Vegetarian/Vegan ?'s [Archive] - HealthBoards Message Boards

picksie

06-03-2005, 12:51 PM

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tdot

06-03-2005, 01:13 PM

Becoming a vegetarian or vegan doesn't necissarily mean that you'll lose weight or be healthier. Learning to eat properly in general is probably what you need to do. I was a vegetarian for 7 years (13-20). I was a teenager and didn't know how to do it properly. I would just not eat meat. I ate some fish and chicken, but generally I just removed the meat from whatever I ate. I realize now that this was a silly/immature thing to do. I was a teenager and had no clue what I was doing.

My recommendation to you would be to try to limit your saturated/trans fat intake - you can do this by cutting down on the red meat you eat, and replacing it with better protein sources such as fatty fish to get omega-3 fatty acids, beans, lentils, tofu etc. That way you don't need to be fully vegan, but you are incoporating the foods that are the most beneficial for you from the vegan diet.

Basically what I do is only eat red meat once or twice a week. I try to limit my intake of processed meats and foods. I eat a lot of salmon, boneless skinless chicken breast, beans, lentils, chick peas, tofu and that way I get the best of both worlds. I get to have a nice steak once a week without feeling guilty about it, but I'm getting lots of good protein sources.

Does that make sense? This may not be the approach you want to take, but I have found it to work for me. Yes, I'm only 24 and haven't had kids, but I have Addison's disease and take steroids everyday and will for the rest of my life. I'm at a good weight and pleased with it.

Good luck!

mellowfish

06-03-2005, 07:42 PM

If the diet you consume now is "crappy"- too much animal protein, dairy, fats, refined sugars/flours, and overcooked/canned veggies, and you make a fully educated transition to a vegetarian diet that is balanced with enough calories, you will almost certainly lose weight as a result of eating a clean healthy diet--this holds even more true with a proper vegan diet.

DO NOT think that vegetarian/vegan"ism" is an instant panacea for weight loss- although incorporating it into being a lifelong habit offers amazing benefits to your long-run health and will help your body maintain your "natural" weight.

When I first became a vegetarian I did it for my health, having studied nutrition for years it still took me about 18 months to make a full transition away from meat and other "unhealthy" ( ;) ) eating habits I had. I'm now vegan for many other reasons as well.

I do not eat ANY processed foods. I eat a lot of fruit, especially early on in the day, and most of my raw veggies I juice or pulverize in the Vita-mix, this makes undigestible fibers much easier on the digestive tract, not to mention my jaws. I consume a lot of whole grains- cereal grains can be cooked just like rice. Also beans, nuts/seeds, legumes, and soybean products. I love to cook, and I enjoy knowing my body is healthy because of the nutritious foods I put into it. If I season, I use only herbs and spices, sea salt, if ever used. The only oil I heat is extra-virgin olive, I eat this every day along flax oil and an avocado.

Making the switch is not easy, especially if you are cooking for other poeple. If you are able to try it for a week, then do so to see how you feel, it certainly won't hurt you :) . Starting out it makes it easier if you plan in advance what you are going to eat for a whole day. Ther is a lot of good info on the WWW also. Regards.

Losec20mg

06-03-2005, 08:46 PM

Datura

06-03-2005, 10:23 PM

Depending on how fond of meat you are, you may want to quit cold turkey or slowly ween yourself off certain meats.

From personal experience, being vegetarian didn't result in any weight loss.

Jess75

06-03-2005, 11:05 PM

tdot you'r only 24 :)..wow you screamed at me along time ago..LOL I thought you were like 62..LOL..ok i said enough..vegetarian or vegan would be a long shot for me.. i eat just about any type of meat put there..mostly organic ;)..

chow
LOL, what did tdot "scream" at you about? And, yah I agree, you don't need to omit meat from the diet to lose weight. Although you could lose weight becoming a vegetarian, but my guess is that it would probably be harder since you need extra protein for maintaing muscle. I know there are other sources from non animal sources but, unless you want to eat a lot of tofu then so be it. I would call my self a semi-ominivore, lol! :D

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I would guess that it would be easy if you chose the dairy and egg route(lacto-ovo vegetarian).

tdot

06-06-2005, 10:13 AM

tdot you'r only 24 :)..wow you screamed at me along time ago..LOL I thought you were like 62..LOL..ok i said enough..vegetarian or vegan would be a long shot for me.. i eat just about any type of meat put there..mostly organic ;)..

chow

Well I didn't actually scream at you, we were simply having a discussion. I love discussing. My boyfriend says I should have been a lawyer, I love a good discussion. And yes, I'm only 24, but do have 6 years of university and 2 years of being a health professional behind me. Maybe peopel say I'm wiser than my age.

Cheers,

blondie79

06-06-2005, 08:10 PM

I'm a lactose intolerant meat-eater, and I have a nice & lean body. Lean meat isn't bad- IMO its all the dairy crap that is. My diet consists of fruits (dried & fresh), veggies, lean meat, nuts, whole grain products, quite a few soy products and a lot of water. Absolutely no soda!! Thanks to cutting out dairy and only eating lean meats, my cholesterol is very low as well. (Soy milk and yogurt are great dairy alternatives.) I agree with Tdot, a lot of ill-informed people jump on the vegetarian bandwagon. Make sure you do a lot of research before you jump on it too, because vegetarian is NOT synonymous with thin OR healthy.

Jess75

06-06-2005, 08:29 PM

blondie79

06-06-2005, 08:32 PM

Yah the dairy is bad since you have an allergy! There isn't anything wrong with "organic" cottage cheese and yogurt. They are very low in lactose. There IS some contraversey about cows milk but, it's all a matter of opinion on that anymore. :rolleyes:

Actually, intolerance and allergy are two very different things. Allergy is an immune response; intolerance is the inability to digest. My body quit making the enzyme required to digest lactose when I was about 20. I could normally eat dairy like anyone else until then. Now that I don't eat it anymore, my health and physique has vastly improved (and I was never fat to begin with.) I've been on both sides of dairy so to speak, and that has been my experience.

Blondie

Jess75

06-06-2005, 09:04 PM

Actually, intolerance and allergy are two very different things. Allergy is an immune response; intolerance is the inability to digest. My body quit making the enzyme required to digest lactose when I was about 20. I could normally eat dairy like anyone else until then. Now that I don't eat it anymore, my health and physique has vastly improved (and I was never fat to begin with.) I've been on both sides of dairy so to speak, and that has been my experience.

Blondie
Yah, I knew that, about an allergy and intolorance but I wasn't thinking, lol. ANd you said that dairy was crap, and I said yah for you since you have and intolorance(not allergy, WHOOPS! my bad). :D :)

llamamuffinmama

06-11-2005, 06:23 PM

I've been vegetarian for over 13 years. I was lacto-ovo, and have now been vegan for several years. I found that when I went vegetarian, I became what I now call "cheesitarian", and replaced a lot of the flesh I was eating with dairy, especially cheese. I probably ate more animal products than most meat eaters, it's just that it was cheese rather than meat, so I didn't get the benefits that I could have from vegetarianism at first. However, when I went vegan and instead of replacing one animal product(meat) with another(cheese), I replaced animal products with foods all from the plant kingdom, I lost a large amount of weight with an ease I had never thought would be possible. If I'm not careful, I certainly can gain weight as a vegan, but it is SO MUCH EASIER for me to maintain a healthy weight now. I have a ton more energy, and I love all the delicious food. Once I made up my mind to do it, it was very easy for me to go vegetarian, and then to go vegan, too.

So, I'd say go for it and try to cut back on animal products however works for you. Just be careful not to fall into the "cheese trap" and you should be on your way to better health!

Also, as you probably know, there's nothing to the "but how will you get your protein" thing. cereal grains, vegetables, peas and lentils, pulses and beans, nuts and nut butters, tahini, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, chili, tvp, tofu, hummus, seitan, miso, faux meats (like soybacon, veggie sausage patties, veggie hot dogs, etc), whole grains, nondairy milks, etc. if you're getting enough calories and not living on soda and potato chips (which, btw, aren't a good idea for weight loss. :jester: ), it would be pretty much impossible not to get enough protein. most people on a standard american diet get over twice the amount they need, as reflected in a lot of the diseases they come down with, i.e. gallstones, kidney stones, calciium loss from bones leading to osteoporosis, etc.

xismybaby

06-15-2005, 06:47 PM

xismybaby

06-15-2005, 07:07 PM

So I have been thinking A LOT about my diet, lifestyle, health, etc and have decided it's time to make some real overhauls where the food I put into my mouth is concerned. I have a lot of digestive/health issues and I have to attribute that mostly to what I eat, or maybe don't. Anyway, I have been doing some research on becoming vegetarian and maybe eventually vegan.

I guess I am curious how hard the transition is? I like a good steak and chicken breast and am a huge seafood/fish fan... I don't think I want to do this for the animal welfare reasons as much as the fact that the overall lifestyle seems to be a much healthier one than the average "american" diet.

Also, is weight loss synonymous with a veg diet? I haven't been the same since my two kids and maybe cutting out all that crap may help??? So far, it seems nothing else is working in that department, low carb, low cal, etc.

So I'm looking forward to hearing thoughts on this....

Hey picksie~ My transition from meat-eater to Vegetarian was quite easy..It was very easy for me because I did it because of the love I have for animals. Everytime I would see meat of any kind (beef, chicken, fish..etc) I would think of the poor animals that had to suffer a miserable life and horrible death. I will admit fish was the hardest to give up though (i love sushi and salmon).

It is a known fact that Vegetarians and Vegans are more healthy than meat-eaters (they have to eat right though)..You cant eat cookies, ice cream, potato chips, french fries..etc...and be healthy. There is alot of health risks that come along with meat-eating, such as Heart disease, clogged arteries, colon cancer, higher cholesterol, higher increase in blood pressure, strokes..etc. So it is wise for anyone to make the transition from eating meat to becoming a Vegetarian.

As for weight loss, well many Vegetarians and Vegans are slim, but its due to how they eat. Just because you dont eat meat doesnt mean you eat right. As I said above, you cant live on junk food. You need to get a high amount of Veggies, whole grains, nuts..etc. As for the protein aspect (every meat-eater I know always says, "how do you get your protein"?) like llamamuffinmama said: You can get protein in almost everything. Soy is one of the best sources of protein, Veggie burgers have just as much protein as regular beef burgers. Veggies themselves have protein, peanut butter has protein..etc. The list goes on and on. As for the people that say chicken is good, well its better than red meat but since the chickens dont have room to move around at all...all that meat turns into pure fat. As for fish (i'd say its the best to eat out of all the animals) the toxins in the water get into the scales of the fish which isnt that great for you either. But if you are going to eat an animal, id say the least harmful is Fish (if you want good fats and omegas drink Flaxseed oil).

