I see that there is a wealth of info here and I am in the scary phase of having my 14 year old daughter evaluated and diagnosed. She has been on an adolescent psych unit since Wednesday and this is her first hospitalization. As a mother this is such a scary road and I am hoping that some of you here can help me see through the fog that seems to have taken over.

My daughter over the past 4 months has become quite agitated, angry, frustrated and generally unhappy at home. She has a history of cutting, a first episode in 2004. She does well academically is an honor student but her behavior has changed quite significantly over the past 4 or 5 months.

Some of the behaviors that we see are extreme agitation, frustration in the home....feeling punished and as if there are too many rules. She has runaway from home and wants to live elsewhere and that is all she can think about. She has also participated in extremely sexual convos on the internet with boys at school and while on vacation often saving them as homework or in a journal page left torn out on her bed. Her appetite has increased significantly to the point that she never feels full. One teacher said that she stole a test from her office when she gets 100 on the tests and has written sexually explicit thoughts in Spanish on her test papers as well. She has lied and manipulated situations to the point where we were most recently investigated by CPS for a scratch on her face that she has since admitted she had lied about in order to be able to be removed from the home. She took half a bottle of advil 5 months ago and since she has been admitted she has admitted to cutting on at least 2 more occasions that we were unaware of (one time I questioned her about scratches on her arms which she said came from thorns while running through the woods which I had believed because she had run through the woods but she had lied) The cutting is often a result of having an argument with friends or family. She also admits to wanting to end her life and thinks about it often with a specific plan (this was talked about once she was admitted for evalutaion).

Our pediatrician, the school social worker, our daughter & ourselves agreed that the inpatient evaluation was the best way to go. However, our daughter after the second day in, begged us to take her home and stated that she was told by friends to "color things up" in order to be admitted so she could get away from us and that she was sorry & had learned her lesson. This worries me because how do we know what is true & what is fabricated....even the suicidal thoughts....how do we know for sure that she needs to even be on meds???

The psychiatrist at first felt that she had a mild depression and that the suicidal thoughts were impulsive. She wanted to start my daughter on Celexa after a day on the unit and we asked for her to hold off until our daughter were observed a little more. The next morning (yesterday) the doctor called stating that she saw more manic behavior (my daughter was happily skippping down the hall and giggily) and would not wnat to place her on Celexa because it could trigger more manic behavior (which was one of my concerns since they had not yet clearly diagnosed my daughter)

We all agreed that it was most important to control my daughters suicidal thoughts and the doctor decided that Abilify would be a better drug of choice. They are leaning towards a mild bipolar but have informed me that at this point in time during adolescence it is difficult to diagnose a particular disorder and that they are observing traits and treating them. Is this correct?? I was thinking that while my daughter was admitted they would have a definitive diagnosis by the time she was discharged but I am being told that they will not.....that they will discharge her and with continued evaluation by a psychologist and psychiatrst perscribing meds she will eventually be diagnosed. For now they intend to treat the traits and symptoms....most importatnly to lower the frustration, agitation and anger that may lead to impulsive suicidal tendencies/thoughts. They feel that the Abilify will do this.

I am a mom who is a "do not medicate unless absolutely necessary"!! :nono: I had no meds during both of my labors and have never given either of my kids a med unless absolutely necessary. And I do not want to start doing so either.

My older daughter went through similar teenage rebellion, not liking rules, impulsive type behavior, fighting, cursing you name it...it wasn't fun and she is 17 still making her share of mistakes but never had the suicidal thoughts/cutting. She was always wishing to be away from us as well in terms of feeling that she was punished too much but we honestly had simple guidelines and responsibilities as other parents do with compromising and the such. I am soo torn wondering if this is all part of the teenage behavior....I know that the suicidal thoughts must be taken seriously....but I am fighting this whole bipolar thing with every ounce of my being thinking that it is just a phase that she will get through and will end eventually with a little help along the way. Am I right??? Am I expecting too much??? Am I in denial or not seeing things clearly??? Please help me out to see what is up ahead for me.

The Abilify was started last night...she is on 2.5mg at bedtime. My daughter has a history of GERD (gastroesophogeal reflux disease) and said this morning on the phone that she had some heartburn with the med but otherwise didn't feel anything different. I am going to see if we can switch the timing to dinnertime in order to help her with the heartburn.

Any advice or support would be so much appreciated. It is a scary time for our family and it would be nice to know if we are doing the right thing and what may be up ahead on the road. I was told by a wonderful cyberfriend that this is the best place to be. And she never lies!!! :D :angel: (thanks, Ruth :wave: )

~ Goody

Hmmm, you said this all started about 4 or 5 months ago? I'd start looking for something that was tramatic that happened around that time. Was there a death in the family? Was she raped or molested? Did yall move? Divorce? She get into drugs?

If this all just came out of no where there had to have been something that triggered it. Figure out what that was and get her into therapy so she can deal with it. Also, you need to make sure you communicate with her. Ask her how she's feeling. When she says fine, keep pressing her. She wants you to be interested but she doesn't want you to know it.

I was DXed with BiPolar when I was 12 but I don't think I am. A lot of things happened that year as well as the next 2 and I think I was just trying to cope with it. I already had problems from being abused as a child and then when I was 12 alot of things happend all with in a span of a few months. My parents got divorced and my dad moved away, my great grandmother died who I was very close to, I was molested by my grandfather while we were vistiting them in GA, I had sex(raped since I was only 12) for the first time with a 20 year old man, and I had just started Jr. High and all of my friends turned against me because I stuck up for someone who they didn't like.

Anyway, it was a pretty rough year and I really didn't know how to deal with it all. My mom wasn't really there since she was dealing with her own stuff and I had no one to talk to since all of my "friends" had turned their backs on me. I started cutting on myself and tried to commit suicide a couple of times. I started having sex and acting very promiscuous. My grades starting falling, I ran away a few times. My parents took me to the hospital and then I went to an inpatient treatment facility. I was in and out of there and a few others for the next few years.

If the place she is at is a short term facility, get her out ASAP. All the ones that I went to were nothing but a "fun time" and I learned some bad things about how to cut and where and how to hide things from my parents, Lots of things I shouldn't have. They have so much free time in those that the only thing to do is talk to each other and watch movies. The doctors don't really care, all they want is the money. You can't really help someone in a week and they know that. They don't get too involved either and just hand out medicine like it's candy while throwing around labels to make it look legit.

Long term facilites are a little better since they know they will be able to get to know the child and go a little more in depth. They helped me a little bit but not enough to justify spending all the money my parents spent and taking away the years of my life. Regular therapy and my parents being receptive would have done wonders.

BTW some of the people who work in those facilities are predators. Not only in the short term but also the long term treatment centers. I was molested by a staffmember while I was at a long term treatment center. I was flirting with the guy, you know testing out my newfound sexual power and then when it got to where they wanted to do something I didn't want to. I was scared and had only had sex like 2 times and he was an older man. They didn't care at that point. Like I said I was very sexual since I had been molested as a child and that's what tends to happen to someone who has had that experience.

I prolly shouldn't be telling you some of this stuff. I don't want to scare you. I just wnat to let you know what I went through so maybe you can help your daughter to go a different path then I went.

It sounds like you are very caring and interested in making sure she is taken care of. She needs that right now more then ever. Find out what is going on with her. More then likely she wants to talk about it, you just gotta keep at it because sometimes kids don't think that their parents will understand. But do it in a way that doesn't intimidate her and try not to get frustrated.

I really hope that everything goes well with your family. I hope she has learned her lesson and straightens up but it's not going to happen over night. Get ready for the long haul. Hopefully it wont take that long but be prepared if it does. I will be praying for you and your family and I wish you good luck! :)

Also, if she just needs someone to talk to or if she needs some counciling just go that route. Don't medicate unless she is showing severe signs of Bipolar. Some of those meds have been shown to make children suicidal/homicidal and from personal experience it is true.

This might be a phase like you said. She could have gotten a new friend who is having problems and she might just be trying to act like her. There are all sorts of things that could be going on.

She also is a teenager and the hormones that are running through their bodies as well as the peer pressure is nothing to be disregarded. It's a tough time as I am sure you remember. Just try to understand where she is coming from.

She will try to manipulate and do everything she can to get what she wants. All teens do to some extent. You just gotta find a balance with trying to be understanding but have bounderies at the same time. Just remember to be consistant.

I went through this process from your daughters point of veiw so I know what she is feeling to some extent. If you have any questions, please, let me know and I will try to answer them as best as possible. I don't know everything but dealing with the mental health system for a few years taught me a little and I would love to be able to help someone who is going through something similar.

I have you and your family in my prayers and I hope you can work though this difficult time. Please, keep me updated on how you and your daughter are doing. :)

I see that there is a wealth of info here and I am in the scary phase of having my 14 year old daughter evaluated and diagnosed. She has been on an adolescent psych unit since Wednesday and this is her first hospitalization. As a mother this is such a scary road and I am hoping that some of you here can help me see through the fog that seems to have taken over.

My daughter over the past 4 months has become quite agitated, angry, frustrated and generally unhappy at home. She has a history of cutting, a first episode in 2004. She does well academically is an honor student but her behavior has changed quite significantly over the past 4 or 5 months.

Some of the behaviors that we see are extreme agitation, frustration in the home....feeling punished and as if there are too many rules. She has runaway from home and wants to live elsewhere and that is all she can think about. She has also participated in extremely sexual convos on the internet with boys at school and while on vacation often saving them as homework or in a journal page left torn out on her bed. Her appetite has increased significantly to the point that she never feels full. One teacher said that she stole a test from her office when she gets 100 on the tests and has written sexually explicit thoughts in Spanish on her test papers as well. She has lied and manipulated situations to the point where we were most recently investigated by CPS for a scratch on her face that she has since admitted she had lied about in order to be able to be removed from the home. She took half a bottle of advil 5 months ago and since she has been admitted she has admitted to cutting on at least 2 more occasions that we were unaware of (one time I questioned her about scratches on her arms which she said came from thorns while running through the woods which I had believed because she had run through the woods but she had lied) The cutting is often a result of having an argument with friends or family. She also admits to wanting to end her life and thinks about it often with a specific plan (this was talked about once she was admitted for evalutaion).

Our pediatrician, the school social worker, our daughter & ourselves agreed that the inpatient evaluation was the best way to go. However, our daughter after the second day in, begged us to take her home and stated that she was told by friends to "color things up" in order to be admitted so she could get away from us and that she was sorry & had learned her lesson. This worries me because how do we know what is true & what is fabricated....even the suicidal thoughts....how do we know for sure that she needs to even be on meds???

