Interesting article here on the low-fat, high carbohydrate diet vs. the low carbohydrate, high protein diet (emphasis on low carbohydrate).
http://www.beyondveg.com/esmay-d/bio/esmay-d-bio-1a.shtml

Alan

Hi Alan, thanks for posting that link. Interesting read, indeed! I've got to really wonder, though, where this guy was getting his 'vegan diet' info.

His menu of: 3 quarts of cooked brown rice daily, several cups of beans, and considerable amounts of fruits, fruit juices, fresh salads, fresh nuts, and so on....

He said he spoke to 'professionals'. Sheesh! If they are recommending this kind of stuff, the school they trained at needs to lose their certification! The beans, in moderation - NOT cupfulls - might have been alright, but jeez, 3 QUARTS of brown rice!?!?!? sounds like BUNCHES of fruit and fruit juices? This menu sounds pretty much like "death from sugar overload and nutrient deprivation".

>>45 grams daily of protein, no more than 20 or 30 grams a day of fat....<<

I'd be interested to get your take on this. I'm a believer in more fats, less protein for most (though not ALL) folks.

>>brown rice, beans, mushrooms, fresh fruits and vegetables, occasional nuts, pita bread, small amounts of hummus, and small amounts of fat-free cheeses or an occasional bit of peanut butter now and then.<<

For all (not that there was much) his talk about eating COMPLEX carbs, again, I see this mistaken interpretation of carbs - he's got some unhealthy, generally rancid, fats here, followed by SIMPLE carbs (rice hummus, pita). The only complex I see, really, are the fruits, beans, and mushrooms. Again, beans in moderation, mushrooms as purchased from the super market (white button) are yummy, but not much nutrient value. Now, if he's referring to reiki or shiitake, OK. But, we both know those fruits and the rice pretty much go to sugar right away.

All in all, I think he's pretty fortunate he finally found something to work with at least a reasonable scientific basis. Man! It amazes me at how people take a portion of a concept and run with it. I know LOTS of VERY healthy vegans, and though grains do play a part in most of their diets, I've not heard of anything quite as off the wall as what he presented.

I know this is long, but I was going to drop you a note. I had the PLEASURE of seeing an hour with Dr. Atkins on PBS recently. Very interesting man. One discrepency that I noted between his presentation and yours was your statement that people need NO carbohydrates - I found his take on this significantly different from yours, as he vehemently professed the need for phytonutrients. The ONLY source I know of, besides supplements, is from complex carbs, specifically the more brightly colored plant foods, yeah, yeah, that does include SOME fruits (there's that ol' glycemic index thing to watch).

Anyway, thanks again for the link. Sorry i responded with a book - http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


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Copper
Let Miracles Replace all Grievances

Originally posted by Copper:
Hi Alan, thanks for posting that link. Interesting read, indeed! I've got to really wonder, though, where this guy was getting his 'vegan diet' info.


I'm not sure where he got his vegan diet info from, but he is not alone in that respect. Not too long ago there was a guy posting in the Weight Loss forum that had been a vegetarain for about 10 years and weighed over 400 pounds, which I'm sure came from high carb grains and fruits in excess. I guess some take it to mean that if it's not from an animal, then it is fair game to eat (no pun intended http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif)


>>45 grams daily of protein, no more than 20 or 30 grams a day of fat....<<

I'd be interested to get your take on this. I'm a believer in more fats, less protein for most (though not ALL) folks.


Why less protein? Less than 45 grams per day? Even the RDA for protein is 15% and for a 2000 calorie diet this equates to 75 grams of protein. And usually the RDA levels for vitamins and nutrients are just enough to prevent disease (well, except for those excessive carbs they recommend), not levels for optimum health. From what I have read, protein intake levels should be anywhere from 0.7 to 1.0 grams per pound of lean body mass per day depending on activity levels. If you are lifting weights and attempting to add muscle mass, this should be bumped up to 1.0-1.2 grams per pound of LBM/day. For me with about 150 pounds of lean body mass, 0.7 to 1.0 grams of protein per day equates to 105 to 150 grams of protein. A typical daily protein intake for me is 2 eggs and 3 oz meat for breakfast (33 gm protein), a can of tuna in olive oil for lunch (32 gm protein), and a 16 oz steak or equivalent chicken, fish, or pork for dinner (112 gm protein) for a total of 177 grams of protein per day (there is also lots of veggies, some cheese, and some nuts thrown in there also).