In conclusion, I'd say try the vegetarian diet and see how it goes. Get a vegetarian cookbook or get a book about becoming a Vegetarian. It doesnt happen over night so slowly cut out meat to adjust. I guarentee that you will feel much better about your health if you make this life change. :)

Good luck in whatever you deside to do :D

xismybaby

06-15-2005, 07:14 PM

Actually, intolerance and allergy are two very different things. Allergy is an immune response; intolerance is the inability to digest. My body quit making the enzyme required to digest lactose when I was about 20. I could normally eat dairy like anyone else until then. Now that I don't eat it anymore, my health and physique has vastly improved (and I was never fat to begin with.) I've been on both sides of dairy so to speak, and that has been my experience.

Blondie

I have heard many times that no one is lactose intolerant...has anyone else heard that before?

cherylr819

06-15-2005, 10:30 PM

( - removed - )

I've been doing so much research in the last few months. A great book to read is "The China Study" by T Collin Campbell...it's an eye opener!

tdot

06-16-2005, 10:06 AM

I'm confused :confused: You said you were a vegetarian for 7 years but you ate chicken and fish? This does not categorize a Vegetarian at all. Vegetarians dont eat any animals so how did you eat chicken and fish and be a Vegetarian (just a question)?

Xismy baby,
Like I said, I was 13 when I started this and did not stop eating meat because of animal rights/health, I just didn't like meat at the time. And when I said "a little chicken and fish", I mean very little, like once or twice in a six month period. Also you must remember that there are various forms of vegetarianism. It always bothers me when people think that the way "they" do it is necessarily the "only" way. Ya know? If I were to become vegetarian now I would be a vegan, but I actually like meat now, so I think I'll keep eating it.

xismybaby

06-16-2005, 11:12 AM

Xismy baby,
Like I said, I was 13 when I started this and did not stop eating meat because of animal rights/health, I just didn't like meat at the time. And when I said "a little chicken and fish", I mean very little, like once or twice in a six month period. Also you must remember that there are various forms of vegetarianism. It always bothers me when people think that the way "they" do it is necessarily the "only" way. Ya know? If I were to become vegetarian now I would be a vegan, but I actually like meat now, so I think I'll keep eating it.

Yes there are different types of Vegetarians (but they really are not pure Vegetarians).
Pesco-vegetarians (i was once this)...I never considered myself a pure vegetarian so I never told anyone I was. If they said oh your'e a vegetarian, i'd say "well I eat fish still".

See this always bothers me when people consider themselves Vegetarians when they still consume once living animals. Its sending out the wrong message I think. Its telling people that just as long as you dont eat alot of meat or if you cut out one type of meat, you are a Vegetarian. This is so far from the truth.

So I was just confused about "the chicken and fish" thing :)

tdot

06-16-2005, 03:03 PM

tdot

06-16-2005, 03:05 PM

xismybaby

06-16-2005, 03:33 PM

I just think it's silly to have such strict labels on things. If a person basically doesn't eat any flesh and they want to call themselves vegetarians, I think that is fine. I work in a hospital where the vegetarian menu actually includes dairy products and fish. The vegan menu does not include any animal products at all. I believe that veganism, not vegetarianism is the most used term for not eating any animal products.

So they got the Vegan menu right but not the Vegetarian? Hmm...thats weird :confused:
I just dont get it, what are Fish not animals or something?

Vegetarians and Vegans are different...but that doesnt mean that Vegetarians are able to eat some animals and if they do then they are not Vegetarian..Plain and simple :)

tdot

06-16-2005, 03:45 PM

xismybaby

06-16-2005, 07:36 PM

Like I said, if someone wants to be Vegetarian and consumes animal flesh like fish once a year, there is nothing stopping them from saying they are Vegetarian. There is no law stating that they can't believe and state that.

I agree on that front...Eating Fish once a year is different than what I was trying to get at. Its that these people claiming to be Vegetarians dont just eat Fish once a year, They eat chicken alot or fish or whatever the animal might be. Thats all I was saying, but if you choose to eat fish once a year and call yourself a Vegetarian then I agree you pretty much are but if you consume fish or anything else more like every other week then I'd have to say you definitly are not.

I see where your coming from and I hope you see where i'm coming from :)

Take care

girlygirl11

06-16-2005, 08:06 PM

xismybaby

06-16-2005, 11:40 PM

There are different degrees of vegetarianism and I know many people who don't eat meat except for chicken and/or fish. The chicken is a stretch, but technically eating fish still counts because fish aren't mammals and for various other reasons. Those that are 'hardcore' vegetarians or vegans probably disagree with calling these people vegetarians,and that does nothing but say that those people are simply closed minded..the whole point (from what i understand) of avoiding eating meat and/or animals was to protect animal cruelty, and not to become a label or trend..what does it matter what others call themselves if you believe you are doing what is right?

I dont think I'm close-minded at all...For some people the whole point of being Vegetarian or Vegan is to help the animals (why I'm a Veggie). Now it doesnt quite make sense if you eat one animal and not eat others...does it? You are pretty much favoring one species over the other and thats not the idea.

For the people who choose to be Veg/Vegan for health reasons and still consume Fish, They are Pesco-Vegetarians and should make that clear (they shouldnt call themselves Vegetarians because that sends the wrong message out to people).

This isnt about Labels or Trends :nono: (to some people it may be, which is sad) its about keeping the truth and not spreading false ideas around. Confusion is not something that Vegetarianism should be about.

The dictionary states:
Vegetarianism: the theory or practice of living on a diet made up of vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts, and sometimes eggs or dairy products.

No where in the dictionary does it have all different types of Vegetarians (pesco, pollo)...Because we as a people just made those up. Vegetarianism goes all the way back to 1851.

I guess no-a-days everyone could be considered a Vegetarian?...This doesnt make me close-minded because I would like to keep Vegetarianism true to its purest form.

llamamuffinmama

06-19-2005, 03:40 AM

Vegetarian means no animal flesh- no mammals, no birds, no fish.
Someone who eats animals occasionally is not a vegetarian, they are an omnivore who eats mostly vegetarian food, or an "almost-vegetarian".

Those of us who are vegetarian can be sensitive about the misuse of the term for a few reasons. One of those is that people calling themselves vegetarian while consuming animals leads to confusion for us when eating out, i.e. you tell a waitperson you're vegetarian, and they offer you a chicken curry or bring you a soup with chicken stock or something with fish or fish sauce in it...because they've heard other people say they're vegetarian but then go on to eat chicken or fish or the "juices" of those animals' bodies.

Also, I have to add that while someone might call himself a "pollo-vegetarian" or a "pesco-vegetarian", not only are they still EATING ANIMALS (which is contrary to the most basic and universal definition of the word vegetarian), but they are consuming the smallest animals. Therefore, they're actually quite likely to be causing a far *higher* number of animal deaths through their dietary choices than your average meat and potatoes omnivore. To get the same amount of meat meals (pound for pound) that you'd get from one cow being slaughtered, you would have to consume over 230 slaughtered chickens. Or many more fishes... So a much much higher number of these animals are killed (approx. 9 billion chickens a year in the US alone). Also, the chicken industry and commercial fishing entail some of the most heinous industrialized animal cruelty fathomable. As do dairy and egg production. There is a lot of information about these things online if you search Why Vegan or Try Veg.

So for those of us who are vegetarian in part out of compassion and a commitment to non-violence, it can get very annoying to have the spirit of our lifestyle and dietary choices be misunderstood, distorted and misrepresented- to the point where, ironically, some so-called "vegetarian" lifestyle choices are in fact the antithesis of the compassion we know vegetarianism can (and should) be all about.

xismybaby

06-19-2005, 10:27 AM

kerry1

06-19-2005, 09:17 PM

What kind of digestive health problems do you have, if I may be so bold?

I've never considered becoming a vegetarian, but I am leaning toward eating organic meat only. Since I have anemia I can't afford to eliminate red meat. Since I have serious anxiety/depression problems I badly need the fatty acids from fish oil. Since I have a slight tendency towards digestive upset (a little slow sometimes) I need to eat yogurt and drink kefir. None of these are allowed by a vegan diet.

The first step I would make if I were you would be to buy a good nutrition book and I DON'T mean one of those fad diet things. Dr. Andrew Weil has written some good, sensible health books; so has Dr. Susan Lark and Dr. Nicholas Perricone. Perricone is a famous Hollywood dermatologist so he tells you how to be healthy AND have great skin at the same time.

Buy organic!! Eat organic!! And do what's right for your body, not somebody else's. Giving up chicken & beef is one thing, but can you afford to give up fish? Check out all the benefits of kefir before deciding to give up dairy products. And remember that organically bred chickens & cows do not get tortured the way commercially farmed ones do.

llamamuffinmama

06-20-2005, 12:47 AM

I've never considered becoming a vegetarian, but I am leaning toward eating organic meat only. Since I have anemia I can't afford to eliminate red meat. Since I have serious anxiety/depression problems I badly need the fatty acids from fish oil. Since I have a slight tendency towards digestive upset (a little slow sometimes) I need to eat yogurt and drink kefir. None of these are allowed by a vegan diet.

You should of course do whatever you decide is appropriate, and I won't try to convince you otherwise, but you should know that a well-planned vegan diet can easily provide necessary iron, omega fatty acids, live cultures like acidophilus, etc.

In addition to red meat, iron can be found in abundance in dried beans and dark leafy green vegetables . in fact these are better sources on a per calorie basis than meat. Although this form of iron is slightly less easily absorbed than heme iron, iron absorption is increased markedly by eating foods containing vitamin C along with foods containing iron. Most vegetarians and vegans have a higher intake of vitamin c in the diet than non-vegetarians, and vegetarians and vegans do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency anemia than do meat eaters. In addition, there are foods such as dried fruits which are very high in iron. I know a few people who had anemia, and have become vegetarian and then vegan and have not found it any more difficult as vegans to meet their iron needs.

The essential omega fatty acids are very easily obtained on a vegan diet also. Excellent sources include flax seeds, flax oil, walnuts, rapeseed oil, and tofu. Fish isn't an essential part of any diet.

The benefit of live cultures such found in dairy kefir and yogurt can also be found in soy kefir (lifeway makes one) and in a variety of delicious non-dairy yogurts, and yogurt drinks.

In other words, you may choose to eat meat, dairy, and fish, and that's your business. But if you wanted to be vegetarian or vegan, it wouldn't be a challenge to get the same nutrients from your diet without using animal foods.