The psychiatrist at first felt that she had a mild depression and that the suicidal thoughts were impulsive. She wanted to start my daughter on Celexa after a day on the unit and we asked for her to hold off until our daughter were observed a little more. The next morning (yesterday) the doctor called stating that she saw more manic behavior (my daughter was happily skippping down the hall and giggily) and would not wnat to place her on Celexa because it could trigger more manic behavior (which was one of my concerns since they had not yet clearly diagnosed my daughter)

We all agreed that it was most important to control my daughters suicidal thoughts and the doctor decided that Abilify would be a better drug of choice. They are leaning towards a mild bipolar but have informed me that at this point in time during adolescence it is difficult to diagnose a particular disorder and that they are observing traits and treating them. Is this correct?? I was thinking that while my daughter was admitted they would have a definitive diagnosis by the time she was discharged but I am being told that they will not.....that they will discharge her and with continued evaluation by a psychologist and psychiatrst perscribing meds she will eventually be diagnosed. For now they intend to treat the traits and symptoms....most importatnly to lower the frustration, agitation and anger that may lead to impulsive suicidal tendencies/thoughts. They feel that the Abilify will do this.

I am a mom who is a "do not medicate unless absolutely necessary"!! :nono: I had no meds during both of my labors and have never given either of my kids a med unless absolutely necessary. And I do not want to start doing so either.

My older daughter went through similar teenage rebellion, not liking rules, impulsive type behavior, fighting, cursing you name it...it wasn't fun and she is 17 still making her share of mistakes but never had the suicidal thoughts/cutting. She was always wishing to be away from us as well in terms of feeling that she was punished too much but we honestly had simple guidelines and responsibilities as other parents do with compromising and the such. I am soo torn wondering if this is all part of the teenage behavior....I know that the suicidal thoughts must be taken seriously....but I am fighting this whole bipolar thing with every ounce of my being thinking that it is just a phase that she will get through and will end eventually with a little help along the way. Am I right??? Am I expecting too much??? Am I in denial or not seeing things clearly??? Please help me out to see what is up ahead for me.

The Abilify was started last night...she is on 2.5mg at bedtime. My daughter has a history of GERD (gastroesophogeal reflux disease) and said this morning on the phone that she had some heartburn with the med but otherwise didn't feel anything different. I am going to see if we can switch the timing to dinnertime in order to help her with the heartburn.

Any advice or support would be so much appreciated. It is a scary time for our family and it would be nice to know if we are doing the right thing and what may be up ahead on the road. I was told by a wonderful cyberfriend that this is the best place to be. And she never lies!!! :D :angel: (thanks, Ruth :wave: )

~ Goody

There could be something bothering her, what's wrong with a little psychotherapy? Why would she want to get away from you? I'd investigate that more.

Also, there is a possibility of drug or alcohol abuse that could cause such behaviors....alcohol, pot, other drugs are a mix of stimulants and depressants, uppers and downers that mess up brain chemistry and can cause things like mania, depression and cutting so I don't know if she's involved in things like that or will admit she is into those things. Also, the withdrawal periods inbetween use can cause simular behaviors.

Thanks, Jennfaery and Jennita. We are more confused than ever. We just returned from a visit....our daughter had her first grounds pass for an hour. We brought our dog up picked up some dunkin donuts and slurpees and went to see her. The entire hour she became argumentative bringing up how she has no problems, how the nurse on the unit even asks why she is there, and that there is nothing wrong with her. She indicated that we put her there....we reminded her that she was in on the decision and had okayed it when at school with the social worker. We told her if it was true that she did not belong there that the doctor would have discussed that with us and would have her discharge home planned. We talked about wanting to have her home she immediately talked about too many rules punishment and we told her that we would be talking with the social worker tomorrow about formulating a contract to make it easier to live at home. She went on to say how her boyfriend & his mom were coming tomorrow to visit....we went over how that would not be permitted without us being there, that only parents were allowed visitation but we would bring her BF with us. She said that she wanted the BF's mom "Cheryl" to visit too. We stressed how we throught that the problems she was having with us needed working out and that we wanted her home and understood how she wanted to see her BF but it was not necessary to see the mom as well. She went on to say that perhaps it would be best to live elsewhere, that she wanted to divorce us as soon as she was 16 and could and perhaps she could go to a group home and be adopted. We told her that wasn't what we wanted but that it seemed to be her agenda no matter what...she asked us to bring her back to the unit that she didn't want to argue anymore and to please bring her back. I started to cry and told her that we didn't want the visit to go this way but the way that I saw it was that she no longer wanted to be with us and that perhaps taking a few days to herself would be best and to call us when she wanted to see us, that we loved her very much. I told her until we could work things out it might be best to have the next few visits to ourselves when she was ready. And we brought her back to the unit.

We have a meeting tomorrow with the doctor in the morning and the social worker for a family meeting. I am exahusted and so is my husband. It seems that the med hasn't done a thing to decrease her agitation/frustration. The entire time it seemed that she was angry, misinterpreting things, and totally frustrated.

We had drug testing done and everything was negative. As far as changes go we lost a great grandmother 2 years ago followed by a great uncle she was close to a few weeks after that. She was upset by the loss and her frist cutting episode took place shortly after that. Around 5 months ago we moved at her request to our summerhome.....she was happier here and had developed more friendships and begged to start high school here. We still have our primary home and have asked her if she would like to go back and she gets upset at the suggestion. Her big sis moved out around the same time to go pursue college and this has been an adjustment as well. Otherwise everything has been fine.

Jennfaery...I must say that what you wrote did concern me as well as my husband. I have to say that the thought of past molestation has crossed my mind especially with the hypersexual activity. The doctor says that that goes with bipolar as well on the manic side. Can I ask how old you are now?? Your advice is much appreciated.....the patients in the unit are definitley of concern since they seem to have more problems than my daughter. One boy who is her friend now is there for just trying to make bombs (according to my daughter). His convos do concern me and it seems that she is fitting in much more than the day she bedgged us to get her out of there (which was her first day)

I do not see any effects (positive) from the Abilify and it looks as if our daughter does not want to come home and would rather stay there. We think the break will do us all good and have left the ball in her court in order to work that out.

I do not like the way our visit went and am so upset that my daughter doesn't want to live with us anymore. Jennita if you would like to see why go to the parenting board where I intiially made a post. That may answer your questions more....the thread was closed since I brought things over here.

Thanks for the help.....I could really use the support....I just can't stop crying because it feels as if I have lost my daughter.

~ Goody

You haven't lost you daughter, sweetie. I know this is a difficult time but you will get through it. She will grow up and realize that everything she did was to her own detriment. I will just take some time for her to realize it.

If she has been abused or raped, hopefully it will come out in therapy. If it was me, I would get her out of there and get her into intensive one on one therapy where she would go either every day or every other day. Unless, she tries to hurt herself again or someone else, then you should hospitalize her.

The kids that are usually in these kinds of places have many more problems then you could probably imagine and she will learn things she shouldn't. Most of the kids in there have done this a few times and know the ins and outs. Like I said I learned how to do things I shouldn't have. Like being taught how to distract the staff, so my friends could get into the medicine and go make out or have sex with the boys on the unit and vice versa. How to commit suicide if I really wanted to. Like which way to cut and what pills to take. Stuff like that. Like how I could harm myself and people wouldn't know.

I also met a few people that I should have never had contact with. Once I got out of the short term facility, I was able to contact them and find out where they lived so I could run away to their house and my parents would never know where I was.

The short term places I went to was nothing but a vacation or fun time because the staff didn't really care and niether did the docs. They just wanted their money and handed out medicine like it was free. So we got to run around and play games and socialize with very little attention or supervision from the staff. I went to 3 different short term facilities and all 3 were like that. Even some of the long term ones were like that too.

From what I am hearing about your daughter, it doesn't sound like shes bipolar. But I am not a doctor. Alot of kids act like this because they have issues they don't know how to deal with. They have all these new feelings that they are experiencing, they think their parents are out to get them, some have things that were very tramatizing and no one to really talk to about it. When a person has all these things going on and no where to get these feelings out, one coping mechanism is stuffing it inside. That's what it sounds liek to me. All this stuff has happened and she hasn't had a safe place to put it. So she keeps it inside and eventually it builds up and builds up and then you just can't take it anymore and you start to do things like cut on yourself or run away because you just don't know how to deal with it. It's like stuffing something into a jar, that jar is only so big. Eventually you can't put anything else in there and that's when things just start to come out on their own. It's just like it explodes out and you can't control it anymore.

I really don't know what you should do since I don't know everything about the situation. If she started cutting on herself 2 years ago this has been a long time coming. She needs intensive one on one counsiling which she will not get in this place. She doesn't need to be around kids who have way more severe problems then her. She could possibly learn how to fake it and get what she wants. That's what I did anyway.

I am 23 now. I am married to a wonderful man and I have 3 beautiful children. My stepson, is about to be 5, my oldest daughter will be 3, and our newest addition will be 5 weeks in a couple of days. :)

I now understand the absolute hell I know I put my family though. There are alot of things I wish I wouldn't have done but I wouldn't be the person I am today without it.

BTW, don't stop seeing her. I know it seems like she doesn't want you there but she really does. She wants you there now more then ever and is probably saying most of the things she is saying to hurt you. Not because she hates you but because she is feeling really hurt right now and wants you to understand how she is feeling. Don't stop seeing her. Go everyday if you can. Even when she tells you never to come again, go anyway. Please keep me inforned. I'll be praying for yall. :)

Jennfaery ~ Thanks for the response...my husband would like to go pick our daughter up now after reading it....yes the patients have more problems than my daughter, my only concern is going without having her med adjusted....I do feel that she needs help in regard to that since she has admitted wanting to take her life and has told the psychiatrist of a plan to get to an artery while cutting and also of jumping out of a moving vehicle. She already took a bottle of advil and I do not want her coming home without addressing that real concern.....I am torn. We do meet with her doctor tomorrow....right now there are only 6 patients including my daughter with more staff members, so I think that she is okay. I do agree that I do not wnat her to pick up other behaviors....the roomate she is with seems quiet and okay having lost a father and not dealing with that too well.

We have a family counseling tomorrow....I think I am going to push with the doctor to get her out of there and in family counselling come up with a contract to make life at home tolerable. We need to have a therapist appt set before they will even discharge her, so I will work on that tomorrow. What you say makes perfect sense, however, I need to know that she is safe from harming herself and also from runnning away.

