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Kramerica
03-24-2003, 05:43 PM
Hi everyone, I'm 17 years old and have been a heavy 2% partly skimmed milk drinker for practically all my life. At one point I would drink up to one litre a day!

Anyways, I've stopped drinking 2% two months ago and have started drinking soy milk now.

I remember watching a clip somewhere, it mentioned that cow's milk:

-Is loaded with bad growth hormones, toxins, antibiotics and bacteria

-Causes too much mocus

-Is like drinking glue

-Causes lactose intollerance and allergies, can offset cancers and asthma.

It also mentions that the protein inside milk prevents calcium from being apsorbed, even though the media says milk builds strong bones. According to the clip, the media gives everyone the idea that milk is nature's perfect food, because you see celebrities with those moustaches. The media is all trying to cover up the fact that milk is one of the most hazardous supstances ever.

By the way, I'm talking about cow's milk. I don't think any of this applies to human breast milk so don't worry.

Anyways just my two cents on why I stopped drinking milk. If this can help anyone out then that's great; I know that I feel a lot healthier now.

Take care.




[This message has been edited by Kramerica (edited 03-24-2003).]

netviper13
03-24-2003, 06:06 PM
You are absolutely correct. The factory-farming methods used to increase milk production have led to a horrendous quality to our milk. In fact each glass of cow's milk you drink contains nearly dangerous amounts of puss, yumm eh?

The fact about animal protein is also true. For proof look to the fact that Americans consume far more calcium than any other nationality of people in the world (also more animal protein), yet we have the highest rate of osteoporosis. Calcium from plant sources is much better for you.

Good for you on the soy milk part; you can also get calcium-fortified soy milk which has just as much calcium as cow's milk, just without the chemicals, hormones, pus, and cholesterol.

The Borg
03-24-2003, 07:58 PM
Very good Kramerica! Yes, milk is not good for you. The dairy industry is very powerful. Recently i heard they lobbied to stop the sale of soy milk in public schools.

Milk is a very poor source of calcium, because it contains too much phosphorus that blocks calcium absorption.

Unfortunately, most people will always think it's "does a body good."

auntjudyg
03-25-2003, 06:32 AM
The other alternative would be if you could find some nice unpasteurized, unhomogenized milk from pasture-fed cows.

Magpiezoe
03-25-2003, 10:14 AM
Unpasturized milk or juice is not a good idea. Orangic pasturized milk, yes. Pasturization is just a method of heating up the milk/juice so that it kills the bacteria in the product. Pasturization does not add the hormones. The hormones are fed to the cows and that is how it gets in the milk. If you get a hold of some unpasturized milk, you can really get sick. Unpasturized milk/juice contains ecoli and saminella. If you're scared of milk, just stick with the soy milk. Soy milk is much safer than unpasturized milk.

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Magpie

auntjudyg
03-25-2003, 01:22 PM
Sorry, Magpiezoe, but I disagree completely about pasteurization. Sure, you have to know the source, but raw milk produced well is as safe as anything else. I don't know where you are getting your information about unpasteurized milk and juice containing ecoli and salmonella and making one sick, but it just is not true. Along with the bacteria, pasteurization also kills beneficial enzymes.

Magpiezoe
03-26-2003, 05:59 AM
Hello, The dangers of unpasteuriztion of juices and milk can be found by doing searches through search engines or going to the FDA, (United States Food and Drug Administration)CDC, (United States Center for Disease Control) and the Canadian Health Dept. website. There you will find information on reported ecoli and salmenlla outbreaks due to the consumption of unpasteurized juices and milk and under cooked meats. These websites are free and open to the public. There are no advertisements or selling on government websites. Here are some government links listed below...Ecoli and salmenella are especially dangerous to young children, senior citizens, and people with low immune systems.
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/corpaffr/foodfacts/juicee.shtml
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/juicefl.html
http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00044358.htm
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9809/08/juice.safety/
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5125a2.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/escherichiacoli_g.htm


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Magpie

ramsemonius
03-26-2003, 02:09 PM
My $.02:

I agree with auntJudy. Organic, Pasture-fed. Unpasteurized is probably healthier than pasteurized if it is not contaminated because it is LESS PROCESSED and contains MORE ENZYMES, which even slight heat destroys. Of course, a little common sense goes A LONG WAYS! Most producers of organic/pasture-fed cow milk are very scrupulous and are usually quite small companies, who really care about their work and their products. GeT REal! Plus, milk from pasture-fed cows has been found to contain up to 600% more conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) than regular super-market milk. CLA fights cancer and obesity. That said, I still advise caution to consuming any cow milk in high quantities or when you have a respiratory condition because it can aggravate mucous conditions. Ramsemonius.

auntjudyg
03-26-2003, 03:54 PM
There have been outbreaks of ecoli and salmonella from many foods. The problem is the food being handled under unsanitary conditions and being contaminated; the problem is not the unpasteurized food.

prettything
03-27-2003, 04:56 PM
ewww..milk is so gross. i love rice milk, almond milk, and soy bean milk

Magpiezoe
03-28-2003, 05:33 AM
Hello, There is organic/pasture feed cow milk that is pasteurized. You don't have to buy grocery store milk to get pasteurized milk. I was infering that massed produced, hormone filled milk is better than organic. I was just saying that make sure it's pasteurized.

