that people in countries where the diet was high in saturated fat had higher rates of heart disease. Here's the fallacy: The WHO figures available to Keys totalled those of twenty nations. Keys selected the seven that proved his point. Had he chosen other nations, fat would have been exonerated. Unfortunately, Keys' reputation was so great that the medical establishment immediately embraced his conclusions."
"Based on the Keys Seven Countries study and others, equally flawed, the AHA undertook a campaign to replace butter, lard, eggs, and beef with corn oil, margarine, and cereal. By 1956, the campaign was in full swing. "Beware saturated fats" was the party line, and the medical establishment fell into place reciting it- with one notable exception. Dr. Paul Dudley White, Harvard's leading cardiologist and President Dwight Eisenhower's physician, pointed out that he hadn't seen a single coronary at Harvard between 1921 and 1928. On a televised panel discussion with other leading physicians, White proclaimed that "back in the myocardialinfarction-free days before 1920, the fats were butter and lard, and I think we would all benefit from that kind of diet." His sensible advice, based on years of clinical experience and on epidemiological studies, was ignored."
"Ancel Keys was the famed nutritional researcher selected to determine the nutritional needs of GIs and design portable meals to meet those needs. He's the "K" in K rations."
"With the war over, however, Keys turned his attention to what he called the Seven Countries study, a review of diet and health around the world. The results, revealed in the early 1950s, supposedly showed that people in countries where the diet was high in saturated fat had higher rates of heart disease. Here's the fallacy: The WHO figures available to Keys totalled those of twenty nations. Keys selected the seven that proved his point. Had he chosen other nations, fat would have been exonerated. Unfortunately, Keys' reputation was so great that the medical establishment immediately embraced his conclusions."
"Based on the Keys Seven Countries study and others, equally flawed, the AHA undertook a campaign to replace butter, lard, eggs, and beef with corn oil, margarine, and cereal. By 1956, the campaign was in full swing. "Beware saturated fats" was the party line, and the medical establishment fell into place reciting it- with one notable exception. Dr. Paul Dudley White, Harvard's leading cardiologist and President Dwight Eisenhower's physician, pointed out that he hadn't seen a single coronary at Harvard between 1921 and 1928. On a televised panel discussion with other leading physicians, White proclaimed that "back in the myocardialinfarction-free days before 1920, the fats were butter and lard, and I think we would all benefit from that kind of diet." His sensible advice, based on years of clinical experience and on epidemiological studies, was ignored."
Lenin
05-29-2005, 09:54 AM
linda,
You asked for opinions; here's my thought process:
I saw the word oxidation and know that's often a code word to sell "antioxidants." So first thing I suspected more of the same supplement peddling with inflated claim. Next step in the process was to search the name of the doctor. First entry under his name was RON ROSEDALE NATURETICALS, as expected.
That pretty much closed my case. Another quack cure getting couched in jargon.
There's a good, useful, OLD term for stopping the body's oxidative processes...it's called DEATH!:D Anything that is a reducing agent CAN be called an antioxidant; on Earth the most widely available is WOOD!
You asked for opinions; here's my thought process:
I saw the word oxidation and know that's often a code word to sell "antioxidants." So first thing I suspected more of the same supplement peddling with inflated claim. Next step in the process was to search the name of the doctor. First entry under his name was RON ROSEDALE NATURETICALS, as expected.
That pretty much closed my case. Another quack cure getting couched in jargon.
There's a good, useful, OLD term for stopping the body's oxidative processes...it's called DEATH!:D Anything that is a reducing agent CAN be called an antioxidant; on Earth the most widely available is WOOD!
HubbleRules
05-29-2005, 10:21 AM
linda,
You asked for opinions; here's my thought process:
I saw the word oxidation and know that's often a code word to sell "antioxidants." So first thing I suspected more of the same supplement peddling with inflated claim. Next step in the process was to search the name of the doctor. First entry under his name was RON ROSEDALE NATURETICALS, as expected.
That pretty much closed my case. Another quack cure getting couched in jargon.
There's a good, useful, OLD term for stopping the body's oxidative processes...it's called DEATH!:D Anything that is a reducing agent CAN be called an antioxidant; on Earth the most widely available is WOOD!
Lenin,
I also am skeptical when someone is promoting the virtues of a product that they benefit from financially. When I see this, I search for independent opinions on the product in question. If I can't find any, I don't buy it.
However, to be consistent and logical, you must also apply this standard to prescription meds.
Statins have over $30 Billion worth of conflict-of-interest behind them. Pharmaceuticals are THE MOST PROFITABLE INDUSTRY SEGMENT IN THE WORLD - no other industry segment comes close to their total profit and profit margins...
So, when I see articles extolling the virtues of statins, I can also legitimately question their validity unless I can be assured that the researchers, doctors or others promoting them HAVE NO FINANCIAL TIES TO THE PRODUCT OR THE MANUFACTURER. Given the revelations of the past 2 years of the extensive, systemic conflicts of interest between the Pharmas and the FDA, NIH and doctors... there is plenty of suspicion of some drugs being 'quack' cures also. Some (such as VIOXX and Baycol) have been recalled because they were actually quite deadly.
There's plenty of doubt to go around on both sides of the aisles.
I personally suspect the solution to CHD will eventually be found to be a combination of supplements and as-yet-unmarketed prescription drugs, which will target the root cause of the arterial injury/inflammation-response process (and not cholesterol per se), or which will target increasing good cholesterol (HDL).
HubbleRules
:cool:
You asked for opinions; here's my thought process:
I saw the word oxidation and know that's often a code word to sell "antioxidants." So first thing I suspected more of the same supplement peddling with inflated claim. Next step in the process was to search the name of the doctor. First entry under his name was RON ROSEDALE NATURETICALS, as expected.
That pretty much closed my case. Another quack cure getting couched in jargon.
There's a good, useful, OLD term for stopping the body's oxidative processes...it's called DEATH!:D Anything that is a reducing agent CAN be called an antioxidant; on Earth the most widely available is WOOD!
Lenin,
I also am skeptical when someone is promoting the virtues of a product that they benefit from financially. When I see this, I search for independent opinions on the product in question. If I can't find any, I don't buy it.
However, to be consistent and logical, you must also apply this standard to prescription meds.
Statins have over $30 Billion worth of conflict-of-interest behind them. Pharmaceuticals are THE MOST PROFITABLE INDUSTRY SEGMENT IN THE WORLD - no other industry segment comes close to their total profit and profit margins...
So, when I see articles extolling the virtues of statins, I can also legitimately question their validity unless I can be assured that the researchers, doctors or others promoting them HAVE NO FINANCIAL TIES TO THE PRODUCT OR THE MANUFACTURER. Given the revelations of the past 2 years of the extensive, systemic conflicts of interest between the Pharmas and the FDA, NIH and doctors... there is plenty of suspicion of some drugs being 'quack' cures also. Some (such as VIOXX and Baycol) have been recalled because they were actually quite deadly.
