angelblue65
06-08-2005, 11:18 AM
Before I ask my questions, I wanted to quickly update anyone who caught my quick post last week - my BF's son fortunately did not lose his eye sight (he got hit in the eye with a paintball while visiting his mom's). Although he's not completely out of the water, the worst is over.
Also real quick - my BF and I have had the most amazing conversations over the last month since our big blowout. Not that I would wish it again but I am almost glad it happened (as we almost broke up) because it really opened BOTH our eyes and things have dramatically changed on both our parts. I'm so hopeful with everything and our relationship and he's really really trying, as am I. He's so much more open about his BP and we discuss it in such a productive way. I'm very positive about things right now.
But there's always a "but"........
I may have mentioned, I can't remember, that there have been some problems with his two sons (whom he has custody of). They are 15 and 13 and the younger one is giving my BF a run for his money. I think, and this is only my opinion, that my BF is more lenient with them and not consistent in the discipline area because he is so afraid of repeating what his father did to him (certainly understandable) but he realizes this and is working on it.
My questions are - if anyone here has raised or is raising children, how does their behavior (assuming there is at least one other parent here that is going through something similar) affect you when you are trying so hard to keep an even keel just dealing with this illness? For example, my BF can be in the most loving mood, or just happy in general joking around, etc.. and all it takes is one horrific argument be it between the two boys or him and one of his sons and he's "done" for the rest of the day and there's no getting him out of the sadness he feels.
I'm wondering how much of the guilt he feels (not warranted in my opinion) is due to his illness when they attack him and his motives? Does having BP cause people to be more prone to feeling guilty, unworthy, or just feel like you're not doing a good job. The kids don't show him any respect and they expect the world. Being grounded does nothing for the learning process of not repeating past mistakes. Being that I don't have children of my own, this is all new to me yet I'm not ignorant to the role of common sense and being a good role model. I just don't get where he's going wrong in their eyes.
My other question is - how much does having BP affect your children? Both my therapist as well as my BF's have said that children react and respond when seeing that one of their parents is "not well." I get that. But then, when we try to do something for them i.e. get them involved with a sport or other program, take them somewhere on the weekend, etc., they refuse - but then they turn around and say we don't do anything for them and play the victim and "life is tough" - it makes me want to pull my hair out.
My BF is getting to the point where he doesn't want to do it any more (be the Dad who doesn't get any respect, love, thanks, etc..) and I can't blame it. Yet I know he'd regret it if he sent them to live with their Mom because he knows in his heart she is unstable and not responsible.
I know this is not my role or responsibility yet I would like some advice on how to be there for him. My BF has always allowed me to be involved be it asking me for advice on what he should do, consults me on decisions regarding their school, punishment, activities, etc.. and I'm thankful for that. I know a lot of relationships, the GF or BF is left to feel like an outsider and it's never been like that for me. It's just so hard to see him taking it and taking it without any relief in sight.
Oh, this was all brought on because we have to move (not to another town mind you) but only one street over because the landlord raised our rent $200/month which we cannot afford. I had a softball game last night and he chose to talk to them about getting their room packed and helping me (because my BF, with his knee injury, can't move stuff - and I won't let him anyways). You would think we were moving them to another country. They said some pretty lousy things to him and he was in tears by the time I got home.
I know teenagers can be awful (I remember.....) but this goes beyond the normal teenage angst and it's really affecting him which of course worries me.
Also real quick - my BF and I have had the most amazing conversations over the last month since our big blowout. Not that I would wish it again but I am almost glad it happened (as we almost broke up) because it really opened BOTH our eyes and things have dramatically changed on both our parts. I'm so hopeful with everything and our relationship and he's really really trying, as am I. He's so much more open about his BP and we discuss it in such a productive way. I'm very positive about things right now.
But there's always a "but"........
I may have mentioned, I can't remember, that there have been some problems with his two sons (whom he has custody of). They are 15 and 13 and the younger one is giving my BF a run for his money. I think, and this is only my opinion, that my BF is more lenient with them and not consistent in the discipline area because he is so afraid of repeating what his father did to him (certainly understandable) but he realizes this and is working on it.
My questions are - if anyone here has raised or is raising children, how does their behavior (assuming there is at least one other parent here that is going through something similar) affect you when you are trying so hard to keep an even keel just dealing with this illness? For example, my BF can be in the most loving mood, or just happy in general joking around, etc.. and all it takes is one horrific argument be it between the two boys or him and one of his sons and he's "done" for the rest of the day and there's no getting him out of the sadness he feels.
I'm wondering how much of the guilt he feels (not warranted in my opinion) is due to his illness when they attack him and his motives? Does having BP cause people to be more prone to feeling guilty, unworthy, or just feel like you're not doing a good job. The kids don't show him any respect and they expect the world. Being grounded does nothing for the learning process of not repeating past mistakes. Being that I don't have children of my own, this is all new to me yet I'm not ignorant to the role of common sense and being a good role model. I just don't get where he's going wrong in their eyes.
My other question is - how much does having BP affect your children? Both my therapist as well as my BF's have said that children react and respond when seeing that one of their parents is "not well." I get that. But then, when we try to do something for them i.e. get them involved with a sport or other program, take them somewhere on the weekend, etc., they refuse - but then they turn around and say we don't do anything for them and play the victim and "life is tough" - it makes me want to pull my hair out.
My BF is getting to the point where he doesn't want to do it any more (be the Dad who doesn't get any respect, love, thanks, etc..) and I can't blame it. Yet I know he'd regret it if he sent them to live with their Mom because he knows in his heart she is unstable and not responsible.
I know this is not my role or responsibility yet I would like some advice on how to be there for him. My BF has always allowed me to be involved be it asking me for advice on what he should do, consults me on decisions regarding their school, punishment, activities, etc.. and I'm thankful for that. I know a lot of relationships, the GF or BF is left to feel like an outsider and it's never been like that for me. It's just so hard to see him taking it and taking it without any relief in sight.
Oh, this was all brought on because we have to move (not to another town mind you) but only one street over because the landlord raised our rent $200/month which we cannot afford. I had a softball game last night and he chose to talk to them about getting their room packed and helping me (because my BF, with his knee injury, can't move stuff - and I won't let him anyways). You would think we were moving them to another country. They said some pretty lousy things to him and he was in tears by the time I got home.
I know teenagers can be awful (I remember.....) but this goes beyond the normal teenage angst and it's really affecting him which of course worries me.