Any other thoughts....will leaving her in a few more days really be bad?? She is on day # 4. Thanks again for being here and I am glad that things worked out so well for you...it does give me some hope. ~ Goody

PS ~ I am debating whether to call her....what do you think??? Or should we just take the break and wait & see what happens tomorrow after meeting with the doctor???

Go ahead and call her. :) She needs your support now more then ever!

I was reading your other post in the parenting forum. I think most of the things she is doing is pretty normal. She is feeling more popular now that she is at the new school, she has a boyfriend, she is able to be more social. All this adds up to her kind of "acting up" so to say.

Now that she is there, I would NOT just take her out. She could see it as mastering the manipulation she was trying to pull whenever you guys are there. Man, it's a tough decision to make. Since she is already there and should be getting out in a few days, I don't think there is much more damage that could be done since she's already been there for a bit.

I know this is going to sound crazy but cutting is a new fade going around for some reason. It's that whole tortured teen thing. She probably saw some other people doing it and thought it would be cool. But you have to be careful with it because sometimes it can develop into a problem if it isn't taken care of right away.

I still have urges sometimes when things are just too stressful to cut on myself. When some one does that, it causes pain and your brain releases endorphins and it kind of helps you cope with whatever is going on. It is NOT a healthy way to deal with stress. It leaves scars that will never go away.

It really makes me sad sometimes when my daughter grabs my arms and touches the scars and asks me "What happened, Mommy?" It just breaks my heart that she sees that and that one day I will have to tell her what I did to myself. I just tell her that mommy had a boo boo a long long time ago and that it's all better now. She doesn't ask anything else aboput it now but I'm sure in the future that answer won't satisfy her curiosity and I will have to tell her the truth.

Anyway, I think that she does need some therapy but she should not be placed in another in patient program again unless she try to harm herself or others. Maybe print some of this stuff out and have her read it? You could also write her a letter? Bring her some flowers? My mom did that for me one time and it really made me feel like she cared. Just e there for her and let her know you care. Don't leave her alone right now. She my tell you that and actually may feel like that sometimes but deep down her wants you there right by her side.

She is growing up now. It's a difficult time to be a teenager. You have to realize that she is going to make mistakes and lie and do things she shouldn't. She's testing her boudaries and the world around her. That's just being a teenager. You have to give her a little room to make her own mistakes and let her learn from it. She needs to have free time but she has to understand that there has to be a balance.

Also, do yall sit down together at dinner time? If not, I would make this a regular occurance. Kids who have the time together every night and are able to talk with their parents a little about their day tend to be more well balanced. If you find it tough to talk about things, play a game or something. Like high and lows. What was your igh point of the day and low point. There are alot of other things you can do to make dinner time.

I'll get back with you later. Kids are drving hubby nuts. LOL Anyway, go ahead and give her a call. :)

Jennfaery ~ Thanks again for the shoulder. I agree that we need to follow this out. When we met with the doctor tomorrow morning we should have a better idea of how much longer she will be staying. The thing that bothers me is that I do see how she is falling into bonding with the other patients...the first day she wanted out of there because they were all crazy and now she calls them her friends. Even my other daughter commented to me on how happy she sounds there with all of her new friends. So this does concern me quite a bit. I will make sure I get rid of any phone numbers she brings home with her......a patient that was discharged called the patient phone to talk to everyone and I could see my daughter doing that as well and will have to monitor her phone calls upon her return home.

The cutting I saw as a fad....my daughter told me the first time she did it that she did it because others did and it was no big thing. I decided to keep an eye on things and since she started up again and has told the psychiatrist that she is looking for an artery I am quite concerned about that.

Funny how you mentioned the scars....I talked to my daughter about that being something she may regret when she is a mother in the future having to explain the scars to her own daughter.

As I have had time to think about it, I see how my daughter's words were meant to hurt me in a way that she feels hurt. I am glad that I told her that I was able to cry rather than hurt myself and tell her with words how her words hurt me and hoped that she would be able to see that as a healthy way of doing things. She said that she does cry when she cuts and I told her that it would be good to get her to the point of crying and explaining what it was inside her that hurt her so much.

Yes we do sit down to dinner together and tonite with her empty spot there we prayed grace and felt so empty without her there. As my husband & I said grace he went on to add..."And please take care of our Erin while she is not here with us. Take her into the palm of Your hand and prtect her from any harm and bring her home to us soon." I was so comforted by his words and I called her shortly afterwards to tell her I loved her and didn't like the way our visit had gone and apologized telling her that we would see her tomorrow. She cut the convo short by saying that others were waiting for the phone.

I am hoping that tomorrow will be a better day.

Thanks again.....Goody :angel:

I'm here Goody:wave:just like always my friend.
Just enough time for a hug - and a reminder that IF Erin is bipolar - - her behavior IS a symptom, not something done to hurt you. Hard I know when she is saying such hurtful things. Like Jenn said, DO continue to see her as often as possible. If she was in the hospital with appendicitis wouldn't you be there? Of course!
And a note that from what I understand, cutting is ALWAYS serious. I'd really try to get to the bottom of the lack of coping skills or whatever is the cause of that.
There is a self-injury board here & although I know that you probably feel like you've been at too many new boards it may help to browse thru there for some insight...
Until I get a moment to sit down & type more, you are in my prayers and Erin DOES know you love her - but may not be able to "snap out of it"...
Hugs,
Ruth
:angel:

I think the advice here is great you've been getting. Just an observation on my part, it seems she is very co-dependant on having friends, whether at school or anywhere. I noticed she made alot of friends quickly at the new school, and now at the hospital she's at. I think having them helps her self-esteem. I didn't get the chance to read through all the posts on the parenting board, but I did see one where you mentioned she cut because of an arguement with her friends at school, indicating how important she feels they are to her.

Problem with depending on others for your own self worth is that sometimes you will do things that aren't healthy for you just to fit in or be accepted..so I still think the very swift accumulation of a new boyfriend and friends at her new school meant she most likely did something to fit in very quickly. Now, I've also read that most good girls/A students that take a sudden swan dive into bad girl/low grades happens alot when they are introduced to drugs. I know you had a drug screen done, but alot of drugs can clear the body before such tests.

Pot has a very short half-life, for example, can be gone in just a couple of hours. I just get the feeling it all started with her new boyfriend and new friends at school, of which could possibly be a group who indulges into drugs. Drugs such as pot will make even the brightest person alot duller, it does effect motivation, makes people lazy in general and effects cognitive learning.

I'm just saying I'm very suspicious drugs are involved, but mainly because of the boyfriend and group of friends as a way of fitting in and being accepted. Most clics I remember when I went to school that had the "druggies" were very tight, very close, sort of a club. Really can make a person feel like they are part of something special, or like a family so much that they don't see how much more important it is to not harm themselves for the sake of having "friends".

And unfortunately, parents are the biggest road block, they stand in the way of this and probably this is why she wants to get away from your rules because they don't let her be free to do what and with who she wants.

But she doesn't realize the road she's been on will definately lead to mental illness, which is no real freedom at all but endless dependancy on doctors, drugs or even sometimes being forced into hospitalization that may not always be as pleasant as the one she's in right now.

Was she ever the type to make friends easily before? Did she not fit in or have alot of friends in childhood? Was she overweight?

I'm just thinking there has to be a reason why all her self-worth and happiness seems to depend on how many friends or if she is sexually attractive to boys. I think she feels like she isn't worth much without the approval of others. Look how she feels about the people with her now, for example, they have something in common(mental diagnosis) and they no doubt accept her into their group, which seems to again make her very happy.

She just doesn't seem to have much self worth, I mean, she hurts herself in reaction to how others treat her, and only when she is "fitting in "and having friends is she truly happy, like now with her new-found friends at the hospital who have accepted her into the group, or the clic.

Poor girl doesn't realize that when you have a loving family, they'll ultimately be the ones to catch you when you fall the hardest; sometimes friends dissapper when the things get tough in life, while family usually will stay to help you fight the battle intil the end. Investing in friends IMHO is a bad investment compared to family.

That is, if one is fortunate to have a good family, good parents... and it sounds like your daughter does.....maybe someday she'll get it, lets' hope.

OOOPS...double post.... :wave:

Hello, All :wave: Jennita you are soooo right in my getting great advice here as well as support......I cannot thank you guys enough for holding me up during this time that I find it so hard to stand on my own two feet. I feel as if I am somewhat able to do so but the reality is that I can stumble and fall so easily still. And knowing I am able to come here makes it easy to make sure that doesn't happen!!! Thank God!!! :angel:

As far as your concerns, I do not dismiss them totally and know that drug/alcohol use shouldn't be ruled out, however, my instincts are that it is not what is causing my daughter's symptoms right now. I DO agree that her self worth does need working on which I am praying will be addressed in therapy.

Regarding some questions you brought up.....my daughter was always extremely social since she was a little girl...sometimes even too much for her own good!!! ;) Alot of the time she did well in school but when going to those teacher conferences it was a repetition of hearing how great she does academically but there was a problem keeping Erin from talking/interacting with others. We just saw that as part of her personality and something we just had to accept, always keeping an eye on it making sure it didn't interfere with her grades and other aspects of her life. There were times we thought she was borderline ADHD, however, she never tested positive for that. (Funny when I have researched Bipolar it is said that it fits in with ADHD) Erin made friends easily, however, when she got to the Junior High level, her friendships were much more tight knit and confined to one or two close friends. As far as weight, she was always underweight and still is.

I do agree that she holds friendships as being extremely important.....they are her everything now but I do remember that being a part of my teenage years as well. Who wanted to be with their parents when there were friends around??? :D And yes, she invests alot into that, way too much IMHO. I believe she loves the new school she is in because there are only 100 students in her grade level and she knows every one of them and loves the fact that she does. At this point in time she has 10 friends that she is extremely close to both male & female. And then there's the BF, a grade ahead of her, who doesn't really get along with her friends. I have to say that my daughter balances that quite well realizing that dropping her friends for a BF is not in her best interest. And the BF on her plate right now could be a problem emotionally to balance overall and I am praying that he will fizzle out....there is talk that he may be moving away soon which would surely be a godsend!!! :) Eliminating him, as much as I would like to, would only upset the applecart...our plan is to make him our ally in keeping Erin healthy. He will be closely monitored at the same time.