KittyAngel

06-20-2005, 03:11 AM

xismybaby

06-20-2005, 11:40 AM

bump.......

xismybaby

06-20-2005, 11:41 AM

I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat fish or any other meat. It's really hard at first, but you get used to it. There are plenty of good foods out there! It also helps with weight loss. I lost 19 pounds in the last three months. I went from 140 lbs to 121 lbs. (I'm 5' 7") The problem is, it's hard to get enough protein in your diet unless you eat a lot of beans and stuff. I sometimes feel sick or light headed because of that.

KittenAngel~ I'm surprised that you don't get enough Protein...Protein is in everything. Maybe you should drink a glass of soymilk everyday or Rice Milk. Look up all the foods that are rich in Protein and start incorporating them into your diet.

Veggie burgers like Boca, Gardenburger and Soy Boy have just as much protein as meat.

Protein really shouldn't be a problem if you eat right :)

DGO1223

06-20-2005, 04:44 PM

Everyone here has made valid points. I believe that there are pluses and minuses to this way of life.

In my own experience with vegetarianism, it did not work for me, in fact it made me very sick and took months for me to recover. As far as weight, I did not lose any or gain any.

The soy in so much of the food I ate backfired on me because I have thyroid disease, and it is a no-no for TD, and I did not know that at the time. I got to the point that I felt sick and shaky constantly, and just gave it up and immediately after I began eating meat again, it started to go away. The thyroid part took a lot longer to recover from. And yes, my veg, diet was a balanced one.

I think it's not a one-size-fits all thing, it works for some, not for others.

I do believe that man was meant to eat meat, as that was the food put in front of him to eat and survive on, with little else available. I recognize that everyone has their own opinions, and I respect that, we are freely able to eat as we like. I know a few people who are vegetarians who do very well, and have talked to some that did badly, as I did. In fact, my DH did well eating that way, while I became sick, and did and suffered from it.

I guess it boils down to, if someone is interested in it, try it and see how it works for you, if it does, great, if not, do what's best for you.

llamamuffinmama

06-21-2005, 03:04 PM

again, people who eat fish, chickens, turkeys, and/or ducks are not vegetarian.

tdot

06-21-2005, 03:34 PM

YaYaGirl,
You have got it exactly correct! It depends on each individual. I always find as you would call "total vegetarians and vegans" very touchy about others using what they think is their label.

Jess75

06-21-2005, 04:59 PM

Your right YaYa girl, there ARE different types of vegetarians. THe word "vegetarian" means NO animal flesh.
Vegans CONSUME no animal flesh or anything from an animal like milk, butter, cheese etc.
Some vegans restrict leather and fur, plus makeup.

There are differen't ways to label people that don't eat like the regular omnivore so instead of saying "Well, I only eat fish but no other animal products." It's a lot easier to say, "I'm a pesco vegetarian." which gives someone the impression(without a tough explaination) that they don't eat anykind of animal meat except fish.

THen, there are semi-vegetarians: before I define it, I believe that people who claim to call themselves this, want to be known for reducing SOME type of cruelty and being environmentally friendly by stating this, which is better than nothing and I don't see a problem with it. If anything, if vegetarians weres so environmentally friendly, then ANY type of meat restriction from ANYONE should make them happy.
Semi-vegetarians:eat everything except red meat(and may exclude pork).
Some call themselves a semi vegetarian because they may only eat meat once a week as opposed to the "norm."

Ovo vegetarian: Eggs is the only animal consumption

Lacto vegetarian: Dairy only

Lacto ovo vegetarian: Eggs and Dairy

llamamuffinmama

06-21-2005, 05:06 PM

Jess75

06-21-2005, 05:17 PM

okay, what "type" of celibate is someone who has sex only once a week? once a month? a few times a year?

someone like that may have sex less frequently than most people, but they're not abstinent,therefore not a celibate.

same thing with vegetarianism. eating animals less often or eating one type of animal instead of another might set you apart from most people, but it doesn't make you vegetarian. does that make sense?

there are different types of vegetarianism, i agree.
but none of them include eating animal flesh.

i have heard the terms pesco-veg and pollo-veg, and i know how they are used. i'm not saying people can't eat only fish along with vegetarian foods or only chicken along with vegetarian foods. that's fine. the problem is with calling themselves vegetarian. these are a non-standard diets, but they should not be referred to as types of vegetarianism because they include eating dead animals. vegetarians don't eat dead animals. whether they're pigs, cows, chickens, turkeys, fishes, ducks, whatever- they're dead animals. and vegetarians don't eat them. by definition.

that's my last post on the subject, as there isn't any point to arguing over it.
i'm not being closed-minded to whatever lifestyles people choose, i'm just pointing out that meat eating (whether its red meat, poultry, or fish) is not consistent with the definition of vegetarianism.
Your right, not the word vegetarianism ITSELF, but the word behind that word for example "SEMI" makes the whole concept a totally different view. You seem like a strict vegetarian and that's great, and you should be happy that there ARE people out there who conserve or care to a degree, maybe not as much as you. And i think that's great. It's an easier way to describe themselves so they can be known to some degree that they do care, or do care about their health, environment or whatever. One who recognises somebody that is doing SOMETHING about it, especially a strict vegetarian, should be extactic. The whole "labeling" thing just makes things a lot easier. If your so environmentally friendly, then you should be happy that there are people who conserve.

One more thing, it's like saying there is no difference between a half a cup of juice as opposed to a cup. The word "half" makes a big difference.

Jess75

06-21-2005, 07:13 PM

Big difference. The word ahead of vegetarian is the type of vegetarian a person is. If you look up vegetarian on a search engine it will bring up all types. There are different types of everything. Semi this, semi that. But I know you and everyone else that doesn't agree with me on this will just continue to argue the fact. So I'm done with this child like behaviour. I've said my piece and I'm done with the arguing. Not my thing. :)
I'm not really arguing, i'm just stating my opinion(well maybe since she doesn't agree then I guess it would be considered an argument, lol).
I just don't understand why some people are bothered by this, it's ONLY a label for crying out loud. I'm not saying the word vegetarian, i'm saying "semi" etc, which like you said, is all over the net and there is no denying that.
Okay, i'm done now and i'm sorry but i just don't understand. :confused: :)

xismybaby

06-21-2005, 11:33 PM

There are different types of Vegetarians.

Types of Vegetarians

One thing that many people don't realize or understand is that there are different types of vegetarians. Each individual vegetarian has his or her own personal reasons for choosing their diet, and these reasons determine exactly what foods they eliminate. Although a few different reasons and motivations are described in the Why? section, below is just a brief definition of each type of vegetarian.

Total Vegetarians eat only plant food. They do not eat any animal foods, including fish, eggs, dairy products, and honey.

Vegans not only omit all animal products from their diets, but they also eliminate them from the rest of their life. Vegans use nothing from animals, such as leather, wool, and silk.

Lacto-Vegetarians will include dairy products into their diet of plant food.

Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians eat both eggs and dairy products.

Pesco-Vegetarians include fish into their diets.

Pollo-Vegetarians eat poultry, such as chicken, turkey, and duck.

You really dont need to explain all these different types of "Vegetarians" to me because I am fully aware of them.

As I said before: people who eat fish or chicken, turkey and duck are NOT Vegetarians...They are simply Omnivores like everyone else. Eating animals of any kind does not have anything to do with Vegetarianism...People should just get into the habit of saying " I only eat_______" and leave the Vegetarian out of it.

xismybaby

06-21-2005, 11:42 PM

Big difference. The word ahead of vegetarian is the type of vegetarian a person is. If you look up vegetarian on a search engine it will bring up all types. There are different types of everything. Semi this, semi that. But I know you and everyone else that doesn't agree with me on this will just continue to argue the fact. So I'm done with this child like behaviour. I've said my piece and I'm done with the arguing. Not my thing. :)

Yayagirl we are just having a conversation..no one is arguing we are just disagreeing and its obvious that our minds are not going to change. I just like to get my point across like everyone else and its okay that we all dont agree..after all thats why we all have different minds :)

Take Care

racehorse

06-25-2005, 08:44 PM

Jess75

06-25-2005, 08:52 PM

racehorse

06-25-2005, 11:57 PM

What are non starchy vegetables? Or starchy?
Do you eat rice? (brown) what kind of nuts?
I vitually agree with you except for the legumes.
Oh, and how do you explain "bread eating" in the bible? I'm not a fan of gluten or wheat, but I think it was spelt bread.

I eat no grains that means no rice, corn, wheat, rye, barley or other gluten containing grains and all the other grains like amaranth, quinoa etc. No grains mean just that ... zero. They did not exist in the diet before agriculture was developed just 10,000 years ago. I don't "explain" the bible and have no reason to accept it as a dietary resource. Legumes are dangerous for many reasons but in short they can cause absorbtion problems, thyroid problems, pancreatic problems, blood clotting problems and then there is the storage problem that might allow cancer producing aflatoxins to be formed in dangerous concentrations. The idea is to eat things that evolution designed us to eat ... that is a diet that generally is low glycemic, fairly high protein, high fat and to avoid like the plague processed and manmade foods, especially vegetable oils and the ever present GMO soy products. Starchy vegs are potatoes of all kinds and most roots and hard squash, so I eat most everything else you can buy in the fresh produce section of your local supermarket. While I think vegan diets are far off the mark the worst thing about the diet is the often large amounts of processed foods consumed. When food scientists make your food look out, and you can tell this by the chemistry experiment that is on the label. Anyone that does any real investigation of soy, for instance, will never eat the stuff again. If its in a box, can or most packages I don't eat it.

Jess75

06-26-2005, 12:04 AM

I eat no grains that means no rice, corn, wheat, rye, barley or other gluten containing grains and all the other grains like amaranth, quinoa etc. No grains mean just that ... zero. They did not exist in the diet before agriculture was developed just 10,000 years ago. I don't "explain" the bible and have no reason to accept it as a dietary resource. Legumes are dangerous for many reasons but in short they can cause absorbtion problems, thyroid problems, pancreatic problems, blood clotting problems and then there is the storage problem that might allow cancer producing aflatoxins to be formed in dangerous concentrations. The idea is to eat things that evolution designed us to eat ... that is a diet that generally is low glycemic, fairly high protein, high fat and to avoid like the plague processed and manmade foods, especially vegetable oils and the ever present GMO soy products. Starchy vegs are potatoes of all kinds and most roots and hard squash, so I eat most everything else you can buy in the fresh produce section of your local supermarket. While I think vegan diets are far off the mark the worst thing about the diet is the often large amounts of processed foods consumed. When food scientists make your food look out, and you can tell this by the chemistry experiment that is on the label. Anyone that does any real investigation of soy, for instance, will never eat the stuff again. If its in a box, can or most packages I don't eat it.
Hmmm, so it gets right down to just meat, fruits, veggies and most nuts huh? Boring :yawn: lol
I'm sure you may enjoy it though, but i like beans, high quality grains, and rice. :( That would be too hard for me to follow.

xismybaby

06-26-2005, 01:16 PM

I am new to these boards and so it was of interest to read this entire thread. There seems to be considerable contention about how to define vegetarians. I can understand the lacto/ovo vegetarian description and the vegan one but if one eats animal flesh with your plant food, you are by definition an omnivore. That said, let me state I am an omnivore. I respect the decision based on ethical considerations of veg*ns to abstain from eating animal foods. I do however, have considerable reservations about the veg*n diet when it comes to health. A lack of B12 is one concern, essential fatty acids another and the use of soy and soy products as a protein/meat substitute is disasterous healthwise. Evolution designed the human body to eat animal foods and when we fight with mother nature we are sure to suffer. There are numerous studies that purport to back either view but it is clear that what evolution has created should be valued above all else. I avoid most of the foods that make up a veg*n diet. No legumes (especially processed soy) no dairy, no grains, no vegetable oils and eat fresh flesh, non starchy vegetables, fresh fruits, raw tree nuts, and natural fats. It is generally called a paleolithic diet or caveman diet and provides the nutrients that evolution designed us to eat.