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Magpie

HeyThere
04-04-2003, 08:07 AM
You should take a look into liquid calcium magnesium and vitamin D and phophorus. If you are going to not do dairy. Too much soy is not healthy either estrogens accumulate in your fat for storage and cause hormone imbalances etc. etc. One should get their nutrients from a variety of sources. Just a friendly FYI.

Magpiezoe
04-07-2003, 09:54 AM
Correction, correction. I just re-read my own post and found that I forgot the "n't" on the word "was." I was trying to say that I wasn't infering that hormone induced milk is better than organic, just to be careful of where you're getting your organic milk. Man, did I leave myself wide open. Sorry. The only nutritive ingredient that I know of that is damage by heat is vit. C, which is not in milk. Feel free to enlighten me about other heat damage nutrients.

Amond milk...now that has my interest up. Where do you get it? Does it come powdered or in liquid form? Does it taste better than soy milk when you make pudding and can you bake with it?

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Magpie

auntjudyg
04-07-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Magpiezoe:
The only nutritive ingredient that I know of that is damage by heat is vit. C, which is not in milk. Feel free to enlighten me about other heat damage nutrients.

Amond milk...now that has my interest up. Where do you get it? Does it come powdered or in liquid form? Does it taste better than soy milk when you make pudding and can you bake with it?


Enzymes are killed by heat - that's the major issue with pasteurization, anyway.

My Whole Foods has almond milk. I've seen recipes on the net, though, so a search might bring one up.

waiguoren
04-08-2003, 10:47 PM
Oh come on.

Milk is also good for you you know!

I've been living in CHina for almost a year now.

For the first six months I didn't drink milk, but started on skim milk more recently. Since then, my weight is back on track and I'm feeling much more healthy.

I think too many people poo poo milk. Sure it has this and that in it, but dammit - so does the other food you eat.

What about soy milk? Have you men grown breasts yet?

Big fat milk moustached smile....
cheers

The Borg
04-09-2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by waiguoren:
Oh come on.

Milk is also good for you you know!

I've been living in CHina for almost a year now.

For the first six months I didn't drink milk, but started on skim milk more recently. Since then, my weight is back on track and I'm feeling much more healthy.

I think too many people poo poo milk. Sure it has this and that in it, but dammit - so does the other food you eat.

What about soy milk? Have you men grown breasts yet?

Big fat milk moustached smile....
cheers


I'm a guy that's been drinking soy milk for the last 15 years. I'm still only a B cup! I hope one day to be a D cup! ;)

Where is your science coming from? Just because soy is high in isoflavones doesn't mean a man will grow breast.

ramsemonius
04-09-2003, 09:24 AM
I don't know of any published science showing a connection between gynecomastia and soy. However, there are several reports of other phytoestrogen-containing plants to cause gynecomastia in men. I have listed a published abstract from one article below. As far as my personal beliefs, I think if a man has "***** ****" or is beginning to grow them, he should stay away from soy as regular food, because we do know that soy contains rather high levels of chemicals with distinct estrogenic activity - thus the term "phytoestrogen". I think there are alot of people on this board who eat alot of soy, and they are quite defensive of their habit. I probably would be too. I think soy is an amazing food, in that it has proven benefits for preventing certain diseases, but on the other hand alot of people I know complain of digestive discomfort from regular consumption of soy. What an interesting food. As for myself personally, I believe that it compromises my yang if I eat it too regularly.

Singapore Med J 2001 Mar;42(3):115-6
Gynaecomastia and the herbal tonic "Dong Quai".
Goh SY, Loh KC.
Endocrine Unit, Department of General Medicine, Tan Tock Seng Hospital, Singapore.
We present a case of a man who developed gynaecomastia after ingestion of "Dong Quai" pills. "Dong Quai" is the Chinese name for the herb Angelica polymorpha var. sinensis which is widely used as a panacea for gynaecological problems, and it is also proclaimed as an invigorating tonic for both women and men.The pharmacological effects of "Dong Quai" are likely related to the phytoestrogen that it contains.This report highlights the potential adverse effects associated with its consumption in the male, especially for the processed "Dong Quai" pills which may contain significantly higher levels of phytoestrogen than its original herbal product.