Sponsor
polarized13
06-08-2005, 01:26 PM
Hi Angel,
I'm glad your bf son didn't lose his eyesight, I know that must have been scary for all of you. I know a little about raising boys, my son will be 13 in January, and although he's a really good kid for the most part, he has that way about him that boys do at that age of being really good at pushing buttons. I have to constantly remind myself that he's just bieng a pre-teen boy. It takes a lot of energy and willpower sometimes to deal with it, and it does add to my stress. We have always shared custody, and spent equal time with our son, but for the past six months he has lived primarily with his Dad since we moved. The topic of your thread is the exact point his attorney is going to use in order to fight me for custody of him. Basically saying that because I'm bipolar, I can't handle the stress and difficulty involved in raising him. It does affect my condition, there is no doubt. I don't have all the answers, I wish I did. All I know is that I love my child, and I'm flying to California to go to court and do my best to convince the Judge that even with my condition, I can be a good mother, and appropriately handle raising a teen-age boy. (Today is my daughter's sixth birthday, and she is just a sweetheart, no problems at all with her,we'll talk in a few years, and see if that has changed)
The only thing more complicated and challenging than being a parent ( or trying to become one again..) is having a mental condition that makes you and everyone around you question your ability to cope with life and all the difficulties that come along with it.
You seem to think that your bf's sons have problems that go beyond normal teenage behavior, and if the current studies are right, and this illness is hereditary, then it's very possible that they're showing early signs of having bipolar themselves. Has he had them evaluated to see if a profesional can help?
~~heather~~
I'm glad your bf son didn't lose his eyesight, I know that must have been scary for all of you. I know a little about raising boys, my son will be 13 in January, and although he's a really good kid for the most part, he has that way about him that boys do at that age of being really good at pushing buttons. I have to constantly remind myself that he's just bieng a pre-teen boy. It takes a lot of energy and willpower sometimes to deal with it, and it does add to my stress. We have always shared custody, and spent equal time with our son, but for the past six months he has lived primarily with his Dad since we moved. The topic of your thread is the exact point his attorney is going to use in order to fight me for custody of him. Basically saying that because I'm bipolar, I can't handle the stress and difficulty involved in raising him. It does affect my condition, there is no doubt. I don't have all the answers, I wish I did. All I know is that I love my child, and I'm flying to California to go to court and do my best to convince the Judge that even with my condition, I can be a good mother, and appropriately handle raising a teen-age boy. (Today is my daughter's sixth birthday, and she is just a sweetheart, no problems at all with her,we'll talk in a few years, and see if that has changed)
The only thing more complicated and challenging than being a parent ( or trying to become one again..) is having a mental condition that makes you and everyone around you question your ability to cope with life and all the difficulties that come along with it.
You seem to think that your bf's sons have problems that go beyond normal teenage behavior, and if the current studies are right, and this illness is hereditary, then it's very possible that they're showing early signs of having bipolar themselves. Has he had them evaluated to see if a profesional can help?
~~heather~~
Hedgehog No 1
06-08-2005, 01:54 PM
AB 65 :wave:
I can offer a chunk of advice on this one - unfortunately I don't have the time right now - check in tomorrow for some detailed help and advice - best I can do for now. :bouncing:
Hedge. :cool:
I can offer a chunk of advice on this one - unfortunately I don't have the time right now - check in tomorrow for some detailed help and advice - best I can do for now. :bouncing:
Hedge. :cool:
angelblue65
06-08-2005, 03:08 PM
Hedge - any help at ANY TIME is help to me the way I see it! I appreciate you checking in and I'll look forward to the advice for sure. And by the way, as I meant to post earlier - congrats on the up and coming Big Day!!
Heather - as always, you are here to offer advice and as always, plenty of good stuff to read! You know, it is very possible that either boy if not both are displaying early signs of BP; then again, I've been reading up on how depression affects children and the younger one is displaying behaviors consistent with "reaching out for attention." Because my BF is SOOOOO sensitive when it comes to how he and his illness affects his sons' lives, I just cannot be the one to suggest that either of them may have BP. There has been a long drawn out red-tape-of-a-system in finding a physician as well as a pdoc for them. The physician they started seeing (who we wanted to send the younger one back to to make sure everything physically is ok) sent us a letter saying he's retiring. Nice of him to let us know when he took them on as new patients, huh? Now we are on the hunt to find another one who will take the state's health insurance we have for them. And finding a pdoc has been even more difficult. The school counselor gave us a couple of leads but we can't even get call backs. They will be leaving to go to their mom's and grandmother's for the summer and they do not have day to day insurance coverage when out of state. They love visiting with their grandmother so it might do some good for all to have the break. Coming back home the end of the summer and getting established with all new doctors at that time looks like what's going to happen. Of course my co-dependency tendencies tempt me to step in and take care of everything. My BF is so distraught and in the "I give up" mode that I know he's not seeing a clear plan of attack right now. So I know what needs to be done but when I asked my therapist about doing anything, she said I can't and that I have to stop enabling (hmmm, Heather, where have I heard that before, huh? ;) ). I feel like my head is about to explode with everything I've learned just in the last few months.
I certainly don't want to coddle the boys and make it into a good guy/bad guy parental relationship. I know enough that it's not good to be their pal while Dad does all the disciplining. I do walk the fine line of not overstepping boundaries and my BF tells me all the time how happy he is about our "family" and the way I handle things. It's just so frustrating to watch a situation continually get worse. I'm hoping the summer will be just the break everyone needs before starting fresh.
Heather, I both commend and admire you for your strength, courage, determination, and love for your son. Taking on the system, especially a prejudiced one at that will be a task but I would hope that shows something to the courts that you are willing to do so for your son. It's ironic in that my BF has the BP yet he is so much more stable and responsible and loving to his kids than their mom has ever been. And what's her excuse? I feel bad that mental health issues hold such a negative connotation in the system.
I'm sorry if I missed something on the boards here - the last I read, you had spoken to your ex and it sounded like he was backing off a bit - did he change his tune again? All I can say is I wish you the very best of luck with that!