Hey racehorse!

I agree with you on the definition of vegetarians but disagree with a couple things you have said...

My first disagreement would have to be with "mother nature designing us to eat meat". Since I guess you follow evolution you would know that humans most resemble herbivores, and we do NOT resemble carnivores in the slightest.
1.) Our intestines are 10 to 11 times the size of our bodies (carnivores are only 3 times the size or their bodies). Which means they were meant to pass the meat through them quickly to avoid getting ill..etc. Our intestines are not meant for meat, its meant to handle plants and fruits and grains. So when you eat that steak, that meat is rotting in your stomach for about 5 days.
2.) We have different stomach acids than real carnivores (our acids most resemble plant-eaters)
3.) Our jaws move from side to side in order to eat plants, carnivores jaws only move up and down (to chomp on flesh)
4.) whats the most obvious is our hands and mouths. We do not have claws to rip open flesh, we do not have sharp, long teeth to also rip open flesh.

Although we as humans can eat meat (because of how its prepared), its not really the best choice or the most natural to us.

EATING CLOSET TO NATURE IT THE HEALTHIEST!

As for Vegans (im a vegetarian), If they are really into Veganism they know what they are doing and probably reseached it more than anyone else. They know how to get everything they need and probably are the healthiest people in the world.

Its a FACT that Vegetarians and Vegans live longer and are healthier than meat-eaters. This only applies to the people who eat right, not to the ones who dont exactly know what they are doing (eating fast food, complex carbs, sweets).

If you are going to be a vegetarian or vegan, i would advise reseaching it first.

Can I ask how you eat fresh flesh?

It does seem that you eat very healthy but I eat very healthy too and I do that without consuming meat. I'm sure the Vegans eat a well-balanced meal too...It all depends on the individual :)

racehorse

06-26-2005, 02:45 PM

Hey racehorse!

I agree with you on the definition of vegetarians but disagree with a couple things you have said...

My first disagreement would have to be with "mother nature designing us to eat meat". Since I guess you follow evolution you would know that humans most resemble herbivores, and we do NOT resemble carnivores in the slightest.
1.) Our intestines are 10 to 11 times the size of our bodies (carnivores are only 3 times the size or their bodies). Which means they were meant to pass the meat through them quickly to avoid getting ill..etc. Our intestines are not meant for meat, its meant to handle plants and fruits and grains. So when you eat that steak, that meat is rotting in your stomach for about 5 days.
2.) We have different stomach acids than real carnivores (our acids most resemble plant-eaters)
3.) Our jaws move from side to side in order to eat plants, carnivores jaws only move up and down (to chomp on flesh)
4.) whats the most obvious is our hands and mouths. We do not have claws to rip open flesh, we do not have sharp, long teeth to also rip open flesh.

Although we as humans can eat meat (because of how its prepared), its not really the best choice or the most natural to us.

EATING CLOSET TO NATURE IT THE HEALTHIEST!

As for Vegans (im a vegetarian), If they are really into Veganism they know what they are doing and probably reseached it more than anyone else. They know how to get everything they need and probably are the healthiest people in the world.

Its a FACT that Vegetarians and Vegans live longer and are healthier than meat-eaters. This only applies to the people who eat right, not to the ones who dont exactly know what they are doing (eating fast food, complex carbs, sweets).

If you are going to be a vegetarian or vegan, i would advise reseaching it first.

Can I ask how you eat fresh flesh?

It does seem that you eat very healthy but I eat very healthy too and I do that without consuming meat. I'm sure the Vegans eat a well-balanced meal too...It all depends on the individual :)

I would be interested in your sources for the evolution of humans as plant eaters. While there are some veg*n sources that make claims such as yours there are to my knowledge no scientific basis to them. Herbivores have huge guts compared to body size, humans do not and in fact have guts about the same as a dog. The teeth issue has likewise been resolved in favor of the meat eating hominoid. Our jaws in fact do move up and down and do not grind side to side. Dentition of herbivores is completely different than humans. So, I would suggest using your search engine and locating the many sites that can enlarge on my view. It is as they say, robust. As far as Vegetarians knowing more about what they are doing as a class, I would have to differ. I think most are caught up in the ethics of killing animals and try to find a rationale for not eating meat and then selectively locate information that makes it seem healthy. A natural vegan diet cannot be healthy if for no other reason than it is void of an essential vitamin (B12). So our ancestors could not have been herbivores for this reason alone. Think about this, without grains, legumes and root crops (which only appeared 10,000 years ago) there is no way a human could chew and digest enough food to stay alive on soley plant food. I suggest you do this experiment. Without modern high calorie fruits (unavailable before agriculture) you cannot eat enough to maintain your weight, garner sufficient nutrients, or get sufficient protein. One last thought when you have decided to become omnivous, start with small amounts of meat. Vegetarians often have trouble with meat because their stomachs are no longer producing enough acid. But stick with it and your body will respond. Good luck with the experiment.

xismybaby

06-26-2005, 03:56 PM

I would be interested in your sources for the evolution of humans as plant eaters. While there are some veg*n sources that make claims such as yours there are to my knowledge no scientific basis to them. Herbivores have huge guts compared to body size, humans do not and in fact have guts about the same as a dog. The teeth issue has likewise been resolved in favor of the meat eating hominoid. Our jaws in fact do move up and down and do not grind side to side. Dentition of herbivores is completely different than humans. So, I would suggest using your search engine and locating the many sites that can enlarge on my view. It is as they say, robust. As far as Vegetarians knowing more about what they are doing as a class, I would have to differ. I think most are caught up in the ethics of killing animals and try to find a rationale for not eating meat and then selectively locate information that makes it seem healthy. A natural vegan diet cannot be healthy if for no other reason than it is void of an essential vitamin (B12). So our ancestors could not have been herbivores for this reason alone. Think about this, without grains, legumes and root crops (which only appeared 10,000 years ago) there is no way a human could chew and digest enough food to stay alive on soley plant food. I suggest you do this experiment. Without modern high calorie fruits (unavailable before agriculture) you cannot eat enough to maintain your weight, garner sufficient nutrients, or get sufficient protein. One last thought when you have decided to become omnivous, start with small amounts of meat. Vegetarians often have trouble with meat because their stomachs are no longer producing enough acid. But stick with it and your body will respond. Good luck with the experiment.

Well of course our jaws move up and down (they also move side to side).

Your saying Vegans cannot be healthy because of one vitamin? Come on now, thats pretty naive.

Do you know anything about other countries in the world who eat a small portion of meat (some dont eat any). They live longer than Americans, thats for sure.

I really hate when people say "you cant get enough protein"...is this your strategy in getting people to eat meat? Protein exists in mostly everything so please save the "not enough protein" bit. Americans get TOO MUCH protein as it is.

I have been an omnivore for many years and I will tell you now that I will never go back.

Heres some facts for ya: :)

"History
For 99.999% of history, mankind has eaten whatever it could find, grow, kill or raise. Issues of what might be the optimum diet, and what the health consequences might be of various diets, were never studied in depth.
After World War II, scientists began for the first time to compile comprehensive statistics correlating the diet-styles and health of all the populations in the world.

Correlations
One fact that emerged consistently was the strong correlation between heavy flesh-eating and short life expectancy. The Eskimos, the Laplanders, the Greenlanders, and the Russian Kurgi tribes stood out as the populations with the highest animal flesh consumption in the world and also as among the populations with the lowest life expectancies, often only about 30 years.
Climatic Factors
It was found that this was not due to the severity of their climates alone. Other groups, living in harsh conditions, but subsisting with little or no animal flesh, had some of the highest life expectancies in the world. For example, an unusually large number of the Russian Caucasians, the Yucatan Indians, the East Indian To-das and the Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years.
Modern Technology
The United States has the world?s most sophisticated medical technology, and one of the most temperate climates. It?s one the of the highest consumers of meat and animal products in the world. It also has one of the lowest life expectancies of the industrialised nations.

Longest life spans in the world
The cultures with the longest life spans in the world are the Vilcambas, who live in the Andes of Ecuador, the Abkhasians, who live on the Black Sea in the USSR, and the Hunzas, who live in the Himalayas of Northern Pakistan. 4 Researchers discovered a "striking similarity" in the diets of these groups, scattered though they are in different parts of the planet. All three are either totally vegetarian or close to it. 5 The Hunzas who are the largest of the three groups, eat almost no animal products. Meat and dairy products combined account for only 1?% of their total calories. 6
Particularly striking to researchers who have visited these cultures is that the people not only live so long, but that they enjoy full, active lives throughout their many years, and show no signs of the many degenerative diseases that afflict the elderly in our culture.

"They work and play at 80 and be-yond; most of those who reach their 100th birthday continue to be ac-tive, and retirement is unheard of. The absence of (excess protein) in their diets engenders slower growth and slim, compact body frames. With age, wisdom accumulates, but physical degeneration is limited so the senior citizens of these remote societies have something unique to contribute to the lives of others. They are revered."

Now I bet you wont believe this either but it was worth a shot ;)

senor_sickly

06-27-2005, 04:23 AM

auntjudyg

06-27-2005, 11:23 AM

Its a FACT that Vegetarians and Vegans live longer and are healthier than meat-eaters. This only applies to the people who eat right, not to the ones who dont exactly know what they are doing (eating fast food, complex carbs, sweets).

Could you please point me to any study comparing healthy eating vegetarians/vegans with healthy eating omnivores? Or what is the source of this assertion? TIA!

They know how to get everything they need and probably are the healthiest people in the world.