Magpiezoe
04-09-2003, 12:39 PM
Hello, Dong Quai is not related to soy beans. It is an herbal medicine for women made from a Dong Quai root. The comprable herbal medicine for men is Ginsing, which is also a root. Sorry, but my hubby still doesn't have breasts yet...He's not even an "A" cup. I have seen overweight men, who don't eat soy, with breasts. If people want to drink soy, then let them. If they want to drink milk, fine. No big deal. Some people have allergies to milk and some people can't digest the lactose in milk. Some people have allergies to soy too. Some people even have peanut allergies. If the oringinal poster wants to try soy, then go ahead. It's food.

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Magpie

Rixtar
04-09-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by prettything:
ewww..milk is so gross. i love rice milk, almond milk, and soy bean milk

I am sure that there are tens of thousands of people that feel the way that prettyhting does. The unfortunate truth is that most of the products you mention here are full of added sweetners or other additives. It is true that the mass production of dairy products includes horomones and other additives but, if the consumer chooses a reliable brand that is organic there is nothing that compares to the complete nutrient base in animal milk. The vegetable based products you mention are not as complete. So everyone drink up whatever you like. It is afterall a matter of personal taste.

Farmer Sue Tickle
04-09-2003, 09:10 PM
And my $.03.

Yes ecoli is possible from unpasteurized milk, but that is from today's mass-produced cows that are fed corn. This is harder to digest by cows, which is why they get fatter (don't we all?) and develop that marbled look the Americans and Japanese love. Feed them on grass and ecoli is almost non-existant either in the meat or in the milk.

Also on calcium: dairy products create an acidic gastro tract to which the body must leach calcium to help alkalize. So calcium in, calcium out. Ever wonder why those reflux meds have added calcium? 'cos you're losing it when you eat acid-forming foods.

Lastly, I think unadulterated milk is probably very good for you (and rare!) but still have trouble thinking why we're the only mammals that a) drink another animal's milk, and b) drink it beyond infancy ? What does everyone think?

NancyH
04-09-2003, 10:21 PM
Oh, we also eat another animals eggs to, so go figure! I have osteoporosis and at a young age, I'm small framed, light weight, eat lots of dairy, meat and veggies. Plant protein is not absorbed as well as meat or dairy protein. too bad as I eat by far more veggies like collard greens etc than I do meat or dairy. Milk Milk Milk, always a controversy, who starts it? Same person who said eggs should be outlawed cuz they are so bad for you? I take all the hype for what it is, hype, one day milk is bad next day not so bad just like eggs who later turned out even 4 a week is ok! someone needs to get a life and I'm sure it has to do with CEOs who feel the tug on their money belts! People need to start listening to their own bodies and not run with every new pharmacuetical or diet jargen! I live as I preach, All things in consideration, most things in moderation and that includes milk, soy or otherwise. We are such suckers for these media hypes!

Absinthe
04-10-2003, 06:36 AM
I take issue with the notion that we are the only mammals that drink milk past infantcy. If you leave a dish of milk outside, it will be consumed by any and every thing that comes across it. If you are a pet owner, you know that cats enjoy milk and dogs will eat most anything.

Now, that doesn't speak to the issue of whether it's good for you or not. That's an individual preference. If you like it and have no problems digesting lactose, then drink it. Conversely, if you hate it or can't tolerate it, then AVOID it. We don't all have to agree.

auntjudyg
04-10-2003, 06:49 AM
I certainly agree about media hype and looking for the magic pill. But some people's bodies have gotten so out of whack that listening to them is not the answer either, initially, at least.

That's where asking questions and listening to other people's experiences (hopefully, presented in a straightforward, non-emotional manner) can be helpful to sort through, try out and see what rings true. It also allows the opportunity to see that what works for us individually is not necessarily the answer for everyone.

Farmer Sue Tickle,

Yeah, I've wondered about that. (But cats drink milk, too, don't they? Or is that just a wives' tale?) And are you talking about all dairy products or just milk?

We are the only ones to cook our food, too; but I am not about to go all raw, even though I know a couple of people who rave about the benefits (and I'm not just talking about veggies, fruits and nuts here).

Bottom line - I'm not giving up my yogurt . . . or cheese!

The Borg
04-10-2003, 11:05 AM
I don't understand why some people are getting defensive about milk. If you don't mind drinking a product with growth hormones, antibiotics, and pus.....more power to ya!

The bottom line is regular store milk is not a healthy drink. (with the exception of some organic produts) Everyone has the right to decide what they are going to put in their body.

We all have some food vices, but it's important to a least be aware of what's added to the products you consume. Just choose your poisons wisely.