There's plenty of doubt to go around on both sides of the aisles.
I personally suspect the solution to CHD will eventually be found to be a combination of supplements and as-yet-unmarketed prescription drugs, which will target the root cause of the arterial injury/inflammation-response process (and not cholesterol per se), or which will target increasing good cholesterol (HDL).
HubbleRules
:cool:
JJ
05-29-2005, 12:10 PM
I think the arguement between meds. or supplements will go on till the end of OUR time, as there are just too many questions about both. For some folks there are meds. that need to be taken, but I still believe meds. are WAY over prescribed, and drs. just are too reluctant to try a more natural method for certain things first.
All these pain meds. that have been given to folks seem to be getting taken off the market one after the other, and now we see ads for stuff we use to take long before prescription drugs were used. One dr. told me if I knew what was in Tylenol I would never use it, and like I told him, "Yes, probably so, but at least it doesn't toss me on my butt like a statin does". Needless to say I got a dirty look. Oh well, ya can't win em all I guess..... :)
Enjoy the weekend folks, stay safe, but have fun.... :wave: ...... :cool:
BTW, forgot to add that I think these new guidelines on everything is also getting out of hand. They want everyting so low, that the "normal" person is not able to meet it unless on drugs, and then might not meet it with them either, so doses go even higher. Vicious cycle in my book.... :p
All these pain meds. that have been given to folks seem to be getting taken off the market one after the other, and now we see ads for stuff we use to take long before prescription drugs were used. One dr. told me if I knew what was in Tylenol I would never use it, and like I told him, "Yes, probably so, but at least it doesn't toss me on my butt like a statin does". Needless to say I got a dirty look. Oh well, ya can't win em all I guess..... :)
Enjoy the weekend folks, stay safe, but have fun.... :wave: ...... :cool:
BTW, forgot to add that I think these new guidelines on everything is also getting out of hand. They want everyting so low, that the "normal" person is not able to meet it unless on drugs, and then might not meet it with them either, so doses go even higher. Vicious cycle in my book.... :p
ARIZONA73
05-29-2005, 12:31 PM
Lenin,
Certainly there is a connection between oxidation and antioxidants. You can't really discuss one without mentioning the other. But I consider myself a realist. I fully realize that NOTHING, antioxidants included, can halt the aging process which comes from the free-radical damage that will eventually overtake us all. If that was possible, we would look and remain as healthy at age 70 as we were at age 20. But I do think that it is possible to slow down this process, so that people can remain healthier and free from many of the degenerative diseases for longer periods of time. I think just about everyone can recall someone they knew who led a reckless, self-destructive lifestyle, and paid little attention to what they ate. Many of these people not only look older than their years, but they quite often suffer the consequences of degenerative diseases at earlier ages as well. So, although we can't stop the aging process in its tracks, we can certainly take steps to slow its progression, extend our quality of life and remain healthier longer.
Certainly there is a connection between oxidation and antioxidants. You can't really discuss one without mentioning the other. But I consider myself a realist. I fully realize that NOTHING, antioxidants included, can halt the aging process which comes from the free-radical damage that will eventually overtake us all. If that was possible, we would look and remain as healthy at age 70 as we were at age 20. But I do think that it is possible to slow down this process, so that people can remain healthier and free from many of the degenerative diseases for longer periods of time. I think just about everyone can recall someone they knew who led a reckless, self-destructive lifestyle, and paid little attention to what they ate. Many of these people not only look older than their years, but they quite often suffer the consequences of degenerative diseases at earlier ages as well. So, although we can't stop the aging process in its tracks, we can certainly take steps to slow its progression, extend our quality of life and remain healthier longer.
Tobias
05-29-2005, 03:19 PM
You asked for an opinion on Mercola. My opinion of him and his website is affected by this recent letter to him from the FDA.:
http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2005/mercola.shtml
http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2005/mercola.shtml
Stumper
05-29-2005, 04:54 PM
This is indeed a very interesting discussion with many different, and very interesting viewpoints.
To be honest (I have mentioned this before) the Amish defy all conventional wisdom whe it comes to diets. They can eat all the rich buttery creamy, lard filled food and pies and for the most part are in very very good condition. The difference is that they work their butts off. SO the human body can handle ALOT of food, no matter what kind if one works hard. I've seen it all around me.
But to those of us who are more sedentary (office jobs and so forth) we need much less food and fats, cheese, margerines, and **better nutrition** to support our lifestyles to create a balance.
My mother used to think the hard working man actually needs "extra" fats in their diets for fuel to burn. I have seen this proven time and again here in Northeast Ohio with the Amish. And they live no shorter lives than anyone else.
Me and my brothers worked our butts off on my Dads farm and ate like horses, eggs, butter, cream, bakery, and did just fine.
Wouldn't do it now though. :D
To be honest (I have mentioned this before) the Amish defy all conventional wisdom whe it comes to diets. They can eat all the rich buttery creamy, lard filled food and pies and for the most part are in very very good condition. The difference is that they work their butts off. SO the human body can handle ALOT of food, no matter what kind if one works hard. I've seen it all around me.
But to those of us who are more sedentary (office jobs and so forth) we need much less food and fats, cheese, margerines, and **better nutrition** to support our lifestyles to create a balance.
My mother used to think the hard working man actually needs "extra" fats in their diets for fuel to burn. I have seen this proven time and again here in Northeast Ohio with the Amish. And they live no shorter lives than anyone else.
Me and my brothers worked our butts off on my Dads farm and ate like horses, eggs, butter, cream, bakery, and did just fine.
Wouldn't do it now though. :D
linda115
05-29-2005, 06:06 PM
Stumper. When I was in college in Wisconsin in the late 60s, it's common to see college guys taking 3 glasses of milk and 3 glasses of orange juice plus all kinds of breakfast food, egg, ham, bacon, sausage, biscuits etc. for breakfast. At that time, no one was worried about cholesterol or weight gain. For me, I ate myself silly too and never gain a lb. Today, that is no longer true. How sad!
Tobias. Thank you for the link. We certainly cannot believe in everything out there on the web. I actually bought the "Living Fuel" powdered drink and tried it. With all my hypoT symptoms going on at that time, I couldn't tell if it benefitted me at all. Anyway, it tasted terrible. I didn't like it. Your link will help others to be careful.
Tobias. Thank you for the link. We certainly cannot believe in everything out there on the web. I actually bought the "Living Fuel" powdered drink and tried it. With all my hypoT symptoms going on at that time, I couldn't tell if it benefitted me at all. Anyway, it tasted terrible. I didn't like it. Your link will help others to be careful.
ARIZONA73
05-29-2005, 07:52 PM
I'm not familiar with any of those products that Mercola has been promoting, so I can't comment on it. However, as far as the FDA is concerned, I have my own suspicions and doubts about their integrity as well. They've always been pretty good at throwing their weight around and playing Big Brother, but it is their own backyard that needs cleaning up. That agency has become nothing more than another bureaucracy riddled with patronage and corruption.
