linus#1
07-08-2002, 02:33 PM
What is it about soy? Just high in Protein?
Sponsor
Nancy S+13
07-08-2002, 04:11 PM
I think a lot of the fuss is about the phytoestrogens it contains. Supposedly good for menopausal women.
arkie6
07-09-2002, 01:15 AM
Here is the lowdown on soy: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_alert.html
Alan
Alan
linus#1
07-09-2002, 09:56 AM
Arkie - Damn, that was negative...
arkie6
07-09-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by linus#1:
Arkie - Damn, that was negative...
That's not all. There is much more negative information regarding soy here: http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000609_soyfdaletter_feature.html and here: http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
Unfermented soy is not healthy in opinion, especially in the quanitities being recommended today by various quasi-health authorities and the makers of soy based processed foods. Soy is no substitute for meat, eggs, and dairy.
Alan
Arkie - Damn, that was negative...
That's not all. There is much more negative information regarding soy here: http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000609_soyfdaletter_feature.html and here: http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
Unfermented soy is not healthy in opinion, especially in the quanitities being recommended today by various quasi-health authorities and the makers of soy based processed foods. Soy is no substitute for meat, eggs, and dairy.
Alan
auntjudyg
07-09-2002, 11:47 AM
Just to add another voice from the skeptical-about-soy camp. I now eat only the fermented forms of soy - tempeh and miso.
Magpiezoe
07-09-2002, 12:20 PM
Hello, Cool. I know there's controversey over soy formula too. A lot of doctors and pediatricians do not recommend soy formula over regular formula. (I'm not talking about breast milk...Everyone knows breast milk is best.) I wonder if it has something to do with the type of soy products or how they are used? China and Japan eat a lot of soy, so we're talking about over 1/3 of the earth's population. The thing is that their soy preparation is different from ours. There are no soy burgers, but there are different types of dried and fresh tofu. They cook it, drink it, and even snack on it. I have noticed that they never eat soy beans or tofu raw.
------------------
Magpie
------------------
Magpie
paper clip
07-09-2002, 08:14 PM
Magpie in the Far East and Orient consumption of soy in large quantities (in quantities larger than that as a food additive and flavoring agent) is a new thing, it is not something that has been done for very long.
LooneyJM
07-10-2002, 01:26 PM
Soy actually DOES offer dietary protein. Just like every other topic, you'll hear about 'experts' that say it's great and others say it's the kiss of death.
justink80
07-10-2002, 11:57 PM
Jim is correct.
Case in point: "The FDA has authorized use of health claims about the role of soy protein in reducing the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) on labeling of foods containing soy protein. This final rule is based on the FDA's conclusion that foods containing soy protein included in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels.
Recent clinical trials have shown that consumption of soy protein compared to other proteins such as those from milk or meat, can lower total and LDL-cholesterol levels."
Extensive ongoing research is investigating the link between soy and the reduction of the risk of cancer.
People tend to forget that scientists prefer to conduct research which produces ORIGINAL results -- and I believe that often this desire biases the studies.
------------------
They worship neither a god nor even a demon, but a dead man. -- Celsus
Case in point: "The FDA has authorized use of health claims about the role of soy protein in reducing the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) on labeling of foods containing soy protein. This final rule is based on the FDA's conclusion that foods containing soy protein included in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels.
Recent clinical trials have shown that consumption of soy protein compared to other proteins such as those from milk or meat, can lower total and LDL-cholesterol levels."
Extensive ongoing research is investigating the link between soy and the reduction of the risk of cancer.
People tend to forget that scientists prefer to conduct research which produces ORIGINAL results -- and I believe that often this desire biases the studies.