Heather - as always, you are here to offer advice and as always, plenty of good stuff to read! You know, it is very possible that either boy if not both are displaying early signs of BP; then again, I've been reading up on how depression affects children and the younger one is displaying behaviors consistent with "reaching out for attention." Because my BF is SOOOOO sensitive when it comes to how he and his illness affects his sons' lives, I just cannot be the one to suggest that either of them may have BP. There has been a long drawn out red-tape-of-a-system in finding a physician as well as a pdoc for them. The physician they started seeing (who we wanted to send the younger one back to to make sure everything physically is ok) sent us a letter saying he's retiring. Nice of him to let us know when he took them on as new patients, huh? Now we are on the hunt to find another one who will take the state's health insurance we have for them. And finding a pdoc has been even more difficult. The school counselor gave us a couple of leads but we can't even get call backs. They will be leaving to go to their mom's and grandmother's for the summer and they do not have day to day insurance coverage when out of state. They love visiting with their grandmother so it might do some good for all to have the break. Coming back home the end of the summer and getting established with all new doctors at that time looks like what's going to happen. Of course my co-dependency tendencies tempt me to step in and take care of everything. My BF is so distraught and in the "I give up" mode that I know he's not seeing a clear plan of attack right now. So I know what needs to be done but when I asked my therapist about doing anything, she said I can't and that I have to stop enabling (hmmm, Heather, where have I heard that before, huh? ;) ). I feel like my head is about to explode with everything I've learned just in the last few months.
I certainly don't want to coddle the boys and make it into a good guy/bad guy parental relationship. I know enough that it's not good to be their pal while Dad does all the disciplining. I do walk the fine line of not overstepping boundaries and my BF tells me all the time how happy he is about our "family" and the way I handle things. It's just so frustrating to watch a situation continually get worse. I'm hoping the summer will be just the break everyone needs before starting fresh.
Heather, I both commend and admire you for your strength, courage, determination, and love for your son. Taking on the system, especially a prejudiced one at that will be a task but I would hope that shows something to the courts that you are willing to do so for your son. It's ironic in that my BF has the BP yet he is so much more stable and responsible and loving to his kids than their mom has ever been. And what's her excuse? I feel bad that mental health issues hold such a negative connotation in the system.
I'm sorry if I missed something on the boards here - the last I read, you had spoken to your ex and it sounded like he was backing off a bit - did he change his tune again? All I can say is I wish you the very best of luck with that!
polarized13
06-08-2005, 07:39 PM
Angel,
No, you haven't missed anything, my ex changes his mind so often, I don't have time to post every time it happens.....
It's funny you know, I'm the one with the mood disorder, but HE'S the one who keeps playing games and going back and forth, one minute he is being cool, and wanting to work things out for my son to come out here, and the next minute he has changed his mind, and won't even speak to me about it. I do understand that he's benevolent about the whole situation, and he will miss his son being so far away and all that. He also knows that our son is old enough now to be able to choose, and he will resent his father for not letting him have a say. He says that he sees now that staying where he is now is what's best for him, (not to mention it will save his Dad a bundle in child support, and air fare) I keep trying to be understanding, but that ends when you have to take out a loan to hire a high-powered attorney, and you worry about the effect the stress will have on your own family, and wonder how much the stress has effected your own health (and if it could have triggered the miscarriage....)
I may very well lose the fight, I realize that, but I have to do what I have to do. My son wants to be with me, and I feel guilty already for moving so far away, like I abandoned him, I have to at least do everything I can to get him back here. I would like to think that just moving back home is a real option, but it really isn't at this point in our lives. I just hope the court has some respect for people who move away if they have to find employment instead of staying where they are, and collecting from the state. I know some people look down on me for moving away and leaving my son with his Dad, but I was assured that we would continue to keep sharing custody. I have done some things to help my case, like taping my conversations with my ex, and I can only hope that things work out for us.
We'll see how much the whole bipolar thing comes into play, my attorney thinks he can put a positive spin on it since I have been doing so well since my diagnosis and treatment, and I have kept careful records of everything ~ just in case...the day will come when he will definately be old enough to decide where he wants to be, without the court being involved at all, and I know in the long run I will have a good, close relationship with my son.
Anyhow, it sounds like have thought through the possibilities that the boys may need some professional help, and that you're doing all you can to be supportive without crossing that line. I wish you luck, and I hope you guys have a good summer!!
~~heather~~
No, you haven't missed anything, my ex changes his mind so often, I don't have time to post every time it happens.....
It's funny you know, I'm the one with the mood disorder, but HE'S the one who keeps playing games and going back and forth, one minute he is being cool, and wanting to work things out for my son to come out here, and the next minute he has changed his mind, and won't even speak to me about it. I do understand that he's benevolent about the whole situation, and he will miss his son being so far away and all that. He also knows that our son is old enough now to be able to choose, and he will resent his father for not letting him have a say. He says that he sees now that staying where he is now is what's best for him, (not to mention it will save his Dad a bundle in child support, and air fare) I keep trying to be understanding, but that ends when you have to take out a loan to hire a high-powered attorney, and you worry about the effect the stress will have on your own family, and wonder how much the stress has effected your own health (and if it could have triggered the miscarriage....)
I may very well lose the fight, I realize that, but I have to do what I have to do. My son wants to be with me, and I feel guilty already for moving so far away, like I abandoned him, I have to at least do everything I can to get him back here. I would like to think that just moving back home is a real option, but it really isn't at this point in our lives. I just hope the court has some respect for people who move away if they have to find employment instead of staying where they are, and collecting from the state. I know some people look down on me for moving away and leaving my son with his Dad, but I was assured that we would continue to keep sharing custody. I have done some things to help my case, like taping my conversations with my ex, and I can only hope that things work out for us.
We'll see how much the whole bipolar thing comes into play, my attorney thinks he can put a positive spin on it since I have been doing so well since my diagnosis and treatment, and I have kept careful records of everything ~ just in case...the day will come when he will definately be old enough to decide where he wants to be, without the court being involved at all, and I know in the long run I will have a good, close relationship with my son.
Anyhow, it sounds like have thought through the possibilities that the boys may need some professional help, and that you're doing all you can to be supportive without crossing that line. I wish you luck, and I hope you guys have a good summer!!
~~heather~~
Zbaby
06-09-2005, 03:40 AM
Angel - I'm a new parent, and the depressive side of bipolar ruled my life while pregnant and during the 15 months of my son's life. My condition has always been a sticking point for me - I do my best to shield him from my own inner turmoil. Yes, the guilt and feelings of unworthiness multiply, especially during the depressive episode. However, I've been stable for the last 3 months and am fully aware of my capabilities and strength as a mother.
At my worst moments, I was fortunate that my son was too young to understand what was happening. Mood shifts will be harder to hide as I get older, so all I can do is stick with a med/therapy regimen that works to minimize the frequency of episodes.
