FATNANA
08-18-2005, 02:52 PM
Why on earth would a pain mgmt. clinic still treat a patient with sr morphine, no less after an attempted suicide?
My husband was just released from the hospital after an attempt at taking his life, by ingesting all of the oxy's he had left. Roughly 150 mgs, I think. All he did was mess himself up but good. Kidneys, liver, memory, and some serious hospital & pysch hospital bills.
I can't for the life of me understand why someone would still dispense narcotics to a patient in this condition.
The depression of pending divorce, (which could have been postponed or possibly eliminated with some counseling on the drug dependency issue) the thought of financial ruin, real or imagined, and the lonliness of drug addiction WITH THE DOCTOR'S PERMISSION...is still addiction !!!!!
Any feedback, I need help to understand this !
My husband was just released from the hospital after an attempt at taking his life, by ingesting all of the oxy's he had left. Roughly 150 mgs, I think. All he did was mess himself up but good. Kidneys, liver, memory, and some serious hospital & pysch hospital bills.
I can't for the life of me understand why someone would still dispense narcotics to a patient in this condition.
The depression of pending divorce, (which could have been postponed or possibly eliminated with some counseling on the drug dependency issue) the thought of financial ruin, real or imagined, and the lonliness of drug addiction WITH THE DOCTOR'S PERMISSION...is still addiction !!!!!
Any feedback, I need help to understand this !
Sponsor
mshatch
08-18-2005, 03:56 PM
Hi Fatnana
First I am sorry to hear about your troubles I hope that things eventually turn around for you both. What I did want to say is that unfortunetly for your husband people who arent in pain dont get what actually is going through his mind. I among alot of friends I know with chronic pain go through awful deppression and even thoughs of suicide. Its just a fact of life for those of us who suffer because sometimes we dont feel like there is a way out and that nobody understands us and no matter what we say or do can can make a person understand. Alot of people look at those of us in chronic pain and unfortunately label us as addicts. Most of us arent. We have list and list of things that are wrong with our bodies but people just cant see why we have so much pain. Thing is only those of us in pain can REALLY understand what each other goes through. If you are not a chronic pain sufferer it will be almost impossible for you to understand and it takes a very patient and loving person to even try to understand. My husband puts up with my pain management but he really doesnt get it. Its just so hard sometimes when the people you love most dont understand you and cant help you. I yet know on the other hand its equally hard for you to understand him or why a doctor would continue his medication. I have seen that happen before but I cant comment on it wothout knowing if he was sent for counseling or at least to a dr who could help him overcome his depression. Its a real hard subject to get into I guess. Pain management is something alot of us NEED. I know I couldnt go without it or I would suffer miserably. I know it must be a hard time for you right now but my advice would be to just try and have some compassion even if you feel like your past that point. Alot of us in your husbands place only want love and a little compassion and sometimes we feel so alone because nobody seems to understand us. Sometimes we feel like the only thing we have is our meds and sometimes it get to a point where we feel like our meds are our best friends cause they help us. Now when you get to a point where he is I really cant give to much advice about that. My heart really feels for your situation because I know the struggles of being in pain. I hope that even one sentence I have written helps you in some way and i am sorry if I went on and on. I am also again feeling very hurt for your situation because its such a hard one to be in. I hope you will keep us all up to date on how things go.
Mshatch
First I am sorry to hear about your troubles I hope that things eventually turn around for you both. What I did want to say is that unfortunetly for your husband people who arent in pain dont get what actually is going through his mind. I among alot of friends I know with chronic pain go through awful deppression and even thoughs of suicide. Its just a fact of life for those of us who suffer because sometimes we dont feel like there is a way out and that nobody understands us and no matter what we say or do can can make a person understand. Alot of people look at those of us in chronic pain and unfortunately label us as addicts. Most of us arent. We have list and list of things that are wrong with our bodies but people just cant see why we have so much pain. Thing is only those of us in pain can REALLY understand what each other goes through. If you are not a chronic pain sufferer it will be almost impossible for you to understand and it takes a very patient and loving person to even try to understand. My husband puts up with my pain management but he really doesnt get it. Its just so hard sometimes when the people you love most dont understand you and cant help you. I yet know on the other hand its equally hard for you to understand him or why a doctor would continue his medication. I have seen that happen before but I cant comment on it wothout knowing if he was sent for counseling or at least to a dr who could help him overcome his depression. Its a real hard subject to get into I guess. Pain management is something alot of us NEED. I know I couldnt go without it or I would suffer miserably. I know it must be a hard time for you right now but my advice would be to just try and have some compassion even if you feel like your past that point. Alot of us in your husbands place only want love and a little compassion and sometimes we feel so alone because nobody seems to understand us. Sometimes we feel like the only thing we have is our meds and sometimes it get to a point where we feel like our meds are our best friends cause they help us. Now when you get to a point where he is I really cant give to much advice about that. My heart really feels for your situation because I know the struggles of being in pain. I hope that even one sentence I have written helps you in some way and i am sorry if I went on and on. I am also again feeling very hurt for your situation because its such a hard one to be in. I hope you will keep us all up to date on how things go.