Anyway....yesterday I finally saw the rainbow coming through the clouds. WE met with the psychiatrist who told us that she believes Erin has a mild case of Bipolar II the least severe form and one in which she will most likely outgrow. She told us that this comes about when the hormonal surges place such an extreme stress on the body that it offsets the balance of seratonin and dopamine levels in the body causing cycling of moods in such a way that it interferes with thought processes and overall well being. She went on to say that by using a mood stabilizer such as Abilify and a touch of an antidepresssant like Celexa, it brings things back into balance until the hormone levels level off a little more. She said she expects Erin to need the assistance of these meds for anywhere from 6-8 months at which time she hopes to wean her off. She told us that the meds were considered to be extrememly safe in her opinion compared to most others and that Erin, in conjunction with thereapy, would get through this. I have to say that my husband & I were quite relieved after meeting with the doctor. She told us her plan was to double up on the Abilify to 5mg and add in the Celexa 5mg. She said she expected to have Erin discharged home within a few days and to have a 6 hour home pass into effect for today.

We saw Erin a few minutes afterwards....she stood back and seemed apprehensive about seeing us there. I gave her a letter I had written reminding her of how much she was loved and how we wanted her to be back home with us again. I also reminded her of a time a few months back when she snuggled with me at church and how I would like to see us get back to being able to do so again. I acknowledged the hurt & pain that she was in and told her that I was hoping and praying that it would be relieved soon so that she could be happy again and that we would always be there for her no matter what.

Later on, we arrived early to see Erin before the social worker. I wanted her to hear about the new med that would be given from me and not anyone else. I told her about it and I could see her concerns about what she had heard from the other patients about them drugging you up written all over her face. I shared with her how I had spoken to her a few weeks ago about her possibly needing help through the teenage years, that sometimes there were physical or chemical problems that made it more difficult to get through these years and that we should check it out and see if there was a way to help her out. That is when I suggested we go to her Peidatrician for a complete physical to have things checked out. And that now, from the doctor's evaluation of her, she did have a chemical imbalance that required some meds to balance things out and that it would be needed only temporarily to help her through. I reminded her how since she was in my uterus (which my daughter indicated was TMI ;) ) that I made sure that she was protected from having any unnecessary meds or anything that would potentially bring her harm to her introduced into my body. And how I still felt that way.....and how now I saw the meds she was on as a way to perhaps not only save her life but also assist her through a very rough time that her body couldn't do on it's own. She seemed to understand more and we went on to play a game of quarters which brought the first smile to my daughter's face that I hadn't seen in such a long time!! :D Did I ever tell you what a beautiful smile it is...it's one of those smles that lights up the room and when she smiles her eyes radiate her soul to everybody around her. My how I have missed being witness to that!!!

Anyway, we all went on to meet with the social worker and discussed our grounds pass that went terrible the previous day. We all agreed that it sucked and we discusssed how it turned out that way....how each of us was so looking forward to it and how quickly things went downhill. Erin admitted to getting agitated with most things we said, of misinterpreting some things and how she might have changed things particualry her behavior to make the outcome a little bit better. And we did the same. We discussed the home pass and the social worker pointed out how it was to be spent with parents only because the way he saw it she had no probelms to work on with the friends, that it was a form of therapy in which she could work on relating to us, her parents. And we started initiating a home contract and will finish that up today before the home pass. By the end of the session we were all laughing and relieved....much was accomplished and getting Erin home seemed more on the horizon whereas the previous day it didn't. We know that there is much to be done in terms of the recovery to our family unit but I do believe that it is possible now that we all have a clearer understanding of the problem.

So today we are looking forward to our time with our daughter.....we plan on taking her home to shave her legs (that is her first request ;) ). We will then bake a cake that is part of one of her assignments for her culinary arts classs at school and she can bring it back with her to the unit. We will then go out for dinner together, Erin's choice, and ad lib it from there. Just being with her is something we are so looking forward to. :bouncing:

I must admit that I am a little bit nervous....I think we all are because we have that fear that things will revert back to how they were before Erin was hospitalized, of her running away and doing everything in her power to get a way....however, I am hoping that with this fresh start she will truly return home to us in her heart and realize that we do love her and have her best interests always on our minds as her parents who love her so much.

I will keep you posted....please say a few prayers for us that all continues to go well.....I really could use them. And thanks again for standing by me through this terrible time that I hope someday to look back upon as a distant memory!!!

~ Goody :angel:

Goody:wave:I am totally confused!
I have never ever never heard of ANYone "outgrowing" Bipolar Disorder. I am unable to find such a statement in any of the books I have or on the internet. I would be interested in finding out what studies they are referring to. If she were to "outgrow" it, my first assumption would be that it wasn't Bipolar Disorder to begin with.
Any type of anti-depressent OTHER than an SSRI would be better in my book but I'd add that better that she is on a mood stabilizer also if that's the only anti-depressant they will consider.

I'm honestly a little uncomfortable about the outgrowing statements, and certainly am no doctor - I sure don't want to undermine any treatment!

But do keep searching for every bit of unconditional mom love that you have. I've told many people over the years that anyone who loves someone with Bipolar Disorder needs to have Skin of Teflon.
It's true... I remember when I was hooked on the Dune Trilogy (It's probably a Quintolgy by now) there was a mantra they would say about fear. A bipolars moods are like fear. You have to let it flow over and through you.

The hugs you get to keep...
Ruth
:angel:

Hi, Ruth :wave: I was along the same thinking as you regarding the Bipolar however, when I brought that question up with the psychiatrist she said in kids like Erin it does run it's course that way. Again she said, that time would tell but that is what she saw in terms of her experience and treatment. Anyway, my dear cybertwin...I did express her adding the Celexa and my concern of it's triggering Bipolar III....the doctor said that yes that is certainly true when the med is introduced prior to stabilization of any manic tendencies. I am sure worried now that my cybertwin is concerned and do want you to interject so we can act as a team on all of this.

Funny how Erin just called me and told me the meds were making her extremely sleepy and I reassurred her that that was perfectly normal, that there was a period of adjustment and that the doctor would make sure that they they were adjusted better before she went home. And.....Ruth except for the grogginess, my Erin is back!!! :bouncing: She told me that she had something that was worrying her , that while speaking to another friend yesterday on the phone that she heard that her BF was mad at her and was interested in another girl. My heart sank because she has enough stress but it took a leap because she was able to tell me. :bouncing: For so long I had to pull things out of Erin and try every magical trick in the book to find out what it was that she was holding so depp inside. Like another poster said....it's like a jar that can hold nothing else.....Erin is now able to keep that jar from filling up too much and I am thrilled!! :D Well, the words of reassurance came so naturally and I told her that I would be up soon and we would talk more about it and that everything would be okay and to worry about herself and not what was hapening on the outside...that most likely she was hearing a rumor and even if it were true Mommy would help her through it. She thanked me and told me I made her feel better. :D

Okay, Ruth....help me do the research...I will of course express my concerns with the doctor once again and get some reassurrance for us both. With you & I as a team....Erin is going to be okay!! I know He put you there for me to help me through this and that He is watching over my baby!!

(((HUGS))) ~ Goody :angel:

UPDATE: I called Erin's nurse who explained to me that my concerns about the Celexa were unwarranted, that often it was perscribed by primary care physicians who didn't monitor it closely and just gave higher doses. She explained that it wouldn't throw anyone into a Bipolar disorder but would trigger a manic episode if introduced prior to a mood stabilizer. And she did say that there ARE forms of mild Bipolar I that ARE temporary. The nurse said she has a name of a book that she has for our family that will help out significantly. zi will update you more later my dear worried cybertwin. Any other info you find would be much appreciated since I am new to all of this and fully trust YOU!!

It is true that if you are on a mood stabilizer an SSRI is less likely to trigger mania.
It's just that why trot out the new SSRI's if there is an MAOI or Tricyclic that will still do the job.
And personally, I would give the Abilify time to kick in and see if there is still a NEED for an anti-depressant. If she has a form of Bipolar and a mood stabilizer will do the job (I just take lithium which doesn't seem to be as effective in children) I'm not sure I'd add Celexa - an SSRI type - which includes specific warnings about suicide in adolescents.

I put "abilify children" into a search engine and found a good site regarding the Bipolar Child. I believe it is a book and there is an online newsletter too. It mentions the side effect of extreme tiredness but that appears to subside after a few days. Constipation can be an issue so lots of stuff to drink is a good idea. It's a good idea anyway so that's not so bad if it is the chief side effect. Using Abilify with children is fairly new so they don't have all the information yet, but no weight gain problem is ALWAYS a plus with teenage girls.

I'm not discounting the fact that she has expressed suicidal thoughts. I was 16 when I went to the medicine cabinet and swallowed everything in it. Then, I went directly to the phone and called my Dad at work and told him what I had done. Guess I knew I needed help and it was serious but knew no other way to get the messge across.

I do wish I could preserve my own anonymity and yet get my Mom on here to telll you how my illness affected her. Bless her heart, her mom was Bipolar at a time when it wasn't recognized well and then her daughter has it and isn't diagnosed correctly for years. She's gone through alot - carries alot of feelings to this day about my illness and the years of intermittant hospitalization, wrong medications, SOS calls.

And yet, here I am in a good marriage (honest!), able to work, have good friends:wave: - and she never once let me feel like there were strings attached to my behavior for her unconditional love. We are closer than close to this day. Some extra bonding I suppose from when I couldn't go to school for a year at a time.
I wonder what my life would have been like if I HAD gotten the right help at age 13.
I still believe that I am who I am today BECAUSE I am Bipolar - and that's not so half bad, you know??
Hugs, big & small,
Ruth
:angel:

You would be surprized how drug use, even when discontinued, still effects the brain function for quite awhile. Withdrawal-type symptoms can linger for months, which is why I was still making the connection even though it was obvious any drugs or alcohol were long gone by the time she went to the hospital.

Hormone levels and brain neurotransmitters can get out of whack even from short use. Psych drugs can be used as a temporary help; I would keep an eye on dosages and effectiveness since a sure sign of tolerance(downregulation of brain receptors) is when doses become ineffective and sometimes that can result in withdrawal type symptoms as well.

As long as the dosages stay small, you most likely will do ok here in the long run. I agree with some others here, although I don't have alot of knowledge about bi-polar, I never heard of it being "temporary"!

Now yeah, severe hormonal changes, I've heard those can be temporary. Did they ever test her for hormone levels? I would think that would be logical if they are blaming hormones. They have no biological tests for chemical imbalances of the brain but thankfully they have hormone tests available.

Chemical imbalance is still a theory and not an exact science. Many, many things upset our well-being; chemicals, emotions, malnutrition (if she is thin, maybe a sign of poor nutrition although you can have malnutrition while overweight).