Stumper
05-29-2005, 09:21 PM
Stumper. When I was in college in Wisconsin in the late 60s, it's common to see college guys taking 3 glasses of milk and 3 glasses of orange juice plus all kinds of breakfast food, egg, ham, bacon, sausage, biscuits etc. for breakfast. At that time, no one was worried about cholesterol or weight gain. For me, I ate myself silly too and never gain a lb. Today, that is no longer true. How sad!
Tobias. Thank you for the link. We certainly cannot believe in everything out there on the web. I actually bought the "Living Fuel" powdered drink and tried it. With all my hypoT symptoms going on at that time, I couldn't tell if it benefitted me at all. Anyway, it tasted terrible. I didn't like it. Your link will help others to be careful.
Linda,
Yes :) And I am never going to be convinced to think that eggs are bad or us. Eggs contain great amounts of body building protein AND B vitamins, iron and other minerals. And eggs will help you lose that sweet tooth. A high protein diet will do so.
Now, I am not promoting eating 6 eggs a day :D BUT, a couple of eggs every now and then will hurt no-one. I would be more concerned with cheese or cream than eggs. I give eggs to my son who has OCD which can accompany depression and have super results. It curbs his appetite for sugar dramatically.
Earlier,I ate eggs all the time while lifting weights and I developed incredible muscularity, akin to Steve Reeves.
They are not evil. I have also heard of kids with ADHD whose parents gave them 2 eggs every morning and they went off meds!
Of course sugar consumption was reduced as well due to the high protein.
But as to cholesterol, it definately clogs arteries. It must. Something is doing it and cholesterol seems to be the culprit.
Tobias. Thank you for the link. We certainly cannot believe in everything out there on the web. I actually bought the "Living Fuel" powdered drink and tried it. With all my hypoT symptoms going on at that time, I couldn't tell if it benefitted me at all. Anyway, it tasted terrible. I didn't like it. Your link will help others to be careful.
Linda,
Yes :) And I am never going to be convinced to think that eggs are bad or us. Eggs contain great amounts of body building protein AND B vitamins, iron and other minerals. And eggs will help you lose that sweet tooth. A high protein diet will do so.
Now, I am not promoting eating 6 eggs a day :D BUT, a couple of eggs every now and then will hurt no-one. I would be more concerned with cheese or cream than eggs. I give eggs to my son who has OCD which can accompany depression and have super results. It curbs his appetite for sugar dramatically.
Earlier,I ate eggs all the time while lifting weights and I developed incredible muscularity, akin to Steve Reeves.
They are not evil. I have also heard of kids with ADHD whose parents gave them 2 eggs every morning and they went off meds!
Of course sugar consumption was reduced as well due to the high protein.
But as to cholesterol, it definately clogs arteries. It must. Something is doing it and cholesterol seems to be the culprit.
HubbleRules
05-29-2005, 10:52 PM
Linda,
Now, I am not promoting eating 6 eggs a day :D BUT, a couple of eggs every now and then will hurt no-one.
But as to cholesterol, it definately clogs arteries. It must. Something is doing it and cholesterol seems to be the culprit.
Stumper,
With all due respect - egg yolks are very high in cholesterol. If you already have high cholesterol - you don't need any dietary sources of if - they are not a good thing to be eating if you are concerned about a high cholesterol level.
As for cholesterol definitely clogging arteries - tell me why there is no general distribution of cholesterol plaques in the arteries throughout the body if it is what is causing blockages.. If cholesterol caused plaques - the plauques should be distributed throughout the vascular system - and they are not - they are primarily restricted to the coronary arteries - where stress is greatest. This is one point that cholesterol-causes-heart-disease crowd never can provide an answer to - and so they totally ignore it.
More in the medical community are realizing that injury to the arteries causes an inflammatory response which in turn causes plaques to form and for smooth-muscle cells to proliferate into the the artery - causing blockage. Cholesterol is drawn into the plaque - but is by no means the root cause of it.
I have my own beliefs as to what contributes to the weakening of the arteries and their subsequent injury and inflammatory response - but some on this board go ballistic when I mention it and it is a pain in the @*% to have to continually respond to their diatribe - so just read my prior posts if you are interested.
True - there is a statistical correlation between high cholesterol and heart attacks - but the relationship is not strong. And, as we all recall from school, statistical correlation does not prove cause and effect.
HubbleRules
:cool:
Now, I am not promoting eating 6 eggs a day :D BUT, a couple of eggs every now and then will hurt no-one.
But as to cholesterol, it definately clogs arteries. It must. Something is doing it and cholesterol seems to be the culprit.
Stumper,
With all due respect - egg yolks are very high in cholesterol. If you already have high cholesterol - you don't need any dietary sources of if - they are not a good thing to be eating if you are concerned about a high cholesterol level.
As for cholesterol definitely clogging arteries - tell me why there is no general distribution of cholesterol plaques in the arteries throughout the body if it is what is causing blockages.. If cholesterol caused plaques - the plauques should be distributed throughout the vascular system - and they are not - they are primarily restricted to the coronary arteries - where stress is greatest. This is one point that cholesterol-causes-heart-disease crowd never can provide an answer to - and so they totally ignore it.
More in the medical community are realizing that injury to the arteries causes an inflammatory response which in turn causes plaques to form and for smooth-muscle cells to proliferate into the the artery - causing blockage. Cholesterol is drawn into the plaque - but is by no means the root cause of it.
I have my own beliefs as to what contributes to the weakening of the arteries and their subsequent injury and inflammatory response - but some on this board go ballistic when I mention it and it is a pain in the @*% to have to continually respond to their diatribe - so just read my prior posts if you are interested.
True - there is a statistical correlation between high cholesterol and heart attacks - but the relationship is not strong. And, as we all recall from school, statistical correlation does not prove cause and effect.
HubbleRules
:cool:
Stumper
05-29-2005, 11:34 PM
Stumper,
With all due respect - egg yolks are very high in cholesterol. If you already have high cholesterol - you don't need any dietary sources of if - they are not a good thing to be eating if you are concerned about a high cholesterol level.
As for cholesterol definitely clogging arteries - tell me why there is no general distribution of cholesterol plaques in the arteries throughout the body if it is what is causing blockages.. If cholesterol caused plaques - the plauques should be distributed throughout the vascular system - and they are not - they are primarily restricted to the coronary arteries - where stress is greatest. This is one point that cholesterol-causes-heart-disease crowd never can provide an answer to - and so they totally ignore it.
More in the medical community are realizing that injury to the arteries causes an inflammatory response which in turn causes plaques to form and for smooth-muscle cells to proliferate into the the artery - causing blockage. Cholesterol is drawn into the plaque - but is by no means the root cause of it.
I have my own beliefs as to what contributes to the weakening of the arteries and their subsequent injury and inflammatory response - but some on this board go ballistic when I mention it and it is a pain in the @*% to have to continually respond to their diatribe - so just read my prior posts if you are interested.