Mshatch
Shoreline
08-19-2005, 09:11 AM
Fatnana, All I see is your point of veiw, You havn't mentioned a single instance of abuse other than the suicide attempt. Unless you have lived with intractable disabling pain and and your choice is medication or being bed ridden, I would take the meds knowing that everyone that uses long acting opiates becomes dpendent. Have you taken the time to learn the difference between dependence and addiction? Dependnece is a phsyiological response to using certan meds, not just opiates, addiction is destructive, if meds improve quality of life I have yet to meet a single addict that can say his addiction improved their quality of life.
I'm sure he's sorry that he hasn't lived up to your expectation of being cured and returning to a normal life by now, I'm sure he's sory his life didn't turn out the way he had hoped or planned. I'm sorry you felt that counseling for him would have made it posble to face each and every day for the rest of his life living with pain and no end in sight a cure of some kind. Did you get counseling for yourself or participate in any of his pain management? I'm sorry you think everyone that takes opiates to manage pain that hasn't responded to surgery and the god awful procedures many of us endure.
You can't liken the pain experience of child birth or some surgery you might have had that was succesful to living with the worst pain you have ever experienced that never ends. Without any instances of abuse, all we know is another CP patient attempted to take their life when they couldn't face living anoyther 20 , 30 or 40 years of pain that prevents a person from doing anything they ever enjoyed in the past and crushed any dreams for the future.
I'm sorry the one person he thought would understand planned on leaving him because he couldn't live up to your expectations of how he should deal with pain you haven't expereinced.
It's natural for people to have the expectation for others to recover from injuries or surgeries in a timely manner and have no continued symptoms. I have had 3 spinal surgeries, all deemed for the first two years as a succes by the surgeon, right up untill the hardware starting snapping, toggling in the holes they put lag bolts into. These people live with crunching and squeeking and crushing pain with every step. Not to mention neve pain that flat out doen't repond nearly as well with any form of treatment.
The real shame is when the spouse belives the doc when he says surgery is a succes or they can't possibly be in as much pain as what they see in some diagnostic test. Pain doesn't show in an MRI, Xray, CT scan, PET scan or any other diagnostc test.
Imagine the worst pain you might have experiencd, perhaps child birth or post op pain, then imagine that pain never ending. This is why the CP popultion is 700 times more lkely to take there own life rather than face a life of increasing pain and decreasing support from the one person that vowed to be there through thick and thin, good and bad, sickness and health and for ricjeher or poorer.
All that said, of course there are people that abuse their meds, of course their are people with true chronic pain that abuse their meds, but to discontinue all pain treatment because the pain and emotional pain of loosng every hope and dream they had won't be cured by sending them home to spend the rest of their life bed ridden. Your obviously not going to stay and care for him if they stop all treatment. Who is?
You have a choice to walk away and never deal with pain again. He doesn't.
Good luck with your new life. Dave
I'm sure he's sorry that he hasn't lived up to your expectation of being cured and returning to a normal life by now, I'm sure he's sory his life didn't turn out the way he had hoped or planned. I'm sorry you felt that counseling for him would have made it posble to face each and every day for the rest of his life living with pain and no end in sight a cure of some kind. Did you get counseling for yourself or participate in any of his pain management? I'm sorry you think everyone that takes opiates to manage pain that hasn't responded to surgery and the god awful procedures many of us endure.
You can't liken the pain experience of child birth or some surgery you might have had that was succesful to living with the worst pain you have ever experienced that never ends. Without any instances of abuse, all we know is another CP patient attempted to take their life when they couldn't face living anoyther 20 , 30 or 40 years of pain that prevents a person from doing anything they ever enjoyed in the past and crushed any dreams for the future.
I'm sorry the one person he thought would understand planned on leaving him because he couldn't live up to your expectations of how he should deal with pain you haven't expereinced.
It's natural for people to have the expectation for others to recover from injuries or surgeries in a timely manner and have no continued symptoms. I have had 3 spinal surgeries, all deemed for the first two years as a succes by the surgeon, right up untill the hardware starting snapping, toggling in the holes they put lag bolts into. These people live with crunching and squeeking and crushing pain with every step. Not to mention neve pain that flat out doen't repond nearly as well with any form of treatment.
The real shame is when the spouse belives the doc when he says surgery is a succes or they can't possibly be in as much pain as what they see in some diagnostic test. Pain doesn't show in an MRI, Xray, CT scan, PET scan or any other diagnostc test.