------------------
They worship neither a god nor even a demon, but a dead man. -- Celsus
paper clip
07-11-2002, 01:05 AM
Soy is an awful protein source. It lacks several amino acids and it is very high in enzymes that block protein absorption. Only when it is heavily processed is this enzyme destroyed...and with heavy processing several vital amino acids are destroyed. And while some of the studies are showing that some of the derivatives of soy may help reduce cholesterol, there are plenty more studies to show that soy can be harmful. Just because it may help reduce some people's cholesterol, does not mean it is automatically safe.
Here are a couple of research articles I found to show how safe soy is:
Van-Rensburg, et al. "Nutritional status of African populations predisposed to esophageal cancer" Nutrition and Cancer. V4 1983 pp.206-16....links between soy and esophagus cancer.
Moser, PB et al. "Copper, iron, zinc and selenium dietary intake and status of Nepalese lactating women and their breast-fed infants" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition V47 Apr 1988 pp7 29-34....links of soy to nutritional deficiencies.
Wallace, GM. "Studies on the processing and properties of soy" J-Sci-FD-Agric V22 Oct 1971 pp526-35....Study showing that commercial soy protein is less than ideal for human consumption and protein needs...establishes that the current use of soy as a useful protein was not formulated out of valid information, but solely out of hope.
Harland, et al. "Nutritional status and phytate: Zinc and phytate X calcium: Zinc dietary molar ratios of lacto-ovo-vegetarian Trappist Monks: ten years later" Journal of American Dietetic Association V88
Dec 1988 pp 1562-66...Soy contains large amounts of phytic acid.
Tiney, EL. "Proximate composition and mineral and phytate contents of legumes grown in Sudan" Journal of Food Composition and Analysis V2, 1989 pp67-78....mineral deficiencies and soy intake.
Ologhobo, et al. "Distribution of phosphorous and phytate in some Nigerian varieties of legumes and some effects of processing." Journal of Food Science V49(1)Jan/Feb 1984 pp199-201...mineral deficiencies and soy intake.
Sandstrom, et al. "Effect of protein level and protein source on zinc absorption in humans." Journal of Nutrition V119(1) Jan 1989 pp48-53...deficient zinc absorption in people consuming soy.
Tait, Susan. "The availability of minerals in food, with particular reference to iron." J-R-Soc Health V103(2)April 1983 pp 74-77...decreased absorption of minerals and soy intake.
Leviton, "Phytate reduction of zinc absorption" J-R-Soc-Health V103(2)April 1983 pp14-15....more zinc deficiencies with soy intake.
Mellanby, Edward. "Experimental rickets: The effect of cereals and their interaction with other factors of diet and environment in producing rickets" Medical Research Council V93 Mar 1925 pp2-65....rickets associated with soy consumption.
Wills, et al. "Phytic acid in nutritional rickets in immigrants" The Lancet April 8, 1972 pp771-73. –Soy associated with rickets (bone softening and deformation)....rickets in those who consume soy.
Burke. "Technology of production of edible flowers and protein products from soybeans" FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin 97 Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations 1992 p 85.... soy also contains carcinogens.
Rackis, JJ et al. "Quality of plant foods in human nutrition" V35 1985. p 232. Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition...soy may contain cancer causing materials.
Smith. "Soybeans chemistry and technology" Vol 1. Avi Publishing Co Inc. West Port CT 1972p.183....decreased thyroid or other gland function.
Jenkens, et al. "Nutritional assessment of twelve protein foods/ingredients " Nutritional Research V9(1)Jan 1989 pp 83-92....decreased thyroid function.
Wolfe, BM. "Elevation of VLDL cholesterol during substitution of soy protein for animal protein in diets of hypercholesteremic Canadians" Nutri-Rep-Int V32(5)Nov 1985 pp1057-65....Shows how soy did NOT lower cholesterol but rather increased it.
Katz "Food and bicultural evolution: A model for the investigation of modern nutritional problems" Nutritional Anthropology Alan R. Lic Inc. 1987 p.50...pancreas cancer link to soy consumption.