It's entirely possible that your BF's sons may have been affected by his past episodes, especially if he went undiagnosed for a while they were growing up. However, kids are smart and they may very well be pushing his buttons to their own advantage. The full impact of their actions and how they affect their father is probably lost on them.
It sounds like there are any number of reasons that could explain their negative behavior, and it may not have anything to do with your BF's condition or that "boys will be boys." Factors to consider are:
1) Coming from a broken family with parents that probably did not split on good terms.
2) Having an unstable mother.
3) Having low self-esteem and possibly not fitting in among his peers at school. They may be resisting organized sports out of fear of being rejected or inferior.
In any event, it may be a good idea for them to talk to a p-doc IF YOU CAN FIND A GOOD ONE. One thing I've read from recent articles is that mental illness usually manifests itself by age 14 and that the teenage and young adult years are crucial in determining whether it's just a "passing phase" or whether it worsens into depression, anxiety disorder, etc. Also, although symptoms may occur at 14, most people on average are not properly diagnosed for another ten or more years. So, if there is a problem, it's better to catch it early before it increases in intensity.
Have you had any luck approaching the subject with the BF? You could phrase it in terms that have nothing to do with his BP condition - your concern for their welfare and the anguish it causes him as a parent. Perhaps family counseling is an option, too.
It's difficult for me to give you definitive answers as this parenting thing is all new to me. My theory is that a parent's BP can definitely affect the children, but the parent should not carry the full blame or burden for everything that is wrong with their lives. Your BF is not being fair to himself, and it's important that he know that.
Heather - wish I could keep going to cheer you on and tell you how much I admire your strength, determination and love. However, slumber awaits -- catch up with you later.
Zbaby
At my worst moments, I was fortunate that my son was too young to understand what was happening. Mood shifts will be harder to hide as I get older, so all I can do is stick with a med/therapy regimen that works to minimize the frequency of episodes.
It's entirely possible that your BF's sons may have been affected by his past episodes, especially if he went undiagnosed for a while they were growing up. However, kids are smart and they may very well be pushing his buttons to their own advantage. The full impact of their actions and how they affect their father is probably lost on them.
It sounds like there are any number of reasons that could explain their negative behavior, and it may not have anything to do with your BF's condition or that "boys will be boys." Factors to consider are:
1) Coming from a broken family with parents that probably did not split on good terms.
2) Having an unstable mother.
3) Having low self-esteem and possibly not fitting in among his peers at school. They may be resisting organized sports out of fear of being rejected or inferior.
In any event, it may be a good idea for them to talk to a p-doc IF YOU CAN FIND A GOOD ONE. One thing I've read from recent articles is that mental illness usually manifests itself by age 14 and that the teenage and young adult years are crucial in determining whether it's just a "passing phase" or whether it worsens into depression, anxiety disorder, etc. Also, although symptoms may occur at 14, most people on average are not properly diagnosed for another ten or more years. So, if there is a problem, it's better to catch it early before it increases in intensity.
Have you had any luck approaching the subject with the BF? You could phrase it in terms that have nothing to do with his BP condition - your concern for their welfare and the anguish it causes him as a parent. Perhaps family counseling is an option, too.
It's difficult for me to give you definitive answers as this parenting thing is all new to me. My theory is that a parent's BP can definitely affect the children, but the parent should not carry the full blame or burden for everything that is wrong with their lives. Your BF is not being fair to himself, and it's important that he know that.
Heather - wish I could keep going to cheer you on and tell you how much I admire your strength, determination and love. However, slumber awaits -- catch up with you later.
Zbaby
thebinkle
06-09-2005, 12:00 PM
I've spent HOURS searching the web for good articles and resources for parents who are bipolar, and all that comes up are articles of parents OF biplar children! It's like it's a TABOO subject or something!
Heather, your BF sounds a lot like me! When he's feeling OK and engaged, he's a GREAT DAD. Believe me, that's mostly what his kids will remember about them. My daughter and I are VERY close, and my husband and I decided from a very early age we would explain that "Mommy had an illness that affected her behavior and that it was NEVER HER fault and NEVER meant that I didn't love her." Perhaps you need to stress this with the boys. That your BF's love for them is ALWAYS THERE, no matter how he is doing. If he is like me, he has NEVER been violent toward them and is ALWAYS GUILTY about the times he has been unavailable to them.
You both are lucky in that the kids have another, stable parent to go to when the other is "out of it." When I'm "out of it," I can be laid up in bed for up to two days, swallowed up by depression so deep I don't know what day it is. My daughter hates it, but she's learn to hate the disease, not ME. We talk a lot about her feelings, and I tell her it's OK to be angry at me during those times, and YES, it's unfair to her. But then, other parents often have OTHER diseases, like diabetes or cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, chronic pain, that limit their time with their children and spouses.
The worst-case scenario, of course, is a single parent with a mental illness. If there is no other parent involved, the courts have to decide if the parent can keep the children full-time. Of course, if the parent has never been diagnosed, the kids may or may not be in danger, but they will certainly be affected by their parent's behavior. Sorry I'm rambling!
Heather, your BF sounds a lot like me! When he's feeling OK and engaged, he's a GREAT DAD. Believe me, that's mostly what his kids will remember about them. My daughter and I are VERY close, and my husband and I decided from a very early age we would explain that "Mommy had an illness that affected her behavior and that it was NEVER HER fault and NEVER meant that I didn't love her." Perhaps you need to stress this with the boys. That your BF's love for them is ALWAYS THERE, no matter how he is doing. If he is like me, he has NEVER been violent toward them and is ALWAYS GUILTY about the times he has been unavailable to them.
You both are lucky in that the kids have another, stable parent to go to when the other is "out of it." When I'm "out of it," I can be laid up in bed for up to two days, swallowed up by depression so deep I don't know what day it is. My daughter hates it, but she's learn to hate the disease, not ME. We talk a lot about her feelings, and I tell her it's OK to be angry at me during those times, and YES, it's unfair to her. But then, other parents often have OTHER diseases, like diabetes or cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, chronic pain, that limit their time with their children and spouses.
The worst-case scenario, of course, is a single parent with a mental illness. If there is no other parent involved, the courts have to decide if the parent can keep the children full-time. Of course, if the parent has never been diagnosed, the kids may or may not be in danger, but they will certainly be affected by their parent's behavior. Sorry I'm rambling!
angelblue65
06-09-2005, 12:25 PM
Hello there - Well, this is definitely the place to come for any and all information on this illness. And do not be shy in asking questions of your own if you don't see what you are seeking.