Imagine the worst pain you might have experiencd, perhaps child birth or post op pain, then imagine that pain never ending. This is why the CP popultion is 700 times more lkely to take there own life rather than face a life of increasing pain and decreasing support from the one person that vowed to be there through thick and thin, good and bad, sickness and health and for ricjeher or poorer.
All that said, of course there are people that abuse their meds, of course their are people with true chronic pain that abuse their meds, but to discontinue all pain treatment because the pain and emotional pain of loosng every hope and dream they had won't be cured by sending them home to spend the rest of their life bed ridden. Your obviously not going to stay and care for him if they stop all treatment. Who is?
You have a choice to walk away and never deal with pain again. He doesn't.
Good luck with your new life. Dave
feelbad
08-19-2005, 11:05 AM
I just wanted to offer this to you.although i am certain that there was alot more to this whole story that we just don't know about,i just wanted to offer you a possible answer to your main question as to 'why a PM would continue to Rx strong meds to a suicidal patient".In my experience in dealing with my own pain and also doing crisis for our counties system for many years, I just wanted to tell you this.from a suicide standpoint, there are quite possibly millions of reasons that a person would attempt to take their own life.financial,emotional,relationship issues and being in constant agony every single day of your life with no hope for relief in site.and there is probably just as many ways that a person could possibly use to try and complete the act.The only 'real" way to try and prevent any sort of suicide attempt would to be in a mental health facility restrained to your bed.Honestly.i really do think that your husbands PM sees him for what he is here,a patient that is suffering from what must be some pretty severe pain.now, some PMs would just be as likely to have kicked his butt out the door forever as he did break his PM contract in quite a few different ways.But this doc sounds like he knows what he is doing here much more than most PMs do,really.just because he attempted suicide(as mentioned above, something that many unfortunate souls like us can possibly do when the pain is so totally enveloping and overpowering) Does in no way mean that he is no longer suffering from that same pain.many many chronic pain patients develop some pretty severe depression over time.i did.and am also seeing a good therepist and am on anti depressants to try and help myself deal with it.but that does not mean that i am safe from the thoughts.i haven't attempted it but who knows?given the right circumstances just about anyone you know might be subject to that feeling of overwhelming depression and the desperation that comes with feeling like you are trapped with no way out BUT that.suicide is the ultimate act of a very desperate person used to try and relieve what they percieve to be overwhelming suffering in some form.
your husband needs help not scorn right now.trust me here when i say that just by having the ms in his posession will not sway his mind either way with regard to trying to take his life this way a second time.For the most part, THAT way did not actually work now did it?considering the method he used, and this is just strictly my opinion combined with the experience i have had at talking to suicidal people before and after attempts were made, that his level of seriousness about actually wanting a completed act outcome,were most likely not high in that regard.this method is actually the number one used by people who have not been in a 'suicidal ideation"mindset for a long period of time.it is more of a spontaneous attempt that hit them rather suddenly.but this in no way means that he is not thinking about more possible attempts in possibly a different way.He really really needs to talk this all out with a professional and be treated for this attempt and the triggers behind it.he needs to come to an understanding of where his head was at when that thought hit him that taking the rest of his pills would be the best thing for him,or this could very well happen once again.people who have actually gone as far as your husband has have a much higher risk of trying it again.it all depends on many different factors.but the method he chooses,if there even IS a next time may make it possible for him to actually complete the act.he needs to find an "anchor".In my case, mine is my children.i could never ever leave them with the horror and the stigma of having to deal with the aftermath of suicide.unfortunetly I have friends from high school who did this and others since then and i can tell you, what comes after the death is something i would not want to place on anyone.
this entire situation is made much more difficult due to your current circumstances,but in order for him to be able to handle everything that he is currently dealing with, you are going to have to try and get into his head and find out just where he is at with everything.i would not recommend proceding to doing anything really major at this point in time til you know that he is somewhat back on track.sometimes suicide attempts(more often just a 'threat" of doing harm) are used as emotional blackmail,but statisticly,most are not.but given the fact they he just did not talk about it as a threat but actually took the pills and luckily,landed him in the hospital with a tube down his nose,shows that he was indeed serious.just make sure that he is seeing all the right people for any treatments.if possible, if he would let you come with him to some appointments so he knows that at least you care about his mental health and this would also let you know kind of his current thoughts and what his biggest desperation triggers are.if you two have children, i would very strongly encourge you to play up his relationship with them and how much they would lose if he was not there for them.He really needs to be able to find something 'solid' and good in his life right now to keep him anchored in this life.just keep an eye on him for now.Try not worry about his current med situation.Believe me, if his thoughts really start to turn towards another attempt,like i said before, he WILL find some way and it most likely will not involve those meds again.I would do a little research on suicide ideation and the stages of it it.you need to try and understand just what his thought processes currently are and all of the possible risks involved.you will also learn what not to say to someone who has attempted suicide.i really do wish both of you luck and am hoping that things will somehow work out in the best way for everyone involved.Try not to be too judgemental as I am sure he is already beating himself up over what he did and the effects that it has had on his already bad health.hang in there,Marcia
your husband needs help not scorn right now.trust me here when i say that just by having the ms in his posession will not sway his mind either way with regard to trying to take his life this way a second time.For the most part, THAT way did not actually work now did it?considering the method he used, and this is just strictly my opinion combined with the experience i have had at talking to suicidal people before and after attempts were made, that his level of seriousness about actually wanting a completed act outcome,were most likely not high in that regard.this method is actually the number one used by people who have not been in a 'suicidal ideation"mindset for a long period of time.it is more of a spontaneous attempt that hit them rather suddenly.but this in no way means that he is not thinking about more possible attempts in possibly a different way.He really really needs to talk this all out with a professional and be treated for this attempt and the triggers behind it.he needs to come to an understanding of where his head was at when that thought hit him that taking the rest of his pills would be the best thing for him,or this could very well happen once again.people who have actually gone as far as your husband has have a much higher risk of trying it again.it all depends on many different factors.but the method he chooses,if there even IS a next time may make it possible for him to actually complete the act.he needs to find an "anchor".In my case, mine is my children.i could never ever leave them with the horror and the stigma of having to deal with the aftermath of suicide.unfortunetly I have friends from high school who did this and others since then and i can tell you, what comes after the death is something i would not want to place on anyone.