Robuck, et al. "Effects of dietary fats and soybean protein on pancreatic carcinogenesis" Cancer Research 1987 March 1;47(5):1333-8....soy and pancreas cancer.
Levy et al, "Effects of prenatal exposure to the soy phytoestrogen genistein on sexual differentiation" PSEBM 208, 60, 1995...soy diet and poor sexual development.
Lyn-Cook et al. "Methylation profile and amplification of protooncogenes (cancer causing) in rat pancreas induced with phytoestrogens" PSEBM 208, 116 1995...formation of carcinogens in pancreas of those consuming soy derivatives.
Petrakis et al. "Stimulatory influence of soy on breast secretion in pre-and post menopausal women" Cancer Epidemological Bio-Markers Preview 1996 Oct 5:10, 785-94...increased estrogen formation in the breast tissue.
Hilakivi-Clark, et al. "Maternal genistein exposure mimics the effects of estrogen on mammary gland development" Oncology Reports 1998 May/June 5(3)609-16....links soy intake with breast cancer.
Ishizuki, et al. "The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects" Endocrinology in Japan 1991 May 20 67:5, 622-9....damaging effect of soy protein on the thyroid gland.
Suzuki, et al. "Plasma free fatty acids, inhibitor of extra thyroidal conversion of T4-T3 and thyroid hormone binding inhibitor in patients with various non-thyroid illnesses. Endocrinology In Japan Oct 1992
39:5, 445-53....More evidence of bad news for the thyroid and soy intake.
Whitten, et al. "Potential adverse effects of phytoestrogens" Journal of Nutrition 1995 March 125:3...the name says it all.
Ganse, R. "Causes of food allergies" School Food Service Journal V40(4), May 1986 pp38-39...Soy has its own food allergy rating.
Obermeyer, et al. "Chemical studies of phytoestrogens in related compounds" Proc soc exp bio med 1995 Jan 208(1):6-12...Soy causes some food allergies.
Lonnerdal, B. et al, "The effect of individual components of soy formula and cows' formula on zinc bioavaibility," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition V. 40 Nov 1984, pp. 1064-1070....Study showing how even Cows milk is much better for a baby than soy, and that soy inhibits zinc uptake.
Atanassova N, McKinnell C, Turner KJ, Walker M, Fisher JS, Morley M, Millar MR, Groome NP, Sharpe RM "Comparative effects of neonatal exposure of male rats to potent and weak (environmental) estrogens on spermatogenesis at puberty and the relationship to adult testis size and fertility: evidence for stimulatory effects of low estrogen levels". Medical Research Council Human Reproductive Sciences Unit, Center for Reproductive Biology, Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom. Endocrinology 2000 Oct;141(10):3898-907..."the presence of soy in the diet has significant short-term (pubertal spermatogenesis) and long-term (body weight, testis size, FSH levels, and possibly mating) effects on males.…our finding that the continuous presence of soy in the diet retards spermatogenic development and results in lifelong alterations in body weight, testis weight and FSH levels does have significant implications for all studies of male reproductive development and function.”
Nagata C, Inaba S, Kawakami N, Kakizoe T, Shimizu H"Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men."Nutr Cancer 2000 36:1 14-8..."The cross-sectional relationships of soy product intake and serum testosterone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone-binding globulin, and dihydrotestosterone were examined in 69 Japanese men. Total and free testosterone concentrations were inversely correlated with soy product intake. Similar correlations were observed for these hormones with isoflavone intake from soy products. The data suggest that soy product intake may be associated with the endogenous hormone levels in Japanese men."
Juniewicz PE, Pallante Morell S, Moser A, Ewing LL "Identification of phytoestrogens in the urine of male dogs" J Steroid Biochem 1988 Dec 31:6 987-94 ..."It is becoming increasingly apparent that dietary factors may play a role in the etiology of hormone dependent neoplasias."