I wanted to clear a couple of things up for you though. Heather is Polarized and I am Angelblue (the one who is in a relationship with my BF who is BP).
The other thing is, you said we are lucky that there is another parent who is stable the children can go to. I don't know if you were referring to me or to their Mom but in case it was their mother, she IS NOT stable. She is extremely irresponsible, does not contribute a dime for her own children, uses past history to turn the kids against their Dad (things no child should know), and even took off for a year, dumping them in my BF's lap. They have never gone to court mostly because she has never wanted them - only to be the weekend "parent." But it is definitely difficult for them going back and forth. They love their mom as most kids would and seem to have forgiven her for taking off yet for whatever frustrating reason, they can't give their Dad a break and he's the one who's always been there. It sucks to say the least.
I think you and your husband have done a great service in educating your daughter and allowing her to be part of what you are experiencing; otherwise, she would be left wondering if it's her that is to blame. So good for you!
And ZBaby - thank you for all the good advice. Everything you said is so true. My BF told me that the boys know their Father is sick but he has never had THE talk with them. However, their Grandmother tells them ALOT - more so than he would like and it is very possible they do actually know everything. My BF told me the other day that his Mom (the boys' Grandmother) told him his younger son confided to her that it scares him to see his Dad depressed because he doesn't want to end up like him. Not the kind of info I would have wanted my BF to be privy to - he feels bad enough as it is how this illness affects them. It has taken over a year for him to be comfortable enough to be open on a consistent basis to talk about the illness with me (it used to anger him alot to talk about it) so I"m hoping that at some point, we'll go down that road as well - talking to the boys.
I do sit the younger one down every now and then and remind him how much his Dad loves him, and that I do too. I explained to him what unconditional love means and he gets it now (well, sometimes) but he's just so angry himself so much of the time that I don't think that knowledge is in the forefront of his mind.
I think I now have the background and experience to say that parenting is in fact the hardest and most thankless job in the world. I just don't know how to get it through to my BF that alot of his kids' behaviors - not showing appreciation, the sibling arguing, etc.. is typical and not personal towards him. The poor guy just takes everything to heart and it's much much worse when he is in a depressive state. Is this something that will always be a problem due to his illness?
I wanted to clear a couple of things up for you though. Heather is Polarized and I am Angelblue (the one who is in a relationship with my BF who is BP).
The other thing is, you said we are lucky that there is another parent who is stable the children can go to. I don't know if you were referring to me or to their Mom but in case it was their mother, she IS NOT stable. She is extremely irresponsible, does not contribute a dime for her own children, uses past history to turn the kids against their Dad (things no child should know), and even took off for a year, dumping them in my BF's lap. They have never gone to court mostly because she has never wanted them - only to be the weekend "parent." But it is definitely difficult for them going back and forth. They love their mom as most kids would and seem to have forgiven her for taking off yet for whatever frustrating reason, they can't give their Dad a break and he's the one who's always been there. It sucks to say the least.
I think you and your husband have done a great service in educating your daughter and allowing her to be part of what you are experiencing; otherwise, she would be left wondering if it's her that is to blame. So good for you!
And ZBaby - thank you for all the good advice. Everything you said is so true. My BF told me that the boys know their Father is sick but he has never had THE talk with them. However, their Grandmother tells them ALOT - more so than he would like and it is very possible they do actually know everything. My BF told me the other day that his Mom (the boys' Grandmother) told him his younger son confided to her that it scares him to see his Dad depressed because he doesn't want to end up like him. Not the kind of info I would have wanted my BF to be privy to - he feels bad enough as it is how this illness affects them. It has taken over a year for him to be comfortable enough to be open on a consistent basis to talk about the illness with me (it used to anger him alot to talk about it) so I"m hoping that at some point, we'll go down that road as well - talking to the boys.
I do sit the younger one down every now and then and remind him how much his Dad loves him, and that I do too. I explained to him what unconditional love means and he gets it now (well, sometimes) but he's just so angry himself so much of the time that I don't think that knowledge is in the forefront of his mind.
I think I now have the background and experience to say that parenting is in fact the hardest and most thankless job in the world. I just don't know how to get it through to my BF that alot of his kids' behaviors - not showing appreciation, the sibling arguing, etc.. is typical and not personal towards him. The poor guy just takes everything to heart and it's much much worse when he is in a depressive state. Is this something that will always be a problem due to his illness?
polarized13
06-10-2005, 01:41 AM
Angel,
Hey, sorry I didn't get a chance to get back to the board until now. Wow, I can't imagine that your bf hasn't sat down and had a heart to heart with the boys about his illness. I think it's really important to be open and honest. People will sometimes think that kids are too young, and don't understand, or it's inappropriate to discuss such things with them. I completely disagree. If they live it, they know about it. It helps so much to let your kids know they can come and talk to you about absolutely anything, even if that includes your own problems sometimes. I apologize to my kids if I am struggling and I yell at them or something. Parents aren't perfect, we're just people who make mistakes, and have bad days like anyone else. We need to get on thier level sometimes and keep communication open in order to forge real, honest, close relationships.
Z baby, that was incredible advice and insight into Angels situation, and absolutely true, all of it. If only knowing what the issues were was enough to solve them, but it's not always so easy.
Angel, you're doing great, I'm so proud of you for sticking in there and giving so much of yourself, I'm sure you're helping more than you can begin to realize. Good luck with all the stress involved with moving...I may not be around much in the next couple of weeks, I wish you the best of luck with everything!
~~heather~~
Hey, sorry I didn't get a chance to get back to the board until now. Wow, I can't imagine that your bf hasn't sat down and had a heart to heart with the boys about his illness. I think it's really important to be open and honest. People will sometimes think that kids are too young, and don't understand, or it's inappropriate to discuss such things with them. I completely disagree. If they live it, they know about it. It helps so much to let your kids know they can come and talk to you about absolutely anything, even if that includes your own problems sometimes. I apologize to my kids if I am struggling and I yell at them or something. Parents aren't perfect, we're just people who make mistakes, and have bad days like anyone else. We need to get on thier level sometimes and keep communication open in order to forge real, honest, close relationships.
Z baby, that was incredible advice and insight into Angels situation, and absolutely true, all of it. If only knowing what the issues were was enough to solve them, but it's not always so easy.
