redrdr
06-10-2005, 02:58 AM
I've been using tylenol and darvocet for over five years. I have two painful chronic diseases. I know that I have overused them. I have right-sided pain, by my lower ribs and my abdomen is distended. Is this from possible liver damage caused by the meds? (gallbladder is already out) I have been researching on the internet and read so much about liver damage, ascites (the swelling), etc. I stupidly thought it was "just tylenol" and that darvocet was a "mild" pain reliever. I go to the doctor Tues., but am scared to death. I also don't want to admit how much I've used, but know it's going to probably show up anyway. Not had any bloodwork done in ages. Don't have any medical insurance, either. Now I read alot on these boards and am scared even further. Any info, especially on the symptoms/pain? Could it be anything else (I pray!!!)
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happyelf
06-10-2005, 10:50 AM
Hi redrdr--welcome to the boards. Dr will probably run a CBC blood test that includes a liver panel. Liver enzymes are usually elevated when you take Acetaminophen(tylenol)...Don't let that worry you too much--the good news is it can be reversed. The liver has amazing regenerative powers. (mine regenerated itself after total liver failure...so I'm a success story) They'll tell you to d/c any acet & probably retest again in about 2-4 wks to see if the #'s are going down. They check AST and ALT levels--normal range being AST 5-45 ALT 5-60...it's not uncommon for them to above that even w/o the use of any meds. Everything we eat, drink and breathe goes is filtered thru our liver. Even viruses (colds ect) will elevate those numbers. So even if the #'s are not back w/in normal range, as long as they are trending down, that's a good sign, and that's what they are looking for. The liver can become a little enlarged from acet--but that too will go down as you discontinue Acet use. I know you don't want to admit how much you've been taking, and it will be hard--but tell the dr everything-don't sugar coat it. You have nothing to be ashamed of...you're in pain. Remember, the dr is there to help, not judge you. It will accomplish two things: 1) immediate treatment/recovery of any liver problems you may have from the meds and prevent any further damage that may become irreversible 2) your dr will know the level of pain you are at--and it' not being controlled. Depending on your labs they may be able to change your course of treatment, control it w/something that will not be as hard or damaging to the liver. (something w/out acet)
By all means, if your abdomen becomes really really painful or if you notice jaundice or yellow eyes, call yor dr. Hopefully this helps. Playing the waiting game until Tues is tough. Hang in there...Any more questions or you just want to vent--I'm here - and there are a lot of really smart ppl here w/good advice. Take care...hope yo're feeling better today.
Gina
By all means, if your abdomen becomes really really painful or if you notice jaundice or yellow eyes, call yor dr. Hopefully this helps. Playing the waiting game until Tues is tough. Hang in there...Any more questions or you just want to vent--I'm here - and there are a lot of really smart ppl here w/good advice. Take care...hope yo're feeling better today.
Gina
redrdr
06-10-2005, 04:15 PM
Thank you so much for responding and your kind words and encouragement. I am so happy that you recovered. Did you have complete failure? Don't need a transplant? How long did you do/have what caused your failure?
I am still so scared silly that I haven't made my appointment until now. I don't want to chicken out, but I know I might. I keep thinking if I wait a few more weeks, then there will be no drugs in my system. But, I am doubting if I can hang in there that long. I am in real pain. I have serious swelling in my abdomen and extreme right upper quadrant pain. I read something online about ascites and that sounds right. It said in cases of liver problems from tylenol, ascites shows up in "end" of the liver disease. I do not have yellowing of eyes/skin. But...I have taken tylenol and tylenol-containing pain meds, and sinus meds with tylenol ALOT for the past few years. I was just plain ignorant of the sinus stuff and sleep stuff having tylenol too, so...duh...I was almost double dosing most of the time. I'm taking some OTC diuretics right now to try to eliminate the bloat, but so far, no good. I am NOT taking anything for the pain, and that's SO hard. Thank you so much for listening!! I pray that you continue to stay healthy!