Setchell KD, Gosselin SJ, Welsh MB, Johnston JO, Balistreri WF, Kramer LW, Dresser BL, Tarr MJ "Dietary estrogens--a probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs" Gastroenterology 1987 Aug 93:2 225-33. "We conclude that the relatively high concentrations of phytoestrogens from soybean protein present in the commercial diet fed to captive cheetahs in North American zoos may be one of the major factors in the decline of fertility and in the etiology of liver disease in this species. The survival of the captive cheetah population could depend upon a simple change of diet by excluding exogenous estrogen."
Keung WM. "Dietary estrogenic isoflavones are potent inhibitors of beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase of P. testosteronii."Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24 215:3 1137-44 ..."These results suggest that isoflavones may exert some of their biological effects by modulating activities of enzymes that metabolize steroids critical to hormonal and/or neuronal functions. "
Still think it's safe to eat?
Here are a couple of research articles I found to show how safe soy is:
Van-Rensburg, et al. "Nutritional status of African populations predisposed to esophageal cancer" Nutrition and Cancer. V4 1983 pp.206-16....links between soy and esophagus cancer.
Moser, PB et al. "Copper, iron, zinc and selenium dietary intake and status of Nepalese lactating women and their breast-fed infants" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition V47 Apr 1988 pp7 29-34....links of soy to nutritional deficiencies.
Wallace, GM. "Studies on the processing and properties of soy" J-Sci-FD-Agric V22 Oct 1971 pp526-35....Study showing that commercial soy protein is less than ideal for human consumption and protein needs...establishes that the current use of soy as a useful protein was not formulated out of valid information, but solely out of hope.
Harland, et al. "Nutritional status and phytate: Zinc and phytate X calcium: Zinc dietary molar ratios of lacto-ovo-vegetarian Trappist Monks: ten years later" Journal of American Dietetic Association V88
Dec 1988 pp 1562-66...Soy contains large amounts of phytic acid.
Tiney, EL. "Proximate composition and mineral and phytate contents of legumes grown in Sudan" Journal of Food Composition and Analysis V2, 1989 pp67-78....mineral deficiencies and soy intake.
Ologhobo, et al. "Distribution of phosphorous and phytate in some Nigerian varieties of legumes and some effects of processing." Journal of Food Science V49(1)Jan/Feb 1984 pp199-201...mineral deficiencies and soy intake.
Sandstrom, et al. "Effect of protein level and protein source on zinc absorption in humans." Journal of Nutrition V119(1) Jan 1989 pp48-53...deficient zinc absorption in people consuming soy.
Tait, Susan. "The availability of minerals in food, with particular reference to iron." J-R-Soc Health V103(2)April 1983 pp 74-77...decreased absorption of minerals and soy intake.
Leviton, "Phytate reduction of zinc absorption" J-R-Soc-Health V103(2)April 1983 pp14-15....more zinc deficiencies with soy intake.
Mellanby, Edward. "Experimental rickets: The effect of cereals and their interaction with other factors of diet and environment in producing rickets" Medical Research Council V93 Mar 1925 pp2-65....rickets associated with soy consumption.
Wills, et al. "Phytic acid in nutritional rickets in immigrants" The Lancet April 8, 1972 pp771-73. –Soy associated with rickets (bone softening and deformation)....rickets in those who consume soy.
Burke. "Technology of production of edible flowers and protein products from soybeans" FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin 97 Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations 1992 p 85.... soy also contains carcinogens.
Rackis, JJ et al. "Quality of plant foods in human nutrition" V35 1985. p 232. Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition...soy may contain cancer causing materials.
Smith. "Soybeans chemistry and technology" Vol 1. Avi Publishing Co Inc. West Port CT 1972p.183....decreased thyroid or other gland function.
Jenkens, et al. "Nutritional assessment of twelve protein foods/ingredients " Nutritional Research V9(1)Jan 1989 pp 83-92....decreased thyroid function.