this entire situation is made much more difficult due to your current circumstances,but in order for him to be able to handle everything that he is currently dealing with, you are going to have to try and get into his head and find out just where he is at with everything.i would not recommend proceding to doing anything really major at this point in time til you know that he is somewhat back on track.sometimes suicide attempts(more often just a 'threat" of doing harm) are used as emotional blackmail,but statisticly,most are not.but given the fact they he just did not talk about it as a threat but actually took the pills and luckily,landed him in the hospital with a tube down his nose,shows that he was indeed serious.just make sure that he is seeing all the right people for any treatments.if possible, if he would let you come with him to some appointments so he knows that at least you care about his mental health and this would also let you know kind of his current thoughts and what his biggest desperation triggers are.if you two have children, i would very strongly encourge you to play up his relationship with them and how much they would lose if he was not there for them.He really needs to be able to find something 'solid' and good in his life right now to keep him anchored in this life.just keep an eye on him for now.Try not worry about his current med situation.Believe me, if his thoughts really start to turn towards another attempt,like i said before, he WILL find some way and it most likely will not involve those meds again.I would do a little research on suicide ideation and the stages of it it.you need to try and understand just what his thought processes currently are and all of the possible risks involved.you will also learn what not to say to someone who has attempted suicide.i really do wish both of you luck and am hoping that things will somehow work out in the best way for everyone involved.Try not to be too judgemental as I am sure he is already beating himself up over what he did and the effects that it has had on his already bad health.hang in there,Marcia
Chaswick
08-19-2005, 04:39 PM
At the risk of sounding like I'm jumping on the bandwagon, I think that right now, your husband is the one that needs some help. You have heard what it is like dealing with a life sentence of terrible pain.
Now what you are suggesting is that they stop giving him anything to take the level of his pain down a couple of notches (because the pain is ALWAYS THERE).
When someone that is dependant on pain meds. and taking them for their chronic pain stops taking them all of a sudden, two things happen. His chronic pain gets much much worse than it ever was (they call it 'brightening') and he will be thrown into terrible withdrawals. I don't know what dose he was on but whatever the dose his withdrawal would be either really bad or gawdawful.
I really hope that you will take some time and try to understand more of what your husband is going through. He is at a time in his life that he needs the person who is the most important person in his life to be there to support him. Yes, you are right that Dr.'s do have addicts that fool them into prescribing pain meds. to them. But they are the exception.
Chaz
Now what you are suggesting is that they stop giving him anything to take the level of his pain down a couple of notches (because the pain is ALWAYS THERE).
When someone that is dependant on pain meds. and taking them for their chronic pain stops taking them all of a sudden, two things happen. His chronic pain gets much much worse than it ever was (they call it 'brightening') and he will be thrown into terrible withdrawals. I don't know what dose he was on but whatever the dose his withdrawal would be either really bad or gawdawful.
I really hope that you will take some time and try to understand more of what your husband is going through. He is at a time in his life that he needs the person who is the most important person in his life to be there to support him. Yes, you are right that Dr.'s do have addicts that fool them into prescribing pain meds. to them. But they are the exception.
Chaz
FATNANA
08-19-2005, 04:46 PM
This is a man who got sober from alcohol 15 years ago. He also is a child of the 60's when the motto was "mello is good, jello is better.
I am not looking for you to defend him or yourself ...Just not sure is this is legal !!! Maybe my lawyer can tell me.