True - there is a statistical correlation between high cholesterol and heart attacks - but the relationship is not strong. And, as we all recall from school, statistical correlation does not prove cause and effect.
HubbleRules
:cool:
Hubbles,
Yes, I am aware of the eggs high cholestorol. I believe my doctor told me that one yolk contains about 240Mg. of cholesterol. He also mentioned to me that yolks are fed to rats in labratories and it kills them.
But yet, I also have read that eggs raise LDL's to some point but in the same process will raise HDL's equally! :)
So,,, speaking personally, in many cases, I think the benefits of eggs may outway the bad **IF one is active.
I am 49 now and when I was 34 years old or so, I went on a retreat with a bunch of men. I had eggs every day for about 2 weeks (more than 2 eggs every morning)(pretty much nothing more) and when I came home I not only lost a little weight but I was "ripped" again! By that I mean my muscles were extremely profound and my stomach muscles had that 6 pack look, like I had in weight training. My wife was schocked.
I guess my question would then be...If cholesterol is drawn to inflammation then reducing cholesterol ought to be a goal, shouldn't it?
How else can one deal with inflammation? Doesn't cholesterol inflame it more?
With all due respect - egg yolks are very high in cholesterol. If you already have high cholesterol - you don't need any dietary sources of if - they are not a good thing to be eating if you are concerned about a high cholesterol level.
As for cholesterol definitely clogging arteries - tell me why there is no general distribution of cholesterol plaques in the arteries throughout the body if it is what is causing blockages.. If cholesterol caused plaques - the plauques should be distributed throughout the vascular system - and they are not - they are primarily restricted to the coronary arteries - where stress is greatest. This is one point that cholesterol-causes-heart-disease crowd never can provide an answer to - and so they totally ignore it.
More in the medical community are realizing that injury to the arteries causes an inflammatory response which in turn causes plaques to form and for smooth-muscle cells to proliferate into the the artery - causing blockage. Cholesterol is drawn into the plaque - but is by no means the root cause of it.
I have my own beliefs as to what contributes to the weakening of the arteries and their subsequent injury and inflammatory response - but some on this board go ballistic when I mention it and it is a pain in the @*% to have to continually respond to their diatribe - so just read my prior posts if you are interested.
True - there is a statistical correlation between high cholesterol and heart attacks - but the relationship is not strong. And, as we all recall from school, statistical correlation does not prove cause and effect.
HubbleRules
:cool:
Hubbles,
Yes, I am aware of the eggs high cholestorol. I believe my doctor told me that one yolk contains about 240Mg. of cholesterol. He also mentioned to me that yolks are fed to rats in labratories and it kills them.
But yet, I also have read that eggs raise LDL's to some point but in the same process will raise HDL's equally! :)
So,,, speaking personally, in many cases, I think the benefits of eggs may outway the bad **IF one is active.
I am 49 now and when I was 34 years old or so, I went on a retreat with a bunch of men. I had eggs every day for about 2 weeks (more than 2 eggs every morning)(pretty much nothing more) and when I came home I not only lost a little weight but I was "ripped" again! By that I mean my muscles were extremely profound and my stomach muscles had that 6 pack look, like I had in weight training. My wife was schocked.
I guess my question would then be...If cholesterol is drawn to inflammation then reducing cholesterol ought to be a goal, shouldn't it?
How else can one deal with inflammation? Doesn't cholesterol inflame it more?
JJ
05-29-2005, 11:42 PM
Hubble, I have to agree with U about the cholesterol and plaque build up. As U know, hubby had his arteries cleaned in 94, with the left side being 95-98% blocked, yet his cholesterol numbers were fine.... :confused:
Can't remember the exact numbers, been way too long, but I do know the TC was around 212, and the rest of the numbers were ok, although his HDL was only around 34, but still not that low. U know the whole story as to how he wound up having the arteries cleaned, as noone suspected a thing, until I complained to the dr. about his lousy coloring and constant cough.
He was active, didn't have diabetes at that time, and was not overweight by more then 5 lbs., so go figure. Since he has been on all these darn meds. now his Trigs are all over the place, probably due to his onset of diabetes, but who knows. Luckily he never has had to have it done again, and last test showed everything totally clean. He had a new type of cardio test done in Jan. called a Mibi. Can't think of the full technical name, but if ya look up Mibi testing image it wil show U the machine used, very high tech.
Oh well, maybe someday someone will figure out all this cholesterol stuff, cause it sure as heck has me confused, as I know it does MANY others. BTW, had a phone call yesterday of a male friend, age 46 being taken to the hospital with chest pain. Seems he has very bad clogged arteries, and guess what, another one with very good numbers... :confused:
This guy is very active, eats pretty healthy, has no other medical problems, but the dr. said another 2 weeks and it would have been all over for him. Something is going on, but I still don't think the medical profession has gotten to the core of it all. JMHO
Take care, and CYL.... :wave:
Can't remember the exact numbers, been way too long, but I do know the TC was around 212, and the rest of the numbers were ok, although his HDL was only around 34, but still not that low. U know the whole story as to how he wound up having the arteries cleaned, as noone suspected a thing, until I complained to the dr. about his lousy coloring and constant cough.
He was active, didn't have diabetes at that time, and was not overweight by more then 5 lbs., so go figure. Since he has been on all these darn meds. now his Trigs are all over the place, probably due to his onset of diabetes, but who knows. Luckily he never has had to have it done again, and last test showed everything totally clean. He had a new type of cardio test done in Jan. called a Mibi. Can't think of the full technical name, but if ya look up Mibi testing image it wil show U the machine used, very high tech.
Oh well, maybe someday someone will figure out all this cholesterol stuff, cause it sure as heck has me confused, as I know it does MANY others. BTW, had a phone call yesterday of a male friend, age 46 being taken to the hospital with chest pain. Seems he has very bad clogged arteries, and guess what, another one with very good numbers... :confused:
This guy is very active, eats pretty healthy, has no other medical problems, but the dr. said another 2 weeks and it would have been all over for him. Something is going on, but I still don't think the medical profession has gotten to the core of it all. JMHO
Take care, and CYL.... :wave:
Stumper
05-30-2005, 12:06 AM
JJ,
That is indeed interesting.
I personally might tend to think that this sort of buildup takes place due to a somewhat sedentary life.
My Dad is 84 years old. About 10 years ago he had a heart valve replaced and the doc says his arteries were lickity clean, except for a very very light narrowing in one. He did a small bypass but made the remark that if he didn't it probably would not have made much of a difference at his age.
His secret?
My mother used alot of Olive oil and Canola oil in her cooking. My mothers BP numbers were very very low, like 110/68 all the time.
So again, diet enters in. But I am also convinced sometimes that heredity does play a factor as well.
My wife is a twin. My wife became diabetic at about 41 years of age. Her sister became diabetic about 6 months later! And to be truthful my wife had the better lifestyle in diet than her sister.
So some things are genetic.
That is indeed interesting.
I personally might tend to think that this sort of buildup takes place due to a somewhat sedentary life.