Wolfe, BM. "Elevation of VLDL cholesterol during substitution of soy protein for animal protein in diets of hypercholesteremic Canadians" Nutri-Rep-Int V32(5)Nov 1985 pp1057-65....Shows how soy did NOT lower cholesterol but rather increased it.
Katz "Food and bicultural evolution: A model for the investigation of modern nutritional problems" Nutritional Anthropology Alan R. Lic Inc. 1987 p.50...pancreas cancer link to soy consumption.
Robuck, et al. "Effects of dietary fats and soybean protein on pancreatic carcinogenesis" Cancer Research 1987 March 1;47(5):1333-8....soy and pancreas cancer.
Levy et al, "Effects of prenatal exposure to the soy phytoestrogen genistein on sexual differentiation" PSEBM 208, 60, 1995...soy diet and poor sexual development.
Lyn-Cook et al. "Methylation profile and amplification of protooncogenes (cancer causing) in rat pancreas induced with phytoestrogens" PSEBM 208, 116 1995...formation of carcinogens in pancreas of those consuming soy derivatives.
Petrakis et al. "Stimulatory influence of soy on breast secretion in pre-and post menopausal women" Cancer Epidemological Bio-Markers Preview 1996 Oct 5:10, 785-94...increased estrogen formation in the breast tissue.
Hilakivi-Clark, et al. "Maternal genistein exposure mimics the effects of estrogen on mammary gland development" Oncology Reports 1998 May/June 5(3)609-16....links soy intake with breast cancer.
Ishizuki, et al. "The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects" Endocrinology in Japan 1991 May 20 67:5, 622-9....damaging effect of soy protein on the thyroid gland.
Suzuki, et al. "Plasma free fatty acids, inhibitor of extra thyroidal conversion of T4-T3 and thyroid hormone binding inhibitor in patients with various non-thyroid illnesses. Endocrinology In Japan Oct 1992
39:5, 445-53....More evidence of bad news for the thyroid and soy intake.
Whitten, et al. "Potential adverse effects of phytoestrogens" Journal of Nutrition 1995 March 125:3...the name says it all.
Ganse, R. "Causes of food allergies" School Food Service Journal V40(4), May 1986 pp38-39...Soy has its own food allergy rating.
Obermeyer, et al. "Chemical studies of phytoestrogens in related compounds" Proc soc exp bio med 1995 Jan 208(1):6-12...Soy causes some food allergies.
Lonnerdal, B. et al, "The effect of individual components of soy formula and cows' formula on zinc bioavaibility," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition V. 40 Nov 1984, pp. 1064-1070....Study showing how even Cows milk is much better for a baby than soy, and that soy inhibits zinc uptake.
Atanassova N, McKinnell C, Turner KJ, Walker M, Fisher JS, Morley M, Millar MR, Groome NP, Sharpe RM "Comparative effects of neonatal exposure of male rats to potent and weak (environmental) estrogens on spermatogenesis at puberty and the relationship to adult testis size and fertility: evidence for stimulatory effects of low estrogen levels". Medical Research Council Human Reproductive Sciences Unit, Center for Reproductive Biology, Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom. Endocrinology 2000 Oct;141(10):3898-907..."the presence of soy in the diet has significant short-term (pubertal spermatogenesis) and long-term (body weight, testis size, FSH levels, and possibly mating) effects on males.…our finding that the continuous presence of soy in the diet retards spermatogenic development and results in lifelong alterations in body weight, testis weight and FSH levels does have significant implications for all studies of male reproductive development and function.”
Nagata C, Inaba S, Kawakami N, Kakizoe T, Shimizu H"Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men."Nutr Cancer 2000 36:1 14-8..."The cross-sectional relationships of soy product intake and serum testosterone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone-binding globulin, and dihydrotestosterone were examined in 69 Japanese men. Total and free testosterone concentrations were inversely correlated with soy product intake. Similar correlations were observed for these hormones with isoflavone intake from soy products. The data suggest that soy product intake may be associated with the endogenous hormone levels in Japanese men."