I donated a kidney to my son last spring and had to hide my percocet from him. I have a 9 inch scar and had a rib removed. I dumped the percocet after 1 week. Down the toilet because in his words " give them to me, you don't need them." HMMMMM. ADDICT ! So I guess I am on the wrong board. All you folks want to do is defend your right to be painfree. Which was never my argument. THE CLINIC still dispensing meds without a MH followup was my main concern.
I am not looking for you to defend him or yourself ...Just not sure is this is legal !!! Maybe my lawyer can tell me.
I donated a kidney to my son last spring and had to hide my percocet from him. I have a 9 inch scar and had a rib removed. I dumped the percocet after 1 week. Down the toilet because in his words " give them to me, you don't need them." HMMMMM. ADDICT ! So I guess I am on the wrong board. All you folks want to do is defend your right to be painfree. Which was never my argument. THE CLINIC still dispensing meds without a MH followup was my main concern.
FATNANA
08-19-2005, 05:12 PM
I am not in any way trying to be a heartless "B". I am sure his pain is real. What I am still hard pressed to understand is for the three weeks in the hospital, 2 days in ICU, withdrawing from the garbage, and dialysis treatments, no short term memory etc. I LOVE THIS MAN. I am no stranger to pain. I have PMR which is swelling and inflamation of ALL my joints. I am on 20 mg of prednisone. I am just wondering is all...Sorry if I have offended you. I am at a loss ...the loss of my husband, his family, my family, I am living in an apartment that I hate, my grandchildren miss him terrirbly but I just don't know if after all of this, we can ignore the things said by both sides of our blended families, (my fault, my daughters' fault, his daughter taking over as POA, taking matters into her own hands (that I was capable of ) SHe packed up the entire house...now he if he goes back there will have to unpack. She is a type A personality and went a tad overboard.
But whatever...sorry if I offended any of you.
But whatever...sorry if I offended any of you.
Chaswick
08-19-2005, 07:56 PM
You didn't offend me at all. You asked why in the world would they go on Rx'ing opioid medication to a chronic pain patient that tried to kill himself. I tried to answer you based on your first post.
I don't take daily pain meds. and I doubt very much that anyone who responded is trying to 'defend their right to be pain free'. Im glad that your drugs are making you pain free, but the vast majority of chronic pain patients aren't trying to be pain free as it is not a possibility.
How much would you even believe an answer on a question about what is legal or not that you got from a pain managment board? Or from any place on the internet? Your lawyer is a much better person to talk to about what is legal in your country/state/county etc..
I don't take daily pain meds. and I doubt very much that anyone who responded is trying to 'defend their right to be pain free'. Im glad that your drugs are making you pain free, but the vast majority of chronic pain patients aren't trying to be pain free as it is not a possibility.
How much would you even believe an answer on a question about what is legal or not that you got from a pain managment board? Or from any place on the internet? Your lawyer is a much better person to talk to about what is legal in your country/state/county etc..
feelbad
08-20-2005, 09:38 AM
Hi again. The responses you got i believe were directed mostly at your actual question as to WHY a PM would continue to Rx pain meds to someone who attempted suicide, not to an addict.I know that is what i responded to.The addiction was mentioned but that was not your actual question.But,adding a possible addiction to this already bad mix is a whole other story.He definitely needs to deal with the addiction aspect with a good treatment program counseling and working with his PM doc.if he is not living up to his contract with the PM for all intents and purposes he would normally be discharged,at least that is what would happen in my particular situation.Depending on just what is actually causing his ongoing pain would determine the best way of trying to keep at least some good control over the pain while keeping the actual narcotics to a bare minimum or possibly not at all.if he cannot actually show that he can control the strong narcotics he is currently on then he really needs this whole situation re evaluated.I am a recovering addict and was 'clean for many many years up til I suffered extreme spinal cord damage due to a surgery.I see a wonderful PM for my pain control and I am taking oxycontin among other meds as at this point and dealing with the agony of RSD and central pain syndrome, I really had no choice as nothing else would work for me.but I reallyy really had to give this some very deep thought before i went this route.My entire family knows my whole history and my primary and PM docs are totally aware as well.i am under very strict guidelines and follow them to a T. because if i do not, i am outta ther and will no longer be able to have any sort of control over my pain.i would just die as there would be no reason for me to continue on,really.i know I could not handle this all myself.SOOO, i adhere to my rules as set up by my PM.i am showing total compliance within all of my guidelines and never ever attempt to change what and how my meds a rxed for me.The difference between me and your husband right now is that i am in control and he is not.If I wasn't,i wouldn't have my meds when i need them.looking at this whole pic here, I too am suprised that this PM is continueing with the Rxing of his meds without trying something different that is non narcotic.the PM is actually setting himself up for some big big problems down the road.I am suprised that he would even take on this liability.I think what really bothers ME, personally here is that he is totally messing up the possibility of people like me to actually be able to see a PM and have the approprite amount and type of meds Rxed.this really makes those of us who had a history of a drug addiction problem who are totally working within the guidelines look bad and this can eventually end up with someone like me not being able to access the proper treatment for our pain.