Angel, you're doing great, I'm so proud of you for sticking in there and giving so much of yourself, I'm sure you're helping more than you can begin to realize. Good luck with all the stress involved with moving...I may not be around much in the next couple of weeks, I wish you the best of luck with everything!
~~heather~~
angelblue65
06-10-2005, 11:10 AM
Hey Heather,
No apologies necessary. But as always, good to hear from you.
I understand what you're saying that the children should know all the facts. Like I said, it is very possible they do - either from their Grandmother (my BF's Mom) or (shudder) from their mom and I know if anything came from her, it would put him in a bad light.
Sometimes it feels like we've been together forever and other times I look at it and think, it's only been 14-15 months. So much has happened and we've both grown so much. I do have my own opinions on how things should be but with everything that he is going through right now, I just don't think he could handle a heart to heart with the boys. It's so different for me because I'm not the mom and not the woman he had these boys with. He values my opinion and we discuss everything regarding them together which is terrific but at the same time, there's certain things I have to be careful with in the way of suggestions. And then there's the way they have been treating their Dad, it would only be used against him at this point. I'm thinking that once they get into counseling and we do a family counseling as well, that will probably be a good time to bring everything to light. Until then, they would just make him feel like a piece of sh$% (as they pretty much do on a daily basis).
I'm hoping this move will be the start of something new. It seems like everything promising is just around the corner for us - new place (and it's nicer and the rent is actually cheaper), I'm hoping to get hired at the place I'm temping at which would be great because I can get health insurance for my BF AND his boys and he wouldn't have to pay COBRA any more, we found a new procedure being performed for torn meniscus where surgery does not help so he is going to try to settle with Worker's Comp soon (this is the one thing that has sent him into the severe depression he's been experiencing - he HATES not working and misses it so much) and go back to work in a limited capacity, and getting the boys into counseling when school begins again. Once all this is in place, I think we can finally let out that big sigh of relief. It's like we've been holding our breath for so long just waiting for the next bomb to drop. Doesn't it seem that when one bad thing happens, it just keeps happening 'til you feel like there's no end in sight? I wonder why that is.
No apologies necessary. But as always, good to hear from you.
I understand what you're saying that the children should know all the facts. Like I said, it is very possible they do - either from their Grandmother (my BF's Mom) or (shudder) from their mom and I know if anything came from her, it would put him in a bad light.
Sometimes it feels like we've been together forever and other times I look at it and think, it's only been 14-15 months. So much has happened and we've both grown so much. I do have my own opinions on how things should be but with everything that he is going through right now, I just don't think he could handle a heart to heart with the boys. It's so different for me because I'm not the mom and not the woman he had these boys with. He values my opinion and we discuss everything regarding them together which is terrific but at the same time, there's certain things I have to be careful with in the way of suggestions. And then there's the way they have been treating their Dad, it would only be used against him at this point. I'm thinking that once they get into counseling and we do a family counseling as well, that will probably be a good time to bring everything to light. Until then, they would just make him feel like a piece of sh$% (as they pretty much do on a daily basis).
I'm hoping this move will be the start of something new. It seems like everything promising is just around the corner for us - new place (and it's nicer and the rent is actually cheaper), I'm hoping to get hired at the place I'm temping at which would be great because I can get health insurance for my BF AND his boys and he wouldn't have to pay COBRA any more, we found a new procedure being performed for torn meniscus where surgery does not help so he is going to try to settle with Worker's Comp soon (this is the one thing that has sent him into the severe depression he's been experiencing - he HATES not working and misses it so much) and go back to work in a limited capacity, and getting the boys into counseling when school begins again. Once all this is in place, I think we can finally let out that big sigh of relief. It's like we've been holding our breath for so long just waiting for the next bomb to drop. Doesn't it seem that when one bad thing happens, it just keeps happening 'til you feel like there's no end in sight? I wonder why that is.
polarized13
06-10-2005, 05:45 PM
Angel,
Yeah, when it rains, it pours sometimes, that's for sure. But I always just try to keep some perspective when I'm feeling that way. Even with all of my challenges, I know I am really lucky and blessed for the most part, and there are lost of people out there who have never had or experienced all of the wonderfull things I have in my life, and although it's tough sometimes, and painful, and disappointing, it's still a beautiful world, and I have so much to be thankful for.
I can't remember how old you said your bf's sons are, but It may not be so easy at this point to change the dynamics of the relationship they have. I have been the same way with my kids from day one, so they know and expect certain things from our relationship. And yes, sometimes I do fear they will use my weaknesses against me, and I will ultimately pay for being so honest and open with them about my problems. But especially for a twelve year old, if you think they don't know when you're having an episode or you're stuggling, you're only fooling yourself. My son has seen me at my absolute worst, and I feel really bad about that, but I can't change it, I can only do what I can to make him understand that I have a medical condition, and it affects me sometimes, and it makes it hard for me to cope. For the most part, I am stable, and it isn't really an issue, but when stuff has happened, I have sat him down and insisted on discussing his feelings about it.
You don't have the ability to make that choice for your bf, and I understand that he has a hard time dealing with the issues going on, and their impact on his relationship with his boys. I think partially it's because he's a man, I mean let's face it, most men aren't known to be as open emotionally as women are, or willing to confront their vulnerabilities, especiallly when it comes to their kids. Also, your bf has alot of other issues to confront having to do with his own childhood. How is that going, by the way?
~~heather~~
Yeah, when it rains, it pours sometimes, that's for sure. But I always just try to keep some perspective when I'm feeling that way. Even with all of my challenges, I know I am really lucky and blessed for the most part, and there are lost of people out there who have never had or experienced all of the wonderfull things I have in my life, and although it's tough sometimes, and painful, and disappointing, it's still a beautiful world, and I have so much to be thankful for.
I can't remember how old you said your bf's sons are, but It may not be so easy at this point to change the dynamics of the relationship they have. I have been the same way with my kids from day one, so they know and expect certain things from our relationship. And yes, sometimes I do fear they will use my weaknesses against me, and I will ultimately pay for being so honest and open with them about my problems. But especially for a twelve year old, if you think they don't know when you're having an episode or you're stuggling, you're only fooling yourself. My son has seen me at my absolute worst, and I feel really bad about that, but I can't change it, I can only do what I can to make him understand that I have a medical condition, and it affects me sometimes, and it makes it hard for me to cope. For the most part, I am stable, and it isn't really an issue, but when stuff has happened, I have sat him down and insisted on discussing his feelings about it.