Juniewicz PE, Pallante Morell S, Moser A, Ewing LL "Identification of phytoestrogens in the urine of male dogs" J Steroid Biochem 1988 Dec 31:6 987-94 ..."It is becoming increasingly apparent that dietary factors may play a role in the etiology of hormone dependent neoplasias."
Setchell KD, Gosselin SJ, Welsh MB, Johnston JO, Balistreri WF, Kramer LW, Dresser BL, Tarr MJ "Dietary estrogens--a probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs" Gastroenterology 1987 Aug 93:2 225-33. "We conclude that the relatively high concentrations of phytoestrogens from soybean protein present in the commercial diet fed to captive cheetahs in North American zoos may be one of the major factors in the decline of fertility and in the etiology of liver disease in this species. The survival of the captive cheetah population could depend upon a simple change of diet by excluding exogenous estrogen."
Keung WM. "Dietary estrogenic isoflavones are potent inhibitors of beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase of P. testosteronii."Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24 215:3 1137-44 ..."These results suggest that isoflavones may exert some of their biological effects by modulating activities of enzymes that metabolize steroids critical to hormonal and/or neuronal functions. "
Still think it's safe to eat?
LooneyJM
07-12-2002, 12:45 AM
I'm on the fence about soy and was wondering:
How long have humans been consuming the current form of Tofu, veggie burgers and dogs?
Is tofu considered a processed food? If so, are the soy beans the true 'source'.
Is it better to just eat the actual soybeans?
Thanks, joe
How long have humans been consuming the current form of Tofu, veggie burgers and dogs?
Is tofu considered a processed food? If so, are the soy beans the true 'source'.
Is it better to just eat the actual soybeans?
Thanks, joe
justink80
07-12-2002, 02:03 AM
More on the soy disinformation campaign...
Dairymen produce 170 billion pounds of milk each year -- might soy be a threat to their industry?
Sally Fallon from the Weston A. Price foundation wrote an article about the dangers of soy. Guess what? Her personal website (which I am not allowed to cite due to forum rules) centers on the benefits of "real" milk -- her agenda is clear.
In the article, Fallon stated many poorly drawn conclusions. For example, among Japanese men she linked the higher incidence of esophageal, stomach, thyroid, pancreas and liver cancer to their eating of soy -- she failed to mention that the Japanese also consume a lot of smoked (charred meat contains carcinogens which can contribute to cancer), pickled and salty meats as well as sushi which often contains parasites. Also, tobacco smoking and alcoholism is rampant among Japanese males, which can be obvious causes for many types of cancer.
In this case, shoddy reasoning and an obvious bias clearly influenced these attacks on soy.
------------------
They worship neither a god nor even a demon, but a dead man. -- Celsus
[This message has been edited by justink80 (edited 07-12-2002).]
Dairymen produce 170 billion pounds of milk each year -- might soy be a threat to their industry?
Sally Fallon from the Weston A. Price foundation wrote an article about the dangers of soy. Guess what? Her personal website (which I am not allowed to cite due to forum rules) centers on the benefits of "real" milk -- her agenda is clear.
In the article, Fallon stated many poorly drawn conclusions. For example, among Japanese men she linked the higher incidence of esophageal, stomach, thyroid, pancreas and liver cancer to their eating of soy -- she failed to mention that the Japanese also consume a lot of smoked (charred meat contains carcinogens which can contribute to cancer), pickled and salty meats as well as sushi which often contains parasites. Also, tobacco smoking and alcoholism is rampant among Japanese males, which can be obvious causes for many types of cancer.
In this case, shoddy reasoning and an obvious bias clearly influenced these attacks on soy.