This will also effect this PMs ability to care for his other patients when he loses his ability to Rx pain meds over something stupid that your husband may do while taking those Rxed meds from this doc.I really think that someione needs to point out to this doc all of the possible liability issues he could face here if he continues this.
what this all boils down to i guess is that everyone who is in pain deserves treatment.But that does not always include the right to use strong narcotics when you are showing such over the top non compliance with all of the strict guidelines that come with it.i am in compliance even given my history but i also know that this is my one and only chance to be able to do this.if I should screw things up, i lose this opportunity to actually have at least some good quality of life.Your husband 'should" be adhearing to this as well,but since he is not, his PM should be doing something about this.i would talk to your lawyer.Good luck,marcia
This will also effect this PMs ability to care for his other patients when he loses his ability to Rx pain meds over something stupid that your husband may do while taking those Rxed meds from this doc.I really think that someione needs to point out to this doc all of the possible liability issues he could face here if he continues this.
what this all boils down to i guess is that everyone who is in pain deserves treatment.But that does not always include the right to use strong narcotics when you are showing such over the top non compliance with all of the strict guidelines that come with it.i am in compliance even given my history but i also know that this is my one and only chance to be able to do this.if I should screw things up, i lose this opportunity to actually have at least some good quality of life.Your husband 'should" be adhearing to this as well,but since he is not, his PM should be doing something about this.i would talk to your lawyer.Good luck,marcia
Shoreline
08-20-2005, 11:04 AM
Hi Fantana, I'm sorry if yur felt attacked, Nobody doubts that your position is hard and rough and watching someomne you love suffer is something most can't do.
AS far as being sobor, how shoud they treat pain in a person that had a hhistory of addiction but has managed to stay sobor 15 years. The 70's was 30+ years ago, how long does he have to pay for the stigma of those times? Is he injecting oral meds, is he buying them from the streets. The fact you didn't need your pain meds a week after surgery is great for you, but reinforcees the idea that there is a cure for eveyone out there if they just made the right choice or had the right doc.
The jello days were decades ago, the alcohol was 15 years ago. Have you sought any treatment to allow yourself to let go of the pain he caused you then, or is this just a constant reminder of worse times that he had a choice about, but dosn't now. Sounds like these things are still very much a part of the way your see his situation, how many decades does he have to be sobor and be productve to realize it's not the 70's anymore.
My younger brother comitted suride due to pain and addiction matters, It rocked the entire family, I not only have deep regrets but also have anger that he's taken away the one alternative I had to escape the next 30 years of pain and disability after seeing and feeling the devestation of this act.
To send him home with no meds and no other options would surely be a death sentence, What exactly can your attorney do in this instance for him? If his drug abuse, non complinace, doc shopping, destructive behavior, and adiction led him to this act, Why didn't you fight to keep him in-patient, keepng him in a safe environment would have been the thing to do, not call your attoney. He won't do anything for your husband other than use this suicide attempt as a means to boost your claims in divorce court, the atorney will bring them up as a soon as you don't agree on who keeps the cat or any other minor disagreement. What exacatly do you expect your attorney to do for him, and how will your attorney help him with this knowledge? That's not his job. He will use this in your litigation to ensure all your demands are met.
Your right, all we hear is your side, and how you think your attorney is gong to help, who exactly? You have the mellow jello days, you have the alcoholism, which was all forgivable but something you have never let go of. Now you consider any form of medical treatment that may posibly include a buzz as some type of slip back into the days of abuse and addiction. Although it's wrong to share meds, you assumed his desire to use meds you no longer needed as an act of addiction, could it posibly be an act of desperation and pain that has never been controlled.
Exactly how much pain control should one be satisified with. Few docs shoot for 0 pain. 50% reduction is what most legit docs shot for and and the rest we learn to deal with. For some it means changes in lifestyle, in others in still means complete disability.
I have the best pain managament has to offer, an Intrathecal morphine pump. I can't adjust it or change the setting myself, I trust my docs will do their best. But a succesful pump is one that eleviates 50% of your pain. That still leaves an awful lot of pain to deal with, it still leavs me disabeld, there are still days where no matter what, I can't find any relief.
We lost 2/3rds of our income, lost our home, went BK and still struggle. I'm sorry things didn't turn out the way you had planned but I'm sure he is feeling the same only doesn't have the supoort of the general population that knows nothing about CP and the use of opiates and can label him an addict simply because he needs meds to function. How high do you think he gets from the same dose of meds after years of use. The buzz is the first thing that goes, after that it's simply pain relef.
Your going to do what you want to do, there is absolutely nothing preventng you from dong so. What control does your husbnand have over his life and future other than the imediate day to day survival with pain most can't imagine.