Nutrition is very important. Doctors never tell you that the amino acids in complete proteins are what actually create our vital neurotransmitters, those ones we need to stay "balanced", whereas drugs just manipulate the brain. I'm not sure if they know it or not.

Chemicals, drugs, alcohol can all deplete the body of the nutrients we need for protein synthesis. So don't just depend on the meds, make sure she is eating well and taking whole food supplements and omega 3 oils(good for brain function).

I'm glad things are getting better, maybe it will all work out... I really hope so! :)

Hey there Goody,

Your 'cyber-twin' asked me if I could have a read of your posting so I could offer you my humble opinion. It is a lot to read through and comment on in just one viewing.

Rather than suggest a half-hearted opinion, can I think this one over and maybe get back to you later?

I have a few ideas concerning your daughter's moods, but please bear with me, thanks.

Hedge ~

Hedge ~ Thanks so much for popping in!!! :D Anyone my "cyber twin" points in my direction is more than welcome!!! ;)

I really appreciate your taking the time to digest my thread,....it is alot of info and when it comes to putting down all that has transpired over the past 4-5 months it is difficult to keep things short. I have a thread on the parenting board which pretty much leads into this one as well so you may wish to take a peek at that one too in order to get a full picture of what is happening.

My daughter was discharged home yesterday and although an exciting day it was also one in which we all were exhausted from the week that was now behind us. The hospital was a good 45 minute drive from home and accommodating all the visits and meetings with the doctors and social workers took some wear and tear on us.

Erin was energetic when we arrived to pick her up....she smiled and said her goodbyes to all the staff & patients. As we began our drive home her mood seemed to become more sullen....she brought up the porblems with her boyfriend and we listened to her concerns about that. We tried to gently support her and offer advice as her parents acknowledging her pain and didsappointment as well as the stress this must be putting on her just being released from the hospital. She talked about it and we told her that in a good relationship, whether it be with a friend, parent, or boyfriend each one would be spportive of her at this time and try not to put any added pressure upon her. She quieted down and drifted off and on to sleep.

When she got home her day/evening was full of phone calls of catching up with her friends. When she came down to dinner I couldn't help but notice two new piercings in her ears (she had done three self piercings while over a friend's house a few months back, one in the cartiledge which we were quite upset about since she had done it without our permission knowing that we were not open to a second piercing in each ear at the time) Well at dinner, she was sporting 5 piercings in her left ear, two of which were cartiledge, and three in the right ear. :eek: We made mention of how this made us feel and that her 'fresh start' at home probably made her feel at liberty to display her past infractions. We told her how we thought she was using that and that since it was her first day home we thought it would be fair to display 2 piercings in each ear since we didn't like how it looked and how shocking it was to us. Did I handle that one okay??? My daughter told me how she was 'punk' and that was how she wanted to look. I know it is a fashion statement and will change but still it did bother me. I told her that any future piercings and changes in hair color should be discussed with us and should not be taken upon herself to decide...that until she was 21 her body and head of hair belonged to ME!! :D

I had gotten a phone call from one of Erin's good friend's mom. She had answered the phone and I picked up the extension and conversed. I told the mom that Erin was home and we were glad and commented on how her son was such a great friend to Erin. Her son is very protective of Erin and Erin when first hospitalized shared with me how this friend was upset with her BF (who he doesn't get along with) because he thought the reason Erin was hospitalized was because of the BF. I told the mom that Erin had an imbalance that was making it difficult to get through these turbulant years and with the help of meds and therapy would have some assistance in getting through them. I went on to explain that Erin's hospitalization was nobody's fault, not even the BF's, and that perhaps she could work this through with her son with what I was sharing with her. I went on to share with her that I didn't particularly care for the BF and all I could do as a mom was "pray him our of her life". She shared with me that she has been there with her older daughter who cut (I was not aware of this) and that she was there as a form of support if I should need it. WE hung up and shortly after Erin came down after talking with friends and having them act as middlemen to get the BF to further admit he was mad at her and interested in another girl. (Don't you just love all of this drama!!??!! :rolleyes:) I commented on how she should confront her BF on her own not only because it was playing games to get the info but because it would give her more power to do so. I told her I knew that it was a hard thing to do but that she would feel so much better doing it as she discussed with the social worker when telling him what she planned to do. I try to keep all the drama down as much as possible which I feel only leads to more stress in my daughter's life!!

Well...later on Erin calls her BF and tells me that they talked. She informs us that he is mad at her because of things we said to his mom and that my husband just barged into their house. Well....the things the BF said were blatant lies or severely twisted facts....I did talk to his mom when she wanted her son to visit Erin while hospitalized and when I explained that visiting was for parents only and that friends could be brought in with the parent to visit once a ground's pass was issued we would be happy to pick her son up when that time came. I did express my concerns about Erin's well being and brought up how glad I was that her son was there to support Erin when in an IM we had found he stated in response to her thinking about suicide/cutting that he didn't want her to do that and to please call him if she ever thought of hurting herself. I also shared with her my concerns in the same IM of them discussing wanting to be intimate sometime in the near future and my concerns to how that would emotionally affect Erin. I told her that because of that knowledge that I needed to as a mom be assurred close supervision and that when they saw one another that I needed it to be on my turf so that I could be on top of things. I told her if she needed access to the IM I would be happy to provide it. She thanked me and agreed to my concerns. We did make a stop off to their home on the way to the hospital because she had called us back inquiring about visits to Erin with her son....Erin had called us on the cell phone in route asking for them to come with us and that her BF indicated that he & his mom could come a few days later when a ground's pass had yet to be issued. My husband stopped by and knocked on the door and was invited in by the grandfather. He made it clear to the BF's mom that visiting was for parents only at that point in time and that WE would be in touch with them as soon as we felt it was time for her BF to see Erin and that WE would pick him up to do so since he would have to accompany us. The mom understood and we went on to visit Erin.

Erin brought up to me that she had heard my entire conversation with her friend's mom and how I was a 'liar' about liking her BF and how she had heard me say that "I was praying him out of her life". I expressed my dispppointment in her listening in on my convo and how that was wrong and that everything I said was true, even that I did like her BF as I said because like everyone we have good attributes and bad ones. She went on to tell us how her BF said he was mad at her because we had told his mom that they were going to have "wild sex", that he was cutting himself too and that my husband had barged into the house without even knocking!! I told her that was untrue and very exaggerated and distorted and that although her BF protected her and advised her well when she wanted to hurt herself, we also saw him as somebody who was mad at her and planning to date somebody else when she needed his support the most and that could potentially hurt her. I told her that we still had no porblem with them seeing one another despite all of that. She informed us that she saw more good in him and intended on keeping him as her BF. I told her that that was fine and in time she would see that we as her parents loved her and supported her and that even it her BF and friends let her down that we would always be there for her. I told her that her BF had no reason to be mad at her or us, that we shared info with his mom that she needed to know as a mom and that there was no reason for anybody to be mad at anyone. I told her that she could do one of two things in this situation...that she could retaliate towards us because of her upsetment with her BF and continue to spend time with him only to find out that he may hurt her or that she could look at the facts of who really loved and cared about her and see the facts for what they truly are......that she deserves friends, family and a BF who care enough to support her through thick & thin in life.


(To be continued....sorry guys it's another long one ;) Please Hedge do not give up on ME!!)

(continued......thanks for the patience everyone ;) )

She went to bed early....I got up with her to get ready for school....she was quiet and withdrawn and I hugged her & told her that if she had a rough time with her BF to remember that she could call me & I would pick her up and to remember that she had other friends and family to rely upon when times got rough.

I know it is only the beginning....I know that she is shutdown and taking it out on me and that hopefully she will in time learn that talking it out will be the best thing and that she truly is special and that no other person makes her valuable....that she is special all by herself.

On a good note....she seems less sleepy on the meds. Ruth :wave: , I did look into your concerns. Spoke to the doctor further about adding the Celexa....she has her on the lowest dose feeling that she needs to take the edge off the Abilify to balance things off and in her opinion it is the safest antidepressant in terms of overall side effects to give to children even in comparision to the other meds that are not SSRI's.

When I presented the fact that in research I saw that no Bipolar was said to be something you could "outgrow" she explained that Erin is not diagnosed with any bipolar, that the basic atrributes and traits observed lean towards the treatment of a what they would characterize as a "mild bipolar I" but that Erin is not diagnosed as being bipolar at all. She said that druing the adoloescent period when teens like Erin present with the moods, symptoms and traits as Erin demonstrates....that with this specific treatment they do well in conjunction with psychotherapy to resolve the conficts and acquire the tools and coping mechanisms to transition into young adulthood and eventually be able to do so without the use of meds. That allowed me to understand things a little bit better and hope it helps you out too in being able to better understand things as the doctor sees them.

Also...when Erin had a day pass with us 2 days ago (one day after the Celexa was introduced and Abilify was increased) she complained of facial twitching which really concerned me. I discussed my fears of the tardia diskinesia (see I have already did my research ;) ) and how I feared that Erin was demonstrating that. She told me with the dose she had put Erin on, it was not of concern and that when the meds are trying to level off that this was often seen and that the meds would not be increased any further and that this should subside. I told her about the loss of appetite, tiredness and nausea. She said that there was a stomach virus on the unit, that Erin's roommate had it and that the nausea was most likely attributed to that in addition to the meds needing time to level off. She expected things to improve significantly over the next few weeks and to feel free to call her with any further concerns. Overall, Ruth I am very impressed with the care and explanations offered by the staff and doctor. I know that this is all going to take alot of time and something that will not be resolved overnight.

As usual, Goody's life is never dull and I learned that my brother has been admitted to the hospital and I am awaiting news on that. They may have to airlift him to another hospital and I will yet be on another board to check into that, although his disorder is quite rare.

Well that's enough for anyone to digest....I apologize for the length of the posts but they do describe the situation as it is and hopefully some here could see more of what is going on from the experience of being there than I can only just going through it myself.

And Ruth :wave:....it would be an honor to meet your mom, as you said, she would definitely be the one who could advise me the most....however, you are a great one to stand in proxy!! And I am truly blessed!!! :angel:

Thanks all.....Goody :angel:

Hey there, glad things are working out, sounds like you are handling everything well. While your daughter wants to blame you for the boyfriend being mad and interested in another girl, ultimately we both know that this is typical behavior for teen boys; they don't have permanent girlfriend/wife on their minds at this age and other girls with less problems than your daughter will start looking pretty attractive to any guy, so we can't blame the boyfriend for being normal here.

