bouncedaround
10-05-2005, 09:27 PM
Someone help!! I still have not had surgery yet? Go figure.
Recently had another MRI in September and the results read as shown:
C4/5 - mildly indenting the ventral spinal cord
C5/6 There is moderate broad spondylitic ridging mildly compressing the spinal cord and there is a mild foraminal narrowing bilaterally
QUESTION: Isn't the compression on my spinal column bad? Where can I find information on this? They finally put me on Fetanyl patch and I have some relief so I am able to be ambulatory however the last neuro said that since I didn't have radiculopathic pain the surgery would have to wait.
I hope these doctors are not putting surgery off because of my insurance company dragging this out to see if it will just go away.
Recently had another MRI in September and the results read as shown:
C4/5 - mildly indenting the ventral spinal cord
C5/6 There is moderate broad spondylitic ridging mildly compressing the spinal cord and there is a mild foraminal narrowing bilaterally
QUESTION: Isn't the compression on my spinal column bad? Where can I find information on this? They finally put me on Fetanyl patch and I have some relief so I am able to be ambulatory however the last neuro said that since I didn't have radiculopathic pain the surgery would have to wait.
I hope these doctors are not putting surgery off because of my insurance company dragging this out to see if it will just go away.
Sponsor
Fancylady
10-05-2005, 10:04 PM
Did you notice most of the writing said MILD. Trust the Dr's. The Radiculopathic pain, I think, is down the leg. I do have this and they aren't planning on surgery. Well they are, but its a Spinal Cord Stimulator. It will change the pain, but not fix the problem.
They don't do surgery until you really need it because once you start having it, in time the pain comes back, meaning more surgery. It doesn't seem to stop. I've had 4 back surgeries and the pain is back. They don't want to correct anymore. This happes to must patients. I hope I haven't discouraged you to much. That's why they are telling you to wait.
Blessings,
Fancylady
They don't do surgery until you really need it because once you start having it, in time the pain comes back, meaning more surgery. It doesn't seem to stop. I've had 4 back surgeries and the pain is back. They don't want to correct anymore. This happes to must patients. I hope I haven't discouraged you to much. That's why they are telling you to wait.
Blessings,
Fancylady
nero
10-06-2005, 01:10 AM
Fancy lady is right. If surgery was soooo successful it would be had by all...unfortunately it is sometimes a short or temporary or longlived relief but the pain or other herniations can reappear. I wanted them to do both levels on my neck...one was enough...the other still acts up but when it comes to surgery less is better it seems because of less chance of risk to you. It is hard to understand when you are in pain but having had neck with plate surgery due compression and paralysis and lumbar minor surgery.... I have to say I have had enough for now and hope the next is in the distant future.... if it was a deadset fix I would have them do a brow lift and breast augmentation too but as it goes we all age whether we like it or not.. sooner or later surgery is in the cards depending upon how severe the compression progresses... for now try your other interventions... believe me when you are completely consumed with pain you will scream loud enough and advocate for it and they will get the picture . After all a picture paints a 1000 words and any dr./surgeon will see your desperation and know the extent of your pain.... I learned to advocate pretty well at the end when I could no longer feel any other sort of life in my body but pain... and a well schooled dr saw and heard me and read the MRI and concurred.... I know it is really hard my dear....but everyone said when you need the surgery you will know how to make noise about it... it is true. meanwhile call on all of us for support...Nero
feelbad
10-06-2005, 09:49 AM
i totally agree with what the others are trying to say to you.in other words"be very careful on what you wish for"honestly,however bad you think your pain is right now, trust me when I say it CAN GET WORSE with and as a result of just having the surgery.i really really wish that I had waited and actually tried other therepys before I consented like right away to having my fusion done.one problem just kept leading to another and my pain levels were much higher post op than pre op,by as much as three points higher.I should have done other things first and used the surgery as the last resort,but I wanted that 'quick fix" so I could just get on with my life but instead,it stopped my life as I knew it,dead in its tracks.From what you have stated regarding your current status,i do feel that your docs are honestly doing the right thing here really.like fancylady stated the key word here is indeed "mild".if it said severe, then well, surgery might be the thing but for right now, honestly wait until you absolutely have no other choice.My husbands herniated c 5-6 was fused and he had absolutely no problems at all.he also was suffering horribly from a severe compression of