Slamming your hand in he car door hurts like hell, but most people can remove it, put ice on it and recover. Imagine slamming your hand in the car door and not beng able to remove it, then having docs tell you it can't hurt that bad and your spouse agreeing.
If you haven't forgotton his words from 40 years ago about the melow jello days, how long can it be held over his head. You are probably doing him a favor because you have set things up so that he can't possibly live up to your expectations if there is any legitamacy to his claim of pain. It's pretty sad you haven't forgotten a few words spoken 40 years ago and most likely remind him of those words often enough because you have never moved past what was done a lifetime ago. IT was obviuously exeptable at the time, but I imgaine you always remianed in control.
Don't fool yourself into thinking your divorce attorney is going to do a damn thing for your husband other than use this against hin when it comes time for litigation.
Your right, a PM forum is not the place to find suport for leaving your spouse when you have always had the choice to pack it in when it got too tough, unfortunately you just saw your husbands only choice and want to turn the info over to your attorney for aditional ammo should he not comply with every demand. :rolleyes:
I hope you find what your looking for and can some day let go of what was said and done 40 years ago.
Dave
AS far as being sobor, how shoud they treat pain in a person that had a hhistory of addiction but has managed to stay sobor 15 years. The 70's was 30+ years ago, how long does he have to pay for the stigma of those times? Is he injecting oral meds, is he buying them from the streets. The fact you didn't need your pain meds a week after surgery is great for you, but reinforcees the idea that there is a cure for eveyone out there if they just made the right choice or had the right doc.
The jello days were decades ago, the alcohol was 15 years ago. Have you sought any treatment to allow yourself to let go of the pain he caused you then, or is this just a constant reminder of worse times that he had a choice about, but dosn't now. Sounds like these things are still very much a part of the way your see his situation, how many decades does he have to be sobor and be productve to realize it's not the 70's anymore.
My younger brother comitted suride due to pain and addiction matters, It rocked the entire family, I not only have deep regrets but also have anger that he's taken away the one alternative I had to escape the next 30 years of pain and disability after seeing and feeling the devestation of this act.
To send him home with no meds and no other options would surely be a death sentence, What exactly can your attorney do in this instance for him? If his drug abuse, non complinace, doc shopping, destructive behavior, and adiction led him to this act, Why didn't you fight to keep him in-patient, keepng him in a safe environment would have been the thing to do, not call your attoney. He won't do anything for your husband other than use this suicide attempt as a means to boost your claims in divorce court, the atorney will bring them up as a soon as you don't agree on who keeps the cat or any other minor disagreement. What exacatly do you expect your attorney to do for him, and how will your attorney help him with this knowledge? That's not his job. He will use this in your litigation to ensure all your demands are met.
Your right, all we hear is your side, and how you think your attorney is gong to help, who exactly? You have the mellow jello days, you have the alcoholism, which was all forgivable but something you have never let go of. Now you consider any form of medical treatment that may posibly include a buzz as some type of slip back into the days of abuse and addiction. Although it's wrong to share meds, you assumed his desire to use meds you no longer needed as an act of addiction, could it posibly be an act of desperation and pain that has never been controlled.
Exactly how much pain control should one be satisified with. Few docs shoot for 0 pain. 50% reduction is what most legit docs shot for and and the rest we learn to deal with. For some it means changes in lifestyle, in others in still means complete disability.
I have the best pain managament has to offer, an Intrathecal morphine pump. I can't adjust it or change the setting myself, I trust my docs will do their best. But a succesful pump is one that eleviates 50% of your pain. That still leaves an awful lot of pain to deal with, it still leavs me disabeld, there are still days where no matter what, I can't find any relief.
We lost 2/3rds of our income, lost our home, went BK and still struggle. I'm sorry things didn't turn out the way you had planned but I'm sure he is feeling the same only doesn't have the supoort of the general population that knows nothing about CP and the use of opiates and can label him an addict simply because he needs meds to function. How high do you think he gets from the same dose of meds after years of use. The buzz is the first thing that goes, after that it's simply pain relef.
Your going to do what you want to do, there is absolutely nothing preventng you from dong so. What control does your husbnand have over his life and future other than the imediate day to day survival with pain most can't imagine.
Slamming your hand in he car door hurts like hell, but most people can remove it, put ice on it and recover. Imagine slamming your hand in the car door and not beng able to remove it, then having docs tell you it can't hurt that bad and your spouse agreeing.
If you haven't forgotton his words from 40 years ago about the melow jello days, how long can it be held over his head. You are probably doing him a favor because you have set things up so that he can't possibly live up to your expectations if there is any legitamacy to his claim of pain. It's pretty sad you haven't forgotten a few words spoken 40 years ago and most likely remind him of those words often enough because you have never moved past what was done a lifetime ago. IT was obviuously exeptable at the time, but I imgaine you always remianed in control.