Angelene
04-10-2003, 11:52 AM
Just an odd tidbit and also my two cents..

Domesticated cats aren't supposed to be fed milk, it's horrible for them. Just ask any vet and they'll tell you to limit it or not give it to them at all.

I don't drink milk, I drink soy and then again I don't even drink that all that much. I use it in coffee and for cereal, and for baking. And for the occasional chocolate milk. My reasoning behind it is ethical; the inhumane treatment of the animals "behind the scenes" that the dairy industry doesn't want you to know. I also feel that there is an abundance of hormones in the milk that, in my opinion, are responsible for the early onset of puberty in young girls. Just take a look at the 5th graders in your town's elementary school. I also don't think that it's rational to drink another mammals' milk--it's intended for the baby calf. Except, the calf is taken away and treated inhumanely too, for veal. I won't even go into the meat industry.

The bottom line is, no matter what you think your personal choice is, I believe I have a higher obligation to do the right thing for every being on the planet, and not just the convenient one for me. I'm vegan b/c I have a body that is able to live on a herbivorous diet, and since I can, I will--it's the principle of it.

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"Never give up, never surrender!"

MarkTime
04-11-2003, 10:16 AM
My wife is Ukrainian, she hates our milk. It doesn't taste natural.

I remember a while back that an American company began selling chicken to Kyiv, and it initially made a lot of people sick. They weren't accustomed to all the hormones.

We can eat our food, only because of the tolerance's we have built up from eating them for so long. It makes other people sick....wow

We have really gotten away from natural processes, for better or worse, and our products don't taste the same. Butter, milk, even sunflower oil.

In my home, we get our calcium from orange juice that has calcium added. I didn't know that milked blocked calcium uptake, but I guess we did the right thing, unless, of course someone discovers orange juice does the same thing.

Now I eat all kinds of more natural foods...or maybe just more Ukrainian, I wouldn't really know the difference...I eat buckwheat, fish, rices, potato, pork, fruits, radishes, pickled tomato's, cucumbers, lots of soups...

The ukrainian people are not fat, but truly they just eat less...I eat the same food and can gain weight, but its because I eat too much, at times.

Magpiezoe
04-11-2003, 01:32 PM
Hello, Since you mentioned about another country...Do you use goat's milk? I saw a segment on a cooking show called Malta Mario and he said that even the cheese in Italy has less fat than USA cheese. I started wondering if the cheese was made from a different animal like a goat. I know the Ukrane is not Italy, but maybe the type of animal we use could be different too? I love to learn stuff.

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Magpie

sean
04-15-2003, 06:46 PM
I know people are allowed, even expected, to say anything at all about nutrional or health issues on the internet, and that it then becomes gospel, but the notion that milk or dairy products interfere calcium absorption is nuts. it is simply contradicted by all the evidence. I didn't say some of the evidence. I said all.

In study after study, in children and adults, calcium levels in tissue and blood, measures of bone density, and so on are correlated more closely to dairy product intake than to anything else. Fractures, including dangerous ones like the vertebrae and the hip among the elderly, are again and again associated with low dairy (and vitamin D)when these are studied.

This is probably why the only non-pharmaceutical treatments for osteoporosis that have been shown to make a reliable, statistically significant improvement in bone density are resistance exercise, vitamin D supplementation, and increasing dairy consumption--alone or in combination. Even hormone replacement, which we now know has its own considerable issues, did not show such consistent calcium status results as does increasing dairy intake. Bone density has been much studied in the last decade since we suddenly seemed to discover it in the 80's or thereabouts, and the studies are numerous and consistent on the value of dairy.

Some people are lactose intolerant, yes, and some hate yogurt or cheese (which are by definition lactose-reduced), some folks want to stick to low fat or skim milk products to cut fat, and some are allergic and so on, but for those who have no problem with dairy, you will have a very hard time finding anything else as efficient at filling your calcium needs. Yes, you can do it, but it is pretty tough. And yes, the calcium fortified juices seem one way to help.

Dark green veggies are a calcium source, but in some of them the oxalic acids interfere strongly with calcium absorption. although I LOVE spinach, I have had to realize that it is an unreliable source of calcium for exactly this reason.

No, I don't work for a dairy company. (And my dairy is almost entirely from cheeses, since I choose to reduce carbohydrates.) But I just get irritated seeing folks spread urban health myths as if it were "knowledge." like that dairy is bad for calcium.

here's another one--can you find ANY studies suggesting--i said even suggesting--that higher egg consumption is related to more, or more severe, heart disease? Nope, and this issue has been even more voluminously studied than dairy and calcium. I didn't say can you find internet postings, I said studies--peer reviewed, careful, studies.