My Dad is 84 years old. About 10 years ago he had a heart valve replaced and the doc says his arteries were lickity clean, except for a very very light narrowing in one. He did a small bypass but made the remark that if he didn't it probably would not have made much of a difference at his age.
His secret?
My mother used alot of Olive oil and Canola oil in her cooking. My mothers BP numbers were very very low, like 110/68 all the time.
So again, diet enters in. But I am also convinced sometimes that heredity does play a factor as well.
My wife is a twin. My wife became diabetic at about 41 years of age. Her sister became diabetic about 6 months later! And to be truthful my wife had the better lifestyle in diet than her sister.
So some things are genetic.
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 12:10 AM
Stumper,
Your doctor must have been referring to some rather ancient and flawed studies that were conducted decades ago when dried egg yolk powder was being fed to laboratory animals. Well, it turned out that dried egg yolk powder is an oxidized form that is toxic to the blood vessels. So therefore the studies are invalid, since humans do not consume eggs in this form. We eat eggs which are fried or poached. There is a major difference here that continues to be ignored to this day, unfortunately.
Your doctor must have been referring to some rather ancient and flawed studies that were conducted decades ago when dried egg yolk powder was being fed to laboratory animals. Well, it turned out that dried egg yolk powder is an oxidized form that is toxic to the blood vessels. So therefore the studies are invalid, since humans do not consume eggs in this form. We eat eggs which are fried or poached. There is a major difference here that continues to be ignored to this day, unfortunately.
Stumper
05-30-2005, 12:14 AM
Now, I am going to throw everyone here for a loop :D
I know a woman who has 7 kids age 5-20 that claims her kids never get sick and never even had a sore throat!
She deals in the health, vitamin, supplement area and stays away from all grain foods and corn, potatoes and other things. Says that corn is not fit for human consumption and is made for cows and animals! The same for grains. Not sure about potatoes.
Go figure.
I know a woman who has 7 kids age 5-20 that claims her kids never get sick and never even had a sore throat!
She deals in the health, vitamin, supplement area and stays away from all grain foods and corn, potatoes and other things. Says that corn is not fit for human consumption and is made for cows and animals! The same for grains. Not sure about potatoes.
Go figure.
Stumper
05-30-2005, 12:18 AM
Stumper,
Your doctor must have been referring to some rather ancient and flawed studies that were conducted decades ago when dried egg yolk powder was being fed to laboratory animals. Well, it turned out that dried egg yolk powder is an oxidized form that is toxic to the blood vessels. So therefore the studies are invalid, since humans do not consume eggs in this form. We eat eggs which are fried or poached. There is a major difference here that continues to be ignored to this day, unfortunately.
Arizona,
Yes, you could be right. I am not sure where he had gotten his info from.
Your doctor must have been referring to some rather ancient and flawed studies that were conducted decades ago when dried egg yolk powder was being fed to laboratory animals. Well, it turned out that dried egg yolk powder is an oxidized form that is toxic to the blood vessels. So therefore the studies are invalid, since humans do not consume eggs in this form. We eat eggs which are fried or poached. There is a major difference here that continues to be ignored to this day, unfortunately.
Arizona,
Yes, you could be right. I am not sure where he had gotten his info from.
Stumper
05-30-2005, 12:24 AM
OH,
And I forgot to mention about the woman in my upper post....
They eat eggs every morning, all of them including her husband, and they all look very very healthy, BUT she said the eggs have to be BROWN ones. They are better.
I remember these on the farm. Had lots of them, and can still buy them around here although somewhat rare.
And I forgot to mention about the woman in my upper post....
They eat eggs every morning, all of them including her husband, and they all look very very healthy, BUT she said the eggs have to be BROWN ones. They are better.
I remember these on the farm. Had lots of them, and can still buy them around here although somewhat rare.
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 12:28 AM
stumper,
That philosophy sounds similar to what Atkins had been advocating for so many years. Well, I must admit that I love corn on the cob. Always did, ever since I was a kid. But I can understand her logic in abstaining from these foods. They are all high on the glycemic index. Eating too much of these foods can wreak havoc on some people. My father, who is diabetic, more often than not avoids corn.
That philosophy sounds similar to what Atkins had been advocating for so many years. Well, I must admit that I love corn on the cob. Always did, ever since I was a kid. But I can understand her logic in abstaining from these foods. They are all high on the glycemic index. Eating too much of these foods can wreak havoc on some people. My father, who is diabetic, more often than not avoids corn.
JJ
05-30-2005, 12:33 AM
Well Stumper, on the lazy lifestyle I have to disagree with U in reference to hubby and the fella I was talking about. Hubby has always worked a very active job till retiring, and the other fella was MORE then active, so for those 2 non activity was definitely not a factor.
I hear ya bout the genetics, as hubby's sis developed type 2 diabetes a few yrs. ago, and we found out his dad had type 2 diabetes also, so think we can figure out where they got it from.
Have a good one, and enjoy the rest of the weekend... :wave:
I hear ya bout the genetics, as hubby's sis developed type 2 diabetes a few yrs. ago, and we found out his dad had type 2 diabetes also, so think we can figure out where they got it from.
Have a good one, and enjoy the rest of the weekend... :wave:
ARIZONA73
05-30-2005, 12:33 AM
You know, ever since I was a kid, I've heard that brown eggs were better. But to this day, no one has ever told me why. Do you know?
Stumper
05-30-2005, 12:44 AM
You know, ever since I was a kid, I've heard that brown eggs were better. But to this day, no one has ever told me why. Do you know?
Arizona,
When we were growing up on the farm my mother always said that they contained more minerals and nutrition. This woman that I spoke about gave my wife the same explanation of some sort. I believe she said something about the shell being brown.
I do know that they tasted a little different. Not in a bad way, just different. But both this woman and her husband are in very good condition in their late mid 40,s perhaps.
He is thin and lean. She is very shapely and very good muscle tone. That particular night they brought over Asparagus to eat at someones home in butter. Then she brought cake that was without sugar or sweetener. I really don't know what she used in it for sweetening but I personally did not care for it but loved the asparagus. :)
Arizona,
When we were growing up on the farm my mother always said that they contained more minerals and nutrition. This woman that I spoke about gave my wife the same explanation of some sort. I believe she said something about the shell being brown.
I do know that they tasted a little different. Not in a bad way, just different. But both this woman and her husband are in very good condition in their late mid 40,s perhaps.
He is thin and lean. She is very shapely and very good muscle tone. That particular night they brought over Asparagus to eat at someones home in butter. Then she brought cake that was without sugar or sweetener. I really don't know what she used in it for sweetening but I personally did not care for it but loved the asparagus. :)
Stumper
05-30-2005, 12:47 AM
Well Stumper, on the lazy lifestyle I have to disagree with U in reference to hubby and the fella I was talking about. Hubby has always worked a very active job till retiring, and the other fella was MORE then active, so for those 2 non activity was definitely not a factor.