------------------
They worship neither a god nor even a demon, but a dead man. -- Celsus
[This message has been edited by justink80 (edited 07-12-2002).]
arkie6
07-12-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by justink80:
...Sally Fallon from the Weston A. Price foundation wrote an article about the dangers of soy. Guess what? Her personal website (which I am not allowed to cite due to forum rules) centers on the benefits of "real" milk -- her agenda is clear...
It is not as clear as you implied. Sally Fallon recommends a return to "real" milk, by that meaning unpasturized milk that comes from traditional farm settings rather than the current factory type production and distribution method. This is beneficial to the cows as well as the milk consumer. The benefits of unpasturized milk are that it contains numerous beneficial enzymes that are destroyed by the heat of pasturization. The downside is that the shelf life of raw milk is much shorter than pasturized milk.
The "real" milk that Sally Fallon recommends cannot currently be obtained at your grocery store and the dairy industry strongly opposes any return to unpasturized milk because it would significantly increase losses due to spoilage in our current food distributiion system.
So, if you were trying to imply that Sally Fallon, one of the writers of the book "Nurishing Traditions", is somehow being influenced or supported by the dairy industry, I think you are wrong. It is pretty clear to me that Sally Fallon and the Weston A. Price Organizations goal is a recommendation to return to traditional farming and food preparation methods. And unfortunatately for vegetarians, like it or not, most modern methods of preparing soy can in no way be considered "traditional" or "nutritional" for that matter.
Sally Fallon is not totally against soy, just heavily marketed modern interpretations of it like soy protein isolate. Here is what she had to say in one of her articles:
"To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh-which are usually made with organically grown soybeans-have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and ersatz meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems...
...A final indignity to the original soy bean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to produce textured vegetable protein. Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat..."
In the article, Fallon stated many poorly drawn conclusions. For example, among Japanese men she linked the higher incidence of esophageal, stomach, thyroid, pancreas and liver cancer to their eating of soy -- she failed to mention that the Japanese also consume a lot of smoked (charred meat contains carcinogens which can contribute to cancer), pickled and salty meats as well as sushi which often contains parasites. Also, tobacco smoking and alcoholism is rampant among Japanese males, which can be obvious causes for many types of cancer.
Is this refering to the article "Newest Research On Why You Should Avoid Soy" and "Reply to Mr. Bill Sardi, published in The Townsend Letter, April 2001" that the above quote is referring to? If so, it appears to me that someone is trying to deliberately twist the facts around a bit. Here is an excerpt from the Townsend article I am referring to:
"...Mr. Sardi misquotes us frequently. ...He does not seem to understand our argument that if soy is given as the reason Asians have lower rates of breast, prostate and colon cancer (simply because Asians supposedly eat large amounts of soy), then the same logic requires us to blame high rates of cancers of the esophagus, stomach, thyroid, pancreas and liver in Asian countries on consumption of soy. The truth is that we don’t know exactly why Asian countries have certain types of cancers and western countries have other types. Eastern types of cancers have been attributed to many factors, of which soy consumption is one, but to claim that soy consumption is associated with lower rates of certain types of cancers while neglecting to mention that soy is also associated with higher rates of certain types of cancer is typical of industry dishonesty."
There you go.
Alan
...Sally Fallon from the Weston A. Price foundation wrote an article about the dangers of soy. Guess what? Her personal website (which I am not allowed to cite due to forum rules) centers on the benefits of "real" milk -- her agenda is clear...
It is not as clear as you implied. Sally Fallon recommends a return to "real" milk, by that meaning unpasturized milk that comes from traditional farm settings rather than the current factory type production and distribution method. This is beneficial to the cows as well as the milk consumer. The benefits of unpasturized milk are that it contains numerous beneficial enzymes that are destroyed by the heat of pasturization. The downside is that the shelf life of raw milk is much shorter than pasturized milk.
The "real" milk that Sally Fallon recommends cannot currently be obtained at your grocery store and the dairy industry strongly opposes any return to unpasturized milk because it would significantly increase losses due to spoilage in our current food distributiion system.