He might be good for her or if the going gets tough he might not be, he could be in love or not, who knows really, right? But ultimately if they break up or he sees other girls, it will be because he WANTS to, not because you or your husband did something to cause it!!

Although you have concerns about him (I think perhaps the other friend who is suspicious of the BF might not be too far off base either), the only thing you can do is wait it out, it will run it's course. He most likely will end up seeing other girls it sounds like. But if you embrace him as someone important to your daughter, keep your concerns to yourself, the result will be that your daughter cannot blame you at all if he strays....because if he does disappoint her, she might try to blame you.

I guess that's easier than thinking she couldn't hang on to him.....but that's how it goes, not many settle down to one person in their teens anymore so it's not a big deal, it's just reality.

I'd also watch out for that twitching! Although the docs seem to know their stuff (glad they haven't dxed her with Bipolar), they seem oblivious to the fact that some people are extra sensitive to medications; that even smaller dosages can, in a few people, cause the side effects that usually only happen on larger doses.

So just watch it, perhaps it won't amount to anything but better safe than sorry when it comes to tics and abnormal movements since some either disappear after drug discontinuation or some remain permanent. Tardive dyskinesia is the worst end of the spectrum but things like permanent tics are no fun either.

Sounds like you've got good docs there but they are still only human and things can happen even when they shouldn't.

Thanks Jennita for the words of encouragement. :angel:

Well we're on day #2 home and things are somewhat evening out. It's Erin's second day back to school and things seem to be going okay....we are somewhat tolerating her sulleness chalking it up to readjusting to responsibilities and the meds that she is on that are still leveling off. She said that she almost fell asleep in three of her classes and that the social worked suggested that we give the meds in the morning since Erin has had some trouble sleeping at night and is dragging during the day. I want to give it a little time before doing that....we see the psychiatrist on the 15th and will discuss that with him when we do.

Yesterday she came home from school somewhat quiet....when asked about her day she told me that she told her teachers and friends that she was in the hospital without elaborating on it and that she was doing okay. As far as the BF, she said that he was absent but showed up at the school at the end of the day and they spoke....she said that she told him that he should break up with her and that she didn't want to break up with him. Funny how my husband & I both reacted the same way to that information when she told us each separately. I asked her why she would want it that way, that if he were in the wrong that she should break up with him and by having him break up with her it almost seemed as if she were blaming herself for the situation. She seemed to not want to go into it anymore than saying that she might have regrets if she did that. A few months back she tried going out with a boy who is her best friend and that didn't work out....she broke up with him and seems to have regrets ever since. I brought that up and pointed out the difference of how she may have regrets because the first guy is a nice guy who did nothing wrong....it just was one of those things that she realized if they wnet on as a BF/GF they would lose their friendship and that wasn't such a bad decision but in this case with the present BF if he were not treating her right and making her feel badly towards herself in anyway that she shouldn't haver any regrets in breaking up with him because she would be doing what was right for her. As far as this mom is concerned this BF/GF stuff is way too much to have at this age and only adds to her already overflowing emotional plate. I am trying to make her see this and hope in time with my gentle prodding that she will begin to see this for herself.

She went over a girfriend's house for her birthday to have pizza and cake. Upon picking Erin up I saw that she was happily engaging in conversation but somewhat tired. the friend suggested that they take some kickboxing lessons together starting next week which I encouraged as well. Erin had taken karate but since we moved despite my persuasion did not sign up for a class in our new area. She seemed interested in the kickboxing and I thought that would be a great way of venting some of her frustrations and get her physically challenged once again since she is not involved in any school sports. She has exppressed an interest in trying out for the softball team in the Spring which I am happy about as well.

I am relieved to say that there have been no more twitching episodes as of yesterday and that this morning she reported that she didn't have any probelms with sleep. This will be day #3 of being on both meds at full doses and we seem to be doing okay. Erin is actively back to school and wants to attend her voice lesson that is scheduled this afternoon following school.

And so time will tell.....we are awaiting a call from a psychologist to see if he can accommodate Erin ASAP. The social worker at the hospital has a call into him and hopefully we will be hearing back on that soon. Whether Erin is a true bipolar, only time will tell. I just know that with support and the wonderful people here we will be able to face whatever may come our way. ;)

For now it is a readjustment as a family and we are trying to catch up on things that were placed on the back burner while we drifted through the week and at the same time trying to keep the stress levels down as much as possible to facilitate Erin's transition back into a family, school and social life.

Thanks for listening and for the abundant amount of support. I couldn't have done it without you guys.

~ Goody :wave:

Dear Goody2shuz....hope I'll get this letter typed in properly. It's the first time I've put a message on the site. So forgive me if I mess up please! My heart goes out to you. My daughter "Ruth" told me about your difficulties. I feel quite inadequate to truly help you because every illness is different and we all handle these problems in ways that seem best to us. For one thing, I think it remains to be seen whether your daughter is bipolar or not. Time will tell and you'll need to be watchful. She has many symptoms that Ruth had. Ruth started her illness at around the age of 13 and went many, many years without a real diagnosis. She was on a number of different medications over the years and had numerous hospitalizations. We were alternately stressed, worried, anxious, angry about side effects of the meds and her various behaviors! She would miss large chunks of time out of school because of her illness and then, when she was well enough to return, would again be near the top of her class and had returned to being the delightful girl we had known. It was devestating to my husband and I when she would again became either depressed or manic and the cycle was repeated. This whole situation was difficult for our whole family and, worst of all, there were no assurances that Ruth would ever have the life she deserved to have. This was all happening at a time when young people were not easily diagnosed as bipolar, especially in this country. When our new family physician saw her for the first time as she came out of a depression into a manic state (talking fast, pacing, out of touch with reality in many ways) he immediately told us that he felt she was bipolar, the first time in all the years of her illness that we had heard that diagnosis for her! She was started on lithium and 10 days later was discharged from the hospital, never to return there again or, for that matter, to need psychiatric attention. In a true bipolar condition, as I understand it, there is not a correct balance of chemicals in the brain and this is where the use of proper medication comes in. In your daughter's case it may be too early to know for sure what is going on. So I would take a deep breath, take good care of yourself and your whole family, stand back a bit and stay as calm and supportive as you can. I'd back off from being too involved in your daughter's activities, including boyfriends, etc. Let her know that you trust her to make good decisions and that things will get better. There's sometimes a fine line between being supportive and always there for her and her learning from her own mistakes. Hopefully with time and proper treatment she'll do a better job of decision making. I can't remember if I read that she'd having one on one sessions with her psychiatrist..Is that right? Or is the whole family involved in the counseling. I hate to have to say that counseling for Ruth, with or without us, was not that successful. She is truly bipolar and lithium is her lifeline. She is very knowledgeable about her disorder and very consistent in taking her meds and staying in good condition. There are side effects to the lithium but she deals with those as necessary. She and I are close and I pray that things work out well for you. If Ruth and her Dad and I could go thru so many dark times over so many years and come out in such good shape it's possible for any of us. Hope I've helped a bit. Try to keep your sense of humor and hope for the future. Will keep you in my prayers.

Ruth's Mom, Hoosiernjv

Well Lordy be, this has got to be the most wonderful thing that has ever come my way, a chance to meet my cybertwin's mom!!! :bouncing: Oh I guess that gives me the privelege of calling you mom too!!! :wave: It's by far the most wonderful thing that has ever happened, that is, besides meeting Ruth in person. :wave: (It use to be Harrison Ford but I'd gladly give him up to meet the two of you ;) ) And the way you just popped in here to talk to me, well just let's say that this is truly one of life's blessings coming Goody's way!!! :angel:

Thank you so much for your kind words of support....as you so accurately described this is such a scary and stressful time for our family not knowing what to expect next. It IS scary having Erin on these meds wondering if we are doing the right thing by her but if it will keep her safe from bringing harm to herself, I am open to anything that will keep her healthy & safe.

We have her back home with us and are readjusting to family life. She is resiliant, as most kids are, in the sense of already being back in school as well as all activities. We seem to be on a "walking on eggshells" phase of getting back into the swing of things but I have determined that we are over the grace period and back to treating Erin as a responsible member of our family with some emotional limitations in place. She has been better in terms of mood and family interactions which I believe is good in terms of the meds. She is still adjusting to them.....the facial ticks are gone {thank God :) } and other than some tiredness we are doing well. I am still awaiting a call from the social worker in terms of what therapist he has lined up for Erin to see. We did meet with a social worker while Erin was hospitalized as a family and individually as her parents as well. Erin also met with him one on one and attended group therapy sessions throughout the week. We benefited greatly from these sessions and were provided with alot of information on how to best support Erin through all that is going on. We expect that we will need further support as her parents....for now I will come here but if need be we may seek out professional support as well since we saw how well a few sessions helped us throughout her hospitali stay. We definitely saw how the therapy helped Erin, and unlike Ruth, she commented on how much she liked the social worker and what he helped her to see. The biggest thing he made her see is her impulsivity and how that leads to unpleasant consequences and possible danger in her life. He explained that the meds would somewhat help her with this but that she needed to work on that as well by first realizing that she does alot of things without giving it much thought and by recognizing this she could change that by thinking about the consequences first before doing something.

I know that although we do not have a clear diagnosis on Erin, that the doctor is treating her symptoms as a mild Bipolar I without the diagnosis. She says that there are alot of adolescents presenting with this type of behavior that is very mild in terms of bipolar but needs to be treated nonetheless. I was told that this would be 'temporary' which somewhat relieved me and gave me hope. I know that this is not a sure thing and we intentd to keep a close eye on things and time will tell how things will be. However, I am sure of one thing in this life....that God places people in our lives to remind us that we are not alone and your wonderful daughter is one of those people to me. When we first met here on HB we discovered that we were joined in heart & soul. Never quite questioning that but feeling a unique connection. And when faced with Erin's hospitalization this week I knew who would help me through it the most and that He had brought her into my life to be there for me at such a time!! And to have her mom available to support me in such a wonderful way.....well how can you count so many blessings in a day???

I thank you for taking the time to come and hold my hand....with you & Ruth I am able to stand and know that He has not left me alone. Our family thanks you for being here in our time of need and for reminding us that in this world we are never alone!! :angel: I know it wasn't easy for you to come here and share such a difficult time in your life. By doing so you have brought me such comfort knowing that Erin & I have the same chance of having as wonderful a mother-daughter relationship as you & Ruth do despite all the hardships faced. I take comfort in that knowledge knowing that even if Erin progresses to a diagnosis of Bipolar, that we will be okay. Thank you for that.