I hear ya bout the genetics, as hubby's sis developed type 2 diabetes a few yrs. ago, and we found out his dad had type 2 diabetes also, so think we can figure out where they got it from.
Have a good one, and enjoy the rest of the weekend... :wave:
JJ,
That is interesting to note :)
Have a nice Memorial Day as well. :wave:
I hear ya bout the genetics, as hubby's sis developed type 2 diabetes a few yrs. ago, and we found out his dad had type 2 diabetes also, so think we can figure out where they got it from.
Have a good one, and enjoy the rest of the weekend... :wave:
JJ,
That is interesting to note :)
Have a nice Memorial Day as well. :wave:
JJ
05-30-2005, 12:50 AM
Like I said, it has me totally confused, but hey, I'm old, so maybe that is it..... :D
Nite to all, and may tomorrow be GREAT.... :wave:
Nite to all, and may tomorrow be GREAT.... :wave:
Uff-Da!
05-30-2005, 03:30 AM
With all due respect - egg yolks are very high in cholesterol. If you already have high cholesterol - you don't need any dietary sources of if - they are not a good thing to be eating if you are concerned about a high cholesterol level.Yes, eggs are very high in dietary cholesterol. But keep in mind that we have been told over and over that saturated fat affects serum cholesterol far more than does dietary cholesterol.
I read a research report several months ago which indicated that, though eggs raised cholesterol, they raised both LDL and HDL, so that the risk ratio was not much changed. Since I am a great egg lover and was really missing the eggs since I'd been on a low-cholesterol diet, I decided to experiment for myself. I ate two eggs a day for approximately ten weeks. Although there is no way that I could keep my diet exactly the same as one might see in actual research, to my knowledge my diet was approximately the same otherwise for the two time periods except that by virtue of having eggs for breakfast, I ate less cereal or whole grain bread products for breakfast the second time. Here are the results from my previous lipid panel without eggs:
TC 190
LDL 101
HDL 72
TC/HDL ratio 2.6
Trigs 87
Trigs/HDL ratio 1.2
Here are the results from my eggs experiment:
TC 241
LDL 137
HDL 91
TC/HDL ratio 2.7
Trigs 68
Trigs/HDL ratio .75
So my TC/HDL ratio was changed very little. I've read other research indicating for women the ratio of trigs to HDL was a more important indicator, and on that basis, my ratio improved. My results pretty well coincided with the average results I'd read about in the research. But which is really more important, the absolute numbers or the ratios? The doctors don't all agree on that one. At this point I'm inclined to believe the ratios are more important, so I've decided to keep eggs in my diet but to back off to an average of one a day instead of two. Compromise a little, I guess.
Another point I think is really important, and that is individual differences in reactions. I just read an abstract from an article titled Effect of egg cholesterol and dietary fats on plasma lipids, lipoproteins, and apoproteins of normal women consuming natural diets. An interesting quote (bolding mine):In summary, dietary fat and cholesterol affect lipid and lipoprotein levels as well as the particle number and chemical composition of both LDL and HDL. There is, however, considerable inter-individual heterogeneity in response to diet.
I read a research report several months ago which indicated that, though eggs raised cholesterol, they raised both LDL and HDL, so that the risk ratio was not much changed. Since I am a great egg lover and was really missing the eggs since I'd been on a low-cholesterol diet, I decided to experiment for myself. I ate two eggs a day for approximately ten weeks. Although there is no way that I could keep my diet exactly the same as one might see in actual research, to my knowledge my diet was approximately the same otherwise for the two time periods except that by virtue of having eggs for breakfast, I ate less cereal or whole grain bread products for breakfast the second time. Here are the results from my previous lipid panel without eggs:
TC 190
LDL 101
HDL 72
TC/HDL ratio 2.6
Trigs 87
Trigs/HDL ratio 1.2
Here are the results from my eggs experiment:
TC 241
LDL 137
HDL 91
TC/HDL ratio 2.7
Trigs 68
Trigs/HDL ratio .75
So my TC/HDL ratio was changed very little. I've read other research indicating for women the ratio of trigs to HDL was a more important indicator, and on that basis, my ratio improved. My results pretty well coincided with the average results I'd read about in the research. But which is really more important, the absolute numbers or the ratios? The doctors don't all agree on that one. At this point I'm inclined to believe the ratios are more important, so I've decided to keep eggs in my diet but to back off to an average of one a day instead of two. Compromise a little, I guess.
Another point I think is really important, and that is individual differences in reactions. I just read an abstract from an article titled Effect of egg cholesterol and dietary fats on plasma lipids, lipoproteins, and apoproteins of normal women consuming natural diets. An interesting quote (bolding mine):In summary, dietary fat and cholesterol affect lipid and lipoprotein levels as well as the particle number and chemical composition of both LDL and HDL. There is, however, considerable inter-individual heterogeneity in response to diet.
HubbleRules
05-30-2005, 07:42 AM
All,
Well - I guess I got people's interest piqued with my response to Stumper about eggs.
Read my response closely - it says that IF YOU ARE CONCERNED YOUR CHOLESTEROL LEVEL (which I am not), then you should avoid eggs because they are a source of added dietary cholesterol. I was respectfully responding to Stumper's assertion that cholesterol clogs arteries - which we've all been told over the years, but which I do not totally buy into - and that he also eats eggs...
I happen to eat eggs myself (4-6 per week) - I think they're a great source of protein and other nutrients.
Like I've said before, anything in extremes (low or high) is probably bad - I think the same applies to cholesterol. It is a vital substance for every single cell in our body (we'd all be dead without it) - and is what comprises the bulk of our brain. I think one of the reasons that some experience cognitive problems on statins is that the cholesterol-lowering effect can affect the brain in some, and that at least one of the statins (can't recall which) is known to cross the blood-brain barrier.
Stumper - I hope I did not upset you - not my intention. I hope the meds continue to work wonders for you. I posted a response to you in another thead entitled " You've got to read this" - it is a summary of info I gleaned from another web site about the cause of atherosclerosis and plaque formation. Give it a read and let me know what you think. You sound like you are in great shape - exercise is one of the most important things we can do (in addition to a diet low in saturated fats, trans fats, sugars) to improve our health.
And all have a wonderful Memorial Day. Remember our war dead, and those serving today (especially those in Iraq and Afghanastan) to protect our freedoms...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Well - I guess I got people's interest piqued with my response to Stumper about eggs.
Read my response closely - it says that IF YOU ARE CONCERNED YOUR CHOLESTEROL LEVEL (which I am not), then you should avoid eggs because they are a source of added dietary cholesterol. I was respectfully responding to Stumper's assertion that cholesterol clogs arteries - which we've all been told over the years, but which I do not totally buy into - and that he also eats eggs...
I happen to eat eggs myself (4-6 per week) - I think they're a great source of protein and other nutrients.
Like I've said before, anything in extremes (low or high) is probably bad - I think the same applies to cholesterol. It is a vital substance for every single cell in our body (we'd all be dead without it) - and is what comprises the bulk of our brain. I think one of the reasons that some experience cognitive problems on statins is that the cholesterol-lowering effect can affect the brain in some, and that at least one of the statins (can't recall which) is known to cross the blood-brain barrier.