There is real research out there, it just takes a little work, and a dose of critical thinking, to find it. Without GOOD research, we should be hesitant to eliminate good, nutritous foods from our diet. The american diet is borderline unhealthy in so many ways already.

yours in peace.

sean

The Borg
04-16-2003, 06:40 AM
Many people are concerned about getting enough calcium in their diets to protect against bone-weakening osteoporosis later in life, and some are turning to dairy products to supply that calcium. But, increasing dairy consumption may not be the right solution. In fact, dairy food may even contribute to osteoporosis.

How can it be that Americans consume more milk than people in many other countries do, yet our fracture rates are very high? Scandinavians devour enormous amounts of milk, and their fracture rate is the worst in the world. Asian countries, on the other hand, use very little dairy food, yet they have very low fracture rates. The average calcium intake is less than 300 milligrams per day in Singapore, and the fracture rate there is one-fifth that of the U.S.

Evidence indicates that bones become weak because of overly rapid calcium loss, not inadequate intake, and the loss seems to be due to high protein diets. Research has found that meat-eaters lose over twice the calcium each day than vegetarians.

Not only is milk not a solution to osteoporosis, it may cause a more serious problem—epidemiological studies have shown that dairy-product use is linked with higher breast cancer rates. One survey of Seventh Day Adventists found that the more dairy a woman consumed, the higher her risk of breast cancer.

There are several factors that, when added up, could explain why milk might cause breast cancer:

A pregnant cow produces extra estrogens that end up in her milk, and excess estrogen is known to make breast cancer cells multiply.

Fat in milk causes the release of excess estrogen in the woman's body.

The body uses fiber to eliminate estrogen, and milk contains no fiber.

Mother's milk, either human or cow, helps the tiny baby to grow rapidly. It may be that the growth factors in milk, such as insulin-like growth factor (IGF-I), are encouraging the growth of cancer cells.

In test-tube studies, IGF-I was found to accelerate the growth of breast cancer cells, and this compound may be more potent than estrogens in this regard. Bovine growth hormone (BGH) is now being given to cows to boost their milk production, as well as the dairy farmers' profits, and cows receiving BGH produce two to four times more IGF-I than normal.

Finally, milk contains pesticides and industrial pollutants. Breast cancer deaths declined in Israel when three carcinogens found in Israeli milk were banned.

sean
04-16-2003, 07:46 AM
Well, bovine growth hormone seems like scary stuff, and I shop for milk that avoids it if I can. And, there does seem to be a weak link between elevated animal fat (other than fish oil) intake and breast cancer. However, the same studies find no link to low fat dairy foods--it seems to be the fat, not the dairy that is an issue. This all seems irrelevant to the points in this thread about bone density, though.

On the issue you argue, dairy intake and bone health, the positive benefits of dairy are found in all the studies that have been done of this.

Your stuff about sweden and most of the rest of what is asserted in your post as if it were settled fact, in fact seems simply made up. There have been MANY studies of cross-cultural diet and calcium and vitamin D and bone health, for example the huge and famous SENECA study of 10 European countries. They all find the same thing—dairy intake is the most reliable form of calcium intake, stongly linked to fracture reduction, with only sardines and supplements coming close to the measured positive effect on bone health. Vitamin D is also crucial, of course.

What researchers have found in Israel had to do with levels of lindane and ddt-related pesticides that had been---two or more decades ago—found in milk and other foods there at levels more than 100 times (!) the level found in the u.s. And, the decline in cancer numbers there—which is true—relates to lowered pesticide residues found since new laws were passed, NOT to (non-existent)lowered milk consumption. This is what the studies say, I don’t know who told you different. It is good to look into, and behind, what we read or hear.

To save the trouble of citing the dozens of relevant studies I’ll mention two articles that each reviewed many separate research efforts:
Verena, et al, in Osteoporosis International of 2001 concluded that diets that severely limits calcium intake from dairy products in an attempt to correct raised serum cholesterol levels INCREASED the risk of osteoporosis and Colles' fracture. They go on to state that dietary interventions to lower serum cholesterol should maintain an adequate calcium intake by, they specifically conclude, providing calcium from low-fat dairy products or supplements. This is their conclusion after analyzing years of work by numerous researchers, all cited.
Hearney wrote in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, apr. 2000 that all studies adding calcium to diets improved bone density and fracture outcomes for high-risk post-menopausal women, and that the studies used either dairy products or supplements for the calcium with equal success.

Both of these studies were summaries of much work by others, but if you choose to you can go on Pub Med and find just pages and pages of references to work along these lines.

There is much we don't know, but there IS some stuff we can find out if we look into it a bit. I think so, anyway.


peace (let's hope)

sean

sean
04-16-2003, 08:36 AM
Oh, and just to continue noting some misconceptions--insulin-like-growth-factor (IGF-1), may or may not be related to tumor growth, but it seems not, depending on the type of cancer. It IS, however, a key stimulant of bone tissue growth.