two nerve roots.His fingers were always screaming in pain as well as upon any movement of his neck.He would actually be sound asleep and would move his head just a little and I would be awakened by this blood curdling yelp.it hurt just to watch him.but he actually waited too long,but being the big tough guy he just toughed it out and somehow figured it would just go away?if he ignored it long enough.The real key is timing.as far as the slight compression on your cord, compression is not always a good reason for surgery,really.Now if it said impingement of or severe compression,that would be a whole other story.chances are very good that with only the little bit of compression you are having it is probably not even actually part of your symptoms.i would be much more concerned about any sort of compression onto an actual nerve root than the spinal cord as it would really be causing some major pain and other neuro issues.i really do have to agree with the others here.please do not have any sort of surgery unless you really do not have any choice.You honestly could end up much much worse than you are now.Trust me completely on that.good luck.marcia
dootag
10-06-2005, 01:21 PM
Hi bouncearound,
The others are giving you great advice. Perhaps I can clarify the spinal compression issues for you. Don't obsess on them. The doc's and you will know immediately when if becomes a "problem." Examples of a "problem" that I've personally experienced (excluding pain) are body convulsions, violent release of bowels (usually at work in a suit in front of lots of people), uncontrollable jerking of the arm, etc. Nuff said. You get the idea.
I hope it works out for you soon.
dootag
The others are giving you great advice. Perhaps I can clarify the spinal compression issues for you. Don't obsess on them. The doc's and you will know immediately when if becomes a "problem." Examples of a "problem" that I've personally experienced (excluding pain) are body convulsions, violent release of bowels (usually at work in a suit in front of lots of people), uncontrollable jerking of the arm, etc. Nuff said. You get the idea.
I hope it works out for you soon.
dootag
notpain
10-06-2005, 08:23 PM
Well in spite of what everyone says above about surgery - which you don't want if you can avoid it - there still is a time and a place for surgery. Surgery DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN "FUSION". There are other ways to decompress the discs - nucleoplasty and endoscopic proceedures.
I have read over and over that once there is compression in the main spinal canal the nerve damage that CAN occure CAN become permanent. The CERVICAL spine and LUMBAR spine are two different beasts when it comes to cord problems. Lumbar pain can usually wait as the cord is more protected and usually not involved. This is not always the case in the Cervical Spine.
So yes maybe your doctors are killing you. I have 3 surgical consults this month and if any of them say I should have the surgery then it is probably going to happen - and I am very anti -surgery. Keep in mind MRI's do not always show the full story. There are cases where there is cord impingement (although rare) is caused by something not seen on the MRI.
My Physiatrist told me "I don't need an MRI for what I am going to do". I said, great write me the prescription anyways. So now here I am a year later and my spine has degenerated to the point that I now have stenosis in the Forminal Canals. I have more achey pain, and my balance is now gone.
IF IT WERE NOT FOR MY INSISTANCE ON THE NEW MRI (WHICH I PAID FOR OUT OF POCKET) NO DOCTOR WOULD EVEN TRY AND HELP ME BECAUSE MY OLD FILMS WERE NOT AS BAD.
So you can decide if you want to wait for your insurance company to decide what is best for your health, or you can move forward and take responsibility for your own health. You going to die or risk permanent damage because of their draggin their feet or ONE DOCTORS OPINON. I have seen several and seldom even get the same consensous. Doctors are "Body Mechanics", they don't know everything and they are not all created eqaul.
Yes surgery can fail, yes it is expensive and it may not work. What is important for you to do now if figure out what is best for YOU! Read the posts, listen to the experience of those that have been there and are still having problems, remember there are many who it works just fine for (who move on with their lives and seldom post) and just do what is best for you. No offense to any other posters intended.
I have read over and over that once there is compression in the main spinal canal the nerve damage that CAN occure CAN become permanent. The CERVICAL spine and LUMBAR spine are two different beasts when it comes to cord problems. Lumbar pain can usually wait as the cord is more protected and usually not involved. This is not always the case in the Cervical Spine.
So yes maybe your doctors are killing you. I have 3 surgical consults this month and if any of them say I should have the surgery then it is probably going to happen - and I am very anti -surgery. Keep in mind MRI's do not always show the full story. There are cases where there is cord impingement (although rare) is caused by something not seen on the MRI.