Again, how did you reach this conclusion? Thanks.

auntjudyg

06-27-2005, 11:30 AM

i'm not sure if this has been stated, but i'd just like to point out that veganism is an ethical choice. someone who eats a vegan diet for weightloss or health reasons isn't a vegan, they're a strict vegetarian. but if you'd like more of an incentive than health concerns, try visiting meetyourmeat.com and see where your animal products come from.
There are farmers who raise animals under humane conditions. I don't understand why more people who presumably are concerned with the treatment of animals don't support such farmers. Increasing their numbers and making their produce more widely available would do more to improve the treatment of animals than boycotting, IMHO.

xismybaby

06-27-2005, 12:01 PM

Could you please point me to any study comparing healthy eating vegetarians/vegans with healthy eating omnivores? Or what is the source of this assertion? TIA!

Again, how did you reach this conclusion? Thanks.

In the post above I just stated some facts but the problem is, is that I cannot put websites on this message board (they dont allow it).

Here are some facts that were studied with the resources:

1.) Large studies in England and Germany showed that vegetarians were about 40 percent less likely to develop cancer compared to meateaters.1-3 In the United States, researchers studied Seventh-day Adventists, a religious group that is remarkable because, although nearly all members avoid tobacco and alcohol and follow generally healthful lifestyles, about half of the Adventist population is vegetarian, while the other half consumes modest amounts of meat. This fact allowed scientists to separate the effects of eating meat from other factors. Overall, these studies showed significant reductions in cancer risk among those who avoided meat.4 Harvard studies showed that daily meat eaters have approximately three times the risk compared to those who rarely eat meat.

2.) A number of hypotheses have been advanced to explain the connection between meat consumption and cancer risk. First, meat is devoid of fiber and other nutrients that have a protective effect. Meat also contains animal protein, saturated fat, and, in some cases, carcinogenic compounds such as heterocyclic amines (***) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) formed during the processing or cooking of meat. HCAs, formed with the breakdown of meat proteins at high temperatures and PAHs, formed during the burning of organic substances, can be generated when meat is roasted or cooked over an open flame and have been shown to increase cancer risk. Numerous scientific reviews have suggested that these carcinogenic compounds are to blame for part of the correlation between meat intake and increased cancer risk. In addition, the high fat content of meat and other animal products increases hormone production, thus increasing the risk of hormone-related cancers such as breast and prostate cancer.

**This is located at American Cancer Society Promotes Disease**

Auntjudyg~
I would suggest that you just go to the search engine and type in "Vegetarians and Vegans live longer than Meat-eaters". Or "Studies between Vegetarians and Meat-eaters" (so its not bias).

It would take me forever to look up all this and type it without being able to cite resources such as websites. :)

xismybaby

06-27-2005, 12:10 PM

There are farmers who raise animals under humane conditions. I don't understand why more people who presumably are concerned with the treatment of animals don't support such farmers. Increasing their numbers and making their produce more widely available would do more to improve the treatment of animals than boycotting, IMHO.

The farmers you are talking about are not widespread. Of course there are a few but the meat you are eating are generally coming from slaughter houses.

*Some people just think it is wrong to eat animals in the first place so this wouldnt apply to them.

This is a good idea, but not realistic. The amount of meat people consume is extraordinary. You would have to get way more humane farmers than the amount today. If the demand for meat wasnt so high then maybe these farmers (and animals) would have a chance, but in todays society, at the rate we are going, slaughter houses will be around for a long time to come.

I do agree with you however :)

auntjudyg

06-27-2005, 12:12 PM

Auntjudyg~
I would suggest that you just go to the search engine and type in "Vegetarians and Vegans live longer than Meat-eaters". Or "Studies between Vegetarians and Meat-eaters" (so its not bias).

It would take me forever to look up all this and type it without being able to cite resources such as websites. :)
No need to take time typing. From what you have cited, I see the kinds of "studies" you are citing. I don't see any indication of any study comparing healthy eaters of both types, just comparing healthy eating vegetarian with general populations (you might want to double check the meaning of "bias"). Same old nonsense. No need to look further.

xismybaby

06-27-2005, 12:21 PM

No need to take time typing. From what you have cited, I see the kinds of "studies" you are citing. I don't see any indication of any study comparing healthy eaters of both types, just comparing healthy eating vegetarian with general populations (you might want to double check the meaning of "bias"). Same old nonsense. No need to look further.

From what I posted, I dont see anything indicating that the meat-eaters are eating unhealthy? I also dont see how is "vegetarians compared to general populations"?

Bias or incline~ "BIAS suggests a settled and predictable leaning in one direction and connotes unfair prejudice" (if you put into the server "vegetarians live longer than meat-eaters"...you will find many vegetarian sites, which might give you the impression that I only go by what they say)

I think you should look further because you should see it with your own eyes.

racehorse

06-27-2005, 01:33 PM

I am reminded of the Firesign Theater quote:
"Everything you know is wrong."

Well of course our jaws move up and down (they also move side to side).

Your saying Vegans cannot be healthy because of one vitamin? Come on now, thats pretty naive.

I made the point about Vitamin B12 and the lack of it in a vegetable diet as evidence that humans did not evolve on a plant diet. They had to have B12 to live and therefore had to eat animal products.

Do you know anything about other countries in the world who eat a small portion of meat (some dont eat any). They live longer than Americans, thats for sure.

There is zero evidence of this although it is repeated by vegetarians until most believe it

I really hate when people say "you cant get enough protein"...is this your strategy in getting people to eat meat? Protein exists in mostly everything so please save the "not enough protein" bit. Americans get TOO MUCH protein as it is.

There are essential fatty acids and essential amino acids there are no essential carbohydrates. Protein consumption is limited naturally by the gut and kidneys and must be balanced with fat or carbs for optimal health.

I have been an omnivore for many years and I will tell you now that I will never go back.

Heres some facts for ya: :)

"History
For 99.999% of history, mankind has eaten whatever it could find, grow, kill or raise. Issues of what might be the optimum diet, and what the health consequences might be of various diets, were never studied in depth.

This statement is correct except for the 'raise' part. Agriculture only began about 10000 years ago so given that humans are directly related from about 2.5 million years ago would mean the 'raised' part only happened in the last 0.4%. This is significant because most of the current American diet is based on foods that were never part of our evolutionary heritage.
After World War II, scientists began for the first time to compile comprehensive statistics correlating the diet-styles and health of all the populations in the world.

Weston A Price was studying indigenous people well before WW II and the records of other early contact explorers were available to scholars.

Correlations
One fact that emerged consistently was the strong correlation between heavy flesh-eating and short life expectancy. The Eskimos, the Laplanders, the Greenlanders, and the Russian Kurgi tribes stood out as the populations with the highest animal flesh consumption in the world and also as among the populations with the lowest life expectancies, often only about 30 years.

The life expectancy of the peoples you cite only declined when they began eating the diet of Western Civilization. In fact the near all meat/Fat diet they ate in their traditional culture has been shown to be very healthy.

Climatic Factors
It was found that this was not due to the severity of their climates alone. Other groups, living in harsh conditions, but subsisting with little or no animal flesh, had some of the highest life expectancies in the world. For example, an unusually large number of the Russian Caucasians, the Yucatan Indians, the East Indian To-das and the Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years.

I have looked into these claims and found them to be universally bogus. The more vegetable the diet the less the overall life expectancy.

Modern Technology
The United States has the world?s most sophisticated medical technology, and one of the most temperate climates. It?s one the of the highest consumers of meat and animal products in the world. It also has one of the lowest life expectancies of the industrialised nations.

There are a number of reasons for this including a lower life expectancy for black people even after adjusting for Socio-Economic Status. Higher death rates for homicide and automobile crashes also affect the rates as do infant mortality because of the lack of universal health care for mothers. What isn't different is the life expectancy of those that reach say 40 years of age. Americans live as long or longer than any people on earth by that measurement.

Longest life spans in the world
The cultures with the longest life spans in the world are the Vilcambas, who live in the Andes of Ecuador, the Abkhasians, who live on the Black Sea in the USSR, and the Hunzas, who live in the Himalayas of Northern Pakistan. 4 Researchers discovered a "striking similarity" in the diets of these groups, scattered though they are in different parts of the planet. All three are either totally vegetarian or close to it. 5 The Hunzas who are the largest of the three groups, eat almost no animal products. Meat and dairy products combined account for only 1?% of their total calories. 6
Particularly striking to researchers who have visited these cultures is that the people not only live so long, but that they enjoy full, active lives throughout their many years, and show no signs of the many degenerative diseases that afflict the elderly in our culture.

These populations have all been found to greatly exagerate there ages (its a cultural thing) and the primary health benifit they have is a reduced calorie diet. A lifetime of undernourishment may be life lengthing but at what cost. Incomplete genetic development? Probably.

"They work and play at 80 and be-yond; most of those who reach their 100th birthday continue to be ac-tive, and retirement is unheard of. The absence of (excess protein) in their diets engenders slower growth and slim, compact body frames. With age, wisdom accumulates, but physical degeneration is limited so the senior citizens of these remote societies have something unique to contribute to the lives of others. They are revered."

Now I bet you wont believe this either but it was worth a shot ;)
You are right I don't believe a word. Although I should revise that because there is evidence in those cultures of the reverence and respect afforded to the old. Before writing and in these still largely illiterate societies wisdom and knowledge was stored in the brains of the old. That knowlege allowed the younger people access to what went before, and so insured survival and transmission of culture. This is a trait that is to be greatly admired from my standpoint..

The points you have made are commonly repeated without investigation of the actual primary sources. When you drill down you find they don't hold up and in fact when you stray outside or beyond the basic constuct of what evolution created you find it becoming problematic.

xismybaby

06-27-2005, 01:54 PM

Hi!

I'm sorry but your saying that the more vegetables you eat...the less life you have to live?

Where are your facts and resources on this bogus claim?

As for the U.S....well are you disagreeing that Americans do not die from heart-disease, cancers, strokes, have high cholesterol , clogged arteries, type 2 Diabetes? Do you not think that we have the highest death rates due to these health concerns? Also, how do you suppose we get all these health problems? Is it from genetics or hereditary? Why do you believe Americans have these high heath risks?

I also would like to know where you get all your information from (i know you cant post links, but maybe you have some insightful books to recommend?)

Also, how do you feel about Mad Cow disease? Because its in the news again and they just found one cow that has the disease. :eek:

Lets see..hmmmm....I think i'd rather take my chances with some Veggies than risk my life for a hamburger (but thats just me :) )

racehorse

06-27-2005, 10:37 PM

Hi!

I'm sorry but your saying that the more vegetables you eat...the less life you have to live?