And, the relationship of protein to bone density is complex. But among the clearest relationships found, especially in recent studies, is that low protein diets lead to bone loss, and adding protein (almost always animal sourced in the studies I know of) to the diets of people with osteoporosis is consistently found to improve bone density. This was the conclusion even of researchers who started out with the opposite hypothesis . (Because they had measured slightly increased calcium in the urine after a protein meal, scientists had expected that high protein diets would increase bone loss. Doesn't happen.)

Again, these studies are generally available. And, they are not cutting-edge, un-replicated, odd results. Not anymore.

sean

Farmer Sue Tickle
04-16-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by sean:
In study after study, in children and adults, calcium levels in tissue and blood, measures of bone density, and so on are correlated more closely to dairy product intake than to anything else. Fractures, including dangerous ones like the vertebrae and the hip among the elderly, are again and again associated with low dairy (and vitamin D)when these are studied.

Hi Sean, how do you suggest we lived (the cavemen, that is) 10,000 years ago prior to the agricultural age? Did we have more fractures and osteoperosis then, were we able to source calcium differently or were we built differently?

I'm a caveman (blood type O), avoid dairy and still am able to keep my calcium levels stable without too much effort.

netviper13
04-16-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by sean:
Oh, and just to continue noting some misconceptions--insulin-like-growth-factor (IGF-1), may or may not be related to tumor growth, but it seems not, depending on the type of cancer. It IS, however, a key stimulant of bone tissue growth.

And, the relationship of protein to bone density is complex. But among the clearest relationships found, especially in recent studies, is that low protein diets lead to bone loss, and adding protein (almost always animal sourced in the studies I know of) to the diets of people with osteoporosis is consistently found to improve bone density. This was the conclusion even of researchers who started out with the opposite hypothesis . (Because they had measured slightly increased calcium in the urine after a protein meal, scientists had expected that high protein diets would increase bone loss. Doesn't happen.)

Again, these studies are generally available. And, they are not cutting-edge, un-replicated, odd results. Not anymore.

sean


The Harvard Nurses Study is still considered to be the most reliable study yet involving bone strength. One of its main advantages is the time span, which is very large.

Empirical evidence also supports the anti-dairy position. There are parts of the world where dairy is almost never consumed (same with meat), and yet rates of osteoporosis in those areas are exponentially lower than those in the US. It would seem odd for dairy to be a bone saver when the US consumes the most dairy and also has the highest rates of osteoporosis.

sean
04-17-2003, 06:44 AM
Hi Farmer Sue-

Well, as the SENECA cross-national study I mentioned above said, after diary, sardines seemed a terrifc source of calcium. Why? 'cause people who eat them are eating the entire being. Before the age of butchers, we ate many small fish, birds, and other animals whole, and the bones and other calciferous parts of all animals without being able to avoid it, really. And, of course, many cultures that we call "cave" were hunters or especially fishers, who ate a great deal of meat. In some cultures we would consider quite primitive, consumption of milk products from cattle or various mammals is actually quite high. Cheeses and yogurts seem to be quite an ancient invention. Most early cultures had a LOT of animal calcium in their diet, and often it was dairy

Although I must say that examination of primitive skeletons show arthritis, dental problems, and other disease just like we suffer, so these peoples may have had their own health difficulties in their short, brutish lives. Who knows, really?

Anyway, I would never argue that dairy is the ONLY source of absorbable calcium, just one very good one. I was writing to refute the folks who declare dairy interferes with, is BAD for calcium absorption, bone density, etc. These folk are simply wrong.

Getting your calcium elsewhere is certainly possible, lots of folks do so successfully. And, for those who can't tolerate or who just hate dairy products, this is exactly how they live theiir lives, and god bless 'em. The studies of who is well-calcium-supplied, and who is not, as it happens, show that dairy consumers on average do a lot better than the non- group, but this doesn't mean it can't be done, only that it takes a bit more work and thought to keep calcium supplies adequate if you skip dairy.

By the way, calcium deficiencies are among the most common in our society, and almost EVERYone who is calcium deficient is unaware of this until it shows up as broken bones. So, the truth is for the most part we don't know (unless you've had a recent bone density test??) how well our own diet is filling this need.

sean

[This message has been edited by sean (edited 04-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by sean (edited 04-17-2003).]

sean
04-17-2003, 07:03 AM
And, for NetViper--

I know a little about the Harvard Nurses Study, and it is VERY supportive of dairy intake. It was the study that refuted, seemingly for once and all, the supposed link to breast cancer. It found rates of breast cancer (and colon, and other cancers, for that matter) to be lower among those with higher dairy intake.