My Physiatrist told me "I don't need an MRI for what I am going to do". I said, great write me the prescription anyways. So now here I am a year later and my spine has degenerated to the point that I now have stenosis in the Forminal Canals. I have more achey pain, and my balance is now gone.
IF IT WERE NOT FOR MY INSISTANCE ON THE NEW MRI (WHICH I PAID FOR OUT OF POCKET) NO DOCTOR WOULD EVEN TRY AND HELP ME BECAUSE MY OLD FILMS WERE NOT AS BAD.
So you can decide if you want to wait for your insurance company to decide what is best for your health, or you can move forward and take responsibility for your own health. You going to die or risk permanent damage because of their draggin their feet or ONE DOCTORS OPINON. I have seen several and seldom even get the same consensous. Doctors are "Body Mechanics", they don't know everything and they are not all created eqaul.
Yes surgery can fail, yes it is expensive and it may not work. What is important for you to do now if figure out what is best for YOU! Read the posts, listen to the experience of those that have been there and are still having problems, remember there are many who it works just fine for (who move on with their lives and seldom post) and just do what is best for you. No offense to any other posters intended.
hugo eve
10-06-2005, 09:43 PM
hi
One Aspect that always bothered me is that a MRI is done in a prone position with head evenly looking forward. With me, in this position I had mild spinal compression and no symptoms, but if I looked up or bent forward and looked forward I became a mess and it would take three days before my motor skills, dizzyness and disorientation would settle back to my normal. This stopped me from doing basically anything and I considered that my standard of life was unacceptable and as such the risks of surgery were worth it. My report said mild compression!!
I have to say I went on instinct with surgery and allowed myself the option of bailing out at anytime if I picked up any instinctive warnings. I decided to have the surgery... no one else. Mind you I had already had one double fusion so had a lot of knowledge.
Get the best surgeon you can get. See many and go to the best hospital you can..... reduce your risks and listen to your innervoice.
Your first post does sound like you are at your witsend so maybe you should be considering moving forward....... "no pain no gain"
4 weeks post surgery...... and so glad I did it.
Hugz
Welded C456 12/03
Welded C67 9/05
One Aspect that always bothered me is that a MRI is done in a prone position with head evenly looking forward. With me, in this position I had mild spinal compression and no symptoms, but if I looked up or bent forward and looked forward I became a mess and it would take three days before my motor skills, dizzyness and disorientation would settle back to my normal. This stopped me from doing basically anything and I considered that my standard of life was unacceptable and as such the risks of surgery were worth it. My report said mild compression!!
I have to say I went on instinct with surgery and allowed myself the option of bailing out at anytime if I picked up any instinctive warnings. I decided to have the surgery... no one else. Mind you I had already had one double fusion so had a lot of knowledge.
Get the best surgeon you can get. See many and go to the best hospital you can..... reduce your risks and listen to your innervoice.
Your first post does sound like you are at your witsend so maybe you should be considering moving forward....... "no pain no gain"
4 weeks post surgery...... and so glad I did it.
Hugz
Welded C456 12/03
Welded C67 9/05
notpain
10-06-2005, 10:13 PM
They have a way of doing MRI's underload. The Orthopedic Surgeon I talked to said they were not a conclusive test either. The problem with MRI's is they take a static picture in time of your condition in a fixed position as stated by HugoEve. During the day the amount of fluids in our body and spinal discs varies based on hydration of the discs, and position of the head can aggrevate your condition. For me I do some mild traction and it helps for a while. Then about 10 minutes later I get up and feel slightly better and within an hour I'm back to normal crappy feeling. Same for when I sleep for brief periods. I try to "stay down" in bed in the mornings (I can not work) because although I don't feel good I feel better than when moving. The flip side to this is you have to move or your neck will become more stiff.
The worst part about MRI's is the cost and insurance companies unwillingness to do them at frequent intervals. You're spine can move and change a lot in the course of 6 months. It may or may not be healing in that time, but if it gets worse how will you know if the Doctor keeps viewing your old films but you experience new problems.
Crazy I paid about $1,200 for a C-Spine MRI, then I found another place which quoted $799 for my second, and another $630!!! Quite a difference. The $630 facility is practically new and uses a T1.5 GE Magnet. I did not get headphones and the machine was more closed so the experience was not much to talk about (The more expensive facility was better) but for HALF the money a few more minutes made it worth while. I hate MRI's as it is very difficult for me to hold still in one position for 10 minute scans while my neck is so messed up.