I will keep you posted as to Erin's progress....for now we are in a holding pattern not quite ready for takeoff but taxiing down the runway of life knowing that our time to take flight will eventually come. And the destination may change but still we know, that no matter what, there's only one way we will go with the help of others and that is UP!!! :bouncing:

Some ((((HUGS)))) to a very special mom ~ Goody :wave:

Hello again Goody. Thanks for your warm response to my letter. I'm truly not so much the computer oriented person that my daughter is. She and my wonderful son-in-law brought my
husband and I into the computer age. I don't get on here every day even but I was very
touched by your situation. It brought back a lot of memories for sure!! Ruthie has spoken of
you often, with great warmth. I'm glad she can be there for you, in a way that I cannot. I
imagine you two are of similar ages even. Will look forward to hearing how things go with you. Adolescence is traumatic by itself even without all you've been going thru. I was
wondering one thing. Does Erin get along well with her father and how has this been affecting him? Ruth's Dad was very torn up during her illness and felt helpless to do anything that would help. He was not a very open person to begin with and fathers often tend to have more difficulty deciding whether a behavior is really due to a mental or emotional illness. He was always supportive but I remember one time that he told me he felt she probably just needed a good spanking to help her settle down! And this from a man who seldom laid a hand on our children! And he was confused because he knew that Ruth was a quiet, caring child before exhibiting behaviors that he could not understand. One thing I forgot to add in my previous letter....if you haven't already done so, get a small not***** and keep a concise chronological record of your daughter's behaviors, dates of meds started and ended, side effects to meds, testing done, names of doctor's she's seen, etc. If her illness is short-lived it will be great but if other things happen in the years ahead it will be good to have a record that you can refer to. Best always, Ruthie's Mom

Hi, Ruthie's Mom :wave: Just like Ruth to get you to the cyberworld....I wish I could even get my mom to use a mouse, we tried that and I think we had one of our very first fights. :D Anyway, I am still so touched that you are able to be here for me. Thanks Ruth :wave:

Yes Ruth and I are of similar ages....I am 46 I think that would make her my older sis ;) ....we often wonder how it could be possible to be twins and have 6 years difference.....but in His world that is definitely a possibility. I am sure that when He was creating souls ours was split in two!!! As far as adolescence goes I have had great help and assistance from Ruth who has taken each of my girls under her wing and somehow co-parented with me while in cyberspace. While here on HB her & I share not only a soul but the same thoughts, values, morals and thinking so I have learned to trust her and she offers such wonderful advice. I know that Ruth & I value our time here spent helping others and see it as a wonderful place to seek help as well.

That being said....I love the suggestion of keeping a record of Erin's moods, meds, side effects, treatments, doctors seen, and hospitalizations. I have already started one and intend to keep up with it.

As far as Erin and her dad, they are quite close and generally get along well. My husband is calm and holds things in generally to himself. The change in Erin's behavior and moods led to more arguments between them....once she was hospitalized and they were speaking about Bipolar he was quite upset. He was paler and looked so worried and drained. Men seem to deal with stress in a much different way. I cried with my mom, my friends, and with him. He stayed strong but during grace when Erin was hospitalized he added a special prayer which was so unusual but didn't go unanswered because the very next day we received a phone call from our daughter and the meds seemed to be kicking in and she was more herself.

What we see in Erin is an emotional sensitvity that when triggered leads to agitation, frustration and anger. It is also something that when overwhelmed leads to destructive tendencies such as cutting and thoughts of hurting herself. We are hoping with the meds and therapy she will be helped through this time in her life. In time and with watchful eyes we will learn if it is more than a 'temporary' thing. I just know that for now we need to take one day at a time.

You say that you see alot of symptoms in Erin that Ruth had. Please tell me what they are. This may help me to look for things that I should be looking out for that would determine whether Erin is a true Bipolar or just possesses some traits if the disorder. Also....how did Ruth's self esteem seem at the time??? Erin seems to show signs of not being good enough for others, to the point of her hair not being styled good enough, clothes not looking good etc.

Again.....thank you so much for you support. And a big thanks to Ruth for sending you my way. :wave:

(((HUGS))) ~ Goody :angel:

First of all let me introduce myself a little and let you know my qualifications. I am 28 year old mother of 5 children ages 10, 6, 3, 2 and 1 month old. I have been married 10 years to my high school sweet heart who has bipolar disorder. I was a very difficult teen who was also put into a mental hospital for a week at age 16 due to a bad medical doctor. I totally feel for you and hate to say I put my mom through the same kind of stress' and sadness that your daughter is putting you through. What is even crazier is that I was always super close to my mom until I was about 15 years old and decided I was grown up and wanted to make my own "poor" decisions. Thank God my mom put me on birth control at 16 years old or I would have been a mother way before I was ready. I also though home was the worst place to be and said I wanted to go to a group home or be adopted. I apoligize to my mom all the time now, she never deserved that and I never meant to hurt her. I would run away every time she said I could not go out and then she would try to punish me and I would run again. You are doing nothing wrong please realize this and believe me if you continue to stress how much you love her she will grow up to know you were a wonderful mom, like my mom. Anyway, being that teen in the past I am telling you it is nothing you are doing. The thing that stuck out a lot to me in your posting was that her appetite increased a lot. Is she loosing weight? I was seeing a medical doctor who could not diagnose me with anything but I had hyperthyroidism that was making me go crazy. Symptoms were talking fast, shaking hands, weight loss, being very hungry, diarrea, weight loss, sweating, dilusions etc.
I would have her tested just to rule that out. Oh and I made friends in the mental hospital too and begged my mom to get me out. After a weej of being misdiagnosed with clinical depression and refusing medication myself they had me see a medical doctor who diagnosed me.

Ok here is what I know about bipolar disorder. If she is bipolar in order for her to have a good quality of life she needs her medication. DO not let them put her on Zyprexa. Lithium works well for most. Most bipolar people go through super happy phases which they talk fast, participate in risky behaviors like sex, unsafe driving, drinking, drugs, spending too much money etc. They will also stay up all night and not tire like most people would. They come up with a lot of ideas and are quite creative. They think nothing could go wrong and they think nothing is wrong with them. Then there is a depressed time where they sleep, get irratated with anything (even the smallest things), they fight and may become violent. I told my husband he was like a time bomb. This is usually when they feel suicidal and seem to think everyone is out to get them even the people that love them. Not paranoid just for example when there is traffic or a red light my husband will say,"why does this always happen when I need to go somewhere" like it happened because someone knew he had to go somewhere. He would get mad when I would say something was wrong with him like I was cursing him with something or wanted him to be sick. Bipolar disorder is usually misdiagnosed for depression since no one goes to the doctor when they are feeling good/manic. My husband was happy and felt set free when he was diagnosed and he does well as long as he takes his medication. Bipolar disorder can be genetic or triggered by a stressful or tramatic time in life. Denial is the worst thing you can do for her. I would say have the rule out hyperthyroidism and get a second opinion about the bipolar disorder. Make sure you are there for the evaluation since she will probably say everything is perfect and nothing is wrong. If she is diagnosed with bipolar disorder make sure she has her medication daily you will notice positive changes rather quickly. Denial or prayer will not make it go away. Hope this helps and please keep your head up and realize that it is not your fault.

Hi, Cmartin :wave: Thank you for dropping by and especially for sharing your situation with me. Just to alleviate your concerns we did first take my daughter to her Pediatrician (who has known her since birth) and she fullly examined her and did bloodwork which included thyroid studies which turned out to be just fine. The only thing off was her cholesterol level which was on the high side and we were asked to try to make some changes in diet & follow up in another year to recheck that. So we can definitely rule out any involvement with the thyroid.

I must say that some of the symptoms that you describe in regard to your husband sound like behaviors demonstrated by both of my daughters which somewhat concerns me. Since having Erin evaluated, and knowing that we went through similar behaviors with my older daughter at the same age who continues to act rather impusively, I am concerned that we may be overlooking something with my older daughter as well. She has driven her car on beaches as a new driver requiring towing. She smokes cigarettes and admitted to smoking marijuana as well.....had drinking parties at our home while we were out and complains when she is punished claiming that everyone does things like she does never seeming to apologize for her actions. Most recently she cut school forging notes and had accumulated enough absences to be expelled but because of her high grades was given a second chance. She seems to push it to the limit.....she is awaiting acceptance into a college of her choice and does things like this....it is really alarming that she does. She seems to never see the wrong in her actions and quite frankly her lack of concern really frightens me!! She seems to live in the fast lane, feels she should have no rules whatsoever and that she wants to live her life as if it is her last....and to be honest I worry that that day may come sooner than we all would like if she continues to live this way. This is all coming from a girl who has honor roll grades and is in the top 5% of her class.

My younger daughter sems to be following in her tracks but in a more self destructive way because she has a history of cutting and has attempted suicide once and has admitted this hospitalization to having continuous thoughts of ways to end her life. That was our greatest concern.

I am not in denial and consider what my daughter is going through to be something that obviously needs to be looked at. My older daughter has been living with my brother out of state to increase her chances of getting into a college in that state....we had problems with her behavior when she lived with us which are now evidenced while living with my brother so I am thinking of having her evaluated once she graduates high school and prior to her starting college. Alot of what she does and has done seems to be rather impulsive and sometimes dangerous in my opinion with very little thought as to the consequences. She has been lucky and seems to think that she will not get caught and that these things will not ruin her life.....that she is only having fun. Part of me thinks that this is normal teenage thinking and lack of judgement and another thinks that it is more than that.

My younger daughter seems tired on the meds and her overall attitude is about her needs......she has been on the phone with friends ever since getting home and has a plan a minute. She seems to be happy so long as she is busy, when she is not she is mopey and slightly argumentative wanting more. That is our biggest battle.....she never seems happy with what she gets....it always has to be more. Today she had work to make up for school which was like pulling teeth to get her to do...we told her that she could have a few friends over if she finished some of her schoolwork that piled up from being in the hospital. She did it and now wants more than the amount of friends over that we discussed.....we said 4 and now she wants 4 more. This is what happened prior to her hosptalization and even on the meds it seems to be returning to the same pattern. One improvement is that she doesn't get to the point of yelling and saying that things are unfair and wanting to live somewhere else when she doesn't get her way. I still don't know if this is a high teen rebellion and wanting things to be her way or something leaning towards bipolar....it is exptremely frustrating not knowing. I really do not see any drastic changes in her on the meds....she it sleepier and not as agitated......but still seems to want things to be her way. Grrrrrrrr..........this is something that I guess time will tell!!!