You don't have the ability to make that choice for your bf, and I understand that he has a hard time dealing with the issues going on, and their impact on his relationship with his boys. I think partially it's because he's a man, I mean let's face it, most men aren't known to be as open emotionally as women are, or willing to confront their vulnerabilities, especiallly when it comes to their kids. Also, your bf has alot of other issues to confront having to do with his own childhood. How is that going, by the way?
~~heather~~
Hedgehog No 1
06-11-2005, 03:14 PM
AB 65 :wave:
I can offer a chunk of advice on this one - unfortunately I don't have the time right now - check in tomorrow for some detailed help and advice - best I can do for now. :bouncing:
Hedge. :cool:
ok, so I'm running a 'little' late with the reply ~ a few hic-ups this end...
I have tried to decide exactly what to put by way of a helpful reply and to what degree I go into this, without writing a small book on the subject.
Here goes.
Read about MY past in previous threads (on-line experiment 1 and 2). That should tell you that I understand EXACTLY where your boyfriend is coming from.
I spent the last seven years raising my two kids as a non-working, single parent, who was diagnosed as being Bi-P II, taking a ton of lithium in that time.
It is VERY hard raising kids ~ fact
Even when they are truly wonderful ~ it is still hard ~ for ANYONE.
THEN INTRODUCE THE WHOLE 'MENTAL ILLNESS' ISSUE...
I found myself over-compensating for MY past and for MY illness, when it came to raising my kids.
I don't want to turn YOUR thread into a repeat of things I bored hundreds of others with, so read my story in the archives, please.
The MOST important factor I discovered in keeping us together as a family was talking. I MUST expand on this so you can FULLY understand. I don't mean 'just' talking ~ I mean telling the truth - to your kids.
There will be a flurry of fingers on keyboards at this point telling me that kids should be kept out of 'grown-up' business ~ thats 5417...
When I got custody of my kids I set a few 'rules' for MYSELF.
1) Tell them the truth.
2) If they are old enough to ask ~ give them an answer.
IT WORKED ~ my kids are now 10 and 8 and VERY stable.
I took the time to explain that "...I was ill..."
I told them that because of that, I got angry and shouted more than I should.
I told them because of the meds, it made me act and feel a certain way, which I didn't like but had to try and deal with as best as I could.
I FORCED myself to TRY ( I rarely succeeded) and stop worrying if I was a good enough parent and doing 'the right thing' all the time.
Just 'get on with it' ~ give your kids all the love and support you can...
Do NOT fall into the trap of 'over-compensating' for your own faults ~ in the end, the kids will suffer and so will the parents, as a direct result.
NOTE:
Just MY opinion ~ from a VERY proud Daddy ~ whos kids think the sun really does shine out of 'that place'...
Hope it helps, if not then at leats it may just give one persons perspective on the ~ kids & parental mental illness issue ~
Hedge~ :cool:
I can offer a chunk of advice on this one - unfortunately I don't have the time right now - check in tomorrow for some detailed help and advice - best I can do for now. :bouncing:
Hedge. :cool:
ok, so I'm running a 'little' late with the reply ~ a few hic-ups this end...
I have tried to decide exactly what to put by way of a helpful reply and to what degree I go into this, without writing a small book on the subject.
Here goes.
Read about MY past in previous threads (on-line experiment 1 and 2). That should tell you that I understand EXACTLY where your boyfriend is coming from.
I spent the last seven years raising my two kids as a non-working, single parent, who was diagnosed as being Bi-P II, taking a ton of lithium in that time.
It is VERY hard raising kids ~ fact
Even when they are truly wonderful ~ it is still hard ~ for ANYONE.
THEN INTRODUCE THE WHOLE 'MENTAL ILLNESS' ISSUE...
I found myself over-compensating for MY past and for MY illness, when it came to raising my kids.
I don't want to turn YOUR thread into a repeat of things I bored hundreds of others with, so read my story in the archives, please.
The MOST important factor I discovered in keeping us together as a family was talking. I MUST expand on this so you can FULLY understand. I don't mean 'just' talking ~ I mean telling the truth - to your kids.
There will be a flurry of fingers on keyboards at this point telling me that kids should be kept out of 'grown-up' business ~ thats 5417...
When I got custody of my kids I set a few 'rules' for MYSELF.
1) Tell them the truth.
2) If they are old enough to ask ~ give them an answer.
IT WORKED ~ my kids are now 10 and 8 and VERY stable.
I took the time to explain that "...I was ill..."
I told them that because of that, I got angry and shouted more than I should.
I told them because of the meds, it made me act and feel a certain way, which I didn't like but had to try and deal with as best as I could.
I FORCED myself to TRY ( I rarely succeeded) and stop worrying if I was a good enough parent and doing 'the right thing' all the time.
Just 'get on with it' ~ give your kids all the love and support you can...
Do NOT fall into the trap of 'over-compensating' for your own faults ~ in the end, the kids will suffer and so will the parents, as a direct result.
NOTE:
Just MY opinion ~ from a VERY proud Daddy ~ whos kids think the sun really does shine out of 'that place'...
Hope it helps, if not then at leats it may just give one persons perspective on the ~ kids & parental mental illness issue ~
Hedge~ :cool:
angelblue65
06-14-2005, 10:47 AM
Heather,
My BF has kind of put a backseat to dealing with the whole childhood issue thing. It's not that he's trying to hide from it but there's so much current stress that he's dealing with (he's at a decision making point about his Worker's Comp. case and facing another/different surgery, his boys, moving, etc.) that it's not the main focus of his therapy. I know you've said before that if you chose to really start dealing with it, it might not be a good thing all around. I'm sure when the time is right, it will happen so I don't push.
Hedge,
Thank you for all your wonderful advice and I have read your posts before but reread and it was certainly helpful.
My BF and I had a discussion last night about it - he knows he needs to have another conversation with his sons. But because of all the ignorance out there in the world, society as a whole in how it views bipolar, we both agreed that putting a label on what Dad is going through may not be the best thing until the kids are more stable (going to therapy themselves) so they can handle all the info in a more mature manner. I'd hate for it to be used against him. He does know, however, that he needs to talk to them about what he's going through and what they are SEEING him go through. You are right about being careful not falling into a trap overcompensating for past mistakes or what was done to him. He's aware but it's not always so easy.