I am still so scared silly that I haven't made my appointment until now. I don't want to chicken out, but I know I might. I keep thinking if I wait a few more weeks, then there will be no drugs in my system. But, I am doubting if I can hang in there that long. I am in real pain. I have serious swelling in my abdomen and extreme right upper quadrant pain. I read something online about ascites and that sounds right. It said in cases of liver problems from tylenol, ascites shows up in "end" of the liver disease. I do not have yellowing of eyes/skin. But...I have taken tylenol and tylenol-containing pain meds, and sinus meds with tylenol ALOT for the past few years. I was just plain ignorant of the sinus stuff and sleep stuff having tylenol too, so...duh...I was almost double dosing most of the time. I'm taking some OTC diuretics right now to try to eliminate the bloat, but so far, no good. I am NOT taking anything for the pain, and that's SO hard. Thank you so much for listening!! I pray that you continue to stay healthy!
redrdr
06-10-2005, 04:31 PM
Newbie mistake?! Did my answer to HappyElf go through? Sorry
happyelf
06-11-2005, 11:27 AM
Hi redrdr How are you feeling today? Get any rest last night? Is the swelling the same or any better? Am thinking of you and sending good thoughts your way.
It is sooo hard to not take anything when you are in pain. Please don't cancel your appt Tues--let your fear work in a positive manner. Acet is in sooo many products-you almost have be be your own little detective to find out what is in these OTC's. Don't beat yourself up over this--it happens more often than we think. You are not jaundice-that's a really good sign!! No matter what the cause of the abdominal dissention, don't hesitate to get help before Tues if the pain or swelling is too overwhelming. While the internet is helpful---alot of info is accurate--a lot is not. Some sites are jissing info or generalizing it. Some of these sites can really scare the socks off you...you go to one site & read one thing, and go to another--they don't mention half of what the other site said. So don't overload on info.
I had complete failure-TLF. I had a minor flu, hadn't eaten in 4 days & was taking acet and didn't realize how much was in other OTC's. (had been taking it for a long time also) Husband couldn't wake me. When I woke from the coma (aft a few days) was moved to univ transplant hosp & put at the top of the transplant list-next liver was mine. (I'm 40, healthy, no other issues) After a few days my #'s began trending down & kept going. I was told it begins regeneration w/in about a day or so after you d/c the toxin, but the fact they began to trend was good sign. I'm home and fine--that's the main thing. I have some memory loss-but you know, who doesn't? :D (now I have an excuse haha) Still see the transplant drs for reg labs, but you know-they tell me I can take Ibuprofen and acet if I need it. (BUUUUT-I don't) Anyway I'm good. Just shows that it can be reversed.
Take care, rest and update when you can.
HappyElf/Gina
It is sooo hard to not take anything when you are in pain. Please don't cancel your appt Tues--let your fear work in a positive manner. Acet is in sooo many products-you almost have be be your own little detective to find out what is in these OTC's. Don't beat yourself up over this--it happens more often than we think. You are not jaundice-that's a really good sign!! No matter what the cause of the abdominal dissention, don't hesitate to get help before Tues if the pain or swelling is too overwhelming. While the internet is helpful---alot of info is accurate--a lot is not. Some sites are jissing info or generalizing it. Some of these sites can really scare the socks off you...you go to one site & read one thing, and go to another--they don't mention half of what the other site said. So don't overload on info.
I had complete failure-TLF. I had a minor flu, hadn't eaten in 4 days & was taking acet and didn't realize how much was in other OTC's. (had been taking it for a long time also) Husband couldn't wake me. When I woke from the coma (aft a few days) was moved to univ transplant hosp & put at the top of the transplant list-next liver was mine. (I'm 40, healthy, no other issues) After a few days my #'s began trending down & kept going. I was told it begins regeneration w/in about a day or so after you d/c the toxin, but the fact they began to trend was good sign. I'm home and fine--that's the main thing. I have some memory loss-but you know, who doesn't? :D (now I have an excuse haha) Still see the transplant drs for reg labs, but you know-they tell me I can take Ibuprofen and acet if I need it. (BUUUUT-I don't) Anyway I'm good. Just shows that it can be reversed.
Take care, rest and update when you can.
HappyElf/Gina
redrdr
06-11-2005, 09:44 PM
thanks for answering and all the info
not a good day today;bloat is worse;slept a little last night, though
Am confused (now I have an excuse lol) You sound like you went home w/o needing the transplant,that liver started regenerating, but then why do you see transplant docs? Or did you get the transplant and then #'s went down. But if got transplant, what do you mean about regeneration? Just in general? Yours didn't regenerate?