I would appreciate any more input.....I just hate not knowing what is going on......we are sort of in LIMBO and I really don't like being there.

The good thing is I heard from the psychiatric social worker who will be meeting with Erin on a weekly basis starting this Thursday lined up by the hospital social worker. I think that Erin needs that to keep her talking about some of the social issues that seem to add stress to her life. I cannot stifle her social life...I know it is important, however sometimes I think that it adds too much stress to her life and as much as I try to point that out to her the more she fights it!! It certainly doesn't help that her circle of friends do not get along with her BF. That in itself is enough to stress anybody out!!

Thanks for listening, everyone!!!

And Ruth.....thanks for sending a few more angels my way!!! :wave:

~ Goody :angel:

I really believe that your daughter does have bipolar disorder and it takes a while to get the medication right but once it is then you have the battle of making the bipolar person take it regularly. We constantly go through a battle of my husband feeling better while on the medication then thinking he can stop it. I used to just think my husband was mean or selfish, which he still sometimes is (he thinks everything and everyone revolves around him). He thinks everyone is thinking about him all the time. When he gets a traffic ticket he thinks it was because of race or some other personal attack rather than taking responsibility. The thing about waiting for the college of her choice only seems a lot like my husbands his way or no way policy he seems to live by. He window shops for months before the checks arrive so the money is gone before it comes. Bipolar disorder also cause impulsive behaviors, what feels good is right to the bipolar person. He never uses common sense or a thought process. There are many people with bipolar disorder, more than you would think, listen to the news almost everday you hear about it on a high speed police chase, bank robbery, a missing person or the sniper attacks a few years ago (the man was bipolar). The girl Kobe Bryant cheated on his wife with has Bipolar Disorder. Get both your daughters help now because the risky behaviors can end there lives much too early and hurt all there future relationships with you, a future spouse or children. I am so glad your girls have a supportive caring mom like you or things could be much worse. Make sure to remember when they grow up they will see things differently than they see things now.

Hey Goody,

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you.

I'll be brief with this one.

YES, i also think Erin is bipolar. She is ALSO a teenager.

Things seem to have settled down for the time being so I would suggest a three month review with regards to a formal diagnosis. Stick with the current meds. Go ahead with some psycotherapy, it rarely hurts.

Somtimes it is easy to compare kids from the same family. I used to with mine. Try to view HER as an individual as well as her problems.

Hope it helps, what little there is of my posting,

Hedge ~ :cool:

Hedge ~ thanks for taking the time to lend your support. I cannot tell you how much it means to me as short & sweet you are, you do make perfect sense.

I guess as a mom when we give birth we see this image of perfection and as a mother wish only it to remain that way. I can't help but fear not doing the right thing for Erin. To treat her with meds for Bipolar and she is not Bipolar greatly disturbs me. Like you said, she IS a teenager but it is more extreme in Erin's case with the cutting and one suicidal attempt and admitted thoughts. My worry is that the times are so very different....the lyrics to the music that she listens to seems to portray self destruction and violence. Even songs I listened to like "The First Cut Is The Deepest" had a totally different meaning. It is a song that many cutters cut to today!!

When Erin first cut and I asked her why she did so she said that alot of the girls at school were doing it when they upset with something. That still sticks with me. Just a few weeks ago I was a Music video she was watching where the artist clealy had scars all over her arms from cutting as if it's cool. So how much of this all is what she sees going on in society as a fad and truly Bipolar???? I know that time is going to tell and that what has gone on these past few years clearly indicates that I need to lean more towards caution and that is why I have no problems with the meds. I agree that in the next few months to a year we will see and get better signs as to where things will go with our daughter(s).

While I normally do not compare my daughters.....it is apparent that most of what Erin is going through was demonstrated by my older daughter who continues to live impulsively and cause us worry. That is the only reason I brought that up....because if Erin IS Bipolar, there is a good chance that my older daughter is as well. Ruth knows what has occurred with my older daughter, Kait, and will probably know, as a few others who know me here, what my concerns are. The way I see things is either both of my daughters are rebellious teens and the younger requires some meds to assist her through harming herself during this period of time OR both my daughters are Bipolar. The similarities are soooo apparent. A part of me also thinks that the younger daughter learned the tools of maniputations from her older sister so I hope you understand where my concerns are all coming from.

I realize as you have already said, that time will tell me what I need to know.....my concern for my older daughter is that she will be starting her first year of college this fall and will be away. And if she IS Bipolar and I do not have her properly treated/evaluated then I will be feeling as if I have failed her. And if I do have her evaluated and they decide to put her on meds I will have the constant worry of her partying and causing more harm to herself. What do I do about that??? My window of opportunity to have her evaluated is this summer after she graduates high school (she is residing in a different state with my brother to pursue the college that she wants to get into). As I already said, she continues to make poor decisions....impulsive ones which almost had my brother sending her back my way but we decided as a family that she needs to get over this last hurdle to graduate high school. She is almost there and when told that perhaps she should come home and not worry about graduating she grows upset and says that she has worked hard to get where she is and made sacrifices and although she has made her mistakes that everybody does.....it's senior year and this is what everybody does. I am inclined to agree to a point which leads me back to knowing that time will tell and somehow throughout that time I will know what to do.

Thanks everyone for holding my hand along the way ~ Goody :angel:

Dear Goody...just, hopefully, a short note before I get on with the day. You certainly can be thankful to have such good friends who will give of themselves as to advice and their experiences. Here, in rapid fashion, are my thoughts....I remain unsure as to a correct diagnosis of your daughter's problems. I see many behaviors that sound bi-polar to me, but certainly not all. She is of course a teenager and many of these behaviors I've seen in my own Grandchildren from time to time! BUT, Erin's probablems have resulted in a hospitalization and you might have months or years before things settle down. Ruth's bipolar disease ran quite a lengthy course until her correct diagnosis and the start of her lithium. The symptoms I saw in your discription of Erin that Ruth also exhibited were agitation when manic, depression when not manic, and acting out in dangerous ways (but remember that normal teenage behavior can include lots of acting out!) She did not cut. I have a 50 year old friend who's 15 year old daughter exhibited many of your daughter's symptoms recently. She was angry, totally against rules, wanted to leave home, wrote dreadfull things in her journal and left it open for her Mom to see, etc. etc. When she started the cutting it precipitated psychiatric intervention, a mild med of some sort and family counseling, which continues to this day with my friend and her daughter. For a time, early on, the daughter went to live with an aunt and her Mom stayed in close touch. Within a couple of weeks the daughter wanted to come home again. Things have gradually resolved, with the Mom and the daughter both learning to compromise. I guess every situation is different and outcomes are different but the good thing about the advice that is given to you Goody is that some of it may trigger a response in you that sounds helpful. When you mentioned in an earlier message that you were fighting the bipolar diagnosis, just stay informed of ALL posibilities so you have your eyes open and are not closed off from any possibility. I see your daughter exhibiting both strong needs for more independence (such as the new earring piercing episode!) while knowing that she has even greater dependence on you now because of her present illness! Very tough for both of you! Has it been suggested that you and she have some joint counseling? Might be helpful. About her boyfriend. I remember sometimes feeling that Ruth's involvement with boyfriends was just a roadblock when there so many other things to deal with, but truly this is a part of Erin's current emotional state and probably will continue to be. Just keep on dealing with it in as calm a fashion as you can manage. You asked about Ruth's self-esteem thru this. This is worth another whole message probably! I wish she'd come on here and address this. She was so sick during such a large part of her teen years that it took a long, long time for her to gain the strong sense of herself that she has today. I honestly can say that she has very strong integrity, has a strong sense of herself and is a warm, loving, caring person. I'm not sure how that all came about, because she had many lost years in her early life. For my part, thru it all her Dad and I tried our best to get the best possible care for her that we could, let her know we loved her and were always there for her. When she got into difficulties with her illness we were there to pick her up and help in any way she needed help. Our prayers were answered when she was correctly diagnosed and could finally make a good life for herself. Two additional questions before I leave what was to be a "short note" Ha!! Do you have bipolar disease, depression, or other mental disorder in your family histories? Also, how is your brother, who you said was ill? Hugs, Ruthie's Mom

The thing you said about her friends cutting so she did shows impulsive behavior, right? As a troubled teen if my friends were doing it I would have personally thought about it and quickly said, "I'm not doing that". Wouldn't you? My husband also seemed like a follower when he was not on medication. One day while we were married he went out with a couple of friends and came back the following afternoon. I felt sick, but he didn't seem to care how I felt. His thing when I was mad is to act mad at me so I start apoligizing to him...for nothing but when someone is mad I want them to feel better. People with bipolar disorder are also known to be very manipulative. Later as a wife trying to get a window into my ill husbands life I looked through his wallet and pockets (since he does not communicate without getting mad since he feels attacked). He had mexican money in his pocket and reciepts in spanish. He had went to mexico, with our only car at the time and left me at home with our daughters who were 4 and 1 year old at the time. I asked why he did that and he said because his friends wanted to go. I would have had the sense to either tell my friends I could not go or I would have at least called home and let my family know but he lives for now also not tomarrow or the future. That is why the family of the bipolar person usually needs counseling too. Before he was on his medication when we would argue he would drive off with the car almost sideways since he was driving so fast and out of control. That behavior made me scared to talk to him or disagree with anything he said. I felt like I was walking on broken glass or holding a time bomb. What you are looking at really does not seem like normal teenage rebellion since normal rebellion usually is not as dangerous. I am also not into medication I had 5 kids completley naturally...the last one 9 pounds! I also would not take anything for pain after and do not use tynenol or cold medicine at all. I would also be guarded about medicating my kids but bipolar people get a bad wrap because of things they can't control. It can be hereditary so it is possible that both your daughers can be bipolar. If it is left untreated it can progress to schizophrenia which is so much worse. My husband has a mild case and functions well with his jobs but when he gets off of his medication and things are going bad he wants to give up on everything. An example of that is when our house payment was going to be late because of bad choices he got on the phone to book a flight somewhere to leave his whole family when he had no money to pay for it. He also called the adoption agency to put our kids up for adoption. He blamed them...it is always someone elses fault, everything that goes wrong is someone elses fault not his. If the medication is stabilizing things at all there is a mental illness there or it would not help rebellion at all. Please make sure to get your older daughter evaluated and make sure they do not give them Zyprexa it does more harm than good. Good luck.

You certainly can be thankful to have such good friends who will give of themselves as to advice and their experiences. You can say that again, Ruthie's mom, and also be counted among them!!! ;)

Here, in rapid fashion, are my thoughts....I remain unsure as to a correct