Stumper - I hope I did not upset you - not my intention. I hope the meds continue to work wonders for you. I posted a response to you in another thead entitled " You've got to read this" - it is a summary of info I gleaned from another web site about the cause of atherosclerosis and plaque formation. Give it a read and let me know what you think. You sound like you are in great shape - exercise is one of the most important things we can do (in addition to a diet low in saturated fats, trans fats, sugars) to improve our health.
And all have a wonderful Memorial Day. Remember our war dead, and those serving today (especially those in Iraq and Afghanastan) to protect our freedoms...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Stumper
05-30-2005, 03:42 PM
All,
Well - I guess I got people's interest piqued with my response to Stumper about eggs.
Read my response closely - it says that IF YOU ARE CONCERNED YOUR CHOLESTEROL LEVEL (which I am not), then you should avoid eggs because they are a source of added dietary cholesterol. I was respectfully responding to Stumper's assertion that cholesterol clogs arteries - which we've all been told over the years, but which I do not totally buy into - and that he also eats eggs...
I happen to eat eggs myself (4-6 per week) - I think they're a great source of protein and other nutrients.
Like I've said before, anything in extremes (low or high) is probably bad - I think the same applies to cholesterol. It is a vital substance for every single cell in our body (we'd all be dead without it) - and is what comprises the bulk of our brain. I think one of the reasons that some experience cognitive problems on statins is that the cholesterol-lowering effect can affect the brain in some, and that at least one of the statins (can't recall which) is known to cross the blood-brain barrier.
Stumper - I hope I did not upset you - not my intention. I hope the meds continue to work wonders for you. I posted a response to you in another thead entitled " You've got to read this" - it is a summary of info I gleaned from another web site about the cause of atherosclerosis and plaque formation. Give it a read and let me know what you think. You sound like you are in great shape - exercise is one of the most important things we can do (in addition to a diet low in saturated fats, trans fats, sugars) to improve our health.
And all have a wonderful Memorial Day. Remember our war dead, and those serving today (especially those in Iraq and Afghanastan) to protect our freedoms...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Hubble,
Not upset at all. I like all kinds of indformation in front of me. I enjoy differing opinions on many things. That is the way I learn. My goal has always been to be a 'lifelong" learner. The day I quit learning is when I die. If we continue in our learning it keeps us young and healthy. :)
I will read the other thread :cool:
I heard a doctor on radio one day who sad that if we see results on the "outside" of our bodies, chances are the same thing is taking place within. I guess this sticks with me well and I agree with his medical assessment. That's why eggs, to me at least, are not a great evil as we hear so often. Back when I was on the mens retreat and experienced a muscular transfomation (outside) on a two week diet on eggs I just somehow felt that my internal organs were benefitting as well. To be honest for a long time I was the typical Cheerio and oatmeal and coffee guy every day, even until now. Those types of foods do not build lean muscle. To me they tend to make one somewhat "mushy". That is my opinion anyway.
But we have them, thank God.
In all honesty, I think that our arteries get plugged from stuffing our stomachs to much (me including). And I think that a host of clogging takes place at night. Howoften have we eaten and stuffed our stomachs right before bed with tons of fats and cholesterol rich foods? And then fall asleep? I think that is when clogging takes place.
My Dad has a good doctor who told him that it is never wise to eat after 7;00 P.M. for anyone unless it is something very very light. This was the first time I felt a doctor was seeing diet as hurtful and abusive after a certain time of day.
I used to listen to a old Southern preacher on the radio who had strong ideas about diet and he said the same thing. Not that I cared for him that much but he did have some good thoughts on the subject. :D
Well - I guess I got people's interest piqued with my response to Stumper about eggs.
Read my response closely - it says that IF YOU ARE CONCERNED YOUR CHOLESTEROL LEVEL (which I am not), then you should avoid eggs because they are a source of added dietary cholesterol. I was respectfully responding to Stumper's assertion that cholesterol clogs arteries - which we've all been told over the years, but which I do not totally buy into - and that he also eats eggs...
I happen to eat eggs myself (4-6 per week) - I think they're a great source of protein and other nutrients.
Like I've said before, anything in extremes (low or high) is probably bad - I think the same applies to cholesterol. It is a vital substance for every single cell in our body (we'd all be dead without it) - and is what comprises the bulk of our brain. I think one of the reasons that some experience cognitive problems on statins is that the cholesterol-lowering effect can affect the brain in some, and that at least one of the statins (can't recall which) is known to cross the blood-brain barrier.
Stumper - I hope I did not upset you - not my intention. I hope the meds continue to work wonders for you. I posted a response to you in another thead entitled " You've got to read this" - it is a summary of info I gleaned from another web site about the cause of atherosclerosis and plaque formation. Give it a read and let me know what you think. You sound like you are in great shape - exercise is one of the most important things we can do (in addition to a diet low in saturated fats, trans fats, sugars) to improve our health.
And all have a wonderful Memorial Day. Remember our war dead, and those serving today (especially those in Iraq and Afghanastan) to protect our freedoms...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Hubble,
Not upset at all. I like all kinds of indformation in front of me. I enjoy differing opinions on many things. That is the way I learn. My goal has always been to be a 'lifelong" learner. The day I quit learning is when I die. If we continue in our learning it keeps us young and healthy. :)
I will read the other thread :cool:
I heard a doctor on radio one day who sad that if we see results on the "outside" of our bodies, chances are the same thing is taking place within. I guess this sticks with me well and I agree with his medical assessment. That's why eggs, to me at least, are not a great evil as we hear so often. Back when I was on the mens retreat and experienced a muscular transfomation (outside) on a two week diet on eggs I just somehow felt that my internal organs were benefitting as well. To be honest for a long time I was the typical Cheerio and oatmeal and coffee guy every day, even until now. Those types of foods do not build lean muscle. To me they tend to make one somewhat "mushy". That is my opinion anyway.
But we have them, thank God.
In all honesty, I think that our arteries get plugged from stuffing our stomachs to much (me including). And I think that a host of clogging takes place at night. Howoften have we eaten and stuffed our stomachs right before bed with tons of fats and cholesterol rich foods? And then fall asleep? I think that is when clogging takes place.
My Dad has a good doctor who told him that it is never wise to eat after 7;00 P.M. for anyone unless it is something very very light. This was the first time I felt a doctor was seeing diet as hurtful and abusive after a certain time of day.
I used to listen to a old Southern preacher on the radio who had strong ideas about diet and he said the same thing. Not that I cared for him that much but he did have some good thoughts on the subject. :D
Stumper
05-30-2005, 03:49 PM
Yes, eggs are very high in dietary cholesterol. But keep in mind that we have been told over and over that saturated fat affects serum cholesterol far more than does dietary cholesterol.