Again the most important thing you can do is LISTEN to your Body. Learn what you can about "conservative" treatments. I've been to two physical therapists and there is a world of difference between their approaches, diagnostics, and treatments. I hope the new one can help. People do recover without surgery - it's a tough battle but worth it if you can do it. Give yourself time, but don't overlook new pains and symptoms - find a doctor you can call (preferably who will actually come to the phone - tough in these days of managed healthcare) and keep him informed.
The worst part about MRI's is the cost and insurance companies unwillingness to do them at frequent intervals. You're spine can move and change a lot in the course of 6 months. It may or may not be healing in that time, but if it gets worse how will you know if the Doctor keeps viewing your old films but you experience new problems.
Crazy I paid about $1,200 for a C-Spine MRI, then I found another place which quoted $799 for my second, and another $630!!! Quite a difference. The $630 facility is practically new and uses a T1.5 GE Magnet. I did not get headphones and the machine was more closed so the experience was not much to talk about (The more expensive facility was better) but for HALF the money a few more minutes made it worth while. I hate MRI's as it is very difficult for me to hold still in one position for 10 minute scans while my neck is so messed up.
Again the most important thing you can do is LISTEN to your Body. Learn what you can about "conservative" treatments. I've been to two physical therapists and there is a world of difference between their approaches, diagnostics, and treatments. I hope the new one can help. People do recover without surgery - it's a tough battle but worth it if you can do it. Give yourself time, but don't overlook new pains and symptoms - find a doctor you can call (preferably who will actually come to the phone - tough in these days of managed healthcare) and keep him informed.
wimpette
10-07-2005, 07:44 PM
Hi Bouncedaround,
If every person had an MRI of their neck, with or without symptoms, most of them would show some degenerative change and the report would sound like yours. What is more important is what type of symptoms do you have, do they affect your activities of daily living and can they be controlled with pain meds?
Most symptoms resolve with time and you have to be patient. As others have said surgery is not the only answer and may produce other complications and problems. Regardless of how bad your symptoms are you should try to avoid surgery at all costs unless weakness because of nerve damage is getting worse and other options have failed.
I know this might not be what you want to hear but surgery is a last resort not to be taken lightly and your MRI on its own is not something for you to worry about.
W
If every person had an MRI of their neck, with or without symptoms, most of them would show some degenerative change and the report would sound like yours. What is more important is what type of symptoms do you have, do they affect your activities of daily living and can they be controlled with pain meds?
Most symptoms resolve with time and you have to be patient. As others have said surgery is not the only answer and may produce other complications and problems. Regardless of how bad your symptoms are you should try to avoid surgery at all costs unless weakness because of nerve damage is getting worse and other options have failed.
I know this might not be what you want to hear but surgery is a last resort not to be taken lightly and your MRI on its own is not something for you to worry about.
W
hugo eve
10-07-2005, 08:17 PM
Mmmm......
I do have a regret and that is in June 2003 I herniated my discs (C456). It took me approx two months to have a MRI test (and others.. stick needles in arm and legs and zap and record response...OWW!). It took me about another four months after exhaustive research before I had surgery. That six months did a whole lot of damage. In hindsight I should have gone straight to casualty/emergency and had fusion and decompression that day, and just maybe today my legs would work A okay. (mind you two years later they are so much better). Second time around I booked in surgery, got a MRI and then saw my surgeon... no mucking around.... and yay no further damage. There's no way I would risk comprising my cord, it is incredibly fragile and you can't get another.
This is my perspective!
Hugz
I do have a regret and that is in June 2003 I herniated my discs (C456). It took me approx two months to have a MRI test (and others.. stick needles in arm and legs and zap and record response...OWW!). It took me about another four months after exhaustive research before I had surgery. That six months did a whole lot of damage. In hindsight I should have gone straight to casualty/emergency and had fusion and decompression that day, and just maybe today my legs would work A okay. (mind you two years later they are so much better). Second time around I booked in surgery, got a MRI and then saw my surgeon... no mucking around.... and yay no further damage. There's no way I would risk comprising my cord, it is incredibly fragile and you can't get another.
This is my perspective!
Hugz