I am very happy for you! I'm 49, single mom of two boys, but have two chronic illnesses. Worry that it will not make me a good candidate. Also no ins. Yikes,huh? Also worry that since the ascites have formed (giving the bloat) that mine is past the reversing process. I honestly try not to worry, but I'm really things don't look good.
May I ask how long you took acet and if you ever took too much at a time? If I add up all the other OTC meds I was taking some days with the tylenol, it's really scary. Also, I had a horrible time two years ago, but thought it was the flu and one of my chronic illnesses acting up. Of course I kept taking the tylenol for the symptoms and even Darvocet with it...duh...didn't know then that Darv. had acet. The label reads Darvocet/APAP never in a million years would I have thought APAP had anything to do with tylenol!
Again,thank you. It really helps to hear a success story, also to talk some about it. I don't want to tell people. I feel so stupid/guilty for doing this to myself.
I really am glad all worked out for you. I'm sure it was terrible. Take care!
not a good day today;bloat is worse;slept a little last night, though
Am confused (now I have an excuse lol) You sound like you went home w/o needing the transplant,that liver started regenerating, but then why do you see transplant docs? Or did you get the transplant and then #'s went down. But if got transplant, what do you mean about regeneration? Just in general? Yours didn't regenerate?
I am very happy for you! I'm 49, single mom of two boys, but have two chronic illnesses. Worry that it will not make me a good candidate. Also no ins. Yikes,huh? Also worry that since the ascites have formed (giving the bloat) that mine is past the reversing process. I honestly try not to worry, but I'm really things don't look good.
May I ask how long you took acet and if you ever took too much at a time? If I add up all the other OTC meds I was taking some days with the tylenol, it's really scary. Also, I had a horrible time two years ago, but thought it was the flu and one of my chronic illnesses acting up. Of course I kept taking the tylenol for the symptoms and even Darvocet with it...duh...didn't know then that Darv. had acet. The label reads Darvocet/APAP never in a million years would I have thought APAP had anything to do with tylenol!
Again,thank you. It really helps to hear a success story, also to talk some about it. I don't want to tell people. I feel so stupid/guilty for doing this to myself.
I really am glad all worked out for you. I'm sure it was terrible. Take care!
happyelf
06-12-2005, 11:53 AM
I'm sorry--I neglected to write that no I didn't need a transplant-in the time we waited for a liver, my #'s began to go down...I still see the transplant dr for labs, hep screenings/vaccinations and if I need one in the future a lot of the pre-testing legwork will be done...I'll be established patient. I didn't have any Hepatitis or other diseases, but now need to be vaccinated because my immune system is low and I can get sick easier than ppl w/"normal" #'s. I took a lot of acet over a long period of time too--they recommend 4000mg/day short term--2000mg/day for long term use. I took more than that. I'll have to ask my husband--I forgot the particulars. They can't turn you away due to no ins--don't fret over that. I am 40 and the mother of 3(two 5yr olds and one 11yr old) so I know how daunting it can be to be faced with this. Please, please, if you really think you're health is in trouble--don't hesitiate or wait til Tues--go to the ER. They will not judge you!! And a lot of ppl don't know about Acet in Darvocet--I didn't. No jaundice is a good thing--ascites is usually accompanied by jaundice--but I know you fear the worst due to how you feel. Don't jump to conclusions. Waiting will only make things worse. Check in later and let me know how you're doing. Think about going to the ER. Gina
redrdr
06-13-2005, 12:23 AM
Thanks again for responding and listening.
Not a good day
Swelling is bad, but worry is worse. I have read too much,I guess, and now am really worried. Do you know anything about ascites and portal hypertension? It seems that is the most common reason for the swelling if I am right about the liver damage due to the meds. I was extremely upset when I read the numbers about "stuff"...like 90% of people with port. hyp. will get varices and bleeding with OVER 50% of them dying! Did you have any of these symptoms? Jaundice, Varices, Ascites, Portal Hypertension?
Thanks for sharing. I can't express how much I appreciate it.