I read a research report several months ago which indicated that, though eggs raised cholesterol, they raised both LDL and HDL, so that the risk ratio was not much changed. Since I am a great egg lover and was really missing the eggs since I'd been on a low-cholesterol diet, I decided to experiment for myself. I ate two eggs a day for approximately ten weeks. Although there is no way that I could keep my diet exactly the same as one might see in actual research, to my knowledge my diet was approximately the same otherwise for the two time periods except that by virtue of having eggs for breakfast, I ate less cereal or whole grain bread products for breakfast the second time. Here are the results from my previous lipid panel without eggs:
TC 190
LDL 101
HDL 72
TC/HDL ratio 2.6
Trigs 87
Trigs/HDL ratio 1.2
Here are the results from my eggs experiment:
TC 241
LDL 137
HDL 91
TC/HDL ratio 2.7
Trigs 68
Trigs/HDL ratio .75
So my TC/HDL ratio was changed very little. I've read other research indicating for women the ratio of trigs to HDL was a more important indicator, and on that basis, my ratio improved. My results pretty well coincided with the average results I'd read about in the research. But which is really more important, the absolute numbers or the ratios? The doctors don't all agree on that one. At this point I'm inclined to believe the ratios are more important, so I've decided to keep eggs in my diet but to back off to an average of one a day instead of two. Compromise a little, I guess.
Another point I think is really important, and that is individual differences in reactions. I just read an abstract from an article titled Effect of egg cholesterol and dietary fats on plasma lipids, lipoproteins, and apoproteins of normal women consuming natural diets. An interesting quote (bolding mine):
Uffda,
Isn't that interesting? I read the same thing about eggs raising LDL's, yes, but they also raise HDL's as well. Your experimentation is one among many that looks to prove it. :)
And actually your tri's dropped to boot!
I read a research report several months ago which indicated that, though eggs raised cholesterol, they raised both LDL and HDL, so that the risk ratio was not much changed. Since I am a great egg lover and was really missing the eggs since I'd been on a low-cholesterol diet, I decided to experiment for myself. I ate two eggs a day for approximately ten weeks. Although there is no way that I could keep my diet exactly the same as one might see in actual research, to my knowledge my diet was approximately the same otherwise for the two time periods except that by virtue of having eggs for breakfast, I ate less cereal or whole grain bread products for breakfast the second time. Here are the results from my previous lipid panel without eggs:
TC 190
LDL 101
HDL 72
TC/HDL ratio 2.6
Trigs 87
Trigs/HDL ratio 1.2
Here are the results from my eggs experiment:
TC 241
LDL 137
HDL 91
TC/HDL ratio 2.7
Trigs 68
Trigs/HDL ratio .75
So my TC/HDL ratio was changed very little. I've read other research indicating for women the ratio of trigs to HDL was a more important indicator, and on that basis, my ratio improved. My results pretty well coincided with the average results I'd read about in the research. But which is really more important, the absolute numbers or the ratios? The doctors don't all agree on that one. At this point I'm inclined to believe the ratios are more important, so I've decided to keep eggs in my diet but to back off to an average of one a day instead of two. Compromise a little, I guess.
Another point I think is really important, and that is individual differences in reactions. I just read an abstract from an article titled Effect of egg cholesterol and dietary fats on plasma lipids, lipoproteins, and apoproteins of normal women consuming natural diets. An interesting quote (bolding mine):
Uffda,
Isn't that interesting? I read the same thing about eggs raising LDL's, yes, but they also raise HDL's as well. Your experimentation is one among many that looks to prove it. :)
And actually your tri's dropped to boot!
linda115
05-30-2005, 04:25 PM
Interesting discussion on eggs. Since I started taking Vytorin two months ago, I have also switched to eating Egg Beaters every day. No real eggs, sigh... Now I wonder if my miracle numbers were a result of Vytorin or 'no eggs.' I love real eggs but Egg Beaters is okay too.
HubbleRules
05-30-2005, 06:01 PM
Linda,
Your total cholesterol decrease (241 down to 139 in only 3 months) is clearly due to the Vytorin. The statins are very effective at lowering cholesterol.
I would imagine your diet helped somewhat, but would not (IMHO) account for such a swift drop (unless of course you switched from eating McDonalds 24x7 to a normal diet :D ).
Good luck with the Vytorin...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Your total cholesterol decrease (241 down to 139 in only 3 months) is clearly due to the Vytorin. The statins are very effective at lowering cholesterol.
I would imagine your diet helped somewhat, but would not (IMHO) account for such a swift drop (unless of course you switched from eating McDonalds 24x7 to a normal diet :D ).
Good luck with the Vytorin...
HubbleRules
:cool:
Stumper
05-30-2005, 09:30 PM
Interesting discussion on eggs. Since I started taking Vytorin two months ago, I have also switched to eating Egg Beaters every day. No real eggs, sigh... Now I wonder if my miracle numbers were a result of Vytorin or 'no eggs.' I love real eggs but Egg Beaters is okay too.
Linda,
My guess is that it would not matter whether you ate real eggs or egg beaters during the last 3 months. The Vytorin would have given you the same numbers because of how it works. It (Zetia) kicks the cholesterol in the butt before it ever enters your system by blocking it in the small intestine. The same goes for me.
If any gets past the intestine the liver takes care of it, or the Zocor side of Vytorin.
So, it was the Vytorin. I ate normal meals and even had eggs on a couple of occassions and mine dropped to 115. I just checked it yesterday on my Cardiocheck and it was 108! And I also had another reading a few days before that at 118. I went to my doc and now he wants a cardiocheck. But I still think my total cholesterol is now to low. The doc disagrees and now tells me I am 100% heart attack free. He wants me in for bloodwork in July (muscle enzymes) at which I will be able to compare cardiocheck with lab results, BUT I will not see him until September. So I might not see results until then.
But I might still break my 10/20 Vytorin in half because I still think I am to low now. What can it hurt? I can retest in a couple of weeks to see results. If I feel it has went up to much I can easily just take full dose again.
Linda,
My guess is that it would not matter whether you ate real eggs or egg beaters during the last 3 months. The Vytorin would have given you the same numbers because of how it works. It (Zetia) kicks the cholesterol in the butt before it ever enters your system by blocking it in the small intestine. The same goes for me.
If any gets past the intestine the liver takes care of it, or the Zocor side of Vytorin.
So, it was the Vytorin. I ate normal meals and even had eggs on a couple of occassions and mine dropped to 115. I just checked it yesterday on my Cardiocheck and it was 108! And I also had another reading a few days before that at 118. I went to my doc and now he wants a cardiocheck. But I still think my total cholesterol is now to low. The doc disagrees and now tells me I am 100% heart attack free. He wants me in for bloodwork in July (muscle enzymes) at which I will be able to compare cardiocheck with lab results, BUT I will not see him until September. So I might not see results until then.
But I might still break my 10/20 Vytorin in half because I still think I am to low now. What can it hurt? I can retest in a couple of weeks to see results. If I feel it has went up to much I can easily just take full dose again.