You seem to purposefully try to distort in restatement what I have posted. Omnivores eat plants! Vegetables that are not legumes, grains or starchy are highly benificial when eaten with wholesome flesh. It seems clear that phyto-substances contained in those vegetables promote optimal health, the ones I have excluded do not. Since vegetarians cannot subsist without those legumes, grains or starchy vegetables it seems clear a vegetarian diet does not lead to optimal health

Where are your facts and resources on this bogus claim?
A good place to start might be to investigate the Weston A. Price Foundation.

As for the U.S....well are you disagreeing that Americans do not die from heart-disease, cancers, strokes, have high cholesterol , clogged arteries, type 2 Diabetes? Do you not think that we have the highest death rates due to these health concerns? Also, how do you suppose we get all these health problems? Is it from genetics or hereditary? Why do you believe Americans have these high heath risks?

People all over the world die of the diseases you mention. The point of fact is the large increase in those diseases are of recent vintage. If meat consumption is directly related to them the rates would be historical not recent. The great increase in vegetable oil, trans fatty acids, sugars Including refined grain products and especially high fructose corn sweetener are and will recognized as the true culprits. Remember hunter gatherer didn't have these diseases and they ate flesh,fat,high fiber veg, low sugar fruit and the occasion nut..

I also would like to know where you get all your information from (i know you cant post links, but maybe you have some insightful books to recommend?)

Also, how do you feel about Mad Cow disease? Because its in the news again and they just found one cow that has the disease. :eek:

Lets see..hmmmm....I think i'd rather take my chances with some Veggies than risk my life for a hamburger (but thats just me :) )

Well I don't eat hamburger for a number of reasons but a second BSE cow that did not enter the food system does not seem a valid reason to discontinue eating an essential part of the diet. If that one beeve is of such great importance you might try range raised lamb. It's very good. Some people like it with mint jelly but I prefer just a little rosemary rub. I like it with the bone in for flavor and to remind me where it came from.

xismybaby

06-28-2005, 12:00 PM

Well I don't eat hamburger for a number of reasons but a second BSE cow that did not enter the food system does not seem a valid reason to discontinue eating an essential part of the diet. If that one beeve is of such great importance you might try range raised lamb. It's very good. Some people like it with mint jelly but I prefer just a little rosemary rub. I like it with the bone in for flavor and to remind me where it came from.

I am not going to try any form of an animal. Just thinking about those poor defenseless living beings, makes me sick to my stomach. So if you want to eat animals go ahead, but please stop making it seem like I am going to eventually eat them or try to get me to eat them.

Its far worse trying to get people to eat animals than getting people to not eat animals.

You talking about rubbing the bone of a innocent baby lamb is not something a Vegetarian wants to hear (We know it happens but spare us the in depth details). You can save your "tips" for your meat-eating friends because I for one am NOT interested. :)

xismybaby

06-28-2005, 12:16 PM

"As for the U.S....well are you disagreeing that Americans do not die from heart-disease, cancers, strokes, have high cholesterol , clogged arteries, type 2 Diabetes? Do you not think that we have the highest death rates due to these health concerns? Also, how do you suppose we get all these health problems? Is it from genetics or hereditary? Why do you believe Americans have these high heath risks?

People all over the world die of the diseases you mention. The point of fact is the large increase in those diseases are of recent vintage. If meat consumption is directly related to them the rates would be historical not recent. The great increase in vegetable oil, trans fatty acids, sugars Including refined grain products and especially high fructose corn sweetener are and will recognized as the true culprits. Remember hunter gatherer didn't have these diseases and they ate flesh,fat,high fiber veg, low sugar fruit and the occasion nut.."

The numbers of Americans clearly are dieing from these diseases and problems more often than anyone else. Research it and find out :)

The way Americans consume MEAT is far more heavily than its ever been. Every meal contains some form of meat for an American.

The way the animals are treated also has something to do with the difference between the Meat then and the Meat now. Since the animals have no room to move and are confined to small spaces for their whole lives, their bodies (meat) turn to fat, they are very stressed which changes their hormones and chemicals in the body, they are beaten which also changes their body. I suggest you watch "Meet your Meat" on PETA's main website.

Although I do agree that Americans are eating the other things you have mentioned in higher quantities...I also believe meat plays a role in many diseases, such as Cancer, Diabetes (they are not supposed to have saturated fats, dairy..because they have a higher risk of getting heart disease), heart disease, clogged arteries, and high cholesterol.

racehorse

06-28-2005, 01:35 PM

I think I will just have to reitereate my quote from the Firesign Theater ... "Everything you know is wrong." As I have mentioned before on this or other threads that I can respect the vegan ethical concerns about animals (monocultured farming practices kill millions of living things so what with the ethics of that?) but when you try to sell a vegetarian diet as more healthful, well then you go too far and fly in the face of all good evidence. Humans evolved eating animal products and so are designed to function best when they are an integral part of the diet. Vegetarian fairytales notwithstanding, you would have to believe that humans evolved eating an all plant diet and that is impossible because there is no plant source of bio-available B12, an essential vitamin. This is an end game fact and there is no way around it.

llamamuffinmama

06-28-2005, 05:23 PM

xismybaby

06-28-2005, 06:13 PM

:) All vitamin B12 is from bacteria. B12 is present in the soil in which plant foods are grown. Modern methods of irradiation and chemical additives destroy a lot of it now, but before the advent of these technologies in modern farming, plant sources contained a lot more B12. We only require about 2-3 micrograms of B12 per day, which is a miniscule amount. Not to mention the fact excesses of the vitamin can be stored in the system and used for many years. Vegans have no higher incidence of B12 deficiency anemia than do omnivores- the idea that they do is simply a myth.

All B12 in animal foods is also bacterial, and comes either from the non-irradiated or non-scrubbed plant foods they eat or from the bacteria in their guts/intestines. It is produced in the intestines of all healthy animals (including humans). Considering that there is literally feces contaminating many animal foods, I would much rather get my B12 from non-animal sources (for example nutritional yeast which is cultivated on molasses and contains a large number of B vitamins including B12) than by eating animal crap.

As for animals being an essential part of the diet, I feel that is simply ridiculous and untrue. First, How can these domesticated farm animals be an essential part of a natural diet when they wouldn't even naturally EXIST at all without selective breeding and genetic manipulation, and couldn't survive in the wild as they are not part of any natural ecosystem? They'd be extinct in a heartbeat.

Furthermore, if from an evolutionary standpoint, you feel humans are not meant to be able to survive on a vegatarian or vegan diet, then how do you explain the millions of people worldwide thriving as vegans and vegetarians? And why are vegans and vegetarians consistently living longer than humans who eat an omnivorous diet?

I agree with you but racehorse will always try to find a way around it and call everything we know WRONG. Its easy to claim we dont know anything because we follow an ethical diet. People feel our hearts get in the way of our minds and thats just not true. Our hearts fuel our minds :)

There are so many studies linking Vegetarians and Vegans with longer life spans and its just ubsurd that Racehorse wont even listen.

Tons of people live on a Vegetarian diet and they live quite a long time. Sure tons of people live on a meat-eating diet and they could live quite long too..But studies show Vegetarians have less risks of getting certain diseases and problems. You can't go around that :)

racehorse

06-28-2005, 07:53 PM

All vitamin B12 is from bacteria. B12 is present in the soil in which plant foods are grown. Modern methods of irradiation and chemical additives destroy a lot of it now, but before the advent of these technologies in modern farming, plant sources contained a lot more B12. We only require about 2-3 micrograms of B12 per day, which is a miniscule amount. Not to mention the fact excesses of the vitamin can be stored in the system and used for many years. Vegans have no higher incidence of B12 deficiency anemia than do omnivores- the idea that they do is simply a myth.

The fact that B12 can and is stored accounts for vegans being able to function on the diet for long periods without showing overt symptoms of deficiency. What does eventually happen is B12 deficiency and that leads to permanent nerve damage and pernicious anemia. There are numerous studies/reports of B12 deficiency amongst vegans and most of the sites promoting vegan diets are careful to warn of B12 deficiencies. So you are simply repeating veg myth that is not backed even by people who espouse veganism..

All B12 in animal foods is also bacterial, and comes either from the non-irradiated or non-scrubbed plant foods they eat or from the bacteria in their guts/intestines. It is produced in the intestines of all healthy animals (including humans). Considering that there is literally feces contaminating many animal foods, I would much rather get my B12 from non-animal sources (for example nutritional yeast which is cultivated on molasses and contains a large number of B vitamins including B12) than by eating animal crap.

Nutritional yeast has NO usable B12. If it does it is because it was fortified,

As for animals being an essential part of the diet, I feel that is simply ridiculous and untrue. First, How can these domesticated farm animals be an essential part of a natural diet when they wouldn't even naturally EXIST at all without selective breeding and genetic manipulation, and couldn't survive in the wild as they are not part of any natural ecosystem? They'd be extinct in a heartbeat.

I hesitate to comment on something so obvious. Domestic animals have replaced those that hunter-gatherers used for food. This is not a difficult concept.

Furthermore, if from an evolutionary standpoint, you feel humans are not meant to be able to survive on a vegatarian or vegan diet, then how do you explain the millions of people worldwide thriving as vegans and vegetarians? And why are vegans and vegetarians consistently living longer than humans who eat an omnivorous diet?

Millions of people survive not thrive on largely vegetable diets which is a testament to the flexibility of the human organism. These people would enjoy far better health outcomes with suffiecient animal foods. You continue to confuse what you believe to be an ethical superiority with optimal nutrition.

racehorse

06-28-2005, 07:59 PM

:)

I agree with you but racehorse will always try to find a way around it and call everything we know WRONG. Its easy to claim we dont know anything because we follow an ethical diet. People feel our hearts get in the way of our minds and thats just not true. Our hearts fuel our minds :)

There are so many studies linking Vegetarians and Vegans with longer life spans and its just ubsurd that Racehorse wont even listen.

Tons of people live on a Vegetarian diet and they live quite a long time. Sure tons of people live on a meat-eating diet and they could live quite long too..But studies show Vegetarians have less risks of getting certain diseases and problems. You can't go around that :)

I would like to know of one study that makes a valid claim for vegetable diets producing longer life spans. Because something is repeated often enough does not make it true and that IS the case here. I have looked at this issue very closely and find no evidence that vegetable diets are superior. Most modern veg diets rely heavily on industrial soy products that are demonstrably toxic but that aside a veg diet cannot produce optimal health.

llamamuffinmama

06-28-2005, 09:39 PM

racehorse

06-28-2005, 11:02 PM

World Health Organization gives information about protection from diseases such as heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc. offered by a veg diet and associated lifespan increase. I believe the Framingham Heart Study does as well. As does the California-based large-scale study of the health of the Seventh Day Adventist community.

I am familar with Framingham and the 7th Day studies. There is nothing in either that suggest what you claim.