>>brown rice, beans, mushrooms, fresh fruits and vegetables, occasional nuts, pita bread, small amounts of hummus, and small amounts of fat-free cheeses or an occasional bit of peanut butter now and then.<<

For all (not that there was much) his talk about eating COMPLEX carbs, again, I see this mistaken interpretation of carbs - he's got some unhealthy, generally rancid, fats here, followed by SIMPLE carbs (rice hummus, pita). The only complex I see, really, are the fruits, beans, and mushrooms.


Part of the problem today is what is the definition of a complex carbohydrate? If you go strictly by the textbook difinition, those grains and breads qualify as complex (they aren't simple carbs , i.e. sugars). And manufacturers and marketing folks take advantage of this all of the time by making claims that this here grain based processed food (typically a bread of some sort) is loaded with complex carbs when in fact in will probably raise your bloodsugar quicker than simple sugar. The only truely complex carbs in my opinion are in above ground vegetables. This message needs to get out.



I had the PLEASURE of seeing an hour with Dr. Atkins on PBS recently. Very interesting man. One discrepency that I noted between his presentation and yours was your statement that people need NO carbohydrates - I found his take on this significantly different from yours, as he vehemently professed the need for phytonutrients. The ONLY source I know of, besides supplements, is from complex carbs, specifically the more brightly colored plant foods, yeah, yeah, that does include SOME fruits (there's that ol' glycemic index thing to watch).


I wish I could have seen that show with Dr. Atkins. Glad you enjoyed it. He's not some kook like many make him out to be. His ideas are just different than the mainstream. Anyway, back to carbohydrates. I did say you need NO carbohydrates (the sugars and starches and fibers) since it is scientific fact that there is no essential carbohydrate (unlike fats and proteins). I never said you didn't need vitamins and minerals from plants though (phytonutrients). Carbohydrates and phytonutrients are different things, they just come packaged together by Mother Nature. The good thing is that those plants highest in phytonutrients are also typically the lowest in digestible carbohydrate (sugar and starch) and highest in fiber. Neat how that works out huh? Unfortunately, they don't always taste the best. I guess we can't have everything.

Alan

Originally posted by arkie6:
....Why less protein? Less than 45 grams per day?....

OOOOOOOooooooops! result of my typing not following through with my thought process. I really meant proportionally, not the gram amounts listed in his post. sorry, to be so unclear. The ratio of fats to protein, i believe we need a higher proportion of fats than proteins. And actually, i could be way off base in terms of his proportions. I don't do math worth a squat http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/dizzy.gif

Originally posted by arkie6:
[BI wish I could have seen that show with Dr. Atkins. Glad you enjoyed it. He's not some kook like many make him out to be. His ideas are just different than the mainstream....Alan[/B]

Maybe call (or email) your local PBS and ask if they are going to air it. He was featured with another man. His last name was Goldberg, and seems he's an author or activist, I don't recall. PBS.org would probably have info. I saw it San Francisco's PBS station KQED. You could even check their site (KQED.org, i think).

ciao, thanks for responding



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Copper
Let Miracles Replace all Grievances

Copper, I agree that in the ratio of macronutrients consumed, fats should be a higher percentage than protein, but in terms of calories, not grams. Since 1 gram of fat contains 9 calories and 1 gram of protein contains 4 calories, you can actually eat twice as much protein as fat in grams and still have more calories from fat. As an example, say I eat 50 grams of carbohydrate, 200 grams of protein, and 100 grams of fat today. Thats 200 calories of carbs, 800 calories of protein, and 900 calories of fat (1900 calories total). Percentage wise, that's 11% carbohydrate, 42% protein, and 47% fat.

As you can see from my example above, by cutting way back on the carbs, it is also easy to cut way back on your total calorie intake. 200 grams of protein is quite a bit. About 28 ounces of meat contains 200 grams of protein (approx 7 grams protein per ounce of meat). And studies have shown that people can lose more weight and more fat on a 1800 calorie low carb diet than on a 1500 calorie low fat high carb diet. The total weight lost between the two diets wasn't that much different, but on the low carb diet, about 80% of that lost was fat vs. just 40% fat loss on the high carb diet.

Alan

Hi --I am very new to dieting but I was DX with Hyperinsulinemia using blood work up. The Doctor gave me a 3 page PLAN--eat high protien and very low carbs.
I have been trying to figure out what to eat at different meals for about a week. I am older with some GI problems like GERD and IBS.And, the info here has been helpful.

My total Cholesterol is 144,HDL 34 and trigl. 194.
I have been reading this board for several days. There is alot of good info here but I think somebody should start an Infomation Archive topic so article can be posted like the one Alan posted and the good sound information written here does not get lost and is not so difficult to locate.
Thanks---Harry http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/dance.gif