I am so upset with myself. This will kill my parents (Mom who is already ill with diabetes and heart disease, Dad having to be her caregiver) and even more sadly my two boys. I am their only parent, as when their Dad left in '90, he kind of left them, too. He's only seen my younger son 3 times in 5 yrs., and my older one, not since '97 (he lives 20 min. away and remarried). He couldn't handle me being ill or the 2nd son coming along, but mainly he says it was a "midlife crisis". He has never fought with the younger son, just apathetic. So.....I guess besides my fear of all this, I am feeling overwhelmed about my sons. And of course, no med. ins. doesn't help my worries!
Gotta go for now, sorry. Not a good day. Thanks again!
Not a good day
Swelling is bad, but worry is worse. I have read too much,I guess, and now am really worried. Do you know anything about ascites and portal hypertension? It seems that is the most common reason for the swelling if I am right about the liver damage due to the meds. I was extremely upset when I read the numbers about "stuff"...like 90% of people with port. hyp. will get varices and bleeding with OVER 50% of them dying! Did you have any of these symptoms? Jaundice, Varices, Ascites, Portal Hypertension?
Thanks for sharing. I can't express how much I appreciate it.
I am so upset with myself. This will kill my parents (Mom who is already ill with diabetes and heart disease, Dad having to be her caregiver) and even more sadly my two boys. I am their only parent, as when their Dad left in '90, he kind of left them, too. He's only seen my younger son 3 times in 5 yrs., and my older one, not since '97 (he lives 20 min. away and remarried). He couldn't handle me being ill or the 2nd son coming along, but mainly he says it was a "midlife crisis". He has never fought with the younger son, just apathetic. So.....I guess besides my fear of all this, I am feeling overwhelmed about my sons. And of course, no med. ins. doesn't help my worries!
Gotta go for now, sorry. Not a good day. Thanks again!
happyelf
06-13-2005, 01:55 PM
hey redrdr--sorry to hear you're not feeling any better. I know the stress really adds to it. A few things--
1) Stay off the internet. I know you want learn everything you can about the illness-but right now--you don't know exactly what that is, so all you're doing is adding to your symptoms and stress.
2) Throw stats out the window...I am proof--as was my roommate in the stepdown unit--everyone is different how you respond to treatment is unique. She was worse off than me--she collapsed in the store--her kidneys failed but didn't begin working for 5 days. (Mine took 36 hrs to come back.)She took presrip drugs containing Acet daily for 5-6yrs(most of which she bought on the street), along w/OTC plain acet and ibuprofen and then OTC flu meds to combat flu virus--AND drank a 6pk & a 1/2 every night. She went home same day I did. She was really really jaundice, had ascites, hypertension. No transplant for her either--her #'s began to trend down after she was treated-but it took awhile. She had no ins at all. That's why they are "statistics"--averages. Take 10 ppl w/liver problems and they will tell you 10 different things as to symptoms, stats and treatments...yes there are a lot of gold standards used for the basics, but it's case by case. My husband was told I would not live thru the first night. Then was told less than 10% chance of survival after I lived through the first few days. On life support, he asked what it to expect IF I did live- was told I probably wouldn't wake up if I lived--then they said if I woke, 95% chance of vegetative state. And look at me now. So every little milestone is a different statistic. (did that make sense? I ramble sometimes :-) I had all the stuff you indicated--and I know jaundice happens all ppl when the liver fails--they told me at the very least your eyes get yellow before a coma. I don't remember when mine started. I know I wasn't skin jaundice when I came home...my eyes went back to white a day before I left hosp. My roomie had very yellow skin and eyes when she went home.
3) Don't beat yourself up...There is no shame in trying to relieve your chronic pain. now at least the Dr knows how much pain you're in. I know the guilt you feel--I felt it too when I realized what happened.When I woke up it was "you need a liver transplant to live." You sit and think abt all the ppl you "let down", the way your life is now, and how your and everyone else around you will be impacted by this. I use this phrase a lot: "It is what it is--I can't change what got me here, but I can change what happens next." You can't change the amt of meds you took--but you can change what you do now. You need to see the dr tomorrow DON'T CANCEL--if you took enough meds to really cause ascites and any liver damage--putting a dr appt off will not get the meds out of your system. It will prolong your chances of recovering fully. The longer you let it go--the worse it is. You are a single mom. Your boys NEED YOU. They don't have their dad--and it's his loss. Second guessing how ppl will react is not fair to them...your family may surprise you. When someone we love is in dire need, we together and do whatever it takes to keep them w/us. Your parents love you-mom will still have your dad to help her. How hard do you think it'll be on them if you're not here--then mom and dad are sick and ahve 2 teens to raise-w/a dad who may or maynot want to be around.