The B12 in nutritional yeast is bio-available. B12 in some other plant sources such as sea vegetables, miso, tempeh etc. on the other hand should not be counted upon as a reliable source. There are many healthy fortified foods out there and as an alternative supplementation with vegan B12 in caplet form is an easy option for those who do not want to spend time planning their diet to include it regularly. B12 supplementation is recommended by health experts as an added assurance for both vegetarians and non-vegetarians due to the overprocessing and irradiation of our collective food supply.

What can I say but wrong again about nutrititional or brewers yeast. I do understand that there is no reason for vegan's to suffer from B12 deficiency as long as they take supplements. This B12 issue was originally taken up as an evidence that humans evolved eating meat and the lack of it in vegetable sources is conclusive proof. This notwithstanding mountain of other evidence. There are a number of vegan sites that concur with my opinion about the yeasts BTW.

As for B12 deficiency being inevitable for vegans after a long enough time span as you seem to suggest, I am confident this is not the case. I know people who have been vegan for over 45 years and have had B12 and homocysteine levels checked at routine physicals and they have normal and adequate B12 stores. Likewise a friend of mine is 30 and was raised vegan- she has never had so much as a drop of milk or a bite of meat or egg in her entire life and is in robust health and is a model. I trust peer-reviewed scientific research and especially epidemiological data more than anecdotal evidence, of course, and feel secure based on that alone, but I also know over 150 healthy vegans of varying ages and demographics and only know of one who has had any problem with anemia- and she developed it prior to her becoming vegetarian, so this only increases my confidence in my diet and lifestyle.

When studied closely it appears that most vegetarian lapse from time to time as do their more rigorous vegan fellows. But remember vegetarians might be eating dairy and eggs so the B12 issue from food is mute.

Also, upon becoming vegan my health improved dramatically in several ways and I know my B12 levels to be fine in addition to better blood pressure and cholesterol, reduction of allergy symptoms, a stronger immune system, and a healthier body weight.
Allergic responses to eggs and dairy might very well have been the source of your symptoms as both can be quite allergenic. So, eliminating them from you diet could have been the reason for remission of your symptoms

I am an ethical vegan and I am not ashamed of that in the least- I am proud of it and believe it to be the most positive thing I have done in my life. But I am also very informed about the nutritional aspects of this diet and won't be snowed by pseudo-science.

I don't oppose a vegan diet based on the ethical considerations of the individual but when it is promoted as more healthful than let's say a paleo diet then I must protest.

llamamuffinmama

06-29-2005, 12:52 AM

The 7th day adventist study i cited, does in fact draw a correlation between plant diet and longer lifespan: "Life expectancies in the Adventist Health Study have recently been published. They show that this group of Seventh-day Adventists appears to be the longest-lived, formally studied population in the world (with an average life span of 78.5 years for men, 82.3 for women)."
Sources include:

Armstrong, B. (1977) Blood pressure in Seventh Day Adventist vegetarians. Am Jnl Epidemiology v.105 p.444-9

British Medical Association (1986). Diet, nutrition and health. BMA, London.

Fraser, G et al (1991) Diet and lung cancer in Seventh Day Adventists. Am Jnl Epidemiology v.133 p.683-93.

Key, T J et al. (1998) Mortality in vegetarians and non-vegetarians: a collaborative analysis of 8,300 deaths among 76,000 men and women in five prospective studies. Public Health Nutrition.

Key, T J. et al. (1999) Health Benefits of a vegetarian diet. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society v.58 p.271-5.

Phillips, R L et al. (1985) Role of lifestyle and dietary habits in risk of cancer amongst Seventh Day Adventists. Cancer Research v.35 (Supplement) p.3513-22.

Phillips, R L et al. (1980) Mortality among California Seventh Day Adventists for selected cancer sites. Jnl National Cancer Institute v.65 p.1097-107.

Additionally, you are correct that Brewer's yeast is not a valid source of B12, but nutritional yeast is. The two are often confused with one another, but are two separate substances.

Your familiarity with the Framingham Heart Study would mean that you know heart attacks are virtually unknown in persons with an overall cholesterol below 150, and that the average overall cholesterol of a total vegetarian is 120. As heart disease is the number one killer BY FAR of Americans, with half of us succumbing to the disease, the fact that it is virtually unknown among vegans who also have lower rates of the cancers and other diseases which are the second and third (and so on...)leading causes of disease-related deaths should be of interest.

I have no idea upon what you base your specious assertion that vegetarians and vegans merely "survive" rather than thrive on a plant based diet. According to whom? That sounds pretty ignorant to me.

You have at least agreed that when supplementation is an option B12 is not an issue. That topic aside for now then, do you deny that vegans have a lower rate of obesity, gallbladder and kidney disease, osteoporosis, heart disease, colorectal cancer, ovarian cancer, diabetes, etc? This is widely documented by pretty much every legitimate health organization in the world. Do you not think these are significant factors to both quality of life and mortality rate? I don't understand.

As for my own health, I was not allergic to dairy or eggs. True allergies to these foods produce acute and severe symptoms and are rare. And I never displayed the typical symptoms of lactose intolerance commonly seen in people either. However, I believe it is possible that I may have had a slight intolerance to dairy which caused some mucous production, etc which may have led to my seasonal allergy symptoms including earaches. I used to have about 2 bad ones a year and have now not had a single one in over 4 years. However, intolerance or "allergy" had nothing to do with my blood pressure dropping, my cholesterol going down almost 100 points or my losing weight. I simply stopped eating the foods which were making me unhealthy in those other ways through all of the excess saturated fat, the cholesterol, and the concentrated calories devoid of fiber.

I don't oppose a vegan diet based on the ethical considerations of the individual but when it is promoted as more healthful than let's say a paleo diet then I must protest.

llamamuffinmama

06-29-2005, 01:01 AM

racehorse

06-29-2005, 01:59 AM

One other thing: the B12 thing as evidence that we were designed to need meet was addressed above, but maybe you didn't see it. Before our food entered systems of production we have now, fruits and vegetables were not treated with chemical solvents, pesticides, herbicides, intensive "sanitization" processes, etc. The naturally occuring B12 from the soil they were grown in would be consumed in small amounts in the form of small amounts of residue on these crops. And early humans, having only a need for trace amounts of B12, could thus meet their nutritional needs for the vitamin through a plant diet without problem.
There actually is some evidence of such a B12 source for vegetable eaters. A group of vegetarians in India had no visible form of B12 in their diet yet did not develop deficiency diseases. When they immigrated to England they developed B12 deficiencies probably due to better sanitation. However, their food sources in India were grown using manure which would have not been the case with preagricultural people.

racehorse

06-29-2005, 02:36 AM

Your earlier reference to the Adventist study is another example of vegan obfuscation. Adventists generally are non-smokers and this would explain there lower rate of heart disease. I don't see you trying to explain why a similar study done with meat eating Mormons (also less likely to smoke) produced similar low CHD rates/deaths. In the famous Framingham study. The lead investigator of this study, William Castelli, admitted in 1992 that the healthiest and longest-lived people in Framingham ate the most saturated fat. That would of course mean meat eating. So while I can understand you feeling that you have the "goods" it is always educational to read the other guy's stuff. I do and that is why after due consideration I know which makes more sense, omnivore but not SAD and definitely not vegan.

SushiGirl

06-29-2005, 01:48 PM

xismybaby

06-29-2005, 01:58 PM

:wave: Hi, everyone!

I'm new to the boards. :)

I really enjoy eating chicken and fish, I do eat some beef but it always seems to make me feel sick afterwards. I'm very interested in becoming a vegetarian for some personal reasons. Can anyone tell me what would be the easiest way to become vegetarian without missing the chicken and fish to much? :eek:
Are there any steps that could help me with this? :confused:

Hey sushigirl, You can start off slow and eliminate either chicken first or fish. Whichever one will be easiest for you. The great thing about becoming a Vegetarian is that they have so many alternatives to meat...These alternatives also taste like meat. It sounds gross but what could be grosser than eating dead animals? Gardenburger makes good alternatives, soyboy makes a great chicken alternative, boca isnt my favorite but they make some good burgers.

You should buy a veggie starter kit..PETA offers them, Go to their website and search around because they can be very helpful :)

auntjudyg

06-29-2005, 02:15 PM

It sounds gross but what could be grosser than eating dead animals?

Do you think it is gross when a lion eats an antelope? when a frog eats a fly? when a snake eats a mouse? when whales eat plancton?

llamamuffinmama

06-29-2005, 02:15 PM

for me, becoming vegetarian was pretty easy for a few reasons i think:

1) i had personal motivations that were very important to me for choosing to become vegetarian.
2) i decided to focus on the adventure of trying all kinds of new foods, new cooking techniques, new recipes, and new styles of cuisine (including more ethnic foods, etc) and not on the few things i was giving up.

So instead of feeling limited by my decision, it opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibilities for delicious food.

I approached veganism the same way and found that easy, too.

It sounds like you are very interested, so I think if you just approach new foods with an open mind, you'll do great.

Also, a lot of people find that they have slip-ups at first. If you do, don't beat yourself up over it, just start fresh at the next meal. You'll get the hang of it as you go.

Seitan is a great meat substitute made of wheat protein. You can buy it at health food stores and some regular grocery stores depending on where you live. It sounds quite odd, but is actually delicious and very meat-like in texture. You can use that in place of chicken in dishes. For example, grill it up with some veggies for awesome fajitas, use in stir fries, seitan marsala, shred it and mix with mayo or non-dairy mayo (i love vegenaise! :eek: ), dijon mustard and some celery, pickle relish, etc. for a chicken-free chicken salad, etc.

Also, I occasionally make to'fish, by using a fish fry seasoning like mccormack's (or making my own) and battering tofu "fingers" in it and then frying them. It's decadent, but super delicious. There's also vegetarian sushi- most places have maki rolls with some combination of avocado, cucumber, carrot, shiitake mushroom, tofu, and daikon. You can also get inari at a lot of places. Miso soup often has bonito (fish) in the broth, so you have to ask. Seaweed salad is "fishy" tasting and fish-free. Great for you, too. Mashed chickpeas with celery/vegenaise/kelp powder if you have it on hand/onion/pickle relish makes an amazingly tuna-like sandwich spread.
I even had vegetarian caviar last night. Hehehe. Like I said, an open mind helps!!!

Magpiezoe

06-29-2005, 02:56 PM

You could try out being a pesco-vegetarian if you're not quite ready to go all the way. Pesco-vegetarians eat fish, fruit, veggies, eggs, dairy, and grains. A lot of Chinese monks are often called vegetarians, but they are really pesco-vegetarians. I've seen them catching fish to eat on TV. My mother-in-law is Chinese and she claims they consider seafood/fish as a vegetable.