Don't fool yourself into thinking your divorce attorney is going to do a damn thing for your husband other than use this against hin when it comes time for litigation.
Your right, a PM forum is not the place to find suport for leaving your spouse when you have always had the choice to pack it in when it got too tough, unfortunately you just saw your husbands only choice and want to turn the info over to your attorney for aditional ammo should he not comply with every demand. :rolleyes:
I hope you find what your looking for and can some day let go of what was said and done 40 years ago.
Dave
VA-GAL
08-20-2005, 03:47 PM
I am not sure if you are familiar with the term pseudo-addiction, in pain management. What that means is that to regular people and even to docs, the person in pain is acting like an addict. They seem to be preoccupied with thoughts of medications, using other people's medications, using several docs to get meds, and things like that. But what it really boils down to is that they are not getting adequate pain relief from the medication they are on. IF they were to get adequate pain relief, all that behavior would immediately stop and they would become the most compliant patient a doc would ever hope for. Before I found my present pain doc, my old doc treated me like I was a drug addict and wrote a letter of referral to another doc stating I "needed significant narcotics for pain". At the time all I was taking was 2 vicodin a day. It was not covering my pain by a long shot but for the doc, that was way too much medication. But I was showing the so-called abherrant drug use behavior, because I was so undermedicated. I thought about suicide all the time back then because there seemed to be no end in sight of the agony I was in every day. When I finally found a doc to treat me adequately, all that behavior stopped and so did my thoughts of suicide.
BTW, I too am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict and was clean for 14 years before I became a CPer. I do not get high off of these meds. When you are on a long acting med, the serum level remains even, you don't get the high like when you are constantly popping higher and higher amounts. My doc is well aware of my past addiction and is still willing to treat me with narcotics. Just because of my past does not mean I should have to be condemned to a life of pain and suffering. Sobriety is much more than what is running around in your blood stream, it is a way of thinking and a way of behaving and living ones life. I am not running around chasing drugs, draining my family's bank account, stealing drugs out of my neighbors medicine cabinets or any of the stuff I used to do. That is addiction. But if I were to stop my medication abuptly I would go into withdrawal. That is dependency. Big difference.
Cut your hubby some slack. He needs support right now.
VA-GAL
BTW, I too am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict and was clean for 14 years before I became a CPer. I do not get high off of these meds. When you are on a long acting med, the serum level remains even, you don't get the high like when you are constantly popping higher and higher amounts. My doc is well aware of my past addiction and is still willing to treat me with narcotics. Just because of my past does not mean I should have to be condemned to a life of pain and suffering. Sobriety is much more than what is running around in your blood stream, it is a way of thinking and a way of behaving and living ones life. I am not running around chasing drugs, draining my family's bank account, stealing drugs out of my neighbors medicine cabinets or any of the stuff I used to do. That is addiction. But if I were to stop my medication abuptly I would go into withdrawal. That is dependency. Big difference.
Cut your hubby some slack. He needs support right now.
VA-GAL
feelbad
08-21-2005, 09:32 AM
FATNANA, i think the problem that we are having here is mostly due to the fact that you really have not mentioned any sort of 'addiction indicators" other than the suicide attempt which basically shows lack of compliance with his PM contract but not really an actual indicator of a possible addiction,Do you know what I mean?and him asking for your left over percs could be that he actually needed them for his pain and that as long as you were not going to be using them,figured he could use them as break thru meds.Not really an addiction indicator either.realisticly,what do you 'feel" are his actual indicators that he is actually feeding an addiction as opposed to taking his meds for legitimate pain issues?i really am trying to help you sort this all out i just need some info on why you think he has an actual addiction thats all.sometimes there is a very fine line between what is an "actual" addiction and what 'appears" to be an addiction.Trust me on that one.i have a family member who swears that I am addicted to my pain meds just because I am "on" them.and given my past history from 16 years ago,her mindset has never really changed.despite the fact that my PM and all of my other treating docs know that i am in total compliance this family member will probably never ever change her mind.i am not showing any of those signs of an active addiction that i displayed way back when when I indeed was in the middle of a bad one to vicodin.But she refuses to believe that i am not in that 'mindset" she has been sober for over 25 years and thinks she is an authority now on every possible addiction issue.i really don't give a rats a** what her feelings are as the rest of my family thinks i am doing great with all aspects of having to take narcotics,as well as my primary and my PM.so frankly it is not an issue.But it did bother me for a long time there for awhile.She has never even had to have a root canal or any other extremely painful thing done or even had a major injury so she really has no clue as to what even having any sort of "real" pain to have to deal with,so she has absolutely no clue as to what my extremely severe pain feels like.if only she could spend one day in my shoes she would be curled up in the fetal position whimpering in a corner somewhere wishing to die.but i digress.please help us all out here by telling of the reasons you feel your hubby is addicted vs treating severe pain.Thanks,Marcia