What about that study suggests to you that it would discourage dairy consumption?

And what in the WORLD has suggested to you that Americans have either the highest dairy intake OR the highest rates of osteoporosis in the world? Where does this stuff come from????

sean


sean

[This message has been edited by sean (edited 04-17-2003).]

onedaisiegal
04-24-2003, 11:23 AM
hey guys....WHAT ABOUT COTTAGE CHEESE AND OTHER TYPES OF CHEESES???

ramsemonius
04-24-2003, 03:48 PM
What a lot of people don't know, is that dairy products produced from feed-lot cows contain much less of the chemical Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) than those produced from grass-fed cows. As much as 600% less. Researchers have found that CLA is a critical nutrient for fighting obesity, cancer and disordered blood lipids. So cheese 100 years ago was probably alot more health-friendly than modern day cheese.

Cheese for the most part is free of lactose, so it might digest better than milk for some people.

I've heard that cottage cheese is good for muscle building becuase it has whey protein as well as casein. Cottage cheese might have a little more lactose than other cheeses however.

-Ramsemonius

arkie6
04-24-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by ramsemonius:
What a lot of people don't know, is that dairy products produced from feed-lot cows...

Feedlot dairy cows? Beef cattle yes, but dairy cattle? How do dairys operate in other parts of the country? Around here, dairy cattle are kept on pasture year round. In the winter time they are usually put on winter wheat and/or rye grass and supplemented with hay. Dairy cattle receive very little processed feed supplements around here (Arkansas).

sean
04-25-2003, 06:11 AM
Thanks, Arkie,

I meant to add in an earlier post that the reason adduced by many researchers for calcium issues in Scandanavia, Iceland, and similar places has to do with too little sun.

In general, the break in calcium status is not east vs. west (us compared with asia) as mentioned in one or two of the above posts, but more north vs. south. Countries with strong sun usually--controlling for other factors such as diet--do much better with calcium status, bone density, etc.

So, with all our debates on dietary sources for calcium, let's not forget how important Vitamin D is in all this (and in zinc absorption, another common deficiency). It's a pretty big deal, too often overlooked.

Eat hearty, everyone!


sean

ramsemonius
04-25-2003, 10:05 AM
Arkie,

I've never been to Arkansas, but I am glad to hear all your dairy is produced from 100% pature fed cows. That's awsome. Is that why Bill Clinton had such a great libido? (LOL!)

Unfortunately, most dairy products in the US are produced by large operations that clearly do not give the cows a natural environment and that fatten up the cows on grains for months prior to milking. According to the Agricultural Research Service branch of the USDA, "currently only 10-12% of U.S. dairy cows are grazed"(1). Their research showed that cows graing pastures produced 5 times more CLA than cows fed conventional diets.(1)

Further scientific research shows that cows fed on 33% pasture produced 8.9mg/g of CLA in their milk, versus 22.1mg/g from cows fed 100% pasture.(2)

In addition, according to the Lethbridge Reserach Centre of Agriculture, "In the past, CLA was far more abundant in the diets of people in North America than it is today". (3) They further state "...the decline in CLA in our diets has to do with the dominance in our society of a type of livestock production in agriculture which calls for confinement and efficient production techniques"(3)

Arkie, if you ever make it out to California, assuming you haven't, take a ride through Norco along I-15 or take I-5 through the central valley. There you can see mass dairy production at its worst, and I think we are the largest producer in the U.S.

So everybody, buy organic! as much as you can afford! Support sustainable agriculture! Our health is at steak! ;)

-Ramsemonius.

References:

1. McGraw L. Grazing cows produce more cancer-fighting compound in milk. USDA Agricultural Reserach Service News, April 7, 2000.

2. Dhiman TR, Anand GR, Satter LD, Pariza MW. Conjugated linoleic acid content of milk from cows fed different diets. J Dairy Sci. 1999 Oct;82(10):2146-56.

3. Greenberg L. Klasna D. The Marketing Potential of Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) in Cheese. Wisconsin Initiative for Value-Added Development, Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE)Program. May 2002

tznonny
04-25-2003, 11:32 AM
Cow's milk IS NOT necessary for us to have a healthy life and anyone that tells you otherwise is nuts in my opinion. We have been hypnotized to believe that if we are not drinking milk that we will somehow be harming ourselves. I have a 3 year old grandson that does NOT drink cows milk and has never had it or formula for that matter. My daughter breast fed him until he was weined around 2 and he was given other sources of calcium. He was also not given all those sugary juices and other garbage drinks. He drinks LOTS of water and does not have the food allergies so many children have developed. I applaud you for trying to seek this information out. If I were you, I would take a calcium tablet at your age and stay away from the milk. IT IS NOT A MIRACLE DRUG!