SushiGirl

06-29-2005, 03:20 PM

Hey sushigirl, You can start off slow and eliminate either chicken first or fish. Whichever one will be easiest for you. The great thing about becoming a Vegetarian is that they have so many alternatives to meat...These alternatives also taste like meat. It sounds gross but what could be grosser than eating dead animals? Gardenburger makes good alternatives, soyboy makes a great chicken alternative, boca isnt my favorite but they make some good burgers.

You should buy a veggie starter kit..PETA offers them, Go to their website and search around because they can be very helpful :)

It will probably be easier for me to elimate the chicken first. I love my fish/seafood. I've been looking around at grocery stores and noticed that vegetarian food is so much more expensive. :eek: This is a problem for me. So it will be hard to get the meat substitutes at least for a while.

I have already been on that site and order the starters kit. :)

racehorse

06-29-2005, 03:51 PM

racehorse

06-29-2005, 03:57 PM

One of the big downsides of going vegan is that the subsitutes for meat are not great and I'm not critquing their taste. Soy products are clearly dangerous (search Soy Danger), and other fake meats made with seitan are made with wheat protein (gluten) which nearly 50% of Americans have a reaction too (most are sub-clinical). Protein from legumes in general is problematic with phytates, haemagglutin, protease inhibitors and a less than great amino acid content. Fresh raw Nuts provide some protein and healthful fats but to find non-toxic protein capable of affording optimal health you need to carefully. choose animal proteins. BTW I noticed you ordered the PETA kit ... are you ready to trust a group that just got indicted for killing animals? The Carolina group has a record that shows they kill about 85% of the animals they take in ... guess the $20 million annual budget doesn't have room for pet food.

xismybaby

06-29-2005, 06:33 PM

One of the big downsides of going vegan is that the subsitutes for meat are not great and I'm not critquing their taste. Soy products are clearly dangerous (search Soy Danger), and other fake meats made with seitan are made with wheat protein (gluten) which nearly 50% of Americans have a reaction too (most are sub-clinical). Protein from legumes in general is problematic with phytates, haemagglutin, protease inhibitors and a less than great amino acid content. Fresh raw Nuts provide some protein and healthful fats but to find non-toxic protein capable of affording optimal health you need to carefully choose animal proteins.

She clearly asked what would make it easier to give up meat. For now she could try meat substitutes (its not for life).

Ferminated soy is great for you and should be consumed (miso, tempeh, natto)...

Racehorse, you say "soy products are clearly dangerous", well there are many studies that state "meat and dairy consumption are clearly dangerous"...so you dont believe that but you believe soy is? I'm sorry but you are obviously favoring your diet over any other and you are shutting out everyone elses. :nono:

racehorse

06-29-2005, 09:06 PM

She clearly asked what would make it easier to give up meat. For now she could try meat substitutes (its not for life).

Ferminated soy is great for you and should be consumed (miso, tempeh, natto)...

Racehorse, you say "soy products are clearly dangerous", well there are many studies that state "meat and dairy consumption are clearly dangerous"...so you dont believe that but you believe soy is? I'm sorry but you are obviously favoring your diet over any other and you are shutting out everyone elses. :nono:

I don't know of any studies that suggest (in supermarket meats) there are 1000's of times acceptable levels of aluminum and other other heavy metals that are found in industrial products make with soy nor the solvents. I don't see protease inhibitors, haemagglutins, or high levels of phytates either. These are the facts about soy and the reason why it is so dangerous for regular consumption. If you want to damage your thyroid or pancreas the fake meat people have got just what you need. I have often wondered why vegans that often stress "natural" in their life and food so often eat industrial waste because it can be made to look like real meat. That is a dicotomy that I just cannot find an answer too. BTW while I don't eat it, I don't think the occasional consumption of tradtional fermented soy foods are excessively dangerous but such products are not readily available in the US. So, when people begin to consider, for whatever reason, a change to a vegetarian or vegan diet I only think it is right to put the facts before them.

SushiGirl

06-29-2005, 09:25 PM

xismybaby

06-29-2005, 10:16 PM

I don't know of any studies that suggest (in supermarket meats) there are 1000's of times acceptable levels of aluminum and other other heavy metals that are found in industrial products make with soy nor the solvents. I don't see protease inhibitors, haemagglutins, or high levels of phytates either. These are the facts about soy and the reason why it is so dangerous for regular consumption. If you want to damage your thyroid or pancreas the fake meat people have got just what you need. I have often wondered why vegans that often stress "natural" in their life and food so often eat industrial waste because it can be made to look like real meat. That is a dicotomy that I just cannot find an answer too. BTW while I don't eat it, I don't think the occasional consumption of tradtional fermented soy foods are excessively dangerous but such products are not readily available in the US. So, when people begin to consider, for whatever reason, a change to a vegetarian or vegan diet I only think it is right to put the facts before them.

Here's other dangers of meat:

In addition to the problems associated with too much fat, cholesterol, and protein, consumers of animal products take in far greater amounts of residual agricultural chemicals, industrial pollutants, antibiotics, and hormones than do vegetarians. The absorption of antibiotics through meat-eating results in antibiotic-resistent strains of pneumonia, childhood meningitis, gonorrhea, salmonella, and other serious illnesses.

Meat contains 14 times as many pesticide residues as plant foods. Fish is another source of dangerous residues. The EPA estimates that fishes can accumulate up to nine million times the level of cancer-causing polychlorinated biphenals (PCBs) found in the waters in which they live.

(Information taken from John Robbins, Diet for a New America (Walpole, N.H.: Stillpoint Publishing, 1987)

If you want to damage your colon, increase your risk of type 2 diabetes, clog your ateries, higher your cholesterol, increase your risk of all forms of cancer, put hormones into your body, get very ill from E. cloi, eat decomposed flesh, and have an increased risk of becoming obese.....Then the meat industry has just what you need :)

racehorse

06-29-2005, 10:40 PM

Here's other dangers of meat:

In addition to the problems associated with too much fat, cholesterol, and protein, consumers of animal products take in far greater amounts of residual agricultural chemicals, industrial pollutants, antibiotics, and hormones than do vegetarians. The absorption of antibiotics through meat-eating results in antibiotic-resistent strains of pneumonia, childhood meningitis, gonorrhea, salmonella, and other serious illnesses.

Residual pesticides and chemicals are problematic for everyone. Vegans consume more vegetables than omnivores and probably as much or more of the nasties you cite.

Meat contains 14 times as many pesticide residues as plant foods. Fish is another source of dangerous residues. The EPA estimates that fishes can accumulate up to nine million times the level of cancer-causing polychlorinated biphenals (PCBs) found in the waters in which they live.

I have never espoused eating fish because of the pollution which includes heavy metals as well as other contaminents. I don't know where you got you 14 times number but that is something that eating organic eliminates.

(Information taken from John Robbins, Diet for a New America (Walpole, N.H.: Stillpoint Publishing, 1987)
One only has to read the endoser list to know that this is standard veg myth and propaganda
If you want to damage your colon, increase your risk of type 2 diabetes, clog your ateries, higher your cholesterol, increase your risk of all forms of cancer, put hormones into your body, get very ill from E. cloi, eat decomposed flesh, and have an increased risk of becoming obese.....Then the meat industry has just what you need :)

The fact that because veg folks tend to eat so much industrial soy that the statistical evidence of mental retardation, genital malformation, thyroid problems and behaviour problems is becoming clear might be a caution for those that are inclined to eat such a diet.

racehorse

06-29-2005, 10:42 PM

BTW I would be interested in your defense of industrial soy products. You don't seem to respond to those portions of my posts.

xismybaby

06-29-2005, 10:53 PM

BTW I would be interested in your defense of industrial soy products. You don't seem to respond to those portions of my posts.

Well maybe i'm not debating about industrial soy because I agree with you on some of the aspects. I never said soy was a miracle food, but I also never said it was an all dangerous food either. I do think fermented soy is good for you.

Its funny because you never seem to comment on the portions of my posts that have to do with clogged arteries, cancer, type 2 diabetes, cholesterol...etc. You just go into whats wrong about soy, legumes and gluten.

So do you just think eating organic is how to avoid those things? I'd like to know how you feel about not eating organic meats?

:)

racehorse

06-30-2005, 12:54 AM

xismybaby

06-30-2005, 10:59 AM

I do not buy into the cholesterol is the cause of CHD. CHD rates increased rapidly in the 20th century but total saturated fat in the diet did not. I am convinced the root cause of the diseases of modernity that you mention, lie in the huge increases in refined grain products, sugars (especially high fructose corn sweetener) and industrial vegetable oils. The advent of transfatty acids in processed foods along with industrial soy products have also made an impact along with the now industrial production of dairy. Eating conventional meats is much like eating conventional vegetables, not without its hazzards but generally not of major concern. The fact that most people cannot obtain or afford organic foods is important and when we discuss the toxcicity of the food supply our number 1 concern should be those foods that are created in a factory by agribusinesses and their food scientists. I fundamentally disagree with an all vegetable diet but I hope we could agree on this last point.

I do agree with you on people not being able to afford organic foods and that we should be concerned with foods created in factories by agribusiness.

I do not trust the people who work in Slaughter houses (anyone who could do that to living beings could harm people). Just like Mad Cow disease, what are they feeding these cows?

Also, anything with a brain might get infected with this disease, so you cant be too careful. And the USDA isnt doing much to help..They only tested 20,000 cows last year :nono:

But we dont need to get into this...you think meat is healthy and I dont so lets agree to disagree :)

racehorse

06-30-2005, 01:15 PM

But we dont need to get into this...you think meat is healthy and I dont so lets agree to disagree

Agreed!

xismybaby

06-30-2005, 05:41 PM

But we dont need to get into this...you think meat is healthy and I dont so lets agree to disagree

Agreed!

Good! :D

It was great conversing with you :wave:

stickydate

01-24-2006, 01:22 AM

stickydate

01-24-2006, 01:25 AM

auntjudyg

01-25-2006, 10:54 AM

IMO, no matter how well the animal has been treated in it's life, it has still died to be on my plate unecessarily. I can survive quite well on grains, plant oils, beans, veg, fruit, nuts and vegan chocolate :p
And my view is that the death was not unnecessary. Death is part of the circle of life.

cad2

01-26-2006, 08:59 PM

I just wanted to share with you my experiences. I use to consume alot of meat, chicken and fish I had some sort of animal flesh at every meal 5 times a day and for me it ruined my digestive track, now I eat an extremely healthy almost vegetarian I do have fish now and again so I won't call my self vegetarian just yet. I Feel wonderful lots of energy am thin and trim and just look healthy overall. I think it is a much better way of life.