You don't owe anyone an explanation-except your Doc--he's not going to judge you. You don't have to justify your actions--it is what it is. :-)
Ok--I'll get off my soapbox. I'm just worried because I've been there. Update when you can. One more day til Tues. Rest and don't lift anything heavy. Hopefully today is better or no worse than yesterday.Relax if you can. Don't take any meds. NONE!! But don't lie to the dr abt the pain you're in either!!
BTW--have the kids detected that you're not well?
Gina
1) Stay off the internet. I know you want learn everything you can about the illness-but right now--you don't know exactly what that is, so all you're doing is adding to your symptoms and stress.
2) Throw stats out the window...I am proof--as was my roommate in the stepdown unit--everyone is different how you respond to treatment is unique. She was worse off than me--she collapsed in the store--her kidneys failed but didn't begin working for 5 days. (Mine took 36 hrs to come back.)She took presrip drugs containing Acet daily for 5-6yrs(most of which she bought on the street), along w/OTC plain acet and ibuprofen and then OTC flu meds to combat flu virus--AND drank a 6pk & a 1/2 every night. She went home same day I did. She was really really jaundice, had ascites, hypertension. No transplant for her either--her #'s began to trend down after she was treated-but it took awhile. She had no ins at all. That's why they are "statistics"--averages. Take 10 ppl w/liver problems and they will tell you 10 different things as to symptoms, stats and treatments...yes there are a lot of gold standards used for the basics, but it's case by case. My husband was told I would not live thru the first night. Then was told less than 10% chance of survival after I lived through the first few days. On life support, he asked what it to expect IF I did live- was told I probably wouldn't wake up if I lived--then they said if I woke, 95% chance of vegetative state. And look at me now. So every little milestone is a different statistic. (did that make sense? I ramble sometimes :-) I had all the stuff you indicated--and I know jaundice happens all ppl when the liver fails--they told me at the very least your eyes get yellow before a coma. I don't remember when mine started. I know I wasn't skin jaundice when I came home...my eyes went back to white a day before I left hosp. My roomie had very yellow skin and eyes when she went home.
3) Don't beat yourself up...There is no shame in trying to relieve your chronic pain. now at least the Dr knows how much pain you're in. I know the guilt you feel--I felt it too when I realized what happened.When I woke up it was "you need a liver transplant to live." You sit and think abt all the ppl you "let down", the way your life is now, and how your and everyone else around you will be impacted by this. I use this phrase a lot: "It is what it is--I can't change what got me here, but I can change what happens next." You can't change the amt of meds you took--but you can change what you do now. You need to see the dr tomorrow DON'T CANCEL--if you took enough meds to really cause ascites and any liver damage--putting a dr appt off will not get the meds out of your system. It will prolong your chances of recovering fully. The longer you let it go--the worse it is. You are a single mom. Your boys NEED YOU. They don't have their dad--and it's his loss. Second guessing how ppl will react is not fair to them...your family may surprise you. When someone we love is in dire need, we together and do whatever it takes to keep them w/us. Your parents love you-mom will still have your dad to help her. How hard do you think it'll be on them if you're not here--then mom and dad are sick and ahve 2 teens to raise-w/a dad who may or maynot want to be around.
You don't owe anyone an explanation-except your Doc--he's not going to judge you. You don't have to justify your actions--it is what it is. :-)
Ok--I'll get off my soapbox. I'm just worried because I've been there. Update when you can. One more day til Tues. Rest and don't lift anything heavy. Hopefully today is better or no worse than yesterday.Relax if you can. Don't take any meds. NONE!! But don't lie to the dr abt the pain you're in either!!
BTW--have the kids detected that you're not well?
Gina