Heather, I have to share something regarding my BF's older son, the one who had the eye injury. He's very standoffish and he doesn't "do hugs" although he's mature for the most part and has a very funny sense of humor. He just doesn't show emotion or admit that he cares about anything. He'll show concern for his Dad to me but not to his Father, you know? Well, on Sunday when we were cramming a big part of our move in that day, I was unloading our trucks and the boys were bringing the boxes into the apartment. Alot of the boxes were really heavy. And it was hot. Chris asked his Dad in a really concerned voice (which is foreign to us) if he could tell me to slow down because he didn't want to see me hurt myself and that he was worried. Later, my BF told me he has never showed that concern for anyone (except for his Dad of course) and I was so incredibly moved. It doesn't take much to make me happy and I will always appreciate those little things!
My BF has kind of put a backseat to dealing with the whole childhood issue thing. It's not that he's trying to hide from it but there's so much current stress that he's dealing with (he's at a decision making point about his Worker's Comp. case and facing another/different surgery, his boys, moving, etc.) that it's not the main focus of his therapy. I know you've said before that if you chose to really start dealing with it, it might not be a good thing all around. I'm sure when the time is right, it will happen so I don't push.
Hedge,
Thank you for all your wonderful advice and I have read your posts before but reread and it was certainly helpful.
My BF and I had a discussion last night about it - he knows he needs to have another conversation with his sons. But because of all the ignorance out there in the world, society as a whole in how it views bipolar, we both agreed that putting a label on what Dad is going through may not be the best thing until the kids are more stable (going to therapy themselves) so they can handle all the info in a more mature manner. I'd hate for it to be used against him. He does know, however, that he needs to talk to them about what he's going through and what they are SEEING him go through. You are right about being careful not falling into a trap overcompensating for past mistakes or what was done to him. He's aware but it's not always so easy.
Heather, I have to share something regarding my BF's older son, the one who had the eye injury. He's very standoffish and he doesn't "do hugs" although he's mature for the most part and has a very funny sense of humor. He just doesn't show emotion or admit that he cares about anything. He'll show concern for his Dad to me but not to his Father, you know? Well, on Sunday when we were cramming a big part of our move in that day, I was unloading our trucks and the boys were bringing the boxes into the apartment. Alot of the boxes were really heavy. And it was hot. Chris asked his Dad in a really concerned voice (which is foreign to us) if he could tell me to slow down because he didn't want to see me hurt myself and that he was worried. Later, my BF told me he has never showed that concern for anyone (except for his Dad of course) and I was so incredibly moved. It doesn't take much to make me happy and I will always appreciate those little things!
polarized13
06-15-2005, 02:13 PM
Hey Angel,
That's awesome, I'm glad you guys got moved and are working on getting settled in. It sounds like those are some great kids you guys have there. And as hard as it is for us grown-ups to cope with the whole mental illness thing, I'm sure it's ten times harder for them. I remember driving home from my p-doc apt when I was fisrt diagnosed, I was in shock. It took about a month before I could even really wrap my brain around it, you know? However you guys decide to handle it, I'm sure everything will work out ok.
As far as your bf doing the counseling thing for his PTSD, and not wanting to take on more than he can handle right now, and adding to his stress, I completely understand. It is a really emotional thing to cope with, and sometimes it's just too much. I'm not sure anyone could really understand unless they have been there.
I'm glad you guys are hanging in there, and it sounds like you're doing pretty well. I'm gonna be out of town, doing a little summer vacationing at the lake, so I won't be around at all after friday, for about a week. Then we're coming back for two weeks, and then leaving again for California for a few weeks, not sure exactly how long, but I will have access to the internet, so I will check in with you all... (yes, the big custody battle is a comin'...)
My son is here now, so I'm enjoying some good quality time with the kids...
Take care,
~~heather~~
That's awesome, I'm glad you guys got moved and are working on getting settled in. It sounds like those are some great kids you guys have there. And as hard as it is for us grown-ups to cope with the whole mental illness thing, I'm sure it's ten times harder for them. I remember driving home from my p-doc apt when I was fisrt diagnosed, I was in shock. It took about a month before I could even really wrap my brain around it, you know? However you guys decide to handle it, I'm sure everything will work out ok.
As far as your bf doing the counseling thing for his PTSD, and not wanting to take on more than he can handle right now, and adding to his stress, I completely understand. It is a really emotional thing to cope with, and sometimes it's just too much. I'm not sure anyone could really understand unless they have been there.
I'm glad you guys are hanging in there, and it sounds like you're doing pretty well. I'm gonna be out of town, doing a little summer vacationing at the lake, so I won't be around at all after friday, for about a week. Then we're coming back for two weeks, and then leaving again for California for a few weeks, not sure exactly how long, but I will have access to the internet, so I will check in with you all... (yes, the big custody battle is a comin'...)
My son is here now, so I'm enjoying some good quality time with the kids...
Take care,
~~heather~~
angelblue65
06-15-2005, 02:45 PM
Heather, I'm so happy to hear you are getting a break - a week at the lake sounds fantastic! I assume your son will be with you for the vacation?
I am thinking positive thoughts for you and your family regarding the battle ahead. I do hope things go in your favor and keep us all posted if and when you can.
GOOD LUCK!!!
I am thinking positive thoughts for you and your family regarding the battle ahead. I do hope things go in your favor and keep us all posted if and when you can.
GOOD LUCK!!!
polarized13
06-16-2005, 02:21 PM
Thanks Angel,
Yes, my ds is with us for the next few weeks. We're going to have some fun when we go to California, too. My parents have a cabin at the lake, and we're going to visit all of our friends and family that we haven't seen since we moved. I'm not really stressing too much about the court stuff. I figure I will just see what happens, and leave it in the hands of the attorneys, they get paid the big bucks to deal with the garbage, so I don't have to. I know it will still be tough, but we will get through it.
I'll let you know how things progress, so far, we are fine besides being several thousand dollars poorer... :eek:
~~heather~~
Yes, my ds is with us for the next few weeks. We're going to have some fun when we go to California, too. My parents have a cabin at the lake, and we're going to visit all of our friends and family that we haven't seen since we moved. I'm not really stressing too much about the court stuff. I figure I will just see what happens, and leave it in the hands of the attorneys, they get paid the big bucks to deal with the garbage, so I don't have to. I know it will still be tough, but we will get through it.
I'll let you know how things progress, so far, we are fine besides being several thousand dollars poorer... :eek:
~~heather~~