cocacolagirl
04-25-2003, 02:42 PM
makes me real glad I am allergic to milk anyways. I take vitamins. ;)

FaithfulyWaiting
04-28-2003, 07:10 PM
Hey. You know, I've drank cow's milk most of my life, and I've always had a lot of sinus problems. Always being congested, etc. and then I heard about the allergies people can get from cows' milk, and I was like..wow! Anyways. I stopped drinking milk, and drink soy milk. My allergies went away, after I stopped drinking cow's milk..however..after about a month of soy..I was getting a allergic reaction from that too. I don't drink either as much as I would like, because It makes me sooo congested, and miserable! Sinus headeaches, ear infections, runny nose, snoring! So I try to avoid it.

auntjudyg
04-29-2003, 06:49 AM
We must have similar genetics, Faithfuly. I do okay with goat's milk and raw milk, but really don't drink much of either anymore. And I don't miss it because it's SO NICE not getting those nasty sinus colds every winter!

Sybersnott
05-06-2003, 07:08 PM
This is exactly why most of the population is calcium-deficient. They don't drink milk, they don't consume dairy - then they wonder why they develop osteoporsis or some other debilitating disease that will put them into wheelchairs or severely cramp their lifestyles later in life!!

The whole "DON'T DRINK MILK" campaign hysteria is a HOAX, big time, and I refuse to be a part of it or get sucked into it by these "anti-diary" fanatics!! These same people also believe in the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and aliens from Mars! I drink milk EVERYDAY and I love it! No, it's not the greatest drink on Earth and I'm not claiming that it is. Hey, if you don't want to drink milk FINE... but don't quote idiotic nonsense that "it does that and it does this, and it's bad"... that's just slamming it - you don't have REAL facts or studies to back up your claims, so don't pretend you do!

Bottom line: if you can't or won't drink milk, please find a source of calcium that will supplement your body's needs. Don't - and you can start digging yourself an early grave.

------------------
Come... kneel down in awe and gaze in the wonderment that is the kingdom of SYBERSNOTT!

viver
05-06-2003, 08:29 PM
> I heard about the allergies people can get from
> cows' milk, and I was like..wow! Anyways. I stopped
> drinking milk, and drink soy milk. My allergies went
> away, after I stopped drinking cow's
> milk..however..after about a month of soy..I was
> getting a allergic reaction from that too.

I stopped eating dairy foods in sometime around 1975. Before that I was allergic to everything (it seemed), had terrible sinus problems and lung congestion. Eliminating dairy cleared up ~50% of the problems. Regular relaxation/yoga classes cleared up most of the rest of my allergies.

I tried making soy milk in the early 1980's, but found it hard to digest. I think alot of people have trouble with soy milk. I think rice milk is better for some.

I am very glad that I gave up dairy as I believe its use often contributes to serious health problems over time. I found it pretty easy to get calcium from other foods (e.g., collard greens, wakame, sesame seeds, tofu, black beans, etc.). But if I were to try some dairy again, it would only be the naturally fermented (unsweetened) products made from organic, unhomogenized milk -- e.g., kefir, "sour milk," yogurt.

Mark

Frogjive
05-11-2003, 10:17 AM
Milk does a body good....pass it on...=)

Jabesq
07-26-2003, 12:24 AM
Just a note to the original poster: Consuming milk does not cause lactose intolerance. This is a genetic issue. It is estimated that 20% of caucasians , 60% of blacks and 99% of Asians are lactose intolerant. You can blame your genetics, not milk.

Also, puss in simply a grouping of white blood cells and bateria, which would be killed in the pasteurization process. It's not actually that gross if you think about it, the name is the worst part. "Ewww, puss!"

girlygirly
07-26-2003, 04:45 AM
I have to agree with Sean on all of his points. I very recently have found a farmer that will sell me raw milk (yeahhhhhh!!!), and I am so delighted. Raw milk has bacteria in it that is very healthy for your intestines aiding in digestion. Plus no hormones or antibiotics added. Regular store bought commercial milk is a big waste of your money. The real reason that pasteurization fell into favor is to increase the shelf life of the products, all about profits,it is not about your health.

Also maybe I am missing something here, but how does soy produce milk? I know you can buy goats milk and cows milk because you have females that produce milk. Are there little male and female soybeans running around out there? Soy milk is a manmade "food" item that has to have calcium and other vitamins and minerals added to it, what does that tell you? Have you ever looked at the processing techniques used to produce soy, those drinking it should look it up. The only other milk out there that people are scared to drink is coconut milk, but it is actually very healthy for you, however no one is claiming the this is a milk "substitute".