So, if you were trying to imply that Sally Fallon, one of the writers of the book "Nurishing Traditions", is somehow being influenced or supported by the dairy industry, I think you are wrong. It is pretty clear to me that Sally Fallon and the Weston A. Price Organizations goal is a recommendation to return to traditional farming and food preparation methods. And unfortunatately for vegetarians, like it or not, most modern methods of preparing soy can in no way be considered "traditional" or "nutritional" for that matter.
Sally Fallon is not totally against soy, just heavily marketed modern interpretations of it like soy protein isolate. Here is what she had to say in one of her articles:
"To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh-which are usually made with organically grown soybeans-have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and ersatz meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems...
...A final indignity to the original soy bean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to produce textured vegetable protein. Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat..."
In the article, Fallon stated many poorly drawn conclusions. For example, among Japanese men she linked the higher incidence of esophageal, stomach, thyroid, pancreas and liver cancer to their eating of soy -- she failed to mention that the Japanese also consume a lot of smoked (charred meat contains carcinogens which can contribute to cancer), pickled and salty meats as well as sushi which often contains parasites. Also, tobacco smoking and alcoholism is rampant among Japanese males, which can be obvious causes for many types of cancer.
Is this refering to the article "Newest Research On Why You Should Avoid Soy" and "Reply to Mr. Bill Sardi, published in The Townsend Letter, April 2001" that the above quote is referring to? If so, it appears to me that someone is trying to deliberately twist the facts around a bit. Here is an excerpt from the Townsend article I am referring to:
"...Mr. Sardi misquotes us frequently. ...He does not seem to understand our argument that if soy is given as the reason Asians have lower rates of breast, prostate and colon cancer (simply because Asians supposedly eat large amounts of soy), then the same logic requires us to blame high rates of cancers of the esophagus, stomach, thyroid, pancreas and liver in Asian countries on consumption of soy. The truth is that we don’t know exactly why Asian countries have certain types of cancers and western countries have other types. Eastern types of cancers have been attributed to many factors, of which soy consumption is one, but to claim that soy consumption is associated with lower rates of certain types of cancers while neglecting to mention that soy is also associated with higher rates of certain types of cancer is typical of industry dishonesty."
There you go.
Alan
paper clip
07-12-2002, 03:23 PM
Not to nitpick, but
"...traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh-which are usually made with organically grown soybeans-have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet..."
That's NOT what this research article has to say:
Katz SH. "Food and biocultural evolution: A model for the investigation of modern nutritional problems." Nutritional Anthropology, Allen R. Lis Inc., 1987;p.50.
which describes the soybean history as being used primarily in the cultivation of other crops. Apparently soy can help affix nitrogen in soil and for that reason it was highly prized. Apparently, until recently it was not used a food source, but more as a flavoring agent. So it appears that much of the speculation that soy has long been a food product of the Orient is not without serious doubt.
"...traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh-which are usually made with organically grown soybeans-have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet..."
That's NOT what this research article has to say:
Katz SH. "Food and biocultural evolution: A model for the investigation of modern nutritional problems." Nutritional Anthropology, Allen R. Lis Inc., 1987;p.50.
which describes the soybean history as being used primarily in the cultivation of other crops. Apparently soy can help affix nitrogen in soil and for that reason it was highly prized. Apparently, until recently it was not used a food source, but more as a flavoring agent. So it appears that much of the speculation that soy has long been a food product of the Orient is not without serious doubt.
auntjudyg
07-12-2002, 05:46 PM
According to even some of the anti-soy people, soybeans benefit from fermenting when even they admit that at least some of the undesirable qualities are processed out. It is the raw form of the bean and forms processed in ways other than fermenting that are the worst.
Tofu/tempeh/miso have been around for centuries. Veggie burger, etc., of course are more recent.
Tofu/tempeh/miso have been around for centuries. Veggie burger, etc., of course are more recent.